Early-Meeting-to-identify

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Title	Early-Meeting-to-identify
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Source	Two versions, mj and dm
No. of MP3 files	possibly 3 = 30:26 + unknown + unknown
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Revision timestamp	20250617224003

To Do

Notes

Two versions, mj and dm

Tremendous white (black) noise.

Transcription

File 1

mj - 00:00

R. ... informal ?? I know everyone in here ?? are curious about ?? if we take one page? or one chapter of the book or one little lecture and give it, you’re not going to get a complete pictiure. There must be some effort on my part to guess at the points you might be willing? to hear about ?? say, have to know to some degree where we’re coming from

A lot of people have done a ?? of reading in esoteric matters, and other people have done none. I’m surprised at this at times with the early members of the group, that have been with the group for maybe a year [So this could be 1974 or so] They’ll say, “I came into the group and I had absolutely no reading, no previous reading. So I’m somewhat amazed that they stayed.

I look upon the work that we’re doing as a post-graduate course ?? first ever. It’s not just the first, ?? guy gets the first brush of spirituality and rushes out and joins a Zen group. ?? of Zen or ?? ?? maturity reached by joining groups and, joining religions and debunking them and getting disgusted, and trying to find something more to the center, more meaningful. And ...

01:47

So that we have people, as he said, [monitor?] from different levels who ?? find out what’s going on.

Now, what is our common denominator? We must have a common denominator. And the common denominator in all humanity? ?? of course the people here ?? but it’s also the common denominator is the truth. Everybody wants the truth. They may not always want it extended?, but they want the truth. They want the truth in the relative sense when they’re dealing, they’re buying groceries over the counter they want to ?? the poundage and the price. And they want the truth from their friends ?? And if they’re into philosophy they want the truth of philosophy.

But the thing is that, the strange thing when you get into the truth of philosophy, the individual colors it, that’s what he wants to believe. When he wants to know how many pounds are in a package, there’s no argument on what he means by pounds. But when you talk about truth philosophically, it immediately stirs up argument as to what the truth is. Some people say, “I don’t want any truth that is not this or that.” Like the party one time who said to me thgat he didn’t think that I was enlightened, because I didn’t believe in women’s lib. In other words, they put a qualification on enlightenment. You had to, as far as me believing in women’s lib – I would like to believe in male liberation; I think that they are the ones who are not liberated. But that’s neither here nor there; it doesn’t matter too much at this point.

03:31

But what does matter is that a person will take a mundane premise and associate it with a ?? sect, they’re not going, they’re not going to believe what you say unless you’re Asiatic, unless it’s an Asiatic religion. They’re not going to believe you if you expound a Christian doctrine. Why? Because the father was Christian, and if he wants? him? dad? we reject everything that dad stands for in the Christian religion.

And when I see this I discourage it. Because you basically cannot, in the final sense, ever understand the truth. You must become the truth. We do not learn the truth. We learn the truth only about the things that are in a changing world. We realize the physics and chemistry, we think we find chemical truths and that sort of thing, but even these things change. As I mentioned, the concept of phlogiston 1 with the concept of oxidation. They were quite convinced a couple hundred years ago or so that where was a substance such as phlogiston. No one dared to challenge it.

We were talking today about medicine: the doctors ten years ago put drugs on the market that today are considered obsolete. Protoplasm hasn’t changed, but the understanding of chemical reaction to protoplasm has changed. That truth of two years ago or ten years ago is no longer truth. But there is a truth that doesn’t change, and that’s that which is. the earth passes away, perhaps, even, ceases to be, but the truth remains. << so this is Kent State? – must find my article.

05:09

So we, I presume that everybody here is here for the truth. And possibly a good many are here with a, their own little hatful of reservations: “I’ll listen to the truth as long as he agrees with me.” And of course I maintain – I don’t even want the, I don’t want you to agree with me. I don’t see, coming with that angle, that I know something. You don’t know that. I’m just a redneck from West Virginia. But I would like to stir up your heads so you’ll do some thinking on your own at least.

05:50

But I do say that you have to, you have to start moving. You can’t just say, “Well, I like this business of reincarnation because it gives me another crack: I can waste this life, and I’ll be coming around again. Maybe the next time, I’ll drop acid – well, I’ll quit taking acid – and the next time it will be booze.” “So let’s experience. Let’s go into this big ?? experience. Be here now.” But immediately I say this is ?? who is here now. Let’s find out who is here now. And they talk about flowing. I say, “Where are you going? To the sewer? Or the cemetery?” So these clichés that we labor under, which we think so ?? the truth, are really nothing more than which some part of our head, some part of our mundane personality, wants to accept.

06:58

So you start to peel away this stuff. And if you continue, if you’ve got the courage to see it, as you see it to peel away – this is our system, not of postulating what truth is ahead of time. This is the error that has been made down through the ages. This is the reason we use the word Zen. I don’t say you have to be addicted strictly to Zen alone, but down through the ages people have postulated a God and then worked for 500 years to try to prove it. And [but] you can’t postulate and prove: you’ve got to go directly to that which is.

07:39

Obstacles

So what is the difference in what our concepts of truth are? And I find that, as soon as we embark upon a path of truth, as I said, we carry a little bit with us. But also we carry with us other common denominators. We all have these common denominators. And in the book I list them as “obstacles”.2 And I’m going to read them to you; that’s all I’ll read tonight, and the rest I’d like for you to ask questions, I’d like to answer questions.

But the obstacles – and I just put them down flatly in the book without too much explanation – there are obstacles of external nature, by external I mean outside of your body: visible, terrestrial life and planetary relationships. I recognize that it’s possible that a planetary relationship could be an obstacle or an advantage in spiritual growth. Invisible, or dimensions beyond our senses – now that’s outside the body, but they’re invisible, or dimensions beyond our senses.

08:44

Now these are not only obstacles to the truth, they’re obstacles to survival. A lot of people who are addicted to dope are not addicted to a chemical, they’re addicted to an entity. Call it Mescalito 3 if you wish, there’s a separate one for almost every trip that takes your energy. That is an energy loss, something takes, it’s a profit system involved, or the entity wouldn’t come back. They don’t obsess you just for the hell of it; they’re getting something every time they come back.

09:17

Now – obstacles of internal nature: The appetites, sex, security, food, pleasures other than sex, curiosity. These are obstacles. They’re necessary in their place, but these are also obstacles. Because I’ve heard people say that the only motivation they have in life is for sex. If you don’t have it you die. Of course my attitude is, when I have to live for that, let me die. Because I’m just then like a cow or a bull in the pasture field. I’m good for my services, and when? I’m? no longer serviceable, no value. And if that’s all a human being is, is a sex apparatus to keep a bunch of fertilizers on the face of the earth’s crust, why, I’m? not? interested?

10:14

Security: you go nuts over building a bigger mansion, then a bigger mansion, a bigger bank roll, and they become obstacles for spiritual work. Food: food is absolutely necessary, but ?? we become hogs. By food I’m including wine or whiskey, or just making a big thing out of it until we destroy our body [with] heart trouble, obesity. Pleasures other than sex: [here] I’m talking about the whole hedonistic trip, dope, even travel, gambling. Anything that takes up your time is an obstacle. Anything that becomes an obsession.

Curiosity: curiosity is a necessary, natural implant. Without curiosity the amoeba would not survive. At the same time, curiosity, endless curiosity leads us into one trap after another one. Unless we’re able to – and this is the whole secret of this system. The whole secret of this system beginning a new vector, reversing the vector of curiosity and desire, putting them in a direction of curiosity for things spiritual, or let’s say things absolute: absolute definitions. Curiosity for an absolute definition, as opposed to curiosity for better ways of mundane pleasure. Desire for the top ego as opposed to the little egos. The desire for survival in the absolute sense, [rather] than the desire for survival through children or survival day by day.

11:53

The other obstacles are the fears. You talk of ego, you hear a lot of talk in Zen about dropping egos. There are other things besides egos that have to be dropped: you have to surmount your fears. I just list three of them that are outstanding in spiritual work: fear of dying. Fear of dying may promote spiritual investigation; everybody wants the answer because they’re afraid of dying unresolved. But nevertheless, the very fear of dying causes you to grab and accept a faith, and cling to a blind belief that comforts rather than proves.

12:30

The fear of scorn or social harm. “Don’t join that outfit; those people are crackpots.” That’s ?? And this was prevalent when I was young. You had to sneak around and find your fellow philosophers. If they found out you were into esoteric philosophy you couldn’t get a job. They thought you were unstable and might undermine the business.

Fear of mental or spiritual harm: I still recognize this in people coming into the group today. I see it in their faces. They say, “Oh, there’s power there, be careful, be careful. You could be hoodwinked, you could be swindled, you could be taken, be had.”

13:10

Blocks

We go on to the blocks. And these blocks are written, they’re described by various authors, various books. Blocks to spiritual progress are the seven deadly sins – I use those rather loosely – that’s a Christian concept. The Six Catches that we find in DeRopp,4 a? different? breed? the? best? we? can? see? how they can block. Physical limitations; in other words, if you’ve got a brain tumor you can’t think, ?? ?? economic exigencies: if you’re too poor, you have to go out and find a job before you start ?? I don’t see too much spiritual progress in a man who winds up as a hobo, just going from meal to meal. He’s going to be concerned more with the next meal than he is with thinking. He may do some thinking in between, the only think is, he’s preempted? with family responsibilities.

14:08

I’ve jotted down here some rationalizations,5 forms of rationalization, that people use to avoid spiritual work. Now incidentally, I use this word “spiritual” loosely without any definition. And if? it? has? to? be? acceptable? in just a, a very general sense, without any other – I don’t pretend to explain, to define, to prove to you that there is such a thing as a spirit, so that this would be leading to a certain spirit, realization. What I say is you can’t even postulate that you have a soul or a spirit ?? factually. You have to retreat from the ridiculous, you have to retreat from manifest unproven dogmas. And of course when you use the word “spiritual” you immediately imply – that’s where people get snagged. Whenever you use the word “spiritual” they say, “Yes, I know all about God.” I’m not talking about God. God is another postulation. Spirituality is a postulation. But I’m using it loosely when I’m saying the search ?? ?? When I use the word spirituality, I could say better perhaps the search for self definition. But because it’s a common word, people pick it up with a general sense ?? ??

15:23

And one rationalization is that we will be able to do things better at a later date; it’s called procrastination. You know, “As soon as I get my first thousand in the bank, then I’ll come back to this.” That we will ride the tide of humanity into heaven. “I’m going where everybody else is going.” Well, I’m quite sure they all can’t go to the same place. If you don’t believe that, why, you get a job at a hospital and observe 200 people dying and watch their phenomenal? trip? at bedside, what they see? seek? as they die. You realize they’re going to different places. That social services or "good works" have spiritual gain. This is something that is permeating the ?? today. They’re imbibing? booze and taking dope and running out and pretending to change humanity. This is playing God, this is ?? ?? We don’t know what’s good for humanity ?? ?? sexuality? That the gods have ears. Meaning that we can pray and something’s going to hear us. The only thing that hears is you. That the gods have noses and eyes: Incense, displays, pretty pictures, churches. That positive thinking will make gods of us or lead us to liberation. All you have to do is hold your head a certain way

16:57

That the guru will save us. I can’t help you if you can’t help yourself.

That faith will save us. Faith is the enemy of mankind. It’s the ostrich with its head in the sand. Say, “I believe,” and I put my head in the sand, ?? ??

That spiritual paths can be evaluated by their popularity. “Everybody believes this. Nobody believes ib these little isolated philosophies. Go join a church, where there are 20,000 people belong. That means that you can vote on what the final definition is. People will get together and decide ?? ?? “Let’s vote and say we have a soul.” Don’t look for a soul, just vote it. Say, “We have a soul, ?? ?? it is.”

That we can "feel" our way alone. That’s intuition. You hear people say, “Well, I feel, I dig? politically? “ That we can do it with – everybody’s diggers? in? this? are different. Some of these diggers ?? ??

That we can do it with our omnipotent reason. Some guy comes up to my group and he says, a would-be psychologist, and he says, “We’re nothing but a bunch of conditioned reflexes. I’ve figured it out in my head. It’s logical.” We’re nothing but this, we’re nothing but that. [?] Even he impeccability of his logic is in question. We won’t? go? into that. But they like to think that they’re so smart, they’re going to do it with objective reasoning, with an objective means such as numerology or magic. ?? your ?? get ??

That God, (or Mr. X) will take care of everything. Put it all in his hands. Just trust. ?? ?? this good? attitude? This is a variation of the knight on the white horse: I’ll be rescued because God loves me.”

That our present belief wall be our final evaluation of Truth. In other words, if you get a little exultation and feel like you’re saved, you go out and you start rapping everybody on the head. You know, shouting, “Be saved.” You get down on your knees. Some idiot mailed us back one of out posters and told us to go? about? (to glorify?) Jesus. He found his salvation. All he has is a certain exultation – which maybe he needed. He might have really been a sick devil before that, and he was saved from being sick. It was the only thing that could hgave pulled him out of the dope. So he gets saved. But he doesn’t realize that it’s possible that he’ll even graduate from that. It’s like a kid in the second grade looking down his nose at the kid in the first grade, calling him green and immature. But he doesn’t realize that there’s something? somebody? ?? knows? but? him. So they don’t, they refuse to believe in spiritual work they can’t see ?? ?? In grade school you can see that they’re? there? In spiritual work you can’t see these rungs above you.

20:08

That everything else is hopeless or useless. This is another rationalization. This is the big one. He? believe? in? translate Watts into that.6 Of course, maybe Watts, Alan Watts didn’t apply? like this: “There’s no use doing anything.” This is sort of an offshoot of Be Here Now. But instead of being here now, they’re doing nothing now. That you can do absolutely nothing.

My belief is: Why move then? Why move? Why date a girl? Why eat?. See – what you’re doing, anything is useless or hopeless. So we cannot as organic beings take the philosophy of futility. We just don’t. We just don’t act like that between? ? ?? We still go about putting money in the bank, chattering? ?? It’s useless to try to do things, keep on doing things. We don’t observe? absurd? things sometimes, ?? ?? ??

21:11

header

So – now we go back and say, “Oh, what have we here today? What’s in the group today? I know what? some? of you are? have? Some of you have just come fresh from another ism. Maybe you’re still in it, looking? and comparing a little bit. We get people who are into various things. And they say, “Why do they [who?] hang onto something else? Well, first of all, I don’t want anybody to let loose of anything else until they’re ready. Generally you’re in movements because that’s your – that’s the vehicle that suits you the best. Your mind is more or less a ?? barometer of these things. Your mind will not take on voltage until it’s prepared for the voltage. This is one of the automatic thermostats, of whatever you call it, rheostats, that takes care of the voltage.

22:16

But yet, sometimes we’re locked into certain little groups because of – here’s a group that says, “Well, you can do this also.” And you talk to these people: “Well, why do you stay in this group?” “Well, because they don’t argue with the particular sex I’m into. Christianity argues with a particular sex act. So I joined such and such a religion.” The reason the religion doesn’t argue with it is that generally they emanate from India, and most of the ?? in India – India’s solution to the overpopulation is probably? homosexuality. So if they shut off all the homosexuals from the movement in India, they might have to close the doors. They might be the only people who can afford to pay the dues. So in a lot of situations, theology adjusts itself to politics? It’s a back-scratcher. It will not clash too violently with the status of the state to? exist?

23:24

But anyhow, we find, regardless, we find people who ?? for whatever reasons they are, they’ll reject a movement because that movement does not include an encouragement of their pet weakness, whatever that weakness is. Now I’m not saying that any form of physical form of outlet or pleasure is any more valid than nyone else at this time, I’m just saying that it’s an energy drain. Regardless, if it takes too much of your energy it’s going to inhibit what you’re doing. If you want to be a successful athlete you inhibit certain energy drains and you can build up your muscle.

But I don’t see too many gigantic bodies, real healthy bodies, real alert minds with people who are smoking half a dozen joints a day, or dropping pills every day. So you can’t do everything, and this is the thing we like to believe, that we can indulge in all forms of sex, do everything we wish, because modern psychology has voted these things as harmless. Just have fun and pay your taxes so the psychologists can be funded. And they say, “This is valid now, because we’ve been validated by the rubber-stamped authority. And we will not accept this philosophy or this particular ism, whatever it is that doesn’t give us this encouragement.

25:01

So each religion, this goes for each religion, you’ll find that there’s attraction, the variations of the Christian religion, just like Mormonism – how many people are followers of Mormonism because they thought it would give them a chance to have more than one wife? I never saw any great theological change in Mormonism, ?? group get into it. Of course, they don’t have the multiple marriages anymore. The big advantage today in Mormonism is the economy; they’re very thrifty people. But I’ve read parts of their Bible or their handbook or whatever it is, and I saw no great illumination, revelations beyond what you find in the Bible.

25:51

So, but regardless, this is the thing, there’s a motivation, for? a? lot? of?, there’s comfort. Do you want comfort or do you want to fight for the facts? If you want to be comfortable? Okay get comfortable. So I think if we, instead of arguing about all these things, each person casually [?] carefully examine their present path, it might expedite the graduation to the next step.

26:30

Now I’d like to, I’d like for you to ask [questions]. I know there’s a lot that you’d like to know what we’re doing. [sentence] As I said, I prefer to explain what we’re doing in terms of what we’re thinking, what our concepts are. Basically we don’t have dogmatic concepts as much as we have a challenge to retreat from whatever you’re thinking. Whatever you’re thinking, to evaluate it. This is the idea.

The only thing I challenge is belief. I just say, “Why?” Maybe replace? your ?? with doubt? But I still want to challenge why. And I’m not going to challenge any – we do that in confrontation – I’m not going to challenge your beliefs at this point. And I don’t particularly think it would say do us any good here for you to get into, just challenge just for the sake of argument wahat we’re doing here today. I’d like to turn this meeting over to an honest evaluation of what we’re doing here today. So that if you have question, you can compare it with, by questioning you can compare what you’ve been into up until today, your previous disciplines, and that way get a better idea, and also get? decisions ?? ?? So fire away. [silence] If you’re silent I’ll presume you know everything.

28:08

Q. Inaudible.

R. There is a system, but it was my own.

Q. Inaudible.

R. I didn’t learn this ...

Q. inaudible.

R. Right. I did not arrive at my experience through Zen. I only learned the language of transmission through Zen. But this, what I just read to you, is basically the things that I retreated from. I started off believing, several times. I started off with the faith of my ancestors; I was a Catholic, I believed to? pray, ?? lead? to? it was a maternal acceptance: I believed my mother and I believed what she believed. She couldn’t be wrong, when I was a child, so sometime or another I had to wean myself from that. And it was just a matter of retreating from first, by getting my foot in one pile of garbage after another, and I’d get away from it. I’d see another pile of garbage that looked a lot better and, that I thought was, more flowers in the garbage. I’d get into it and I’d follow a discipline for a period of time. I’d meditate and think, and I’d move on from there.

29:48

And I cursed the darkness. I looked for people who could teach me, tell me something, and I didn’t find any, to be quite honest with you. But I devised a system of retreating from his type of error, and that’s the system that we talk about today. I’m not addicted to Zen and I will not advise you to crawl? especially to Zen, the things that are coming out today, the books that are coming out on Zen. I fail to find anything solid in any of them. There are some of them that have good points, like Hubert Benoit’s Supreme Doctrine,7 but you’ll find that he tries to over-theorize, over-intellectualize something that is a basic process of just going inside. He says, in one book he writes, hee says, “Let go.” It isn’t a question of letting go. You can let go and fall off the ??

mj1 ends at 30:36

[break in tape]

File 2

mj2 start 00:00

... and not kid yourself. And if you can do that and dynamically keep it up, you will find the truth, no matter what religion you’re in. Of? course? as you get into it, you’ll see less and less value. Or you’ll see more and more meaning to certain things that are said, like Christian admonitions, “Seek and ye shall find.” >>> I seem to have done this already, lately. Very familiar, need to check. <<<

File 3

Footnotes

Url: place url here For access, send email to editors@direct-mind.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory

Albigen Papers, chapter 5, “Obstacles to Transcendental Effort.”

See Carlos Castaneda, The Teachings of Dun Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge, chapter 4: http://www.american-buddha.com/teach.don.juan.4.htm

Robert S. de Ropp, The Master Game: 1) Think-talk; 2) Starry-eyed; 3) False-messiah; 4) Sunday-go-to-meeting; 6) Hunt-the-guru. Page 77 of PDF, http://selfdefinition.org/psychology/Robert-S-De-Ropp-The-Master-Game.pdf

List at end of Chapter 5 of the The Albigen Papers.

See 1976-Zen-and-Esoteric-Christianity-Los-Angeles [fix date?] for Rose’s comments on Alan Watts.

Full text here: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/benoit/

End