1979-Moods-Ohio-State-from-DME

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Title	1979-Moods-Ohio-State-from-DME
Recorded date	1979
Location	Ohio State, Columbus, Ohio
Number of tapes	2 x 60 min
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Source	J
No. of MP3 files	Four files: 32 min; 29 min; 32 min; 32 min
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Transcription status	Done by Mike Fitzpatrick
Link to distribution copy	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ (need password)
Link to PDF	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?	Direct-Mind Experience (Chapter 2) - Copyrighted
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URL at direct-mind.org	https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1979-Moods-Ohio-State-from-DME
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Revision timestamp	20260111160057

Notes

NOTE: THIS TRANSCRIPTION IS THE VERSION PUBLISHED IN DIRECT-MIND EXPERIENCE.

In the book the heading states: "From the Original Notes"

The version in the recording is very different from the book.

THIS IS ALSO A COMMERCIAL RECORDING - DO NOT DISTRIBUTE

Title, etc

LECTURE ON MOODS

Columbus 1979

From the Original Notes

From book

[as is, with a few typo fixes]

I am going to talk about moods. But first I would like to talk a little about a book I wrote, that has to do with a new or different approach to psychology. In it I pointed out mental conditions which I called states of mind. One of the things which contributes strongly to a state of mind is the mood. A state of mind carries conviction and may result from a long period of accumulation of various convictions and those convictions may have been inspired by totally non-logical moods. And of course when we hear the term "non-logical" we are inclined to react negatively, presuming that anything non-logical should be negated.

I am continually recommending a new approach to psychology, and when I do this, I have to identify the objectionable psychology as "modern psychology" which is predominately behaviorism. Psychology should be a study of the mind, not the body. Psychologists since the turn of the century, found it easier to study the body than the mind, so they decreed that the mind was protoplasmic or somatic. In so doing they became anatomists.

On the other hand, I must admit that the recommended "new psychology" is not new. We find its roots in older systems, but we have also evolved new understandings from the method of introspection combined with the study of long term observations of mental states and their origins rather than their effects upon society. And from this study we are amazed to find parallels in the older systems which perhaps laid no claim to being scientific or psychological.

Zen, for instance is one of the older systems. It employed the direct mind technique for communicating (transmission) with others and for viewing the inner self directly. I do not maintain that all current systems purporting to be Zen, follow the four identification tenets of ancient Zen. Modern or American Zen, at last has become dogmatic, ritualistic and in some places, -- money-conscious.

I would like to mention homeopathy and Gestalt Psychology here. Homeopathy is identified as a system of healing which treats the person by observing all the symptoms together, a "totality of symptoms" according to Hahnemann. This "umbrella-view" would certainly apply to psychology. I will not go into details, but I found that Hahnemann came up with some psychological wisdom, by finding a common denominator in a majority of healers... not necessarily homeopathic healers. They were celibate or sexually conserving.

Gestalt Psychology favors placing or fixing the diagnostic attention on patterns of thinking, or gestalten, rather than on individual reflexes. This is the umbrella-view... being applied to psychology.

Now, in The Albigen Papers, I indicated the importance of knowing the influence of a state of mind. A state of mind is a gestalt. And if you want to understand states of mind, you must observe moods. Moods are important. They can lift us to the highest human mental experiences or reduce us to murder and suicide.

In my years of meditation, I discovered that possibly, the greatest enemy that man has, is his own mind. I came to this conclusion long before I studied Zen. And when I studied Zen, I found corroboration for my previous intuitive discovery. This discovery is common knowledge to anyone who has studied Zen. They talk about killing the mind. And that is a frightening statement.

But in direct mind introspection, the mind stares at itself, and eliminates the mind-functions that would prematurely destroy the body, or would distort the ability to recognize the true states of mind. Only the true states of mind will lead us to the True Scientific Realization.

Now I said that moods can lift us to pleasant heights or drag us down to mental states that lead to murder or suicide. Yet at the same time I maintain that even the darker moods which lead to despair and death will turn into good for us if we view them from a detached or superior position, or we might say from the umbrella-viewpoint. Pleasant moods indicate correct direction, that is, direction toward ultimate realization or peace of mind. Unpleasant moods are signals to review our aims. Even unpleasant moods may be the result of tremendously pleasant experiences, wherein the depression results from an intuitive recognition that the sensuosity is a sliding board that sweeps us irrevocably into a mental trap in which the sensuosity is blunted or jaded, and in which the vision of simple serenity is never attainable.

In order to evaluate moods from a superior position, we have to study them after they have passed. Moods do not let us go, just because they made us unhappy or suicidal. Yet after the mood has passed, and has been studied, the analysis has to involve some picture of its origin, and some determination of the means to avoid its reccurrence in the future. Booze will not lift us from a depressed mood. Nor should booze or dope be used to celebrate the arrival of a mood of peace, serenity or selfless joy.

Moods do not cause suicide. They cause or re-trigger states of mind. The state of mind then facilitates an easy return of the mood. Suicide results from a state of mind, fed by recurrent moods.

States of mind are not caused by moods alone. Murders can occur as a result of a state of mind which has no origin in a single mood. Such as murders for a calculated profit, or in the case of mercy-killings.

In the search for sources of states of mind, I think that there are factors that transcend mere environment and heredity ... unless we wish to -- redefine environment as regions far beyond the planet earth or other-dimensions -- and to redefine heredity to include prenatal planes and dimensions. There is a temptation to take such ideas as astrology, reincarnation and predestination a little more seriously, -- in the search for such sources.

I often think of my own family. I was one of four boys, who had the same environment, but had entirely different states of mind. Different philosophic goals, moral values, -- opposite ethical postures and totally different relationships with society ... or reactions to society. I could not explain these differences better than by saying that one of us had a curse on him, the other had a lucky star or blessing, and another had inherited a lot of his father's traits and weaknesses. And the fourth was cast in a fatalistic mold. As a child he wore a perpetual look of apprehension... and his features seemed old. In his teens he became a fatalist. It was part of him, or it was him. I do not ever remember seeing him laugh or cry. He had absolutely no sense of fear. He lived as though he waited for death. He died when he was twenty-five.

Psychology has not yet given us a system by which we can understand our neighbor... or our relatives. Behavior is not yet predictable. We constantly read of incidents where psychiatrists, or whole groups of psychiatrists and psychologists, such as in mental institutions, have pronounced a patient cured and safe for society, -- only to learn that their patient went out, and in a matter of weeks, killed someone for little or no reason. Behavior is more predictable among members of a family, because they are in constant contact with each other, and because of this, they are prepared for or accustomed to, -- changes of states of mind. Also, members of a family generally share the same state of mind about the nature of people outside of their immediate family. Closely knit communities have a state of mind in common, which outsiders might identify as regional prejudice. Residents in institutions reach a common state of mind which often manifests itself in a unique moral code, and a language unintelligible to outsiders.

You cannot analyze people by asking them questions. You are likely to get tangential answers, excuses and lies. And you will get answers that the person was unaware of giving, or unaware of his reasons for giving. Or he may give you an answer that he thinks you might like to hear.

If you really want to know a person, you have to step inside his head. You cannot do it mechanically. Every man has his own separate mold. The factors that make up his personality are so numerous that only an intuitive mind can come up with a composite reading or diagnosis. There is growing agreement among psychologists that I.Q. tests fail to calibrate intelligence. Too many people who could not adjust to our educational standards in their youth, later became geniuses, business tycoons or great spiritual leaders.

When we talk about stepping inside someone's head, we are talking about rapport. When this happens you join with his mood. Moods are like colored glass through which we view the world, and because of which we build states of mind. You have to peep into the other fellow's head and look out through his glasses. And when you do this, you are liable to join his team.

I would like to go directly now to the study of moods. I found that the study of dreams led me to a better understanding of moods. And naturally the only dreams that you can study, are your own. The subject-matter of a dream is not as important as the "feel" of a dream. You may feel as though a message is being conveyed to you through feeling which has nothing to do with the grotesque or fantasy-like events in the dream.

Now I should qualify that statement about being unable to study only your own dreams. You can study dream-records of others, for statistics and comparisons. Some dreams bring us memories from the past. Some may be prophetic. Some may involve conversations with living or deceased people. There may be some value in keeping a record of the events or messages of these dreams, especially those which appear to be prophetic.

The type of study which I am talking about, when it comes to your own dreams -- especially the feeling content of them -- cannot ever become recorded statistics. So in one sense, this study cannot be called a scientific study. It is difficult to record feelings. Feelings must be felt.

It will, however become a new language for you. And while the study of this aspect of dreams is extremely subjective, we will still pick up patterns of dreams, and categories of moods which are like costumes in which the dreams are clothed.

In regard to categories of dreams, I have found that there are three major moods in dreamland. Dreamland is a separate place, a stage or a state. One of the moods is Fear. Another is Seduction or acquisition. And the third is Nostalgia. And I wonder how many of you have encountered that word Nostalgia Before, in any analysis of human thinking.

The above three moods represent three great motivations that for some reason have been ingrained or programmed into all people. I think that the understanding of the effects of moods, and combinations of moods will bring us closer to an understanding of the non-somatic mind, and how it affects ... seriously... the life of the body.

Psychology has existed (in its formal form) for a century, and it survived and flourished without a definition for sanity. Its achievements in biochemistry have preserved a form for it... a sort of body without a soul.

I think it might be a good idea to look for our understanding of the mind in the mind itself. We cannot choke it out of the body.

Let us take a condition called delirium. I do not think that any of us will say that delirium is a sane or desirable condition. Delirium is a deep mood... a fear-mood. It is a mood that comes upon the mind when the body is very sick or asleep. The nightmare is a projected fear-mood. Guilt is a mood. Guilt is a combination of Fear and Nostalgia.

Let's take a look at the seduction-mood as it manifests itself in dreams. Or the acquisition form of Seduction as it manifests itself. Something in the unconscious mind reaches out and seizes things which may never have been physically attained. I would like to hear some of your dreams... if you have any of this type. I can remember acquisitive dreams that stuck in my memory. Some were people... girls... most of whom I never met. Some were of property, and some were of objects... cars, friendly pets, personal possessions, and valuables.

Sometimes the moods became mixed in a single dream. For instance, not too long ago I dreamed that I was in Baltimore. I found a field that had once been part of the city. Nothing was left but bricks and rubble and an abandoned railroad track, and here and there, -- a part of a building. The acquisitive instinct was strong. I saw an opportunity to start a building project. I had an idea -- standing there along the tracks -- that I could buy the land, and use one of the building fragments as a place to live, while I built new houses, one at a time.

But then suddenly a wave of sadness came over me. I suddenly felt very tired, and I realized that I was not the young man who arrived in Baltimore more than forty-five years ago. Then the desire to leave the place, started me toward home. I found that the rubble extended farther and farther. I sensed that I was in a corner of Southwest Baltimore, and kept looking for the Montgomery Ward building and for a bus station. It seemed that I would never get out.

This was a combination of an acquisitive and a nostalgic mood-combination. The acquisitive part was the land, and the opportunity for wealth in the future. But then, even in my dream-state, I realized that there was no future like that possible. Then the Nostalgia came in. The Baltimore location in the dream came from Nostalgia, it was the town where the dreams of my youth started to unfold. But when I realized that I was an old man, my Nostalgia shifted to West Virginia, and I became desperate in trying to get home.

Now behind all this traumatic dream was a message. What do you think it was? I have a feeling about it. My feeling of the dream may be right or wrong, in regard to its message, but the message is "act your age." Or "All that is built is now rubble." Or, "The days of your physical service are over."

I maintain that the nostalgic mood becomes the language of the soul It is the inner man trying to get through the earth-man's paradigm, to communicate with him.

Many people take dreams lightly. They demand sensory confirmation for all phenomena. But I have a view from another angle. We might call it an esoteric angle, and it might contribute to an esoteric psychology.

Now modern psychology is based upon what you see... and God help us if we only saw what the senses delivered to us. We would be very confused in our actions. For instance, we know that the retina picks up an inverted image. There is an adjustment that goes on that turns the world right-side-up, that rectifies hallucinations that we see, and enables us to survive mirages.

Also, under hypnosis the subject apparently sees things, which in reality are only suggestions of the hypnotist. Now we have done a lot of experiments in this department... where you give a person a drink of water, telling him that it is alcohol, and then watch him take on all the symptoms of drunkenness.

Or, you can tell a hypnotized man that a sack of potatoes nearby is really a man... and he will treat it as though it is a man and try to talk to it. At one of our Chautauquas, a young hypnotized girl was given a broom, and told that it was a guitar. I asked her to play something on it. She was now in a post-hypnotic state at the time, incidentally. She replied that she never learned to play a stringed instrument. I assured her that the guitar would be very easy to play, and that her attempts to play would bring with it the magic of perfect knowledge of the procedure. And so she proceeded to strum the broom and sing.

She indulged in a vision of the mind. These hypnotic antics are nearly all the result of a vision of the mind. We perceive with the mind not the senses... and I think that a little thinking will make this clear to you.

What happens is this: First we apprehend something either by sight or other senses. We see stuff for instance. But the mind readjusts the incoming neural message or impingement of light on the optical apparatus. It adjusts such things as an inverted retinal image, and any contrariness in the way we pick up a scene with our limited color range of perception.

Next the mind projects a mental image back out to our environment, which makes up that which all consider to be a true scene, -- a true environment. It is only when we have watched a hologram, or survived a mirage, that we are able to understand the inaccuracy of the perception process, and understand that the mind is capable of projecting a false image before our physical eyes.

If you are looking for books on the subject of true inner vision as opposed to erratic sensory vision there are two which you should read: J. J. Van der Leeuw's Conquest of Illusion, and the story of the man in the cave in Plato's Republic. Plato saw two worlds with man being caught in the unreal one.

Our sensory organs are not all that is erratic. Even though the somatic mind (brain-mind) adjusts things despite improper or incomplete sensory ability, -- that somatic mind in turn can be fooled. This is demonstrated by the hypnosis described.

The key to understanding this is the understanding of moods. The hypnotist creates a mood, and amplifies it until the subject acts. The hypnotist is a wielder of moods, fear, nostalgia and acquisitiveness. He can cause a panic by treacherous conditioning.

While we are on the subject let us identify the hypnotic conditioners. They are rarely the stage hypnotists. The stage hypnotist generally points out that he is inducing a false state of mind for entertainment purposes. His conditioning is momentary.

There are people and organizations, whose main purpose is to condition people on a massive scale, simply to expand their field of power. These are the clergy, the politicians, vested interests such as unions, and the field of behavior-psychologists, chemo-therapists (psychiatrists), and a sea of bumbling counselors, some with degrees in psychology, and many with no accreditation beyond a role previously played in some encounter-group, ministerial function, or as a comforter for hospital patients.

Everyone is trying to become a conditioner of the public. Just turn on the television if you do not believe this. Watch for the process of first creating a mood... or all the three at once, Nostalgia, Fear and Acquisitiveness. Grandpa drinks lemonade, or the honest-looking farmer leans on the fence and sells you tobacco. This is Nostalgic-appeal. Then Fear is applied, -- beware of the competitor, he is out to rob you. Acquisitiveness is now the clincher. The ten thousand dollar car comes with a beautiful semi-naked girl on every fender. Come down to the bank and get rich on your savings... an underpaid clerk on a TV commercial, -- will tell you with the studied sincerity of a high-paid actress. And so on.

To recapitulate a bit here on this process of illusion which I have just described, I mentioned three stages of perception. First we have a sensory impingement (or percept), which is picked up by one of the sensory organs. Second, there is an adjustment which occurs in the somatic mind. I use the word somatic mind to identify with the "reflexive" mind of the behaviorists at its best. But there is a faculty or Mind beyond and more accurate than the somatic mind. Hence the emphasis on definition. Thirdly, the somatic mind projects upon the physical scenery before us, a vision of its readjusted world.

But... we would never know this third trick (projection) if we did not possess an anterior faculty, -- anterior and superior to the somatic mind. This faculty or Mind, I call the Process-Observer. Brunton called it the Overself.

All moods and states of mind are not induced by other people. There is an archetypal source for some moods. We were talking about this in the kitchen the other day. There are basic moods for all mankind. And it is possible that even animals manifest moods under or in response to experiences in a consistent uniform manner. Nearly all small animals frolic like children, and they manifest a pleasant mood when doing so. Cattle mourn the death of a member of the herd. Horses tease each other and tease humans.

We have many moods in common with animals. It seems that animals are programmed to instinctively fear predators for their species. The question came up about the human fear of snakes, as well as unreasonable pleasant reaction by people to certain dreams. Dreams are visions, and sometimes we have to search for the vision which casts us into a dream.

Can we apply a Freudian interpretation (sex) when we dream of a snake? Or do we have a nightmare about snakes because of a religious association of the snake with Satan?

What is the proportional occurrence of light, bright light in our dreams? How many of you have dreamed of a bright sun? Or of just a blinding light that is occasionally described as being seen by people who have been pronounced dead, and later revived? I find very few people who have dreamed of a bright light, but many dream of darkness, abysses. It would be interesting to compare the statistical representation or occurrence of black dreams and bright light dreams.

Darkly colored dreams are foreboding and depressing. All life responds to light. A beautiful day puts us into a happy mood. So it seems that the mood that results from the beautiful day is common to all life forms capable of showing expression. We dread the darkness of oblivion and the smothering blackness of the grave.

When we realize with Plato that this pageant of life is an illusion, we can somehow understand that the higher mind of man -- call it a soul or whatever you wish -- is trying to convey to us that our daylight hours are really drab and miserable and not conducive to genuine light or genuine happiness.

Dreamland is a place, where faulty computations are aired, and often where profound revelations come from something deep inside of us... which can only come out when the feverish activity of the day is paralyzed in sleep.

The dreamland experiences, even though they are nightmares, are not as dangerous to us as the moods of daytime. Nature or some mechanism or programming of the mind causes us to forget our dreams more quickly than our daytime mental experiences.

The moods that result from being thrown into jail, from being rejected by a close relative or lover, or from being overwhelmed by a series of devastating financial or social losses, can in turn result in death for the body, meaning suicide.

I know of cases of at least five young people who recently hanged themselves in jail, after being arrested a few days before for misdemeanors. They were killed by moods, -- in each the mood resulted from being faced with a new and powerful reality. For a couple it may have been the change from a drug mood for a mood that threw the drug mood into jeopardy. While in the drug mood, the moods of the outer world seemed like corruption. When deprived of the drug (marijuana or amphetamines at the worst), they were forced to deal with the state of mind of people equally bewildered but simply doggedly following the rules of another paradigm. Suicide followed when illumination presented both states of mind as being corrupt, farcical and inescapable. And for those who had not been jailed for drugs the trauma had similar form, -- suicide was the only escape from two intolerable alternatives, represented by strong states of mind.

Moods are easy to enter, but difficult to get rid of. You cannot talk yourself out of a deep depression which is the same as a state of mind.

Sometimes people try to drink themselves out of it, or knock it out with pills, but when the alcohol or drug wears off, they return to a still deeper depression. You cannot divest yourself of the mood while you are in it, nor when you are drunk or doped. To fight the mood you must catch the moment of sanity somewhere between sobering up and the return of the depression. At that point you must manage to make up your mind as to the future use of alcohol or drugs as a sedative, and at that same time you have to get a plan of action going for relief from the mood that depressed you. Sometimes a change of environment will help.

Once you are caught in a mood that persists, it is like being abandoned in the middle of the ocean and knowing that you have to swim. The realization of hopelessness magnifies the mood. It becomes a disease... a delirium.

Let us examine the Nostalgic Mood. It can be a very pleasant mood, or somewhat lethal when it is found in combination with a black mood of fear. Playing nostalgic tunes from childhood days, may bring out violence in a deeply depressed person.

I have read quotations from several authors who have said that the most painful thing to have is an intensely pleasant memory. The memory takes us back to better days to which there is no return. We have drifted away, forgotten it, and upon being reminded we hunger for the days of seeming perfection.

There are people who can consciously or unconsciously manipulate the moods of men to a degree that they drive the subjects out to the marketplace, where they give up their money.

What are the ingredients in the formula for seduction through Nostalgia? Colors impel the moods. Lavender, gold or yellow, violet and grey.and light green. Green represents hope, and the green fields of youth. Violet and grey are painted into pictures of benign old people. Pink and gold depict the eternality of youth and childhood.

Now we get the smell of lilacs, the sachet odors of infancy, the smell of a field of newly mowed hay, the smell of cool water, or the smell of wood from a campfire.

Seduction and sales can be facilitated with organ music, with violins or even banjos, with the lute and the harp, or with the hunting horn if you liked to hunt, or with the bugle if your heart has a fondness for military memories. Bagpipes have a damning seduction all of their own.

As for music we are all familiar with sentimental music. Red Sails in the Sunset. The Old Pine Tree. Mother Macree. The Battle Hymn of the Republic. Put My Little Shoes Away. In the Gloaming.

What are some of the stage-props, and the scenes used by television advertisers? The rocking chair, the handmade cradle, the upright piano, satin and velvet, the spinning wheel. The scenes are repeated thousands of times, but they never fail to kindle that unreasonable nostalgia. The barefoot boy and his dog. The wild stallion on the horizon. The young girl waving a farewell from the porch of the old farmhouse. The old sailor leaning on his cane, looking out on a shrinking ship on the sea. The gazebo. The old mill. The talking brook. Currier and Ives prints.

The Nostalgic Mood is unreal, and yet it grips us relentlessly. Whether it is a dream or a moving picture that instigates it. We see nostalgic dramas, and say to ourselves, "Why cannot we live that way?"

But life is never that way because the drama only shows one fractional side of life. The crude elements of life are left out of the drama. Our childhood as viewed thirty years later, seems to have been idyllic. But after a while miserable memories associated with that same period of childhood will resurrect themselves, and then we may realize that we long for a chance to turn back the clock more than anything else."

When this happens... when the disenchanting realities return to us, we cannot help but stamp all nostalgic experiences as being unreal. On the other hand this mood had to have an origin besides the longing for eternal childhood. We are only momentarily fooled by the nostalgia, because down through the years we are acutely aware of the erosions of time, and the irrevocable daily steps of aging.

However, let us not be in a hurry to denounce Nostalgia, because it later appears unreal, or because some merchant uses it upon us to sell his goods. Through our nostalgic mood it is possible that something in our inner mind is trying to communicate something to us... to the extent that that inner mind has a sympathetic sorrow for our confused states of mind, and a deeper memory of a time when we were free from anguish and sorrow. Our first reaction to the awareness or existence of the faculty for Nostalgia, is one of pleasantness. When we learn that it is being used against us by merchants, politicians, governmental departments and social workers, -- it becomes offensive and negative.

Yet the intuition persists... that something inside of us is trying to open our head to a whole new dimension with a whole new language. Nostalgia in the final analysis may not be an element of illusion, alone.

Let us take the books by Eleanor Porter, such as Pollyanna. Some of her characters are little girls who are seemingly sad and restrained, modest, wisely observing life like an adult but filled with inhibition in the face of any urges which anyone at all might not like.

These quaint little girls are loved by everyone because they are harmless, sweet or wholesome. They are so perfect that they could only inspire negative feelings in a pedophile.

Let us take a look at a book and drama called Jane Eyre. Here we are likewise thrown into a nostalgic mood. Why? The theme of the story is inhibited, almost fearful seduction. The girl is so modest that she smothers her passion for years rather than admit any hormonal activity. The male is a noble, stallion type who wears a shield of petulance and propriety to preserve the impeccable British posture. Or hypocrisy.

Why are we addicted to movies that find a glory for their characters, because the characters are noble, self-sacrificing even in love, and loyal to their mates, even if both mates have to die as virgins. Now we can analyze this reaction on our part by claiming that we become infatuated with the heroine if we are male, and with the hero if we are female. Being selfish, we identify with the characters so much that we weep in the theater when the heroine dies unrequited, we die a little when the hero falls on his sword. But in our identification we claim them in death as perfect or ideal lovers for ourselves.

Even though we go home that night to Mrs. Mudd.

But what is this thing in us, -- though we are lechers, -- that refuses to glorify that lechery, and causes us to turn to fables, -- to dream of eternality. Even if we know that we cannot escape our lechery and hypocrisy. Down deep inside ourselves we yearn for permanent peace, inviolable virginity, and love without lust or penalty.

Nostalgia is subtle and seldom identified by its victims or participants, but I am sure that it is responsible for ninety-five percent of all human behavior. The other five percent is split up between reactions to fear and seduction. We are able to send millions of young men out to die in foolish, or indecisive wars because those millions of young men are willing to perpetuate the image of selflessness, unrequited sex (in death) and nobility, to bring about a transcendent state of peace (which will never be fully realized.) And they joined the armies because of the nostalgic ads, the blaring bugles and bagpipes, the dramas that made the terror, carnage and death on the battlefield appear surmounted and obliterated in the eternal glow of selfless camaraderie.

Of course it took only a small percentage of the population (motivated by seduction and acquisitiveness), to organize torch-light parades, to hire actors and singers to pour forth an endless appeal to the millions of altruists, with nostalgic dramas and songs. I say that the manipulators are a small percentage, because of recent governmental reports that twenty-eight percent of the country's wealth is owned by two percent of the population.

The sad part of this civilization is that the majority of the people are trying to live like Pollyanna, but it does not work. To preserve mom and apple pie, we vote laws into being that protect the two percent, who in turn care little about the perpetuation of altruism. The two percent are above the law.

Nostalgia basically reflects that which people really want. To get that which they think that they want, they vote tax burdens upon themselves in the hope of having a paradise on earth. They readily approve levies to make expensive highways and public buildings, to create restricted parks (federal, state, county and city parks), and to hire more bureaucratic public servants who become our masters. In this socialistic paradise we employ thousands of PhD's to spoon feed an equal number of "exceptional" citizens. There is nothing wrong with dreaming about Utopia if the dreams are realistic, and they are not preyed upon by hucksters and the dead-weight of bureaucrats that have selfish interests.

What do people really want? Everyone wants to be free to acquire without conflict. Don't let them tell you that they do not want anything or that they are going to live for humanity.

They want peace because they are worn out from ten thousand years of struggle in the jungle. The whole archetypal memory of man is strained with centuries of slaughter. He wants permanency and peace. But he wants freedom to acquire. But conflict comes with the acquisition process.

Nostalgia for eternal peace makes man long for peace and unchanging status. But the same element of Nostalgia is used against him to march to destruction to the tune of ballads and bagpipes, or to ruin him and his family with the taxes and legislation that he imposed upon himself in a mood of idle fancy about Utopia.

The more man is seduced, the more Nostalgia becomes painful. The continuance of this pain leads him to reject the dreams of childhood, -- the dreams of eternal paradise, or perpetual Christmas. The things which Nostalgia hints as being real, or really desirable are scorned as idle fancy. These things which Nostalgia promises are states of inoffensiveness, kindness, love, peace, beauty and eternality. But these are the spiritual objectives that are written into every religion.

For more clues along this line, let us go back to dreams. I have had a strange common denominator in most of my dreams of people who are living or dead.

I found that the person in the dream often was tremendously different than the person whom I previously knew, -- in regard to personality and appearance. This happens more often with people who are deceased.

In the dream there is invariably, a direct-mind communication, but on occasion very distinct words have been spoken that bore out the change of personality or reactions of the person. I have dreamed of people whom I disliked, only to be surprised by a personality that was definitely friendly and acceptable. When I wakened I realized or remembered that I was surprised in or during the dream. When I awakened, I realized that my entire previous assessment of the person's personality was inaccurate.

The key to this was evident in a short sentence spoken by a man, now dead, who in life had given me some bad moments, to say the least. He stood erect and his face was youthful and radiant.

When he said, "You will never know how glad I am to be rid of that body," I knew that the body had been the catalyst in his negative personality. Ever since then I have had a compassion for the man, and a conviction that he taught me something, and that he knew ahead of time that my reaction would be acceptable to him. He was teaching me something.

Of course you can say that this is nothing but an emotional dream... in which nothing can ever be offered as evidence. But the message remains for me, (realized not in that dream alone), that if we can look beyond the body-personality, we can without dreams, learn the same things about people, because people have personalities that result from the drives and demands of the body. Most of us are helpless to do anything better than we are now doing it.

There is another possible revelation in this type of dream, which points beyond being an intuitional clarity, -- about human personality. It is the possibility that nostalgic dreams are a vehicle wherein we apprehend spiritual or absolute verities.

Somewhere out there, there may be a place which we once knew, or visited, where the stage-play was not as violent, hopeless or unfathomable. And this place or state cannot be witnessed by the frantic, relative mind. It would only be witnessed in a channel between the infinite and the finite... a unique mental faculty. It could occur in a passive meditation... or in a particular mood. But never by means of the faculty of logic. Anymore than this message can be conveyed to you by logical proof.

We can come up with certain conclusions. Man longs for peace and permanence, freedom from change. But these conclusions or any moods that speak for them are blown away by the daily exigencies of the nightmare of life. The ideal is wonderful, but we had better be pragmatic... it may never materialize.

The electorate nostalgically picks candidates that prattle about peace. Some of these candidates were so simpering, pious and affable that they were irresolute and helpless, or they were sly actors. And if they were just actors, they were still obliged to play out the farce of humility and harmlessness in the face of attacks by pragmatic savages.

How far do we carry this search for the humble, if not feminine man? I remember a television series about a teacher named Kotter. He was a sort of nut (I should say this was his role.) He was no threat to the underprivileged or to predatory dead-end kids.

Also on television we have social ambiguity and hypocrisy in the police shows. We have cops who are as affable as bishops, or as common as bad smelling mud (The Dukes of Hazzard.) We must avoid one-upmanship so in other serials he must be a black-Chinese-Spanish-Indian who is illiterate but lovable. The cop must love children, spend time with the Little League, and romp occasionally with the motorcycle gang... to show that he is a nice guy.

But in reality the police of this country commit more murders that the Mafia. They are famous for coining the term "drop-gun." Many police carry a second gun to leave on the body of the unarmed victim. A recent case was a victim in a southern state whose mother was a policewoman in the same area. I would estimate that every day in this country someone is killed by a policeman. I keep a clipping-file on police-shootings. It is not always an innocent person. Sometimes it is another policeman... or the mayor's protege.

And all of this goes on because we put our nostalgic heads in the sand.

A man spends a lifetime building up a business. He goes by the book. He studies mathematics, law, and psychological dexterity to manipulate his business or the stock market. Then one night after a period of exhaustion, he has a dream and blows his brains out. This is a fear-dream that produces a fear-mood, which ends in a fatal state of mind.

When it becomes evident that moods can cause suicide, that they can kill us, then what follows is the immediate need to do something about it besides the administering of anti-depressants or happy pills. We may be dealing with something that has little or nothing to do with body-chemistry.

A perfectly healthy and happy man or woman may become a victim to a mood and a resulting state of mind which in turn is fatal. In fact it may be the happy people who are plunged the most deeply into depression, because they have not become accustomed to living an unhappy life.

If we are going to study the cases of suicide, it may be good to note that many people commit suicide who are never listed as suicides. For instance Gary Gilmore committed suicide. From a prolonged jail-state of mind, he chose to die, but not by his own hand. The killing of others, seemingly for no justifiable reason, was his protest against the environment which smothered him.

We get into more detail about the mechanics of apparently illogical life and death. But then there may be little that is logical in living in something that becomes a snake-pit. To begin with, he was thrown into jail when he was young. In jail he was confronted with fear, and perhaps terror at times. How does a person overcome this under prison conditions? If you were at home, you might run out and get away from it, or take steps to protect yourself from the people who cause the fear.

In jail, the refuge from terror is anger or submission to the whims of brutal guards or perverts. When you choose anger, you have to arm yourself. A state of mind is established. The caged animal must develop a reflex to kill, -- hoping that his conviction will deter people with less important motivations.

Finally he gets out of prison. He meets a girl upon whom he projects every quality that Nostalgia can conjure up. He enters now a seductive mood, but the hopelessness of a permanent relationship with her, returns him to the nostalgic mood. This is evidenced by his appeal for her to join him in death. He longed for permanence more than for a short life of connubial struggling. For him there was only one resolution... the world was not a fit place to live in. He wanted to be with her, (or with love) forever. But not on earth.

And so he taunted the judges for a death sentence.

To get back to the mechanics of the Fear-mood, we have to look for a less than lethal solution. First we have to become an Observer of our self. This will enable us to get something besides a "selfish" or self-sympathetic view of reactions. When we really view the depression or Fear-mood from this perspective, we will realize that it is alien, and as corrosive as our human enemies.

The step to take now, is to summon a degree of anger against Fear, (which most prisoners direct against other people.) By facing the fear angrily, -- but all the while knowing that the anger is your message to the Fear-mood that threatens to become an entity more deadly than a virus, -- you can conserve your sanity, and be on the alert for other moods which in combination with Fear may be suicidal.

This does not mean that we should try to get into a state of mind that requires surrender of moral principles... or that we should hesitate to choose death over a hopeless and meaningless existence. It means that the decision to die should come about without the agony of delirious mental torment.

The same method of introspection should be applied to the Seduction-moods. And when we become the Observer instead of the actor, we will be less likely to generate a Seduction state of mind which hi tune may kill us.

To monitor the Seductive-Acquisitive moods we should study the daytime reveries, and the dreams of sleep. Being an Observer of seductive reveries does not mean that we have to indulge in them while studying them. It means that the Observer should be as detached as a third party. It means that the Observer should be as critical of our mental and physical reactions, as a man of seventy would be upon reviewing the absurd behavior of his adolescent years.

Studying the moods, even from the point of the Observer, will not always result in an accurate cataloguing of the moods observed, or even a correct identification of the mood. Since we do not know all of the factors and dimensions which affect our minds and cause moods, we will, in many cases only be able to observe the mood as a unique phenomenon which visits us, without immediately knowing its cause or source, -- or even knowing exactly which type of mood it is.

For instance, there is a Seduction mood which comes from glandular activity and which manifests itself in the form of reverie. But there is also an Acquisition mood (seduction is the acquisition of another person) which involves money and luxury ... or just particular objects, toys or property. Then there is an Acquisition mood which visits us with a particular person only, and which is accompanied by strong mental projection upon that person that just does not answer to good common sense when analyzed a few years later.

We are now talking about infatuation, with all of its unfathomable convictions, and the bizarre state of mind and reactions. Some people emerge from this mood by means of transferring their sexual focus and indulging their sexual energy, while others merge with despair. The former are able to laugh about the experience while lowering their calibre of sexual preferences. The latter choose death rather than abandon the idea of an ideal imago-type.

I think that the diagnosis of a projection of an imago-type is not the only cause for suicide in matters of moods. The imago-type is one associated with ideals of perfection. The vision pi the victim is generally one of a perfect union, (non-sexual in mtent) of two perfect people. But the extremely moral victim, generally chooses a flashy whore or whoremaster. So there is an element of confused narcissism involved here, where the object of enchantment is basically a mirror, or serves as a mirror.

But there may be still other factors which cause this disease called projection. There may be archetypal memories involved. Or the infatuation may result from some intuitional recognition of a compatible type of body-chemistry. Not all infatuations result in suicide. There are infatuated people who actually manage to marry their dream-mate. And some of these people live together for the rest of their lives. I found what I consider to be one factor in the society of the story-book marriage-group. This factor was heritage or nationality. Some sense an attraction to mates of their own nationality, and a rapport develops between them, to a point where they feel the Geist of that nationality blessing them. Others are drawn hypnotically to opposite nationalities, and the roles of worshiper and worshipee.

We might summarize here and try to list some of the functions of moods. Moods are subtle mental patterns which lead to states of mind. Moods are also a form of language for communicating about experiences, wisdom or feelings. They are the language of two people in deep rapport. They are also the language for communicating unverbalizable psychic experiences. And for these categories they may be the only means which we have to communicate the information desired, because the spoken languages have no suitable rhetorical art to transmit it.

They say that a picture is worth a thousand words. The picture will do the job only if the artist who painted the picture is skilled in conveying a mood with his brush. The artist must first be a sensitive person who copies a landscape to transmit the mood which the landscape imposed upon him. If the portrait is inspired by a person, (meaning it is not a portrait which he is paid to paint by another admirer), then his genius will struggle to convey every virtue of the subject so that everyone who sees the portrait will have the same admiration for the subjective facets of the subject which enhance the features and immortalize the portrait.

Painting, sculpturing and poetry are forms which are used to convey and immortalize moods. The artist or creator, never becomes involved in psychological analysis. He goes directly to your mind with his magic. The moods created by art and music are generally nostalgic moods.

We can see the mood-language expertly used by merchants who employ any and all moods to put us into a susceptible state of mind, but nearly all of the incidents described by me have been one-way mood projections. The artist conveys a mood to the viewer, and the merchant manipulates his customers with scientific precision.

This one-way projection of moods leaves us in the position of recipient if not victim... of this magical language. So we move to examine the factor which makes it possible for a two-way communication, or at least a better way of getting answers from intelligences so far unanswered across the thoughtless dimensions reached only by the accidental seeping of moods into our dreams or visions of mystics.

This factor or implement is rapport. It is not too mysterious. It is the same rapport that makes possible the accurate understandings between lovers. It is also the same rapport which enables total strangers in a college "thuse" to find genuine friendships, or enables participants hi an encounter-group to find revelations for themselves and fraternal tolerance in a matter of hours.

The same rapport -- which comes otherwise only in flashes or in fragmentary dreams, may bring us brief insights about dead relatives -- but still comes to us without any explanation as to the reason for such dreams being so fragmentary. We must find a way of asking.

And to do this we must study the nature of moods more deeply. We have only scratched the surface. I have a feeling that we will know more about other dimensions, when we have become proficient at finding a union or rapport with the intelligences of other dimensions, and this may in turn require that we learn to alter our state of being, -- which means we must become less body-oriented, and function more from impersonal

Unfortunately, as we are now, our personality-oriented Wanner of communicating not only with others, but even with ourselves inhibits communication on this dimension, and precludes any self-knowledge here.

To change our state of being is advisable even on the mundane dimension. And something is definitely preventing us from having a two-way communication with departed human intelligences. Presuming that we receive messages from them, it is very rare that we get a direct message. We have to either be visited by dream-moods, or have indirect, cryptic dreams, or dream scenarios which are difficult to interpret. We must be Realistic if we wish to find the Real. Our earth-language may well be the pit talk of vipers. And by earth-language I mean all of our theological and social understandings.

Question: You mentioned a couple of things, you said first of all that you cannot remove a mood and then you said later on that you have to survive a mood and become a better person. How come you say that you cannot remove the mood? Can't you change the environment and change the mood?

Rose: Not while you are in it, because it is basically, it is just like a fellow that drops acid into his stomach, so he gets into a mood, and he says, hey I want out, and he doesn't get out. It plays itself out, and a mood is pretty much the same thing. I believe that what I am saying is self evident. You have to view extremes if you want to understand anything. We can argue about moods for a long time, but you take a man, let's say that is awaiting death in the electric chair. You can't remove that man's mood by any type of argument, he will have to run through it.

Question: He can't change his environment.

Rose: He can change it after he wakes up, or if he ever gets out of jail, or if he engages in some philosophic watching of that mood. It will become less and less influential, that's the point.

Question: If the man was going to be electrocuted and suddenly he got released from jail, his mood would obviously change because he was removed from the mood, circumstances, that's why I don't understand what you are saying that you can't remove yourself from the mood because I think that if you change the circumstance....

Rose: Sure, but I am saying that you can't change it while it is on you, sure you can change it... you know what happened to you after the mood passes and you can say that I am not going to get myself into that situation again, that's what everyone tries to do.

Question: So from the experience you learn....

Rose: Right. Now you take some people, they don't. Take the alcoholic, I don't know too much about drug addiction but I came up in an alcoholic age, long before the pill. What does the alcoholic do, he gets into a mood, a depressive mood, and instead of him coming out of that he deepens and deepens until it kills him, until he can't get out of it. This is an old story, he justs gets into a deeper... and what is it? It is a combination, again I say that it is a combination of a wrong reading of a nostalgic urge. He remembers the time when his mother admired him, his wife loved him, his children respected him. That's Nostalgia. He sees a beautiful picture that he can't get back into, and he degrades himself with the regret, -- so he can't pull himself out of it. A majority of the people who get themselves into deep moods, require somebody else to pull them out. Now I say sometimes they get out, but what happens is that there is a strange egotistical repetitious circle to an alcoholic, most alcoholics that is. They get free of it, momentarily, and they are profoundly convinced that they are free of it forever, -- but maybe they are just dry one day, -- and they say, oh, I've got it licked, -- now I can take a little drink. He takes a little drink and two or three and then the depression is worse than it ever was before, because he has slipped again. Yet I believe that it is possible, but it is very difficult, to get out of a mood. But the main thing... and there has been a lot of data thrown out here today, -- I think that it is very important for you to be aware of and that is first of all that the states of mind are the most profound influences on man. You can go down the street and a billboard can throw you into a mood, but you will not be aware of it, and in that mood you may pick up a brick and throw it through a plate glass window or punch a policeman and wind up in jail. And when the People in jail ask, "What did you do... what happened... what went wrong?" you will probably reply that you did not really Know what brought on your anger.

You are not going to say, "I was in a mood." Very few People are aware of the fact that everything that they do is caused by moods. What is a mood? A mood is a profound feeling with conviction. This is the definition. It is not just a fanciful thought. There is the difference between a perception and a mood. The perception is the billboard. The mood is a whole state of mind that is awakened by the billboard.

To give you another example, the seduction thing is very strong, but it passes. It is not quite so addictive because nature has put in a factor so that eventually you get tired. But you get into a contradictory situation. I have heard guys say, "Boy, I wouldn't associate with that woman for any amount of money." And the next thing you see them going down there with a dazed look on their faces, arm in arm. The mood is on them, and they don't know what happened. Don't say anything to them or you will get in trouble, see....

Question: At the peak of each person's childhood he had a certain intuition and the maximum at that time. I was wondering if you could give some time when that would be in?

Rose: Intuition is present in the very young, but it is lost to seduction. There are certain mental characteristics of childhood that reach their peak at different times with different children. For instance I think that this demonstrates that a child loses his value because of seduction because his intuition diminishes with seduction. This is one of the reasons why I make a loud noise for morality, especially in regard to little children. I don't believe in allowing anyone who has had the temerity to have kids to allow those children to be thrown into improper moods, or to be destroyed. What some consider education may even be destruction. Now I am going to say something that I can't prove, but for what it's worth, I believe that a child when it is born is not totally present, not as aware of us as we are of it. Some of you who have had children may have picked this up about your children. I didn't pick it up until my grandchildren were born. I knew of it but I didn't really have time to look at my own children. I had time to look at my grandchildren a little closer. The child is angelic, and the child, when it is first born, and for a period of time, (provided it hasn't been born into too rude an atmosphere,) lives in a different plane, -- has a direct mind perceptibility, and as the child gets older it drops this by virtue of seduction. We seduce the child. How do parents seduce the child? You sing lullabies, you scream at it, you shout at it. You make crazy noises and motions to attract its attention. And, I've watched children through these different stages. I've mentioned this before and there have been quite a few women who have been mothers who sensed this. But I have been fortunate enough to get inside my granddaughter's head, and I could see that she was an adult mind in a dream state. Peeping out occasionally and saying what is that nightmare? What is that old character with the whiskers doing here tormenting me? Or something like that.

There is a vague reaction of irritation at first, but after awhile, the child comes out of its shell.

And then the teacher gets ahold of it. And the parent laboriously says apple, food, eat, and repeats and repeats. And the kid says to itself "Damn it, if I am going to eat I am going to have to learn those words."

So he becomes seduced into this business of living with relative language, when he had a direct mind before.

There is no alternative to this method of raising infants, unfortunately, Although I think that some primitive peoples don't care so much about whether the kid becomes a genius or not or that they show a tremendous rate of adjustment. I was out West and saw those little Navajo kids playing out in the desert and they seemed to be tremendously aware of a lot of things... right on the edge of the Grand Canyon. And the parents weren't a bit concerned about them falling off, (they were within three feet of a tremendous drop of a thousand feet.) Those children struck me as having a wisdom, a basic direct mind capacity that we have somehow lost for our children. It seems that the name of the game is, get your kid brutalized as quick as possible because that will help him withstand the brutality of life, and you know the strain that he has to go through in competition.

Question: You talked about moods and moods in a dream. You really have two moods going on, one in your present state, your conscious state, the other in the dreams. How do they relate to each other?

Rose: That's the reason when I talked that I didn't separate them too much because they carry over. In other words when you are in the waking state the man that sits in jail gets into a mood and he is awake, but he is in touch with the same type of fear mood that he would have in a nightmare, and sometimes he awakens and he doesn't know whether he is still asleep or not, because he doesn't know which side of the fence he is on. But these have the same symptoms and the same destructiveness and the same benefit whether you are awake or asleep. Yet what I maintain is that there is more conducted through the sleep. There is more conducted. The mood is subject to the influences of the setting and the physical position. When a man is walking, he is more logical, he becomes pragmatic. When he is sitting down he becomes receptive, and when he is in the yogi posture he may even have visions, he may even have great mental revelations. But it is when he is horizontal that the ordinary layman has the contact with the direct mind. That's my belief.

Question: Could you go through something like kleptomania ... as compared to a mood?

Rose: Well you see, the kleptomaniac is carried away with the conviction, the predator-conviction, which is the seductive conviction. He is in a seductive mood. And some kleptomaniacs combine sexuality or fetishism with their criminal act, -- this is a combination of different moods. His actions appear to him as being logical if not heroic... in that he sees a simultaneous conquest of two fears at once, -- the fear of jail and the fear or guilt associated with sex.

So he builds up a logic and he justifies himself. But again as I said, that mood is subject to the nostalgic mood, and when that hits him, it will wipe out some of his self-justification.

Question: The nostalgic mood will wipe out the kleptomania? Yes?

Rose: Right. I maintain that you don't have to have any ethical or moral background at all to pick this up. The aborigines of Africa don't have any libraries, but they have an extremely accurate moral code. And they have no penitentiaries. I think that we confuse ourselves a lot of time by trying to verbalize, justify and then by giving the judge a thousand or ten thousand dollars on appeal, rather than just have a way of living that is true to our constant intuitions.

Question: You said that the mood was highly dependent on the embodiment or the characters of the... Where does this... cannot there not be enough background.... ?

Rose: That is what I am getting at, for instance, why does a man who lays down to sleep dream of something that happened forty years ago when nothing seems to be the cause... Hell, the psychologists will say that something kicked it in, the past, the memory bank. See, I maintain that when the person consciously leans too far, something in the soul brings it back, and the only language that the soul can do it through is through a mood.

Question: Where is this thing installed?

Rose: Sure, it is bad for me to use something that I don't define. Let's say that if we had all of the computations that went through the computer, -- an open computer and took in all of the knowledge that could possibly be, -- and I am talking about knowledge about the blueprint of the creation, -- why the animals are, why the cat eats the mouse, why we are here and all of this sort of thing, -- this total computation and the rendition of that answer would be the voice of your soul. Now I am using the word soul because... only because of my own personal discovery.

Question: ... talking about only the knowledgeable?

Rose: Right, it is a language known to all. Of course I have -- if we get into the description of God -- I have a different description, I have a different understanding. I believe that the soul of man is God.

I don't believe it. (response to something said in audience)

That's my experience.

Question: Where did the soul of man come from?

Rose: Does it have to come from something? Or couldn't it just be? It is.

Question: If the soul of man can just be, why can't we just be?

Rose: Because we are not the soul of man. We are not the soul man. We are the shadows in the cave of Plato.

My perspective has a certain simplicity that doesn't care to argue. I know that I haven't argued or played games with myself. Very reluctantly, -- I do not use the word God because I am afraid that my definition will lead people to believe a certain thing, or a traditional concept, dictionary definition. Also about when I talk about the soul of man. Now you can't create anything, except temporarily. For instance, when a person heals somebody.... (comment from audience) Yeah I follow you, sure, absolutely, see that is what I am saying, I say that through this, through touching these moods, you touch an eternal something, this is the only door.

As I told you, I met this man from Texas that had this experience that we listened to about him in a garage. The experience that he had was altogether different from mine, but yet I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that, even though we didn't even talk, that our minds were one. I knew that his experience and mine were one. And you can do this with every human being. I don't believe that it should be forced though, if you want to have the patience you can come face to face with people.

We have a little exercise that we do in the esoteric group, to facilitate this. It is called a rapport session, in which you sit down and read the mind of the other person, or let yourself, don't force, let yourself read the mind of the other person. And the more that you do this, the more of a brotherhood that you attain, because there are no arguments, you understand. This is the whole thing.

And yet when you get on this mundane lifestyle, we are filled with prejudice, and then we have to be, this is part of the jungle, the cat has to be prejudiced about the mouse, we have to be prejudiced about the rabbit if we are going to eat him, see, we can't accept him as a brother. But the Indian did, he ate his brother, but apologized, and then ate him. We cannot control that which is part of the plan. That struck me as being very sensible, the Indian's method of saying, "I am going to kill the neighboring tribesman because there isn't enough buffalo for the both of us, so one of us has to go, so let us do it with ritual."

But I maintain that this is what I am getting, -- maybe I should have said from the beginning, -- that there is no realization of God by verbal, logical analysis, -- that the only way that you are going to realize it is through the mind itself. As Jung said, "back through the center."

In the book that I have written I talk of the camera analogy. Don't look at the pictures on the wall. Try to turn around and go back through the projector. There is where the creation came from. What you see on the wall are the shadows that were seen on the wall by Plato. In other words... everything that is in front of us... are shadows in the cave of Plato. But when you go back through yourself and find this common language then you also find that there is nobody out there but you.

You can't describe absolute factors. That is the reason why I had trouble writing, because you are talking about the totality of things which are. In other words, I have said that it is the knowledge or the experience of nothingness and everything-ness simultaneously, and that doesn't tell you too much. Now I could go on and say something else and bring you maybe a little closer, but these things were written. I wrote the book in this fashion, that basically you would realize... one of the first things that you would realize is that you don't exist, especially as you think you are.

You go take a look in the mirror and you are very happy with what you see there. "Oh look at what God piled on this earth to grace it and make other people jealous." But after a while you realize that you are a blob and that you are waiting for them to dig a hole to put it in so that it won't smell the place up, and that is you as far as your logical proof is concerned. That's you, that is all there is to you, logically, just what you see. Now, if there is something else, how do you find it, and if you find it, how do you define it? In terms of the body which doesn't exist?

Question: Is it a temporary condition or an eternal...? Rose: No it is permanent. Let's put it this way, you don't, you are not living it now. You have to eat, that's relative. The relative world is necessary or else you have to abandon it totally. So you came back on the stage.

Question: How do you... in the first part of your talk you were talking about the brightness of dreams, and the percentage of the brightness of dreams, and you didn't expand on that. What if a person had color dreams, and light and bright all of the time, what then?

Rose: Then I would say that you would have to set a whole new scale for judging the nostalgic element, which ones have it. But see, what I was trying to determine was a dream-mode. I am quite sure that everyone sitting here has had dreams... but I have heard some people say that they don't dream. Others claim that everyone dreams but forgets it rapidly. But I maintain that a majority of people have gray dreams, I mean that the majority of their dreams are somber, you know dull, no voice, no music, no perfume, so what is it that has this tremendous impact or emotion upon the person? Now as I said in the movies they have the violins, and colors, smells, touches and all of this sort of thing. They are not there in dreams but yet this mood is impelled. But the only way that it can be impelled is through memories that were nostalgic and with it comes this feeling that this is it, that this is the... mankind's voice of rectitude, this is the evenness, this is the even voice of man. And I don't mean conscience either, some people confuse it with conscience, conscience is sometimes a disease or a sickness, it is not always accurate.

Question: Then you are saying then that the nostalgia that a person dreams is dependent upon his personality? Rose: No, no, I would say that if a person didn't have it that very possibly they are minus a faculty of communication, that's all, maybe everyone doesn't have it. The only way that we can tell is probably to go through and ask.... Let's do it here. How many here have never had any nostalgic dreams? Nobody, see. How many here have had gray dreams? There are only very few hands that are not up. So now I am supposing that very possibly we have some people that Nostalgia doesn't come to in a gray dream, or doesn't come in a horizontal position. But maybe it is a purple dream, or maybe it is when the sun is shining, but nevertheless I maintain that this spirit of Nostalgia is a language. It is what I maintain the psychologists are missing, if they are wanting to talk to people, -- talk possibly about a direction to get into a person's mood for the sake of therapy.

I think that moods are classified. And as I said we are programmed by nature to have short Seduction moods like the hunter kills his prey and eats it and then he forgets about killing. A person has dreams and a Seduction mood of sex, but the whole thing culminates and then he forgets it. Even the result of sex moods will somehow be negated by this nostalgic mood. In the nostalgic mood you may regret that, for instance the little cabin back in the rose bushes was destroyed by a seduction of the lady next door, you see everybody has to leave the flover covered cottage-syndrome. So then in the nostalgic mood tie person is saying "Oh boy, if I had to do it all over again I would have my children, my wife with me and things would be, eternally."

Because why? Why? How many people have not felt that actions are eternal, in other words what happens, we go through school and when we graduate from high school Nostalgia settles on us, because we can no longer go through this competitive achievement, fraternity thing, by fraternity I don't mean fraternities. I mean fraternization, -- this camaraderie, -- the spirit that pervades, -- that we would like to see go on forever.

No. No. We know that we have to leave it. We have to go on to more experiences. The same thing occurs when a kid drops out of class. A tremendous Nostalgia, that the ship is going off without him. As though he will never catch it again. And then we go on into marriage, we go out and get a job and get married, and we are very much in love, and it is like a drink of wine. You get a unique taste of wine and you spend, -- you spend the rest of your life trying to get that same damned taste back, and that is what marriage is. The nostalgia of once more getting that rare experience. And yet there is a beauty there, there is an eternality to that beauty, you've got it -- you don't go back and try to recapture, for all eternity, the beauty that existed between any two people -- you can't have it twenty-four hours a day, but at the same time unselfish union with a beautiful friend is there forever. Even though you follow it up by bad memories, or destruction of the relationship.

Question: Do you agree with Paul Brunton when he talks about the state of dreamless sleep, when there are no dreams, when it's a deeper state when we are actually in contact with what he calls the Overself?

Rose: No, I think that Paul Brunton wrote a tremendous lot after talking with Hindu gurus. I think that you possibly go through... there is a mood that you go through that occurs shortly before you reach your realization... and that mood is of course.... I think that it is imposed upon you, by a combination of something deep in your own nature with possibly some outside help.

Outside help, -- what is that? Take a guess. Some people call it spiritual help, people from the other side or God... meaning the universal spirit of man... trying to come through the mud and clay. And then there is an internal urge and this outside help helps to bring about this realization and it occurs through a mood, the mood is one of hopelessness and death, despair. This is logic, -- logic says that you are nothing but mud, and you face that, you face it with your whole being, you know that this is it, and then you go through the death experience. You die. And so consequently I don't know that there is any... this is almost ambiguous, that there would be a dreamless sleep, how could there be a dreamless sleep, how could there be any value, any realization. As soon as there is a realization there is a dream, or a consciousness, now, if you are talking about a person getting into a place where there are no thoughts, no dreams but intense awareness... this only occurs after the death experience. Brunton may be pointing to Sahaja Samadhi, -- if that is what he means by dreamless sleep. But to be sure you would have to refer to what guru or teaching he referred to at the time, and what level they were talking about.

Question: Let's go back to Nostalgia again, since it .occupies such a large part of our life. It seems like you are almost saying that it is dangerous, in other words, stay away from the mass media, television, movies, etc. because they kind of drag you into it. Is that the implication that you are trying to give?

Rose: Well, the thing that irritates me about the media is, of course I don't mind the nostalgia-element, but I don't want them to use it selling cigarettes and other things. Lemonade has to be grandpa in the rocking chair selling it, and this I resist because it is not the universal language, it is an imitation of the universal language. It appeals and hits you there and you say, "Oh, this must be the truth about lemonade."

We think like a child. We talk about the seduction of the child at Christmas time. A child becomes seduced but they get the feeling after a while and they revolt against the idea of Santa Claus when they find out that he does not exist. But when they pick up the spirit of Christmas later on, they unconsciously fall back into the mood, and they want to perpetrate this forever. Confused, for the rest of their lives they survive by guessing. Most young people, -- until they are clear out of college, spend the better part of their time guessing what to do to be in conformity with the rest of society because the moods of society change so rapidly. So if you watch peoples' actions you will see them going through this, especially young people pretending. I watch girls practice gossiping, or they get in a group and try to cluck like the old grandmother, and they think that is what they should do. The boy pretends that he is a rooster, and he is supposed to be the protector of the weak or something. So he takes karate lessons and goes strutting around trying to impress everybody. Everybody is trying to be heroic, in their earlier days ... until they get tired of playing the game and then they don't give a damn. And then you can relax. But most young people that I find are trying to guess the language, and they are always guessing the pollyannic thing that is imposed upon them by the people that don't want their stores crashed into. They help build up Christmas spirit and all of these utility companies are saying work together. And all of these songs that are written are telling us that we should work together. But we are never going to get interested enough to work together. See, why work together... why work for somebody who is stealing you blind. But it is so sweet to think that everybody is working together, -- this comes from that nostalgic sense that maybe these thieves will get harmonious, if everybody is kind. And I am always reminded of the flower children that would come with their heads all bandaged up while bringing flowers to the police department. It just doesn't work.

Question: You mentioned that dreams that we lave during the night and the dreams that we have during the lay... that the events that happen during the day go in the dreams that we have at night?

Rose: Yes, I think that this accounts for a percentage. Remember that I said that we took one form of dream only. A lot of dreams are prophetic dreams or reactionary dreams. Prophetic dreams are neither fearful nor seductive, they just seem to be... maybe an intelligence is trying to communicate with us. Or for some reason we can see into the future. But I don't think that the daytime influences Nostalgia-dreams unless the factor is a custom, a family event or, an embedded cultural thing. And I don't think that it becomes an imbedded cultural thing unless it conforms to Nostalgia.

Question: Dreams shut off when you wake up or I got a feeling ... like whenever the sun comes up you are still there dreaming?

Rose: Well, maybe a lot of things go on inside your head but the way we gauge them is by what I call the shutter of consciousness. There is only one I, we basically can only have one thought at a time. It is like a camera shutter, we only open and close upon one thought, and now you may have some in rapid succession... so it looks like it is flipping back and forth, rapidly to the point where you might think that you are doing two things, but you only think one thing at a time, so you are watching a dream, sure, you are watching that type of experience you will continue to watch until maybe after you wake up. If you do you are going to see the vision in the room.

Question: What I was getting at was the actual under-structure, I feel like when I wake up that the pictures are....

Rose: That is what I am talking about. This is what I maintain that if you have a strong nostalgic dream or even a fearful dream, nightmare, you will lay there in bed and puzzle. I have just been kind of frozen and said to myself, -- why get up, let's analyze this while it is still fresh in my mind. Where is this coming from? This is a real world which we visited in sleep. It is like entering a dimension with LSD or something. This is as real as the day-tune. And then later you realize, after a bit of introspection, that the biggest part of what happens to you during the day is unreal. It is created, it is colored, to a point where our little reality is endangered. There is a limited number of factors that can be used on a dream, to make it impressive. There is a tremendous lot more factors that can impress us in our daytime experience. I am inclined to believe that when you meet a person in a dream, the thing that attracts you about that person is that person's Self, that is their real Self, despite their external personality. You go right to the heart of that person. Whereas the person that you meet in daytime, you have perfume, you have music, and the words are musical. The putty and lacquer and the dresses and this sort of thing, -- they add to it. But in a dream you are going directly to a person, and there has to be an intense thing there, as I said that carries over, and this is what we long to meet. This is what Nostalgia is, it is a longing for the permanence of that experience, and it has to be a profound experience because it is limited to the senses, to the number of sensory registers, that are within the mind.

Question: About the nostalgic mood that we slip into or slide into....

Rose: I think that you have them during the day, I think that there are certain things that will cause them, traumas, traumas may cause them. It depends again on the way your head works, I think that there are certain things as I said that, -- I named the different things that are conducive to Nostalgia, certain colors, certain musical instruments, words, certain pictures. Jung talks about the giant trees and boulders in his dreams. I think that that's the archetypal memory coming out, that may even be nostalgic, it seemed to have been nostalgic with him hi fact. And the mind goes on in a kind of a scramble to piece this together, when it wakes up. Why the trees? And the thought will come to the waking person, -- was this what I was two thousand years ago? So I think that nostalgia is provoked but it more or less visits people who have a poetic sense. The old theaters, some of the old plays contributed tc Nostalgia. You don't get them anymore, there is a new theme out, it is Seduction, and this isn't a good sign for civilization. But maybe it will pass. The old theme was Nostalgia. And now it is Seduction, and Acquisition, -- you can't go to one of these porno movies and be carried back in time.

Question: Would you say that someone who's experienced a realization or enlightenment or found the Truth would then be an enlightened man... would one person remember more of this total knowledge than another, isn't there a way for that person to expand consciousness?

Rose: No. First of all there is no knowledge, there is no Knowledge. The second thing is when you are everything there is nowhere to go, there is no expansion. See this is one of the misnomers of course. The theory of mind-expansion is valid up to this point, -- up to the point of final death or final realization.

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