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Title 1990-0215-Are-You-A-Robot-Ohio-State
Recorded date Feb. 15, 1990
Location Ohio State University, Columbus. Ohio
Number of tapes 2 cassettes
Other recorders audible?
Alternate versions exist?
Source Paul Schmidt
No. of MP3 files 3 files - 46 min, 46 min, 46 mim. Side 4 is blank
Total time 138 minutes = 2 hrs, 18 min
Transcription status Extensive notes
Link to distribution copy http://distribution.direct-mind.org/
Link to PDF http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?
Published on which website?
Remarks This is different from Are you a Robot - Baltimore - 1986


Audio quality Very good
Identifiable voices Al Fitzpatrick, Chuck Conrad
URL at direct-mind.org https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php?title=1990-0215-Are-You-A-Robot-Ohio-State
For access, send email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp 20150210224439

to check

File 4 located, only 2 min long. Must add to transcription file.

Not to be confused with 1986-0307-Are-You-a-Robot-Baltimore onSearchWithin.Org


Audio quality very good.

Present Al Fitzpatrick, Chuck Conrad

Also titled: "An Evening with Richard Rose"

File 1

45 min 35 sec


Well, we’re going to talk about some things here in the esoteric department. And there’s a field of inquiry that I’m sure some of you, if not nearly all of you know something about. Consequently I want to develop a communication, not a lecture.

Esotericism is a very wide subject in which there are many preconceptions, and there are many theories and beliefs about it. so to begin to talk in a particular vein might not ring a chord, a response, from most of the people here. So I’ve come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is have you express your interest.


For instance, I don’t – I remember the poster that was put up [which?]

see “robot-poster.jpg” at http://selfdefinition.org/rose/posters/

my lectures have been on Zen or something very similar, of an esoteric path, that required the application of the intelligence, the application of doubting, proving, not believing, ascertaining – instead of wishful thinking.


so there are different things you may be curious about

I’ll begin by introducing myself

Started as a Catholic very much of a fanatic only a child right out os grade school

Greek and Latin Summa Theologica

I left the seminary when I was seventeen

finished up at college near Wheeling

looking books and people who knew something

talk to the dead


Dover, Ohio White Lilly Chapel cement block building

minister from Steubenville, Ohio

about eighteen people in the room [same number of apparitions]

lit with a red light it wasn’t thing

it stood about “this” high. [Bob Cergol says “no more than three feet”] he called it Midget – it had a name it responded to. It called me Baldy, which was to kind of ridicule, make jokes with me.


But some of the people there – there were some phenomena there – I don’t like to go into all of them. If you’re curious about that – I’m no longer curious about it.

But naturally – we wanted to verify it, number one, that it was real; we told the fellow that before we went in.


And he became indignant. He was from Muskegon, Michigan. Drove down here. Charged three dollars apiece. So we counted the heads in the place and I think it was around fifty-four dollars that he would have got, for his trip from Muskegon, Michigan down here; so I thought, “This man can’t be in too much of a racket, because it’s not worth it.” He should have had a hundred at least to pay for the trip.


But he was still kind of irritated because we were doubting him. He says, “This thing don’t work good unless you believe.” So strangely enough, the two “people” who came out [were a num and a priest] – I gave him nothing about my background, I was a total stranger to him, I hadn’t seen him materialize before. This meeting where he had materialized these things before was in a minister’s private home in Steubenville, Ohio,


they had run some test on him gave him other clothes

Catholic priest and nun

I tried to speak to him in Latin

that’s the language of the Church for a thousand years

vestments – black cassock surplice band around his neck that looks like a scarf, a stole

“Is Jesus over there?” “We’ve heard he is here.” Or “We’ve heard his name mentioned,” like he was a casual visitor or something.


But anyhow, I went away with the idea that I didn’t need to do any more research and talk to the dead, because the dead didn’t seem to know much


Any answers you got were related to the questions you would ask.

The reason I’m going through this – I dropped that inquiry. I went as far as you could go. You’re lucky in your lifetime is you see a genuine materialization. They are real; there are entities – don’t let any psychologist ever tell you there are not. They’re very real. And they – you can get them in a position where they will manifest, you’ll see them.


But I decided I’d look elsewhere, and I got into yoga. In those ays there were no books on yoga

years later I got into raja yoga

ran into some very profound people who were interested in raja yoga, tuning certain nerve centers of the body to revelation.

based in India

Beas Amritsar or someplace


Beas is a small town in the Amritsar District of Punjab state of India



Although they were very wise men I discovered there was, in my research into the Hindu methods [actually Sikh] that they were sort of making certain sensory organs doors to spiritual awakening. For instance we had a fellow come over here not too long ago and he got quite a movement going

most of them had an “ng” ending

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi – Transcendental Meditation


regardless, there is still

everything has a good beginning. How it turns out later depends on the salesman you hire to spread the word. And they always turn it into a profit, if possible.


Well, this is one of the things that you cannot, should not, ever – and when I was a young man this is one thing I made up my mind to. I would never pay for the truth. There is no price on the truth. There is no amount of money that you could pay that would equal its value. So why take less?

The pretense is that a man could do as he pleases all his life – and believe me, there are a lot of people

“Rose, zap me. How much do you want?”

they have to have a certain mental, physical condition that enables them to receive something

nothing will penetrate

even Christianity was polluted, right after Christ died

St. Peter took it upon himself to punish

Ananias and Sapphira Acts 5:1-11

they both dropped dead, and that was the punishment for keeping nickels out of the collection basket. So I got to wondering, why did they need a collection basket to begin with?


this goes down to a commodity that you’re going to pay for

so somewhere we put a stop to this

Radha Soami

Kirpal Singh

decided that Kirpal Singh was a very honorable man


I had an experience

my hair was falling out, my teeth were falling out

“This is a big ego trip. Why should I be favored, to make this breakthrough, when there are millions of people in the country. And what me think I’m entitled to it?”


I should get married, raise some kids

I didn’t have any luck. So it was procrastinated


But every once in a while I’d find myself in the library, finding a new discovery, a new book that had some revelation in it, and that would throw me back on the track


So I went out to Seattle, Washington for the express purpose of getting married

of course I didn’t know what I was marrying

But anyhow, nothing came of it. There’s a whole amusing story behind it; but we agreed to disagree. Instead of coming back east I took a job

started meditation, had rented a room

all I did was work, go to the library, read a bit maybe, and come home and meditate, and think. And one day I got a pain in the top of my head

I thought, “Boy, how are they going to get the body back to West Virginia?”

I went out the window of this rooming house or hotel, whatever it was

Cascade Mountains

“That’s a nice place to go.”

I went to the Cascade Mountains I went up in that direction


And when I got there things changed; when I looked back I saw humanity, I saw a pyramid of humanity – people climbing the mountain

some intelligence portrayed everyone that ever lived, coming up that mountain

“Is Richard Rose there?”

I found him


I didn’t realize it until years later, that you can’t have two of them. One is the observer and the other is what was observed – a figure identified as my mundane self.


It narrows down to this: I discovered, and anyone can discover, that the observer is not that which is observed

you can study your actions but they are not you; they are objective, when you study them. When you put them outside and put them into the line of focus, they are objective

So that after awhile you get to thinking, “Who’s looking?” And then you realize who’s looking.

the one realization was that this was absolute

confusing titles of these experiences

fall in love


how many have heard of Gurdjieff?

Gurdjieff was one of the greatest psychologists that lived in our time. We have no psychologists today. We have people who play with ideas but who know nothing about the human mind. Gurdjieff did, because he was a very good observer.


And he said there were five classes of men

some were surrealistic

The first class are the instinctive people. The instinctive people are the people who live to live

grab the pleasures of life, which the philosopher finds to be illusion

but they are real to him, they are the only reality there is: sex, booze, fighting, struggling, dominance

what changes him is the love for another person

and all of a sudden his instinctive nature is gone

focus on a guru or creature like Jesus Christ


nevertheless he will be changed by that emotion, once he forgets about himself

he doesn’t decide it; something decides it form

the instinctive people don’t go to any church

from this emotional class of people you fill your churches

addicted to the word love

anybody who protests [to love]

the day I got married I said to my wife, “I will never lie to you. And I will never say that I love you. Because I don’t know what you would understand by the word love. But whatever is in me, I will prove to you – by my actions, not by my protestations.”


And this is the way I think people should live


But regardless, the emotion is good and it’s part of the programming

so that the race will go on, and millions of people will remain on the face of the earth, for purposes that people little realize, what that real purpose is.

when they see what they are, that they’re not guided by common sense

talk to 100 ministers

none of them believe what they’re preaching

it’s just a method of making a living

I went into a temple, or church or whatever they call it. And this minister was up in the front and he pointed my out . I had just come in and I was standing in the back

“There’s a lady coming to you.”

And he described my mother down to a detail

“Does that sound like your mother?” He was psychic, he had some ability

“You’ve got the description but you don’t have the facts; she’s still alive.”

So you discover things like this along the road, and it breaks up your emotional attachment to a belief.

go on the march for a religion

you see in the newsreels the same thing in Iran, where a whole city of people are pounding their chests and are ready to die


So you look a little deeper. And then you find there’s a class of people living – and have lived for over a thousand years – it goes back to the days of Kapila


when the United States only had Indians for inhabitants – American Indians – Kapila was chiseling his philosophy in stone or papyrus or something. But he left a message behind

springboard for all the religions that came out of India

Patanjali c. 2nd century BCE


one of the great figures, the patriarch behind all of the holy men


a whole lot is repetition: one guru tells a disciple and the disciple becomes a guru

I didn’t like to use Indian terminology

what the real meaning of these words are


I had a friend – I worked with him right here in Columbus, Ohio, in fact. he had done a lot of deep reading, and he used to use these words like sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. And I’d say, “Shut up. Don’t bother me [with that]. tell me what you’re talking about, don’t give me these words.” Years later when I was thirty years old I knew what he meant – what he was talking about – he didn’t know what it was either; he was quoting it out of a book. But I knew what sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi was.


And the difference between that and kevala nirvikalpa samadhi

man by the name of Ramana Maharshi

from a place called Aruncala [sp]

Paul Brunton wrote some books about him, and that’s the only reason we know about him


For instance there was a book written by Richard M. Bucke called Cosmic Consciousness

Steubenville minister and his wife next time we had a meeting she came with this book and handed it to me


Incidentally, Bucke is the kevala samadhi – to him the world was transformed

internally he was thrilled, but he was not necessarily transformed

drop a bucket into the well bucket is drawn out

sahaja is where the drop of water falls into the ocean

eternally one with the ocean

a very good analogy for the Western mind to pick up, because the Indian words meant nothing


So that is the – that happened when I was thirty years old. Ad a few years later, I would try to contact people

got into the contracting business

I learned after awhile to keep my mouth shut

been smoking the wrong type of dope


But I got in touch with a Zen teacher. And I didn’t get in touch with him – because – Zen also – this is the maximum experience in Zen.

a lot of words used, like enlightenment

I’ve heard people who have taken acid and said, “I’ve been enlightened.” So will he if he sticks his finger in an electric socket, hr’ll be enlightened too


So you have to define what happens. And I didn’t expect to go any deeper into my experience, but I wondered, how could I talk to other people. How do you talk to other people? How do you – first of all, know that they have the same vocabulary

this was back in the, well, 1947 – 1950

We were having rough times. In 1938 we went to war – at least there was a conscription of men – and from that time on there was pretty much trauma in the country. nothing was moving much

1938 Hitler invades Austria

1940 began peacetime draft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States#World_War_II

Nothing was moving much except – for instance here in Columbus we were putting out the beginnings of the Black Widow, the Helldiver airplanes



in Columbus, Ohio; they had their factory out there. So everybody was busy working in the war planes


And then after that we had reconstruction, and there were no books on the market

no books available on this type of philosophy

everybody should go into defining themselves. And why don’t they define themselves?

Well, they have a little hunch that that preacher i phony

San Antonio, Texas, met a minister there

wrote a thesis on Spirtualism

I said, “Why do you go to church?”

and this one man said to me, “To keep my kids out of jail.” I thought, “Boy, this is sad. You’ve got to twist this kid’s head around 360 degrees to keep him out of jail? Maybe he’s better off dead.” Who knows? Maybe he’ll go to jail, because of his fanaticism


But I saw it was very difficult to communicate. Because number one, the few books that came out, very few people had read them. The stuff that sells today is still the same as it was then: romance number one, adventure number two, and detective mysteries, that sort of thing


And I decided that Zen had the best language; the language was not a preaching, it was of asking questions. And this is the technique.

when a kid is studying mathematics

So consequently, what you have to do, you’re working for the benefit of the individual, not for membership in your church.

his waking up is your pay. And if you want pay besides that, you want to get into another business

I came to certain conclusion

number one there’s no price on truth; you don’t pay preachers.

pay for the electric

the other thing is, you do not become impressed by rituals, robes, titles, you know – this is nonsense; we’re all creatures of the mud, hoping to find that there’s a spark inside that pile of mud


So when you set these guidelines in your searching, you’re not going to be dragged back into an emotional thing,

the next, after the emotional level is the intellectual level, and that’s where you start saying, “Well let’s do mathematics, astrology numerology

measuring the distance between places in the great pyramids of Egypt

or even read futuristic type of science fiction


Once you start to block that out, you find there’s not much of a field left

incidentally, the path to realization is not the accumulation of wisdom. You cannot learn anything when it comes to these final truths. You can only become it. You do not learn the truth, you become the truth.

And after many years of discounting the Bible and the Christian faith

something in the Bible

“I am the way, the truth and the life.”

he didn’t say, “I discovered the truth,” he said, “I am the truth.”

But looking in hindsight, I didn’t have an experience, I was an experience. What was left of me was an experience.


But you do not learn. Learning is confused by other learning. Learning is confused by egos that would like to believe that the rock candy mountain is more important


Zen enabled me to transmit. I don’t want to tie up what little time we have tonight and go through all the phases and tricks of Zen

Q &A

I’d like for some of you to ask some of the questions that are running through your head right now. Because this will be the beginning of the real communication here.

Q. you talk about the 4 questions – where are you at right now? more stable?

R. Yes, but why do you think I could translate to you how I define myself? What you want is a definition of my defining, isn’t it?

Q. Yes

R. These are things, you know, does a man – do not people go down the street sometimes and point at a man and say, “That’s an honest man.”? Or some girl, and say, “That girl’s a virgin.” How does he define her? How does he define her as a virgin? He’s right. He may be absolutely right. Percentage-wise – he may miss one out of fifty or so. But of course he doesn’t pick fifty virgins – there aren’t that many. But how does he do that? how does he know it?


And that’s what I say. This is the – it’s a good thing you ask that

basically, what you will know about me is through your intuition

if you’re asking some way to ascertain this

I’ve done my best to give it to you with the word intuition

there are no psychology books that say, “This plus this equals that.” We study the human mind. There is no – for instance

then all you have to do is pump that brain full of chemicals

change the behavioral petterns

changing the direction of their social lives


there’s not a psychologist in the country who knows what thought is

what sanity is, or insanity. Get me one who defines it

normal curve, one clear off to the left

The purpose [?] of defining in the final analysis will be when you become one with the subject – or the object, whichever you wish to call it.


[tape ends 45:35]

[break in tape]

File 2

R. No, because you feel like a worm on the earth. And you’d like to be something a little better than a worm. And you want to know whether there is something better up ahead, rather than just living like a worm. We all hunger for definition. Every – you go to tramp on a worm and watch – they try to get away from you. They’re not welcoming ecstasy. We’re programmed. We’re programmed to squirm like worms. But we are not programmed to define ourselves. And this is where it takes a strong curiosity, a strong desire, a strong determination to embark on a subjective search.

And of course as you go along you apply – some things are manifest – you can go to a certain religion, and you’ll find that the reason why all the people are in that monastery, for instance – you’ll find the least common denominator, or most common denominator. And that’s scientific appraisal then. You say, “Well, now, I judge – I don’t want any parts of that monastery because these people are not searching for their definition. Or they’re not preaching the truth, they’re running a business. And this isn’t what I want. I don’t want a business, I want an answer.”


I maintain that there’s an urge in every animal to figure out, “How did I get here? What’s happening? Where am I going?” And that’s the reason, it’s programming. If it weren’t for that curiosity – I imagine, I sometimes think that the engineers were reluctant to put that quality in the man or the animal, but they had to, or he’d have stumbled over cliffs and stuff and died. He would have had no fear. He had to have a fear and an instinctive pattern even so his intuition would say, “Don’t walk too close to the edge.” Or, “Don’t tangle with the bigger cats.”

Q. You mention about meditation and your experience. What exactly do you ...?

R. Meditation?

Q. Yes.

R. I have a strong belief that nearly all the meditation things put out today are in the wrong direction. Because the instruction is to meditate, well, for instance, this TM thing was “bong,” “gong,” and so on, to meditate on a noise. You’re also supposed to be upbeat or supportive and meditate on happiness, bliss and all this nonsense. We’d like, we’re always hoping for some eternal titillation. As I said, heaven to a lot of people must be a dream, of where there are these little cherubs flying around through all eternity with these old feather dusters, tickling their bottoms as they pass, to keep them happy for centuries. That’s heaven.


So we’re stuck with a lot of these definitions, implications – they imply that we’re going to be happy forever. Why? What’s happiness? When you suffer so much pain and somebody takes away the pain, you’re happy. And then when you indulge too much in that which takes away the pain, you’ll get unhappy again. So that cycle is not observed by too many people. They still go back, stick their head in the gears and suffer pain, and the only solution for it – and of course that’s the lifestyle of the alcoholic in particular. When he starts drinking he has to, he tries to get away from it and he goes through tremendous suffering then, and the only thing that will ultimately cure it is another drink. And he feels pleasure then; he’s in charge again once more whgen he gets that drink, for a few hours.

I hope I’m not confusing you.


Q. Your experience in enlightenment is interesting, but do you use this as some sort of baseline to live your life? Or do you ??

R. I have no trouble living my life. If goes by. It goes right by me.

Q. Does it affect the way you live?

R. Not too much. They have an old saying in Zen, that before you have your experience and before you reach things, the mountains are mountains and the valleys are valleys. In your experience the mountains and valleys are no longer there. But when you come back, the mountains are once more mountains and the valleys are valleys. Meaning that when you come back, believe me, you’ll still go to the toilet like any other animal. There’s nothing divine, quite yet.


I’ve got a hunch at what you’re asking for is a change, does it affect a change on you. I’d say so, yes, because the only sane excuse I could give for coming here and talking to you tonight is that I’m crazy. Because other people aren’t doing it. So I’m not with the normal curve. There are only one in a million people who believe in following this exactly the way I follow it. So consequently, I don’t live the way other people live

Q. Do you meditate?

R. No. No, no.

Q. Did you stop?

R. No, I never stopped. But I don’t do it deliberately. It happens.

Q. When you’re sitting down? When do you meditate?

R. I’m a peripatetic. I got my best thoughts walking. Because I was hypothyroid, I’m apt to go to sleep if I sat down. And of course this yogi posture doesn’t let you go to sleep so much, because if you do you might twist a leg when you roll over. You back yourself up against a wall and you won’t fall back that way, but it keeps you awake a little better. No, But meditation should only be done for the purpose of observing pain in the past; don’t meditate and think you’re going to make yourself happy, that you’re going to change the face of the universe or appeal to some mysterious character called God.


You know, they said in West Virginia one time, the best definition I ever heard of God, was when one of these guys came up to vote, and they said, you know, they had a literacy test. And he said, ‘What do you mean?” And they said, “Well, you’re supposed to have a certain literacy test before you can vote.” And he said, “Okay, I guess I’m literate.” “Well, who was Abraham Lincoln?” He said, “He never lived around here.” “Did you ever hear of George Washington?” “Nope, he’s not one of my relatives.” “Did you ever hear of God?” And he said, “Is his last name Damn?” So that’s theology in West Virginia.

I interrupted your thinking, right?


Q. Do you feel you’ve learned all the truth now?

R. I know everything, but I don’t know the number of hairs on your head. So that’s my answer to your question.

Q. What’s the meaning of your life?

R. I don’t know. I can’t describe it. I know what I’m trying to do. I’m trying to find – and I know the mathematical percentages of people who will do the things I’m doing, will find the things I’ve discovered, and they’re microscopic. I know that. I hope sometime before I die that I have met somebody – I may already have met him; we have people in the groups – that will pick up the same realization and do the same thing. That’s all you can do. The people are out there, and there has to be some encouragement to – because one of the first things that happens to you is you say, “Hey, who am I to discover anything? Why would it be me?” There are 200 million people in this country alone. One out of 200 million. Well, according to Bucke only one in a million. According to Bucke only one in a million found out the kevala samadhi, the cosmic consciousness. So figure it out, the people who actually have the experience


And why? It’s because they’re focused on their programming – their programming to be good animals. Obey the laws, and when the time comes you put your head in the guillotine, and leave a fertile spot on the ground. That’s supposed to be the role of everybody on earth. We talk it up among ourselves, that everybody’s supposed to do something for society. Why? What can we do for society? You mean we’re going to change things? I get the feeling all the time that we’re all being manipulated. We are all being manipulated.


And – well, you think for yourself what the results of it are. There for awhile every 20 years we had a bloodletting. I don’t think anybody in the world planned that. But I believe it’s programmed. Because – they say the man upstairs observes the fall of the sparrow; can’t he see 20 million people dying in Europe?


The one man – one man I met who was enlightened, Paul Wood, he was from Texas. [bell rings again] [Do those bells mean anything? Is that a fire or anything? ] He was a Protestant so he had read the Bible, and he relied on the Bible for his inspiration. And he was an aviator, he was a bombardier on one of our planes, and he bombed one of those towns over in Japan. I don’t know which one it as, it’s been too long ago. And he killed a lot of people. I think in one town they killed 80,000 people with one bomb. [Remove this, can’t find any mention of Wood in the atomic bomb crews.]

And when he landed he realized what he’d done, and he started to ask himself questions. And he didn’t get answers. And he thought he had been a good boy, he always went to church, he’d been fair with his fellow man, he thought he was defending his country, so he was forced into this role. But at the same time it was very troublesome. He didn’t have an answer. He didn’t have the answer for this business of dropping this enormous egg on these people. And his commanding officer told him, “You need some rest and relaxation, and we’re going to send you back home.” I guess he was talking strangely.


So he came back to Texas. He was from San Antonio. He had been married, from before he was in the Army. He had a couple of children. But he couldn’t get this out of his head. but he said he’d lose one job after another. I think he was drinking a little bit too, perhaps. His wife got fed up with him. She left; she couldn’t stand it any more. And he took a job as a salesman in n automobile dealership. And he said that he couldn’t, no matter where he was at, it was just torturing him. He had to solve this problem that was there.


And he put his head down on the table or the desk or whatever it was and he prayed for God to kill him. He said, “Take me out of here.” He passed out. He said he woke up in the hospital. After he woke up, [he said] he saw the beginning and the end of history. And he observed wars, battlefields. He’d be walking down the street with you, and he’d tell you, he’d be watching the battle of Gettysburg or some Civil War battle. And of course naturally what you think is, “This guy’s buggy.” But he was perfectly sane.


Now he wanted to convey this to people. What had happened was, he said that when he was working at this automobile dealership that he kept repeating – because he had been taught this as a Bible student, that any time you’re in trouble “pray thusly,” and what followed was the Lord’s Prayer. So he would just pray the Lord’s Prayer, over and over and over and over.

And whether that was the catalyst or not, I don’t know. People get on the trail by different means. No man is the same, and consequently there will be many little incidents that are different from other people’s enlightenment trip. But this man had seen everything. Not only that, but coupled with this there’s a certain power; this we don’t understand. And I even think sometimes it’s a temptation. That’s an ego trip. You’ve got to watch that.

Because I know when our group was young, this was back in 1972, we had people come from all over the east. I’ve got a farm in West Virginia and we’d meet at the farm. We’d sit around, and people would get headaches, and I’d take their headache away. One man became possessed, sitting there. I went over and took the bug out. I took the bug out, this entity, through the top of one man’s head and it nearly killed me. I mean I was useless for about an hour. And I thought, “What’s the purpose of this? There’s no purpose in this. This is nonsense. I’m going to get the fat headed idea that I’m a healer. I didn’t come to be a healer, I came to convey some formula for people, not to heal headaches, not to see through bodies.” Some of that happened too.


So I brushed it aside and went back to just philosophy: setting up some system by which a person would be curious enough to set up what I call a ways and means committee to find out. There’s a bit of scientific, not scientific but orderly approach to it. And when, if you get this thing – “Sure, I want to know this. But how?“

Okay, that’s what you want to know next, first. How? How do I do it? Books, teachers, some practice? Some daily practice to keep your head on something?

There are certain things, first of all, that you divest yourself of – that which distracts. Anything that distracts you. And other little plumber’s laws: if you don’t want to lose the pressure in your water pipe, turn the spigot off. People with running spigots don’t amass much in the line of intuition. And you have to be under pressure.


We were talking about meditation – your meditation should be confrontational; by that I mean, don’t think about the good times you had, or the glorious times that you’re going to have from pronouncing some sonorous word over and over and over. Repetition is autohypnosis.

You pick a memory – you go back, you sit there long enough it will come back to you. What happened? You got punched in the nose. You got kicked. The cop hit you on the head. Or your wife threw you out. Of course you go back further, it’s childhood trauma, something of that sort.

But you’ll see back there where this incident changed your direction. That from a peaceful person you became homicidal almost; you wanted to break down the doors, destroy this type of opposition. And when you see it, that you’ve been, it’s all an ego trip, you drop it, and clarity comes in. And you no longer hate the person. You think, “That poor devil was going through as bad of trouble as I was going through.” So you meet [met?] head on. And this is what real meditation does for you.

But just to visualize – visualization is the curse, not the panacea. A lot of people want to sit and visualize a million dollars. You want to read something that’s to the point, nothing spiritual about it in a way; in a way it is too, because it’s harmonious with spiritual laws. Napoleon Hill’s Think and Grow Rich. Of course, you don’t have to grow rich, you can grow smart. Take your choice. But you can apply this same thing. If you want to apply this to money you cn make money. But money is a curse. Because – as long as you don’t have a lot, it’s not too much of a curse. But when you get a lot, believe me, it’s the master then.


Q. ... an honorable way to spend your time is finding yourself and becoming one with yourself. But a lot of the problem with doing this is the fact that we have these physical and animal needs and instincts. What do you think is the purpose of our essence-consciousness being manifested in this physical reality?

R. We’ve been had. Very simple. We’ve been had. We are put here – we’re guessing all sorts of things as to why we’re here – we’re not getting the right answer. And it’s very possible we’re here for a multiple purpose. There’s a certain energy that humans produce which attracts, if not feeds – I’m saying this very carefully – entities from another dimension. Why? I don’t know. Just like I said to the lady, there are a lot of things I don’t know.

When I was in my experience I saw everything, but I don’t know how many hairs are on your head. I don’t know what all these little details are of this programming, this engineering. There’s tremendously complex engineering. If you think of the human body, your neurotransmitters, they’ve got into stuff that – I worked as a chemist and we never heard of a thing called neurotransmitter. And the interlocking machinery, of the particles in a drop of blood, it’s utterly amazing. There is no evolution that could have brought that about


In the book The Albigen Papers I mention somewhere where I can see no connection between the lizard and the flying lizard. Because – the idea is that they adjusted according to their environment. Meaning that they had predators, so they had to grow wings to escape the predators. Believe me, it takes a million years for a lizard to develop into a winged lizard. In the meantime, the predators would have them all eaten. The wings wouldn’t have got them up; they would have had to start flapping their hands, like Red Skelton. It would never get you off the ground.


Q. When you speak of the programming, you’re definitely not speaking of something of a DNA-type of consciousness ...

R. No, no ...

Q. ... you’re speaking of something that ... as consciousness as an entity

R. Right. And we – there’s a – people have sort of picked this up, and that’s the reason some people will, they sense it so they’ll get into things like astrology; they say, “Maybe there’s some key, that we can see why this person is more liable to a certain thing than another person.

People have that feeling. They have the feeling that they’re – where I notice it more distinctly is in children. If you watch the behavior of little children, you’ll see them doing things. You don’t think kids have any evaluation of life – and I’m talking about kids five, six, seven years old.

I was in an orphanage once; I stayed in an orphanage so I could be close to the school that I was supposed to go to. I was just a child. And a little boy would go to the door [window?] and he’d look out at this [winter] time of year, and it would start to snow. And he’s chant this over and over: “Snow, snow go away, come again some other day.” And I wanted to go sled riding. So I said to him, “What are you doing? You’re messing it up.” He said, “No, no; if it knows you want it to snow, it will not snow.”


See what was going through his head? That somewhere deep in nature there was something perverse to the benefit of man. And we’ve got to go through twists, turns, magical words, incantations, denials, God knows what. Sacrifice your cousin, light him up, whatever it takes. But that somewhere there’s something behind the scenes, all the time, that you can’t keep up; you can’t put your hand on it. So that’s another hazard you’ve got to get by

When you find out that these things are moving you in a certain direction you have to freeze the motion. You stop it. You find out why they want to interrupt your, or influence you. You find out why and then you call a halt to the whole procedure.


In other words, if it’s booze, just quit taking booze. In other words, I think a lot of people get into alcohol and narcotics because of the, something bothers them. They feel that there’s something working on them. And of course you’ve got to meet it head-on, that’s all, when that occurs.

I don’t know what the percentage of people is, but a lot of people I talk to have mentioned this; they’ve heard voices, telling them what to do. Son of Sam, classic example. Remember Son of Sam anybody? Berkowitz, killed some people up in New York. And he had an entity that told him; several entities. They wanted the blood. So whatever Berkowitz was taking, don’t ever take it.


Q. You mentioned intuitions – do you see that as a direct knowing that’s different from mind ?? ?? ??

R. I can’t hear you too well, but I’ll try to answer you.

Q. I was curious about intuition; it seems you were saying it’s a more direct way of knowing.


R. Yes, I have a book over here, and the title of the book is Direct-Mind Experience. That there’s a way you can actually use a direct-mind head to communicate, to pick up what people are thinking. I think animals do it, and you can do it with animals. You can do it with humans too, but humans have a lot of complexity going on in their head; you don’t know whether they’re thinking about going to work or if they’re thinking about how they have to fix the roof the next day. We have so many things that take up our time, that it’s very difficult to pick up what people are thinking, words. [?] I think with animals it’s much more simple. And I think animals spend a lot of time wondering about who they are. If you’re ever around a herd of animals watch them. They don’t eat all the time. Sometimes they’ll stop eating and they’ll stand there very quietly. And they’ll have an expression on their face; they’ll be just almost frozen in thought. Of course I could be, I have no proof of what they’re thinking. But I just have that feeling: it’s a direct-mind thing.


I remember one time – you run into this in everyday life: two boxers are fighting – they one who’s able to pick up the other guy’s mind will win

what his control of fear is, he’ll win


Q. ?

R. I don’t know. Those are two strange words to me.

Q. ?

R. No, no. The reason these thing are said – and they’re very important – in the business of transmission what happens is – the person is wanting to know what you’re doing – since I can talk here for six hours and there’s no way I can give you a diagram, a blueprint

But through a direct-mind experience, you’re there.


If you get in contact with my mind at a certain time, when I’m thinking of this, you’ll know exactly what I’m talking about


Q. Is intuition a direct link that you make?

R. No, intuition is a method of choosing among many possibilities. Intuition is applied all the way up the line – as to whether you should live this type of life or not live this type of live. Or whether you should smoke cigarettes or chew tobacco. The biggest part of our life is choosing between uncertainties, and hoping that we eventually dodge the one that’s going to do the most damage


Q. ... channeling

R. Oh, ho, ho. Channeling is an evil. Channeling is an evil, it’s dangerous. Because you’re throwing yourself open

I can’t see any safeguard that a person who wants to practice mediumship can take to protect himself. When you open the door, what happens? What’s out in the jungle?

This is all done by putting yourself in a mood of acceptance


For instance, one woman had a man who was 26,000 years old, and he was speaking English




Did it take him 26,000 years to learn English? Is that the reason he didn’t show up before? And he can only come through by the grace of this one human being?


And what kind of information is given?

And after awhile people get wise to it


But the damage is not done to the public; they lose a bit of money, but the damage is also done to the person who gets into it. Because pretty soon they obey the voices. They obey the voices. Just like a voice is to an alcoholic, to have a drink: “One more won’t hurt you.” But that wants him under control. That voice wants him destroyed.


Q. Is there a reason you could see that such a voice would want that?

R. Sure there’s a reason. I don’t know what it is; but it seems like we’re in a very – it’s like, what do you call it? Predators. We’re in predatory environment, in which – it seems too that, another thing – I don’t think people pay much attention to this. Because prior to the turn of the century, wars were mostly skirmishes, compared to the types of wars we’ve had since the turn of the century.


fourteen or sixteen million Russians killed fighting World War II, and twenty million of them were killed by Stalin, after, around that time. Literally, this man ordered his population liquidated. In a conversation he had with the Chinese, he said – they said, “How can we make a prosperous nation?” The Chinese. And Stalin says, “Kill a hundred million.” He may have been a saint in some lower region, some kingdom that we know nothing about.


Q. Do you think ...

R. What’s new is they get twenty million. It used to be only two or three hundred

Q. Well, technology is

R. Well, we’re getting over- ... it’s just like a farmer’s got a pen full of hogs and he doesn’t have enough to feed them, and he starts eating them or killing them.


But refuse to believe of course that there’s anything greater than ourselves. e’re so wrapped up. This is amazing. And the people don’t stop to think about it. Look at our technology. It’s unbelievable the technology that has come up. I worked as a chemist, and there’s chemical technology today that I know nothing about.

what do we know about essence?


And what do we want to know? Nobody wants to know. It’s getting to the top of the maggot pile. People say that: “It’s just a matter of getting to the top of the maggot pile.” And of course wwhen you get to the top you’re ready to die.


Q. Two questions ... manipulated, almost being farmed, for an energy

R. I’m saying that’s a possibility; I don’t know it for sure

Gurdjieff had this same concept

this subtle energy was the only thing they could pipe off to a planet

substance would be the beginning of life on a planet.

there has to be a reason for the type of enslavement that we have on this planet.

try to be yourself, alone, sometime. Try to cut yourself off from the rest of society – I don’t mean be a guy sitting on top of a mountain or anything like that. But you’ll find out that you’re continually dragged into the pigpen with the pigs.


Q. I have another question ... drugs or chemicals – impetus toward opening up or breaking down the doors

not as a recreational

R. Right. But you see, how are you going to control it.

Q. Right

R. To give you an example, I said the door opened for my lectures – I never could run into two people – there was no such thing as this many people in a room with me before 1962, 1972 I mean.


It wasn’t until some people had tasted a different reality – they came away believing they had tasted another reality. they didn’t know what it was; they were confused

but this is what opened the door. Especially LSD.


Q. mescaline

R. Right, right. marijuana peyote

I don’t know what it did for thos people; I didn’t see any great religion come out of it.


R. but what you see is a reality. You see something and – when you’re in the experience – and when you come out of the experience you see that that reality – you can’t define it but you know very well you were someplace else that’s just as valid or more valid than this.


They became just like mops; they mopped up all the young people’s money, with their hypnotic approach.


nothing but a monotonic [?] intonation

Pentecostal revival you’ll see the same intoxication, the same reality present itself; and it does something, but it fades away


But I think that it did – this has provoked something

the mob started putting cocaine and heroin in the marijuana so they’d get addicted

that’s mental death. It’s not inspiration.


Q. What is the real purpose of our life?

R. I don’t know. I don’t know.


R. Well, I’ll tell you something

one aspect of the thing – we created ourself. Looking from the mountain, the view from the mountain. But in everyday life we don’t accept this. We can’t. Because we’re alienated from the center. My belief is of course that the – first that it’s an illusion.


all of this is an illusion. But it’s the greatest reality we can possibly think of. It’s a very painful illusion sometimes, a nightmare


In other words, when the sun goes out, there is no longer any time; and when there is no other[?] time, there’s no longer any relative world

we have adjusted to a 365-day time clock

when you close your eyes in death, the universe disappears


If you have something that you think can be answered, let’s say with some degree of illumination or at lease sensible communication, why that’s what I’m hoping for. I’m hoping that I can communicate with you


But – I know this is what goes through your head – these things are not tied together. the fact that the world is illusion, the fact that we must treat this illusion with very great care – because it can blow up in our face

cause trauma. But trauma ends in death, and we find that in death there is no trauma.


And I don’t know whether everyone experiences the same thing in death

most of the schools of thought

someone has been thoughtful enough to write down their experience; and that pretty much is consistent.

[tape ends 45:36]

File 3


… histories, see. And one of the consistency – you do not find God, you become God. The atman and the Brahman are one. Same as in Christian religion.

This is what happened and I understood it. But once you come back you have to live in this theater once more.

Q. entities?

R. I don’t know. Interlocking dimensions, things that can’t be seen. Painted on church ceilings. They have an impact on us. Servants or masters?

Whatever dimension they’re in, that dimension disappears also.

Instinctive person goes nowhere. Emotional go to humanity, relatives.

Continuation – what does it lead to. Oriental aimed at the greater.

Philosophical – develop a place shut out emotional, get beyond.


Man said, “When I get to the point where I can no longer have sex I want to be dead.” – identified, no inquiry, no concept of inquiry.

When I need to have that, let me be dead. I would rather be dead than hooked.

Q. Nostalgia, window to soul.


Certain moods open certain doors for us. In Direct-Mind Experience

Mot dangerous thing we have is moods.

3 basic directions – acquisition, nostalgic – Jung talked about archetypical memories, something you touched.

Certain things will key that in. Language of the soul – we can’t speak English to the soul.

Memories. Poetry – Hebrides.

Nostalgia can cause a spiritual change.

In life we get on course, get away from family.

Carries over into pre-natal and post-death episodes.

Illumination as a result.

Soul finds itself.

Q. Memories?

11:40 No, just a mood.

Once that reality comes the body doesn’t matter – like you’ve been to the cinema.


Each man is an essence of what it can create.

Paul Wood.

Appolinius of Tyanna – hit him again.

When this happened to me in Seattle I was alone.


Q. astral projection

Robert Monroe – big astral trip going to woman in apartment above.


People who wanted to be mediums become possessed. Sending out an invitation.

Story in Columbus – Billy Milligan. objects floating around the room, showing its power.

Sam Berkowitz possessed. said they wanted blood in court

Doesn’t haven from hypnosis.

Catholic Church has a routine – Melleus Malificarum.

It will produce information that the victim doesn’t know.

Church procedures is to damn the sopirit back to hell.

Just talk to them, “You are trespassing and you know it, and that’s not fail.

Al was at one. Kid started growling like a dog.

“Your body is a temple.”

People are not talking to themselves. They’ve got company.

Q. on Christ.


Are you through with those cameras? Can you turn out those lights?

Q more on Christ

The man had some experience where he knew you had to become the truth, not learn it.

Why did they go out preaching?

Tell a guy how to stay on the road, not prescribe how to live.


Q. cosmic consciousness – Kingdom of God, and become like a child.

Tremendous wisdom.

Child is angelic – better dimension.

Infant has a better perception

What percentage of what you think about today was spiritual?


Children don’t die hard.

“Jesus was here. he said he would take me.”

Something appeared to him in human form that he trusted.

Baby is watching things we don’t see. Parent pulls them out.

We brainwash them into accepting a robot form of life.


Q. defining oneself

I don’t know that you can create things.


Meeting announcement. – Chuck Conrad.

Q. what are some tips for helping us to define ourselves.

Get the Albigen Papers, things you trip over every day.

Falling for some bait. Once you realize that you’re start looking for them. Only way to freedom?

Q. artistic practice

You can only do that if you know the language you have to use.

Everybody’s got a blind spot.

Q. any way to communicate

yes, direct-mind experience, direct-mind relationship

Physical change when this happens – electrical voltage.

Story about Jane Slater.

She thought I was an egghead. She stayed out in the kitchen.

came through closed door. I felt this voltage and she hit the floor.

She saw the same thing Bucke did. Said to her husband, ‘I know you don’t exist.”

Tremendous changes in people.

“I’m inside your head.”

“You’ve been there all day.”

Confirmed the voltage.

Realization. She saw the world as illusion.


If you reach sahaja samadhi you will be one with God and there’s nobody there except that which you wish to see.

Q. that’s awesome

Try it sometime.

The only existence some would understand is reincarnation.


You can’t believe what I’m saying. Don’t rest on it.

I’d have to have a pretty good reason for sitting here telling you a bunch of lies.

Myrtle Beach to dentist. Two other members showed up. Augie showed up. Down in Raleigh now.

7 o’clock - Started talking 7 pm to 2 AM – 17 people showed up.

Metamorphosis occurred.

We all know that you can’t move but this is all unnecessary.

You can’t drown one vice with another. They ake friends and share the carcass.

Do something every day – same time every day walk around the block.

The next day at 6:59 the phone will ring.

Do for 30 days without any interference. You’re going to feel power – you’re in charge.

Then enlarge it.

With that power you break up the cigarette habit.

Then you go home and shoot your wife, and you’re free.

File 4 - 2 min only


But we don't take charge of our body. Some other force has charge of it.


[somebody announces end]


R. Thank you.