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Title 1977-0521-Symposium-Washington-DC-Informal
Recorded date May 21, 1977
Location Washington DC
Number of tapes 2 @ 60
Other recorders audible?
Alternate versions exist?
Source DM and MJ are both 31 + 31 + 25 min. Others: BM (partial, 31 + 26), GH (2 min fragment only)
No. of MP3 files
Total time
Transcription status Started 1st pass, side 1 only. Side 2 has a tremendous amount of cross talk.
Link to distribution copy http://distribution.direct-mind.org/
Link to PDF http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?
Published on which website?
Audio quality
Identifiable voices
URL at direct-mind.org https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php?title=1977-0521-Symposium-Washington-DC-Informal
For access, send email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp 20150128003116

Newspaper announcement


The News Frederick, Maryland May 5, 1977

Title:The News State:Maryland County:Frederick City:Frederick Country:United States Of America Content Source:Ancestry.com Literal Title:The News Date:1977-05-05 Lccn:sn83016207

Symposium set in Washington

A symposium entitled, "Man, His Definition and Ultimate Potential: Startling Breakthroughs in the field of Parapsychology," will be held in Washington, D. C., Saturday and Sunday, May 21 and 22, sponsored by the TAT Foundation.

The symposium will be held at the Kay Spiritual Life Center of American University, corner of Massachusetts ·and Nebraska Avenues N.W., and will run from 10 a.m. until 6 p.m. each day.

The aim of the symposium is to create a mood of friendship and cooperation in which speakers of diverse backgrounds, who are acknowledged experts in the fields of philosophy, parapsychology, psychic phenomena and the mind sciences, can address themselves to the mysteries which surround human existence.

Among the twelve speakers to be included will be Dr. Wilbur Franklin of Kent State University. Dr. Franklin was among the original Stanford Research Group which brought Uri Geller to America, and has risen to international prominence through his own experiments with psychokinesis and the Bermuda Triangle.

Professor Robert Ayres of Holliston College in Massachusetts will discuss the biological discoveries which conclusively point to the existence of the human soul. Dr. James Cornie of Pittsburgh will discuss the latest scientific evidence for life after death, drawing on ancient texts as well as modern documentary reports.

In addition to Saturday's lectures, the weekend will include panels on the topics of Dreams, ESP, Mental Potentials, and the relationship of Science to the research into parapsychological fields. The two-day symposium is open to the public and advance reservations can be obtained by calling 946*0467


There are 2 or 3 versions Jaqua: 3 mp3 files: 31 min, 31 min, 26 min Dave Mettle: 3 mp3 files: 31 min, 31 min, 25 min Bart Marshall: << on sheet but not converted yet if exists Plus Gary Harmon: 1 mp3, << 2 minutes only

File mj1

mj tape: Total time: 31:24

A couple old Jewish ladies have Rose nailed down from the start:

mj1-00:00 R. We have people who use us. We have things that use us. There’s an old poem:

Little bugs have smaller bugs upon their backs to bite ‘em. And bigger bugs have bigger bugs and so ad infinitum.

It’s a bug system.

Q. Is this form of parapsychology be able to adapt to aging at all?

R. Huh?

Q. Aging. Has this view of the ?? process, aging process, or, you know.

R. Concern with aging, you mean?

Q. Yes. Like for example, it could be somebody like ?? get the eighties and feel very young.

R. Um-hum.

Q. Do you think that they might have been too somehow?

R. Been who?

Q. Well, you know, they’re famous, of course like Mr. ?? > ?? felt young.

R. Yeah.

Q. I don’t know whether this whole thing is ?? to the aging process. To delay it in a spiritual or mental sense?

R. Well, I think there is a direct relationship between aging and how much – if you go back to the farm, the cow, the chicken [that] eats dynamite only lives a year, and they they’re shot. By dynamite I mean they feed them potent laying match? make them lay eggs. They only last a year or so and then you have to get rid of them. They’re done. Dairy cows are the same way. They give them chemicals to stimulate the mammary glands and they put out a lot of milk. In 2 or 3 years they have to get rid of them. They go into gland cancer or something.

Q. So? How does this apply to you and me?

R. Right. Right. [pause] I say the analogy rests in that we too are used as cows in the herd. If you get enraptured with the process of being used as a cow, you don’t - ?? conserve your energy.

Q. [both in unison] And how do you conserve your energy?

R. [hesitates]

Q. How do you ? brain. Just by all these things like Zen, and all these disciplines?

R. You can’t state it in a simple thing.

Q. ?? ??

[several people chime in]

R. No. But everybody has a different prop. Some people are burning it out with booze, and some are burning it out with dope, and some are burning it out with sex. And some are burning it out with forms of sex that burn it out faster than other forms of sex.

Q. The energy?

R. Yes.

Q. What are they burning up?

R. Their quantum energy. You’re like a cow. Are you going to force the cow to give ten gallons of milk a day? It will only last half as long. We? are? made? We are more predictable than the animal.

Q. Productive?

R. Yes, productive. The sexual energy, the quantum energy of this type. In other words, there’s a tremendous thing that the human field doesn’t take into account. And that is the idea of normality. Number one, the psychologists maintain that we’re nothing but animals. But an animal only breeds once a year.


Q. I don’t want to change the subject, but what is ...

R. We’re poor? animals.

Q. ... one of the speakers mentioned that you had an outstanding experience when you were 32 [30] years old. Can you tell us a little bit?

R. Yes. Well, I can if you want. I mean you’d have to ask me [something]. What do you want to know about it?

Q. What happened? What was your experience?

R. I saw the answer. The total answer.

Q. Under what circumstances?

R. [laughs] You want the formula. You want the formula so you can duplicate it. You can’t duplicate it.

Q. Everybody ?? [laughter – at this?]

R. Right, right. Each will be a little different, you know. I described it in the book. And I said when I described it that ...

Q. Is it in here?

R. Right. ... you can’t, it doesn’t do any good to beat a dead horse. In other words, the part of the experience I didn’t care to go into, because it was very flattering [what the other person said?] and I don’t like to be flattering? unflattering? to myself. and I omitted a lot. [cross talk]

Q. ?

R. Sure, but it didn’t matter. I still brought the same thing up. But the basic thing was, that I started off as a young man. I think Frank talked about this a little bit when he gave his talk. I started out pretty young, looking for things. Like ?? And I tried to become a priest. I studied to be a Catholic priest and I got dissatisfied; I thought it was too much blind dogma, dictatorial attitude, shut and believe, this kind of stuff. And so I walked away.


But I never stopped looking. I went into every religion that would let me in, I went in every door that would allow me see their temple. I talked to gurus, medicine men, travelled as far as necessary to find them, as far as my money would ?? ?? ??

But I pretty much gave up, in my late twenties. I had, I was doing everything, and had different formulas. They said, “If you want to find the truth you do this.” You know, you meditate. Okay, so I meditated. Another yoga book, on raja yoga, said that if you want to find what’s in you, you have to be celibate. Okay, that’s alright, that’s a smal price for the final answer. So I was celibate. And I didn’t eat any meat. Some of the yogis didn’t eat meat so I gave up meat. [All] That wasn’t doing anything for me except vegetating.

But before I was 30 years old my hair had all fallen out, my teeth were going, and I thought, “Hell,” you know, “I think maybe I’m on a fool’s errand. I’d better go out and get drunk and get married and have some kids and forget about this ?? ?? ??”


So I tried to. Once when I was 28 and once when I was, well about 31 [chronology wrong] – that was part of the deal. I was, I had encountered a girl who had some money, [laughs] her people did, and I thought, “Well,” you know, “I’ll use her money and sit down and write books or something the rest of my life.” A big egotistical trip. See the thing is, it never occurred to me that my ego was in the road. The big “me” was going to find a spiritual truth by twisting it out of the universe, just by sitting and hiding. “I don’t want somebody else’s money [?] reading or studying or standing on my head ?? not work, for people’s money.

And – but nevertheless the traumas, there were traumas that came. And one day I thought I had flipped my lid. It started out with a pain in my head, the center of my head. I was in Seattle, Washington, too far to get home and too far to get anybody I knew. And the next thing I was aware f, I was going out a hotel window. My body stayed on the bed. I was sitting yogi style. But I went out the window. I remember before, looking out the window I could see the Olympic Mountains [between Seattle and the ocean] And I saw the mountains beneath me. This was a physical? ?? ?? of consciousness. Broad daylight. And I thought, ‘Oh boy. I’ll never make it back.”


It was a, somewhere there was a decided flip, like you see in these space movies. And all at once I was no longer atop the Olympic Mountains, I was above a mountain of humanity. And I could see millions and millions of people – whom I could identify – I could see these faces. I saw every person who ever lived. I was convinced of this. Every person that ever lived or would live was in that mountain. And by looking very closely I saw myself. Now there are all sorts of descriptions of this ?? ?? And I realized, then in the middle of this, I realized that there were two people, one of them was real and one wasn’t. The one on the mountain wasn’t real. the one that was watching was real.

But the one that was watching was an impersonal, absolute thought, so to speak. [?] And the possibilities of my future, my future existence, was nothingness. I realized as I was going into this. The end result was nothingness. Any hope that all these little egos of being important enough to live forever was just damn foolishness.


That the logical thing that would possibly happen to me was that I was realizing nothingness. But as soon as I accepted this, that I, that oblivion was going to be the thing that was going to me mine after death – that I had seen humanity and I had gotten a glimpse of it, but even as the superego or whatever you want to call it, I was wiped out – it was at this moment that I knew that I was everything. Not only that, but there existed an eternal duality: That I was still that little creature, climbing and slipping up the side of the hill.


Q. You were nothing and you were everything.

R. Right, right. And that’s the experience, basically.

Q. But were you able, are you able, I mean, how can you give up your ego and still function as a human being?

R. You don’t. You die. You literally die. You cannot find the secret of life and death without dying. And some of, you’ll read this in literature occasionally, some of the easterners – I forget some of the names of them – Ramana Maharshi, if you’re acquainted with him, has a little book on sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. ,

And he has a tremendously good analogy. He says – like “cosmic consciousness” – you hear people talking about an ecstatic experience, which Richard Bucke tells about – the name of the book is Cosmic Consciousness. And he says – he was in Montreal [no ] at the time and he said the whole world lit up. St. John of the Cross had his cell – they had him in jail – you could read the paper by the light that appeared in his cell. These are relative phenomena. There is a distinction. And that is kevala nirvikalpa samadhi, or cosmic consciousness. Because there are relative things that are appreciated, like beauty, light, music, ecstasy. These are relative experience.


In sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi, which some people mistakenly call this satori. Satori , is what I call the eureka experience. Like I know, for instance, Frank gave a talk on Zen. A lot of people thought Zen wasn’t talked about. There is no Zen. [in current religion?] Five hundred years ago there was a guy, who was it, Huang Po? said, “There’s no Zen in China.” They called in Ch’an. “There is no Zen in China. You’ve got a bunch of bums in the monastery.” And they said to him, “There are 3,000 people in this monastery, and there are monasteries all over China. Are you telling me that there’s no Zen in China?” HGe says, “There’s no Zen on China because nobody’s ever had the experience in these monasteries, and nobody can transmit it.”


So there are all kinds of books, and people are buying robes and paying a high price for shoes to sit around and face the wall, or have somebody crack them on the shoulders with a board or something and stimulate their thinking. But this is not spiritual realization. Spiritual realization comes about by an intense desire to find your definition. Whatever that is. Don’t put any qualifications on it. It may be zero. And if you have that intense desire to find your definition, it may equate some day with finding God. I don’t say it will; you have to say that yourself.


Q. And also stress helps you find ...

R. Yeah. We have nothing, the whole system, the whole human system, from the time you’re in the first grade – it’s like I say, the whole, as I said, if there is no lesson to be learned in life, this is a fool’s game. The creation. That God must be a fool, if there is nothing to be learned. If there’s nothing to be experienced, it seems asinine, we go on thousands after thousands of years, fighting wars, dying, killing each other, getting sick, having diseases, having sorrow, watching our people die, all this sort of ...

Q. What is the point?

R. Right. Unless there is an educational point, then somebody’s, then God is an idiot the creator is an idiot. So consequently, the mistake we make of course is trying to presume what the meaning is. Quit trying to presume what the meaning is, just try to find it out.


Like a guy says to me – I was talking to a fellow one time about, what was it, celibacy. I was talking about celibacy. He says, “What do you mean?” I explained the word to him. He said, “I don’t want none of that.” Okay, so he’s putting preconditions. In other words, he says, a lot of people think, “Oh, all I have to do is get down and once a week go to church, put a nickel in the basket, and be good to my neighbor, because God is humanity,” – this is the big atheism today: God is humanity.

Humanity is a can of worms. Only one in a million – Bucke says, one in a million even reach for enlightenment. It’s like, how big is this town, and then how many people sitting here? There have been advertisements on television about this meeting and everything. How many care to come? See? How many people today enjoyed the little thing with the gun, when they did the ?? man outside?


Q. [incredulous] Enjoy?

R. No. [many people] I know, but I’m saying some, it was histrionics. But how many are actually interested in finding their definitions? As ?? you know, but, you know, going down to the carnival and riding the roller coaster is much more exciting.


Q. You said one must die. You die.

R. Yeah.

Q. That ?? ?? ??

R. Yes.

Q. Your ego.

R. No. All that you know as yourself. I don’t know what your name is, but supposing your name is Mary, and by looking in the mirror you have come to accept that a certain, when you see that person in the mirror, that you accept this as Mary, as people accept it, as you accept it. But this is not you. This is all a belief state. We all have a mutual belief: I will believe your shirt’s blue, I will believe this suit’s blue. I will believe that you’re dignified because you have a beard. Or I will believe this man’s a fool because he runs around naked. Who knows where’s the ?? But it’s a belief state.


Q. Well the thing is, I mean, we can’t go around existing totally spiritually, because I don’t think we were meant to. We’re also physical, we’re human, we’re meant to be.

R. That’s the reason you’re ...

Q. The combination.

R. That’s the reason. Yeah. I don’t believe. See, I believe that all of the, that all forms of life are pyramid in form. Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not a pyramid fanatic. We used to call ourselves the Pyramid Zen Society. But the thing is, for every millionaire, there are possibly a million disenfranchised, not quite so fat? See? For every wise man, extremely wise man, for every PhD there’s a lot of people who never get to grade school. And this is the natural program. For every spiritual there may be a million people who don’t reach it. So don’t worry – we’re not going to cause too much trouble, [laughter]


Q. Actually, when you went on the other, I mean you passed away, you didn’t make any trips to the astral world like these books say, or trips into the other dimension?

R. I was aware that – you go through what I call the “prop room” – the Tibetans call it a bardo – in which all of this is created, is projected. The scenario is written, the props are there, you take your choices and you project, do you want to play on that stage. But this is what I call the projected creation, where the projected creation exists and is projected by virtue of agreement among all parties. Among all parties. And even if a child is born out in the jungle without a mother and an animal raises it, like you hear in some of these stories, that child will still have the same reactions and the same urges you might say as a child born in a domestic situation. And the same curiosity


But the – to get back I think to what you’re talking about ...

Q. I see the Tibetans mentioned about the trips to the astral plane, I think that’s true ...

R. Yeah, the bardo. See, well, I believe, this is again, I can’t validate it, because all I know is what happened to me – I believe you transcend what I call a manifested mind. The Buddhists have a term for it, one of them told me, he heard me talking and he said, “You’re talking about the buddha mind,” or something of that sort. And I said, “I don’t know your terminology.” But I know you definitely trans[cend], you go through what I call manifested mind.

In other words, the dimension beyond this is mental. Mental. This experience, this scenario, is mental. It’s created in the imagination of many minds, and agreed upon. But all of this, this is not [taps furniture] this is a thinner stuff than souls are made of. This is gossamer, smoke. Souls are real. So this is a projection, like you’d see on a screen. Clark Gable is on a screen – we know he’s dead, but he seems very alive; because that is smoke. That’s a projection, a projected camera. So all of this is projected upon the void.


And we as individual contacts with that mind stuff – manifested mind: you can’t get any further than that. In fact, we can’t even get back to the manifested mind. We can’t bridge that gap from the void. We’re on the other side of the void. We’re living on the screen. We’re in agreement that we’re all up on that ?? ?? see. So you’ve got to get back to the light where you’re projected from, the light – each man is a ray of the absolute. That’s my? put? But it comes through also the unmanifested mind. And this is, when you reach that is when you realize nothingness. And when you transcend the unmanifested mind is when you realize everything.


So the thing is, when this start, if you have enough determination and hunger and sincerity, when you start on this journey you’ll go all the way. Some people don’t. You’ll read of experiences where they have the cosmic consciousness experience, and they see that it’s a plan, it’s a blueprint, everything is in order. And they say, “Ah, somebody’s in charge and it’s good.” And they relax and accept. I don’t consider ?? ?? –ation, see.

Because after you’ve live so long you’ll realize you’ve been the victim of illusions. You realize you created a world in your childhood, and desperately wanted other children even to accept your make-believe world. And as you grew up you had to drop, and drop, and drop, until finally there’s not much left. But then sometimes it’s too late to make ??


Q. There’s a lot left, but it’s not what you want it to be.

R. Yeah, well, but this is the path. The path to the truth is not by – what we have in all our movements today – this is the reason I choose the word Zen, chose the Zen path in order to teach.. Not because I pretend to be of royal lineage. I could give you my lineage but I’m not going to. Because I don’t think it matters a darn. It matters whether I make sense to you. If I make sense to you. it’s okay. If I don’t, then I’m just another phony, as far as you’re concerned, so my lineage wouldn’t matter.


But the thing is that all movements, cults, gurus, isms, religions – postulate the end, and say, “I’m telling you what it is.” “I’m a personal emissary of God. He told me to tell you – to put your nickel in the basket.” All do this. “I am in contact with my guru who is in contact with his guru, who is in contact with God.” Baloney.

The only path to truth is to retreat from garbage, not to advance upon a postulation. So I never used the word God. I never use the word anything until? I? lie? And then I try my best to say, while I’m talking the word say, “It is this but it is also that.” Because when you say, if you describe things in relative words, terms, when I tell you the thing is nothing, “nothingness” is a relative substance. When I tell you that your discovery will bring you to a point of everythingness and nothingness, you’ll understand that now we are no longer relative. And you get a vague idea at least of an absolute experience.


But you can’t duplicate it. Don’t try to duplicate it. The answer lies in each person’s determination to find for himself, to find a simple thing – your own definition. Now don’t look for God. If he shows up accidentally, or it shows up accidentally, that’s well and good. But the main thing is to find out who’s living.

I made up my mind when I was 21 years of age that if I didn’t know who was living, I didn’t want to live. Somehow I came to the conclusion that life was not important [if] – so many things were happening to me that I didn’t particularly like. And I – you try to blame yourself. You can’t blame yourself: you didn’t draw this blueprint. It’s like, you know who the most enlightened people are in any group in this country? You’d be surprised; they’re not in the monasteries: Alcoholics Anonymous.

Q. Why?

R. Because they had to surrender to be saved. They had to finally give up and say, “I am not important. I will drop my importance, I’ll drop all these damned egos, and hope to Christ that somebody helps me. “

Q. They have to admit that they have no control over themselves.

R. Yeah, right, absolutely. They – and I didn’t know this until I gave a lecture in Columbus [which?] A man – I was talking about alcoholics and this guy sent me, he said, “I’ll send you a little booklet by Bill Wilson [Rose says “Bob Miller” – could that be this? http://www.sobrietytalks.com/item/BOB-MILLER---YORK-PA-8-18-02-413 ] who founded Alcoholics Anonymous. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob Smith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous Bob Miller [no] was an enlightened man. He tells about his experience in this little pamphletI thought, “This is amazing.” See footnote: A. Papers quote mj1-22:40

I know a fellow [who lives] in Texas – I mentioned him in the book also [Checked – not in the Albigen Papers, but is in essay “Defining the Truth”, (which appears in Carillon according to SearchWithin.Org) published here: http://www.searchwithin.org/journal/tat_journal-09.html#2 .] He was likewise an alcoholic. And after his experience he looked like an alcoholic yet. You go back to the same body. But he had been an aviator in World War II. And a devout Christian. And he had dropped some big bombs on Japan. And it started bugging him. Because he said, “God’s in charge of this universe; what’s he need this war for? Why do I have to go out here and kill these people?”


So he got to talking to himself, and the Army people cashiered him out. They said, “You’re safer for us at home.” You know, you’re liable? to drop those bombs in other? places. So they sent him home. He came home, he was down in Texas. He started babbling to himself down there and his wife threw him out. He wasn’t making any money. So he said he didn’t know what to do. He never had any esoteric teaching. He still doesn’t know what esoteric talk? is?


I met him in a mutual friend’s garage. , Because the guy – we met at his house and he had 10 kids. ?? ?? so we went out in the garage to talk. And I was utterly amazed when I heard this man speak. He took a job at a car dealership, and he said the stuff was hitting the fan. He just couldn’t go on; he got so he wanted to kill himself. He was in misery. He was drinking. And finally he said, he went to the Bible – because he had been a fundamentalist – and he said if there’s anything in religion, it’s got to be there. So he said, somewhere in the Bible it said, “If you would get an answer, pray thusly,” and what followed was the Lord’s Prayer.


So he took the Lord’s Prayer – and he lived it. I mean he meditated on it, he repeated it to himself, he studied it. He said, “If there’s anything there, I’m going to hang on until I get it.” And he said – but he didn’t get any better, he got worse. And he said still he didn’t have enough guts to kill himself, but he said one day he had a bad day at the office and he put his head down on the table and prayed for God to kill him. And he wokee up in the hospital a week later.

And he said that during that week he lived the Absolute. He saw – he could pinpoint any point in history and live it. And when I heard him talking I knew, because, well. I’m sitting there and this garage incidentally is full of scientists. They were all people from Firestone, it was in Akron, or Cuyahoga Falls, and these were all scientists and they’re sneering: Oh, Jesus, what’s this guy doing? Where’s he coming from?” He had a beautiful wife, incidentally. He had remarried and this woman was one of the most beautiful women I have ever seen. And this guy looks like Crazy Guggenheim. You know who I’m talking about? He looked like he had been boiled in booze. Like a lobster.


So these guys were running? around? and? chasing? her? – what was his name? Paul Woods. [Wood] So some of these guys are asking questions and he says, “All I can do is tell you what happened.” So they left, most of them left, thinking that he was ...

So he had to go to the toilet or something and he got up and left, and his wife brought us in some coffee, she had a tray. Everybody was looking her over and thinking, “What’s this cute girl doing with this bum? This guy doesn’t make a living even, sells slippers? vacuum sweepers and stuff.” And they said, “Hey, what do you think of your husband?” She never batted an eye. She looked at the fellow and says, “Mt husband is my lord and savior,” and kept on pouring. And she knew it. She knew what had happened.


But he told me. He said he had no worries. I – he had seen more; maybe he has found some formulae that I – I should have stayed, I was only, I was out about a day. He was out for a week [check Martin and article] But this guy never – everything came to him. He absolutely, he said, “You’re doing the Lord’s work, you don’t have to worry.” You have to have faith., see. So – I came back, and I tried to tell a few people too.

Q. (or possibly Rose) inaudible

R. Because they’re not ready. You don’t talk unless people have ears, that are open. You have to be, they have to be – if a guy’s interested in who’s on first base, okay, he’ll understand if you’re talking about baseball. But if he’s interested in something else, why then you’re talking the wrong language for him. Most people, more people are interested in who’s on first base than they are in what the answer is.


Because – not only that, but they, ?? I’ve watched when I give lectures, I see somebody in the audience, it dawns on them: “Oh, this guy’s talking about  ?? pretty drastic change.” I had a young ?? we went to ?? it’s expensive. Because – my daughter – I wrote the book and handed it to my daughter. I said, “Before it goes to print I want you to look over it,” because she had ?? ?? chemistry major, ?? she was pretty intelligent. So I walked back in the room and it was opened, about to 20 pages, and she’s staring straight ahead. I pulled it – I don’t think she saw me pull it off her lap. And I didn’t say anything. Later, about two months, I said, “What did you think about the book?” She looked at me and said, “Dad, I have games to play.” And she said, “I know where you’re headed,” burt she said, “I have games to play.”


And this is the – if people are honest, this is what happens. We had a girl who was sitting in the circle with Frank – Frank and his wife – and another man came in with his wife, we’re sitting there, and this lady was about 25 years of age, she was a beer joint bouncer – by thaat I mean she bounced from beer joint to beer joint, a dance hall dancer. And how she came to get into the room I don’t know, because she didn’t care for what we were doing. She was out in the kitchen eating, but she came in and got hit, and hit the floor. The voltage hit her and she went down on the floor and cried for about two hours.

And she went to the mountain experience. he saw the world, everything as an illusion. This is one of the things you’ll notice? notes, and ?? witness – hat nothing exists, except like smoke. And she looked at her husband and she said, “I know you don’t exist.” And finally she couldn’t go any further. And I got her up off the floor, I mean like she was crouched, with her head on the floor, on her knees. And – we didn’t see her again.

So somebody asked her, “How come you never – you had this wonderful experience,” – she followed me out into the kitchen and thanked me: “Oh, how wonderful all this was,” you know. And I said, “Don’t talk to me [thank me] – you convey this to somebody else. This is what you’re charged. You work with somebody else.” So several years went by, and somebody ran into her and said, “Hey,” you know, “I can’t see how you could have this experience and go back to the beer joints and the dance halls.” And she said, “I have games to play.” You know, “I don’t want ?? that thing yet.”

So sometimes I think it’s an accident, where people get a glimpse of something and they don’t care for it. And then there are people who work, desperately work to find it, and it seems lkike it takes them years


Q. But you have to be sincere, I understand, to find ...

R. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t really believe that. I do believe you can pass up opportunities. But [somebody else says something inaudible] yeah, I think that most people – first of all – you have a capacity somehow in proportion to your hunger. Too great a hunger and no great capacity would blow up your stomach. See what I mean?

Q. [to somebody else]

R. So I know people who are – for instance, are of a fundamental capacity, that if they get this – if you go through a death experience of that sort that knocks you down and you wind up in a hospital – I didn’t go to the hospital, but I ...

[break in tape] mj1 ends at 31:24

File mj2

File mj3


 Url: http://www.direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1977-0521-Symposium-Washington-DC-Informal
 “The Siphonaptera”   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Siphonaptera 

Big fleas have little fleas, Upon their backs to bite 'em, And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so, ad infinitum.

 Depends on the animal.
 The Spiritual Teaching of Ramana Maharshi.
 See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Consciousness_(book) 
 This is an errror. Bucke was a resident of Montreal but was in London, England when the experience happened. <<< get page quote from CC..
 See chart: http://albigen.com/uarelove/sahaja.htm 
 Rose:”‘ ‘This is it, wow!’ Suddenly a realization that their mind is able to grasp something.” From 1977-1004-Psychology-of-Zen-Science-of-Knowing-OSU.
 See Pyramid Zen Society Newsletter
 Died AD 850 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangbo_Xiyun 
 In wiki: http://www.direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=No-chan-in-china-no-zen-in-china 

In directory 00-Documents/ no-chan-in-china have Case 11 Huang Po’s Gobbler of Dregs. Partial list No Chan in China.docx This is the footnote from 1992-0326-Truth-Lies-Ultimate-Reality-Pitt (distributed 2/7/2013: Huang Po, Blue Cliff Record, case 11: http://www.treetopzencenter.org/HuangPosGobblers.html Orthodox Zen says the story is a koan. Rose takes the words literally, which is consistent with accounts of the rarity of enlightened individuals in these monasteries, and monks able to receive transmission, such as described in the story of Hui Neng.

 Albigen Papers, Chapter 5, Obstacles to Transcendental Efforts: “Strangely enough, out of all of this conflict of attitudes have occasionally emerged men of great spiritual stature. I would not advise anyone to take the alcoholic path in order to find spiritual amazement, for the simple reason that the gods seem to desert alcoholics in great numbers. The percentage of alcoholics that free themselves from the depths of addiction is very small in comparison to the number of alcoholics that die in the addiction or commit suicide.”
 The Air Force was part of the Army in WWII.
 Unbeknownst to Rose, Paul Wood died in 1965. According to Robert Martin, Rose met Wood on two occasions in 1963. See next footnote.
 Robert Martin, Peace to the Wanderer, search on Leon Paul Wood. http://selfdefinition.org/rose/ 
 See Paul Wood story: http://selfdefinition.org/christian/paul-wood-story.htm 
 Still living, write for details.