1991-1007-What-Is-Enlightenment-Raleigh

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Title	1991-1007-What-Is-Enlightenment-Raleigh
Recorded date	October 7, 1991
Location	University, Raleigh NC
Number of tapes	This was a videotape, now ripped to DVD and to mp3.
Other recorders audible?
Alternate versions exist?
Source
No. of MP3 files	4 mp3 files from ripped video, but file 4 is silent (30 min but no audio).
Total time
Transcription status	Auto-AI at Rev.com Nov 20, 2025, pasted here Jan 1, 2026.
Link to distribution copy	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ (need password)
Link to PDF	http://distribution.direct-mind.org/ Or try http://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?
Published on which website?
Remarks	VHS converted to DVD, then to mp3.
Audio quality	Very good
Identifiable voices	Pre intro by Gerge, then Intro by Augie Turak
URL at direct-mind.org	https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1991-1007-What-Is-Enlightenment-Raleigh
	For access to this wiki or the audio files please send an email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp	20260101030421

To Do

Notes

Video tapes were ripped to DVD-VOB, then these were ripped to mp3.

1. 1 = 1 hour, #2 = 1 hour, #3 = 53 min, #4 = blank.

Youtube links

Short: @TATFoundation You Have To Fight For Enlightenment

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xQUeg_YquAo

Short: @TATFoundation "That Isn't The Truth"

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WlJSfBdvsg4

Gábor Hényel: Richard Rose - Part 1 /Lecture extracts/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGltafGTtzg

With playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGltafGTtzg&list=PLzEEjsU44dvj5K_Waz38coKGGgwxWJXVt

Transcription

File vid1

Time: 1 hour

Speaker 1

vid1-00:17

We're talking about chaos,

Speaker 2

vid1-00:18

That something gets out of the ordinance. So chaos,

Speaker 1

vid1-00:28

Which has no,

Speaker 2

vid1-00:38

Not everything, the mistake engineers and scientists are making make that mistake. You're only using

Speaker 1

vid1-01:18

To me parallel universes. Everybody's new says that they don't exist. They can't be proven.

Speaker 2

vid1-01:27

What happens in they deny they don't find something flaw. Gravity is a flaw we don't understand. Take any course on infinity. Unstoppable force meets an happens. This goes back to the

Speaker 3

vid1-02:29

Hi there. We're in a few rush preparations to try to make more room for people to breathe. So we're going to move the refreshment table right outside the door so you can get up and go out and you need to breathe to get a little cool and get something to eat. Feel free. I know it's a little tight, so we'll try to keep a nice, for those of you sitting on the floor, please just punch that you going sit on the floor and want to be here that, but try to leave an aisle for people to get in and out if they have to. Thanks.

vid1-03:04

Before we get going tonight, I'd like to say a little bit about the organization that helped make tonight's event happen. My name is George Mueller. I'm with the Self-Knowledge Symposium and the UAB Lecture Committee. Both of these organizations have worked together tonight to let this evening happen. The Self-Knowledge Symposium is a nonprofit non-denominational student group here on NC State Campus who was formed about two and a half years ago as a result of a small group of people in the University Scholars Program that took a great interest in these topics. After hearing a talk by Mr. Tur, Mr. Turak has been a student of Rose for on and off 20 some years. He's spent five years of his youth around college age working very intensely with Mr. Rose. And since then he fell from the path for a while and then came back to it again and devoting himself with me further to trying to get the word out that what this man has to say is important. I think everyone who's worked tonight to make this lecture happen believes that what he has to say is very important and can change your life. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce Mr. August. We'll be presenting Mr. Rose.

vid1-04:42

AT: Well, we got a full house here tonight. Thanks everybody for coming. I want to talk just a couple of minutes by Mr. Rose. Some of you might've been here a few weeks ago when I lectured and talked to Greg Lane. I hope interestingly enough about Mr. Rose. I met Richard Rose about 20 years ago when I was about your age, maybe a little more mixed up, maybe a little less mixed up in some of you. I don't know that, but I was looking for some answers in my life and it checked into a number of things at that point in time. Finally, a friend of mine, which would look like a coincidence in retrospect, maybe it wasn't a coincidence, told me about lecture and downtown Pittsburgh, a philosophical society where a zen master was supposed to be speaking with a little bit of anticipation but not much hope. I went down to take a look at the guy. I'd seen a lot of people at that point in time. A lot of things stand out and this is not a lecture about an introduction. I'm talking about what happened to me in that first meeting that I had. But I remember Rose said one thing that has stuck with me for a long time. He said, life is really a question of whether you're going to live like a dog or whether you're going to find out why a dog lives.

vid1-06:00

AT: And that really struck me along with a lot of the feelings that I got in listening to the man. His sincerity is an obvious integrity and his devotion to what he was doing. So I came up afterwards and I said, Hey, I'd like to get to know you a little bit better. He said, sure, come on down to West Virginia. That's where I live. And I went down and I started spending time with this man and I found a little bit about his life. I've learned a lot more on the intervening 20 years. Richard Rose started out as a very poor part of a very poor family during the depression spent much. A couple of times he was put into an orphanage by his family because they didn't have enough to eat for the whole family, so they'd have to put him in for an orphanage for short periods of time.

vid1-06:42

AT: He was always very, very motivated by religious concerns. He was brought up Catholic. He found himself writing on a piece of paper as earliest memories are. Many are called fewer chosen, many are called. If you were chosen, he would look down on a piece of paper and see himself doodling those words. By 12 years old, he decided to go to a monastery to be a priest, but he went with a little bit different attitude than most people I think do He really thought he was going to get the answers to the end of the universe, who God was, thought he was going to meet God in a monastery. He thought he was going to meet men who had known God on a personal basis. He was very disappointed. And after a number of years in the monastery, he left, he got into spiritualism. He decided to check out spirits to find out if there was anything that happened, and he's got a really good story about that, which if you want to, you can pry out of him tonight about what he found out in looking for spirits. But one thing he did find out, he said price was correct, it dead, no nothing.

vid1-07:39

AT: He then decided in a peak that he would get into chemistry and physics and he would figure everything out and divide the molecules to find out what life was all about. He spent a number of years that doing that and he decided St. Thomas Aquinas was right. The finite mind will never perceive the infinite and the intellect will never unravel the secrets of the universe all unaided. But one thing he kept through all of this with product of the age of 21 or 22 was a determination that if he didn't know who he was, if he didn't know whether there was a God or if he didn't know, the three great questions, who am I? Where did I come from and where am I going? Then life was not worth living because at that early age, he had decided that he was not going to live like a dog and just go through life responding to the petty things that he seemed to see most people around him doing.

vid1-08:27

AT: He found yoga and at 22 he made a vow to himself that he said that I'll either go crazy, I'll die or I'll find the answer. And for the next seven years, he devoted himself to harsh disciplines traveling around the country. Again, I'd encourage people to ask questions tonight and get some of the parts of this story because they're very interesting. At 28 years old, he had had tremendous experiences, but he found out that he still didn't know the answers. And I'll have to steal one of his lines, which I always liked. He always says at 28, my hair was falling out, my teeth were falling out, and what the hell was good was peace of mind and bliss if I was going to die stupid. So he said he decided that he was going to give up all this philosophy and go out and get married.

vid1-09:18

AT: Remember one time he said to me, fortunately all the women I met traded me like something that crawled out from under a wet rock. He said, I think God had a hand in it. He kept me on the path. But he vacillated back and forth between a tremendous drive that he had built up over many years to search for the truth. And on the other hand, a grad gathering despair as he began to realize that he had been kidding himself on so many different levels down through the years believing what he wanted to believe, et cetera, et cetera, which many of us do at the age of 30. And again, there was a number of very interesting circumstances that surround this at the age of life circumstances. At the age of 30, Mr. Rose had a cataclysmic experience happen to him, something he didn't expect, something he didn't understand at the time, but something that he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt was the answer to all of his questions from that day forward when that happened to him when he is 30 years old, Mr. Rose is in his early seventies now.

vid1-10:14

AT: So for the last 40 years, he has been dedicated his life to trying to communicate that to other people selflessly, compassionately working because he won't compromise his message very often alone or with few people to work with, he has continued to put his energies directly into what he believes. Of all the things I was writing down before this lecture tonight, many of the things that I learned from Richard Rose, one of them was I learned exactly what character is, what people mean by character. I learned what zen means when it talks about action. Probably foremost, I learned from him what zen means when it says Your life should be walking, not wobbling walk, don't wobble. A zen master one time answered that question when somebody asked him, what is zen? It's walk don't wobble. And I learned that from Richard Rose. I learned that strength can also can be combined with compassion.

vid1-11:14

AT: I learned that the power to be intimidating as we were talking about today can also be combined with kindness and many, many different paradoxical things. And probably first and foremost, I learned what is meant in the East by detachment and what is meant by service and selflessness, how someone can be tremendously committed, dedicated to the point almost of obsession. And something gets you detached at all times and always remember the human element in it. But probably from my life, the most important thing that I've learned from Richard Rhodes is that, and the thing, I would hope that all of you, whether you believe him, don't believe him or believe me or don't believe me, would carry away from this talk is that there is ladies and gentlemen something out there or as he would say something in there, something beyond your wildest imagination. Something more real, more terrifying, more wonderful than the books and the comic books and the fantasies that you've read. And it's waiting there for you to uncover. But if you don't get off your butt, it'll stay covered. But it is there. Thank you. Richard Rose,

Speaker 5

vid1-12:35

Excuse me,

vid1-12:43

R: I think he said it all. I might as well go home. I'm supposed to sit down, but I don't think I can talk very well sitting down. I'm going to begin by inviting questions because I've talked here before and I find out that there's always, people have a lot of questions and when I get to give a talk, I don't stop. So they can't either pose their question, so it might be interested. Maybe some people will not know what zen is or whether it's important or unimportant. And if you've read anything on it and you're curious about the procedures, I'll leave it open for questions and I think it's a good way to communicate.

vid1-13:44

R: Yes, what is enlightenment? What is enlightenment? Oh, that can't be answered. You can't define that. You can only define it for yourself after it happens to tell somebody to spell it out. You're going to get into adjectives, you'll have to define, and that goes on forever because it is almost like saying I'm in a certain mood and somebody else has describe it, but I'll try to get through to you a general idea. The truth of the matter is that you, no one ever knows what it is until it happens. So even if I describe it to you, it won't not be much value until you get interested and sign out for yourself and cause it to happen. But I'll tell you, one of the discoveries that you'll make is the fact that this place doesn't exist. So why am I talking now? Because we exist. Because we exist. Yeah. I thought I saw somebody's hand back there.

Speaker 5

vid1-15:02

Yeah,

vid1-15:09

R: That call with being a Christian and calling a Christian lon, you don't have to be a Buddhist to find the same answer that zen finds. There have been Christian saints, you might call them people who pledged themselves to a whole life of asceticism or whatever it took to get a step beyond. And some of them breached it according to this is all we have to go by is literature or an active teacher. The only thing is that zen is more of a, I would say, a perfect psychological process rather than then a tireless, relentless pursuit of self annihilation, starving yourself or doing penance or that sort of thing.

vid1-16:07

R: I heard a lot about confrontation. What purpose, confrontation, serve. Confrontation is we have, everybody has a conception and the conception is colored by the family. You are born into the country, you're born into the religion, you're practicing. And as a result of that, a lot of fiction sometimes develop because the majority of people may not agree with you. Meaning their attitude is that you're either wrong or they're wrong Because of that, if a student comes in and he says, I'd like to have the truth, then you find out if he can stand the truth, if he knows what it's about. And the only way you can get him to know what it's about is to question him. And that's confrontation. And it all lead to the same place. It doesn't matter when you start defining stuff, you'll eventually wind up defining things that aren't relative. You'll move from the relative dimension to a metal dimension or possible some possibility dimension of some possibility that we haven't touched yet. See, yeah, I can see the hand. I can't see the,

Speaker 7

vid1-17:31

Is it involved with finding a permanent center within yourself that warring between two factions inside yourself in order to find a permit center?

vid1-17:43

R: Well, it's hard for me to align it to the adjectives that you give, but I understand what you're driving at. And that is, let me say that a man has to become, and that means he has to change and the center develops differently. See for each person. In other words, that's where the questioning in zen, there's a story of a person that had epilepsy. No, it was a possession. I think the person was possessed. And somebody asked the zen teacher, he said, how did you cure him? And he said, I questioned him just incessantly questioning, why are you doing it? And of course, this was maybe 500 years ago. And our present day psychiatrists don't do much more. They make it. If they fall at that, they may have more success instead of pumping the ine or something like that. But it is the physical. You acquires nothing but the person itself. That is the observer is that which finds reality. And when it finds reality, and this game that we played, the body we left behind are insignificant. Doesn't matter that much.

Speaker 5

vid1-19:11

Yeah.

Speaker 8

vid1-19:12

I have two questions. I read your little pamphlet on meditation. The first question has to do with visualization.

Speaker 5

vid1-19:21

You

Speaker 8

vid1-19:21

Say that it's not only non-spiritual, it's talk a little bit about that.

vid1-19:27

R: Well, there's a whole class of effort put out to the idea of visualizing things instead of proving them Zen. The reason I got into it, I heard Augie give you a little rundown on my experience before I went away when I was 12 years old to be a Catholic priest and I wasn't dealing with facts, I was dealing with beliefs. And when I found that out, I decided to go somewhere where I could find facts. And this is the same with meditation. People are meditating on certain things, maybe a pet rock, maybe a piece of crystal, see all sorts of things or reading books. And because it flatters something that they would like to have in their nature, they'll read the book that follows their own convictions up to date. So when you get, what do you do meditation for? I don't know why some people meditate.

vid1-20:31

R: Maybe one person meditates for a different reason, maybe just to quiet themselves down. But if you're going out for answers in meditation, it's the same thing as the confrontation or the koans that they talk about in Zen, you make sure that you're not looking for dreaming a daydream in which you'll imagine you'll meditate on the pleasures you might have when you drink a beer or whatever you do, or say a prayer you may think that may give you ecstatic delight or something like that. So what you meditate on is yourself and the things that you do that perhaps you don't approve of mistakes you made and then you analyze that. And too there's a process of eroding away the ignorant part of your nature. The other thing is you have a complex, if you have a complex, you can't stand certain people or you get angry at a certain time, or you may even think of killing somebody.

vid1-21:36

R: I mean, that's gone through my head too at times. But you look at it, you say, why? See why? And you go back. If you continue to question yourself, you'll go back sometime in your maybe early childhood where you were confronted or somebody hurt you. And once you realize that, you realize that your whole lifestyle that you build up for revenge, your anger or defense is useless and not needed. You don't need it. See? And then the injury that the person gave you passes away and you're free. But as long as you have the idea of the revenge, so consequently you meditate. My advice in the low pamphlet is to meditate upon your trouble. It's not upon your pleasure. And people meditate. I used to see fellows that take acid or something and sit, meditate, and they'd be happy, real happy. I think they were dialing heaven getting in there another pill and they'd be one of the archangels.

vid1-22:43

R: And this is an exaggeration of course, about what almost everybody does in meditation. They want to relax. They come home from work perhaps, and they want to go into a posture and relax and think of niceness. No, what's holding up your personality and your life is the negative things that's happened to you. And there's a lot of stuff written on meditation. And it's the reason I wrote that pamphlet is because it's not good sense. It's not good sense to meditate on pleasure if you want to know who you are. And after you correct yourself, you'll say, Hey, I am not as important as I thought it was. I thought I was important enough that I should go punch that guy in the nose. See, but you're not important enough. It's just something that's going to get in your road if you do. That's all

Speaker 8

vid1-23:36

My second question. You talk a lot about thesis this last year on survivors of childhood abuse and encountered many multiple personalities and very interesting phenomenon of the mind. And I was wondering if you know anything about that.

vid1-24:00

R: Now you have to speak lately. Did you say complex?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:04

Multiple

Speaker 6

vid1-24:04

R: Personalities? Yes. What do you think they are?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:08

I don't know. I've met several in my work and my thesis.

Speaker 6

vid1-24:13

What were they children or adults?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:14

They were adults.

vid1-24:15

R: Yeah, they were adults. Clearly defined. Would you, let's say to define this term, would you say that it would be the same possession?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:25

All I can do is tell you what they told me. And they didn't feel possessed. They felt they had up to the people I met, one of them had 19 personalities.

Speaker 6

vid1-24:35

R: Well that's same as possession, taking over their body. And sometimes when they, well, they communicated clearly when they were dealing, they learned to communicate with the different person, different personalities. They weren't tell you. I'll give you one bit of advice. If you have business with those, I'd advise you to drop the business because the things you're talking about can be the real, can be physical enough to light on you like a flea and be hard to get off.

Speaker 8

vid1-25:15

Do you see this as you see this as some entity, an external entity that takes them over? Or is this a trick of the mind that happened because of childhood? Or

vid1-25:25

R: Is this part of the first is truth? The second is modern psychology's vain effort to make nice excuses for it. So everybody won't hate somebody else's cause they're possessed. What type

Speaker 1

vid1-25:45

Of separate entity

vid1-25:46

R: Would possess? Where would that entity come from? What would it be? I have no real information on that. They are there as we know. And for centuries there have been formulas written down for the method of getting rid of 'em and they're not parts of our personality. There are parts find a way of getting into your mind and not getting out. And consequently it may ruin your social system. I mean your social relationships, it may ruin a marriage or ruin friendships. And the motivations, of course are unclear on part of the entity. Yes. What are the circumstances?

vid1-26:41

R: Well, we are ignorant in that respect because we presume that God's control. See the presumption, the presumption that almost every religion makes is that God is in control. If he is in control, how does it come? He allows an innocent person to suddenly become possessed and chew their tongue off or do something disastrous. See? Yes, that have something to do with karma. Karma, karma is what I was talking about. When one guy gets these nose punched and then he finally gets punched and goes back and punches him back. That's karma. See? Yes. Saying that mental illness is possession

Speaker 9

vid1-27:32

Facts science, which dissects the brain, neurological

vid1-27:38

R: Lapses in people who have schizo brain, that their neurons aren't connected. I've read all about the neurotransmitters and they're not touching it, they're not touching it. The soul is not the brain. Modern psychology says that the brain is all we have and the brain has reactions and that's our personality showing itself is brain reactions. You'll find out that's not true, but you see the psychologists who are people waiting for a profession, so can people off for a hundred dollars an hour, they're going to concoct their own answer and that's their answer.

Speaker 7

vid1-28:26

Do you have a question that we might not have sold? That death might be absolute nothing forever. How dealt with

Speaker 6

vid1-28:32

That?

vid1-28:39

R: I am going to open this up. I didn't want to type too much time, but this is the relationship of the human soul to a thing that is called the absolute soul. Now, you can give other names to this, but this is the brain. See, this is the brain. Down here is the body and it's surrounded by what I call the Atman. This is the Atman. This is the human soul, the individual soul that walks with. He goes, it doesn't stay here, it stays with him in his body or close to his body. So it is detached from the eternal soul. And so this is what happens now when death occurs, this is where you find yourself, the body's gone. There is no death. There is no death, but there may be a dark period in which you don't know where you are. How did you develop that? Huh? How did you develop that surety? I went. I went over, and that's the only answer. I don't care who it is, how many books you have on religion or anything like that. You have to make the trip if you know it's over there. That's all. And a few people do some by accident, some by fighting for it for half of their lifetime and causing it to maybe help priding it into action, into visibility or something.

Speaker 9

vid1-30:23

The impression I get is that you retain a sense of individuality of the same person you all hear. You carry that over to having the physical body gone. Is that true with a whole bunch of other,

vid1-30:38

R: The truth of the matter is you may not even want to think about the body you left. That was what happened to me. I had no thoughts. I've often heard of stories of people that couldn't die peacefully because they had an infant child or something like that. And I watched my parents die and I wonder if they'll be ever be in contact again, that sort of thing. But I'm sure that if they experienced the same thing I get when they, as soon as they completely died, they wouldn't worry about the kids they left behind. Yeah.

Speaker 10

vid1-31:18

We were talking earlier about conflict. Do you think that the conflict and stress then are actually positive influences in helping people develop? And if that is the case, how come in some individuals go to such an extreme that it begins to cause problem?

vid1-31:33

R: You mean the conflict like confrontation would cause problems? Sure, sure, sure. If you argue with your wife for a while and she doesn't agree with you, she'll start screaming perhaps, but she'll survive. She'll survive. I mean, if you're telling the truth or you believe something sincerely, and this is all we know, we believe, and sometimes people other believe something sincerely, but if the person is not trying to logically work this out, but trying to take and force their mental picture onto somebody else, then they have to be the one that will see the foolishness of it. And sometimes this gets violent. I mean, people can fall on the floor and bite their tongue and Lord knows what else. And the result of before, they'll want to admit that they haven't thought the thing out. And this is the reason that I make the effort I do, is because people of their own do not try to go after the truth. They try to adapt society to their desires and they go where they can get favorable answers and they associate with people that flatter them. But that isn't the truth. See, and if you have a child growing up and he wants to live in there or she wants to live in a fairytale land and you let the child do it, then you'll live to regret it because the child will never be interested in being honest with people or honest with himself or herself. Do

Speaker 10

vid1-33:16

You see stress as being more of an offshoot of conflict and confrontation?

vid1-33:22

R: No. No. We are programmed at birth and long before birth and the genes that come down from the grandparents and everything else, we're programmed to enhance ourselves. We're programmed to control another person, male or female. The female wants to control the man. The man wants to control the female. So consequently, you're getting something now that is not even a discussion or approach to sanity, it's approach to two animals sparring for turf. See? So when they're confronted with that and they see it and it's much better attained, there's sometimes there's an attainment of wisdom in marriage because both parties like each other enough that they are not doing it to hurt. But they will say, Hey, you're observed, see? And after the other party finds out, they're observed, maybe both parties, you'll find out they're observed and then you can silently walk down the path together. But I don't think that we have to do everything somebody else believes just for to have a nice society. We will never have a nice society. I think for some reason it is made a bit rough. So we'd think,

Speaker 2

vid1-34:48

Is it better to confront yourself or have someone confront you?

vid1-34:52

R: You can confront yourself. You can confront yourself. And that's the reason I talk that little pamphlet on meditation is to think about the traumas, the people you hated, people you still hate. That's a good thing. You don't have to be that. It could be why you did something stupid five years ago or why you get fired and you'll get back and the information will come to you that possibly you were in the wrong or you didn't have a complete thing doped out correctly. See, and when that happens, when some of you, surely some of you people here have had that experience, once you can face the things that you've fouled up on, you're taller, you're free, you feel it physically free. See, and I'm talking from a personal account, an incident when I was a young boy grade school, there was a boy in the class that he was deformed, very strange looking boy. And I would look at him and grin because he looks a comic to his mother. He might look pathetic to me. He looked like this is something that belongs in the movies in the zoo. And he picked it up and punched me in the nose.

vid1-36:17

Well, he won. I could not punch him. So I swore I'd get him. And I've always been a pretty determined person. So I thought, I'll wait until I get the chance. And I hit him with a 2x4 before whatever's necessary. And one day I was out on the farm sitting by myself and happened to come back to me and I thought to myself, I'm not putting myself in that guy's place. This is the error I made. What if I had his body and somebody come up to me and smirked or whatever, see? And I could have punched him. Maybe I'd have done the same thing. And then I realized that I was the louse, that all these years that I'd stuck in with this and was wanting to take action, I realized that this poor fella had a much harder row to hoe. And I was making it rough for him and I couldn't blame him.

vid1-37:16

R: So this is the way things solve themselves. But you have to have an open mind. And this is meditation. There was nobody else in the room. I just got to thinking about things that happened in the past. And if you've got a troubled mind, you'd go back in your past, go back, just run back through incidents and you'll pick 'em up. They'll pop out because everybody's got an unfinished agenda. See things that people have done to him and that sort of thing. Basically it was something that was descended on me because I was a Laos. I was a smart lec. See what I mean? And who wants to support or further the efforts of a smart al? So this is, and this of course, you'll hear this said in religion, we got to forgive people. No, you've got to analyze yourself. Then you can forgive people. You can say, I forgive him. Yeah, but you'll be talking under your breath maybe. See, maybe I'll get it. You had your hand up here. This idea of some

Speaker 8

vid1-38:21

People seems to advance towards this divine much better than others. And you think this is genetic, that some people can do this much more easily than other

vid1-38:30

R: People do. I wouldn't say it was, I wouldn't say it's genetic. I don't know why. And I wrote a poem one time, I've written some poetry, I think, I dunno if it's in the book out there, but the poem started off, I know not why I ever sought it unless my young heart caught the urge to love to gentle be and find out who I am. And that was the only thing that caused me to look is I was looking for the most important thing in my life because my family was dying, my grandparents were dying, my parents were dying. I knew that was up ahead. And of course you never think you're going to die, but sometimes that happens.

vid1-39:22

R: So I was just a relentless thing that I realized that life meant nothing. If I was going to go through life making the mistakes I made with that little boy in grade school, I was in trouble. I couldn't even figure out my own lifestyle. I couldn't even control my own lifestyle. I maybe spend 60 years correcting myself from some stupid thing after another. See, but I'm wondering why. So I go to church and I hear the preachers and I can't buy it. I can't buy it because I could see that they could take you into belief, but not proof. And I believe in proof. Yeah.

Speaker 8

vid1-40:02

But in your experience of going over, are you convinced that we only get one chance, that maybe some of these people haven't done this several times?

vid1-40:12

I don't believe people die. I don't believe people die. I think some people go into unconsciousness, but I don't believe anyone dies. Totally. Some of these folks further along

Speaker 8

vid1-40:20

On the gone through this more often than others, they have more experience than you can do.

vid1-40:28

R: I dunno. See, I'll be quite honest with you. A lot of people talk about reincarnation. I cannot remember anything previous. I cannot remember anything. And I know that there's people who do. I mean there's children. The reason I say I'm quite sure, because they look get little children occasionally, and the children will take the parents to another town and say, this is where I lived. See, this is in India. They had a case like that, a little girl. And there's more than one case. See? So I don't doubt that we lived before. You're not uncomfortable with that idea. You just, I'm not uncomfortable with anything. It's the truth. And if there's evidence brought on anything, I'm say that's what you listen to, not prejudice, but evidence. See, you had it.

Speaker 1

vid1-41:21

Something that I've noticed through my life is that like with the martial arts, for instance, but there are fighters and then there are warriors. The fighters don't put any feeling at all, but they don't try to flow or creating art. But yet the warriors are the ones who sit there off to the side after they've had their sparring matches or whatever, and they'll paint or they'll create poetry and stuff. Some is very, very beautiful. But how can they destroy it and yet create at the same time,

Speaker 6

vid1-41:49

Destroy.

Speaker 1

vid1-41:50

How can they destroy at one point

vid1-41:53

R: And create another point? I don't know. I don't understand that myself. But of course when you get down to basics, what is destroyed, who dies? See, sometimes we plow under a city to build something more beautiful.

Speaker 8

vid1-42:11

I have two questions about truth. Can you tell when someone's telling the truth? And how do you tell when someone's telling the truth or what is truth?

Speaker 6

vid1-42:21

R: Truth is the most probable of all considerations in regarding a word or a situation. But truth is honesty with yourself. I believe if the traffic cop stops you on the corner and says you were speeding and weren't you, and you can say, no, that's all right. You weren't speeding. That's a lie. But you're defending yourself. And in other words, we don't know the police department to pursue our spiritual work with everybody that we touch. Let the cop get his enlightenment someplace else. I take,

Speaker 2

vid1-43:08

Are you a positive positivist?

Speaker 6

vid1-43:11

R: I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 2

vid1-43:14

How do you feel about positive

Speaker 6

vid1-43:15

R: Negatively? (laughter)

Speaker 2

vid1-43:21

I have a question. You like

Speaker 9

vid1-43:23

Truth, but then again, you address things through spirituality and possession. There's no scientific proof of anything like that.

vid1-43:37

R: Oh, I think there is even a few psychologists that admit that there's things such as possession. Just like we were speaking here before, there are people that are born that remember a previous life. That means that there's something is still possessing their head. See, of course, it may be in the case of a real previous incarnation that there's nothing violent there. But at the same time, you might have, let's say a traumatic nerve, a sheath, nerve sheath that is damaged. I knew a fellow who had epilepsy and he came on him when he is a grown man about 30 years of age. And of course, sometimes it starts with children. It's inherited characteristics sometimes. And the kids will get it when they're about two. And they used years ago, call it eclampsia. But when they got older, they took more violent spells. And when they got into their sex period life, it really became strongest then.

vid1-44:39

R: So there's no doubt about it that they were, it's now natural action. But there's cases very similar to that where the person never had an epileptic spell as a child, but out of a clear blue, he would become like epileptic or he'd do something violent. And a number of these writers have written upon, of course, the churches all believe in possession and casting out devils, I don't quite go along with the idea that they're devils. I think they're possibly guys like Ted Kennedy or somebody that couldn't steal everything he wanted to, and finally decided to come back the next time, make up for what he lost. But whatever it is, it's the next human spirit. I'm joking now, but whatever it is, it is a separate personality. And sometimes these entities will give information, speak in Latin, speak in foreign languages. The person uttering it doesn't know. What you want to do is if you're concerned about this, get books on it. There's a lot of them that there was an exorcism by, what was his name?

vid1-46:11

R: I can't remember. Exorcism and possession. But there's a good bit of this stuff out if you want to look into it and are authoritative things. And then on top of that, there's history. For instance, to give you an example, all through history, there's even a tribe. A tribe of Indians had one of their members that could exercise. If you read the literature, get back into the literature of those primitive peoples. They had a method of exercising them. And different nationalities or different religions had different beliefs about it. But the one thing they had in common that this was a personality, a complete personality, infringing coming in, speaking through your mouth. See, now I'm going to give you an example. Who was it mentioned this first, we kept talking about this. There was a movie came out here on the line of Blavatsky's [check] book possession. It was a possession, you know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 5

vid1-47:19

Ex

vid1-47:20

R: The Exorcist? Yeah. I was in West Virginia at the time and I had a friend in DC in Washington that knew I was interested in getting data on this. So when it came out, it came out in the Washington paper that this boy had become possessed and things that did to try to cure him. They brought in a Presbyterian minister. Incidentally, blady put a little girl in it because he wanted to get people to view something and were morbid minded. And something crude about a little girl will attract more minded people. And about a little boy perhaps, see, and some of the stuff that went on, it wasn't in the book incidentally see. And I thought it was really scraping the bottom of the barrel to get a point across the way the people made the movie. But it was a little boy and the Presbyterian minister knew the family and he told him he'd come over and sleep with the boy. The kid was up all night, I guess. So he came over and what happened was something threw him out of bed, physically through the minister, out of bed. The teacher, preacher. Yeah. Now this means that this is something dealing with material. It's not a concept of mind, it's not a hangup. It means that this has capacity for dealing with material, physical things and tossing them around.

vid1-48:57

The preacher gave up.

vid1-48:59

R: He quit after he got thrown out. A couple of times he quit. So while he was home, different people would come in, doctors would come in, and the mother made a remark one day when in the midst of his fit, she said, Sarah, leave the boy alone. Sarah was her sister who fondled the kid when he was little. And she died. She had died shortly before he started taking these spells. This is the real story behind us. You can't get it from Vlad's book. You have to go get the Washington Post. In 1949, I think it was. It happened. So they sent him off to Kansas. I think the boy went out to Kansas to, there were two priests out there, a Catholic priests that were capable of casting out these spirits. So the boy was antagonistic. He wasn't cooperative. So of course, I dunno how many of you saw the picture, those scenes about this little girl vomiting. That didn't happen. That was all nonsense. The only thing happened, they took him in front of the priest and while he was standing there, the priest took out his mal rum. That's the book. You know what it is?

Speaker 9

vid1-50:31

The witches hammer.

vid1-50:32

R: Yeah. And proceeded to read the formula for exorcism. A kid walked right up to him, put his hand on the book, and his finger on the book and the book dis into confetti, fell of the floor. See, they tried to get ahold of him. They got ahold of the boy and he kicked one of the priests in the groin. He was pretty agile. See? But they stayed with it. And after a period of time, they got him free. And so that was the thing, but it wasn't dramatic enough for Platy or the people in Hollywood. So they made a real scenario out, but he eventually did get cured of it. So the only reason I'm saying this, don't deny things because you don't like to hear them, because there are things that we don't have an answer for them. And this one fellow I knew that was an epileptic, he said that his cause his trouble was caused by an injury to a nerve sheath.

vid1-51:43

R: And he said he believed that. And of course this is just a concept now. He believed that we're pretty much insured, that whoever designed this body took precautions that certain things couldn't get in germs, poisons and this sort of thing or something from another dimension or something we couldn't see. But under certain conditions it could get in. And this is the reason, one of the reasons that nearly every Christian religion, and perhaps I don't know the details of all other religions on the face of the earth, but nearly all of them advise a very strict spiritual life if you don't want to be bothered. So consequently, there's a lot of people that believe that you can prevent it and if you can't prevent it, but what do we read from it? We read that somehow Aunt Sarah was dead, but she went back, wanted to continue doing things she had done before. That was all. And her method of doing it was seizing the boy through his nervous system. She just seized. He took spells. Yes.

Speaker 8

vid1-53:00

You've talked of possessions and spirit so far.

Speaker 9

vid1-53:04

You've been talking about possessions and

Speaker 6

vid1-53:06

Yeah,

Speaker 9

vid1-53:06

And I don't know a whole lot about zen, but for some reason I felt that with Zen, they don't deal with spirits in the supernatural and all that. It's just a whole different thing.

vid1-53:18

R: That's what I was saying, the confrontation. This confrontation. And they asked a guy one time, but how he cured Philip was either possessed or epileptic. And he said, I continue to question him until he quits. See? And that's the zen technique for everything to bring about the supreme mental state that you need. In other words, what we're doing is 24 hours a day we're wrapped up in not in facts or not in our definition. We don't define ourselves. People don't know who they are. And it seems like it's impossible because very few people ever find out who they are. In other words, they know they're a body, but they don't know if they have a soul. They're not defined. See. So consequently, I think that there's nothing wrong with studying the ways and means to clean the house if somebody breaks in, see or to prevent people from something, from breaking in,

Speaker 7

vid1-54:26

That kind of thing. Being thought with sort of like a biological unconscious where it's just material materially based. Whereas something that is positive, spiritually based, the so-called negative influences can only approach to the biology of a person.

Speaker 6

vid1-54:46

R: I can't tie that together. I can't tie that together. I know that right now they're worrying with the new road transmitters and this stuff. We was listening to a tape the other day about, what was that? Encephalitis? Reis. He had encephalitis. What was the guy's name that wrote that book? Sachs. And I could see that they're fishing desperately to try to identify all of this stuff with the body, with materials. And I mean, watching a movie like an Exorcist seems to make it tap

Speaker 7

vid1-55:24

Into a collective kind of thinking that gives more people to watch. That show gives more power

Speaker 6

vid1-55:31

R: And collective unconscious. Well, I wouldn't say that because there was very few people that saw these things that ever saw them or believed in them. And yet that entity had power enough to crack into that child or into an adult. There's lots of people manifest possession. There's a lot of them. Too much alcohol. You'll see people that will get completely out of character. Can you talk about your enlightenment experience? Well, if you ask me questions, I'll answer them, but I don't like to spend a lot of time what? That was a question. Is that a no? You're not going to talk about

Speaker 8

vid1-56:16

It happen when you were 30 years old. What preceded it and what was the experience?

vid1-56:23

R: I heard Augie talking about the fact that it happened. I said that's true. And I spent the rest of my time trying to write it to explain what happened and how possibly a person might be able to duplicate it. See, of course, it's impossible to duplicate, get a formula for people to duplicate so that when it happens, they're always different. Everybody I've met, other people were enlightened and the story they told was altogether different of the process they went through. I could run through some one of 'em. For example, this was a fellow that, there was a fellow, he was in the Air Force and he was fighting the Japanese and he was bombing cities and he was a devout Christian. And he read the Bible and thought that that's where he found the truth. So stick to the Bible. But he got to thinking after he had blowed several thousand people up on those cities over in Japan, and he says, where's God? Why did God permit this? The Bible says God observes the fall of the spiral. Where was he when a thousand people fell? See, so the result, he got to talking to himself and they saw how he was worried, troubled. So they gave him a leave of absence for arrest and realization thinking that he'd get over it. So he went back.

File vid2

Time: 1 hour

Speaker 1

vid2--00:00

R: Back. He was from Texas in San Antonio, and he went back to San Antonio. That's where I met him, in fact. [Correction: Rose met Paul Wood in Akron at Bob Martin's house.] And he had a wife, had a wife before he left, and some small children. So he goes back and his wife threw him out. She couldn't live with him because she thought he was acting crazy. So he went and got a job. He had a job, but it was very difficult for him to hold a job even because his answer wasn't, he didn't get his answer. He had put his whole life on Christianity and the belief that whatever the Bible said was right. See, so why didn't God stop the bomb? The same as he watched the fall of the sparrow. Why take care of a sparrow be considered when he didn't care about a thousand people? He's still got the problem. He hasn't solved. And this is what the mind is with everything. We face stuff. And rather than say, Hey, that might not be true, let's go and iron this out that we find it is true or not. That's the way you do it. Don't try to build for belief.

vid2-01:08

R: That's the point. Well, anyhow, he said that he got a job in as a salesman and a dealer, automobile dealership. And he said that he was always uneasy, he was troubled, and it was just got so heavy that one day he said he put his head down on the desk and prayed for God to kill him. He wanted to get out. If couldn't have peace of mind. He wanted to be dead. He passed out. He was a week in the hospital a week or 10 days. He said in those 10 days he traveled all over the country and all different periods of time, he would be walking down the street and he would describe the battle of Gettysburg.

vid2-01:58

R: When we talk about enlightenment, there's different reactions, people have different reactions. And finally he came to peace with himself that he decided he wasn't going to worry anymore. He was going to do the work that he was set out for, and that was to bring people to the same realization that he had. So of course he didn't stay in San Antonio. He moved up into Oklahoma on a farm and everything. He didn't worry about eating. He said sometimes he'd go without food, but it didn't bother him and he didn't have transportation. One day I fell, drove up and gave him a secondhand car and I saw it. It was a pretty nice car. But he said, those that serve God, he said will be taken care of. And I'm convinced of that. So I'm not worried about that. But this experience this man had was that he could see anything that he wanted to at any time in history. A little slice of that happened to me when I was over there. I noticed that I could see anything that I wanted to, but I didn't desire to see anything. I was having too much exhilaration from being where I was, knowing that I was still alive and that sort of thing. Who was first? You go ahead.

Speaker 2

vid2-03:22

Can you be over there whenever you want?

Speaker 1

vid2-03:26

R: No, no, no. What I have is the memory of it. See? And the conviction, of course. In other words, if you come back to life, you're back in the storybook. This is a storybook. This is a bit of fiction. And we play it like a game.

Speaker 2

vid2-03:50

Can you travel to a specific point or, well, you want

vid2-03:54

R: I didn't. I didn't. While I was there. Of course. See, I don't, I know that he was in real trouble for a week before it happened. And with me, I didn't have that. I was very quick. I had a pain in the top of my head and I thought, how's in Seattle, Washington? And I thought, here I go. And I don't know anybody in Seattle that's in a hotel and sitting up. I used to, I'd get into a town if I was bored or something. I took a job there, in fact. And that time on my hands, I'd get out of the library and get a book on yoga or something and read it. And I was sitting there and I'd do all these, everything they said to do in yoga, breathing exercises. And I tried everything that was advised. See? So this particular time, well, when I'd sit on the bed, I'd sit on top of the bed and lean against the headboard because I don't think there was too many chairs in my room. I can't remember using a chair. But that's the way of doing it. I'd happen to be sitting there and this pain hit. Well, I thought I'm going to, this is going to be it. And then I found myself someplace else. I found myself.

vid2-05:16

R: I knew where I was. And now I don't want to get into this too deeply because it'll provoke questions. I don't want to answer questions of how many angels I found on the head of a pin. See things of that sort. But that's basically what happened. But then as I said, I was, nothing mattered to me. I mean, the thing is, I a little embarrassed by it in a way because I remembered when I came back, I thought, geez, I had no concern at all for my family. Didn't bother me a bit. Cut off from them. I think it's laid up. No, this has it. You have your hand up.

Speaker 3

vid2-06:05

You said that all of this didn't really exist. And so my question is, I presume that something else does exist. Well, how do you

vid2-06:18

R: Sense that? Can you sense that Now when you're in that position in which this place is fiction, you can create any fiction that you want. That's a thing. And that's is what happens. And I've got a few notes here. I hope we have time to go through some of 'em on the ability to learn this. You can learn this business of causing things to happen. And I'm going to shift now. What time is it? What time? We have to be out of here? 8 42 now. Huh? It's 8 42 now. Yeah. I dunno if we have any time restrictions. Huh? Anybody know? We don't have any time. As long as your hold, long as your voice hold. Well, yeah, I'll just get a little horse. That's all. How many people here have heard of, what's this thing? Cause we use the word, I check my notes, I forget terms. It's synchronicity. Have you heard of synchronicity? What do you think it is? Basically? Do you think it is a cause that there's things caused to happen?

Speaker 4

vid2-07:52

Just that certain patterns are repeated throughout Experience? Yeah, there are certain patterns that happen more often.

vid2-08:02

R: Well, there's different, I picked up a little book by Alan Vaughn and it was on synchronicity, 1and I was somewhat amazed. First of all, I'd heard it for years. There was a fellow came to the farm. I have a farm down in West Virginia, and he was staying at the farm. He wasn't too stable. Why? I don't know. But he worried about psychic things and he got a dump truck and was hauling lumber and stuff for people. And I got into his truck one day and I said, your bearings, the bearings in the drive shaft are coming loose. He said, Mr. Rose, don't say that. And I said, why not? Well, he said, why did you say it? I said, because I've had old junk trucks when I was younger, and I know the noise. That's all. We didn't get two miles down the road. Boom, driveshaft broke.

vid2-09:15

R: Well, I thought, boy, if I ride with him, I'm going to have to keep my mouth shut safe. So we were on another trip, another trip after that. I never rode with him again. The second trip, the second trip, I looked at the tires and they were bare. One of 'em was. And I said, you sure we get this truckle, haul this with a bare tire? He said, would you please be quiet a few miles down the road? Now there's people here that witness this, that know about it. I'm not making it up. And we went to tower. I never rode with him again. I didn't want to disrupt his business whether I was doing it or not, but it was just, to me, it was no magic. I saw a tire was ready to blow, that's all I heard. A noise that I identified before. Okay. But he would always talk about synchronicity. And he thought I was using synchronicity to blow up his tires.

vid2-10:16

R: I picked up this book by a Vaughn the other day, and I got to looking through it. And it wasn't clear to me what synchronicity meant means synchronizing, things that synchronize. But under that category, there's a lot of stuff that they list. Extrasensory perception and synchronicity, psychokinesis, deja vu, prophetic dreams. You have a prophetic dream, meaning the person dreams. One of the famous mediums, a few years back, Eileen Garrett saw the a durable fall out of the sky days before it fell or simultaneous. She was in England. This durg, I think collapsed plane collapsed in France and some people got killed. It kind of put her on, made her famous because she was a seer. And of course she's also an author, the Oracles of Delphi, precognition, unconscious foreknowledge like somebody going into a trance or something. And Kessler Kessler wrote a book called A Roots of Coincidence. And that's what it was largely about. And I'm reading this because I couldn't remember all these things because I wanted to get an exact definition of synchronicity because synchronicity seemed to match some of my experience. And I thought I could get enough instances to indicate what was going on in these people had it.

vid2-12:16

R: Kessler makes a strange statement. Consciousness creates space, time, and matter. The artfully contained coincidence of life's are just that contrived by our consciousness as is the rest of our life. Now if you can interpret that statement, what he's saying is that a planet was made by mind to not just human minds. That there's a mind stuff. And I read some books years ago saying, I'm taking these for a fact that they have to be believed. But when you read, when you're studying a certain subject, you read it and then you can decide later whether you don't believe everything you read. But in a spiritualistic movement, they decided to categorize the planes of after death experience. And they were the astral plane, the etheric plane, and the causal plane and a couple more, which important. But what interested me was this causal plane. So they believed that when a person got into that plane, you could do anything. You could create anything you wanted. So if this is true, mine from another superior advantage can create things on this earth, maybe even the earth. See? So what happens? One thing I know that when I was standing on this hilltop in this far away place, I saw no planets that's on no sun.

vid2-14:06

R: But we get back to this synchronicity. What does this stop us? You read enough of this stuff and you come to the conclusion there might be a formula here. There must be a formula. So how do you work it? I noticed some things about my life that caused me to get another view, another view on it. One is that I was able, when I was a child, to see people before they died, when they were dying, when they were going to die. I mentioned to your gie, did the details maybe about when I was 12 years old, I went away to a seminary and my mother took me up to the church and there was a priest there. I'd say he's about 45, 50 years of age, and I couldn't take my eyes off of him. I kept watching him and she made the arrangements and obvious supposed to get on a bus and go up to Pennsylvania to the seminary.

vid2-15:16

R: See? And I walked out with my mother and I said, father Phillips's going to die. She said, shut up. He was sacred. He didn't talk that way about you priest. He died in a week. And I used to go past people's houses and smell flowers. I'd stop and write the number down. I'd find out later that somebody in the house died. Now these are like synchronistic events that I'm somehow able to function in two areas at once. See? Or it's a combination of the smell. Maybe the smell didn't even exist. Maybe it's a metal thing that's translating an indoor odor or something like that. But this kind of stuck with me that certain times things would happen.

vid2-16:10

R: And I noticed that if you do things by holding your mind a certain way, you can accomplish them. I'm going to give you an account of I got sick one time not too long ago, and I didn't think I was going to recover. So to get my mind off my sickness, I went down to a beer joint about as far as I could walk, in fact. And I got in there and they got to playing cards and I lost some money because I wasn't watching what I was doing. I just killing time. And they were running the ante up all the time. It started with a nickel and a dime and a quarter and a dollar. And first thing you know, I got about a thousand dollars in the poker business. So I decided that I was just going to call everybody. If they didn't have me beat showing I was going to call 'em, I wouldn't bet, but I'd call 'em.

vid2-17:02

R: So everything changed. I got so confident that in draw poker, I would call for cards and get them exactly face up. I'd tell 'em, don't put 'em down, turn 'em up, face up. See, and I'll give you an example. I know how many play poker, but in this particular case they called it low card wild. The lowest card in your hand was wild. So that if you had a pair of threes and you got a deuce, you had three threes. But if you had a pair of threes and four kings, you had five kings. But catch a deuce, you've only got a full house perhaps if you only had two kings and that deuce was below the three, that's a low card. Wow. So consequently, if you call for cards and you need a high card, unlucky, the chances are you won't get it. And I remember I called, I had a queen, two queens and a jack, and I kept the jack.

vid2-18:02

R: It is a picture card. So I said to the dealer, give a queen and a jack, he threw it over, queen and jack. I had people get up and eat the cards, actually eat the cards. And I'd tell 'em, don't bet. I'd say, don't bet I got your beat. No, no. They thought I was bluffing, but I wasn't good at bluffing. That's the reason I told the truth. I'd show it they was reding my reading my face before. See, and they knew when I had a winner, I'd get bright eyed and they would drop out and I wouldn't get anything when I had a good hand, but I was indifferent. So I saw a tremendous lot of these things happen.

vid2-18:43

R: I believe I can't help but believe that people here have had them happen. Things that were indescribable, something would happen and you'd feel that. The thing number one is that it's not possession. I would clean up the table and I go over, we'd go over to a high, there was an all night restaurant over there, and I'd take all these guys I played poker with and buy 'em a steak dinner at one o'clock in the morning because I didn't want their money, but I couldn't stop it. I got my money more than what I'd lost in the previous days. Now, this was just a state of mind I got into.

vid2-19:26

R: First I was afraid I was going to lose, so I lost. And then I didn't care whether I lost or not. So I start winning. I think the reason I'm saying this, that perhaps you've had things like that yourself. You'll have moments in which you feel I can't miss see, but if you brag about it, boom, believe me, it goes. Now why these are factors sounds like superstition, but I've seen it working too many times. One of these incidents in Vaughan's book was interesting. He describes a piece in which Edgar and Poe wrote about a boy that was eaten on board a ship. And his name was say, Jimmy Carter, just pick a name. And this occurred in PO's story in 1838. And he said the kid was killed and eaten aboard ship 12-year-old boy. And his story, it was a fiction in 1884, they had a ship left, one of the port's here, and they run a ground on an island or something and they eat a 12-year-old boy by the name of Jimmy Carter.

vid2-21:00

R: It was almost like gro and PO had seen this ahead of time, unconsciously. He didn't deliberately know there was a boy by the name of Carter going to be eaten. But somehow his unconscious mind, the conscious mind searching for names would've absolutely picked something else. But being unconscious. He happened to pick the right name. I mean they were indifferent. Let's say a high state of indifference. Everybody knows Eileen Garrett, perhaps You ever hear that name? Eileen Garrett. She wrote a few books. She came into this country and tried to put a publishing, started publishing outfit up in New York. And she wrote one of to publish all the strange books about elves and ferries and superhuman spiritual occurrences and this sort of thing. And she also put out a magazine. But anyhow, she's a well-known author and she had been a medium and somebody asked her, how do these things work? How do you do this? And I copied it pretty much verbatim what she said.

vid2-22:08

I only do it successfully in a state of high dalliance dalliance indifference. See what I mean? And when she was in that state, then her mediumship was accurate. I want to tell you some of the other things that happened down at the place down at the farm. We were building a building and the boys were pulling some. We had oak logs 24 feet long, which we had owned out with a chainsaw to make beams out of them, to hold a roof up. And an oak is about a board. Foot of oak is about seven pounds a foot an inch. Bo elbow is around seven pounds. You take 48 of those and 12 inches thick and you got a bit of weight. So I came down and was using an old pair of rope blocks to take them up about 30 feet in the air, put the ridge a ridge beam in.

vid2-23:13

And I looked at the rope and I said to him, if I was you, I wouldn't depend on that rope to hold that thing up in the air. And I turned around and walked away and it fell. The rope broke and fell. I had to watch what I said then because everything I said, David, jeez, he's going to kill us one of these days. The same fellow had the truck had this axle go out. He was standing on the back porch one day and it had a billy goat tied out in the fence, see, had a light on a wire. And he said, the billy goat hollered for help. And I said, nonsense. I heard animal it's making noise. And he said, no. I said, the goats can't say. He said, but he said, help. So I went out and the goat was tangled all up and he was making a noise, but didn't sound like help. But see, he believed these things. I don't know if to him it sounded like help or not, but it meant it filled the bill. And I've run into this stuff all the time. So what are we getting at? We're getting at the possibility. The thing behind this is that what can we do with this? What can we do with this synchronicity?

vid2-24:37

If that's perfected, if that can be perfected and you can cause things to happen. You've got a powerful mental instrument and what can you do with it? What would you do with it? If you had it, you'd probably say, well, I want to pick up the right book. I want to pick up the right book, or I want to run into the right person. Or I want to create a situation in which I'll know the answers on this. And of course I'd say there probably has to be some sort of challenge for you to make a decision in. But I believe that this happens as a result of a spiritual experience with some people. I think it comes naturally. So consequently, my point is that if you can pick up that sometime, pick up this Alan Vaughn's book, you'll get the impression down the road that you can, to some degree, you're not going to move mountains, but there are things that are done.

vid2-25:45

See Edward Bulwer-Lytton for "vril" , The Power of the Coming Race

One of LE's book, she talks about the word Vril. Have you ever heard that Vril was the art of the ancient people used to move stone own to cut big. You get out of the pyramid mids in Egypt, and these are huge blocks as there, and they are cut to precision. There's only one eighth inch of mortar and it's still in there what they put in it. And it looks like dental cement. It's a bureau fine. It looks like general cement. We have no idea exactly how they did it. But in Tibet, I saw this on television, I'd heard about it before and I thought, oh, this could be nonsense. But I heard that they had a method of lifting rock in Tibet with these big long horns they have. And they showed this one time on the tv, on the film. And what they did, they get a bunch of people with the horns and they get a few monks chanting, and you'd see this, they have a rope up on the cliff.

vid2-26:45

R: They had no road to get up there. They're building a monastery up there and pulling these big stones up. They looked like they'd be about five feet square. They had a cable or rope pulling it up. The next thing you'd see, they just take 'em up the slack when it would raise a little bit. And they kept blowing those horns. Now, this could have been a real con job. I mean it could have been a faked film or whatever, but I feel that the mind can be under certain conditions that powerful. And so consequently, I think that this is what a person has to do if they want to do anything with their mind is to work. Don't say, Hey, I'm going to go in there. I've had people say this to me. I'm going to give this one year, and if I'm not enlightened in a year's time, I'm leaving and some of I'm dead. You can't do that. It's almost like, let's take the possibility that there's a deity listening. And he says that guy's in fighting. I don't want him something of that sort. But that's a conclusion you can draw that there's a force that he runs. Contrary to his thing is you fight without any promise. You fight for this or death. And if you have that determination, I'm sure that you can make it. And once you make it, you'll get corroborations. You'll have little things that you can do that'll surprise you. Just like these.

vid2-28:26

Seeing people that I've had several people knew they were going to die because just because of an odor in a room or something. Yeah, go ahead. How common would you say it's for people to achieve this experience? Or how many people have you met in your lifetime to gone over?

vid2-28:46

R: I've met, I've met Paul Wood in Florida [No, Akron], which is the only person that I've really talked to outside of his zen master that I knew in Massachusetts, not Connecticut, I think it was in Connecticut. Yeah, right near New York City. Those are the only two that I know for sure could do whatever they wish with a human mind. But I have corresponded with people that I'm quite sure that they had superior experiences, didn't know how to teach it, didn't know how to go about telling somebody else how to arrive at it. And the simple formula is just make up your mind. In other words, all of you people are pushing for something. You're ready to dedicate four years of your life to learn how to make money off of people other people see, and you'll go through a lot, believe me, in order to get that degree and what you'll think is a superior stand in life. And really, you'll find out that you were innocent when you were young, but when you graduated from college, you weren't. Some faculties have taken away. Yeah.

Speaker 2

vid2-30:06

Have you never been scared of not finding that what you were searching for, for example? Well,

vid2-30:13

R: I realized there was a chance. The chances against me finding it, I knew that was possibly a thousand to one, maybe more than that. I intended to do it until I died. That was all. I tend to go after it. But there's lifestyle. There's a lifestyle that's behind it. You have to live a certain way. You can't indulge all of your whims and sexual appetites and that sort of thing. Yeah. There's the power. The power you generate.

Speaker 6

vid2-30:43

What exactly are we talking about?

Speaker 1

vid2-30:45

Huh?

Speaker 6

vid2-30:45

What exactly are you talking about? Can you just cover it real briefly or is it a really in depth?

vid2-30:51

R: No, I can't tell you exactly what I'm talking about. I have to search as you see what I'm doing. I'm trying to search as it is to give you some idea of what happens and how you get there. But my case will not be your case. Everybody. I can't say stand on your head two hours a day, eat marmalade or drink cider or that sort of thing. And you're going to don't eat meat. Don't kill any low animals. That has nothing to do with it has nothing to do with it at all. But you'll devise a system for yourself that'll be accurate just by backing away from the foolish, backing away from the things that distract you. And don't think you can take your wife with you or your family with you. It's not going to happen. Or your children. One of the saddest things I have was I came back and I saw, I knew my children, what they would do with their lives very clearly.

vid2-31:57

R: It was at one time that I re-experienced the thing very quickly, and it was in that period that I saw my son as being totally impossible spiritually. That's pretty hard to take because you love your family, so there's no common language. Your case, if you're interested in it, your case will be different from anything else. And when you come through it, you'll agree with a whole lot of stuff that's written in the spiritual manuals and all that sort of thing. He'll say, yes, there's been some people doing some good thinking, but it's vague when it gets translated and retranslated a few times. It gets to be political. I look upon the biggest part of the religions is political. I don't mean voting thing, voting politics, that sort of thing. But I mean, it is just like the guy in the army. He goes in, he wants to be a lieutenant or he wants to be a general, and you go into the religious business, you want to be a pope or you want to be the head honcho, whatever it is, whatever they call it. If someone dies without enlightenment, are they in danger

Speaker 6

vid2-33:08

If

vid2-33:08

R: They're, what?

Speaker 6

vid2-33:09

If someone dies without finding enlightenment,

vid2-33:12

R: Dies without it,

Speaker 6

vid2-33:12

Right? Are they in danger? Are they going to experience something bad or

vid2-33:17

R: Not bad? We are all stupid people. And this unreasonable to conceive that somebody with infinite intelligence is going to put a gun to our head and say, Hey, you either have the right answers, blow your brains out. Say or put you in hell. I don't believe in hell. There is no hell unless you get married. Sometimes I tell, yeah,

Speaker 2

vid2-33:44

There's no specific directions like drink, eat, mar related every day or your head. But there is our basic principles that stand behind it. Is this true

vid2-33:56

R: To do what?

Speaker 2

vid2-33:57

There are basic principles for a standard of living, for making it a lifestyle.

vid2-34:03

R: You mean in zen?

Speaker 2

vid2-34:04

Yeah.

vid2-34:07

R: Well, you would have to prove that to me. I'm asking you. Oh. Oh, I thought she said to worry. I thought she was making statements. I'm sorry. I'm asking the question. If you were studying with me, I would tell you how I thought you could do things. It would expedite, and some of them have to do with the loss of energy. Not to lose any energy. You need all of your energy to do this. You're going to walk through death, so you'll need some vitality. And there are things, the other thing is the truth. And I'm not saying that you have to be a fanatic and tell every policeman when you're doing one mile over the speed limit. See, that type of truth is not what we're talking about. We're talking about trying to find the reality behind life. What is this? Are we just animals moping around giving ourselves sensational ideas of life after death and sensational promises and sensational hopes and saying, all we have to do is believe, believe isn't dipped. You got to know. You got to know what you can do. Do

Speaker 6

vid2-35:19

You think western science never prove something like we incarnation do technology, perhaps technology.

vid2-35:28

R: I don't have any idea that western science could do that. I'll tell you what I've done though. I've done quite a bit of work with hypnosis trying to do that. And strangely, I have to be honest with you, I've never could get the one back to the day before birth. And this is where you have to go. And there's been other people, it's worked with it, but I've taken people back. You take 'em one year at a time or one year at a time. I remember this one party, I took 'em through high school from, if they were in college, I'd get their memory and say, what do you see now? What is this? This is 1992. I say, let's on the 7th of October, 1990, where were you? What do you remember? And nine chance out 10, they'd say, well, I was in college and I was doing something.

vid2-36:29

R: Or I'd say, maybe they can't remember the exact dates. So well, okay, in 1980, who was your teacher in school? How would I know? Let's say? And yet they would start and remember. And then by getting the grades that they could remember, like 18 89, 19 89, they'd remember the teacher and I'd just take them back and they'd tell who was sitting in front of them, who was sitting on the other side of them. And so you get 'em clear back to year one when they're 1-year-old and say, now we're going to get back another year from today. See? And where are you? What do you see? See? But I was very successful in clearing people's heads up because I remember this one, it was a friend of my wife's, and she's a good subject. She also had been injured in an automobile accident and had epileptic spells as the result of it.

vid2-37:30

R: And so I put her to sleep and started her back through the grade high school, who's the teacher? And she'd tell me, she sat my math teacher. That's my So going back. But we did it for hours getting back. Then I woke her up and I said, okay, who was your teacher in the first, second, third grade? Or say third grade? And she'd say, I don't know. What do you expect me to know that for? I find clear up into the seventh and eighth grade. She knew maybe one teacher at the head of the class, something like that. And I'd say, was it Mr. So-and-So? Yes. How did you know? I said, I'll tell you later. How about this other grade? Who was the boy sitting in front of you? She'd say, geez, I can't remember that stuff. I said, Johnny, so-and-so. Yeah. How did you know?

vid2-38:24

Well, I told her after a while. I said, you told me under hypnosis. So she was telling me that I went through this routine to see if she's telling me the truth or the facts or I was missing, see getting missing. But the thing was that it scared her a little, but I knew she was L at ease. And I thought to myself, I got to do something for her. She's helped me in this bit of research. And suppose we'll give her a suggestion that she's not going to have epileptic spells. Well, under hypnotic procedure, you don't say somebody's not going to have something. You have to phrase that in a positive manner. And you say, you will be free of the epileptic spells from now on. So it was good for a year. She never took a spell for a year because my wife was able to keep track of her. And a solid year, I don't know how far beyond that, but for a solid year that we kept track of her, she never had a spell. So you can do a lot of good things while you're carrying on your research and on reincarnation, that sort of thing.

Speaker 6

vid2-39:29

Would you say the best path to enlightenment is just

vid2-39:32

Increasing your awareness of everything yourself?

R: You search, and then in your process of your search, the first thing you do is establish a ways and means committee. Ways and means, ways and means. That means how many hours you're going to spend, where you're going to do it, what things you're going to concentrate on, what efforts you're going to put out. Are you going to be celibate? Are you going to be horsing around? Okay, you're going to put your whole self in it. So if you're going to put your whole self on it, you're going to be celibate.

vid2-40:06

See, and you can always have the ambition and the desire to know the truth about everything, but if you keep postponing it by every act of sex, well, you might be 90 years old before you really don't need sex anymore. You might get the answer, who knows? But that's the ways of me. This is the reason down through the age is people got into aesthetic practices. Asceticism in itself is saying, all of my energy's going in this direction. No other direction. See, no booze, no cigarettes. Don't burn your lungs out. You need your body see to survive. It's a battle you're in. That's just the beginning. But for men, you'll tell yourself what to do. You'll say, let's go to this. Let's read this book. Let's see what I can get out of this book. What can I get out of tit and Buddhism? What can I do? Maybe even a hypnosis, a lot of psychological work you can do with a group of people And consult people and consult people too incidentally, if a person's interested in that and they get into it and they want to call me on the phone, I'll respond. I'll tell you. I'll give you what advice I think is valid.

Speaker 2

vid2-41:35

I'm sure, of course, you've done a lot of meditation. What are your

Speaker 1

vid2-41:40

Experiences with internal energy? With what? Internal energy, internal energy this is?

R: Huh? I don't know anything about it. The character like this. Alright, I don't know. I know. How about when it's like this? Kundalini? Is that what you mean? Kundalini?

Speaker 2

vid2-42:00

I don't know.

vid2-42:01

R: See, these are words. This is the reason I'm talking plain. I'm talking plain. These are all things I presume that require absent. Absent. So control. See,

Speaker 2

vid2-42:14

That's how I go.

Speaker 1

vid2-42:18

When you aren't ab too much, you lose your achieve. When you do that, you lose your achieve, you lose your abstinence. Right? Well, that's alright if you want to call it that. See, I don't have any proof of that. The word, I was just curious what had not abstinence. I can't do anything about she because I never met the man. Yeah.

vid2-42:46

Well, that's what you get. Basically, the only thing is the energy goes up instead of down. Should the person be concerned with safety in doing this? Should it be with a group of people who know what they're doing? The person, I believe that if you ever attempted to go into a trance by yourself, you should have some company. You should have somebody that knows what to do. See, and that party then can bring you out of it. But I don't think, see, the strange thing was I believe that I was sent to Seattle on a fool's errand. I went out there to get married. That's the fact of the matter. It was a sour deal. So I went back to the hotel room and started reading the books in the library about yoga and that sort of thing. And that's when it happened. I was at peace with myself.

vid2-43:38

R: I was tickled to death that this girl turned me down because I was free once more. But the thing was that I had nobody to call. There was nobody in that town that I could call for help. And I was sure not going to disturb my family, my parents, because they would just go bonkers trying to figure out how to get to me. And so I just canceled it out. But what was happening anyhow, I couldn't stop it. And I often thought, you're put in a position where you can't run because you have to die. You have to go through the death and the death is hell. Its you're facing the thoughts of extinction are not too easy to sit with. That's all. Yeah.

Speaker 5

vid2-44:28

Is spirituality or the of your energy, is that more than, say if you're following a career or how would you balance the two? You're looking to be a functional person, do a

Speaker 1

vid2-44:44

Certain thing,

Speaker 5

vid2-44:44

But you're also looking

vid2-44:46

R: No, no, I don't. Do not try to be a functional person. No. I do a lot of things, but I don't have any plans. I'm going to give you an example. We have a group in Columbus, Ohio, and there was always, one boy was appointed as a monitor. I went up to give a talk and there was two men come in, were, well, one of 'em had been in the group for a long time and he had dropped out and started another group up and they were trying to put me on the spot. So they would come in with the tablets and it was like legal tablets, yellow paper. And I was going to ask me the questions and get there to prove me wrong by my own tricks. And so he said to me, Mr. Rose, how are we going to tie this together with a marriage and social life and profession?

vid2-45:45

I said, you don't tie it to anything. This is the most important thing. And that's what you do. So he's married, he's got several kids. See, I presume the man with him was too. And I said, you know this yourself. You've been around that long. This is not something that you bargain with as much as to say, well God, I'll give, if you give me enlightenment within two years, well then I'll work for you for four. Maybe I'll get out and preach on the corner or something for four years. No, that doesn't work that way. You fight your way through the rocks or whatever it is.

Speaker 6

vid2-46:24

Why does sex seem to be an obstacle in everyone's road? True you mean?

R: No, you never sensed that. Pardon? You've never sensed that. You think?

Speaker 6

vid2-46:34

Yeah. I'm asking why does that one thing seem to be a distraction? Somebody tell me. What is it about it that makes it so powerful in that sense?

Speaker 1

vid2-46:53

R: Well, your function is reproduction, producing fertilizers for the earth. You have no children. Once you raise your children, you'll find, you'll think, that's my kid. Oh, what a beautiful baby. 20 years later you'll say, what the hell is this? And you realize you've been a door. You're a door through it. That child comes and that love for the child is nature. Female cats. We got a female cat back on a farm now she's got two second set of kittens in about two months, and she thinks she's important. That cat, her whole being is into surviving herself while bringing in meat enough to make milk for those kittens. She loves them. So

Speaker 6

vid2-47:46

That's one big natural obstacle.

vid2-47:49

R: So what happens is she's tied to that. She's tied to that. That's all. And that's the reason I say try to get whatever knowledge you can get before you get hung up. Because every marriage will have a situation that can stop you. I'll tell you a little story, to give you an example, going driving to Pittsburgh to give talks like this in Pitt and Duquesne and some places like that. And there was a guy riding with me. In fact, sometimes he'd drive me a little Volkswagen, we'd drive it. It was cheaper on gas and one day he didn't show up. We'd meet and we'd park our cars in the parking lot of A&P store and we'd drive ride together. One day he didn't show up, and I knew his wife, his young fellow had just got married. I knew his wife was not, she didn't approve of what he was doing because she was devout Catholic.

vid2-48:54

And she thought anything else would be maybe negative or the devil's work or something. And I could see the point, but I only saw her once and never talked to her. So he pulled up and he didn't show up. So I thought, well, he's done. He's not coming. And so I stopped at the A&P store anyhow, I thought, well, I'll wait if he was here, he come, he showed up. That was the next week. So he got in, he wasn't talking. He was a little ashamed of himself for not having an excuse for being there the week before. And I turned and looked at him and I said, I'm going to tell you what happened. I said, the reason you didn't come last week, I said, your wife said, why do you have to go up there and you say, this is important to my spiritual work?

vid2-49:46

Well, she says, I'm stuck here with a baby and et cetera, et cetera, and I don't like to be alone. And he said to her, well, this is for my soul. I'm doing this to try to enhance my soul position, but if you insist I will sacrifice this search for my soul, for you and the child. And she says, I insist. See? And he looked at me and he was driving. He just turned halfway around and he said, that is exactly what she said. See, I never saw him again. I read in the paper later he became a chiropractor and went to Florida, moved down to Florida. But this is the reason that sex is not evil. You go out and this is what I did. I had a waterfall on the farm and I'd get down the waterfall and stand on ice and wash from the water. The shower was coming from the rock above, stood under a shower, a waterfall, and got washed. Never bothered me. I was always in good health. Never built a fire except to cook food in the winter.

vid2-51:03

I just throw a blanket around. I'd sit there and read half of the day and the night reading Blavatsky book or somebody's book, anything. Focus your mind back in, get your mind thinking along those lines. Yeah. Is fire walking explainable by the same Tmobile? Fire walking is explained by the same thing as this holding your mind a certain way. This is how that's done. In other words, you will feel you can do it. And if you push through and do it once, you'll be able to do it all the time. There was a fellow in up in Ohio that used to fire, walk on a fire. And we had him down to the farm one time to give a talk. And I was curious. I said, what state of mind are you in when you walk on that fire? And he said, he laughed. He said, I wasn't in any state of mind, I was drunk, but you got to pick this up. He was indifferent. He was totally indifferent. See? But since then though he doesn't get drunk. He can walk on it. And sometimes, what was he? He does these tricks where he lays on the bed of spikes and has somebody put weights on him and stuff. They don't touch him.

Speaker 5

vid2-52:25

Is the energy that you use sexually, the same energy that you use creatively, such as an art

vid2-52:31

Or something, if you're using it in the art, are I kind of think that some of the art I've seen, if it was done from sexual energy, they must've been very degraded sexually. I've never seen too much good art. They get away with it. They call it surrealism.

Speaker 5

vid2-52:51

Well, what I was thinking of is if you're using that energy up, like when you're doing the section using an energy,

Speaker 1

vid2-52:59

And so if you turn that energy towards spiritually, then of course it's easier, right? So if you're using it creatively, because it's still energy, if you're using, you think it'd help the painting, you mean, right? Oh, that's possible. You could focus better. You could focus better.

Speaker 5

vid2-53:14

Is that taking away from the, is it taking away from the spiritual

Speaker 1

vid2-53:17

R: If you're using, no, I don't think there's a quantum that we say that you're going to lose. It's a quality. The mind changes, the brain changes. The body gets immune. There's immunities build up. And sometimes there's things happen, as you might call them miraculous. I've had things happen, say, wow, wonder how that happened? Glad it happened. But the mechanics, I couldn't explain.

Speaker 2

vid2-53:46

If sex will decrease your energy, what can you do to increase it?

Speaker 1

vid2-53:53

A&P Well, you exercise. Exercise will increase your energy like running a couple miles. You should keep your body healthy. You should keep your body healthy. Yeah.

Speaker 2

vid2-54:07

Are we all talking about the same energy here?

Speaker 1

vid2-54:10

I don't know. You've got Latin words for it that I can't translate.

Speaker 7

vid2-54:14

I like to ask you if there is another mention to it in life, why there is so much way with the daily life once there is so many people who were so much involved in all the things that try to find that older

Speaker 1

vid2-54:32

Dimension. I don't quite understand you. Do you mean why are people trying to get ahead

Speaker 7

vid2-54:42

If there is another dimension, why there's so much obstacles, such a waste of

Speaker 1

vid2-54:51

Why all so much? What? Obstacles? Obstacles. I don't know. I agree.

R: This is like being trapped in a rat's nest. Yeah. Yeah. This is, no, I can't see anything beautiful about it. I can't see, sure. I've seen my wife's babies born and they're very beautiful. But these are unfortunate. A little beings brought into a rat's nest. They're going to run into all hell. It's going to break loose in their life. Everybody goes through hell. Why? This isn't a place to be? And I think possibly some of this negative hell that visits this is almost a prod to get 'em to think about. Nobody knows there's life after death. They may say they believe it, but believing is talking to yourself and trying to convince yourself, knowing it as something else. Knowing means you've got to walk across and back.

Speaker 7

vid2-55:55

And another question, do you use a dream to have a better understanding of what you call the absolute self?

Speaker 1

vid2-56:05

A dream?

Speaker 7

vid2-56:05

Yeah. How dreams useful?

Speaker 1

vid2-56:11

R: No, I can't say that. I mean, I would be suspicious. A dream can't be proven. In fact, if I dreamed a perfect dream about what I visited and hadn't already known that it was a mirror. In other words, if a person dreams that they've visited the absolute and they give you a definition, there's no guarantee at all that that's related at all. Because first of all, your head and the entities that are really trying to touch your energy, well sometimes give you visions as people had visions and they thought it was coming from heaven. And I'll give you an example. June of Ark, we used to read about Joan of Arc in history in a Catholic history. And she could almost perform little miracles. And yet she had a miserable time. They burned her to death. See? So my guess is that you don't have to take risks just to find the real answer. And you don't want to delude yourself with the interpretation of dreams either. It's nice if they prove themselves, but to second guess them. See, I maintain that when you get into this few feet, you start to realize that you're on the track. Things will come to you. You'll get hunches and there'll be hunches that you can try. And if they don't work, you can put them aside. But invariably they'll try. I think that there's forces work with you, but you have to show enough determination that you're not going to flunk out once you start.

Speaker 5

vid2-57:59

Do you believe that someone could follow their hunches and end up being misled by people's spirit?

R: Well, it's possible. You can follow your hunches anytime. It'd be wrong. I don't say your hunches are right. This is one of the things, correcting the intuition. We do not discover wisdom with logic. Logic will not bring you wisdom. Intuition is the faculty. One. Faculty we have can do with abstract condit.

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Time: 53 minutes

vid3-00:01

R: And that can't be described. See? Yes. Can't logic give you a jumping off point, so to speak? Common sense I'd say would Sure You don't, don't do foolish things, and there's a lot of foolish things people do in this. It's just like a lot of people like to tie vegetarianism with it. That's all right if they want to do that, but that verges on asceticism. The only thing is that the bad thing about eating meat is that today you don't know where it's been. I heard does he go out in Wisconsin that's going into making damer burgers? So be careful.

Speaker 2

vid3-00:48

Don't you feel that like an attempt to be a vegetarian is an effort to act compassionately

Speaker 1

vid3-00:54

R: Towards other living things? You can tie it together if you wish, but I think the main reason you do it if you're philosophic, is you do it to clear up your brain, your mind, so to speak, so that you can think better. You do things to, I understand that people that eat meat don't have the patience to think along certain lines that a vegetarian has, and I am not arguing with that. See,

Speaker 2

vid3-01:25

Don't you think that there's a spiritual feeling to know that you're not behaving violently towards other living things?

R: No. No.

Q. You don't think that?

vid3-01:35

R: No. There's nothing spiritual about nut killing. There's nothing spiritual about nut killing. Is it possible to act compassionately then and live? We should shoot the cat because it kills the mouse.

Q. ... a bourgeois pig ...

R: huh?

Speaker 2

vid3-01:55

Can you act compassionately and choose to live as a bourgeois pig or as someone who's totally consumptive without any awareness of what their consumption does to other people who have to sacrifice to provide the pigs today?

Speaker 1

vid3-02:07

R: I don't know. Everybody in this world is a bourgeois pig then, because we take a piece out of somebody every day and you people are all studying for a profession to learn how to clip people for enormous amounts of money. See? See? So is that a bourgeois pig? In other words, what's worse taken to an extreme? Yeah, sure. Huh?

Speaker 3

vid3-02:34

Why? I really can't hear why

Speaker 1

vid3-02:42

Difference? Passivity. Passivity. Be passive. Passive. That's the way you should feel. You're a woman. Women should be passive. Men should be active. They make good wives, huh? Oh, women love to suffer. A lot of 'em are masochists. Huh? You don't like to suffer. Well, you got to get tough. You got to get tough.

R: No, no. What I am saying about this business of killing, if you've got rats running around your house and they bite one of your children, he is, but get a disease. See? So we can't weigh everything in terms of killing. I think there was a biblical quotation on that too, that there was no objection to killing the fish. For instance, they were a nice little fish. Why should Christ went out and brought in a bunch of fish and ate them? Maybe he could eat cornmeal or something. See, but the idea is that we do not kill - God kills.

vid3-04:06

We do not kill. We're damn lucky to do anything with stuff is just thrown in front of us every day and we react the best we can. But I'm saying to get down and say, to make a law that you can't kill this or that, or one time you could only kill ones with a cloven hoofs perfectly. All right. Ones with a horse hoof. Don't kill 'em. See, this don't make any sense, and yet we kill each other. Don't kid yourself about brutality. The human race is the most brutal killer on the face of the earth, and he maybe has to do it to survive the

Q. To refine people,

R: huh?

Q. Then he doesn't try to refine people. Refine.

R: Refinement is a definition that you have to, you're picking for yourself. All of us don't know refinement. Some guy might be covered over with ulcers or chancres or God knows what, but he still may be a spiritual person. Holy people are not beautiful. They paint pictures with halos around them, but they may have been very ugly. See, they may not have been refined. See, in other words what you're saying, why can't we be nice? What do you mean by nice? Nothing's nice. We

Speaker 3

vid3-05:34

Develop humanity by defining, by being most sensitive.

Speaker 1

vid3-05:41

R: People who are refined are looked upon as potential victims by most other people. If you're kind, you'll be exploited. So inside the school and defining human being, that beauty, the human being, that's a talk to your spiritual trait because of the simple fact that you're defining it in advance. You're defining something you don't have yet as being beautiful and spiritual and all this sort of thing. You don't know what that type of behavior will take you, especially when it seems like the people that make the greatest strides are they suffer the most because they're egos. It takes a tremendous egos. You've got a little ego there. You think you're a legislator for refinement, want everybody to be nice according to some God knows what formula, but isn't one of the principal

Speaker 2

vid3-06:40

The fundamental. If you're going to achieve enlightenment and you achieve a oneness of things, things you realize, things are interdependent, things are infuse that you as a person and what you do, you're connected with everything else. You can only

vid3-06:58

R: Pick that up in nice stories. The only thing that you become is God, and it matters whether this place is 10 feet in manure. Those guys that walk through that or fight through that are the ones that reach someplace and those that want to just say, let's dress up the earth because it's got manure all over it. See, people aren't nice. That part doesn't matter. I mean, there is no formula for this that requires us to change our human behavior. In other words, sure. I'll say in some regards, something will accelerate our spiritual growth, but being nice to the neighbor or being nice to the little animals or painting pretty pictures. This is really maybe a hindrance because it's a business of playing that by being nice, you're not going to be an animal. We're going to rise above the animals with all this niceness. Always,

Speaker 3

vid3-08:13

Always niceness to be cruel human. I can't hear you too much. I'm sorry. Cruel. Another human being to be cruel to another human being. I think it's to watch cruel. How about another animal? Yes, he, first he would,

vid3-08:53

R: We got pets, we got cats and dogs, and those dogs are killers and those cats are killers. And then we're trying to tell ourselves we shouldn't kill anything because we're afflicted with attacks by viruses and everything. This is a dog eat dog society. But it's so,

Speaker 3

vid3-09:13

And I think that we had 6 million in the most evil, most vicious way, and here is the pistol, and I don't know how people don't associate things that humanity already condemned because we condemned azi. Yet the people are able to create the same kind of whether it's against one individual or a group of people, and I think the religion and the movement is to prevent the recurrence of the watch, how they wind up,

Speaker 1

vid3-10:05

R: Watch how those beautiful religions wind up. Isn't the bloodiest wars on this planet were in ancient times were fought by religious people. The crusades, for instance, sent out children to be butchered, so God changed his mind. This was stupidity because they didn't really know what God wanted.

Speaker 4

vid3-10:26

But you used the Bible before. What

Speaker 1

vid3-10:28

About the verse that says God is love? Or do you I don't send it in. Maybe somebody else send it in. Just have beautiful babies and be happy. Yeah.

Speaker 5

vid3-10:50

Might you consider, however, that in some circumstances that engaging in damage to other other mentalities could be a distraction and a waste of energy, and on that basis, you should refrain or avoid from engaging in activity like

Speaker 1

vid3-11:13

R: That how you do it when nations are doing it. See, this is a whole thing.

Speaker 5

vid3-11:19

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. What I'm saying is should we refrain from activity like that?

R: Because we're not doing this. This is nonsense. We're not crowding the ozone layer. This is the human races doing it. That's what I'm saying. It happens. Yes, but are you going to change it with your talk? You think your talk is going to change that or my talk is going to change it? Are you think that the happiness is going to give you spiritual?

Q. We're talking about spiritual enlightenment now, not politics.

R: Well, you can't be talking about spiritual enlightenment. You don't know what it is. You don't know whether planting carrots or killing rabbits is going to take you to heaven. I'm not talking about that.

Speaker 5

vid3-11:57

I'm talking about, you talked about saving energy for yourself because energy needed to go beyond. As you have said, you have said that energy is required and some things, like you said, sex for example, and other activities waste our energy. And for those reasons, we should not engage in things which waste our energy because we need that energy to go beyond. As you said,

Speaker 1

vid3-12:19

If you did everything that you thought might waste your energy, you would atrophy in one position.

R: This is silly. You're trying to instruct the world. This is a mad house. This is a mad house. You might as well relax. We're trying to do something. Find a definition of why this is a mad house. Not I'm saying to one person, if you want to get ahead, then you watch your energy. I'm not saying to the masses they can do what they please, but because the simple fact, I know that there's no benefit. Humanity will not benefit from me telling them to do something when they are programmed for a toboggan ride downhill. See, what

Speaker 5

vid3-13:08

You're saying is you can't generalize and say that's true of everybody, but

Speaker 1

vid3-13:13

R: It might be true of individual. I really can't see any point in how you're equating a esoteric experience with doing something nice. That's all. Because we can't define it. You can't define good or bad. This is one of the errors. Huh?

Speaker 5

vid3-13:32

I wasn't talking about good or bad. I was talking about conserving energy and waste energy.

Speaker 1

vid3-13:36

R: Yeah, but I mean you wove that around there because you still wanted to bring out your point of not ruining the environment. That's what your main point was.

Q. That wasn't my main point. My main point is wasting energy and yeah, what do you have?

Q. Can women be enlightened?

R: Huh?

Q Can women be enlightened?

R: Yes. Yes. Enlightenment final.

R: Yes, yes. Once then you're assert, you know that what will happen when you die. That's definite and final no matter what you do with your life. But of course, once this happens, you won't be too eager to do anything. Well, death is constant. Huh? Death is constant. There's always present life. Well, I'm asking. Well, there's always somebody dying, if that's what you mean.

Speaker 4

vid3-14:23

Q. Is it enlightenment, a change, a consciousness?

Speaker 1

vid3-14:26

R: Well, I wouldn't say a change. It's a realization that before this there was error and now there's nothing but fact left. Huh? Are you there? No energy left once you away?

vid3-14:42

R: I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say it's a different form. You don't have a body. We talk about energy. We're talking about kinetic energy, I presume. See that isn't there. You can think and it'll happen from the other side. This is one thing. First thing I did was to see what I could do and all I had to do was think about it and it would appear. So it was a different type of energy has to be after your enlightenment experience. The first thing you did was see what you could do. No, no, not after my enlightenment. In the period that what I, across whatever I wanted to see, I could see. So it was basically a discovery. Yes. Sure, sure. I had no, you can't have precon. This is the trouble. The reason people are not getting enlightened is because religion, all these religions are telling people to believe you got it made. Just believe you got it. Made nonsense. They haven't found out anything. See, believe me, I've stuck my nose very deeply into the Christian religion,

Speaker 6

vid3-15:55

Q. Sir, out of body experiences, right? Is that one way of trying to find, enlightenment it that way?

vid3-16:03

R: Well, I'll say, I'll tell you, that's a good start. That's a very good start because it's very similar to that. Only thing is that out of the body experiences, that it's basically a astral body. It's an astral body that crosses, but it shows the indestructibility of the human being because in that aral body, nothing can bother them. Nothing can harm them. Although I have read things by KY and a few other people who said, you have to be careful that there are entities that can attack you in Midflight or something like that. But have you read the fellow that wrote Life After Life, moody, what is his name?

vid3-16:46

Q. Moody. Moody. Raymond Moody.

R: Yeah. He was studied cases. The reason he wrote the book was because it happened to him. He's a medical doctor, I think maybe a psychiatrist, and I think he was on one of these talk shows in which they interviewed a bunch of people that had died and returned. And I thought it was very interesting. Of course, moody didn't have too much to say except that he had been studying this stuff himself. But one fellow had fell out an airplane about a thousand feet or so, and landed on his head, survived it, survived it, and they was asking him how he reacted to it and had to rebuild his face. Bones crushed in his face.

vid3-17:38

R: But they had several people, truck drivers, several truck drivers who had been in accidents, but their stories were rather consistent that there's a different, if you want to take a hundred cases of people who were killed and brought back, you'll have five or 10 categories. One of 'em is the tunnel of light. And I've run into people that said they found themselves in a tunnel and they'd see a light in the distance. And when he got through the tunnel, then of course there was a figure there, which they interpreted to be Jesus Christ or their father or a dead relative waiting for them. But they seem to fall into categories. I've read hundreds of cases of people that were knocked out and saw it went through this tunnel of light. Then there's others that wind up in the middle of a field someplace a beautiful field, and somebody walks up to 'em and tells 'em, come on, we're going to go from here to someplace else.

Speaker 6

vid3-18:47

R: What happens though, when you're sleeping, say when you're sleeping or in, and you see yourself outside of your body, kind, aware that you're in your body or that your body's there, but point of view is from a different place

vid3-19:02

In that kind of stuff is that you'll find people, if you look for 'em that have been in car wrecks and stuff, have been pronounced dead practically, and then they come back and they tell you this is what they saw from the ceiling. They watch their own operation and stuff.

vid3-19:20

There's a lot of literature to the fact that you don't have to have a near death experience that by accident or training, this can happen in a sleep state in

vid3-19:31

Fairly unquote routine. Well, you got to determine between what is a dream and the person that's telling the story. You can't determine that because if somebody's always going to say, I don't believe you, I don't believe, believe that you just dreamed it. It was a very, very compelling dream. See, whereas the way you can prove it is if like moody, if he went out of his body and headed for Washington dc he was from down here someplace, Alabama or somewhere below here, he goes up. But when he first went out the window, he recognized people on the street and could name them. See, now that means that his eyes, his eyeballs is going with him. See what I mean? On the other hand, if you say, well, I dreamt that my body was out of the bed or in a corner or something like that, if something happened, the spirit did something or somebody saw the spirit besides yourself, then you got something validated. This is what you have to go by because you know that people can dream and imagine a lot of stuff. What do you believe that that is not

Speaker 6

vid3-20:41

Q. Experience when you're in, what would you try and find things? If you think maybe that's a possible state that you can try and find a

vid3-20:52

R: Life in, what would you try to do or what you try to be aware of? Well, once you go to sleep, you can't do anything. I mean, I think it'd be very difficult to summon your will once you go to sleep dream, huh? Well, you don't meditate. We're talking about the consciousness. And once you're asleep and you have a dream, if you can alter that dream with the sleeping body, then you're not out of your body. And even if you see it, if you see it and don't try to order it, you still don't know it's your buddy. You might just dream that that be part of a dream. The thing is that you have to have some validation that has to be critical enough, and that's the reason that they caught it. They look for death experiences who valid enough to

Speaker 6

vid3-21:41

Q. You and you wanted to try and see how can you reach this state and what you're supposed to learn from. What do you think you would go for or try and be not aware

vid3-21:54

R: Of, but look out for? In other words, you're thinking, how could you amplify that and maybe make something out of it? That what you mean?

vid3-22:02

Yeah. Well, I think you could think about it, but I don't think that you could do it. I just don't think that you can change a dream. The danger, of course, is that you might even develop more complex dreams. It would be more convincing and still more convincing. But you see the reason, one thing about it is I think that once you die, once there's absolutely no consciousness. Then you're not dreaming, and they can, I think, actually monitor the sleeping person until when they start dreaming, and that could be really checked. It could put a wire you up and check to see if there's sometimes the eye movement tips 'em off that they're dreaming. See a little flutter on the eyes. So if you're dreaming, then it's not valid, but I know what you're thinking. How could we transfer this into a genuine total experience and no, understand what the human soul is. See, I've never heard of it coming about that way. I thought meditation. Well, I think meditation. But see, the thing is, again, controlling meditation. The minds have to wonder under meditation. See, and it is just like this idea, this concept of holiness or sweetness or niceness. That's an ego trip. That's an ego trip, and that's a barrier. That's all. That's a barrier to it. And so consequently, what we're doing is struggling for sledgehammers to knock us out of this body so that we can know that we're out of the body, know that the body's unconscious, not dreaming at the point of death, in fact.

Speaker 2

vid3-24:01

So would you consider the experience of astral projection to be helpful or a hindrance if it's achieved?

R: Well, I'll tell you one thing. It shows that you're not just the body. There is something beside the body here. So there's an ability, and that's the reason I think the spurs is concocted these different realms. If maybe they're true. That's the astral dimension. The astral body takes you through the astral dimension, but you're not any smarter when you come back. And then there's a causal dimension that people get into. And the things that you can do there is you can do about anything you want to do. Yeah,

Speaker 7

vid3-24:47

Q. Be smart when you come back. Isn't, life isn't enlighten.

Speaker 1

vid3-24:53

R: I mean, if I as discovering facts? No, not facts. Not facts. Just realization. Just a realization of what you really are. Now I can tell you what you discover. That's the reason I made this thing up here. The human soul is in that. I drew that circle. It looks like a crayon, but it's the best way I can figure. The human soul doesn't die, but it enters a larger soul. It enters a larger soul. And you don't have, you're not disillusioned by any chance that you own the place when you get there. See what I mean? But this is the equivalent. We can use the word God. It's rather loosely because no one shows up and says, I'm God. But you enter a larger soul dimension and within that realm you have power and activity. But what goes on after that? I didn't say that long. See, discovering our soul merges with another soul, which we call God

Speaker 7

vid3-26:03

By talking about leaves. Again, some leaves take form of a vision. Describe it as if it's something that you are sense. And how would you consider that? I mean, you said

vid3-26:20

R: You should keep a tablet besides your bed and write every dream down is every detail that you're can think of. You'll be surprised what you're working at nighttime too.

Speaker 7

vid3-26:30

Well, I mean something to pick the form of the vision, and some of these visions would describe facts

vid3-26:37

R: Exactly the way they happened. Sure. As if it's a graphic picture.

Speaker 7

vid3-26:42

What would be your explanation?

vid3-26:45

R: I was talking earlier about synchronicity. These things start to happen when you get interested in esoteric philosophy and go after, pledge yourself to the truth. You'll get things that are real. They're not nightmares. See what I mean? You'll get some real views. But the best way, and I used to do this, I wrote down all my dreams. The only thing that ever came of the years and years I spent writing down my dreams was that I saw them planting a flag on the moon before they did it. I have it still in the little notebook on these stenographic notebooks, a spiral wire through it.

vid3-27:23

And it happened pretty much the way, of course, there was no people, I didn't recognize that. People just like I saw that people do this, but it wasn't a revelation. It was just a dream. I don't say it was a spiritual experience, just a dream, but it could be a coincidence. See, and that's synchronicity. That's what they call synchronicity. But see, I maintain that you can use this synchronicity. You can cause things to happen. It's not going to have any benefit for your salvation or spiritual gain. It's just that these things are possible. And I often think sometimes they're bait, they're bait, little talents. You want to play with the talent, see what you can see under while you're having this death experience or while you're dreaming and that kind of stuff. So some entities or something, throw some of this garbage in your head, entertain you and get you ego egotistical enough to go out and preach about it. See?

Speaker 4

vid3-28:21

So it ends up becoming a block. Paranormal powers could end up becoming a block.

vid3-28:26

R: I think they a bait. I think they can become a bait. Yeah. Because they don't, as you know how old I am, and I've been watching this stuff and making notes on it all my life and my dreams didn't give me an indication. I had a greater wisdom while I was dreaming, when I was awake. See? So if I'd had them when I was awake, I'd want to question it. What made me think that or what made me see it? Have you ever tried mentally to get

Speaker 8

vid3-28:58

Back to that state?

vid3-29:03

R: No. And yes, sometimes I try, but I mean, as far as making a career, I don't do anything with the purpose of The reason is if you go back through it, you go through hell again. You go through hell again to get there. And I'm close enough without going through hell.

Speaker 8

vid3-29:25

After that experience, your life was pretty clear and

vid3-29:27

Didn't, have you lost the faith years that you used to carry? Was that something you experienced?

R: No. There's an old, old, say before the experience. The mountains look like mountains and valleys look like valleys. But after the experience, the mountains are once more mountains than the valleys. There's a magic change in which the mountains disappear. All the things we consider facts disappear, but then when we wake up, here's the mountains back again, which were fiction under the experience. See, and that's the way it has to be. We're tied to this mental belief system. So the only thing that changes is your sense of purpose and also that knowledge that you've been there, so you have more certainty. Well, that's enough. That's enough. I went to get proof of permanence or life after death, and I found it. And of course I spent some time talking about it sometimes, but I don't have any, there's no mechanics that I want to get into on it. I believe the things that I'm advising, for instance, I don't tell people how live. I say, if you want to try to shoot for an enlightenment, you have to live a certain way. There's no two ways about it. I'm not saying everybody has to do that. Just people that say, I'm going a hundred percent.

vid3-30:56

R: Then you're starting to negate the physical body. Then the physical body holds your attention all the time. And if it ain't your physical body, it's somebody else's physical body, it's going to hold your attention. So you've got to be able to transcend that. That's all. And some people have said, well, once you can transcend and you don't need to pay attention to it, then it's alright to go ahead and indulge it. I'm a little bit suspicious of that too. Are you

Speaker 2

vid3-31:21

Recommending it?

vid3-31:22

R: Huh? Are you

Speaker 2

vid3-31:23

Recommending it?

vid3-31:24

R: Recommending what?

vid3-31:29

Sure. Why is the purpose of election you trying? Are you recommending the,

R: no, I don't know. This is a shot in the dark. This lecture is a shot in the dark. I know about Zen. I've experienced things in it and perhaps there's a lot of books on Zen, but there's stuff you don't get from the books, and that's the action. And so I'm just furnishing information. That's all. Does it take particularly strong physical sobriety in order to withstand this kind of experience? Again, I think you should be healthy. Yeah. I think you should be healthy because I know that you go through hell. You'll go through hell at times.

Speaker 7

vid3-32:11

What makes you feel so certain that you really went behind this realization that you are under? If you got this enlightment, what makes you believe that you went out body and came back in?

vid3-32:28

R: Well, I can't prove it to you. I know this right,

Speaker 7

vid3-32:33

But what makes you feel so serv?

Speaker 1

vid3-32:36

R: Well, because of the things I saw when I was there and the things that I could cause to be. First of all, I didn't want to do anything or see anything. I was just tremendously happy. And I thought, this is wonderful. See, and of course the things were going through, this is something that I observed in hindsight that my mind was with me. My physical memory was still with me. And this is important because if the mind, the brain is just a flaw of flesh, you go unconscious. There's no way we're getting your consciousness if it's locked into this flesh alone. So that's the reason I put the one circle inside the other. The human mind has to go across whole being has to be inside the soul of what we call God. We use that word God because we don't know, but we know we're encapsuled in something greater and we can only operate within its environments to say same as we can only operate in this place. That's the reason when people were talking about trying to change people. I think it's a waste of time because there's a bigger burden up ahead. And that's saving each man, saving themselves and not trying to say what the, trying to define the techniques or the things that we should avoid or do because we're created into a madhouse. This is a madhouse. There's nothing beautiful about it. And to try to make it beautiful is secondary to me. The only thing that I've ever seen that's beautiful is generate any negative.

vid3-34:21

R: How do you know it's negative? See all of this stuff, nobody kills. See, nobody is capable of defining negative or positive, the things that some one man is going to define as negative, another man considers as beautiful. It's saintly. See,

vid3-34:45

R: The thing is we don't define the same. That's the trouble. People on this earth do not define it. You can't get a common definition. See, I have a question about something. You said earlier. You said women were passive. What did you mean by that? Oh, that's terrible, isn't it? That women are passive? How did I know? I was asking What do you mean by passive? Well, you know what passive is? They're not aggressive. They play a smooth role instead of coming out fighting. See, they're not dominating. They're not supposed to be. Excuse me. We've got a generation coming up that they're not passive. I'll grant you that.

Speaker 3

vid3-35:34

I'm,

Speaker 6

vid3-35:38

I have never been accused of being passive in

vid3-35:44

My family who ever have been. And I know a lot of women that aren't passive, believe me, but they're not spiritual. Yes.

Speaker 9

vid3-36:02

All the processes seem so vague. And if they are, which that's what I see zen is, is you can't describe it. How did you start? How did you get into it? What was the first step

vid3-36:16

You took? You said you had a teacher.

R: Yes, I tried everything. Anything that had promise in it said that you can gain some insight into what happens after death. I tried it. That's all it was. Reading a book. If I was not eating meat, I quit eating meat. I became a vegetarian. See what got you on the

Speaker 9

vid3-36:40

Main line with

Speaker 1

vid3-36:41

Your teacher? An accident.

Speaker 10

vid3-36:44

An

vid3-36:45

Accident.

R: Yeah. I mean, I didn't have this when I was working with this teacher. He was up in Connecticut. I was in Seattle when this happened. The only thing was the man could transmit. That's something else. And I hope we don't get into trying to define that tonight. There's people can help you. In other words, that's the idea. Well,

Speaker 11

vid3-37:10

So you've been in Latin and you don't want to get to that state again. Don't want to get what you've been there and

Speaker 1

vid3-37:17

You don't want to go to the hell to get there again. I don't think I'd necessarily go through hell, but I know I'd go to the same place and I just decided to use the rest of my life up. And I believe this is a commodity that's so rare that if a person does experience it, they should try to find a few people. There's very few people that go this far. And my idea is to, I believe that this is the true humanity. The true humanity is the mother helps the child see. And we have to try to bring a better child into the earth than what we were a smarter child. A more aware, aware and things. But if you do that, if you could do that, well, then you're going to try to get the best situation for that child. And the same way with a man, the man sees that he's brought people into the earth to die. That's all just to die. There's no hope. There's no real proof. We can guess. We can hypnotize ourself with all those suggestions or finite them. See, call on a thousand saints for witnesses, but we know nothing and we die stupid. So when there's a chance that a person can be awake, this is what's more important.

Speaker 11

vid3-38:38

Why don't you want to be awake again if you've been below?

vid3-38:42

R: Well, I can't help it. I'm not going to live forever and I don't need to hurry. Not too far down the road. See, I'm not rushing it. I'm not real. You

Speaker 8

vid3-38:53

Know what it is?

Speaker 1

vid3-38:54

Yes.

Speaker 8

vid3-38:55

Do you choose to live?

Speaker 1

vid3-38:59

R: I don't choose to die. I mean, I'm not going to commit suicide. That's all.

Speaker 11

vid3-39:03

Q. You choose to live the way you're living.

vid3-39:06

R: Yeah, sure.

Speaker 11

vid3-39:08

Without pursuing enlightenment anymore.

Speaker 1

vid3-39:12

I don't have to pursue it. I have it. You have? I have it. Yeah. I know every second of the day. Well, if so, except when somebody's asked me questions. Yeah.

Speaker 4

vid3-39:26

You said people, most people don't see truth.

R: They try to change environment to suit their desires.

Speaker 1

vid3-39:32

They try to change each other too.

Speaker 4

vid3-39:35

Q. Is it possible that enlightenment is different for everyone because of their desires possible. When you do become enlighten,

vid3-39:45

R: The experience that they tell you about is all of 'em are different. Nobody does it the same. Nobody has it the same. Nobody has it identically the same. No, there's not one absolute enlightenment. That is true. There's only one absolute for the whole human race. There's only one absolute enlightenment. But the road, the hell they go through before is what is different. And that's because they're just different people in different places and whatever. It is not a stereotype. It's not a stereotype type of death.

Speaker 4

vid3-40:20

Q. I was wondering, after you come back, when you are enlightened, you merged with absolute soul. So when you come back, are you still merged with it or

vid3-40:29

R: You know you are. Yes. You know that this is where you were and where you are. The only thing is we're back in the picture show and I'm playing Clark Gable and somebody else is playing the bad guy. We got horses to ride and cattle round up. Yeah. Is

Speaker 11

vid3-40:48

Path that important,

Speaker 1

vid3-40:49

Huh?

Speaker 11

vid3-40:50

Q. You talked about celibacy. A lot of the Buddhists in Dallas writings say that they gather energy from sex. Is the path that important? Is it more the action versus it the intention of the action?

Speaker 1

vid3-41:03

I have never heard of anybody getting energy from sex except women. I mean, the women get the energy from the man. But I've never heard of a man getting energy from sex. I've seen him get skinny as rails and die of tuberculosis and everything else from sex. But I've never seen him get power. Huh? Off men. And they're like, that's bad, ain't it? You're sorry too. Oh, what was I going to say? I was going to say something I thought was important. It must not have been. Yeah.

Speaker 4

vid3-41:55

Q. Are Buddhism and Christianity mutually exclusive?

Speaker 1

vid3-41:59

R: What do you mean by exclusive?

Speaker 9

vid3-42:00

Q. In other words, do they contradict each other? Could a person be a Christian Buddhist, or is that an impossibility?

Speaker 1

vid3-42:07

R: Well, I don't know. I don't consider myself a Christian, a Buddhist or anything. Zen isn't Buddhism incidentally. No, no. Don't conflict that. There's books written called Title Zen Buddhism, but zen is not. The Japanese have a complete different system of zen. And in Japan, there are two systems of Zen. I used to know the names, I've forgotten them. But zen, it's a word that has just had the procedure has not appeared. The western world with a name of its own here. Maybe we can find a name to use that won't give this idea that it's something magical out of the, and don't get the idea that there're saints, Tibet's full of saints and that sort of thing. I had that when I was a kid. I always wanted to go to Tibet. I thought all those monks over there were real really wise. And I thought they, they'll have the answer. See? So what happens is that there's a lot of stories in the newspaper lately. They big, they found a bunch of monks in California, they got aids. So they're not very saintly. See? So did you read that in the paper? They're supposed to be celibate people. You can't, pretty hard to get AIDS if you're celibate. That's one thing. Ways, if you want to play it safe, why be celibate? You want to get aids, huh? Cut.

Speaker 9

vid3-43:38

You can get cut and get the aids by. So I mean, it's not,

vid3-43:42

R: What do you mean cut?

Speaker 9

vid3-43:44

You can have a cut on your hand and you can touch someone's saliva that has aids.

Speaker 1

vid3-43:49

Get it?

Speaker 9

vid3-43:50

I mean, you can.

Speaker 1

vid3-43:50

R: Yeah. Don't anybody cut their wrist tonight. It's not causing any panics. But what happened was somebody got ahold of the ambassador from Tibet and said, what's happened here? This monk got aids. And he said, if he's got aids, look up the head monk. He's the one that's spreading it. So he's talking of a lifestyle in Tibet. So my childhood, or young man, as a young man thinking of wanting to go to Tibet, something sacred, they're not necessarily sacred. They're human like everybody else. And incidentally, that also was given as an excuse by some of the generals in China for massacring, the monks in Tibet. They massacred a bunch of 'em, and they claimed the reason they massacred 'em is they were homosexual. And of course that was not an anti-religion. That was an anti hygienic law passed by that Chinese, they don't tolerate in their own population, supposedly. See,

Speaker 4

vid3-44:59

Q. So zen and Buddhism are not the same?

Speaker 1

vid3-45:01

R: No, no, I don't believe. Don't believe in endorsing an, and that's the reason that I try to choose my words real carefully. We do things according to a procedure. And when I say it helps, if you're celibate, that helps in a lot of things. There used to be the athletes and the prize fighters or celibate, nor to win a battle in a fight. They kept their energy. They knew it. They didn't have to be proven to them. They saw they could fight better when they had their strength. I'm just doing, but this is not any indoctrination on my part from any Oriental group. The man that I studied under, it was in this country. He studied under a teacher that had been in, not India, but China. China or Japan. I didn't care about that. What I listened to was the man's words. And I found out that he spoke the truth and that was good enough for me.

vid3-46:03

R: And he said, things can happen according to a formula. And they happened according to the formula. See? And that was also good enough. See? But I am almost averse to reading books and Buddhism and zen anymore because it's full of, what do you call? There are people that just get in and they pretend they're something and they go out preaching, get enough people to build a temple for them, and they locate in the temple and raise a few thousand dollars. And that's the way they live. See? Do you think that's because the real thing is difficult and they're trying to sell something that's easy? Well, I think this is in all religions. I'll give you an example. I was in the Catholic monastery and I quit. I got out because saw, I didn't, the stuff that they were putting forth, I didn't buy it, that's all.

vid3-47:03

R: I don't believe that the Pope's infallible and things like that. They just go too far with making claims. So I dropped out and years later I ran into one of the priests, and I was kidding him. And I said, and I'm going down in the south someplace, Alabama or Texas or someplace and start up another religion. I was joking with him. I was just tormenting him. See? And he was serious. He said, you'll never get away with it. We're too deeply entrenched. So he was figuring business figures. See, he was talking about business, how deeply you get entrenched. They can't run you out of business. Strangely enough. They're going out business,

Speaker 10

vid3-47:46

R: Their monasteries are closing down, the convents are closing down. One of the boys here took a ride up with me to the seminary where I studied to be a priest. It's empty. And at one time had 300 at a time, 300 guys working. That was right above Pittsburgh. Butler, pa, Herman, PA is five miles from Butler. That's where it was. They're empty all over the country. So we're not getting any more spiritual, I think we're getting more pregnant.

Speaker 10

vid3-48:16

Q. What about the threefold path of Buddhism, though? You talked about that a lot.

Speaker 1

vid3-48:20

R: What about the threefold path? What is it? Huh? What is the threefold path? I thought it was a fourfold path, wasn't it? It was. No, you chopped it down because we're running out of time. Well, I'll tell you what, I know what you're talking about. You're talking about this, the principles of No, you tell me.

Speaker 7

vid3-48:52

I thought about the boot of the DER and the saying it.

Speaker 1

vid3-48:55

R: I thought you were talking about the four principles that was needed. No, that was the nine. There's nothing. Well, you give me four of 'em and I'll be satisfied.

Speaker 2

vid3-49:05

The

Speaker 1

vid3-49:05

R: Way the truth and the light. That's biblical as well. Yeah. The buddha and the dharma and the sangha is saying it are the same as the way the truth and the light. It's almost synonymous what we're trying to

Speaker 8

vid3-49:16

Do in our awkward way. One to mention the group here at NC State University. I forgot my initial introduction to tell you all that. We meet every week on Wednesday nights at seven 30 and room 3 45 girls and the group, we talk about all these same things every week. So we need the norm.

Speaker 1

vid3-49:42

Oh, this is already open. They're bringing it down. Did they bucket? Want to mention, Hey,

Speaker 8

vid3-49:50

If you want to talk about Mr. Rose many Mr. Rose's writings and writings of his organization, you got a minute, you want to stop by and check them out?

Speaker 1

vid3-50:05

R: I can't. Doesn't me give you the minute by minute or day by day methods of things. But in the truth of matter is, I don't think there's a very believe that there's a very small percentage of people that's interested. I think religion is easy, but a real struggle with yourself to reach a thing by yourself, it's very difficult. So there's a very small percentage of the people, but so I'm not disappointed if people don't what it is there's to do anything spiritual in the spiritual sense, immediately a causes antagonism. And that's the animal body is fighting back. "Don't block me." Don't block the animal body saying, Hey, that may not be true. Or we can do this and that too. See? Yeah. So I've realized that occasionally somebody comes along and says, I know what you're talking about. And that's the reward. So I'm not disappointed if I don't get people that say they know what I'm talking about. It'd be nice, but that's the first truth I have to live with. See, I can talk, but that doesn't mean that it's going. We'll get that.

Speaker 10

vid3-51:29

We'll get

Speaker 1

vid3-51:29

That. Yeah.

Speaker 10

vid3-51:45

Thank

Speaker 1

vid3-51:46

You. Blessings only on Sunday night. Glad you all came. Thank you very much.

Speaker 9

vid3-52:34

I read earlier,

Speaker 1

vid3-52:47

R: 500 years ago, people dos go out and own corn. They survive. But today, why it? It's more important than that to just education's necessary, in other words. But I believe that you can simultaneously, the trouble is that the educational system is so tied up that you don't have time. These damned electives that they foresaw and you takes up a lot of your time. If you're studying math or something like that, it will only take a few hours a day to catch up with your lessons. You can't learn any faster than that. So then you could devote that time to something that you really want to do besides getting into the rat race. And so that's my idea. And I believe that there are some people that just like this fellow.

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Time:

VOB 4 is about 30 min but blank

Footnotes

End