1991-1006-Augies-Apartment-Raleigh

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Title	1991-1006-Augies-Apartment-Raleigh
Recorded date	October 6, 1991
Location	Augie's apartment, Raleigh
Number of tapes	2 x 90
Other recorders audible?	Video. This may or may not be audio extracted from the video
Alternate versions exist?
Source	SH purchased, white cassette, hand lettered. Also have D. Wheimer
No. of MP3 files	4 x 45 min each
Total time	3 hrs
Transcription status	First pass May 6, 2015
Link to distribution copy	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/
Link to PDF	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?
Published on which website?
Remarks
Audio quality
Identifiable voices	Bart, Augie, Georg, Fred, Shawn, Larry, several others
URL at direct-mind.org	https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1991-1006-Augies-Apartment-Raleigh
	For access, send email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp	20150506221907

Notes

Date is on cassettes. SH version from purchased white cassettes, hand lettering, SH collection. 4 x 45 min. Also have DW version.

This is different from Augie’s apartment 1993

R mentions that there will be a lecture tomorrow.

Present: Augie, Mike Fitz, Georg Buehler, Doug White, Shawn, “Larry” somebody.

Bookmarks/TOC – use headers in Word, create PDF & check the box “create bookmarks using headings”. Must use 1st level header only. Use PDF Editor in Linux to set default open view.

File 1

dw 00:00

It went right over the bank, and then started to slip sideways, and then the back end went over the high bank. And I got out on the running board and jumped off before, well, it took a tree out, about this big around.

AT. Was Osgood in the truck with you?

R. There wasn’t anybody with me.

AF. About six or eight of us went down ...

R. yeah, and took the power wagon and winched it to a tree across, put a hook on a tree across the road.

MF. They came down the road with the power wagon, and they had the boom sticking up, and they took out the electric lines down by the bridge.

R. Shut off the electric to all the farms down there.

Q. What’s that?

R. We’re talking about the farm back in West Virginia. We had a good one, one time, coming to, I never could afford anything but a junker, you know, and, I think I paid $50 for that one, Oldsmobile. Anyhow we were going up 29th Street hill. Dave Messina, Labovitz, Osgood, somebody else, he was in the back, forget who it was now. But I stopped for gas, got a tank full of gas, and drove up this hill. And evidently the hose that ran between my fuel pump and the carburetor caught fire and burnt off. And now it’s pumping, when it caught fire it burnt back to that hose, and the hose is squirting flame out underneath the back of the truck.

01:55

And I didn’t know that anything was wrong except I lost power; there wasn’t anything getting to the motor, and of course I’m going down a hill now. We went over the hump and went down the other side, down the road.

AT. That’s a steep hill, too.

R. Right. So there’s a nightclub there, and they just put a new asphalt driveway in. And a kid hollered at me. I hear him say “fire”. So one of them looked out and they saw the fire coming out from underneath the automobile. And the gas tank’s back there. I turned off into this asphalt, I wasn’t going real fast, but I thought if it burns up here it will burn up that asphalt and ruin this guy’s pavement. So I steered her back onto the highway.

02:41

So we’re going down this real steep grade now, going down this hill, and I’m looking for a place to get off, to just drive off. And these telephone poles are going faster and faster, and I’m timing it; I gotta turn right into the pole to miss the next one. And Dave Messina was a good Catholic, he was saying his prayers before he died, so he was looking up through the windshield. He was riding beside me, he didn’t see the road, he didn’t saying, he was talking to Jesus up there, or somebody in heaven. And Labovitz, he was in the back seat. Osgood was saying, “Mr. Rose, Mr. Rose, Mr. Rose,” all the way down. Larry was a Jew and didn’t have any hope of immortality, bravest man in the car so he was the bravest man in the vehicle. He didn’t say anything.

AT. You told me later that he said, “Zen is one thing, but when the chips were down, Messina went back to the Catholics.”

03:50

R I got off in a ditch. I saw a ditch and figured I’d throw it down there and drag it. That’s what happened. [gap dw version] [surprised it] didn’t ignite the gas tank. But I just dragged the bottom of the car on the ridge, threw a wheel in a deep ditch along side. And I was still going like heck. Then there was a little road that took off; somebody must have made an entry sort of into a hillside there. And I steered off, and that’s what finally stopped me. So I jumped out, and

Augie: All the bodhisattvas evacuated.

R. All doors fell open simultaneously. Zip, they were all open and everybody was out. A tractor trailer stopped and had a fire extinguisher. And he came over and helped me squirt [out] out the fire on the thing.

04:43

AT. And then an hour later you came back over to Benwood and we all got in somebody else’s vehicle and went over and and stripped that car.

R. Well, we took the ...

AT. Took the spare tires.

R. I got the gas back out of the tank. [laughter] I couldn’t afford to forgo all that gas. It was expensive in those days. I was going to Pittsburgh to give a lecture. And when I first started lecturing, they didn’t, nobody paid me for the gas even. I never asked for it. but I saw it was getting after, I got [had] two or three places I was lecturing every week, and I just couldn’t afford it. And then they’d pitch in four or five bucks for gasoline.

05:24

I used to have, I carried four spare tires and four gallons of mixed antifreeze in the winter time. He used to call them “baloney skins”.

AT. He had two flats one time, within 15 minutes of one another.

R. Oh, yeah. I was up in Pittsburgh, coming into Pittsburgh, and then that hill. And I pulled off, couldn’t get clear off the highway, there was like a bridge, a I was running alongside a railing, a concrete railing, and I couldn’t get over that. So I got off as far as I could. I got the car jacked up, and every time a tractor trailer would go by – they were going by about 70 miles an hou – it would just move that off the jack like it was, I was afraid to get underneath it.

But it was fun. It was a lot of work, but I was doing what I wanted to do for the first time in my life. And nothing else mattered.

06:32

Q. I heard you took a road trip down to Brookgreen Gardens in South Carolina.

R. Yes, that’s the Psychology of the Observer picture, was taken there.

Q. It was closed or something?

R. You could go through. There was a gate out front. That’s down south of Myrtle Beach. We just went for a drive. And I saw that picture of the guy chiseling himself out of the rock.

Q. How did you find out about that place?

R. I didn’t. Just driving. Just pulled off and wondered what this is, big, beautiful oak tree in there. And I thought, “Boy, let’s see what else is in there then.” A bunch of birds, what do you call it, an aviary. But then they had these statues. Evidently the family, Huntington’s, I think the man and wife were both sculptors. And a lot of their articles ?? It’s well worth seeing. I was going to go down this way, sometimes I go over to Myrtle Beach, and I always make time for Brookgreen Gardens.

07:53

They have these enormous oaks. [noise, filling ice] This [sculpture/photo] was my idea of the spiritual life of man. That’s what we’re doing. Each person spiritually is trying to chop himself out of the hard materialistic life. And I thought it was very expressive.

[loud banging in kitchen] [Somebody comes in, chit chat] [more banging, chopping ice]

08:51

Q. They’re trying to chop themselves out of the materialistic life.

R. He’ll never be happy. [crosstalk] ... He was eating his wife’s cooking and she ?? He takes it too seriously. He didn’t used to. He used to throw anything in the pot and cook it.

AT. Cook the hell out of it. I knew? where? this box? that Paul Wood had. That he could feed a million people out of ...

R. Yeah. I wonder if he’s still alive.

AT. Was he about your age?

R. Hmm, I don’t know. [they were both born in 1917] I couldn’t tell his age. I can’t remember how old I was. [Rose met Wood in 1963, both would have been 46. Note that Rose’s correspondence with Pulyan had been 1960-1961.] I was married at the time. That was back there between 1930 and 1950, in that area. I went, he was up at Bob Martins’. Bob Martin lived in Akron, Ohio, and he worked as an engineer mostly, slide rule man

10:33

And he was very deeply interested in all these movements. He joined ?? the Rosicrucians, Yogananda, he was initiated into that. he went out and was initiated into Yogananda’s, some type of yoga they called it, kriya yoga, which means focusing.

11:08

Then there was Dingle. A guy by the name of Dingle, wrote a lot of stuff. he wrote a book called Across China On Foot, It was all phony, he had never been out of the States. He ran into a guy who live next door to him, and Bob Martin was saying, talking about Dingle. And he said, “Yeah, he lived next door here, I knew him real well.” Then he got a group going and moved out of the area. And Bob said, “When did he write Across China On Foot?” he said, “He wrote it in the house over there. He’s never been out of this country.”

11:42

And that’s what I tell you about this stuff you read. It sounds so true and valid, but it’s all for entertainment. It’s just a, you might say it’s a story.

111:58

Augie: How did Martin meet Paul Wood?

R. He was in Texas. Paul Wood was in Texas, and Bob went down, he was working down in that big, west of San Antonio, there’s a big laboratory going, run by, what was the guy’s name? Tom Slick, the guy who’s running the Tom Slick airbase. Slick had done some investigation himself. Tom Slick had an endowment from the government, trying to find, to get a person, a yogi who could curtail his breathing. You know, they used to say they could bury them in the ground for 50 days and they didn’t have to breathe, they had enough to survive.

And the idea was, it was for planetary use, interplanetary travel, they figures, they wanted to see if they could get a guy into suspended animation, so that in case he blacked out, when he came to he could function again, and he could do without oxygen for a certain period of time. Suppose they could shoot a guy up in a missile and it’s going to take 25 days, if the guy could go without breathing for 50 days, eating for 50 days, then when he comes back out of that fast he’ll still be alive. They were looking for trouble. [i.e., in case of trouble] and wanted to see if they could train people to go without breathing and eating; that was the big venture.

13:54

And Tom Slick was, Tom Slick had gone over; he was interested in the Buddhism, Tibet, you know, the Buddhists over there, and he had gone over there and loafed with them awhile. I never met him. I never met Tom Slick myself. But he got to fooling around with him. And then naturally in San Antonio there were a few other movements going, and this Paul Wood was one of them. He had had a spiritual experience. He had been an aviator when we bombed Japan, [omit the following: (see footnote) Nagasaki and Hiroshima, one of those two, and he went off, and he was the guy who pulled the trigger and blew the city off the earth.]

But he was a devout Christian and he read the Bible and believed everything he read in the Bible. And he said, “This doesn’t add up. The Bible says that God observes the fall of the sparrow. And this is something bigger than a sparrow that is going down. So where’s God? Where is he when he let me droop the bombs?

15:06

So he got to talking to himself, after he made the run, after he blew the place up. So they thought, considered him dangerous, dangerous to the other crewmen. So they gave him a rest and recreation stint to serve at home. They shipped him back to the States. Well, he went to work in a car dealership in San Antonio. And he said this thing troubled him tremendously and he got to praying. He was doing everything to get God’s reaction to what he was doing. And he said that he was just troubled, and somehow he was in mental agony from it; it just worried the life out of him.

He tried a lot of things. He tried to pray. And he said he read in the Bible somewhere that whenever you’re in need of help or whatever you should pray thusly, and what followed was the Lord’s Prayer. So he takes the Lord’s Prayer and starts praying, nothing but the Lord’s Prayer, over and over and over. Of course that drove him nuts.

16:21

So he said he got a job in a car dealership selling automobiles. And he said that he’s got this on his mind, and he had some people who came in and gave him a real bad time. They got to arguing with him or giving him heck because there was a defect in the car or something. And he said he went over to the desk and sat down at the desk and prayed for God to kill him. He didn’t want to live. And he said he passed out. And they took him to the hospital, and he was out for ten days. Ten days as far as our consciousness is concerned. And he said in those ten days he was free, he was travelling. And when he woke up, when he finally woke up he realized that he was immortal. that this was proof of immortality, because he lived but in another dimension.

17:13

So he spent the rest of his life going around talking to people, if they wanted to listen. Of course, he never pushed himself on anybody. So Bob Martin, the guy I worked with up in Akron, Ohio [Bob was living in Akron, but they had worked together in Alliance] And Bob got him to come up to Akron. And he looked like the Crazy Guggenheim, played Jackie Gleason’s sidekick. This was when TV first came out. This guy was taller, he was a tall man, maybe 5’ 10”, along in there. His eyes, Crazy Guggenheim was a drunk, and he looked like a drunk, acted the part of a drunk I think.

But his eyes were hooded like, you know, they had pouches here. And those pouches were white. (I’m talking about Wood now, not Guggenheim; I don’t know what color his were.) But he would be walking down the street, he was walking with Bob Martin one time, and he was telling him about the battle of Gettysburg: he was watching it. And he was saying where the troops were stationed and that sort of thing. And sometimes he’d be talking, he’d flop into another case, phase of history. And these were things that he seemed to see.

18:47

Of course, a lot of people, his wife, he had a wife and some children. And I never met the children, but his wife got rid of him. She shoved him out the door, because he wasn’t talking intelligently to her. [timeline question: she might have kicked him out before the experience; see the 2nd wife’s account] So he just, I don’t know what he did for a living after that. I don’t know if he still worked in the dealership. But he rented himself a little room someplace. And some people would even bring him food. Some of the women that got to knowing him would bring him food. And a lot of people learned about him.

19:25

And he moved from there to Oklahoma. And he moved out in the country. And in the meantime he had picked up a different wife [Mary]. He had another young woman with him; by young I’d say she was about 25, very beautiful woman. And I’m telling you, he wasn’t nice to look at; he was, he looked like he’d been soaked up in too much booze. And I think he did, because when he was in the air force he was unhappy, he was just drinking, to try to put himself to sleep. But he moved up into Oklahoma.

And he said that, we were sitting there talking, in Akron, and Bob has invited all the engineers. Bob was an engineer, you know, he worked the slide rule, to figure out any projects they were on. And they had a whole lot of officials from Firestone that came over to this little meeting at Bob’s house. And Wood was there. Well, Bob Martin had ten kids, so we couldn’t meet in the house; we had to go out into the garage, took some chairs, because the kids were just climing over you. Bob never trained them to sit still.

20:42

So these guys were all questioning him about his experience. And he started telling them about the time that he had no food in his house. he said, “When you’re working for God you don’t have to worry about food, you don’t have to worry about anything. Whatever you need will come to you.” I believe this myself. I ain’t saying I’m working for God, because I don’t want to presume that I’m doing something for the maximum power that’s running the universe. But I’ve never had any trouble ever since I’ve been doing this work. I’ve never had any trouble with enough to live on. That’s all that’s necessary, enough to live on.

21:22

But he had a big car. When he came into Ohio, he had a big car. I said, “Geez, did you buy that?” He said, “No, somebody gave it to me.” It was a headache to him, I guess the gasoline, I don’t know. And he told me, he said, “I don’t worry about it. I think I’ll be supplied with what I need to get around.”

But anyhow, he was telling about this thing of the, he went without food, he said he had, in his cupboard he had an onion and a soup bone of some sort, and something else. And he said people were coming over to talk to him, and he always liked to have soup or something for them to eat. So he gets a big pot of water and he thinks he’s going to make a pot of broth at least. That was all he had. And he said he cooks the bone and whatever thing he had there, and they all eat it I guess out of politeness. But the impression was that they were satisfied. I imagine they would be, you know, who in the heck wants to eat two bowls of that? [laughter]

22:37

But he said that it wasn’t just a day or two that one of the ranchers – there were big ranches around there – and he said a guy came in with a quarter of beef. He said, “You got a freezer?” And he said, “Yes.” And he said, “Can you take this off my hands? I don’t sell this stuff and my freezer will only hold a couple quarters. If you’ve got room for it you’re welcome to it.” And he said that’s the way his life went. That by the time he was ready to starve, something would show up.

23:08

Well, I could see these experts, these were engineers and mathematicians who believed in nothing except something that could be explained in logical terms. So they’re kind of sneering at him. And Bob Martin, the guy who brought him up there said, “Paul, geez, I wish you hadn’t have told that.” You know, “I didn’t want you to appear ridiculous.” And I said, “Bob, shut up, will you?” I said, “He’s telling them what’s happening to him. It doesn’t matter whether people believe it, whether they believe it or not.” But I believe it. I don’t believe he’s lying.

23:52

Well I could see that ...

AT. They were surprised he had a good looking wife.

R. Yeah. She came in. He got up and had to go into the house to go to the toilet or something. He got up and went into the house and his wife comes out with the coffee pot, and she’s passing out the coffee. And one of these smart alecks, these engineers, said, “Hey, what’s it like to be married to that guy?” She said, “It’s alright.” And he says, “Well, just how do you tolerate all his ideas?” And she never missed a drop of the coffee. She went to the next cup she was pouring and she said, “He is my lord and master.” And that was it. She hadn’t batted an eye; that’s what she believed.

24:40

AT. What made you sure that he was authentic?

R. Well, I know when I’m around a person, I could tell when he was talking. I knew that he made the trip. One thing about it is, he wasn’t selling anything. The other thing was that he gained knowledge, see, that wasn’t there before. He had the ability to go to almost any time in history and focus in on an incident. And he’d do it walking down the street.

25:15

Swedenborg had this, incidentally. Emanuel Swedenborg. The Swedenborgian Society formed as a result of his works. You don’t hear much of him around here, but out in Los Angeles they’ve got a big center; there’s a great big building over there. They’ve got one on the east coast too, in New Jersey. But I knew that the man [was genuine]. And that’s the reason when they got to ridiculing him I said, “Hey, don’t worry about what people think.”

AT. Do you think his experience and yours were identical?

R. No. They were identical in that there was no time after death. You can move to almost anyplace you want to focus on, which seemed to be his, the thing that concerned him most, that he wanted to visit certain places in history. All the history is now. There is no calendar, it’s just a, it’s a space-time printout you might say.

Q. Do you think any two people’s experience can be identical?

R. Not exactly. I don’t say that any two people’s, they will all be slightly different. But what you go for, what you listen for, is what did they learn? Just seeing some building, that doesn’t mean anything. What means something is, we’re going to presume that the pictures of the earth may be retained in some memory bank. They used to have a name for it, I forget what it was, the Akashic records. That’s what they used to call that.

27:06

But the thing is that he didn’t need anybody of authority; he didn’t have any, all he was looking at was, like you spin some film. But he knew that he was eternal, he knew that he was immortal, from this trip. That he had been there, and that’s what would happen when he finally died. And of course that’s what the, there are very few people who put out the effort to try to find that.

‘AT. I’ve often heard you say that when you get to the final point that the Trith itself, capital-t Truth is going to be identical for everybody when they get to that ??

R. Well sure. I just wonder what’s in between. I do believe that a lot of people when they die, it’s like a bardo. They enter certain bardos, because that’s the only thing they can understand. A person [who] couldn’t understand going someplace where there wouldn’t be people, or relatives. Because they would remember it. [?]

Q. So when you’re dead you don’t necessarily get complete understanding?

R. The average person doesn’t. Somebody asked Buddha one time what happened to different people that died. And I’m trying to think what he said. He said that people like the Confucians would find Confucius. You know, that they’d pick up on what they were familiar with, or search for it. And the Buddhists naturally would still be Buddhists.

28:46

They tell a joke about that, incidentally. It kind of makes the whole thing seem a little bit, you know, unprovable by the reports. They say a, there was a guy, a Protestant and he died and went to heaven, St Peter met him. You’ve heard this have you? [laughter] St. Peter took him for a tour of the grounds. There was a big temple and the guy says, “What’s that over there?” And St. Peter says, “That’s the Jews; they think they’re not in heaven, but they are.” Then they see these big, tall steeples and he says, “Oh, that’s the Episcopalians. They’re very happy where they are.” In the meantime they’re going from one place to another, and these little, passing these temples. And the guy says, “What’s this big wall we’ve been passing? What’s on the other side of that wall?” St. Peter says, “Don’t talk so loud, that’s the Catholics. They don’t believe anybody else is here.”

30:03

Q. Did you see any of the aspects of the Albigen system in what Paul Wood did before his experience?

R. The Albigen system is nothing more than a challenging of definitions. And he doesn’t go into it. All Paul Wood would do, if I wanted to, he would sit and tell you about his experience and that was it. But he believed in a magic, in connection with it. He believed that what he had to do was to go out and reassure people that they were immortal. And for doing that, in other words, his view was, it’s not God’s will that we should be stupid, or in ignorance. We have to struggle to find out. We’re animals, basically. And I doubt seriously that when [that] a chicken or a rabbit knows anything about immortality. They’re programmed with an impulse to jump and escape, when something attacks them. And they’re jumping – if they thought they were just going to be injured, maybe they’d be slower in jumping. But they do it with a save-your-life attitude. They go as fast as they can to get away from a predator. So that doesn’t mean that they have any theological power. But that doesn’t also mean that these animals do not survive death. [sentence]

31:35

A. I’ve often thought though that Paul Wood, in his turbulence and his questioning and his perseverance and intensity and focus, that a lot of the things, that he a vector, and a lot of the things that are in The Albigen Papers, he unconsciously went through without realizing he was going through them.

R. He went through a tremendous traumatic argument with himself. And prayer. He didn’t argue with God, he was arguing with himself, trying to sift all this material out that he exposed himself to, that’s all.

Q. He? was suddenly thrust into a position where his definitions didn’t make any sense.

R Too late for definitions, yeah. It is. When you die and you realize you’re conscious, that’s all that matters. There’s a tremendous joy that sweeps over you to know that you’re still alive, that’s all.

A. Do you think he found out who he was? Do you think that Paul Wood knew beyond a shadow of a doubt who he was?

R. I wouldn’t say that. I wouldn’t like to say – of course, I never questioned him. I just sat there and listened to him, and when I was listening to him I knew he was telling the truth. And he didn’t care. He didn’t care if people didn’t believe it. His idea was, you know, he wasn’t going to fool anybody, there was no point. Nobody paid to get in, why would you fool them? But his sincerity was there. And it was kind of hard to take from – you know, this guy doesn’t look like a saint. He looks like some fat man who’s been hit on the head with a 500 pound skillet or something. He was not a handsome person [at all].

A. Maybe his halo needed shining up.

R. Well these things are preconceptions. You think people have a, you know, that people do have halos. That’s nonsense. You look the same over on the other side as you look here.

33:46

Doug. Just to kind of, before, was it mostly what he said, that’s how you can tell? Or is there some kind of ...

Q. Direct rapport kind of thing.

Doug. ... intuitive level that you can tell?

R. Yeah. Well he’s a ...

MF. Did he know you had an experience?

R. Never talked to him about it. If he would have asked me – he put out some papers, and I wondered why he, he was trying to communicate with people and try to bring them into having this experience. But it was kind of, I considered it a little bit naive. He put out a paper, and the paper, see what he did, he prayed the Lord’s Prayer, when he was having trouble in the army, you know. [ <- omit? ] he was working in the car dealership. he just worked the Lord’s Prayer over and over and over.

So my, I differ with him on this, that I don’t believe you have to have a particular, one-only formula. What you have to have is an overwhelming desire. Not just to say, “Well, I’d like to read some books on this subject.” No, no. you live it. You get in there and you live what you think you have to do, to become perfect enough to see through the veil, that’s all. I mean you have to die. You die. He died. He was out for he said about eight or ten days.

35:17

And – he mentions [mentioned] a lot of those places he went in those eight days. I mean he got around. I tried to move around a bit, but I came back. I woke up abruptly.

But he put out these papers, and I wanted to see what he was doing, because I felt that that was a formula and I considered him valid, he’s a valid person and I wanted to know his formula. And this was paper on the Lord’s Prayer. And he said what you do is take the, you study it a line at a time. Every line in it he says is important. So he got this paper and he says take the first line, “Our father who art in heaven,” okay, you take that and say [ask] why is that in there? What does that mean? And he said that’s what he did; he took it apart, he worked it backwards and forwards. Because if there was wisdom in there, he wanted to shake it out.

36:16

Well I read the thing and I got down to, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others who have trespassed against us.” And I wrote him a letter and I said, “I don’t sin, so I have nothing to be forgiven. If anybody sins, the guy who created me sins.” And that’s my attitude. So I couldn’t go along with him. I said I couldn’t preach that, I couldn’t advise anybody to do it. Because of the fact that the human being is just a poor helpless animal like all the rest of the animals. That somebody’s telling him that he’s sinning sins and committing crimes and that sort of thing. And he’s just doing the best he can out of the hormones and moods and glands and stuff tht he’s been donated and equipped with, so that he does strange things sometimes. And we think he’s going to hell. We get a hell built up for that guy because we don’t like him.

37:13

So that was the thing that he and I differed on. And I didn’t intend to advise anybody to do that. I got those papers to look at them and see if I could advise somebody; but I wouldn’t, because I don’t – see, this is a relative world; we have good and evil, black and white. We’ve got up and down. No, there is no up and down. There is no black and white, there is no good In evil. There’s nothing bad. Everybody does the best they can.

But, you know, we’re all in a classroom; and that’s where the calibrations come in. We calibrate ourselves here. But when you get across [to] there you’re above, you’ve graduated, or they’ve left you out of the nuthouse or whatever happens. But you’re not concerned about space and time or the accomplishments of age or anything of that sort. So he was happy. I could see why he was happy, but he was trying to, you search about, like The Albigen Papers. The Albigen Papers is not a real sweet talking piece of literature. I’m talking about the bumps on the road.

38:30

Q. You think he may agree with your characterization of becoming?

R. I don’t know. I never got a chance to talk to him. I never talked to him directly. I corresponded with him through the mail for awhile. I ?? it was. You see, no two awakenings are the same. And then you’ve got stuff that’s partial. You’ve got a lot of stuff that’s partial, where a person gets inspired, or he becomes a prophet, and he’s able to announce things that happen in the future and it works. He’s not necessarily aware of what’s going to happen to him after death; he’s just, he’s got a faculty, he’s developed a faculty. Or something or somebody has been kind enough to bestow a faculty on him, so he can see into the future or he can heal people, or something like that.

39:28

Q. Have you ever met anybody who you thought was as close to what you experience was as? Paul?

R. I corresponded with some people who I thought were pretty much the same. I’ve never, I was just trying to think of, I’ve never run into anybody. This is what disturbs me, too. I corresponded with some people and I think they made the jump, but they didn’t know what to do after they came back. I remember one lady said she felt that she should, she’d had this experience, and when she came back she thought that she would be a healer, that was it. She wanted to be a healer, and then by healing people she would be able to contact them, and then she could inspire them to pick up and try to heal somebody else, and use this formula, use a meditative formula to ...

40:24

The whole thing about achievement in anything is that you’ve got to have a mad dog approach. you’ve got to stick your teeth in it and never let go, regardless of consequences. Most people won’t do that, that’s all. And you get a lot of criticism. I know I get a lot of criticism. Because I can say things that people consider unkind. They’re [thise are] not unkind to me, they are just possibilities or probabilities.

50:54

Georg. Mr Rose, you said some times about once you’ve died and get beyond it all you see there is good and evil, right and wrong, get beyond that. [?] But yet I know you have your own sense of a moral code, you have an idea of right and wrong, good and bad.

R. Well, yeah, I don’t to rock the boat. I’m not saying that under certain conditions I might [not] kill somebody. I don’t know that. I don’t know what’s in the future. But at the same time, I’m not looking forward to that and I’m not studying, planning to. Fortunately I think I’ve run into a lot of hardship and opposition, but I always give myself a period of time to wait and see if the score is settled by somebody else, and it generally is. If you find somebody who’s rude, he’s rude to a lot of people. So eventually somebody will punch his nose.

Doug. Mr Rose, what do you think about that book, Magic White and Black by Franz Hartmann? You were talking about it a while back and kind of considered it an introductory book ?? ?? get them like The Albigen Papers. blah blah blah

R. My conclusion is that his advice as far as, the thing that I agreed on with him was his advice, And he believes in purity. And this is the way. You have to keep your mind pure. If your mind isn’t pure, it’s exceedingly materialistic. You’re down to the earth, you’re down to breeding and eating, raising hell and that sort of thing. And there’s nothing that’s going to come from that except, you know, a memory of living like an animal. Now that’s basically what Hartmann, what his advice is. I published the book, and I’m probably the only one now who publishes it. I supplied, when I first published it I couldn’t hardly sell a copy. Because, I thought a lot of people knew about it. But people don’t. People are interested now in sea shells, smart rocks, channeling.

43:33

See, this is dangerous. It’s not psychically dangerous, but you’re getting to play games like a kid, and you’re imagining stuff. And if you imagine it too long you’ll hear voices. When you get to hearing too many voices they will carry you away, because you’ll be doing what the voices tell you. And of course an entity moves in. There are other things in this universe besides the human being and the animals on this planet. [sentence] There are discarnate entities too.

I don’t say they are devils or angels; they’re just discarnate entities. But they get into your, under your nerves. I maintain that possession is a case where [there are] exposed nerve sheaths. We were talking about this earlier, in epilepsy and stuff. The bug gets in there and you play hell, it plays hell with your sanity. So immoral acts are not advised. So that doesn’t have to be, that a person who reproduces is not going to go to heaven. Because this body, what we are doing here, [dw1 ends at 44:40] we are produced by someone or organization …

[break in tape]

[sh1 ends at 45:07]

File 2

sh2-00

the sand on the beach

dw2-00:00

... and there’s a purpose; there’s probably a terrestrial purpose for us being here. So you’ve got schemes inside of schemes. You’ve got planetary growth and this sort of thing. We try to puzzle it out. Some of the esoteric thinkers believe that we come from a planet into an active planet, like the earth; you know, some of them have no life on them. [sentence] And then they burst into a sun. And a new set of planets in billions and billions of years will be floating around us, and we’ll be aflame.

dw2-00:42

Now that’s, Blavatsky said the old ancient Hindu and Buddhist used to think this. That this was an expansion of the universe. That can’t be proven, or it just sounds like a possibility. But this, we were talking here last night [missing tape] about the complexities of the human brain. Why, for, like we’re not too much more better than an animal. You’ve got some pretty smart animals running around like horses. They live close to humans and they get to thinking a little bit I think. But regardless, we’re not too smart ?? Because we, our steps in science are so slow, and takes so much time to discover the, for instance, they’re into these neurotransmitters and prostaglandins: I knew nothing about that when I majored in chemistry when I was in college. And I knew nothing about prostaglandins until just the last couple of years. The last five or ten years I ran into the term.

And of course we find that these things work together; one of them affects the other. One neurotransmitter affects another one. Like they were talking about this dopamine affecting another neurotransmitter. Well here we’re, it isn’t just cell and protoplasm and anything [stuff]. You hear people say, “Isn’t the human body wonderful, with all the complexities and efficiency that it has?” They don’t see half of it. Because there’s stuff that we can’t see with our microscope that’s motivating these neurotransmitters.

02:18

The virus is something that can’t be seen. When I was in school they were just now [then] observing electrons with shadows, making shadows with them. That’s how checked out the first electrons.

So there’s a tremendous, complicated mechanism in these bodies. And there’s a purpose behind it. And there’s something, that when you tilt one way, something tilts you back, or starts to destroy you. That’s the real hell on earth. And of course when we’re young and we can do a lot, we don’t think enough to keep from being destroyed. That’s the unfortunate part about i.

Augie was running a tape here on the guy who had encephalitis, and people would suddenly get paralyzed and do strange things. And all they talk about in the thing is chemicals. And several times on the tape though, the fellow would talk about their, there were men and women who both had this, they would lose their minds so to speak, after awhile. And some of them would regain it after maybe a little bit of this dopamine they’d give it to them. [sentence] But it casually mentioned that certain stuff they were watching about these people in the hospital.

They were watching of course their bowel movements, their sexual activity – he had a word for it, you know – and it’s almost as if these, he’s got, his fingernails are short or his fingernails are long, and these don’t matter, sex doesn’t matter, no more than the long fingernails or short fingernails. Because what matters is they’re concentrating on the brain; they want to see the relationship between these neurotransmitters is.

04:18

But they’re missing the whole point. That the base actions of man determines his mind and his brain, and the mind affects the brain. In other words, the ability to remember: you can train yourself to remember and you can train yourself to forget. So there’s a lot. But when you get to thinking about this, what has caused this? How can we evolve from couple a little, you know, a sperm and an egg? How could we evolve all of this gear in a single molecule like? That at a certain time your, there’s a memory in the DNA – when is it activated? What activates it? What kind of machinery have they got in there? Where are these electric wires running from one place to another, to send out these commands?

In other words the body’s changing so the rest of the body has to change to accommodate its illness or injury or sickness. And then the long term thing. What’s going on?

And I believe – you’ll see a plan, even in international wars. There are whole robots, like a robotic creation, and there’s a whole basket full of robots that don’t work and they throw it away. [?] But in the tremendous, the fine parts, we think there’s nothing but molecules, atoms and possibly living cells or something of that sort. And those chemicals in these neurotransmitters are more complex than any other form of chemistry that I’ve ever run into or heard about.

06:25

Q. Georg will vouch for that.

Georg. Yeah.

R. Didn’t know he was there. Sorry if we turned the back to you.

Q. Is there any kind of phenomena that you have uncovered in all your diggings that you were unable to explain in your ...?

R. Oh, I’ve got a lot of stuff I can’t explain. There are things that happen when I’m around, that I don’t know – well, I’ve got a feeling. I’ll explain it probably tomorrow evening <<<<< missing talk? 1991-1007-What-Is-Enlightenment-Raleigh some of the things I’ve discovered. But this has been the story of my life. I’ve had stuff happen and it surprised me as much as it did anybody else. But it was there. And I could duplicate it, you know, given certain circumstances. You can’t create the circumstances, the environmental circumstances. But under certain conditions things happen, that’s all.

07:31

Q. [Shawn?] Does it seem like your experience something that was given to you?

R. You mean for being good?

Q. No.

R. You don’t believe in good, huh? [laughter]

Q. I won’t say anything else then.

R. That’s alright.

Q. Are you talking about faith?

Q. I’m not so much thinking faith, as that I mean, there was something out there that said, “Okay, let’s just give this guy what he wants.”

R. No, there was nobody else out there but me.

08:24

Q. I’ve heard you say you had help.

R. I felt that, yes. I felt that I couldn’t have done it without help. But when I crossed over there was nobody there, except me.

Q. Do you think it was the higher Richard Rose that transcends time ...

R. I don’t know that there is a higher Richard Rose.

Q. ... that might have been helping you, the Richard Rose animal?

R. Well, you’re pretty close. I don’t like to say that. I didn’t care, I wasn’t worried much about the body. I often think since then, [?] because I went unconscious before it happened, and I didn’t give a thought to the body. And I wasn’t eager to get back, but the time was up, that’s all. And I don’t know that it, I do suspect that very possibly there was either an automatic mechanism that sent me back, or that I was allowed to come through. But I don’t have any proof either way. I was allowed to come through, because that’s what I was straining for.

09:44

But I knew that there was nobody but me. And if you ever go across there will be nobody but you. Now if you could tie that together, because there will still be you instead of me, but there will be only one person. And there are different ways they have of describing that, but I can’t, I didn’t get anybody to sign any admission papers, admitting me in or anything of that sort.

10:27

Georg. Do you think you could go back?

R. I’ll be back, sure. I can’t avoid it.

Q. Do you have any desire to repeat the experience?

R. Oh, I don’t think there will be any .... well, at that time it wasn’t to pleasant. I’m trying to think of the, oh, I had a headache, yeah. That was the unpleasant part about it. I had a pain in the center of my head, right here. I thought I was having a stroke. It knocked me out. And I thought this was death. And I remember thinking before I passed out, “How are they going to get the body back to West Virginia?” Because I didn’t have any, not too many people knew me. I was in Seattle, Washington. And that went through my head.

But I found myself going out a window. The room, I mean, I had gone out through the pane of glass. The window was closed and I went through the window. And I looked up and saw the mountains, the Cascades or, snow-capped, and I thought, “Oh, boy. Now I’m free, let’s go up there.” That was it. When I got up there, the Cascades weren’t there. I was just on a high place. But one thing about it, I was tremendously happy. I knew that I had won, that was all. Not only that, but I had the conviction that I could do anything I wanted to do. And so it occurred to me, “Well, if I’ve got that type of potential, let’s call up the human race.” And I saw the human race. I don’t know who projected that, what projected it, but I saw just millions of people coming up the side of that hill. And that again, I know that that keys in another possibility, now that I’m not alone: something’s working behind the stage to pull up scenery for me to look at. Of course that has puzzled me a bit. But I don’t worry about it because of the simple fact that the main thing was I realized that I was alive, that there was no death.

13:00

A. You said you found it very depressing, though; to see the human race was a very depressing scene.

R. Yeah, they weren’t happy people. The faces, I looked at their faces. I wrote that up in the Three Books of the Absolute, I think. They weren’t, they just looked like they were stupefied.

13:17

Doug. Does your memory of this experience fade, or does it stay pretty much wth you all the time?

R. No, no, my feelings, I remember exactly what happened. But I’ve even done some thinking about it later, about the, for instance this idea about the human race showing up. I thought that had to be a picture show. Because I didn’t see anybody I knew, except myself. I saw the people coming up and I thought, “Well, I’m in there.” That the Richard Rose that I knew was in there, his body must be in there, and I saw my body.

13:54

A. Did you find that to be depressing too?

R. Well, it was something wrong. Because my body wasn’t coming up the hill, it was laying in a hotel. But I wanted to see some movies and they showed me some movies. How realistic they were I don’t know. But it was a tremendous gob of people coming up that mountain.

Doug. ?? ??

R. I think a lot of this was just indications to show me, you know, that I made it through the barrier. And I believe that you can. The desire, you know the spiritualists believe that there are different realms. One of them is the desire realm; causal realm may be synonymous with it [check]

Q. Where you will thinks and ...

R. They appear, right. And that may be how the whole human race evolved. You know, Adam and Eve, somebody cooked them up. And from then on it’s been hell. All sorts of variations.

15:11

Q. So after this experience your emotional fear of death was just gone?

R. Yeah, well, I don’t have any fear of death, I have a reluctance to die at the present time because I’ve got an 11 year old child. And if it weren’t for the little girl I wouldn’t have the same attitude. but that’s necessary to keep me harmless.

Q. Could it be that when these people are talking about, I’ve read about experiences like yours, and I’ve kind of been inclined to speculate, if you have an experience that’s indescribable, or that is just so far away from our normal experience that there’s no way for the mind to grasp it, that the person ...

[somebody comes in]

R. Kenny, good to see you. I didn’t mean to interrupt you.

Q. But that the individual’s personal experience is sort of like a fossil, it’s an impression that that makes on one person. It’s how your mind tries to ...

R. It has to be translated to what your physical body, picture take. [sentence]

Q. Like putting a face on God ...

R. Well I didn’t see God. I didn’t see a face. I mean close, that sort of experience. [?]

Q. A metaphor?

R. Uh huh, yeah.

16:39

Q. You talked about a lot of people, earlier you mentioned, that people you corresponded with who may have had similar experiences, you felt like they came back with very little idea of what to do next, what to do with it. How did, I mean in terms of you coming back, I mean address that question to yourself. Did you come back with a clear idea of what to do next? Or did you just kind of piece it together afterwards?

R. Well, you know. It’s very difficult to help people. And I’m not fooling myself, you people sitting here, ninety percent of you will go away with your doubts as to what I’m talking about. And probably the reason for it is that I try to find words to describe stuff, that I don’t force myself to describe it. [?] But when you’re trying to describe it to somebody else you’ve got to pick words, and the first thing you know, the words become material. And for instance, like the mountain. I don’t know where I was but I knew I was on top. That’s the whole thing. I was not only free but I was on top.

17:55

Now whether that was projected [I don’t know]. But that was my total consciousness. It wasn’t a dream. because what happened, to come back here I had to enter oblivion, and I came through oblivion. I mean I was pushed. I had seemingly irritated something else. And of course, what was it? What was in my head at the time?

A. You said, “If this is everythingness, I wonder what nothingness is.”

R. That’s right. I was getting my questions answered. So I asked a good one. And found out. [laughter]

18:40

Q. Something that I’ve always wondered about, is I feel like, even with the little time and effort that I’ve put in, trying and hoping to have an experience, if I had an experience like that, and my reaction afterwards would be, “Oh my God, I’ve had the experience,” whereas it sounds like you were sad and confused and ...

R. Oh hell, I wept for ten days. I couldn’t do it. I was back in hell. You don’t laugh when you’re in hell.

Q. What do you do when you come down from the ??

R. Yeah, I was, it wasn’t, I wasn’t doping it out either, I was just damn miserable. I mean I realized that I couldn’t live with it. I was going to commit suicide, that’s what was in my head. I was eying up these bridges over in Seattle to see if any of them were high enough to kill me. And the one right close to where I was staying was floating on cork and I would have fell in I think before I jumped off. I think on that one. It had no superstructure. And I thought, “Maybe somebody will fish me out and I’ll have to go through this again.” I thought I was going to get someplace high that I could jump off [from].

But that was, I think it was night time, my memory of it when I, my first memories of being on the street, I don’t know how long that lasted. I don’t have any idea. But I did know that I was weeping, and I wanted somebody to tell me, you know, how do I readjust? I realized I had to readjust to this life. Ad I thought it was going to have to be a spiritual person.

20:20

I was born and raised a Catholic so I thought, “Well, I’ll go to the Catholic church, and sure enough I found one. And I knocked on the door. I don’t know what time it is, 10 or 11 o’clock at night, and they still had the lights on. But some big guy with a paunch like this comes [changes his voice for effect], he’s about 35 years of age. Just as soon as I looked him I knew what this guy had been doing to get the paunch. [somebody comes in, Rose says Hi Dave] He said, “What can I do for you?” And I said, “I’ve got troubles, and I’d like to talk to somebody who know something.” I said, “Don’t you have any older priests in here?” And I’m trying to look around to see who’s in the room.

And he said, “Well, what makes you think an older priest can tell you anything that I can’t?” He was getting real haughty now. He’s bluffing, see. He doesn’t know anything but he’s got to take a pose. I just thought, “Oh, if I had a gun.” [laughter] I would have killed him.

21:24

Doug. What did you do after you went through those ten days, and finally sort of came to terms with it? And decided a direction, to live the rest of your life.

R. Well, I came back in a rather semi-conscious mood. I had to get a bus. I got a bus out of Seattle.

A. Had you been planning to leave Seattle anyway, Mr Rose?

R. yeah, I had quit my job. I don’t know if I had given them formal notice or not, but I was planning to leave. I can’t remember that part about it. I left, though. I had a compulsion to get away from Seattle – or make the bridge, one of the two. But I remember, the whole trip back was fantasy. There was a whole fantasy connected with it. And it seemed like everything that happened on that trip, I remembered it. I remember some homosexuals on the back seat, who some guy in the army was trying to kill. They had made the mistake of grabbing this hillbilly from some town, I don’t know where he came from. He wasn’t going to be handled, and these guys grabbed him when he was dozing off. I remember that, and then the bus driver put him [them] off in the desert, some little town in the desert, put the homosexuals off in the desert.

22:56

Then another thing, and everything seemed to be so, it was like these letters that glow, everything was very important, everything was seemingly, there was a tremendous lesson in them. So I’m riding in this, well, we’re coming out of Seattle going over the mountains. It was a short bus that would hold only about 20 people; I don’t know, they didn’t seem to have many people coming east on that route I guess. We were heading for Butte, Montana, I think it was. Just this short little bus, there were only four or five of us there. There was a woman sitting behind the bus driver, a man sitting behind the bus driver; looked like a gambler, he had that calculating look, and didn’t have much to say. A woman sitting behind him, and I’m across the aisle, there were only 3 or 4 of us in the whole bus. And the bus is galloping like this, see, that’s the way it was driving; I don’t know why the motor was doing that, I think it was that road was rough.

But anyhow the lady stood up and leaned over the guy in front of her and vomited down his front. I remember all the details of that trip. [laughter] And this guy is asleep. And he wakes himself and he’s [sniffing] like a rabbit. And he finally looks down, he doesn’t believe it; he thinks he’s still asleep.

A. What was the meaning behind that?

R. Figure one out. But anyhow, the bus driver saw what happened. I couldn’t see why the woman had to do it on him, she was sitting on the aisle. But the bus driver says, “Lady, you get yourself some cloths or napkins or anything and you clean that man up.” And it floored her. She was upset because she couldn’t puke on the gambler. [laughter] That would have been the first women’s lib show of contempt for the males.

25:25

Doug. What did you decide on that trip as far as what you were going to do?

R. Coming home? I was going to get close to the cemetery where I’d be buried. So I stopped in, Bob Martin at that time was working up in Cleveland. So I got ahold of him, and I stayed at his house a couple of nights. Bob was just ready to hatch a brood of kids; he had two of them and had about eight after that. And his wife was fairly young. e didn’t pay too much attention to her, because she didn’t read the books, she didn’t read much on that. She surprised me with a remark. IO was describing, like I’m telling you, what happened to me. And Bob knew what happened; he had done a lot of reading in this line. I remember one time, I don’t know whether it was this time or not, but, that was later, I wrote the Three Books of the Absolute, that was it. [?] But at that time he wasn’t commenting too much. I said, “What do you think? What do you think about this reaction I’ve had to it?” And his wife said – imagine, she’s just a kid about 22 or 23 years old – she says, “Dick, I think you lost your ego.” And she hit the nail on the head. This is what happens.

26:58

Enlightenment is a process of giving up your ego. I’m not saying it has to do that, but no matter what it is, when you get a sufficient shock, you cancel out all the things that you say you have to have in life. Because your life is over. And that cancels them out. You’re no longer belabored with the ambitions or the need to make a million dollars, or the need to be a hero or soomething of that sort. And I was really amazed at her, because she hit the nail right on the head.

27:31

And Bob of course, he was very upset by the whole thing. We went down to, from there, I moved into, he was taking a job at Babcock and Wilcox, they were working on the atomic submarine up there, and he was one of the engineers on it. And he got me a job in there, and of course I wasn’t very good company for the people in there. But I wrote Three Books of the Absolute there. Before I wrote The Albigen Papers, they were written. [sentence] before I came back to West Virginia, up in Akron, Ohio. [actually Alliance].

28:09

So I wrote them, and I thought, “Maybe this will sound silly to somebody else.” I went over to Bob’s house, his kitchen, and I read the Three Books to him. I happened to look up at him, I was going to say, “What were you thinking?” And he was weeping, he was crying. And he says, “Dick, I love you. Will you marry me?” [laughs] And that was his way of saying, you know, a superlative, just adjectives. But the thing was that he knew what happened to me, but he couldn’t take the steps. He had ten kids hanging around his neck. He had no choice but to stay in his work.

28:57

Doug. Didn’t he go up to you years later and say you were right? Was he the guy who said that?

R. Well, I don’t think he ever said that twice. Because we were always competitive. I was always giving him trouble, he was always giving me trouble. But I mean it was just on little stuff. He drank a good bit. He had a strange lifestyle.

Q. Like an eccentric.

R. Yeah, yeah.

Shawn?. In the years before your experience, you said that you went through a time when everything was beautiful, the world was beautiful. Do you think that that’s a stage that people go through in the path?

R. No. I don’t think so. I had a period, when I came back, I went through a lot of hell, but when I came back, I think I wrote that somewhere in The Albigen Papers, [check] that once more the beauty returned. And I saw the children on the street were beautiful, they weren’t just puff balls, or, they were like baby dolls [?] Everything was more or less artificial. But there there was a time when everything got beautiful. Everyone was wonderful. And I tried to write about but I couldn’t. I wrote some stuff but I tore it up. I thought it was drivel.

Q. How is it now? How does the world appear to you now?

R. Um, I get a feeling that an insane man is watching it.

Q. What do you mean?

R. Well, I’m free to do all the insane things I want to do. In other words, the world as it is, in my estimation is not too sane. And the only difference is that I’m living back in with the insane people, although I know it. I know that I’m insane.

31:03

Q. But does it all look very artificial and hollow, or does it look beautiful, or somewhere between those two extremes?

R. Oh, I wrote poetry. I mean it was just, I don’t know, I had a little bit, there was a bit of a hangover. It didn’t clear up right away. Because I remember going down the street – I was living in a flea bag hotel there in Cleveland – and I decided to go for a walk. And that’s where I ran into the people who were walking, marching, five and six abreast down the street. And I thought, “Oh, my God, there must have been a catastrophe.” They looked like they were all in a state of shock. No one was talking. And I thought, “Nobody does that.” There are thousands of these people coming. I’m standing there and they’re walking by and they don’t even see me.

31:57

So finally I stopped one of them and I said, “What happened?” They looked at me like I was crazy and never answered. Tromp, tromp and they went down the street, headed toward the lake. So finally I thought, “I’ve got to get to the next one.” They were about five abreast, in little groups. So the next guy, I said, “What happened?” He didn’t answer me, and I said, “Where’s everybody going?” He said, “The ball game.” It was fifty thousand Polacks from Parma going to see the ball game. And I thought, “This can’t be – what I have come back for.”

Q. It could have been worse; you could have come back for intellectuals. Polacks are easy

R. They were all from that area though. It was the flat part, it was the west side of Cleveland. But they weren’t speaking, that was the funny thing. They were so obsessed with that ball game. And I thought they had all walked away from death, that somebody had died back there.

33:12

But I went down to Alliance, Ohio and I got a room down there so I could work in the Babcock and Wilcox plant; they were building that submarine down there. And this came over me. I just sat down and wrote, day after day. Some of it’s poetry, some was just prose. The world was beautiful. Everything was beautiful. Couldn’t figure out why; no reason for it.

33:35

Q. Do you still have that sense now?

R. Um, I don’t know. I don’t have much of a view of myself, to be honest with you. I surprise myself. I don’t even know what effect I’m having on you people. Of course, I don’t care, because I’m not your enemy. But I don’t have too much of a view. But the thing is too that I look for things that you’re not looking for. And I’m still searching for methods. And I know a lot of things that I could do to open people’s minds. And it’s difficult, because people are obsessed.

Well for instance we have this group. What I did, that happened in 1947. This is 1992 [footnote ] so if you subtract you’ll find out how long I spent. But I raised a family, I’ve been married twice, but I’ve never stopped working. My first objective was always to communicate with people who I thought would, I was always hunting, trying to find somebody who was on the brink so I could push them. You can’t get people who never think about it; that’s nonsense. And that’s the reason you write the book, and if somebody reads the book and they understand you a little bit, well maybe you can harmonize with them and pull them along a little further.

35:15

And then the efforts for that, I don’t say that you get dividends right away. You don’t. I’ve given lectures that went over like a lead balloon. But too, I’ve met some very good people, they’re very sincere. Some of them have struggled. And I – well, I shouldn’t talk about it until it’s done – I see light up ahead for some of the people that I know.. And that’s important for me. But regardless, it’s a vector. I believe that we take away the body and take away the confused mind, and what we amount to basically is a vector in another dimension. And that’s what’s important.

36:07

And that supersedes all other, money doesn’t matter, pleasure doesn’t matter. Sex is not an object, it’s just something that will take up your time, and you can wind up getting AIDS maybe, who knows? Nobody is free from the dangers of – you know, there’s nothing wrong with dying, but certain types of I don’t look forward to.

36:45

A. I think a lot of people start off on the spiritual path, think that enlightenment’s going to make them this, you used to call it the feather duster.

R. I met him when you were about 19 years old, weren’t you?

A. Yes.

R. And I’d tell him, “They don’t want to hear about enlightenment, they don’t want to hear about salvation, they don’t want to hear about anything. They’re hoping that when they die there’ll be a whole hoard of angels attack [tickle] their posteriors with feather dusters to keep them happy all through eternity.”

A. You said, “Heavenly hilarity,” for a lot ?? [laughter]

R. been trying ever since. [?]  ?? a couple notes in there he doesn’t get right so he? has? to? go? over it.

A. That enlightenment has to be joy and pleasure in the world and what other people call happiness.

R. Well, I had my moments of happiness. I’ve been happy ever since I heard about Jeffrey Dahmer.

A. ?? ??

R. The only thing, I’m afraid of going into McDonald’s for fear of getting a Dahmerburger. I thought I got one the other day. I went in, and I took the cheap route. They had the big ones for $1.79 and then three 59 cent ones for less than that, so I bought three 59 cent ones. [sentence] They weren’t any good.

Q. Did you say Dahmer had a strong vector, though?

R. There’s a man you should follow. He’s a man of determination. It takes determination to eat somebody else’s biceps. Even though calm? in character. He tenderized that one guy before he killed him. Must have thought he was tough. Actually I like the expression on the guy’s face when I see him in there: nothing has happened to him, nothing wrong.

39:08

Doug. Sometimes you have, if you ask people about information like suicide and nostalgia and? displayed? an? interest? in? that?

R. Who me? Well, I was interested in suicide myself when I was in Seattle, Washington. I don’t advise anybody to commit suicide. I don’t have any urge to [do it]. I’m more like, I’m like these idiots in the wild west, I’d like to go out with a bang. It doesn’t matter how.

A. Take a few judges.

R. Ah, now you’re talking.

Doug. You were saying something in ?? you were talking about, in certain aspects of depression, that there’s truth in that.

R. Well I don’t doubt a bit, you’ll go through hell. Not only depression, you’ll go through hell. But I don’t like to harp on it too much. Because nobody wants to go through hell.

[laughter]

R. He’s going to laugh his way out of this one. The devils will scatter when he comes with that laugh.

Q. Before your experience you described that you were in some kind of turmoil, emotionally out of sorts. That strikes me – was that a peculiar type of anxiety that you were suffering from? Or was it just an extreme [crosstalk] previously understood pain that you were in at the time? Before the experience.

R. Oh, that was physical. There was no thought with that. It was just, I just went into my room and, I’ll tell you what I was doing, I was sitting in a yoga position up against the bed [board]. I’d sit in that position because it was easy: you won’t fall forward and you’re not going to fall backwards if you’ve got your back up against the wall. So you sit there for a long period of time and read. Sometimes I’d read with a book. I’d go out on the farm and do that in the winter. I wouldn’t build a fire, I’d just go in there and get a blanket, wrap up in the blanket and get the book.

I was reading Blavatsky, I remember that. Every evening I’d set up an oil lamp; we didn’t have any electricity in the place. I’d get an oil lamp and fire it up and read until I got sleepy, and then go to sleep. I’ll never forget, I woke up one night in the middle of the night, something had me by the nose. And I happened to look up and here it’s a mouse, and he’s sitting on my shirt here and he’s got his paws up over my nose channeling the warm air. Of course I didn’t respond in a charitable manner; I took a .22 rifle the next day and shot a lot of holes in the baseboard, trying to get them on the run. The place was full of them.

42:29

Q. Do you feel like your emotional state prior to the experience was relevant to what happened?

R. I never know what my emotional state is. An emotional person can’t really describe his state, I don’t think. In other words, if a person’s depressed and you say you’re depressed: “I’m depressed,” no, immediately I’m something else. Because I’m conscious of being depressed. If I admit it, something else will move in. Even anger: you can be angry, I’ve had anger and somebody’d crack a joke and I’d laugh and I couldn’t fight. Id get to laughing because of the guy cracking the joke.

I don’t know. I realize what you’re trying to do, you’re trying to get a picture. The different things that I say don’t necessarily create a picture of the type of person I was. And I don’t think I should try to say what type of person I was. because nobody would believe you if you talk about yourself. I realize that, and they you try to, if I’d say something that made me look good, why it would be rejected. The human mind generally rejects it and says, “I can’t believe that.” The best thing is not to enter it. You go get the witnesses and bring them in. That’s the best way.

44:14

Shawn? I guess the same kind of question that Larry has, because I always try to picture in my mind, was there a certain combination of emotional turmoil and physical pain ...

R. Trying to get the recipe for the ideal piece of cake

Q. certain combination of turmoil, pain

R. You’re trying to get the recipe, the ideal piece of cake.

Q. Did you have the feeling that this was going to happen?

R. No.

[break in tape]

side dw2 ends at 44:46

File 3

00:00

I knew I was dying. When that pain hit I knew I was done. When I came back there wasn’t a bit of pain. That was another thing. I thought, when I, I figured I should have come back and the head was still loused up. but there was no pain.

It was engineered. That I believe. That’s the reason I say, I repeat that loss of times, when I say I had help. But I never got a good look at whoever was helping me or whatever was helping me. But I don’t argue with it. Because whatever it was I appreciated the help, even though it was painful.

00:41

AT. Do you think the pain was necessary in order to synthetically convince you that you were dying? So that you would let go?

R. Maybe I couldn’t get away unless I lost that consciousness, the physical consciousness. I think you have to die, that’s all. I think a person has to die.

AT. In “Three Books of the Absolute” you talk about a lot of anguish. What was causing the anguish?

R. Ah, um, people like you. [laughter] Better than crying. Rephrase that, will you? [laughter]

AT. You talk so much about the anguish of the experience ...

R. Oh yeah. I think if you read “Three Books of the Absolute” you’ll pick that up. I was, you know. You get a perspective. Once you ger, all your chips are on the table, and you’re going to lose and you know it. And that’s the human race. Everything in the human race seems to be – you’ve done your stint here and there’s no way of reclaiming or getting back in the game. You’re going, that’s all. Of course you don’t know – I didn’t know I was going to wake up. I knew I was going to die, I didn’t know I was going to wake up. And that causes a lot of, you know. And then of course sooner or later you lose consciousness.

02:39

R. Are you taping this? Are you?

Georg. Yes.

R. Oh my. Libel. Don’t be quoting me on it

Q. Do you think that when people are asleep and they’re not dreaming – is that anything close to death?

R. No [or you know - check] sleep is mostly unconsciousness. Unless you’re dreaming.

Q. I wondered where your personality or your self is when you’re not dreaming and you aren’t awake.

R. Well, you’re observing something. I call it a roll of film. The mind is unconscious but you’re still observing, the roll of film is still turning. And maybe more clearly than if you were awake.

I’ll never forget, I was in the hospital one time, and this guy in the next bed to me was dying of cancer. And they were all older people; I was only about 40 years old at the time. And three other people in the ward were all terminal, they didn’t have too far to go. They got to talking about death. And I said to them, “your life is like a roll of film. Your life has already been lived, it’s on the roll, you’ll play it out.” And I said when you get to the end of that roll of film there’s no extension.” And this guy was dying of cancer. He could hardly talk. He listened to me and he didn’t say anything much, until it dawned on him what I was talking about. And he took his arm? and he pointed at me. And he says, [whispering] “I need another roll.” I hope he got it.

04:53

Q. Do you feel that reincarnation is true? Or false?

R. I don’t know. And I don’t know if we have a choice in that. I do think sometimes that we move. I think that after death you move around according to your capacity. I think too that there’s a governing force, too, beyond a shadow of a doubt. In other words it’s just like when a baby is born. I think a baby awakens from another dimension, really. And it has, maybe, it would love to explore – something besides mama. And after a few months or years he gets irritated because he can’t explore. [?]

But I think the same thing may occur when you go into another dimension. There will be possible restrictions placed on hat you can adapt to, in that adaptation deal. And I think it’s just automatic that you might run into that. I don’t know for sure. I didn’t have any played? on me; at the same time, I got dropped off the cliff.

06:09

It’s basically, there are things you can come to a conclusion by, and think they’re proved, through philosophy and experience. But they may be disproven later. Your philosophy ?? incomplete or inadequate or whatever. And then there are things you experience, mental experience you have, that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you’re right. And these things have happened to me. And if they hadn’t have happened to me I wouldn’t have been so conscious of – you’re stealing her purse.

Q. I didn’t think anyone would notice. I had the perfect plan.

R. [laughs] But I had things happen to me that were uncanny. And yet I knew beyond a shadow of doubt that they had happened, they were happening, or would happen. And since I’ve had that, more than one of them, I’m inclined to believe that this is, a pattern in any dimension might be very much the same.

07:15

I’ll give you one of the, one or two of the examples, that we were talking about earlier. When I went away to the seminary my mother took me up, I was just a kid, 12 years old out of grade school. My mother took me up to the parish house – I hope I’m not offending too many Catholics [check for earlier comments, help to sort out tape order] – I don’t see anybody shaking, ?? there might be somebody ?? But anyway, this priest came out and she’s talking to him and telling him what kind of clothes I have to take with me. And I kept staring at this fellow, and I’d say he was about 45-50 years old. I kept staring at him and I wasn’t paying too much attntion to what he said. I saw him dead; he was a dead man right there in front of me.

So we came out and I said to my mother, I said, “Father Philips is going to die.” And she said, “Shut up.” You know, blasphemy. So I didn’t say any more. But he died within a week; he was gone. nd I’ve had that happen repeatedly, over the years. And it’s that kind of conviction that makes me believe – you’ll know when you’re right. That if you can get tuned up to that. You don’t want to predict things just because you don’t like the person or because you love them. [but] if you see things and can judge a situation. That is, it’s not physical. This is another dimension, when a person’s at the point of death, and you see the thing ahead of time.

I was in the contracting business with a guy; he was about 60 years old at the time. And he never kept any money, he was living in a house trailer, he and his wife. And they had grown children and two of the girls had married and moved to Florida. And she sent for them. And they had in this 40 ft. house trailer was his wife and his two daughters and two little toddlers. I used to drop in on them once in a while, because I knew he was sick.

09:34

So I went over, the trailer was over in Bridgeport, Ohio, and I walked in. He was laying there with his eyes shut, on a couch about that high. She was getting ready to go to the Eagles to play Bingo, because they had no money and she was hoping to win Bingo. Because he didn’t have any money in the bank or anything. They didn’t have a cent. They were in bad shape; it was a rough situation. He was laying down, and to get down to where she could hug him she got down on one knee, and she put her arm around his shoulder. And she said, “Daddy, we’re going over to the Eagles to play Bingo.”

And I saw his hand come up like this, on the other side of her, and he touch her like this, real slow. And I thought, “Uh oh, he’s going.” So when she stood up I said, “Don’t go.” And I went over and I knelt down beside him and got his hand. This man talked to me through his hand. What was conveyed was that he was dying, at the time. And he was wanting to let me know that it was alright; that there was nothing wrong with death.

10:58

Now, translate that how, it sounds crazy. I had nothing to go by but his hand. And so when she stood up I said, “Don’t go.” She said, “Why not?” I said, “He’s dying.” She said, “He goes into these comas all the time.” I said, “Maybe so. But he told me he’s dying.” She said, “He didn’t speak to you.” I said, “Yes he did. I had his hand.”

Well, she said, “We don’t have any money.” I said, “Get him to the hospital.” [reverse these 2 sentences.] They had these two little kids there. I said, “These kids shouldn’t have to witness this; because when he dies he’ll vomit up his lungs.” He had lung cancer. I had never seen a man die of lung cancer but that’s what I told her. And she said, “We have no way to get hi there.” And I said, “Do you want him in the hospital?” And she said, “Oh, yes.” I just called the volunteer fire department, Bridgeport, Ohio. I said, “We need an ambulance over here right away.” They came over and loaded him into the ambulance. I went home and felt like a fool. I thought, “If that man lives, I’m the biggest jackass in the valley.” To her at least. He died that night. And it kind of shook me up. It kind of shook her up too; but that part didn’t matter. At least I got her [him] away from the kids.

12:19

Well these things, when these things happen to you there’s no hesitation. I would have felt bad if it hadn’t happened, but I had no doubt that it would happen. This isn’t just one or two incidents, this is all through my life; I’ve been around people and I can smell death. And sometimes it’s flowers. If I go past a house and I smell, in the winter times, you know, I’ll smell the flowers in winter and I’ll take down the address. And in about a week somebody in the house has died. 12:54 I had [knew] a guy in Benwood there. I don’t know if, Al isn’t here. Have you ever met Ralph Decker? I don’t believe you did. This guy [Ralph’s father, possibly William , ] was about, he later shot himself, this was his, his wife died. He was about 45 years of age. What was it, that was his – the whole family died; I’m trying to think which ones went first. But anyhow, he had gotten injured in an accident. He wasn’t critical or anything like that, but he had a son [Ralph ] who was 22 years of age, and the son was epileptic. And he would sit up all night and talk to the truck drivers over the CB radio. And he just got fatter and fatter and fatter until finally it got his heart one day.

14:05

That was what was pending I think at the time. But anyhow, I went over to his house, and his mother had died about a year before that. Now we talk about, we were discussing synchronicity before, you know, some of you will hear a lot of talk about Karl Jung, the philosopher or psychologist or whatever he was. He brought up that point of synchronicity; I never paid too much attention to it. I thought, you know, they were talking about coincidences. So how can you scientize coincidences?

But anyhow, this boy got so he could smell the flowers. And he said to me, he called me, [the father called] he said, “Can you come out about 11 o’clock?” So I went out. Twice I was at his house and somebody died afterwards. But his mother was dead, and I went into this room this time. And he said, “See if you can notice anything.” I said, “Yes, I can smell the flowers in your dining room.” And he said, “Can you pinpoint it?” And I walked around again and I said, “It’s under your mother’s picture. But she’s already dead.” And he said, “That’s exactly where I smelled it.” He was checking me out to see if I picked it up. 15:26

I said, “Well, she’s giving you a message, possibly, God knows what it is, but it’s her way of getting a message to you, that possibly she’s just happy, that she’s still alive on the other side. Or – you’ve got trouble up ahead. One of the two.” It wasn’t only a week or two that his son died, 22 years of age, with a heart attack. He just got too big and shut his, you know. But he wanted to die; he tried to die two or three times. But anyhow, then he called me for that one, incidentally, after the funeral, when I went down.

16:06

This guy appeared, this epileptic boy appeared to his brother, physically, and showed up at his door and came in the house. And his brother, Alan, his name was. [1949-2007, see note ] And Alan came past this spook, this ghost or whatever you want to call it, and went off the second floor banister, and survived it, to get away from him, frightened of it. And so I told him, I said, “Ralph, get ahold of your boys and tell them that they should be happy – the boy couldn’t communicate, he was retarded a little bit mentally, he couldn’t communicate – and he’s happy now that he can communicate, and he thought of you. He’s not going to hurt you. But what I’m getting at is these things happen ...

17:00

AT. Is he the one who used to drop into the kitchen, Mr. Rose? Come to the refrigerator in the middle of the night?

R. Yeah, yeah. The boy, the epileptic, Ralph called me on the phone and he said, “If you’ve got time, come around 11 o’clock.” And I said, “Yeah.” And I knew something was up. I went out, and there was a, in his kitchen there was a table, I’m trying to figure, there was a, well, like this was the door, coming in from the outside, and there was a refrigerator that stood right here, with the table in the center. And I was sitting here, with my back to the door. And all of a sudden somebody walks through the room, right through us, through the table. Stomp, stomp, stomp. And what I felt under my feet was not something going down but something lifting up. And I thought maybe it’s somebody in the basement poking with a pole or something. So I checked that out and it wasn’t.

17:58

He goes over, right to the refrigerator and he had a tin, little wire basket to hold glasses, about eight glasses and it was sitting up on there. And those glasses shook violently but the door didn’t open. There was this, when you go to open the door the glasses would shake. Now the door didn’t open because it was latched I think. Whatever was manifesting didn’t have enough strength to pull the door open, but it did shake the glasses. And they shook violently. And he said, “This is the exact thing he did every hour at night.” He didn’t sleep, that’s the reason I think he died. He’d come out and make a sandwich, he’d walk in there and open the refrigerator, then he’d slam it and the glasses would shake. And he’d take his sandwich in and get on this CB or whatever they call this radio, and he’d be talking to truckers all night long, entertain the truckers.

So this type of thing, it makes, of course, incidentally, the man I was talking to, he was about 15 years younger than me. [1917+15=1932]. And about six months later he shot himself. [No indication of how long after the boy’s death the refrigerator event occurred.] He got lonesome. He just didn’t want to live any more.

19:16

But the idea of being able to pick this stuff up, I don’t argue with it, because there’s no profit. There’s no, it’s phenomena and there’s no profit in being able to go around and say, “This phenomena helped, happened to me. It doesn’t help philosophically, spiritually or anything else. But it does, to me, I realize that I’m able to touch things that other people don’t touch. And this guy, because he was interested in his family, he was able to hear it also, to react to it.

20:00

Q. Do you ever get nostalgic?

R. Um, I’ll have to think about that. ?? nostalgic, real nostalgia is the language of the soul

Doug. Somehow you, Augie kind of mentioned, there’s got to be a pull and a push at the same time, that there’s sort of this goad that’s pushing you along, there might be different irritations in life, but you also need some kind of a nostalgia type of thing to pull you along. That it’s necessary to have both of them to keep you going.

R. Um, there’s another word I use, similar to nostalgia. [was it melancholy?] We live in pictures of the past I think sometimes. And there’s a, I think that, where’d Augie go?

AT. I’m here.

Q. He’s in the back corner.

R. Oh, you’re out of site. What is that? I gave a lecture on that subject one time.

AT. The lecture on Moods

R. Yeah, there’s the nostalgic mood that keyed in, yeah, that’s what I think it is. I thought there was another word for it that I used. I used to call it the language of the soul. Because you feel it intensely and yet there’s no logic, no logic for it.

AT. You said in that lecture that it’s a, it’s not really the cabin and grandma that we’re nostalgic about. It’s our initial fall from truth into relativity, somewhere back, we know that ...

R. Yeah.

AT. We know we were perfect somewhere along the line, innocent.

R. Yeah.

22:19

AT. I use it though [the mood?] when I ?? I think that, it’s hard to stay on a spiritual path if you don’t have some sense of the voice of the silence, if you’re not somehow or another, feel like it’s at the tip of your tongue or something. blah blah blah that there’s something beautiful out there ...

R. It’s out there but you’ve got to go through yourself to get it. The? difficulty? The most beautiful, I’d say the most binding memories that I have are memories of celibacy, the years I spent when I was celibate. The world was a beautiful place.

23:23

Q. How long were you celibate?

R. Well, different periods. I was celibate, ah, when I was 21 to when I was 30. And I got married when I was 30, no 33. Twelve years. I got married when I was 33. My experience happened when I was 30. And then I separated from my wife. I lived with her ten years. She had a habit of cursing me, and I warned her, and she didn’t see anything wrong with it. So I told her, I said, “I’m convinced that you don’t, you’re showing me your dislike.” I said, “Ah ...” She called me some fancy names. So I said, ...

Q. It wasn’t bodhisattva I take it.

R. No. She got about half loaded on wine one time and I had some company. And she said, “He thinks he’s the Buddha.” She said, “I’m the Buddha.” And some guy said to her, “Can I rub your belly and make a wish?” That shut her up. That was George Blazer. [see page George-Blazer ].

AT. I was there.

R. She was wishing you said it. [laughter] I lived with her another ten years more, different part of the house. And that was beautiful. You got to go through hell to appreciate heaven. She’s a good woman, too. Now see, this is difficult to follow. She was basically a good woman. But there are certain things I don’t tolerate, that’s all. Sex doesn’t mean anything to me. What means something to me is the beauty of the motherhood, is very important. And the dedication of a woman to her child. Sure, you can get attached to the flesh. But after awhile you get the feeling that you’re no better than two dogs on the street. But what counts is that sacrifice to the other party. And the man sacrifices himself, so that the woman won’t be starving while she’s trying to raise children. And that is beautiful also.

25:53

But it’s not beautiful when somebody starts calling you names and telling you how much they hate you. Because hate is poison. I became convinced that she was serious, and I said, “Okay, you’re free. I just freed you.” But as I say, she was a good woman. She hung around ten years and every once in awhile, every year or so she’d say, “When are you going to do your duty?” And I’d say, “I have no duties. No duties on this planet at all.” So finally she got herself, went out to Arizona and got herself a divorce. We had a mutual no-fault divorce. She was a good woman. Because she could have taken half my property; she didn’t take anything. She took a suitcase. That’s all. But everything ended up for the best; she got some guy who could tolerate her drinking, her lifestyle. And I got peace of mind.

27:00

But those were the most beautiful days of my life: when I was a child, and – any period of time [I was celibate]. You get – you’re shattered. Sex shatters you. It scatters your intellect too. You find it harder to think of ten things. A single, a person who’s celibate can think of ten things at once. A person who’s married is lucky to think of one thing in ten days. It’s a more difficult way of living.

27:36

Georg: There are a lot of questions about like what happens after you die, and things like that, that when people ask you, you just say, “I don’t know.” Which I admire a lot, that you don’t give phony answers when you don’t know. But what do you know, that you didn’t know before being enlightened? What did it teach you about yourself or about reality? What answers did it give you?

28:01

VIDEO STARTS HERE >>>>>>>

R. Well, first of all, you can’t get, anything mentioned in this dimension can’t be given, because of the simple ract that this is all illusion. When you step accross, this is like you’ve been to a picture show. And it’s rather petty, and you’re just, the liberation is just ecstasy. Once you’re clear away from it, it’s ecstasy. The other thing is that somehow I felt – I didn’t see anything – but I felt that I was one with God. There was a force that was so powerful, so beautiful, that [and] I felt I was one with it. And I didn’t guess, I didn’t say, “I want to see this guy,” because there would have been two of us then.

28:46

I just knew it, that’s all. And this is the reason I was so happy. I wasn’t happy because I hitchhiked my way into a higher stratosphere or something. [?] But it was a realization that I had made it. And of course there was a temptation there, too. I don’t know, maybe that was put in my head by some other force too. And that was, “Let’s test it. Let’s see how much I can create.” And that was when I said I want to see the human race, and there they came. Of course, as I said, I often think it was a setup; I needed another accommodation. It was an accommodation, not a reality.

29:30

Georg. Do you think you became one with that, or remembered that you had always been one with that?

R. Well, my memory prior to getting off that bed and going out the window was not being one with God. I didn’t even know what God was, and I saw no shape or form that I could draw you any pictures of. But I knew that I was one with the totality. And I sensed that I could do anything I wanted to do. And of course, what do you want to do? After awhile you don’t want to do anything. At least I didn’t. But I was testing it, so to speak. And of course I think I got, it was a foolish question to ask and I got a foolish answer: that whole imitated population coming up over the hill.

30:19

Bart. Is that what you mean by an accommodation?

R. Something accommodated me, yes, and it responded. See you don’t, see there was no voice there. I don’t want to get into too much of this stuff, because it’s – there’s rule of creation that if you talk about them you mess them up. And I think it’s better that you see them but not, we don’t [i.e., not to hear about them from me] – because I can’t prove anything, number one, and – you get into a situation where you’re trying to, I say, well, we can’t get a picture of this, so let’s get a picture of the guy with the camera. Let’s get around some other way and see if we can come in from another angle and get a picture.

31:14

In other words, there’s a formula for creation and one thing you don’t want to do is brag about it. That destroys it. But the proof is always in the pudding, and you never do it for yourself. You never do it for yourself. It’s always for somebody who needs help, somebody you feel sorry for, or just wish to be happy. It’s alright.

But the truth of the matter is that – I didn’t have any, what I called [better: what I’d call] basic material thoughts. I was observing stuff but I didn’t have any argument with whatever the show, whatever was running the show at the time. So I, and there is a possibility that some of it was projected, just, a silly man asks a silly question and he gets a silly answer. Something is cooked up and thrown out in front of him to look at.

32:28

Q. My understanding Mr. Rose is that in your twenties, in all your diggings and readings you hadn’t read anything about enlightenment or satori, that these were unknown concepts.

R. Well, I heard the words. I’ll never forget, this guy I was telling about [which side of tape?] I met him when I was about 20 years of age, [actually 26 ] Bob Martin, he was always talking about [with a flourish] nirvikalpa samadhi. I’d say, “Christ, why don’t you say it in English? I don’t go for those. What’s that mean? You don’t know what it means. Why do you use a six-mile word?” But he liked to. But [and] I learned a vocabulary from him. Later I’d be reading about it and know what he was talking about then.

33:12

Bart. When you talk about aspects of the experience possibly being a projection, but there was an essence to it where there was no doubt. Is there any doubt in your mind ...

R. About what?

Bart. ... as to whether it all could have been a projection?

R. Oh, there’s no doubt in my mind about that. If I had doubts about it, it would mean that I didn’t make the trip. That’s the whole thing in a nutshell. You know, when you fall through space and find yourself in a solid place, that place is valid. You can’t argue with that. That’s as valid as it’s going to get.

33:59

Doug. You talk a lot about the importance of a group, but, of course in your situation you were pretty much doing it all alone.

R. [mis-hears the question] Well, no, I can’t do too much. I can advise, I can even go give a talk, maybe get some people interested. But the wrong thing to do is try to coerce, or to be, what do you call it, an orator, and sweep people off their feet. This is nonsense. The thing is, that the reason I hang around is that there’s a door open. and some of you people, if you ever want to go through the door, you fight your way up to it. I’m not going to bother you, I’m not going to coerce, I’m not going to raise hell. I may say, “Hey, you’re spelling this wrong.” But I’m not going to – you’ll see the way I react.

34:54

There are people who have an ability, in this group now, that have an ability to go the whole trip. but number one, they should fight. The symptom of success to me was when you people start fighting, instead of talking about it. Or stop listening and start doing. Stop depending, and read your books. Read stuff, get stuff to keep the data. What we’re doing is we’re feeding by books and literature on the thing, is you feed data into your computer. Because this is a very, you know, it’s nebulous, the thing of enlightenment and that sort of thing.

35:35

In fact, I don’t think a person should really go for enlightenment, except individual proof of survival. Not being enlightened. Enlightened can mean a whole lot of different things, what do you call it, characteristics or capacities, capabilities. But the main thing is for you to get past ignorance. In other words, you’re working hard, you’re studying hard, you guys are all doing things with a lot of energy – why? Ask yourself why. Get the answer. You’ll find out as soon as you try to get that answer you’ll change your lifestyle. If you’re honest with yourself.

36:25

Augie’s one guy who doesn’t have to have the answer. He doesn’t have to worry. He thinks I’ll give it to him when I die, come to take him with me.

AT. You keep telling me that but I don’t believe you.

R. I know that’s the reason you hang on.

AT. You’ll change your mind at the last minute.

R. I think you believe that too.

AT. You wouldn’t do that to me.

36:50

Q. Augie’s worst fear is probably that you won’t warn him when you’re about to die.

R. I want him to hang around so I can hold him up as an example of how not to live. [laughs]

37:06

Doug. You have a poem in Carillon that’s something about saying goodbye, that you were going to leave, but vaguely. It always seemed like strange poem. Do you remember the one I’m talkig about.

AT. “I will take leave of thee.”

Doug. Yes, it seem strange and I never quite understood. Were you talking about your death?

R. Oh, yeah, that’s what I was referring to.

Doug. That’s strange, “but vaguely.”

R. Well that’s what life is. Life is vagueness. It’s all vague. That’s the reason I say that when you hit this, you’re not going to worry about proof. This life is tremendously vague. We don’t know what we’re doing from one day to another. We don’t know what is really true, what we can go on. Everything’s a postulate. We set up a postulate. And then we try to prove the postulate the way we want it to be proven. In other words, heaven has to be a happy place. Heaven has to be a place where there’s creation, causal creation. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t, for some people. That part’s not important.

38:25

The whole idea is, they may put you to work as soon as you land there. Just like here. As soon as you land here you get put to work. You’re like incubating, like people incubating something else out for some other dimensional entity.

38:54

Georg. Did you write poetry when you were young, as well as later in life?

R. I wrote poetry, I learned verse, the meter, how to write with meter when I was twelve years old in the seminary. The priests there got me used to writing with meter. In fact I think, one of the poems in the book was written when I was fifteen.

39:14

Q. What I’m wondering is in The Albigen Papers and just in talking, you talk a lot about self-analysis and thinking: thinking in words, thinking in ideas. Did you ever feel that poetry or other art forms were ways of – I do some things, some sculpture and things. I feel like I’m much closer to moods, creating moods and exploring moods through that. Did you ever feel like that was a path?

R. I don’t know. It’s a vanity sometimes. And there ain’t nothing wrong with vanity – unless it poisons your head. It may throw you off if you get too vain. I don’t associate, the reason I don’t associate music or any of the arts with spirituality is that the art colonies are all full of degenerates. And that’s evidence enough that I don’t intend to go to any art gallery to find spirituality.

40:27

Q. I know I see a lot of ego when I’m in touch with people who do artwork, I mean, amazing self-expression at the cost of everything else. But I feel like there seem to be people who are sincerely seeking, and who work that way.

R. I’ve run into people, well, you know, especially in painting, painters, who had some beautiful thoughts. Their painting showed they had beautiful thoughts. But they’re damn rare. I knew an artist, I was up in New York, working up there close to the Catskills, one time as a waiter, and I ran into a guy who – he was a good artist, very wonderful man. He was straight too, incidentally. And he was Jewish I think. ben Gyloss his name was.

Q. Straight you mean heterosexual?

R. Yeah, sexually. He was married, yeah. And he was a good guy. I don’t know, he took a liking to me, he wanted to paint my portrait. I didn’t have time, and he didn’t have his paints up there; he was up on vacation. But I saw that he was just one hell of a good guy. he married this woman and she’s got something bad wrong with her. And she’d go crazy. She had crazy spells, wake up everybody in the hotel. And he was very patient with her.

42:05

And I told him, I said, “Your wife and you are so much different. How did you ever get together?” And he said, “When I was a starving artist she kept me.” And he was loyal. And when he got to selling some paintings she had flipped her lid. Now I figured she got paresis [? paralysis] or something like that. Because it was in her brain. She was getting worse. She killed herself. I corresponded with him when I came back from there, and I got a letter from him, the last letter I got from him he said, “Well, she went into the bathtub and cut her wrists; she’s dead. I found her dead.”

42:48

But he was just a damn good man. There was no foolishness in him. I saw some of his paintings and there was a dignity to them, there was a beauty and dignity to them. I see a lot of this painting and I think somebody ate a firecracker and it went off in their head. They’re tainted after the firecracker hit them. It just looks like, God knows what they’re trying to say. I can’t pick it up.

I ran into an artist down on, in Atlantic City, down on the boardwalk they had an art show down there I think every year. I wasn’t down there every year, but I met this guy, he was from Maryland. We’ve got a guy who comes up here who’s an artist, his name is Dadds, Jerry Dadds. I don’t know if you met him when he was down at the farm, but some of you guys may have met Lee Warfield. Any of you meet Lee Warfield? He’s a graphic artist. Well he worked for Jerry Dadds for awhile. And I’ve seen, Jerry Dadds is a real artist. We’ve got calendars that are unique. He cuts out blocks of wood, and stamps, you know what I’m talking about.

I’ve seen my wife do that. She studied art at RISD, and she would do those blocks, whittle out a block and make it look like a rabbit. He made, ?? one year, every calendar page had a different type of sheep in it, different picture of sheep. And he puts them out every year. We take them up and put them up in the building on the hill, because we figure they ?? valuable as antiques. One of a kind. But he’s a really good fellow. I mean, nd he’s, you know, nothing, he’s real human. [try very human]

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... they’ve got to be – they’ve got to put that on in order to sell their wares. but I’m saying there are exceptions; there are good people.

Q. They’re a lot like priests in some ways – I’m talking about contemporary artists – like angels on the head of a pin, exploring a concept that doesn’t mean anything to most people. I see people now, meaning people here [?] who do what you say: they push their work in a certain way, and act a certain way because they say, “Hey, it’s worth a lot more money if I do it this way.”

R. Yes, well, the thing is, if they can sell it before the mood changes, in the public.

00:40

Q. You I think made reference to a series of paintings, I can’t remember ...

R. The art gallery in Washington DC?

Q. Yeah.

R. Cole.

Q. Thomas Cole.

R. I don’t remember what his first name was, three [actually four] big paintings, as big as across that mantel. About that wide, too. The four stages of man.

Doug. What were the stages?

R. A baby and ... I can’t remember them all exactly.

Q. ?? [baby] and then a young man, and then a middle aged, then an old man. And it’s all a metaphor. It’s a guy in a boat, travelling on this ...

R. A little baby is laying in the bottom of the boat, and there’s an angel standing at the helm, piloting. And the sky is light, it’s beautiful. And the second one is a virile man [youth], he’s out there challenging the waves, showing his strength. He thinks he’s on top, got everything under control. And the third one is a guy fighting the waves. There is an angel that came with the baby, but on the second the angel is up in the sky [no, on the bank], watching. He’s still a young man. You were with me weren’t you, when e saw that?

AT. Yes.

R. Then the third one was the guy fighting for his life. The angel was ...

Q. The storm clouds

R. ... was taking off, and the rudder is off the boat, he’s going without a rudder. Then I think the fourth one was the old man, praying, down on his knees. And the angel is coming back. In the last [prior] painting the angel is a small figure up in the corner of the painting. [But now he’s] getting ready to come back and pick up the old man, when he gets rid of his luggage.

02:41

Georg [No, says below this is “Kenny”. You said earlier that people in this group are talking about the work but they’re not doing the work right now? <<<<<< from video

R. Yeah, that’s right.

Georg-Kenny?. What could we be doing that we’re not?

R. Well you could be celibate. That’s the first thing. And after that you have to apply action. Just – celibacy is beauty; you clear up yourself to where you can live with yourself. And then you start taking the energy that you salvage, so to speak, and you go after the books, you go after the philosopher or the meditation. Meditation shouldn’t be sitting there looking at your third eye or something like that, it should be arguing with yourself, analyzing with your own mind. And writing it down, because as you analyze you’re going to forget. So you keep track of your battle scheme, things that you found that you think this is a postulation, that maybe this is true: “Okay, from that postulation we’ll work out a plan to take a step; to take a big step out of ignorance. So it’s, you’ll know what I’m talking if you get active, because it’s your whole life.

03:57

Georg or Kenny. The action is mostly reading and meditating and ...

R. Well, meditating in itself, see, I don’t believe in sitting down for the purpose of meditating. I believe in productive thinking. That’s meditation. Productive thinking. In other words, to find out what your obstacle is, whatever it is. If you’re tongue-tied, learn to be un-tongue-tied. And if you’ve got a faculty, learn to develop that faculty to greater use, greater capacity, that sort of thing.

04:28

Then, I think too that – the reason I say [talk] about reading – I’m not saying reading my books. I don’t know; I’m no judge of my books, because they, I write down what I was inspired to write, what I could remember and that’s it. But I used to, I got Blavatsky’s books, I remember, and when I was out there on the farm I’d wrap up in a blanket and I’d read Blavatsky. And she never, there was no path, nothing real significant, but those books were just so piled with data. the data was about people down through the ages who had started spiritual groups, like a history of them. Then she compares them. And you get a tremendous amount of information. Now I marveled at how the woman ever was able to write that out with a pen. they didn’t have ballpoint pens then even, just a pen point. And then somebody has to, she has to write it carefully so that some printer can copy it and put the thing together, 700-800 pages, and it’s just loaded with wisdom.

05:44

And of course she claims she’s an amanuensis. She never said that she thought all this up. She claimed it [she] was either psychically inspired to write it, or it was, she’d got access to and help from some people in India who would translate some of their historic spiritual works. Things tht happened. For instance, there’s this idea of, this yoga, Patanjali, he was the pure yogi. by that I mean he wasn’t running a racket. He was interested in people’s being.

Then there was the guy before him, in Tibet [no, was in India] what was his name, not Milarepa. Milarepa was an authority too. Who was that guy?

AT. Evans-Wentz?

R. No, no, no. [laughter] Excuse me Augie. The saliva glands and the brain will not work at the same time. This guy just wrote one page. but he was the guy who could stop an army.

Q. Kapila.

R. Right, Kapila. And I don’t doubt this. These things can be done. The yogis could kill, stop animals, tigers that would attack them. they wouldn’t use a gun or anything. They could shout at them and they’d drop dead; the tiger would drop dead. Now that sounds like fiction, but Blavatsky mentions it. But I know that things like that can happen. I’m convinced that that stuff can happen if you’ve got the right attitude, let’s put it that way. But this Kapila, he could stop an army. And he had tremendous feats that he could do. He didn’t do too much writing, but there was a lot of stuff written about him.

08:00

Now in Tibet today, they had a thing where they lift these immense big blocks of stone with horns. Did you ever see that dramatized in the paper? These monks got these horns that reach from here to that wall, they blew through them. And it shows them, they go up on the cliff; they’re building this thing and the only way they can get this palace made, or whatever it is, monastery, is to go up the face of the cliff. Because it must be 50 miles around to get a road to come up there. So either, don’t take the stones up, or haul them 50 miles.

08:38

So they tied a rope around them, and this, they photographed this procedure, not too long ago. And they get these big horns, and then they had a bunch of these monks chanting their mantras, and they’d blow those horns, and the rock floats up.

Now I had never run into this except in Blavatsky before. She talked about a thing called vril, the power of vril. And that’s been recognized down through centuries as the ability to manipulate stone. And there were certain people who had it. If you’re ever in Florida [Coral Castle ]...

Q. I was just going to say. I was down there a year ago.

R. You saw that?

Q. I’ve never seen it but I heard about it.

R. He had stones cut five feet square.

Q. ?? over a woman, right?

R. Yeah, he was in love with her, and she married somebody else or something. And he just decided he wasn’t going to fool with the human race anymore, he would go on down there and he occupied himself with getting those stones. He made the gates out of stone. They hung on some kind of, you’ve seen it, haven’t you Dave?

DG. No.

R. Somebody – did you go down with me?

Q. Yeah, Coral Castle.

R. Yeah, and he had a wall built out of it and everything. And nobody knows how he got it there. Nobody knows how he cut it or moved it. People around the area knew that he didn’t have any derricks. Thee are enormous, big stones.

10:13

Georg. And he’s not still around to tell us?

R. And he never talked about it either. I think people tried to find out, but he never talked about it. He talked about it [they talked?] just to find out how much power he had, what gimmick he used. Of course he’s ?? dead.

But what I’m getting at, there’s a tremendous lot that the human mind is able to do, and there are people who isolate themselves and go do it. Maybe it took all that man’s mental strength in his entire life to get those stones and, that was one project. And he did it to leave the word behind that it was possible to do, that’s all. But he didn’t say how.

10:58

And I think that this, see there’s a whole lot about this type of activity, that if you want to do things, don’t speak about it. Like you guys will ask me questions, how do I do this? And I don’t want to tell you. It’s not because I’m playing games with you, it’s because that destroys the formula.

You cannot have theatrics. If you have a theatrical attitude you can’t do it, you can’t do any of this stuff. And in the Direct-Mind Experience, I wrote of betweenness, and betweenness is the formula. And that’s how this is done, how most of this stuff is done. I don’t know how deeply I got into it, but, of course, I didn’t want to make statements that I’d have to prove, by arithmetic and physics, the laws of physics.

12:05

Q. Getting back to Kenny’s question about what you should actually do, and getting into studying and reading books and all, why is the pursuit of knowledge a path, as compared to like the yogis in India who just sit and meditate? Are they all just different ...?

R. None of the yogis who sit and meditate ever came up with an answer. The secret of power is the use of it. I mean the secret behind wanting it has to be the use of it. And of course I figure that if a guy’s sitting in one position to gather enough power, and use it to do something with it, I’d say yes, that’s a path. But to sit, just to sit, and – you know, I used to do it to keep from falling over. I’m honest about it. I breathed, sure. There are times when I breathe more than other times, because I forget to breathe sometimes, so I catch up with it by breathing more frequently. That’s nothing psychic or spiritual.

13:25

Because that means that if you’re doing certain things, when you get interested in, or are moving into an esoteric lifestyle, you’ll quit breathing. And you can’t quit breathing. Swedenborg mad the, I think it was he, made the remark, that everybody he knew who attained any enlightenment of this sort were people who quit breathing. Anybody read Swedenborg? He wrote a hell of a lot of stuff.

Q. What do you mean by quitting breathing? ?? completely lost ??

R. [crosstalk] went that far, but there were people who didn’t have to breathe, they could go for two or three minutes without breathing and didn’t notice it.

Q. Oh.

14:16

Q. What I’m getting at is this constant pursuit of knowledge. all this knowledge seems relative, like we were talking about, this world here is vagueness.

R. I don’t tell you to pursue knowledge I tell you to do things that will provoke your mind to think. Not just to learn more abc’s or algebra or calculus or whatever. That’s not knowledge. But the mind – this is a relative mind which we have find an absolute answer with a relative mind [sentence].

14:55

And knowing this, you have to go about, the only thing you can do with your mind is, have to, remind it. So you don’t go, start, there’s no lesson, for instance, if you come and say, “Tell me how to heal people,” I couldn’t, wouldn’t tell you.

You take the story of Norbu Chen. , He went over to Tibet and they taught him how to heal. And what they did, they locked him in a cave, a barred cave that he couldn’t get out of. They locked the door and told him that when he was able to heal people they would let him out. And he evidently got out when he was able to heal people. And he came back and lived in Texas a long time. And people came from all over the country to get healed, and he healed them.

15:52

But he told somebody when they interviewed him, “I won’t last very long. This power will fade within two to four years, something like that. And he mentioned [see note ] that that’s the reason Christ was crucified, that his power failed him after, he was a young man when he started and then two or three years later he was ?? and he had built up some anger among the Pharisees or whoever they were at the time, and the political Jews who wanted him dead, the political Jews who were dealing with the Romans. It was an issue there, and some of the other Jews who followed Christ were thinking that he was going to be the guy who would overthrow the Romans. So the Romans naturally didn’t object when the other people wanted to kill him.

16:42

But he [Norbu Chen] said [but he didn’t] that if Christ hadn’t have died at 33 or so he would have been helpless anyhow. He would have died naturally, because he had burnt himself out by lifting too many rocks up a thousand feet in the air. It takes a piece out of you.

17:01

Q. So basically what we are doing with stimulating thw mind is just putting tension on yourself?

R. Yeah, because you don’t want to think about it much. You go to sleep, you’ve got 101 things to do, you’ll become a painter, a writer, you’ll have all kinds of ideas. There are guys in the group who do it; they write and write and write, and the first thing you know it’s all drivel. And then they back off and try something else. But they don’t want to stop and act in silence. You have to generate that power in silence.

17:32

[For example] I’m running out of gas. I’m not talking about you or to you. I’m saying that what I’m doing by talking is running out of gas. If I were silent, didn’t have to talk, I could show you how to heal people. I could do it anyhow, but I mean, I couldn’t do it after I talked too long. Your energy can only be channeled in one direction, and your direction has to be that of acquisition. You have to find your power. And that means it’s an all-out battle. It’s just not something you can do on Mondays and Fridays. You know, an hour. I hear people talk, people saying, “Well, I get up every morning and sit and meditate for awhile. And before I go to bed maybe I meditate for a few minutes.” That’s nonsense. What I want to know is wht they’re thinking about when they’re meditating. Meditation without activity is a waste, it’s a waste of time. Daydreaming, you might get into hell knows what

18:41

Q. You talked earlier about finding your ability, I can’t really remember the words you used, but each person has certain abilities that they can, their own, and you talked about finding that. Is that your power? I don’t quite understand what you mean by finding your power. Is that an individual thing?

R. Well, you don’t, you can’t, I’m trying to find an analogy I can give you. And it’s hard to do because it requires action without thinking, action with pre-thinking – previously knowing that you’re liable to do it, in [from] a previous time. But when you act, you do it without thinking. Without fear of failure of hope of gain. But that has to be, that has to follow a lifetime style of egoless-ness. You have to be egoless. But you have to be dynamic, you have to drive.

19:44

In other words it takes the same as would be spent in raising 20 kids. In other words, you have to focus. If you’ve got 20 kids you’re going to focus whether you want to or not. That’s what I mean. And it’s important to be able to build up that – there’s a power that functions in the formula. Now, I don’t talk to you much. I give talks, but I don’t single anybody out, and I don’t say you’re not doing it right, you’re not doing enough, or you’re not doing this or that. Because of the simple fact that I don’t know what your, how much you’re tied, how much people are tied.

Now you’re in college, so I’m not saying, “Hey, go join a monastery and not graduate.” No, that’s your leverage, that’s your muscle. That education’s your muscle. That doesn’t mean that you have to [abandon it]. You can be a physicist or a chemist or anything else, but your priority has to be the other. But you have to prove that to yourself, not to me. You have to prove that to yourself. And that’s the way I feel. I’ve worked as a chemist, I worked as a metalurgist, a bunch of different things. And I could grasp it. But all the time I was stirring something up. Always.

21:21

Doug. That’s what I’m trying to decide right now. You’re talking about college – I have the possibility of continuing on for another degree, a PhD or just finishing up and going on to get a job. But it seems kind of, like, some ways I’m in school and I have so much free time, freedom at least that I wouldn’t have. Georg and I were both talking about this, about what are we going to do. I’d like this stuff to be the main priority. But you also have to eat

21:56

R. You’ve got to work. That’s all. It doesn’t matter what you work at. But I don’t say drop it [out?] If you can get a job in a line of work – hey, I never graduated from college. I was head chemist in Baltimore in one of the plants down there. I had a couple years of chemistry. But I mopped it up, you know, I was eager to put two and two together and learn how to test stuff. And it paid off when I went to the job. But I didn’t, I worked there a little while and I decided, “I don’t want to be a chemist.” I worked on streptomycin, on the development. We [they] developed it in Denver, Colorado, the National Jewish Hospital there. And I had the whole process practically to myself reducing this to, they called it streptomyces griseus, that was a mold that they grew. And they put it in a Petri dish, centrifuged it out after it ?? the proper thing.

23:03

And then they used that to experiment on TB. With streptomycin they put a stop to it; they closed all the tubercular sanitariums in the country. When I was a boy, every State had a TB sanitarium. There are none now. One doctor came through, I rmember, locally, he came through and he just went in, and everybody who had a total, one lung that was completely useless, he operated, cut the lobe off that was rotten, sewed them up, kept them going on streptymycin and sent them back home. Where [before] they faced, they could have been there until they died, that’s all. They had no cure for it.

23:43

Doug. there are so few jobs that give you that kind of freedom.

R. Everything is miserable. When I was working out there, there was always something miserable. Don’t expect things to be, you know, you’ve got to get a few knots on your head.

Doug. I’m already miserable. [laughter]

R. You don’t have to try then. It’s just successful ?? Capitalize on it.

Doug. That’s what I’m trying to do.

AT. Make other people miserable. Enjoy the look of consternation on people’s faces.

Georg. Mr Rose, when you said earlier that you come to a point, after living a certain lifestyle, of acting without thinking [sentence] is that what you mean by becoming.

R. Not acting without thinking. I think you should plan your life ...

Q. No, no, I know you mean that ...

24:51

R. I know what you’re talking about. You’re talking about betweenness.

Q. Yes.

R. But I don’t want you to try betweenness. I’m giving these things to you because I’m not going to be around to talk to you all the time, and someday you’ll remember it. You can keep the Direct-Mind Experience, and one day it will occur to you that you can do this, and you’ll open the book and say, “Yeah, he knew how to do it. So I’ll do what he said [says].”

25:16

Q. I know you’ve advocated against faith, obviously, and yet in a sense, that style of action based on conviction ...

R. That I believe in.

Q. ... is a form of faith

R. That’s the paradox of things. Yes, that I believe in. And you better have it. You better fight for what you believe in. Of course you’d better be right. [laughter]

25:55

I don’t, there’s something, one think that, actually, I shouldn’t say it, I shouldn’t use adjectives, but it depresses ...

AT. ??

R. ?? ?? He threw me off, I forgot what I was saying.

Bart: Way to go Aug. The secret of the universe was about to be ...

Q. You were talking about faith, acting without hope, fighting for what you believe in

R. Yes, I believe you should act on what you believe. And you may be in error as far as what other people think. But go through the mistake until ir flies up in your face. Then make the correction and believe in it. I mean, you have to believe whatever you’re correcting. [?] It may be later proven not the final, as good as it could have been. And that’s the way you grow. You can’t grow by saying, “Oh, I’m going to go with the flow.” I always say you wind up in the sewer. That’s the only thing that really flows down. 27:07

We do have, when you’re struggling with philosophy you’ll take a certain stand because you like it, or maybe because you think people will like you if you take that stand. And then later you’ll find out it was baloney. So you adapt, and you’ll say, “Well, I’m going to reset this whole program, and get my life program reset. And I’ll omit, I’ll drop the garbage. That gives me more energy and more impetus to carry out the improvement.” And this is what we have, we’ve got improvements in our philosophy; it changes from time to time. Then of course, one thing it doesn’t change, and that is that we’re out after the right answer, meaning the truth. And as they say, the truth will make you free. And it will. And of course, it can get you killed too. But if you’re free enough before you get killed it doesn’t matter.

28:22

But you get revelations. When you sit and think, you’ll get ?? revelations. And those add strength to you. But this whole thing of celibacy is the maximum challenge. And when you attain real celibacy, then you’ll have real strength. Of course that develops an ego too. then be careful. By the time you get the ego developed, that’s the time you fall off the throne.

29:09

I don’t know what you guys are going to do with all this stuff here. [video, audio tape]

Q. Edit out the ?? spots.

R. I think you’re going to have my belly button, that’s about it.

Bart. It’s all under control. We’re experts.

chit chat

R. You guys ought to have a funeral once a year, get that stuff together and burn it.

[bart – augie]

R. [joking] I forgot what you were talking about.. Was I talking too?

30:15

Q. Do you feel like you’ve learned anything new, recently? ... building on the prior ...

R. [laughs]  ?? the insulted evening. [laughter]

Q. Recently in the past few years, do you think you have had any more realizations, built on your work?

R. If I answered you I would sound egotistical. So I won’t answer you.

[silence]

30:55

Q. I still have a question. I don’t quite understand that concept of power you were talking about earlier. When you said to Georg [check] that ?? this stuff that you’ve written down, maybe one day that a person who lived the lifestyle and reads that, he’ll understand what you’re talking about. Is that the power?

R. That’s one of them. What happens, when you get control of yourself, you will feel powerful. And if you’re not in control of yourself, you will always feel inferior. You’ll be remonstrating. And this is not fiction, this is not a built-up ego that you’re accumulating, no. This is real power. There is a power that can be transmitted from one person to another. I always mention [when?] the ting about the monkeys: the baby monkey don’t thrive unless the mother holds them. And if the mother monkey gets killed, maybe some human will hold them, and they’ll be just as happy. Or sometimes they even take the little monkey and make a baby doll, and it will hold the baby doll. [negates the energy argument] so it will be comfortable. And it’s the realization that you’re safe.

32:20

As of now you know nothing. Basically nothing. I mean, we know a lot about what the chemistry is in the those leaves in the trees, or we know about the neurochemistry in the human body. But we don’t have it pieced together yet. We don’t know where it came from. As I said earlier in the day, there’s the significance [?] of a tremendous, brilliant engineer who put this thing together. I don’t believe in flesh just dropped in a pond or something, they call it the ketone enzyme, accidentally finds another ketone enzyme and forms the first human cell. The chances are a billion to one. The chances are that that first ketone enzyme, after that billion-in-one chance might get eaten before it reproduces, and that’s the end of the cycle. So if you’ve got a thousand ketone enzymes that happened by chance, the chance is that they’re going to die.

33:22

So there’s something planed against all of these possibilities, that these things have to evolve, that there has to be a metamorphosis from the fish to the land animal, whatever is supposed to have started it. And then the land animal has to adapt, and it grows different types of limbs, and the next thing you know it’s homo sapiens, from the scum where the earth met the water. The thing is, that this an, it’s not a real, let’s say, good argumentative statement.

34:10

Q. It’s sort of a fiction to put together what we know so far.

R. yeah, until you do it. Hi Fred. [Fred comes in] How you been?

Fred. chit chat

R. What I’m saying is that, there is a, you don’t have to analyze everything; that isn’t part of the power. The power is that you’ll find out that number one, when you go so long without weakening yourself, you’ll know you’ve got power. And this has nothing to do with lifting weights. That gives you no power whatsoever. But I mean that, you’ll get a power that is, it’s not kinesthiology, it’s not associated with kinesthiology. It’s basically that you know that you have a capacity. And you also know that you can lose it after you find it. So you take the right-hand road, and you go from there. You look for ways and means of discovering the unspeakable. In other words, philosophy in this line is almost unspeakable. you have to have an intuition all the time, and you run it through the computer, an intuitive computer. And you’ll know.

35:47

But I don’t say it has to interfere with your life, although I think sometimes education can be an ego, a real ego trip. And I never took it seriously, because I knew I couldn’t work in a plant [as a chemist] and do the work I’m doing. You’re tied in, you can’t move.

Q. In school it’s hard to do anything ??

R. Yeah, right, it’s hard to take time out for stuff. So I came to the conclusion, I had that farm back there; that was my point where I could come. I got the books. I drug them back there, I got a little library. And that, what those books did was stimulate an activity in the mind, You can’t sit down and say, “I’m going to sit down and think about eternity.” Try it, it ain’t going to work. But you can get books that are, subjects that are remotely related. And the first thing, you’ll be drifting back in the right direction. Expanding your, really philosophic knowledge.

36:53

But the formula is very simple: you take the first step. And if down inside yourself you feel that this is right, you do it. And if you don’t, you don’t pay attention. That’s alright. So you do what you wish.

37:21

I think that, our children, in this country and probably most countries, in the future will have very little spiritual chance at all. I don’t consider religion spiritual. Religion is the dance of the wishful people, but nothing real. And [but] it comes from purity of mind, and purity of mind comes from purity of body. You can’t have a corrupt routine and do any thinking, because you don’t generate intuition. Intuition is only generated in this manner. And what you’re doing, you’re dealing with invisibles and intangibles, and the logical mind can’t handle it. It’s only an intuitional mind that will be able to handle those intangibles. And even at that time [then] sometimes it requires some, you know, checking other books or other opinions and that sort of thing, and carefully weigh stuff out before you make it part of your lifestyle.

38:18

But today, my little girl goes to school and they hand her an “educational” pamphlet on how, sex education. And in this pamphlet are pictures of the male organs, and they’re giving to the little boys as well, pictures of female organs. You’re not going to have any celibacy in this country, or in any country. We’re going to become a bunch of dogs all over the face of the earth, that’s all. because, there were wise men years ago who advised this stuff [abstinence] and religions endorsed it. Today the religions are crumbling because you’ve got homosexual preachers and degenerates of any capacity you want to think of, there [or they’re?] in the clergy as well as anyplace else. So they’re not going to protect the children.

39:12

And this is one of the quotes that I take from the Bible: you’ve got to become as a little child to enter the kingdom of heaven. And that means pure, that’s what that means. And i have a daughter who has been raised as perfectly as I can raise her, and my wife has been in 100% cooperation with it. There is nothing of vulgarity that exists in our house. There’s no vulgar talk or insinuations that would cause her little imagination to start spinning. But hell, you send her over to school, and here they’re telling her this is something you’ve got to learn. The nexxt thing, they’ll be practicing it. And that’s the way the race will go to hell, that’s all.

40:04

Q. Why do you think things are going downhill right now?

R. I think there has been a battle – there has always been a battle the human eaters and the developers,. There have been entities that wanted just to consume the human race. In other words, you’re like potted plants, except that you’ve got wheels, you’ve got feet. But I think we’re raised for certain things are, in other words, there’s evidence to me that there entities that feed off human energy. And the human energy comes to them in the form of sex energy. And if you read some of these accounts, that’s basically where the temptation occurs. Temptation is a mental message put into an entity, a human body that’s got kind of a stupid brain in it, that can’t pick up direct from entities [?] but it jockeys him into a position where he will lose semen. So the entities are prodding for that purpose. I presume they want the commodity. What they do with it, God knows. Maybe we’re their food supply, I don’t know.

41:16

Q. Moody, in his book Life After Life talks about the experience that these people have after death. Have you read the book?

R. Yes, I’ve read the book.

Q. Those experiences seem to talk about like you get a feeling of peace and safety. Are these just certain people who have these type of experiences? I remember a guy who you and Augie ran into in Benwood ...

R. He died.

Q. he had an experience of nothing ...

R Sure. Because his whole life was spent drinking and whoring around. His whole life. If he wasn’t drunk he was with a woman. And to him that was great. See to me, what it was, he was being cultivated to fertilize the earth for? some? blasted? reason.

Q. So you think most of the masses are headed toward his direction? Are these people ...

R. The masses are headed toward a crude, animal existence.

Q. Which may very well end up in annihilation at death?

R. I don’t know. I hope not. I mean, I hope I don’t live to see it, that’s all. And I hope my daughter survives it, if possible. I don’t know what causes these things. But when the Congress of the United States passes laws saying that you can’t be rude to a homosexual, you can’t refuse him a job, you can’t refuse the risk of AIDS, then we are doomed.

43:02

And you go to prison if you hate them. I mean, you don’t have to say you hate them, you have to show that you don’t want them around, and that might be considered hate. Now I don’t hate them. And I feel that down the road, they also say, that, there’s things that are mentioned in the Bible, it goes back 6 or 7 generations, so don’t blame anybody in particular. I don’t believe in that. But at the same time, why should we, just because somebody wants to get reelected to Congress, why should the whole human race have to expose themselves to something. They’re fighting over that now, that the doctors and nurses be tested for AIDS.

43:42

Of course, I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, but the heat is building and there’s opposition to it. Congress is basically in favor of educating kids to learn that there’s nothing wrong with it. This is not the way to educate them. There is something wrong with it. They should teach them to avoid it, not to hate the kids, but to avoid it. And of course, I think that some of these sky pilots they have, these ministers that go around and scream and shout and all that sort of thing to get people excited, would mention some moral advice to their parishes, they would be doing something of value for their people. but I don’t get [hear] much of that. I think it’s just a big hypnotic thing.

Q. Mr Rose, you speak about entities. They sound like some little creature or something. I’m really not sure …

[break in tape]

[side dw2 – sh4 ends at 44:44]

Footnotes

 Url: http://www.direct-mind.org/index.php?title=1991-1006-Augies-Apartment-Raleigh-1991 

For access, send email to editors@direct-mind.org

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookgreen_Gardens 
 Wood died shortly after Rose met him. See http://selfdefinition.org/christian/paul-wood-story.htm 
 Southwest Research Institute of San Antonio, Texas, Dec., 1953. See Martin’s Peace to the Wanderer, page 55. Martin met Wood in 1959. See page 91.
 Tom Slick Jr. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Slick 
 Tom Slick’s Mind Science Foundation tested Norbu Chen. http://selfdefinition.org/norbu-chen/ 
 Rose was under the impression that Wood was associated with the dropping of the atomic bomb, but no evidence has been found to support this..
 http://selfdefinition.org/christian/guggenheim-gleason.htm 
 Rose had some massive difficulties at the beginning, however. See http://selfdefinition.org/rose/richard-rose-shooting-incident.htm 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records 
 Reference needed. Rose may be quoting some other Buddhist teacher. Confucius lived 551–479 BC, Buddha is believed to have lived sometime between the 6th and 4th century BC. (Wikipedia)
 During WWII the Air Force was still a branch of the US Army.
 See Mark Jaqua, “Conservation Therapy”. Pdf here: http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
 Published in The Albigen Papers. http://www.richardrose.org/ThreeBooks.pdf 
 In 1947 Rose lived not far from the Seattle Tennis Club on Lake Washington, so possibly  Lacey V. Murrow Memorial Bridge, built 1947. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Washington_Floating_Bridge
 See postcard from Rose to Martin: “Am in trouble. Will arrive Cleveland 8:00 P.M. the 19th. Meet me at Greyhound station.” Dated in Seattle as May 15, 1947. Page 19 of Peace to the Wanderer.
 Before the interstate highway system was built.
 Martin was an alcoholic, as he describes in detail in his book.
 Rose says 1992 and nobody corrects him so either he made an error or this tape is misdated.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer 
 See 1981-1114-How-to-Run-a-Psychological-Group (personal conversations at farm).
  Chikhai bardo, "bardo of the moment of death". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol 
 NOT THIS, BIRTH DATE TOO EARLY. R says 15 younger than himself. 1917+15=1932.

DECKER, WILLIAM A. was born 29 July 1911, received Social Security number 168-01-4629 (indicating Pennsylvania) and, Death Master File says, died 17 August 1976. >> So in 1972 he would have been 50, which Rose estimated at 45). [But Rose says he shot himself 6 months after the refrigerator event. But he doesn’t say how long after the son’s tdeath the refrigerator event occurred.]. Marriage certificate: http://www.wvculture.org/vrr/va_view.aspx?Id=12289377&Type=Marriage On right hand side of page image. (married April 9, 1946, shows wife’s age of 22 so her dates are approximately 1946-22=1924 and 1972-1=1971. Wife: La Verne Niebergall. computed (approx 1924-1971)

 Search link: http://www.wvculture.org/vrr/va_mcresults.aspx?GroomsLastName=decker&GroomsFirstName=William&BridesLastName=NIEBERGALL&BridesFirstName=&County=All&Year=All&PlusMinus=Exact&Search=Exact&NumRec=25 
 Son (died at 21 years): 1951-1972 http://www.ancientfaces.com/person/ralph-decker/30318103  
 Brother: David Alan Decker. Hadley Obituaries, New Matamoras, Ohio, dated, December 28, 2007

David Alan Decker 58, of County Road #9 New Matamoras, OH, died Thursday December 27, 2007, at Ohio Valley Medical Center Wheeling, WV. He was born in Wheeling, WV, on January 2, 1949, to the late William A. and Laverne Neiborgal Decker. He was employed as a caseworker for Wheeling Childrens Services. http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~harringtonfamilies/2007A-D.htm

 Year? Need a records search.
 Martin says he met Rose in the spring of 1943. See page 1 of Peace to the Wander. So Rose would have been Spring 1943 - March 14, 1917 or about 26.
 See “Jerry Dadds: The Artist and The Messenger”: http://youtu.be/XBW5_TD8Nc8 
 1989 Calendar: http://www.nikisawyer.com/sheep/sheep_image_5423.htm 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Voyage_of_Life 
 Kindred spirits to Rose.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapila 
 For example: “Here is the body of the tiger to testify that the animal was not killed with a weapon of any kind, but simply by the word of Gulab-Lal-Sing.” From the Caves and Jungles of Hindustan. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/6687/6687-h/6687-h.htm  .
 From Wikipedia: “The 60,000 sons of Sagara ... believing Kapila to be the abductor assaulted him. Kapila turned his assailants to ashes.”
 Search web on Dr. Jarl, German, 1940s, Tibetan levitation.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vril 
 Coral Castle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_Castle 
 This might be a reference to pranayama, although Rose never recommended it.
 To achieve intense concentration, Swedenborg practiced controlled breathing, reducing the rate while increasing the depth. See “Some Historical Implications of Swedenborg's Spiritual Psychology” by Eugene  Taylor. http://www.shs.psr.edu/studia/index.asp?article_id=116 
 See lengthy Fate Magazine article from 1974 and others: http://selfdefinition.org/norbu-chen/ 
 See 1977-1004-Psychology-of-Zen-Science-of-Knowing-OSU including its footnotes for an extended discussion of Norbu Chen.
 Actually only a few years, as he died in 1977. 
 This is not in the Fate Magazine article cited by Rose and may be either Rose’s supposition or from a different source such as Rose’s acquaintance Slim Cunningham. Norbu Chen was covered repeated by National Enquirer but no articles could be located. He also appeared at large events and on television. For Slim Cunningham see 1984-0428-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Akron.  maybe better >> 1981-0120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Pitt  >> or 1984-0502-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Columbus 
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streptomyces_griseus 

End