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Title 1984-0506-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Cleveland
Recorded date May 6, 1984
Location Cleveland, Ohio
Number of tapes
Other recorders audible?
Alternate versions exist?
No. of MP3 files 4 files + intro = 5 files
Total time 3 min + 43 + 46 + 46 + 36
Transcription status
Link to distribution copy http://distribution.direct-mind.org/
Link to PDF http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?
Published on which website?
Remarks Note - Sandy worked on Columbus May 2, not Cleveland May 6
Audio quality
Identifiable voices
URL at direct-mind.org https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php?title=1984-0506-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Cleveland
For access, send email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp 20150209163358


Peace of mind and success without regret

Starts with joke about Art Mandel and reducing the size of the doors.

In Jaqua collection this is titled "undated-Cleveland" and files are "1 Rose - Cleveland - no date.mp3" etc.

Date conflict: Jake undated, Rob Ayers says 5/11/84, the rest are 5/6/84 == Inventory + PS, Gary,

However the RA tapes have typewriter labels.

These are the lecture series


1984-0418-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Oakland-PA Wednesday

1984-0426-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Irwin-PA Thursday

1984-0428-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Akron Saturday

1984-0502-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Columbus Wednesday

[Columbus a.k.a. "Happiness"]

1984-0506-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Cleveland * Sunday

1984-0511-Peace-of-Mind-Cleveland - RA date, typed label - Friday

  • inventory says 5/6 not 5/11. May 6 is Sunday. May 11 is Friday.

Using PS version for times

45 minutes per side

File 1

Art was too modest to mention things I did for him. He lived in a house that had five foot doors, or four and a half foot, and he didn’t know what to do about it. So with a little magic I reduced him down to where he could get through them.

I’m going to ask you a question before we start, since time is valuable, for you, and for me too. There are two directions that we can always take. And one of them is mine which I cook up ahead of time, and the other one is yours. I would like to have a poll, having an informal to the point communication with you or a long endless talk which may relate to you or which may not. I would prefer to relate. Maybe we can get a show of hands. Would you like to spend the evening together answering questions, you ask the questions you wish, to bring out whatever you’re interested in, you name the direction and we’ll carry it from there, as opposed to me perhaps giving an hour which you may have difficulty relating to.

Q. You had mentioned having mystical experiences of your own. I’d be interested in learning more about that.

R. Ok let’s put up our hands if we’d like to follow a formal pattern or an informal pattern. Formal pattern. [hands].

Q. Can we begin formally and end informally?

R. Well, if I get started talking it might end informally at ten or eleven o’clock tonight.

The talk tonight is centered around peace of mind and success without regret. In other words, I don’t consider success [to be] success if we have regrets. Coupled with this, I think you can attain anything that you wish. And this is taking in a broad sweep, when you say that you can attain anything you wish to attain. I’m rather slow to encourage people to attain things that will cause them trouble later on. I think a lot of people have successes, or directions in life, which ...

So my personal life - I am not a millionaire and the older I get I’m very happy that I don’t have to look after that much wealth. It would be a burden and it is a burden I think to everybody if you have very much of it. That is, it becomes a burden rather than something you can use.

Carnegie down in Pittsburgh one time tried to give away something like five hundred million dollars and he said it was the hardest work he ever did. He had no people to leave it to and he literally every day – he had a crew of people trying to – he didn’t want to waste it so he put it in grants for high schools and libraries, and all over Pittsburgh and western Pennsylvania you’ll find Carnegie – what was it, you’ll find Carnegie University there. So this was an obsession of his, to get rid of the obsession. He had a second obsession to get rid of the first one.


So my point is basically, “What do you want?”

For instance, we got a diversified group of people here, because you’ve got all different things you want. Not that there’s any other great diversification except that everybody wants something different. Of course, that’s the difficulty in domestic living. The reason why we don’t have domestic harmony is because the people in the family want different things. Every year the divorce rates increase, and by the hundreds of thousands and the unmarried status is increasing in people because a lot of them have honestly come to the conclusion that they aren’t going to harmonize and they recognize the fact that they don’t want the same thing.

The whole thing behind functioning is to find people who dream the same dream. You can’t go into business with a man who doesn’t dream the same dream that you do. And this goes clear into philosophy. I apply what I learned in philosophy. All of the things that I apply what I learned from philosophy in any walk of life.

If you want to find something out in a philosophical context you go down to the library and find the proper word in the card catalogue. You find your fellows in whatever group you’re dealing with. And philosophy is the same way. Fellows in philosophy are few and far between.

Richard Bucke a few years ago wrote a book called cosmic consciousness and he estimated then that one in a million people would care to follow that direction. I’ve written a book have find the book and I think the book is rather pertinent to the subject and I tried to circulate it across the country and have given lectures from Boston to LA.

I’ve got a pretty good reaction as to how many books like that could sell. A publisher in New York told me that if I sold 500 in my lifetime, I’d be lucky. Because philosophy books don’t sell

This philosophy that I have come as a result of going to the point of tackling what I think is the hardest job on earth. And that is to get a concrete answer from an abstract direction.

We’re all looking for an answer. This all comes from a dissatisfaction of ourselves is a lack of knowledge of ourselves. It doesn’t do any good to accumulate 1 million dollars if you don’t understand yourself.

I give n example of great successes Take Richard Nixon. They were somehow successful but it didn’t pay off. It didn’t give them peace of mind.

The knowledge on a psychological level. The reason why I say knowledge on a psychological level is that we could attain a certain amount of success and after we get it we find that it interferes with that what we really want to do.

I maintain that this is a formula. If you want to succeed with whatever you want to so don’t start with a fiction. Start with the facts of yourself. And if you have to spend some time finding out who’s talking. Who’s looking at you from the mirror, I think it pays to spend that time.

Because what happens is we have a concatenation of dreams and accomplishments. We go from one raise in pay to another raise in pay to maybe the vice president of a company. You can be caught in a squirrel cage. So when a fellow finds out that he doesn’t want to be where he’s at much less promoted any further.

There are little alarm clocks that you can listen to occasionally. The alarm clocks only rings between the period of time between dawn and daylight. And when you wake up in the morning and you listen to yourself you’ll see that there is a tremendous appraisal at that time because you’re coming in from zero. Your computer’s been asleep. When you wake up your going to get a clear reading. And you get so clear of a reading that you get two shots of whiskey to get out the door.

Top get away from it. So you could go out and get into this farce that you started 20 years ago. When you made your first mortgage commitment. So this is the direction we were supposed to go in tonight.

Now, I want you to pick it up from there and put me in your direction.

Q: Can you describe how you found yourself?

A: Yes but I think it would be a waste of time because I don’t know how you can apply it to yourself. I was 21 year of age when I made a total commitment to put everything else aside and discover who I was. I started in college and majored in chemistry. I had this egotistical idea that I was going to get into the analyzation of matter and just break down the matter to a force field into who knows what. And out of that would pop out something that would be God.

And then I say, hey, where do you live? I started off in Baltimore as a chemist. I saw that there were hundreds of years. Before you can start with the analyzation of matter. And I thought that you could make it in this lifetime.

It had no meaning if you were just a fragment of a ladder that goes on to a site in the clouds. I had read some theology when I was younger about the opportunities that a man might have to discover God or find his nature. God is a bad word because god is us. It is when you find it.

Thomas Aquinas was a great theologian, and he came up with this idea that to prove the existence of the soul to prove the existence of God. And it turned out to be a total fallacy because it was written in Latin and had to be translated and they wouldn’t translate it for centuries. The fallacy was that the universe is in motion; ergo there must be a mover. Whatever is moving the universe must be superior to us and must be God. When we finally get a clear look at it. You find out that the universe isn’t moving. Nothing is moving. Our consciousness creates the illusion of movement.

So consequently what you encounter is a tremendous illusion. And it’s difficult to pick up. You pick up the illusion.

There’s a book back there by JJ van der Leeuw. it’s called the Conquest of Illusion and it’s one of the most valuable books back there, And this man demonstrates When I read it I said that I don’t need to write anything This man said it all. He had the ability to show how the universe, the things that we see are illusions.

So consequently Thomas Aquinas encountered the concept of illusions. The Hindus knew this 1000 years before we came across it. I read that a few years before an it didn’t mean a thing to me. But after I had my experience I knew what they were talking about by Maya.

The other thing that was pertinent in this theology was that the finite mind would never perceive the infinite. We have a minuscule mind and there’s a mammoth project out there. Trying to understand something with a peanut mentality. When the mentality that has the blueprint drawn is monumental.

But it dawned on me that there had been people that said they knew the answer down through the ages. If no one had ever received any information, then I’d say let’s not go any farther. But we had figures like Christ that claims that he had contact, that he found an immortal existence Buddha and I’d say quite a few others.

Bucke has a whole book full of them in fact. People had convincing experiences I though let’s get back to the drawing board and find out how these fellows did it.

Along with that I had realized that you’re not going to do it by analytical thinking. You’re going to have to become it. And this is the big problem.

And the nest thing is how you become. I came back after I had reached the point of understanding I went back to read the Bible and Christ said to someone that I’m the way, the truth and the way. And he didn’t say that know the truth or I have the truth, he said that I am the truth, you either are it or you’re nothing.

So with this in mind I started looking around and started to find people who that gave evidence of having acquired it. Then you try to find literature. Find a little code book that says how do I find do I come about this?

It wasn‘t until I was 30 and I happened to go out to Seattle with the purpose of getting married and that didn’t work either. I went out and get a job as a waiter and I’d go home every evening and sit down in my bed and do my breathing exercises and think.

But this particular time I got a pain on the top of my head. I said that this won’t let up. It got so bad that tears were running down my face. The next thing I notice is that I went out the window. And I can see the people on the street. And by this time the pain’s gone because I’m removed from it. And I was headed for the Cascade Mountains. I went up so high that the city disappeared. And I realized that I was watching mankind from below. And it occurred to me that I was watching them.

So I looked down to see if I knew anybody and I saw myself. And this shook me up because it dichotomized me. Then I realized that the fellow down there wasn’t alive. He was like a paper robot. The only thing that was alive was the observer.

The little clue in your thinking, the view is not the viewer. The viewer is the man that sees it and if you ever happen to see yourself. Always the one that you’re conscious of watching is not you. Later it turns to my vision of what was up ahead. It was a very solitary place that I was in.

I faced oblivion and what was beyond oblivion was awareness.

But the awareness was still there. And this is when I realized that that was indestructible could understand oblivion and unit with it and still be eternal .

coming back was a very dismal, very unpleasant time getting back.


West Virginia

felt like an alien

suicidal urges

what merges on superstition perhaps.

One of the things that I think what happens is. When I was in my twenties to 30 and I wasn’t idle. I went back and forth across the country looking at all these movements.

for a dollar or two, maybe a hundred

I found that not any I would consider authentic. And honest really tiring to help anybody.

They were just hucksters. Two things that they were merchandising, sex and money .

I swore that if I ever found anything solid I’d make it available.

Three years later I got married, I raised a family.

Because the possibility of every meeting a crowd as large as this, the time is now and it’s slipping away. These groups will get smaller.

In the 50’s if you would start talking about yoga, you lost friend, you lost business contacts.

They want to get someone who was sane to work for them. So you would keep your mouth shut and went your way.

I wasn’t married a year or two until I started meeting with groups in the area. Like Akron and Steubenville Ohio, there was an older group that fell apart and we got them back together. But the people that were in those groups never stopped looking.

side 1, minute 30

When I came back I landed in Cleveland and I’ll never forget how strange Cleveland was to me. I got a room in a fleabag hotel. There were some old men sitting around in the lobby and they had a radio on. It was a ballgame. I was amazed that 60 year old men the only thing they were interested in was a baseball game. They wouldn’t even stop until the inning was over.

Another day I went out for a walk. And people were coming 4 and 5 abreast. And none of them were talking. They were very silent and determined and I thought there had been a tremendous catastrophe here because these people were grim. Maybe they’re trying to get out of town. So I stopped one of them and asked them what happened. And he looked at me like I was crazy and he said nothing. And I stopped another and asked where everybody is going. He said to the ballgame.

To me these little thing were just incomprehensible. I just couldn’t understand how that mass of people could spend that mass of energy to go to a ballgame. You realize what’s the percentage of people who were just interested in ballgames. There were thousands. Unless I had a motive for living I don’t think I would care to live.

Q: Where did you make your jump from psychological to direct-mind? How did that come about?

A: What do you mean?

Q: Looking at thing analytically then seeing things more directly?

A: I don’t know if I’ going to answer you to what you asked me, but it brings me to something of interest.

What happens is sitting in yoga exercises and meditation, most of that doesn’t do you a bit of good. But if you continue to follow a path of some kind of introspection.

Now how do you do introspection? You have to get something to make yourself think. There are a number of things that you can do. You can have a room that you meditate in.

I did all my meditating walking. I can’t sit still. If I do I’ll go to sleep. So I’d get out and I’d walk.

I did contract work when I was younger and I’d get up on the ladder working and I’d be thinking. Because I had a monotonous job, I could do it without thinking.

I’ve got a little paper there about meditation. It will give you the details of this. The correct way to meditate is to look back on your traumas, not look forward into bliss. Bliss gets you nowhere.



I was interested in a lot of current literature in 1950 there was no books on the news stand. I would come up to here in Cleveland and there were a group of fellows and we would talk and there were people there were interested in Brunton.

Paul Brunton was a tremendous man of stature in the esoteric field. And he was able to lead the mind in.

It keeps your mind on it. If a kid wants to go to college, he goes home and he has books. The teacher torture’s him with lessons. So he goes in and forces himself to think. In the esoteric field there are no lessons to take. If anybody gives you lessons, believe me that will lead you into careless thinking, non-pointed thinking. But if you got something that will inspire you,

just like going to church on Sunday

do a half hour every day. Then you will get interested.

You will get into the retreat from garbage. You find that one time you thought was hot stuff, 10 years later you will discard it. And you will see something that’s better stuff. And 10 years later you’ll discard that.

hopefully you’ll have enough decades left

I found that it didn’t matter what I was reading. I could be working math problems. I could be reading books on physics. I could read Madame Blavatsky which I thought was very inspiring.

Secret Doctrine

They were encyclopedias of data. Her we read of wondrous and miraculous things that people don’t think about.

Charles Forte

When you get to reading this stuff you realize that 99% of the people never bother to find the real mysteries of life that have never been solved.

If you get to the final analysis when you get to this point, you will find that these aren’t mysteries longer. Because everything that you can conceive of could come to pass. For instance in Blavatsky she talks about vril. Bulwer Lytton This is the ability to break stone with your mind. Or with some mental operation.



I don’t doubt this for a minute and I’ll explain to you how this type of magic occurs. They say the reason they conceived this because in ancient times they were dealing with stones that they couldn’t handle. They great stones of the pyramid for example. If you ever been there for example the stone of block, the cement between the blocks for example, I’d say that they’re about 6 to 8 feet square. The cement is 1/8 of an inch thick and it looks like dentist cement. It has no grains of sand in it that I can see.

And this stuff has been there for thousands of years. OK how did they do it? It’s easy to say magic. But what I’m saying that it’s possible that people can do stuff with their mind.

But what is the mechanism? What is the formula? The formula is that the world is basically illusion. The real mind is anterior. The creative mind is anterior.

So that the inner mind is holding. So if the inner mind if it’s able to hold, a blueprint upon this transitory mind, or relative vacillating illusory type mentality, it can create any image it wants.

Side 1 at min 39

And I had some things happen to me in my lifetime that convinced me that you can do some amazing things. I never tried cracking stones or anything like that. I think you have to have good reason for doing it. You would have to have a tremendous urge for doing it.

But you can see that on a smaller basis.

The other thing is I could lecture on hypnosis.

I don’t care to lecture on hypnosis

The reason I do lecture on it is to show that man is a zombie, we react. We are strictly reactors.

And if a person can see that, this is one of the steps to being a viable creature, something that moves on its own.

We do not move on our own until we become self-centered. Capital S self centered and we abolish small s self centered.

What we are, are relative creatures, everything has to be black or white. And the mind cannot be creative until it stops. And at the point when it’s stopping is the point when it suddenly becomes creative. Something becomes receptive to an infinite amount of wisdom.

Incidentally, if you’re interested, this is the point of transmission. You will not read this in many books. I haven’t written it myself. Transmission is causing a person to become enlightened just by contact, mental contact. Physical contact doesn’t mean a thing. It’s brought about by bringing the two minds into one.

in the final thing, we are all one

the first thing you think you are is …

[tape break]

File 1 ends at about min 42

File 2


but then you realize that everybody has that same ability and is the same as you are

from that other dimension, this one is emanated

our mundane mind is somatic

take that step away from being reactive


before newspapers

The mechanism is what I call betweenness.

should be translated

invoke a sense of awe

what we need is anger nd determination

but having reached it, you want nothing

Platonic cave

the real people are on the outside

there was the house that we left

you can heal people this way; I call it direct-mind.

had a girl playing a broom

and she was conscious

so you test them

have them elevate one arm

none of these people went through any hypnotic techniques; I pointed at them and they hit the floor

real demonstration of betweenness

holding your head off

“Not that I want, but that I want.”

make up your mind ahead of time

you want the thing to happen

“Oh, let’s see what happens.”

Side 2 min 6

And all of this was that a mood was created, that everyone fell into

the mind stops

either accident or years of trauma

one of the greatest evils of today

everyone approaches that

Catholics advertizing on billboard

“I had a string of nightclubs in Ohio”

had gambling joint

prayed to God

“My life has got meaning now.”

there’s a tremendous lot you can achieve with that

always something bigger up ahead

side 2 min 9

Q. (Gordon?)

R. No, I don’t agree with either one

anything was better than what he was

retreating from error

Q. Some kind of evil that keeps people from seeing?

R. Never believed in evil

It’s very possible that bringing a child into the world vs killing an old man with cancer

all the things are educational

they are hard to take

If I had found a girlfriend, that would have been the end of the trip

that wasn’t evil, it was educational

even those people are not evil; they serve

these churches all have value

one of the great theological points, that there is evil

not true

Transmission Paper


and with that you can elevate the abilities of the mind

you can heal with them, in fact

the world is very possible a perfect place to live

our concept is error

min 15 –

I was a hippie with no drugs

Q. After a period of trauma the head will stop. If your relatives find you in that condition, send you to the hospital and fill you full of drugs

R. story about boy at Brown, Stelazine

doing a tremendous amount of damage

Q. genuine spiritual experience, bring them out of it – fear or no idea of what’s going on

R. They have no idea

min 18

Q. killing the mind


R. I always thought Krishnamurti was an enlightened man

he has a knack of bringing things into common, ordinary language

tremendous margin of erroneous thinking

van der Leeuw was a student of Krishnamurti’s

gave more of a system

“Start here. Do this. Conduct your life in this manner.”

what’s reality is behind it

only a few minds will listen

he just says, “Keep looking.”

certain laws, that you can expedite things

Contractor’s Law

increment by hiring men

500 bricks in a day

hire 1100 bricks a day

the same thing applies in this thing

it can be a solitary path

books will be a helper

as an individual you have only one lifetime

here’sa a shortcut

in Cuyahoga Falls we had a little group; when I came back from Seattle

Radha Soami


all this stuff was on the table

we were taking ten people’s lives

available to all ten

an expeditor

min 25

Q. difficulty with words – evil not really existing?

R. the human mind in its greatest fuction is triangulation

Over here is A, over here we have B


from a compensatory point we get a view of both

only seen from up above

this is the same

in all philosophy

evidence of the paradox

two points of observation

have to triabgulate to see

protoplasm feels pain or joy

our religions – feelgood

people hugging each other

Pollyannic perpetual motion

“enlightenment not more than relief. When you lift the burden the jackass is happy.”

min 29

Q. evil

R. One of the great evils – trading words

smooth over everything, create a utopia by ignoring

“exceptional children”

Is that going to stop the kid from being retarded?

this leads us away from the truth

my wife is a nurse

harvest organs, while he’s still alive

Phoenix, Arizona

clinically he’s dead

but they don’t know; they decide

we’d like your permission to use his eyeballs

heart still beating

shave off the pubic hair, got an erection

She says, “That boy’s alive and conscious.”

Moody, Kübler-Ross.

October 1974 Readers Digest

he mad the doctors out a liar

no one in that hospital had the courage to stop them

we don’t have things defined properly

ashamed to admit they don’t know

abolished the inner man

“Oh, that’s a hallucination”

more and more coming around

min 36

R. Did I stray too far

Q. … people are vegetables

R. What it boils down is what is decency

in Texas a boy laid in a coma for 8 or 9 years

you have to build a sense that knows what that person is thinking

I think this can be done

just gave a lecture in Columbus

broke her neck. She has only one muscle that moves

above her bed she has the alphabet

by being with her every day, they know what she wants

this has been going on for ten years

I don’t know what you do

it as to be the family

my mother: “What an awful way to live.”

hope springs eternal;but not for an 80 year old woman

part of the suffering

brutal, heartless way they cut up the body

break this guy into parts

min 4

Q. This week on television, paraplegics and quadriplegics

R. Well there’s another possibility. message shunted around

I’ve been around autistic children

I consider them superior

the child has a simple, clear mind

we get in into relative thinking

learns very quickly

stops it from its direct-mind thinking

six months the baby is born, hangs in two dimensions

tremendously pointed relative thinking: “No!”

they can’t get a job if they grow up as autistic individuals

we’ve got to keep the kid out of prison

has to grow up with our values

no value

ride with the herd, that’s all

I don’t have any authority and I don’t have the time to get …

[break in tape]

Side 2 ends at 44:49

File 3


… with the herd. But anyhow, I don’t have any authority and I don’t have the time to get into it. But I’ve been around autistic children, and knew that when I was around them I could immediately – we got along good. And I refused to believe that they were “autistic”; I mean, I didn’t see any great traumatic thing

TAT Journal articles on autism

they don’t care to communicate

my father was not a educated man

the autistic child is disgusted with the human race

[gap in tape]

had to kill a dog who was killing his chickens

transmission – there was a case of this that happened inside my house

two hours she was on the floor

it became too traumatic; I just moved my head and she came out of it


might sound science fiction

anybody can do this

allow yourself

Q. You said earlier that there was no evil

R. There is nothing in-itself evil

if you throw hot water on your tomato plants that will kill them; that is error

if he keeps on committing adultery he’ll get very unhealthy

develop an intuition

the big thing in all this interior work

intuition causes you to throw one book away and keep another

the path is the reverse path

We don’t approach wisdom; we retreat from garbage

and finally there’s no place else to go. You become what I call an engineering vector

an energy source in a given direction. There’s no place else to go except for the answer

Q. Hitler created so much evil.

R. Hitler was only part of the machinery. He was only a cog

the damage itself isn’t evil

for instance we take a young man and send him overseas, we train him to kill

Okay, he comes back here and he goes down and goes before the local judge, and the local judge is a thief. And it’s in the newspapers that these judges are taking graft, and the police are taking graft

nobody’s protected, basically, but we like to believe that

So some guy picks up a rifle and shoots himself a few cops and half a dozen judges. And now we execute him. But we didn’t execute him for killing some honest people on the other side of the trenches


we say that he’s evil now because he shot the judge

there’s basically a plan behind it

the human race will never solve the problem

we have nothing to say about it

to Khoumeni death is good

it’s all in definition


Q. It’s in definition to a degree, but on the other hand for instance, I think with the so-called golden rule – it’s different in the Hebraic tradition I think that some of what you’re doing is relativistic reasoning I think there are certain rules that have been given to us because God instructed people to kill at times


R. Of course, you’re getting out on a limb there when you start saying that God said this or that.

Q. Well, alright, but that Hitler did no wrong in killing people: this I cannot accept.

R. Well, maybe you’re Hebraic.

Q. Yes, I am of Hebraic origin

R. Well, you shouldn’t let that enter into your philosophy though

in a book, depends on translation

the truth is in the Self, and the living is in the Self. And the laws that you make – for instance to me, what you’re talking about makes sense to my intuition, and I can’t accept it just because it’s in a book


if they wanted to prove an argument they quoted the Bible.

I think that these books are written by inspired people. I don’t say hey are written by God necessarily

What I’m talking about is a code of conduct, and this code of conduct comes to you as the result of intuition, if you watch it Don’t get the idea that I ever endorse killing. I’m talking from an absolute sense only. Don’t you understand what I’m saying?

Q. I understand what you’re saying . But what I’m saying is that in an audience such as this, there is not sufficient understanding of that. For instance, God is the creator … [long moral argument on God creating both good and evil]

R. I agree.

Q. But we are still suffering from Tower of Babel

R. most of the people destroyed by Hitler were “lawbreakers”.

Q. Not true at all. They were lawbreakers under the rules he made.

R. Right, right, now you’re talking.

you say we’ve got these laws. But you’re interpreting them as you being the personal interpreter of God

Q. what you are doing in Gurdjieff’s terms, you are “justifying”.

R. Oh, no. You missed me.

when you reach a point of knowledge, you can do pretty much as you please, but you’ll never do it. Because nothing is important. A million dollars if you could steal it would have no meaning.


the affection for the human race increases, not decreases

Japanese story of the Samuri soldier that Chamberlin played over. Shogun? They killed an old man he was speaking from the Zen indifference

we are not smart enough to know it doesn’t matter

Q. because many people got the idea that you were condoning evil.

R. Is anyone still in the dark? [laughter]


Q. A Buddhist was recently telling me

R. They can always translate it as being evil


Jim Burns: The only thing that I think I would like to mention about the whole area is that it has continued in our lifetime, that in our tradition we had an Inquisition. Assuming a lot of things that I don’t think are going to be so, and we last another 1,500 years, which I don’t think is going to happen myself, we’ll have another one.


R. We have something of this that’s relative, going on in Iran and Russia. And even the children will turn in their own parents to get them killed, because they’re convinced that the law is right

it has to answer to personal intuition

JB. That’s my point. The problem is that there are fashions in personal intuition.

R. Blavatsky

not overnight

there’s an erosion of BS. The BS erodes away and that leaves a more substantial character.

I had a pretty good idea of myself, but I had been pretty much trained to think that. Because I was of a superior religion. Everybody belongs to a superior religion. I was a Catholic, we were superior. They didn’t go to the same heaven. There’s a joke about it

So it’s a hard thing to overcome when you get down and start facing yourself. You’ve got to realize it, that you didn’t come from any special breed of people


What I would be reading was Blavatsky now it’s 15-20 years later

that little book on Meditation takes you through that. That’s thr traumas. Look back at your traumas, and you drop that. As soon as you see that you drop it, you’re free of it.


But the whittling away of this thing can lead only to one thing, and that’s a person with a clarified intuition. Then – that type of person doesn’t harm his fellow man, he doesn’t do anything of that sort. It’s hard for him to get into causes

the wars are almost predictable. The intuition says to keep your nose clean, stay out of the conflicts, and they will adjust themselves. Integrate yourself into them and you become part of violence


Q. There’s been so much talk about good and evil, I was just curious Alan Watts, we’re all one consciousness, and that this life may be some sort of a game that we play on ourselves in order to entertain ourselves


R. Well – now if I’m wrong, Mort, correct me – I’m going to talk about the Bible in a minute.

In Genesis we had the concept of a lonely God, a God that was a totality of the universe, and he was lonely. And this is the excuse for the creation of Adam and Eve, which is symbolic perhaps of all life

I have always felt personally that this is an educational process. If it’s not an educational process, it’s one hell of a sadistic-masochistic game. The only person who could enjoy it would be a maximum masochist.

individual consciousnesses created it for the amusement of the center, which would be God.

translation: he created a “trough” for his pleasure, and that was the universe


number one, there’s no such thing as time

we know that the time element is different after death than it is in this dimension

when you die the sun goes out

Einstein space-time continuum

one supposition is as good as another. It implies that the human is helpless


Q. And how does reincarnation come into this?

R. I never, you never hear me talk about reincarnation

an old Zen teacher told me one time, “Don’t indulge in it.” Because the people in India for instance

they cling to this hope of another incarnation. And as long as they do that, they will not pursue a private spiritual endeavor, to find out who they are, or to grow beyond this ignorance. Consequently it can be a big escape, a mental escape, a rationalization, procrastination


One of the old members of our group, one of the early ones, he’s slightly balmy now – and that means I don’t get along with him too well – when he was about 19 years of age he wrote, he was a physicist and he consulted with Einstein

He conceived of man as a strand instead of a person. He’s a concatenation, of something that starts out as a sperm and an ovum, and enlarges to a baby, a man, an old man, a smaller old man, and finally a zero.

this is the total fact, the concatenation

[check diagrams in van der Leeuw, sounds similar]

some choice, but it was limited

70 of our experiential years to see something that was already solid in space-time

what is life, but an experience?

Everything that happened to me in my life, now seems like yesterday

see the whole thing at a glance


Craig: Earlier you were talking about betweenness and the idea of using that in different ways. Is it the state of being of the operator that allows him – your ego being involved, and then the withdrawal of that

Does your state of being as you get further along, is it easier at that point?

R. Yes. It’s just a matter of attitude all the way down. It’s like the prayer of Alcoholics Anonymous, which I think is one of the pieces of wisdom of all time “Tell me what to do. Tell me my limitations so I can go to work for you.”

Q. To surrender.

R. Right. To surrender when you’re supposed to, and to fight when you’re supposed to fight. And the wisdom to know the difference

astral projection. People ask me about taking years of their life to study astral projection. Why? When a bus ticket will take you there.

you’re stuck in a relative dimension. You don’t travel to the absolute Astral projection will not take you to the absolute, it will just take you across this mundane dimension, which is illusory.


it’s crazy. You can get on a train or bus and go there.

Q. transmission

R. It becomes a state, it’s almost like entering it. It’s like entering a room. I know you’ve seen some of it, so you know what happens. [hypnosis]

I don’t have to go through the yes-and-no routine.

If I wanted to take this on stage or a tour it would be a colossal flop

it neutralizes itself even in the demonstration; there’s no point in doing it – except in instances where somebody is on the brink and you can come into rapport with them and move them, which they couldn’t do themselves. And this is a welcome miracle of sorts


Q. So it’s your life, your actual being that allows you to do that

R. Once you throw up [out] the barriers, the barriers of ego it’s just like walking into a room, that’s all, and you get into a certain mind which is neither here or there. There’s a wish but not an obsession. There’s a wish and then a forgetting of the wish.


R. There has to be almost a point of indifference to it doesn’t matter whether it happens or not.

We can only operate within the perimeter of what we’re able to do

chart of quantum energy


A lot of people stop there, as I said. Because that’s the big ego trip: you’re the big healer now. I’ve had a lot of people condemn me, saying, “Why don’t you do something useful? Why don’t you heal people?” They’re talking about mundane usefulness. But my idea is, “Hey, why don’t you knock off this healing ego and try to find out who you are? Because you’re on the road you’re halfway there.”


Q. Traumas that clarify your intuition.

R. the experience itself was a complete surprise

It falls on everybody. Take the case of St John of the Cross

if you don’t have the intuition, you lose the oil from their lamps.

your intuition is going to tell you you’re being used

this quantum energy can be used to expand the mind

execution, tortured by the thought of death, he may have an enlightenment experience

in that moment he’ll find out, some of them will

the long road is to build up

have the necessary courage to face the traumas

you can’t prove that it’s anything but junk

“This life isn’t worth living unless I know who is living.”

will carry you over the rough spots

Q. peace of mind

R. more like plateaus

Gurdjieff – 4 men

you have to rise above the instinctive man.

[break in tape]

[side 3 ends at 44:53

File 4


and as I said, these things come in people’s lives. We all have philosophic experiences but we don’t always know they’re philosophic experiences. When a person falls in love they lose their instinctive nature to a degree. That’s the first sign, where the selfishness parts. When a woman has a baby, if she’s a real mother, she’s a totally unselfish person, and her stature is great. Same with a man: when a man goes out and gives his life on the battlefield, or gives his life in a 40-year stretch, wearing it away in some factory, this man has sacrificed his ego, his self, for the support of somebody else. So he’s not an instinctive creature anymore. He started off being that; that’s the reason he got married maybe. Or she. But that devotion changes his nature.

So he may join a church and become a Jesus-man. I’ve known people, very sincere people, my father-in-law was one of them, he was a Pentecostal minister and he was very sincere. He meant every word he said. And he had risen up to a point where Jesus was his lover: this was his salvation. And he directed all of his attention – of course he also had an affection for his family. But this was the great love of his live, being like Jesus.

And I think he remained that until he died. But that’s as far as he got. He never entered the intellectual stage or the philosophic stage. He died at the age of 87 with cancer, and I saw that in his last hours he wasn’t sure of himself. The only thing he wanted then was human contact; because he was alone.


But I think that the different stages that a person goes through are necessary, and you have to hedgehop …

[break in tape some missing]

… energy, and were young enough eclipse the time. To get the thing done in a shorter period of time with a little help, rather than go through the long labor of slow changes in life. If you don’t study philosophy at all you’ll become a philosopher, it doesn’t matter. But it won’t be too much of an increase. Everybody becomes wiser as they get old. And the reason you get wise as you get old is that your values change.


Q. … is there suffering …?

R. What happens is that each one of these realizations arrives at a very ecstatic plateau. When a man falls in love he has an ecstatic plateau. If he falls in love with Jesus he has an ecstatic plateau: the world becomes a meaningful place for him to live. He sees Jesus’ handiwork stamped on everything.


finally he says, My emotions are unstable

starts digging some more – eureka experience, satori

Law of the Ladder

that fellow two rungs up, you might write him off as a complete idiot


Q. Do you feel that when a person dies they continue, this level of transition? [?]

R. I think death is different things for different people. And I think it’s directly related to the situation, the maximum realization they have [had] at the time of death, or before death.

how could a magnanimous thing as we conceive God to be condemn?

met by their family

temporal relationship, bardo

article in Readers’ Digest

no relations, no one there but him

mesh, tunnel

pervaded with wonderful feeling, peace, joy

for person who has had samadhi

even the previous self was illusory

another room of the same house

her earlier were strictly wrapped around Jesus

drifted away from this rapturous love of a person

St. John of the Cross, cosmic consciousness experience

St. Paul, epileptic spell


Mort: There is a modern writer Robert Monroe, who has written about these out-of-body experiences which he had, and which he started from a very elementary level claimed to meet some of the dead

R. really?

Q. since then he has established a school, proof that life continues

R. I read the first book; he went through the floor and was having relations with the lady upstairs

If the dead are so much alive, why don’t they communicate? different dimension

R. I’ve had experiences with members of the family, couldn’t prove not wishful thinking


Q. Do you believe in these so-called spiritual guides, that people say come when you’re ready in your life?

R. I don’t depend on them

the so-called teacher has to be somewhat of an egotist

I held back for years

but we don’t know what people are supposed to do

stereotyped ideas of teachers

never push little ducks backwards in the water


R. Sure they’re good. I take issue with some of the motivation behind them.

running a racket; I consider this a capital crime against the Self

million dollars would be too cheap

prostituting something they don’t have

knock you off your feet

there’s a demand for things

taking the money off you does some good, like in the old days when they used to leach you

I call it a Zeitgeist. There are different moods

will happen about as often as Haley’s comet

behind this was psychedelic drugs

psychedelic drugs project some people into another dimension

didn’t know how to see the lesson

hedonistic trip

crack in the door, by default

able to see in another dimension

millions of young people were looking for an alternative set of values


Watts – very few bookstands have his books anymore


You’d go down to the university – I’d give a talk down at Case Western here, I used to talk over at that Thwing Hall. And they’d be throwing questions at me from, quotations from Watts that I didn’t even know he said. They had read more than I had on the current authorities

nickel for Kroger’s

can’t get a degree in basket weaving

got to get out there and scramble for a job now.


And it’s all part of – the pattern is working. And the indication up ahead is war. In other words, you couldn’t take a million philosophers and make an army out of them. But a million people who are scratching for a living – you know, we only fight when we’re hungry – they might fight. So the geist is aimed in that direction now, and it’s manifesting itself all over the world..


Q. Do you believe a new age is coming?

R. That “new age” is a worn-out word. There is no new age. That was in the minds of some people. When they massacred the Indians up at Little Big Horn, the Indians all got around their medicine man and they chanted and they prayed for weeks and weeks and drove the soldiers crazy. They were waiting for the new age, the new word from God. God was going to tell them what to do to win the battle and run out the invaders. But he never came.

And that’s the same; it’s kind of a blind hope. I think there was a utopian hope. I never could see it myself when I was lecturing. There were a lot of people who had the feeling that we were going to change the world. There was a brave new generation of people who were going to change the world. But a million addicted kids are not going to change anything. Too many of the were too helpless. They couldn’t get out of bed in the morning, much less change the world. So it failed. But if they had had a dynamic philosophy

[gap in tape]

or had some great ?? – I don’t know – what is great purpose? The great purpose I think is to change the things that you can change.



Well Mort, we’ve worn you out.

Q, about Timothy Leary, India

R. book Don Juan by Castanedas

Don Juan never existed

Richard DeMille

Fate Magazine written by his ex-wife


What it goes back to, there’s an alternative for sincere work, and that is, DeRopp calls it the “Hunt the Guru Syndrome”. And it becomes a thing in itself. That finding is not the aim; the aim is to hunt. Hunt the guru. And Baba Ram Das or Alpert or whatever you call him, he too hunted the guru. And he went over there and he thought that, came back and said, “Oh, I’ve found the guru” And he gave little talks or presentations, and that was his message, that he found this guru over there.


Then he found out that he had another guru. He didn’t stop, he went hunting for another guru, and this was a woman up in New York someplace I think. And she was his guru for awhile. And Lord knows, I don’t know what his guru is now. But this is “the grass is greener on the other side of the fence”, it isn’t the pursuit of wisdom. It’s the idea of getting something by pushing a button. Or spending $2,000 on a plane trip to India and coming back with $4,000 worth of merchandisable literature or something.


I’m not saying that all these gurus are bad, but I’d like to see some results

truth is in man

if it’s in you, you don’t have to go to Asia to find yourself

aviator in Japan in World War 2.

God observes the fall of the sparrow

he goes back to the Bible to dig

Lord’s Prayer

besieged himself with it

the more he prayed the more trauma he had

working as a salesman in an auto dealership

like Swedenborg

in and out

stayed that way several years

I wanted to mention, as you’re leaving

August down at the farm, 2 days


[side 4 ends at 35:05]


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