1993-0401-Chapel-Hill-NC

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Title	1993-0401-Chapel-Hill-NC
Recorded date	April 1, 1993
Location	Chapel Hill, North Carolina
Number of tapes	2 tapes x 2 = 4 mp3
Other recorders audible?
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Source	SN and ripped video
No. of MP3 files	SN audio is in 4 mp3 files. Audio ripped from video is in 4 mp3 files.
Total time	47 + 47 + 47 + 24 = 165 minutes = 2 hours, 45 minutes.
Transcription status	Auto-AI was from audio files Nov 19, 2025. Pasted here Jan 2, 2026
Link to distribution copy	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ (need password)
Link to PDF	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
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URL at direct-mind.org	https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1993-0401-Chapel-Hill-NC
	For access to this wiki or the audio files please send an email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp	20260102155828

To Do

2nd pass

Notes

This is a lecture. Have DVD-Video. Have audio mp3 as well as audio extracted from video, as above

Also see 1993-Mr-Rose-Video-DVD-extract-Gabor

and 1993-Mr-Rose-Video-DVD-commercial-recording

Transcript

File sn1

Time: 47:02

Speaker 1

sn1-00:07

I've got, this is called a lecture of questions in regard to Zen. Zen has less dogma and more confrontation and other movements and the whole, in a zen monastery for instance, questions are continually put to the students. There's no preaching, there's no dogma being preached. It is just that you're supposed to question until you get answers from within yourself. And so I put together this lecture of questions. Now I'll finish it. When I finish it, I will not take any questions and the reason for that, we can have a discussion and then a framework of that discussion. We can maybe exchange a lot with each other, but I just came from giving a lecture at Raleigh and I had people ask me, I said, well, when I through, I said, I'll leave it open for questions. And the first thing I got was a fellow who wanted to know why people were killing each other in Germany, so I should stop it or something.

sn1-01:27

See, and I got a few those foolish questions and even a little bit irritation because I couldn't provide a solution, prevent the murder of Muhammadans in Germany. Well, I didn't know they were murdering muhammadans. So consequently, I don't want to waste our time with political or things that don't honest searching, yes, I'll answer you until I get blue in the face or he gets to be midnight. I'll still answer if you have a spiritual question, but I prefer to do it in friendship as people discussing nothing, not trying to put the like I'm supposed to be know all everything. See, so anything happens on this planet, I'm responsible, so I hope you follow these a little bit.

sn1-02:28

They're supposed to have a pattern. Maybe they don't. I don't know. Maybe some people won't be a pattern. What do you know for sure? Does a man own a house or does the house own him? Does I presume people don't think about these things and go into them until maybe they get a house and it's too late. See, does a man have power or is he overpowered? In other words, we go out like we're going to conquer things. We're going to take a hunk out of a population here and become rich or whatever we want. Is he a predator or a victim or both? Does a man enjoy or is he consumed?

sn1-03:21

Does a man really reason or is he so programmed? Can a man learn that which he really wishes to by himself alone? Can a man become, how shall he know what he should become? Now this is the spirit of the coan. These are questions. I don't give the answers. I let you see if you can find out what the answers are, what they mean. Why build anthill before knowing what an ant is? Houses. Why do we build conceptual tires of Babel about human thinking? Before we know that, which thought is how can we dare to define thought before knowing the source and cause of all thought or the essence of thought?

sn1-04:18

When we describe bouncing, do you describe the striking object or that which is struck? When anything bounces, like you throw a ball against the wall of wall hits the ball and lots of times when you cause trouble, you think you're causing trouble, but trouble bounces back on you. Is thought the process of bouncing or the object struck everything, struck reacts with an opposite equal force. Can you start thinking, can you stop thinking? Try it, try it. Try to stop thinking. When I say that, most people say, sure, I can stop thinking. Sure. Well of course you can shoot yourself. You stop thinking it is thought. Something received or something projected meaning all thoughts is thought. A sort of somatic effluvium, some byproduct of the body or the brain or something. Do we think or are we forced to think?

sn1-05:26

Is negative thinking as commonly discussed negative to man or negative to nature? This is some of the traumas of psychology. Does the brain generate thought like a radio generates a message come to speak coming from the speaker? In other words, we think the thought comes from the head, so it must be generated in there so it must be produced some way. We never bother to try to find out why or how. Is thought limited to the brain When a tree bends over, does it create wind by waving against branches? Meaning what are we doing for certain and what is done to you?

sn1-06:16

What is telepathy? Is this thing working? Can you hear it back there? What is telepathy? Does thought travel beyond the head? Does only the head think what is the vehicle for thought travel? Sometimes people pick up a thought, a relative or something. They're 10 miles away. How did they get there? Where's the vehicle? No wires. Does the body manufacture thoughts or does the body only serve as a conduit? Where in the body are thoughts received during telepathy? Where are they sent? Do chemicals such as serotonin and other neurotransmitters create thought or do they merely facilitate the penetration into our consciousness of strictly sensory data?

sn1-07:16

Where will the answer to this question lead us Multidimensional or dimensional contacts and the means telepathy and communication with the dead or some of the things you hear were people's thoughts or they think they're getting readings from not a human being or at least not a living human being and telepathy is the same thing. We have no proof. We pick up something but we can't prove that we didn't imagine it or something of that sort. How many full hours do we spend analyzing our thought processes? I think this is very important. We go to school and spend a lot of time with a kind of understanding beforehand that we don't need to analyze, thought. We don't need to observe it. Are we only a body? Of course I believe that some people believe that in what part of the body is the seed of life? Where's the soul, if you want to put it that way? We can cut off an arm or leg or cut out and replace lungs, heart, kidneys, and still live.

sn1-08:31

We can have our nervous system severed at the neck with paralysis except in the head and still live and think we can remain unconscious for years while the body continues to live. Noting that a person who is brain dead according to medical instruments can continue to live, breathe in times, recover and function consciously. Do we think or do we imagine we think is our thinking automatic? Do not. Our thoughts come before we have time to replace them. When we decide to search for the source of thought, why do we become mentally wary or find our thoughts? Becoming able to find objective or describable distractions but unable to describe name or systematize, the progression, origins or duration of thought processes. We can't put a time on 'em. In other words, what I'm saying is man, only a blob of protoplasm which is programmed to react according to a schedule or is he a free agent? Conditioned reflexes we're talking about, that's a little buzzword he used to go around. Nothing. It's a human beings, nothing but a bunch of conditioned reflexes. That was an excuse for not knowing what it really was. Who programmed? Who stimulated like a thing called temptation. We have those and we may be victims.

sn1-10:10

We don't always know where these thoughts or compulsions come from. What is thought? Can we observe our thoughts? If we observe our thoughts? Who's looking? When we observe our thoughts? Are we not thinking about thinking? Is such a thinker? Someone who dreams of yesterday thinking that he watches a dreamer or is he detached a detached watcher of past and present thoughts? Who is awake and aware of the mechanical man? It's all automatic. Perhaps I'm not saying it is, but maybe what are we an animated body and a suppressed, stagnated soul, A soul trapped in a body. Nothing's coming of it. Do we have a mind? Are we mind stuffed or are we programmed to body and mind?

sn1-11:02

Do we actually know that which we are doing? If so, why do we repeatedly regret things that we do? Does the meta zone insect, animal or man know why it reproduces? Do the trees create wind by waving their branches or is it always moved by an external force? Does a person seduce another or are both seduced? What does a man do besides fertilize? Are you a hero or a victim? Are you loved or are you consumed? Do you have possessions or are you possessed by them which is more evidential and apparent to you? Your divinity or your animal appearance?

sn1-12:02

If we wish to plan our lives, do we not need to consider while planning that it may all be planned and that we have no choice? That's called fatalism. How do we plan around that possibility? Must we not define our limitations? When we define our limitations, do we automatically need to define ourself? Do we discover more accurately the nature of ourself? How much of man's human action is faded? Predestined is the knowledge of factors of any value in the face of possible predestination. In other words, if everybody's predestined, what do we have? How can we control? Is there a will? Then immediately find it Can't be much will for predestine. What do we know? For sure? Again, do you believe more than you really know? I think we believe a whole lot. We'd like to know more, but we kind of force ourselves to believe.

sn1-13:00

Get along with the public is all of our reality merely, merely a collective belief, a paradigm. We get this from Chilton Pierce. I dunno if you've heard of him in science, a mental feat is science a mental feat created by mankind or is only a human discovery of a mental set? It's very important to know this progressive science or is scientific reality only a progression of events planned and expedited by a mentality of cosmic or spiritual proportions which utilize the mentality, egos and energy of humans. What is life? What is death? Three flat readings on an EKG.

sn1-13:54

Are these items ever properly defined except in terms of each other? Can theological facts be established by voting? Is Mary the mother of God or is humanity the mother of God or neither is God determined by victorious armies? That's what's happening around over the world today. Like I said, this one fellow wanted me to take care of the fighting that what's going on in Berlin. Lynn, the Raleigh talk is virtue established by psychological edict, by ecclesiastical vote, or by the requisites of our ultimate essence. What is sin? An offense against yourself, an offense against your fellow man. An offense against God is an offense against God recognized by divine outcry, earthquake or cosmic catastrophe. Does it really mean that much to God? If you sin, see, is it a sin? Eat meat. Are the animals our brothers, are they possessed of intelligence and soul? Do animals sin when they eat each other or are such sinning animals? Pardon? For keeping ecology in balance. Is it wrong to kill except for food? If so, do we do wrong by not eating the people we kill?

sn1-15:31

I was inspired by a guy by the name of Dahmer on that one who is knowledgeable about good. The item goodness is good that which we desire or that which is in itself good. What is the condition of being good in itself? Is evil the child of good or is it a twin? If a man drives a horse or a plate glass window, should the man be prosecuted or the horse? If a man steals defeat his children, should we prosecute the man or that which drove him? The children? If a man rapes a girl, should we prosecute A the man, B, the girl that attempted him C, his ancestors for his genetic inheritance or glandular inclination and D, the forces that desire mankind. What is equality? Was Samson equal to? Delilah is a baby equal to a dying man and said, I had a little conversation with you several years back about killing babies and there was a fellow in the audience, I dunno what his trade was, but he didn't like the idea of not having abortion.

sn1-17:01

I was supposed to be open to the public and I am not above abortion, but I said that my opinion was it's better that an old man die than kill a baby. The old man's lived his life. Of course if you kill the old man, they can maybe execute you. If you kill a baby, they're not going to execute you. It depends on where the baby is when you kill him. See? And so he stormed out, he said, I've heard all I want to hear he this. My conviction is if a man gets cancer and he's dying, his life isn't as important as the baby. In other words, you have to take care of one or the other. You take care of the baby. Are you only half of a plan by virtue of possessing both sexes? Is peace of mind more important than global peace or herd peace? Who or what are you? Are you only a body or do people believe that incidentally, are you rather a complex organism, a cell colony, a nature oriented bundle of condition reflexes that was a buzzword for years or condition reflexes? Is the brain a monitoring station designed for the organisms in definite survival or is our body program for death with a death gene following procreation like the corn and the wheat?

sn1-18:33

Is all religion and philosophy merely rationalizing rationally emanating from that computer to answer constant cellular awareness of death? Or is the universal belief in life after death and intuitive reading from that computer, a reading not completely translated into computer symbols which are limited. In other words, we get by observing our environment, we get the evidence that the bodies all end up in death. Is there a soul? But we like to know that did it exist before the body or must it be developed, grown or evolved? Where did where'd he come from? Prove the following. Here are some of the buzzwords or letters mind as other than somatic awareness, subconscious mind, ego, i, superego, chakra, kundalini, astro ether, causal desire, body, ro, halo, ectoplasm, spiritual air conscience, spiritual nectar. I hear these things from a lot of the people that start a new movement. They have, they got new definitions for the soul of man, what is time? Does time pass or is it only you who passes?

sn1-20:09

Is space time a stable matrix? While we are only transient visitors, how much of life is a mirage? Do we see this world infallibly or obliquely? Are the senses infallible? Can you see or hear or feel or smell or taste? Time is time only a relative conceptualization. What is the reality of time? Does the ant or amoeba interpret duration the same as a man does its time passed or does its time pass more swiftly? In other words, we wonder if the insect has and the calendar to which he can check the time when he wants to know what day it is or how old he is or that sort of thing. So it seems to us that there's a difference. The duration of time for insects may be just as long to them as our life spread is to us in duration.

sn1-21:17

Is time only a relative conceptualization? What is the reality? What is duration? What does the lifetime feel like? Does it feel differently to a child than to an old person? And you find that out to a child sometimes time never seems to move, they just wait and wait and worry why it's not getting later or something of that sort. But when you get older, time moves with a rapidly or seemingly that's not necessarily a phenomenon. It might be strictly something in the mind or brain that causes that. Do we remember a duration or measure? If we have no clock at hand, do we remember how long a pain lasted when the pain occurred years ago?

sn1-22:09

Would women become pregnant as often if they remembered the duration intensity of the pain of childbirth? And if you talked to women, I've talked to quite a few women that they had pain in childbirth, but it passed away and it was ignored. It didn't seem to mean anything once the affair was completed. Do we have a real sense of time when we hear a clock ticking? Do we then know what a second is or what stretch of consciousness exists for others in that second? Do the wings of the hummingbird move rapidly or slow to the gauging of the hummingbird? Does he think they're moving fast? It looks like us to us he is, but they don't seem to worry him out to the time sense of the fruit fly. Is his life long or short as the sense or of duration or passing time proportional to the mass of the entity that experiences does time exist other than the fascination which seems to be brief or longer duration is if the sun is our ultimate clock of earth rotation as measurement. What is our measurement of time after the death of our senses is time and illusion that prevents us from experiencing a self that has no motion.

sn1-23:35

Have you ever heard a clock ticking in a delirium? If the mind can be distorted in a delirium or in an LSD trip, does the mind ever understand the true feeling of a second? What is nostalgia? Is it the soul's view of a previous feeling? What is space? Is space interdependent with time? Are they not measured by each other? We have the light year time is determined by spatial phenomena. It's rotation, duration. Do space and time exist at all except in reference to us? What is the understanding of insects of the distance to the sun and the moon? If you could talk to a fly, what would he tell you? If you ask him how far it was it the moon, do we have a true picture of nature? When we appreciate nature as being beautiful is such appreciation of life or death a meaning?

sn1-24:39

A lot of these things that are very beautiful are dying and even animals. Have you ever watched the war that goes on in a drop of water or in the cancerous tissues? We used to have a film we could run and watch the cancer being attacked, attacking the cell. Actually you see it on the film projected on a wall or canvas. How many proto zones are required to sustain the world's meta zones? Can they be counted? How many proto zones are eaten alive every second? How many microscopic meta zones are eaten each second by larger meta zones? Is death painless for these beings? Do they scream? How many small meta zones are need to feed one worm for a day or one insect? How many worms or insects die every minute to feed the birds? How many worms or insects are needed to feed a pair of birds in their fledglings each day?

sn1-25:40

How many worms or insects are needed for one henze in the summer? We hear the hum of many insects. Is this the hum beautiful or castl or a bed Land of insects screaming Are the songs of birds more than just mating noises are not trees more active and autumn when they're dying, which is the true destiny of all beings, A growth individual eminence or a means of energy. Food for higher beings, meaning predators and zen. They have a thing called a coan, and I know about this time you're getting wary of the coan, but I think you'll absorb some of them. Should self definition have priority over concerns for health? One of the things I've always resented is in school, in college I've taken courses in psychology and none of them ever defined the self. They told what our body did and that was behavior. You didn't know what the self did, but you took data on the body's movements is the idea of personal immortality before such an idea has been proven by experiencing immortality any more than a egotistical idea, and I think this is a thought that comes to us when a person is getting close to death, he realizes he doesn't know anything. What are the mechanics of divine healing? Should the search for God have precedence over using an unidentified divinity as a healing utility?

sn1-27:28

Is God a gigantic just out? Why are we here? Are we accidents of evolution? Animals that accidentally evolved upon a planet that accidentally evolved and the chances of accidental evolution seem unlikely in view of the complexities of protoplasm such as the ability of the cell to produce milli voltage components and to possess memory? Can we say all this came about by an immediate or instantaneous teleological prompting which had to take thousands of years to develop over the million years needed to evolve less specialized cells similar to plant cells. In other words, it's very difficult looking back to the source of our mechanism, our body and stuff. How did new road transmitters evolved?

sn1-28:21

Were we created by skillful biochemists? What is the process that would result in the evolution of synaptic voltage? Is life a dream? I hope you know what the synapse is because this seems to be a key thing in the thinking processes. Is life a dream or an illusion? And there's two schools of thought in that. If so, is it not a very detailed, detailed, inconsistent dream? Showing few variations seeming to strictly adhere to a blueprint is man manufacturing the blueprint by setting up a rough paradigm and creating details such as brain chemistry as he goes along. If so has banned lost control of his creation. If he cannot find an alternate for disease and death, what are the odds for an accidental synthesis of two ketone enzymes? Now this is one of the theories about how life forms first formed that there was the planet was supposed to have been, had nothing on it. It was created by either action or the will of God or something of that sort. So where did life start? It started where the water met the land supposedly, and these were not even living beings. They were enzymes accidentally formed enzymes. That's one of the theories. I am not trying to sell it to you, it's to say that's one of the theories of how all life started was the accidental coming together of ketone enzymes.

sn1-30:03

The enzyme is co plus two hydrocarbon radicals. It has been suggested that life began by the synthesis of the two ketone enzymes probably in water. What is the significance of common denominators? Are they valid for evaluating religions and behaviors? Is there a body manufactured source as an od ll Elon vial or quantum energy capable of powerful and magical power, transferable and projectable? I was talking outside here about strange things that happened and talking about a girl that as I watched her head came apart and what energy was used to do that? This was literal, I don't know. I know if I had a camera and photographed it, the head would've been together, but she was proud to call herself a witch, but she could cause that illusion. Certainly she didn't want to be looked at too closely.

sn1-31:19

There are two windows states of mind which are not consistent with each other. They're the daytime view and the night view. In other words, we don't think the same in nighttime as we do in the daytime. Very possibly the nighttime view is more emotional. The latter with its dreams and horizontal speculation upon awakening from a strange field of thought threatens the convictions of the daytime. And I think we know this that we put in a bad night and that's all we can do is wait. Hoping day comes in a hurry because we've had a nightmare or something happened that we didn't like to think about. What bearing do these often morbid night states of mind have on violent acts? Is there any value in speculating on the genesis of biologic or human life weighing the value and importance of slow evolvement against a possible perfect instantaneous creation and weighing the suffering and dying against perfect or unchanging immortality?

sn1-32:27

These are in every spiritual search or belief that this is what you have. You have a desired belief or eternal immortality, but our bodies tell us that they're not immortal and so then we have to stop and think. Is our consciousness immortal? Is our mind immortal, our ecologist possibly trying to thwart the ordained directions of the engineer who designed the evolution of life, sanity and syphilis? Are they both decided by approval via democratic voting? They want to vote on everything today. See, we're going to change our language essentially certain people vote and say, this is the way you got to talk. If man did not cause himself, then that which caused him is invisible, meaning not apparent to this dimension. What reason would a superior engineer have for creating life as seen on earth, meaning all floor and fauna?

sn1-33:34

In other words, if we conceive something created this, then the next question is why? Why all this many million different types of pictures? How rational are some of the reasons given for the acceptance of the creator except the creator concept and set of morals presumed to gain tolerance in the creator? In other words, we get so fearful that we are the result of a creator that we dream up ways of flattering the creator, get in good with him. This seems to be the political way to get information. Why is talk necessary? And when I talk, I mean different perspectives.

sn1-34:29

What causes different perspectives? What liabilities are incurred with unavoidable states of mind? And again, we've had that all through psychology. What is the state of mind that's not defined? Are perspectives rooted in valid basis and definitions or in undefinable feelings which may be as valid or meaningful as definitions? Does a given color cause the same reaction to all people? Do we react to their environment the same? Why do some perfumes enc chant one person and cause nausea in another? What is beauty? How do perspectives which are hindered by feelings affect science? Do they help or hinder? Can a scientist totally rule up feelings out of judgment? Did the scientists of Columbus time field the earth was flat or did they know that earth was flat? What is wisdom?

sn1-35:30

Is it foolishness or wasted effort? Unless it is restricted to objective or materialistic values in others, we can't have anything that is verbalized. If it doesn't show material value and there may well be, there may well be. That stuff does exist. It doesn't have a material. Value is all wisdom. Unbiased is a wise man, just one who gets along with his fellow man is wisdom just adaptation symbiosis or a blending with others to a point of losing personal identity? Is silence a trademark of wisdom even if silence is caused by cowardice? Who or what is the authority in regard to human essence or nature? Does a person love or is he or she incapable of loving? Does not a person desire to be loved while pretending to love others? Does it tick love to the host or the blood of the host? Is love of every kind, programmed and projected into us?

sn1-36:37

Is there only one dimension in this thing of this being programmed into us? If you want to study psychology, I say the first thing to do is spend some time on a farm and you'll find out the animals. They give you a lot of information. See, but we hide it, we hide it. The animals are manifest. Does not the possibility of multiple dimensions weaken our significance and our pretended potential for crow controlling our environment? This is a big battle. Crack goes out. Where's that? Suppose we're going to get together and control the environment. What is God? What are his dimensions? What is the soul? Are these just aberrated ideas? Why do people use words like God or soul without going to some effort to define them? This is the whole thing of a spiritual process. I'm not ridiculing religion. I'm saying we don't go to the bother. We use the words. We never go to the bother and work it out and say, what is God? Let's find him. What is a soul? Let's look and see if we really got one. What is an idea? Is there a thinking self or only an awareness that witness's reactions and may possibly witness a pseudo self or ego? Can a man have spiritual or essence clarity and be psychologically confused?

sn1-38:01

Are we an individual or a conglomerate of several selves? These are psychological alternatives, alternative opinions. Is there such a conglomerate? If there is such a conglomerate, how is the real self isolated? I mean not just now isolated the real self by taking the position of external questioner, this is what goes on. We're questioning these components, the soul, the mindedness, and immediately we are taking the position of an external questionnaire and that's more scientific is thought a possession or an obsession? What is the relationship between thoughts and glands? And this is a good one to spend a lot of time on. What is sanity or insanity is sanity. Only somatic, healthiness. Healthiness are unpopular people insane. You see a guy acting funny and you say, oh, he's crazy. He's outside the normal curve. You got to keep away from him. Could sanity ever mean that state of mind with perfect understanding of all problems, a state of mind from which the altering lens of ego has been removed from mental vision or perception?

sn1-39:19

Would such a version of sanity imply the need of perfected logic or perfected intuition? In other words, in analyzing yourself, can you do it with logic? Pretty soon I think you find it. You can't do too much with their logic, so you have to be, something has to come in from outside. And that's the intuition. We don't know where a hunch comes from. We get the hunch. And if we have a high percentage of successes with ches, then we've got more perfected intuition because that's what the hunch is. It's an intuition. How does one arrive at it?

sn1-39:57

These things are very valuable. If you're looking for esoteric values like the end product of zen. Zen is a study of the mind. And you don't do it by logic. You can't weigh the mind. You can't take it out of the head. It's not in the head. It's not even in the protoplasm. It's somewhere in the consciousness. But the whole thing in the work of zen is to keep trying to focus in on sensible, sensible answers to the problems. These problems we don't know much about ourself. We don't know why we're here and we don't know the definition of thought even or the origin of thought, which part of the bodies it come from and that sort of thing. And again, this thing is what is intuition? And then on spiritual searches, you have to depend on your intuition. Logic doesn't do much on you.

sn1-41:08

Is thought a synaptic reaction to an electrical stimulus? If we cannot woefully think, do we ever make decisions or is it possible that only people who realize that they cannot enforce decisions are the ones that eventually may find ways and means to make things happen? If we think about thought is thought, then objective and separate from the thinking self is thought, an entity or a emanation of sorts. These things might sound foolish to you, but you've heard accounts of people, a man sitting a thousand miles from another person and convey a thought and they write a letter to each other. Maybe it's maybe a shock, but the letter doesn't get there in time. Somebody in the family dies and his relative picks up his knowledge of that a thousand miles away. And these are the things we don't explain by in the psychology books, but there's something there that the mind seems to have an elasticity capability that we never bothered to speak about.

sn1-42:19

Can sanity be gauged by logic? Is behavior considered normal by virtue of percentages of incidents? I'm talking about the so-called normal curve. Now is all such normal behavior always logically excusable? In other words, is sanity a way of measuring the skill of survival? Or is sanity also involved in the skill of checking factors such as motivation, correct reasons for living, quality control or morality and the control or evaluation of environmental factors? Would our behavior be the same if we discovered by logical or even common sense means that our environment was greater or less than we previously believed it to be wasn't that important. Perhaps more mind dimension.

sn1-43:17

In other words, we behave the same way. If we discovered beyond speculation that there was no life after death or that our environment included other perhaps endless dimensions. How would we react to the incontrovertible discovery if an inescapable immortality? I've even heard people say, I wouldn't want it. I wouldn't want to go on forever, like to live little longer, but no, no, this idea of having to do this forever and ever, that it's unbearable. And also we have to take into consideration that our environment includes other perhaps endless dimensions. How would we react to the incontrovertible discovery of an inescapable mortality? Is what I've read before. Are we not caught somewhere between? There's not this materialism, a bit of fence writing that says on one hand that we cannot accept only that which we see while refusing to look or see new factors not immediately accessible to our senses or new truths which would give new definitions to life and new meaning to existence.

sn1-44:31

I am talking about psychic impressions that somehow come through with data and give new meaning to our existence. The psychiatry contains opinions rather than pure scientific findings. Most of the stuff I found in psychology isn't proven. Is psychology becoming a cult? Does psychology or psychotherapy rule by edict rather than reasons? Is there any science in the moods operandi of these current mental therapies? Is it safe to allow psychologists to monitor our lives if they are only cognizant of body survival and would program us only for that? Are psychologists who work in advertising and promotion a boon to mankind? Or are they manipulators without proper respect for the victims of self or spurious interests? Can the psychiatrist produce sanity in the person if he has not adequately defined sanity? How's he going to create this thing if he defines sanity? Should he the psychiatrist, not be required to bring sanity to sanity to every patient who is in any degree insane?

sn1-45:50

That's the injury, that's the trauma. What's he doing? See, it don't seem to be any degree, any effort to work on those people. What does behaviorism has improved? What do the tracks made by an animal prove? Do they tell you about the essence or purpose of the animal? And the tracks are the equivalent of behavior. Does a normal curve define normality and morality? If the 51% of the killers will kill, will that make killing normal? That's the definition for sanity is what the most people do. Can we study the mind by ignoring brain chemistry and behavioristic testing, introspective structuralists? Is it more important to what a man is thinking or capable of doing than it is to know who it is that is thinking or doing and what is thought? The whole thing goes back. We've never analyzed the substance of thought. Are the conclusion reached by introspective thinking, corroborated by sciences.

File sn2

Time: 46:56

Speaker 1

sn2-00:01

Such as brain chemistry and the statistics of behaviorism. Is there anything in regard to this that is not intelligible to you or you'd like to ask some questions on? I would like to naturally limit the questions to the subject at hand, not to politics or anything like that. Yeah, Speaker 2

sn2-00:51

I can't hear you. What's that? Questions read. A lot of people might be read a lot of books. If you want define something, you look in a dictionary now you might find that maybe two or three places in the dictionary up. You find that whatever you found, in other words, you can't, this is our trouble. We're trying to label stuff and things are not, Speaker 1

sn2-01:32

It's not easy to nail them down. Absolutely. See things change and as they change, perhaps their definition changes. See especially abstract things or faculties in the mind that aren't flesh like thought. We have no proof of the nature of thought yet. We just take it for granted. Everybody thinks because we just think, but we don't know the chemistry of it. I don't know why it is. Speaker 3

sn2-02:08

On some of your questions, you ask them, you have a point of view. You have a point of view on these questions. Speaker 1

sn2-02:19

Those questions are not necessarily to bring education to you, but encourage you to think. It doesn't. I'm not saying that they're all corrected or they're all incorrect or that they're all scientific. I'm just saying there's a lot in nature that we accept and we don't have a good reason for accepting it. Just like I used that statement when if you drive a horse through a plate glass window, who do? Maybe you wasn't in holding the reins of the horse, so do you arrest the horse or the guy who owned the horse? See, and the same way with us, we do, we commit crimes, human race commits crimes, and lots of times it appears in the paper that the person couldn't prevent it. There's no way to prevent it. See meaning there's influences on people that get them killed, get them put in the penitentiary or get them killed. See, we have to weigh all these ul ultimatums or things in science and see if they're true to form or if they hold good for everybody. Speaker 3

sn2-03:48

When you ask a question, if you have a question in your mind, which you're not sure of, how do you know whether you have the answer that comes to your mind is correct or Speaker 1

sn2-03:57

Not? I don't think you do. I don't think you do. Right? You can ask. We're inventing a lot of words and this is what happens. Somebody writes a book. You got to have textbooks for people to pretend to study at least see, and that isn't necessarily a book of truths. It may be incorrect. And if you follow the history of psychology back, you'll find out that the rules or so-called discoveries of psychology to turn into the century were all together differently and differently defined. See? Do you understand what I mean? For instance, I've had old books on psychology that were printed before the time of the century, and of course they were medical doctors too, as well as there was no such thing as a psychologist. There was just a doctor that was interested in the thinking processes and they would give you advice on behavior and well, for instance, one of them was the old timers always advised the young people to control their sexual energy. Now this is supposed to be hilarious nonsense. You're not supposed to reserve your sexual energy. You're supposed to do what comes naturally or whatever you want to do.

sn2-05:32

At least Crowley says, do what? That will be the whole of the law. See, so these terms in psychology have different meanings at different times, and they're not by any means guaranteed to be perfect. The definitions aren't perfect. Psychology is still in early stages of exploration. Yeah. Talk about KY and Speaker 4

sn2-06:06

What he had to say. I just curious, I've read some of the stuff you're saying when you were warning about certain concept structures. Speaker 1

sn2-06:15

I can't hear you. It gets complicated now. Writings about not really getting Speaker 4

sn2-06:19

Trapped into concept structures or ways of thinking that are just kind of concepts. Not really solid. But then you've seen the talk about KY and his writings is something that's pretty valid system and yet the way he kind of breaks apart the cell to emotion, Speaker 1

sn2-06:38

You're talking about us. Yeah. Do you think that his system is pretty valid or do you think that's the same kind of concept structure that number one, he was not a psychologist. I think he was a theorist of some sorts, had theories about matter, but I don't think, I think it is good to read the man because he was a brain. He wrote some books on reality, things that he thought were real and searched for the reality and some search for magical things too. Things that were happening without any explanation. And he worked with a guy by the name of EF for a long time and IV had his own system in which incidentally, I consider EF the greatest psych that ever hit the Western hemisphere. Well, that's kind of what Speaker 4

sn2-07:48

I was talking about. His system specifically the way that Finky talks about him inviting himself into the emotional and intellectual and instinctual and moving centers. Speaker 1

sn2-08:00

I don't know where those centers are. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. I don't think he ever pointed it out where they were, but it is just breaking up. I think my feeling was that he had to come up with something that looked like it would be accepted as a sensible explanation, and it wasn't sensible. He didn't look deeply enough. He had a general, he wrote a lot of stuff. I thought that was good and it helped people in their thinking process, but you couldn't cover all that stuff. Ger just did the same thing. He had, what'd he call 'em? Hydrogens and stuff. I never could define what these hydrogens were, but I do know that some of the things he said showed that he had a tremendous insight and a tremendous intuition. The human being and seemingly was capable of even healing people if we could accept the literature. I was never met the man, but I still knew that for some of the things he said, that's gi, if not Pensky, but he had a great mind. He had a great mind. Yeah. Speaker 5

sn2-09:20

You said a minute ago, it's really hard to nail down meanings and things and how it's really hard to get a really concrete definition of some things. Do you believe there's any really good way of transmitting ideas through language, Speaker 1

sn2-09:38

Transmitting them where

sn2-09:40

Ideas or concepts through language. Language, which is pretty much based on universal definition, universal what? Language, languages which are based on universally accepted definition. Sometimes they're universally created but later changed. For instance, you take the history of oxygen, little thing like oxygen, they had an altogether different concept of oxygen. They didn't realize that it was something that attacked that it would attack and cause iron to rust. See, they thought it was almost like a being that eroded the iron. And that went on for quite a few years before someone got a better picture of it. I think it could have been laie or one of his, the guys that lived at his time, a lot of even the material sciences were mislabeled and they were declarations made about what they were and then they had to be changed when we found the difference. So that was, you might say, the path of oxygen. We didn't really know what oxygen was. In other words, I don't think at that time, time of laise air and those people that they had a table of, what do you call it?

sn2-11:30

A big table of periodic? Yeah, the different elements. Elemental table. For instance, when I studied chemistry to be a chemist, there was only 90 some elements, and here we popped up with the 220, since the total now is maybe over 220. So how did they do that? They didn't have all matter. Some of the stuff that they created, I mean it was combinations set up a new element. See? So it's pretty hard to, it is pretty hard to define almost everything. Everything's moving. Theological discoveries are moving too. We thought that they had absolute knowledge. Everybody had the people in the know the teachers absolutely the best of the field at that time. They didn't. They got surprises. Speaker 3

sn2-12:42

That approach. How's it different Speaker 1

sn2-12:44

From any other approach to strange about these acoustics? I can't hear very Speaker 3

sn2-12:50

Zen approach to self knowledge. How is that approach different from knowing yourself to any other source? Why zen? Speaker 1

sn2-12:57

Well, you almost have to get some of their literature to get a system. There is a system, but the process of zen is incessant, attacked upon our mental beliefs, our definitions, and it seems somebody back there discovered if enough pressure is put on a person to make them think, they will even be able to come up with revelations about non matter, meaning the human soul, life after death and that sort of thing. Zen is the supposed to have been a very high type of analysis of the human soul and the invisible parts of life and the universe too. But I ain't saying that the universe meant that much, but we've always down through the ages and we're still doing it. Our religion is not one of proof. Our religion is one of belief and it goes on still new ones are popping up all the time. Somebody gets out on a podium and says, I found the real true translation of the Bible, so we're all going to believe this. And hundreds of people follow him and he may be right and he may not be, but they're taking some shots at it out there in Waco, Texas because he had a new definition of religion. See? So in Asia it was the same thing.

sn2-14:35

They had, instead of writing a lot of words down and comparing opinions, they went directly to the soul of man. That was their effort to go directly to the soul of man and try to contemplate to see number one, if he had a soul, number one, if he could find some harmony with that thought or would that bring him knowledge about all unknowns things. In other words, there's for instance, I always marvel when I read about the people in Asia that had measurement of time in Yugas, which we say a couple of thousand years or perhaps a million years, but they had that all worked out. They had no instruments, they had no, what should we call it? Surveying instruments to tell distance or time or anything else. But by focusing in with the mind and not relenting, just keeping it up.

sn2-15:41

Stuff starts to happen, not while you're thinking, but maybe when you stop thinking something the light goes on and says, oh, it might be this. And yet by removing the manifestly ridiculous, we gradually go to truer things and then somewhere along the lines we get proof or conviction that we're, right. Now I'm talking about all religious movement. For instance, a person that believes in a soul, he has no proof, but down the road something happens to him. He can't argue it. He can't argue it, but he lives it and he changes. He gets powers. Now. The powers are the only proof that he has. When I'm talking about powers in literature read, they go so far as to raise the dead. They cure them of illnesses. You read people's minds, you walk up to a mind and tell 'em what he's thinking. These are caused by just relentless putting your attention on that and you're getting away from everything that keeps you from thinking about it.

sn2-17:04

If it's food or sex or anything, quit it. We're going to solve the problem first. And they go into those monasteries and they starve themselves. They go without sex or reproduction until they get some answer. And that was the whole method. And the Indians in this country had something very similar to that. They sent their young men out when they got to be a certain age to come back with what it was like a religious answer of nature. And they were supposed to stay out until they got it. It seems like when you get the mind or challenge it and say, think or die, and it gets that important, sometimes some good material comes through and then other people have the same experience and they corroborate and say, yes, this is true. And we get new definitions for the soul and new definitions for what happens after death. Speaker 4

sn2-18:13

Tradition talked about enlight. Would an enlightened man know the answers to all these questions, Speaker 1

sn2-18:22

Questions, but are there answers for, well, I presume that the guy gives a code and has concocted an answer that he wants. I don't say they, but the thing is that we don't, in the western world, we go about things slightly different and that is presuming that we're going to be educated by a thing called God. See now I'm not saying that he shouldn't do that, but he's limited then to his inspection area and he's is going to have to struggle to find a person, a being. See now on the other side of the thing, we only take what is, for instance, a person is ill, he's sick and a healer comes along. He don't know. He is a healer. He would just like to be a healer. He feels sorry for sick people or dying people. He puts his hand on the man, he cures him.

sn2-19:28

I know of many cases like this, many cases where you take a chance, you say, well, the guy's sick, he's getting worse, what harms are going to be? But he rouses some element in himself. We have inside of ourself an ability to cause and it's almost like you have to put yourself under a tremendous discipline of focusing only on that. We criticize a lot of the monks and the monasteries for not having sex or humiliating themselves and that sort of thing. But he's got to do something to keep everything off his mind except one drive, one aim. And sometimes when he hits that one aim, when he gets an answer to it, he gets multiple answers. He gets a system, a system starts, a forum, and he validates it. But the unfortunate part about religion, most of the religion we experience is it's blind belief. And then the next step is it becomes a business then it's a racket. And you get nothing from religion that way, but you become one with it. If your mind can become one with it, you can perform miracles. Yeah. Speaker 3

sn2-20:55

Would that notion of a God answering your prayers if you can solve the problem within your own mind? Speaker 1

sn2-21:02

Well, I don't think that we strain almost that there's, I can't say what it is. See, I don't like to say, I don't really say there's not a God. See what I mean? Number one, I don't see any evidence. I say this is a big universe. I don't necessarily say that somebody built that. That'd be tremendous job, but it happened. It's here. Okay, we are here. Okay, so there's no code. Book comes to the person and says, well, if he gets cancer, the brain, here's what you do. Or he gets this illness, but somebody else just has a tremendous wish.

sn2-21:40

I often said a woman as a baby, what is it? The monkeys. Monkeys will have little ones and will give them baby dolls and to play with and intelligence changes. Instead of being brooding and not wanting to be bothered, they brighten up. Well, the same thing that the woman conveys after the child's born. Now from her body, and I don't mean the milk either, but she can heal that child through her skin with intense emotions. See? And the child can, as a result of it, and so grows up to be more of an agreeable child because has a bond with its mother, it it's found the magic. It knows where the magic is.

sn2-22:42

So what we have, we have the possibility of discovery through psychic methods. We were doing some of this just a night or two ago. We were working on hypnosis. Using hypnosis. Put a person in a certain frame of mind and you can change their whole lifestyle. It's almost like healing. And you give them a suggestion and with it goes, if you're just a huckster making money off of hypnotizing people, it doesn't work as much as if you care care for the person. Then it seems that it's just like the baby. The mother cares for the baby. The baby retains its health or it gets healthier. Let's put it that way. But we can by using the mind in determined contemplation, determined contemplation, things can be done. Things happen. And now as far as zen itself, the process, the aim of it is only to find the truth about life.

sn2-24:12

It's not necessarily to heal, but some of them have the power anyhow. Some of them may have the power anyhow. And I know I'm not interested in proving existence of the world as much as I am to find a method of maybe curing somebody and things that I saw experience convinced me about things in the Bible. I never cared much for the Bible. It was translated too many times. So I thought, oh, why put too much faith in it. But then after these happen, I'm talking about a ways and means I'd like to be able to get across.

sn2-24:59

It happens almost magically. So that one day I was reading an account in the Bible and some woman was ill, said she had a suffering from a bleeding. I think she was bleeding an issue of blood was the word that used in the Bible. And she was shy or something, and she corrupted up by rai and touched his garment and she was instantaneously healed. This to a practical person. Sounds silly, maybe touching his body maybe, but why the garment? Why would that have a change? But I'm convinced that that happens with some healers. I mean they're small. What I've experienced small potatoes. But I used to take headaches away from people just on a hunch. I said, I wonder if I can do it. I put my hand on their head and take it away and see, this is what I'm talking about. Well, if I could take a headache out somebody's head, maybe I could. I'd have to take a hat off maybe. Maybe I wouldn't have to take a hat. Maybe I could touch the hat and take the headache away. So I see that analogy with these statements in the Bible. And there may be a system, those words might be teaching us the system of doing things and helping people that have that see little power or faith, huh? Little power or faith.

sn2-26:41

I don't know. I wouldn't call it face because all the stuff that happened with me happened before I even thought it would happen. See, you just wait and see. And I don't think it's willpower. I don't think I could force or anybody could force good wellness in a sick person. Love, yes, sympathy for relative sometimes does a tremendous lot. See, but not just bullying in and saying, Hey, I'm going to get my reputation, keep my reputation up and heal these people that are ill. I think too that you should hesitate. Hesitate before you do it. And then in doing it, say, what have we got to lose? What have we got to lose? Let's go through the passes or the touching, whatever it is. Nothing happens. Okay? Something happens. Wow, that's wonderful. And that takes the ego ego out. Don't rejoice that you did something, rejoice that it happened and then it'll happen more frequently. And that's what I've discovered in my life. Yes. Is there any difference between magic and science? Chaos in order magic and what? Magic and science and chaos In order. Chaos In order, what do you mean? Speaker 5

sn2-28:17

In other words, is it just magic? Until we understand scientifically how it works and then it signs, and then it's only chaos. As long as you don't Speaker 2

sn2-28:26

Understand it, then it's order. After the science is established, you mean after? Well, there's Speaker 1

sn2-28:35

Never any order comes from this thing I'm talking about. It can't be applied. I mean, there's no way that a formula can be laid out and you say, follow this and this will happen. You'll cure people. See what I mean? Now science, what it does, people fool around and first of all, they try the chemical on dogs, cats and that sort of thing. Then they try it on people. And if it works, okay, then that's scientifically accepted and it is there. But what we're talking about is things that you don't use medicine and isn't restricted to health. It isn't restricted to that. Other things can be caused, other things can be caused to happen.

sn2-29:24

And once you learn this, then you can be a real bad jam. And all you have to do is not try willfully to do it. We don't do this willfully. It doesn't work, but willfully, let's see if it happens. See, and we can't draw up a chemistry handbook, something similar to that of this type of healing. See, because it's not, science has, it's limited and it's limited possibly because it only will operate a certain way. See, in other words, you take the cookbook out in chemistry and it tells you exactly how many drops, something to create a certain chemical to perform a certain thing. See, but what I'm talking about is the causing of things to happen. And it may sound to you the way I'm stating it, you may sound this is nonsense, but this is the people who do get healed. That's what happens. They don't know. There's nothing tangible that they can see. All they have the will is to help somebody and get a hunch, follow the hunch, put your hand on their head or you know, said a Speaker 5

sn2-30:52

Couple times. You have to bear is really intense goodwill towards somebody, or the magic actually comes and it's not something that's simply materialistic. It's nothing. I'm just going to do this so I can make money. You have a bear that's really good. Somebody conceivable that the magic, magic possible come through an intense bad will for somebody. An intense what? Is it conceivable that you can bear the same intensity of will for somebody, but in a negative way if you really wish bad on somebody, but not through your own material game Speaker 1

sn2-31:33

That possible. I think that's possible. I'll tell you if you want to get into this, get some information on the Unas. There's books on it by Max Freedom Long. He spent a lot of time over there studying, and this is what they did. They healed people, they killed people. Also, it didn't seem like there was any repercussion. For instance, they used their power to get even. And they go to a guy that could do these, I forget what they called 'em, and like a priest, but he wasn't a priest. He was a magic. We had some sort of magic and they could mentally kill the other, the other priest, other leader. They had ways of doing it. It was all mental. So when you hear about that, you think that sounds like nonsense. But I read it and I believe that they had something. See what we did, we moved over there and we sent missionaries over, and the missionaries didn't like this idea of using their power to kill people. They didn't kill 'em with a gun. They just said, in so many days you'll be dead. And it wasn't a nice thing to do, but it shows it can be done. And it isn't necessarily a spiritual thing. The human mind, you get surprised with the power. Speaker 5

sn2-33:09

So you would say that depends on the intensity of whether comes Speaker 1

sn2-33:14

More alignment of it. Yeah, I don't know what all the faculties were because it never completely read the formula, but I saw that there was enough of it to confirm, and everybody in those islands believed that. I was just reading a piece about it here the other day. The way somebody stole something, they'd get a whole bunch of 'em and line them up and say, well, the man that really stole it when he drinks this milk or whatever they give to him will kill him. And it kills him. It kills the right guy. But because he's frightened, because he's killed other people. And now this is a strange form of magic. I picked this book up. A guy went all over Africa and interviewed every shaman and witch doctor he could find. And they find these, they have a common way of doing things. They're all similar.

sn2-34:12

See? And we think they're inferior in mental capabilities, but they have it. They have it. But it is limited. It is limited to that tribe or that group of people. They're all a little bit different. But anyhow, this is my idea is that it don't have to be that way. We don't have to do these things. It is like saying as soon as you get, you create a gun to protect yourself. So next thing you know, shoot people with it. See a lot of the things that come out as for good have taken and been used for revenge or destruction. Yeah. I Speaker 4

sn2-34:59

Just had a question about your experience that you had when you became, sorry, could you hear what I had a question about? Your experience? Yeah. What was the question? How much of that, did you have any control of what was happening to you at all? Or was it all just it happened to Speaker 1

sn2-35:16

You? I didn't have any control. I had a surprise. I had a surprise. In fact, I got a pain in the head. I thought I was dying. It was right in the middle of my head. I was in bed and I thought, boy, I was in Seattle, Washington and my homes in West Virginia, so I'm done. And they're not going to get the body home. They don't have my address back, a place I stay. And so I didn't know I was going unconscious, but I found myself standing, looking out the window. And I went out the window and I arrived at a place, I'll be honest with you, I didn't see any God. In fact, I saw some people, I didn't know them. I saw some people and I was tremendously happy, tremendously exhilarated. And then I got to questioning, what is this? See, maybe it was time to go. But anyhow, I fell. I fell great distance. And when I got conscious, I was back in bed. I'd never got out of bed. See? But I remember walking over to the window, looking through the glass and seeing the cascade mountains and saying, that's where I'm headed. And I went right through the window. I didn't break it either instantly. And were Speaker 4

sn2-36:48

You still thinking the same way, just your thought process while this experience was happening, was it the same kind of mode thinking you have every day or was it something different? We should repeat that again. Just when you're having this experience, the way your mode of thinking or just your frame of mind, was it much mean? Obviously it would be strange to have the experience just the way you were thinking. Did it seem like it was different at all? Just your everyday thought process? You mean Speaker 1

sn2-37:19

Was my thinking at that time, effort, right. During the experience I was, it was just happy. That's the only experience I had. It was happy. I remember flying from this hotel in Seattle to the Cascades when I got there was in the snow. But I was convinced I could go and I went and I just was exhilarated. I knew what had happened. I knew that I had left the earth. That was all. And I had a tremendous curiosity to see some of the people on earth. There was nobody up there but me. And then I saw them, they came up over the hill. Hor of them came up. But why? It seemed like I was rejected because I fell through a black space, tremendous black space. And I thought it was oblivion. I thought this is the end, this is the end of the whole story. And when I become conscious, I was in bed. I had never got out of bed. The only thing was the pain in the head was gone, never returned. It seemed like it was strong enough to have caused a stroke.

sn2-38:39

The incident, there's accounts of those things. You can't get real common denominators. They're not quite the same. But I was conscious in both going and when I got back, I was in trauma. I didn't want to live. I had no desire to live and actually didn't want to. I didn't have any choice of it, couldn't just kill myself. But this is what gave me direction, permanent determination. Let's get back there. Let's find out if we can really get back there. And of course, I feel that you don't succeed if you're trying to, you can't do it. Write in a book. I've never put this in a book. I may have mentioned it, but I've never write it in a book because I don't think that's, it would be the same for another person. I've read accounts, they all seem to be somewhat different. Their action. Yeah. Speaker 4

sn2-39:48

Are there any similarities in this experience to near death experiences if you've read about those? Speaker 1

sn2-39:55

Yes. Yes. Yeah. I used to listen to them. Somebody had a thing on TV and they had people that I remember. One was a boy that fell out of an airplane at a height, fell on his face, destroyed the front of his face. He was sitting there telling about it, but he lived through it. See? And they'd have a conception of some sort. So I think we're a dual being, I can't, that's the important thing. If we were a monistic being all we are as a body, see. But if there is something that can leave. And of course for years I was pretty, I didn't go out there. I didn't go out there to do that. I went out there to get married. Yeah, I went out and I took a job as a waiter. The girl was working in Boeing aircraft. Her people were millionaires, and I was a bit of a hungry person. I saw nothing wrong with marrying a million dollars, but I found out later she was also a lesbian. You're not allowed to say that word, but this is spiritual work. So I can tell you she's a lesbian.

sn2-41:22

But when I saw the competition, I left. I went down and got me a room and with a Chinese family there, and they had a little hotel and I rented a room. And so I went down the library and I'm trying to get some books on meditation and they'd have too many in the local library that was in Seattle. And so I stayed there, but I would meditate a little bit, think about things. I couldn't get any books. The main things, get something to remind you of philosophy or something like that. Couldn't get 'em out of the library. But it was just, I don't know where the pain come from, but it was my time. That was all. It was my time. And so when I came back, I was very unhappy. In fact, I cried for a week. I cried until I got out of of town.

sn2-42:25

And sooner I got Cleveland less, it bothered me. I stopped at the house. We worked together up there on the atomic submarine. That was the job I had before I went out there. And I stopped at each house, told him what happened. Now see, he was a student also. He took it rather lightly. I was always real serious about these books I read. But he would make, get a membership. And Yoga Nanda for instance, he'd get these guys, he'd get all their literature and he'd read it and then forget about it and go out and get drunk.

sn2-43:07

But he was a good friend. And I was amazed when I stopped there. I never have always thought that women don't talk about spiritual things. I've been around a lot of men or wives, very seldom ever talk about it. But I said to him, I told him what happened. I said, what do you think happened to me? See? And he says, Dick, I don't know. And his wife turned to me and she says, I think you lost your ego. And she hit the nail on the head without the loss of that ego. Nothing happens as we clinging to the physical mind and the physical being. See, and when you lose your ego, you're back to no definitions and information comes to you direct like it hits you in the head. See? So anyhow, little by little, so I'll tell you what happened. Also at the time.

sn2-44:04

There's a little book out there I wrote afterwards, sit down. I went back to working in the same place and it's called the Algen Papers. And in it in the back is a little section called the three books of the absolute. And this was my account of what happened and the effects it had on me. And I'd like to see it happen again. But I just wonder, there's a lot of trauma connected with it. There's a lot of trauma connected with it. For instance, I actually thought I wasn't going to get up off the bed. I thought I was dead when I left. And so consequently, the second time might not be the same. But also the feeling is that it's not impossible that when I do go, I'll go the same route. I'll be back up there looking for somebody that know I can talk to 'em. I guess. Speaker 4

sn2-45:14

Is that your expectation of Speaker 1

sn2-45:16

That's what be like, huh? Is that your expectation of what that Oh, I think I died. Oh yes. I'm quite sure of it. The only funny thing was that I came, when I came back in the body, there was no pain. I don't know. I don't know. But I was trying to get a definition of it. I had all the books you read when you get into a real happening, you want to say, Hey, I don't trust myself. I want to get somebody that this has happened to. Where'd he go? Town? You don't know anybody. So I went down. It was nighttime. I don't know what I was doing.

sn2-45:56

I wanted to go off a bridge. I wanted to kill myself, and I couldn't find any bridges. The one bridge that I came out of Seattle was a floating bridge. And so I didn't want to jump off of that one. But finally I thought maybe I should hunt a minister up. Of course, I was born and raised a Catholic, so it was dark, getting darker at nighttime. And I thought, I want to talk to somebody and see if they've heard of accounts like this thing had happened to me and what's happened? What's going to happen as a result, and knocked on the door and I'm still got tears running down my face. I'm still weeping. I guess this guy thought that I'd lost my lover or something as the reason I was crying big. Got about 30, 35, well fed. You get bellies on him and he is looking down and scoring. When he's taller than me, he is looking at me very.

File sn3

Time: 46:49

Speaker 1

sn3-00:01

He saying, "What can I do for you?" And I looked around him, I said, "Don't you have older priests in here?" I wanted to get somebody that had some sense. I didn't think this fellow knew anything, and he didn't. He said, "Well, what's wrong with you?" Gruff like a sergeant. And I said, "Well, I've had something happen to me and I want to know how to handle it." And he said, "How long has it been since you've been to confession?" And that was one time in my life I wished I had a gun.

sn3-00:35

I thought, this guy is pretending to be helpful to humanity and here's a chance. And he's wanting me to confession's, going to free all of my troubles up. See, I don't commit sins. I don't commit sins. I don't think anybody commits sins. We all do the best we can. I don't think it's nice to kill each other. But nevertheless, I don't believe it. This sin stuff causes guilt. I just myself as all was hurting. It wasn't because I committed any sins. It's because I had an experience. I couldn't adapt. That's what was going on. I just couldn't adapt. I got on a bus and got out and every 10 miles brought me back to the old self. See, by the time I got to Cleveland, I was back to my old self. I wasn't upset. But from this, I believe, I think from this, because of the desire to look for and find the possibility of human adaptation or the human experimentation with healing or something of that sort, I think that experience I had accelerated it helped it see, yeah. Speaker 2

sn3-01:59

Mr. Rose, how do you discern between genuine spiritual insight and an experience brought on by mind trying to escape from trauma like out the woods for a month or two and the very aus your lifestyle and you have an experience. How do you discern between that being a genuine experience and just some part of you trying to escape from say, well, we'll satisfying G experience, we'll create it and we'll be happy. How do you draw the line between Speaker 1

sn3-02:26

The same way? If you're in love with the girl and you knew you can't trust her, but you got to take her word sooner or later. See, and that's the same way there. As you move, it is an adventure. You move in and hope that the best happens. That's all. It's referring down to the fact that possibly it couldn't happen again or it'd have the power to cause it to happen again or something. Speaker 2

sn3-02:58

I'm thinking more of people who have specific practices that they're very austere, very harsh on themselves. And a lot of times we'll hear about especially Zen tradition, people doing nothing but sitting up on top of cold rocks on top of mountains for years and years and years. And they'll have an experience. And when you're reading these accounts, it's very difficult to tell whether or not it's just something that some part of their mind can just created to make them think they were language. They get off the rock Speaker 1

sn3-03:33

If you move in the right direction. What that is, if you go out by yourself, that's what they were told to do. Now the American Indian did that too. When he reached a certain age, he was sent alone into the woods to get his connection. I don't know, in other words, guardian, angel or what it was. But if you get into that history, the same thing in the people in Australia. I don't know what they're called natives. They also go through a period of looking for their big brother and their big brother's like a guardian angel. And when they do something, they wait until they hear it. Their ear, yeah, strike. That's the way they catch the rabbits and everything. You always wait for the big brother to tell 'em how to do it. But I think that the number one, I think you're protected as long as you don't, you're not using that to hurt somebody. I think you're protected. I don't say it's going to repeat itself, but this thing, the going out on the mountaintop is necessary for a person to, you're talking to your inner self, you might say and say, I am not going to go down and play games with mankind anymore until I learn what I want to know from life. And that determination is what brings the information to you.

sn3-04:57

There's no step-by-step explanation of how it happens in steps. No, the people send these people out on the mountaintops. No. That's the only way to do it. See, and the American Indian seemed to sense it too. Seemingly he went out alone and when maybe a dagger and if a bear came along, he had either talked to the bear to convinced him not to hurt him or he had to fight. See, but that tension, putting the tension on the mind, see, and it seems to bring forth results. Now the danger is of course, if you put too much tension on your mind, the reading, you might say that the reading was caused by necessary wishful, hopeful thinking. Let's hurry up and get this over with. Don't kill me. Get me. Just give me any message and I'll go back with a messaging, start planting beans or something. Enter the elite life stream. Speaker 2

sn3-05:54

So you think that the committee, a very strong commitment itself is some of the protection that you're going to? Speaker 1

sn3-06:00

Sure. This is the whole thing with anything you do. I don't care if it's financial or what, you have to put your whole self into it. If you go out at halfway, nothing happens. And that's the reason the Indians did it when the boy was young, he wasn't married yet. You cannot do much spiritual work after you get married because there's negative forces that are in that. The baby is hungry and you've got to go out and hunt something for to eat and that sort of thing. There's a different pattern for it. So consequently, I feel that most of the people that you hear about were sent out by Zen teachers or the yogis in Asia. They were single people. They were single people. Speaker 3

sn3-06:54

How long did it take you before you were okay Speaker 1

sn3-06:55

With living again? No, I can't hear you. How long did it Speaker 3

sn3-06:59

Take you before you were okay with living again after your experience with what? Okay with living again, you didn't want, Speaker 1

sn3-07:09

Oh, how long did it take me? By the time I got back to Cleveland, I was back in touch with the minds of the people. Although I didn't particularly care to live. I didn't care to live. I sat down, like I said, I sat, I got some paper and I started writing. And that was the three books of the ab, because I wanted to get everything that I had seen or experienced in the changes that occurred. I thought it was worth doing. And I still read it every once in a while and things changed. The whole physical world changed to a great extent in the process. There was a phase that I went to, which things ebbed and flowed and material things would be liquid and that sort of thing.

sn3-08:18

Of course, after I got back there and got distracted by working in the plant again. But I'm glad I wrote it down because it bugs me. Every time I read it, it takes me back. I go back there and I can remember the sensations and the pain, tremend amount of pain with it. I didn't think I'd get back and I didn't. All you can do is talk about it, but I don't know if you know this or not, but there's a group that hangs around me, a group of people, and I'm from near Wheeling, West Virginia. And this is good information for people that wanted to live a certain way. And we have isolation centers, we have cabins, and that's boys built them themselves. Guys that come down there and build a cabin and want to go in isolation and some of 'em would need for 30 days. And this helps the mentality. It's not, what do you call it, narcissism or anything like that. It's the mind gets brighter, much brighter, and they're conviction that they're not wasting their time. It gets more valid. See, and this is reasonably down through history, I think this is what happened. You couldn't stay in the marketplace. You had to get out of town and whoever advised you, the teacher or whatever would say, go out and don't come back until you know something.

sn3-10:16

So there's things that you can challenge. And I don't like to explain too many of 'em because number one, I don't think you'd believe it. And the other thing is I have no way of even outlining what state of mind I was in when these things happened. I'm talking about healing somebody or taking a pain out of and to do that, I could see it. Before I did that, I could see the pain. Now you might think I'm as a T tall tale, but I had a girl that came in from Providence, Rhode Island, and we'd had a group of people over there. I was giving lectures over at Carver and some of those places. I met her at Providence, Rhode Island, a lecture I was giving. And she walked up to me and told me she had the same name I had with was no relation, but we had the same last name.

sn3-11:25

And next thing I know, she moved to Pittsburgh, so she'd be closer to our center in back of wheeling. See? And so she came down one time and we sat just like in meditation. We sat about five feet away from each other facing each other. And I saw him through her body, I could see through her body, and it looked like she had a string of rosary beads in this me across her chest and down below there was a large black area. And so I told her, I said, a strange, I see something like beads pulled across your chest.

sn3-12:17

And I said, in your pelvic area, there's just large part of section of blackness. And she said, well, I don't feel ill or anything, but she says, I'm having lung trouble or coughing or something. And she says, before I come down from Pittsburgh, I had some x-rays run, so I'll go back up and see if I can get them. And she went back up and got the x-rays. And here was the diagnosis that she had granuloma a string of granuloma and the direction, I don't know how it spoken, but it was on a slanted direction across the pressed, actually as I described it, see, well, but there was nothing said about this dark area. See, but when she got ready to have a child, she found out why she had, I forget what they call the thing. It's adherence of the womb to the backbone.

sn3-13:09

See, this isn't once, this is very frequent. These things can happen. And it is just, for instance, it's not nice for me to tell you even I have this superstition, maybe I'm bragging. I don't want to brag. See, if I brag, the power's going to be taken away because I'll be egotistical. It won't be taken away. I'll maybe mess it up by focusing on myself and making myself the important thing instead of the power itself. See, and I could give you many things like that that happened. And there's something, there's a realization that can occur in the mind of a person that will actually wipe them out. And it just seems like, well, you can see it coming. I think of your psychic. You could see it coming and when it hits a person, they hit the ground. And this happened very early in the group. I'll tell you, there's a man here that was sitting there at the time. Where's Gie? Speaker 3

sn3-14:31

He's Speaker 1

sn3-14:31

Out the, yeah, Augie. Yes. I've just said you're the only guy that's here from the first sitting we had with John mascara. And I was talking about the mind picking up. This is messages. Her mind picked it up too. See, Speaker 4

sn3-14:55

Talking about Jane Slay. Speaker 1

sn3-14:56

Yeah, yeah. Her husband was there. There were young married couples and MAs, Garcia's wife was there. And we were seeing what we call rapport session. And the rapport session is you sit in silence is almost like a, you might say a Quaker sitting. You don't talk, but things start to generate. And then after a while you can see them and sometimes they're shape of a human and sometimes they're drift slow. And sometimes you move very fast over your heads. And when I can tell by where they're going, who they're going to hit, so I point and they hit and well, this girl came in, come down, her husband would come in and sit with him and she thought we were a bunch of idiots. It didn't make sense to her so she could stay out in the kitchen and make coffee and drink the coffee and don't know why.

sn3-15:52

But we had this fellow was telling you about it. His wife was sitting there also and his name was mascara. And this thing would circle the top of the heads over the people. And when they didn't see it, I don't think any of 'em see it, but I'd see it and I'd point and to let the fellow know it was happening. His eyeballs got real big when it hits him, they get astonished. But at the same time, this girl from the kitchen walked in. She walked in and I had heard her tingling with the sugar cup and put sugar in her coffee. And I said, oh, you've been into the Sugar Bowl, just to have something to say more or less put her at ease. And we wanted her to sit there too. And when I said that, she went right down to the floor, she fell face force onto the floor and she wept for two hours and looked up at her husband and she saw him as an unreality. She's on her knees and her head, her head on the floor. And she looked up at him and said, I see you, but I know you're not there.

sn3-17:02

And she said to him, I forget what it was, but the gist of it was that she knew he was there, but he wasn't substantial to her. And he came to me afterwards, we went out in the kitchen and things all over and he said, Hey, where does this leave me? And I said, oh, don't worry about it. But she was two hours in that position and she had, it's not the great experience and being one with one with the God or one with the truth or whatever you want to call it, there's a secondary thing. But she lost her ego. She lost her ego. And I left her go because there's another, in this thing of experiences, there's different levels. Some of them are just hunches. Then there's in Roman Maharshi list them. The two main ones is Alati. And Alati is the equivalent of dropping a bucket down into the well and pulling it up with water. And when that's occur, you become like a drop of water in the ocean. You lose your identity, but you never ceased to be a drop.

sn3-18:44

And this is a complete experience when you supposedly know all about whether there is a God, whether there's a helpful hand, whatever it is. This is the end of your spiritual search. You're one with God, meaning the drop is one with the ocean. And she had hit the lower one. What she was doing, she had the valla, she was overwhelmed. She was overwhelmed by the importance of what she saw, but she wasn't, hadn't gone. I was trying to get her to go clear over to where she'd be one with what we consider God or the total answer that you can get involved living in this physical body. So I left her Guan for a while and then I had to pulled a chair over because she was on her knees and her head was on the floor. So I pulled her chair over and talked to her and she looked it up at her husband, told her.

sn3-19:49

That's when she said, you don't exist. I see you there. But in other words, everyone in that room was an illusion In the room was she had reached reality, real reality. Well, the sad part about it was when it was all over, she come over to me and kept thanking me and she says, oh, Ms. Rose, I don't know how to thank you. I said, you're not supposed to thank me. I said, help somebody else. This is the rule. You don't go up PO on the back, you just help somebody else. I will. She says, I will. She never come to another meeting. So she left town. But that don't matter. It doesn't matter what happened, whether she picked it up or not. But there were instances, there were quite a few instances of people that got, but still, you got to go back eventually to get a job, earn some money and maybe even raise some kids that's been in the cards.

sn3-20:56

So her and her husband both dropped out of the group. They separated in fact. But I think that if you want something, go for it. But all you have to do research. But I mean you have to, like some people who will clear over to Asia, they figure somebody's got a system over there. They go over and turn over there possibly. There are people there, but it isn't done necessarily by anybody. It's done by yourself. It is total identification of the projects. Like you say you want to build a house and you've got some lumber and you got to hammer and some nails, you got to start and you don't do very good because you're not a carpenter. But hang in there, you'll be a carpenter. See, we know that. But everybody just hang in there. Whatever you want out of life, you can have it. If you're not too egotistical when you play the ego, you don't move. See, when you brag, you don't move. You just quietly except. But who was, it said that give us the wisdom of the difference. Serenity prayer. Huh? It's called the Serenity prayer. The what? The serenity prayer. Right? Right. Yes. Speaker 3

sn3-22:33

Did she see when she all the other people village room or was she Speaker 1

sn3-22:43

Seeing them as part of the ocean?

sn3-22:46

The girl on the floor? No, no. She saw them as not important, not important at all. She saw them. She saw him. And she said that to him when he came out out of the room later and he said, where does this leave me? He thought the way she acted, she wouldn't have any parts of it. But that isn't true either. That isn't true. Because I think if you're not capable of friendship, you're not capable of dealing with the truth. And I don't think anybody should ever, if you have something good happens to you, don't turn against your husband or your family or anything like that is not necessary. See, in fact, it might be nice if you have children or something and they see that such can happen. See, and I know I had three children and one of them, one girl never paid any attention to it. But the other girl was convinced, she was convinced that what had happened to me, because kids have an intuition too. They don't know how to put the name it. I use the words, but it is a magical game to me. It's a wonderful magical game.

sn3-24:23

There's no way, if you say you want to heal somebody, what are you going to do if I get a book and read it? No, you just focus your mind on it and tell somebody, like I said, you look at somebody, you think they have a headache, you said to them, Hey, I think you've got a headache. They say, I don't have a headache. Don't get upset. Don't get upset. You missed. That's all. But your mind is in that inclination. Your mind is inclined. And I've often, we used to have what we call a AU with down there, and there'd be 50 people there. And I'd walk through and point at them and tell them where their pain was. And then if they said Yes, I got a pain, then I'd go up and take it away. And funny thing was that nobody made a great fuss over it. They got used to it. And it was just fun. It was really fun.

sn3-25:22

Of course, I don't really know what happened to the people, but she left that part of the country and went down to Texas and been there ever since. So I don't know. I don't know what, whether she's trying to do something with her life or not. But I think it's the most important thing is to know that someone else has to be helped someone else. And if you make a mistake, that's all right. But you'll get better. It's almost like a sharpening of the pencil. You'll get better, you'll know. But of course, I don't today, I don't, 20 years ago I was taking headaches away. I'm not too keen about taking headaches away unless somebody I bump into somebody that's really having a bad headache or something. It seems like I'm always afraid it look like showing off and we don't want to get into that. Yeah. Did you have any Speaker 5

sn3-26:32

Psychic experiences like this before you had your day experience where you were life, anything you observed in any psychic? Would you Speaker 1

sn3-26:41

Survive? But always the attitude should always not be, I'm going to do this. Let's see if something can happen. That's what I say. When we get a group of people together, I'll say, let's get together and see if something happens. But don't be proud that you caused it to happen. And if you aren't proud, it'll happen more often. See, but there's something about negativity or something negative about these forces. Don't want a fool with somebody that's bragging about it because I know I'm not capable doing it. I'm just people walking in when something happens. It is a coincidence of being there and the party being in the right mood, the right condition, and all that sort of thing. Speaker 5

sn3-27:36

In your writings, you talk about a book by preacher called Constant Consciousness. Yeah. And did you find any similarities in the people in that book, their experiences? Were there any common denominators between your experience? Speaker 1

sn3-27:50

We didn't all have the same type. Some, in fact, I don't remember of any of 'em having the complete experience. And like I said, we become one with God, one with the ocean, the drop one with the ocean. Most of them were healings. Small things, impressions, realizations seeing more clearly. And that scene more clearly deepens their faith in the possibilities of things that can happen in the future. And basically, I don't know any limit. I don't know limit any limit. I used to know I could win 600 to a thousand dollars in an evening, played poker, but I quit and I didn't see through the cards. I asked for 'em and he came. I vocally asked for them and he come. They wanted to shoot me. Some of the guys thought I was reading back in the text. So you Speaker 2

sn3-28:56

Said after your experience, that was the end of your path. You didn't have to learn anymore. Is that right? That was the end of your search. Speaker 1

sn3-29:08

Well, no, it wasn't the end of my search. It wasn't end of my search. I had reasons to intensify. In fact, my thoughts came back to my family then see, and I thought, like I said, had this thing, I wrote for three books, the absolute, absolute. And I showed it to my oldest daughter. She was a freshman down in Morgantown University. I dunno, I think it's WVU U they call it. And she was home on a vacation. And so I gave her the paper and let her read it. I went back in the room and she was looking straight ahead and it was laying on her knees. And I just picked it up and eased it away from her. Didn't say anything. A couple days later I said, what'd you think of that? That section of the Algin paper is what it turned out to be later. And she looked up at me rather seriously. And she says, dad, I know that you are God and Speaker 3

sn3-30:28

I am also weak. Speaker 1

sn3-30:42

Yes. The transition Speaker 4

sn3-30:46

Is the transition to inside that occur always happen, always fast, or can it happen gradually? Speaker 1

sn3-30:59

Transmission. These things that I discussed were transmissions. In other words, if you look into somebody through somebody's body and affect that body, that's a transmission of energy. Speaker 4

sn3-31:14

I'm talking more or less insight or like you said, for revelations. When you say the big one or the one that counts the most or whatever, does that always happen fast or does it sort of like you just look bad? Speaker 1

sn3-31:40

You mean this acceptance, receiving of the power, understanding the understanding. Oh, I think it comes to you in a flash, but you have to analyze to realize how deeply the gift is, what the substance of it is. It is a very light feeling. Very light feeling. And it is happiness because you feel that's it. You've discovered it, you've projected it. One point is that, huh? Speaker 4

sn3-32:19

Can you reach a point in which that point maintains always all the time? Speaker 1

sn3-32:25

No, no, no. You got to get that nickel for Kroger's and you got to be human at times. So it isn't there every moment of the day. It's, it's almost like when two or more are gathered together in my name, I'm in their midst. Did you ever hear that? That's real? Did you ever hear that? That's in the Bible? I think Christ supposedly said it. And this was what miracles he performed were much more frequent in my estimation, when he had apostles, 12 men with him. And that was like a battery of energy. See? So things were more likely to happen. But when he was a single fellow, he was a wise child, but he wasn't heal anybody. See? So I think it's almost physical. It's an almost physical thing. It's invisible. You can't see it until your eyes or your mind is able to pick it up to your mind.

sn3-33:51

But the whole thing is that this stuff passes by. The thing is to get a few people together, if you like to experiment, give a few people to do it. Unselfishly don't, don't think you're going to get rich off of it or anything. Get in the movies or anything like that, don't happen. But there's power in the assembly of people for a common purpose. They all have the same purpose. And I use statements. I can't say anything else. It's the way you hold your head. And other than that, I can't define it. I can't say to the left or the right, that sort of thing. Yeah. Does the enlightenment experience Speaker 6

sn3-34:52

Lead you with a life that is what everybody else is going through, but you'll never be satisfied? Speaker 1

sn3-35:01

Satisfied. I'm satisfied. How can you do? Huh? How can you do? Well, I don't expect to be a know everything or to do everything. These little things that happened in my estimation are, what do you call it? Convincing items that manifest that I'm on the right track and that I have touched the button. I've got the button that can cause things to happen. See, but I don't think we should run around exercising that button, except when there's a time may come. That's all. It's good to do it so that you can know you can do it, but I don't believe it. If you can help people sometimes some people can't be helped to. You try to help them. Speaker 6

sn3-36:02

The ups and downs that are delusionary. Speaker 1

sn3-36:08

No, no. There's some, I had a case here. In other words, somebody calls on me. I always go, I always try to help. And this is just recently, just a few months back, I had a girl that was a neighbor in the neighborhood where we lived. They got ahold of my wife and found out that I could hypnotize people. So wanted to know she was drinking booze, she was killing herself, drinking. She'd get drunk and fight with her boyfriend and he'd break her nose and her face looked like a prize fighter's face. So I said, yeah, I'll come down.

sn3-36:49

And I went down and I hypnotized her and told her she'd be free of alcohol and removed. Got up and left. And her father was there and he says, well, every needy again, we'll call you. She got killed. And a week later she got killed week later by her husband. But I told the family, I said that she should be hypnotized at least once a week to keep this protection. She didn't drink for the whole week. Between the time I hypnotized her, she got killed. But then on the last day, I don't know exactly what day it was now, she went up and started cursing him and he took a gun and killed her. But she still, she got drunk that day. But that was So sometimes you have to stay with 'em. Yeah. He was Speaker 5

sn3-37:50

Asking about earlier about your search. Now that you've had this experience, what do you now still strive or caring or what do you feel is in lead now? Speaker 1

sn3-38:02

Well, I strive to see if I can get into towns like Raleigh and Chapel Hill and talk to some people. That's pretty much your lot people. Is Speaker 5

sn3-38:14

That your main conviction now? Or do you feel like your stuff is you need to learn yourself still? Speaker 1

sn3-38:21

I don't think, I don't expect to learn anything. I don't expect to learn anything. I do expect that it can be accelerated. That these things that when you're able to do them, they can be accelerated and they can have a greater scope. But I don't particularly want a greater scope unless it would be that I could heal somebody faster or heal them of a greater disease. And the whole thing is I am not dedicated to healing. I'm not that I'll do it because I have the gift for it, and I absolutely do not charge. I mean, if people have tried to pay me, then that kills it. That's my superstition. You become a huckster and your powers fail because you get greedy. You want to raise the rates after a while. See, Speaker 4

sn3-39:14

I think what he's asking though is do you think you have any more stages of spiritual development that you have to go through? Speaker 1

sn3-39:21

I really can't define how spiritual I am. I don't feel like a spiritual person. I don't feel like, I just feel that I get lucky at times and I know when to point see. I know when to point. And sometimes that's all it takes to knock a person off their feet. Well, that's you get them searching and give 'em a suggestion. Quit drinking, do this. But my next step will be to leave. And I don't know how that'll come about and it doesn't matter. But I feel that I've got consciousness. I think I'll have more consciousness. I won't have to worry about entering into an oblivion period. See, I have to wait 10,000 years to wake up. But that's my conviction there. Speaker 5

sn3-40:24

But you don't really have any more desire to, or a yearning Speaker 1

sn3-40:27

To learn. I never did. I never did. It has to come. It has to come and I have to run into it. See, it is like this girl that came down and another fellow, it was ready to hit him, and for some reason it left and hit her. I mean, these things are visible. A lot of this stuff is visible. See, and I don't go out looking for people, but I think I feel more worthy of my, if I am capable of doing something, if I can help somebody, see, and not only that, but by using the system that I do, it encourages them to see if they can't do it. See, now, of course, I'm going to tell you something. There's a factor I haven't touched on. And that is if you want to succeed, you remain celibate.

sn3-41:22

Nothing much will happen unless you're celibate. And celibacy brings power, a tremendous power in that field. See, we get distracted. There's nothing. Distract us more and it will send you down. Digging foundations, building houses real fast and buying diapers. See, of course, I had a family. I raised a family, but I ain't saying I made the best husband because I always kept it on the back burner. I remained celibate through my marriage. In other words, not a hundred percent, but set a time period because it takes your energy. It is just like a person wants to be a prize fighter. They're all advised to be celibate. That's what I've understand. They're all advised to be celibate. It takes an exceptional amount of energy to go through that routine. But the other thing too is that this, while under celibate, you'll not be attacked by entities. This can happen. We're dealing with things we can't see. There are such things as entities and they have other use for the bodies in there was people in sex. People are tempted, so to speak, and everybody knows it. There's a time maybe they don't think about it. And all at once, they do think about it in the urge. See? But by studying celibacy, you call the shots. You don't let it happen. When the impulse comes see,

sn3-43:42

Well, it's quite enough, we could hold a seance. Right? Get 'em all in a circle. Speaker 4

sn3-43:47

So the purpose of celibacy is not only to clear the mind, but there's more to it in that Speaker 1

sn3-43:54

The power. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. This is knowledge, not just something that's popped up, but there's a tremendous lot of opposition. For instance, in the field of psychology, they ridiculed immediately. And this whole human race seems to be wanting to lose any spiritual direction at all. The words going out to attack the teachers, to attack the children sexually. In other words, I dunno if you've seen these documents, but their papers went out in West Virginia. I know where they were suggesting that the teachers should masturbate the children to get them practiced. And this is, it also says in the Bible, if a man scandalizes a child by Ropa, rock around his neck and throw him in the ocean. And that's my feeling too. That should be done. I don't know what's coming over the human race, but there's a tremendous disease in my estimation. Children are saints. Babies are saints. Nobody should ever pollute them. And when that kind of stuff comes on, our psychological system is shot. It is evil. It's an enemy then. Speaker 3

sn3-45:33

Yeah. Speaker 6

sn3-45:34

Could you say something more about the entities that you were talking about? Speaker 1

sn3-45:38

Energy. The entities. Entities. You say something more about that. Well, if you want to meet some of 'em, you can meet them. Some of them are rather violent, possessed people have them or possessed people have them. Speaker 5

sn3-46:07

Is it something that's kind of, you say it's inside of you, were totally separate from you. Speaker 1

sn3-46:12

What Speaker 5

sn3-46:12

Did you say? It's something these things are that Speaker 1

sn3-46:16

Are inside of you or totally separate. They're not. You keep 'em outside if you can. They're not inside of you, but they attack the inside of you to get you to do certain acts that will cause bloodshed or will cause the loss of body fluids or something of that, which I think is there some contact there in energy, the business of energy, you want to get some stuff on that and read it.

File sn4

Time: 24:46

Speaker 1

sn4-00:01

Some stuff on that and read it. If you just hear it from a single source, it might, first inclination may negate things, but there's a thing called exorcism, and it's not just a word. It is actually a function. It's actually a function that people sometimes get taken. Of course, they made a movie about it here while back. That was nonsense. That was a hodgepodge. You remember that movie? Speaker 2

sn4-00:31

Yes. Speaker 1

sn4-00:32

Yeah. Well, that actually happened. That actually happened. I think it was in Washington DC where it started. And this child was possessed. The movie was a little girl, but the producers of the movie wanted to make it more obscene. It was a boy, and it didn't happen that way. I thought that was a low trick to show this stuff that imaginations, whoever produced it, it was the imagination of what possession would do to a person. They had this little girl doing all these common things, but it was a boy. And was it Batty, Bady or Batty? The guy that wrote, huh? Blatty. Yeah. Wrote the book. But what happened?

sn4-01:32

This little boy had gotten possessed and they had a minister. This part of it happened in dc Minister came over and he said, well, I'll take care of it. He says, I'll say some prayers and I'll sleep in the same bed with the boys. So he seemed to get thrown out of bed with them. Strange things were happening. He got thrown out, the minister got thrown out on the floor. And so the mother came in one day, and when the boy was being possessed and spoke to her sister who was dead, it seemed that her sister, she had the child, her sister coming over here over there to her house and funneling the kid. The sister died and her sister, the mother's sister was still coming back. That was the reason the kid was being attacked. And the mother actually spoke out loud and said, whatever her name was, Amy, for the love of God, get out of here.

sn4-02:42

Leave the boy alone. See, she sensed where it was coming from, so she thought she'd better get, some people could exercise the kid, and so they took the boy clear out to Kansas or one of those places where there was a capish and monastery because the priest had the solution. They've got an exorcist method in their book, how to do it. And so this wasn't in the movie, I don't think it was. They got the boy between a couple of the priests and was talking to him and they were reading out of this, what was it, witches Hammer? Yeah, mal Malca, yeah.

sn4-03:42

And he was going through this book and reading the formula for getting rid of the demon. See? And of course, the boy walked up. The boy had been kicking him and that sort of thing too. But the boy walked up and touched his book with his finger, and the book just inated into confetti and trickled down to the floor. And they knew then they had something real powerful, real strong, and they stayed with him. I don't know what really ever happened, whether they got him clear, because that was just one big article in the Washington DC paper. I never found out. But Blatty wrote a book after that. Vlady, he wasn't in the scene. He just turned out to be the author. He must've picked up. Speaker 3

sn4-04:40

He was a student in Georgetown University. Heard about the Holton area from one of the professors at Georgetown University who was involved in theism. Supposedly he wasn't supposed to write about it. Part of the deal was that if the guy told him the story, he wouldn't write Speaker 1

sn4-04:58

About it. Yeah, they made a movie out of it. It was a morbid disgusting thing. It was nothing like it really happened. They put a little girl and it wasn't a girl, it was a boy. It was a boy that was possessed. But I guess if producers in Hollywood thought it would be morbid if they had a little girl being possessed. But these things, what I say, there's value to those spiritual capacities. People can move out. And they claimed that, and they wrote it up that the demon had killed the priest. The thing is that there's a procedure to follow, and this is a reason. Anybody that wants to get into spiritual work should know it, that if you're on dealing with dangerous stuff, you have to remain celibate and they cannot touch you. There's a book, if you can get ahold of, you want to read something on This is valid material because it was written back in the early days of the European history, it was Ben Venuto cini.

sn4-06:05

Now, this is in almost every library. Not many people buy it because not many people hear about it. But Ben Venuto Cini went with, he was a silversmith of something and he got a priest and another fellow, and they went down in the coliseum in Rome. And at that time, the coliseum was just a ruin cent. It was for some reason, they never really had a big roof over the place, but they went down for the purpose of drawing down a demon, and they had a formula for it. So they went through this formula and they drew a pentagram on the floor, and they stood within that because as long as they stayed within that pentagram, these entities couldn't get physically grab them or frighten them.

sn4-06:58

So I don't know what the procedure was, but the entities appeared and said they filled the coliseum, the explanation of what went on. And the priest was after gold of all things. That's what he wanted. He wanted them to help him find gold. Ben Vanda, she was a silversmith. He had a girl that he had seen. He didn't even know her name. He wanted her see. And there was a third party, I forget what he wanted, but the entity spoke to both of them. And they told Cini, he said, if you want that, you'll have it. The girl will be yours within 30 days. He didn't even know her name, but they said, well, you must come back tomorrow and bring a virgin boy. If you read this stuff in the literature, you think back there. These people were aware of stuff. They had been tinkering with this stuff and saw it. They were tempting that entity with an innocent little kid. See? Well, they brought the kid out and actually the kid became hysterical and the entities moved in as if they were going to put their hands on the child. See? And they got rid of, they backed them off Affinity. And so it's a foul smelling thing, and they throw it in on the charcoal and it caused this fme. And they said it drove them back. But anyhow, cini, he was back in town someplace. This girl came right up to him.

sn4-08:43

He didn't even, I don't know if he even knew her name. He might've, but she came and hunted him up. So I want to say about the power and self-control will and that sort of thing. You never know. And there's things people do today, for instance, dope is a bad thing for you. Put yourself in a position with dope in which things can get inside your body, and that's rough. And they go crazy. And what happens? They don't say they're possessed. Some of them, I'd say a lot of 'em are possessed, overdose. Guys that overdose, they put 'em in, what do you call it? A room with mattresses on all the walls and let 'em beat their head on against the walls. That's all. They don't find any real cure. They're immune even to medicine unless they get enough, something heavy to knock 'em out. But this is, we all should do research in this stuff. There's a tremendous, a lot of information available and some of these people that spent their lives studying it and maybe fasting and all this came up with knowledge and they wrote it down. Then they had a book for, it was called The Mal Car was written in Latin.

sn4-10:07

I think, of course, that there's, I think we have just as many entities they had then on. Now that we don't have any trouble with them because we surrender to 'em, we don't fight. Yeah. Speaker 4

sn4-10:25

You mentioned things like this, and there's a skeptical side of me that has always been skeptical about these things, and I wonder, since you've got such a rational approach to everything else, how do you screen out the FL artists and the wild stories from the things that you actually believe? Speaker 1

sn4-10:44

I think you have to have a little intuition or maybe a lot of intuition. And of course, again, where's your intuition come from? Singularity of the mental processes. See, and I think that, for instance, if you get rabid and your big aim in life is just to get another girlfriend. See, you don't have much intuition. In other words, you'll be a joyous animal having a hell of a lot of fun. See? But if you can get that serious thing, you can move away from people. And another thing too, a lot of people that you just meet accidentally and you get close to 'em, you're not, they're evil. You'll notice as soon as you get close to 'em. Speaker 3

sn4-11:41

Yeah. Do you Speaker 4

sn4-11:43

Yourself believe in at heaven or hell, like normally talk about in church, I guess, are you going to go to one or the other place after you Speaker 1

sn4-11:53

Die? Or angels or demons? What do you mean? These things from down below and the angels from Buffalo, they like two. Do you have any choice of the gate in heaven or hell after you die, or, oh, I don't think we have any choice. I don't think we have any choice. I think what it is, I think that there's possibly, if that lifestyle is in existence where people, these entities were just parasites. They possibly are very discarnate humans, that's all. And after they're dead, they come back and they want to handle the same type of people that they went after when they're alive.

sn4-12:32

I can see that it's possible that everybody don't meet oblivion when they die. Perhaps everybody. Everybody, they go through it and that's the end. You don't hear any more from 'em. But then there's a possibility that people after their dead return to pick up that energy. We used talking about Gia for a little while ago. Gio said that in the time of war, there were millions of souls being released from their body, and that energy formed a matrix of wisdom. Their information those people had was available. But at the same time, you got a tremendous amount of people who are coming hunting for sexual energy, people who are of sexual intent, because that's what the game they played on life in lifetime. See? So naturally there's automatically, I don't go for this thing called sin. I think there's mistakes. I think that if you go certain places in the country, it's a beautiful place. But here's poison ivy. If you don't know it, you get it. That's all you come home with, bumps all over you, and sex is a beautiful thing. But if you get syphilis, you're going to come home with bumps all over, you see?

sn4-14:12

But this seems to be an element that these entities that, well, there's a case, your mind in many pieces, if can remember these things, and you get in the library, you'll get the guy that makes books, the manufacturer, the publisher. This is a tremendous book about a guy that he was a psych psychiatrist and he had people in, he was married. But there was evidence, as I read, what happened that these people were possessed. He had a girl was possessed, see me, he said she was very pretty and she'd periodically throw a fit. It took five policemen to hold her down. He said she was just five feet high, no, great strength. But when she got into that possession, she had the strength of five policemen and four of 'em didn't dare come. You had to have five of 'em, one to hold every leg and every arm, and then somebody to put the needle in. He was that strong. And he threw her.

sn4-15:31

Well, at that time, they were getting voices of things that were causing her epilepsy, or whatever you want to call it, seizures she had, and he got voices, and he copied these on, recorded it, and they come out and told that they really wanted a sexual relationship with certain, one of 'em wanted a baby, wanted to take a baby with some young girl had, I don't know if they meant to kill the baby or take it sold someplace, or just to possess it while it was available. Just get in its body while it's living. The result is the baby goes into a fit. But anyhow, he mentioned several times in talking about this red-haired girl that she was very beautiful.

sn4-16:30

Then he shifted and he starts the next chapter. No longer mentions her, but he felt compelled toward the end of the book, always said in regards to the girl that was possessed, I had to quit the practicing or helping her because his wife had got into trouble. He didn't say what the trouble was. And he said he had to cut his practice down so he could stay home with his wife. And she died. The girl died because he couldn't keep dope on her, keep sedating her. When I read it, I told some of the fellows what happened. What I figure happened was that he had intercourse with the girl and then went home and had intercourse with his wife. So now you've got two women possessed. See? And with that, he didn't bother to get back to the little red-haired girl. This was, I thought, a tremendous, very honest description by a psychiatrist of possession. He would record voices that came through her and they would identify, some of 'em were men's voices, and they would tell which people they wanted. And one of 'em said, I don't want her. I want the baby. I thought to myself, if this is evidential, we're neglecting something. We're really neglecting finding a method of identifying these things and then stop in contact. Just don't let people get too close to 'em. That's all. But that's mind. In many pieces, I forget the name, the guy, the author was the doctor. So there's more stuff than we have dreamed about, and it causes a method of conduct. And that's the reason that if you're on a spiritual path, whatever you do, you'd be celibate. Yeah. Speaker 4

sn4-18:42

You were talking about intuition and how important that is. And Fred, where you're talking about experimenting with SP cards, intuition, is there anything that you can recommend to help just Speaker 1

sn4-18:53

Prep exercises with your intuition or help develop your intuition? Your intuition is simultaneously develops with purity simultaneously. The thing is, it is a perception thing. Just like I said, if you allow yourself to, you may be able to look at somebody and see an ulcer in their stomach or a headache in their head, see, but if you're dissipating, that won't happen. It just won't happen. We have to study ways and means of expanding our intuition. We have to welcome it with happiness when it comes across and gives us something. See what I mean? And take that mood toward it. If you're going to have to tell me you're going to have to come down to the farm where we can take a week or two and talk about this stuff, incident. We don't run a racket. We don't charge people just happy to have 'em. And you see, right now, something's happening. Some of you will feel it, and if they were sitting in the proper order, you would have what we call rapport, and there would even be possibly phenomena occur because you can pick it, you can hear it, see when everybody's silent at the same time. I can see that the same thing as the thoughts are temporarily hawed. See, we're thinking and waiting,

sn4-24:16

And we will go. Maybe we can all get together again sometime.

Footnotes

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