1981-1114-How-to-Run-a-Psychological-Group

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Title	1981-1114-How-to-Run-a-Psychological-Group
Recorded date	November 14, 1981
Location	Farmhouse
Number of tapes
Other recorders audible?
Alternate versions exist?
Source	SH Collection -- 2 versions: 1) Original, 3 cassettes silver & black; 2) Edited version, 1 cassette red and black
No. of MP3 files	8 mp3 files but there is some duplication. These are 21-24 minute mp3s. Also have a 90-min cassette. Will have to transcribe.
Total time
Transcription status	1st pass, auto-transcript, Dec 6, 2024 Happy Scribe. Used directory marked "versions 3 and 4"
Working directory all versions	https://distribution.direct-mind.org/ (need password)
Latest version in PDF by title	https://www.direct-mind.org/pdf/ Finished: https://selfdefinition.org/rose/
Published in what book?
Published on which website?
Remarks	Personal conversations, raw language, do not distribute. Cleveland group drove to farm to discuss setting up a psychological help group. (never got off the ground)
Audio quality	Good
Identifiable voices
URL at direct-mind.org	https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php/1981-1114-How-to-Run-a-Psychological-Group
	For access to this wiki or the audio files please send an email to: editors@direct-mind.org
Revision timestamp	20251019144741

Notes

Removed category Private Oct 19, 2012

From SH tapes.

There are at least 2 different versions: full and a copy that had some edits.

Transcript

File sh-1

sh1-00:01.240]

Harnish: Mr. Rose talking at the farm, November 14, 1981. Not recommended for public meetings.

sh1-00:14.070]

Rose: Mascara was the coordinator at the time. And Frank went up and he came back and he says, you know how Frank talks? He says, boy, they got one up here in Cleveland. He says, boy, this girl, she confronts them all. She comes to the meeting and she'd shut up the monitor and somebody else's turn, she'd tell them what was wrong with them. You know, here's what your trouble is. You're saying this because she had everybody paralyzed. This one bag and everybody in the room paralyzed. And Frank Mascara isn't confronting her. There's a guy should know what to do. He was a coordinator. He went up there when Weimer was causing trouble and was practically unapologetic. Weimer wrote a letter to me and told me he was going to put Mascara out of the meetings because Mascara was talking about, you know, women's. His opposing woman's lib. And so I got talking to Marray Hitmer. Marray Hitmer had attended the meeting and Mary Hitmer was the only one that sided with Mascara. You know, Mascara made a remark about women's nature. And some faggot with no pockets in his pants, you know, he's wearing real tight pants, so his cheek, if his ass had shown.

sh1-01:27.700]

Rose: Personal friend of Weimar's. I razzed him for two years about his asshole buddy. But this guy came over to. They had that house on Franklin Street. I think it was right on the corner. Yeah. And this guy came over there and they sat around and I looked him over and I thought, Jesus Christ, this guy, he's one of them. Forgotten his name. I've forgotten his name completely. If you give me his name, I'd pick it up, but I've forgotten it. But you know, this guy saying, you know, this thing of, you people are narrow minded, you're way behind at times, like as if there's something that. Morality, yeah, there's a morality for 1800 and a morality for 1900. And then there's a morality for 1910 and 1920 and 1930 and oh, you've got to come along with the times. And these guys all succumb to it. They're afraid of saying anything. But a martyr can at least say, well, what do you mean by morality? If that's brought up, or what do you mean by the progress of time or something like that, or what is currently acceptable, say, what do you mean by that?

sh1-02:42.960]

Rose: And then just keep, hey, you can do this with anybody, but you can't go in there As a monitor, unless you have developed the ability to do that, don't let them push up against a wall. If they push up against a wall, say, I think you're pushing up against a wall. See? Is this necessary that you push me up against a wall? We're holding a friendly discussion here. Let's keep a friendly. See what I mean? That's what they should have said to Lorenzo. Hey, you're creating a bad atmosphere here. You don't have to talk that way to people.

sh1-03:17.990]

Harnish: So we were wondering about how to build this to the public. You know, I mean, once we figured out how we were going to present it, another problem. We had to build it so that we could get a response.

sh1-03:31.190]

Rose: Well, you've got. See, this is the thing. I became very despondent or discouraged with the groups because there's a strong tendency. First of all, this is a spiritual group, basically. And whenever you have a spiritual group, you're going to have opposition from nature, if you want to call it that. You're going to have opposition you never dreamed about, see? Okay? Now, this opposition takes its form in the form of lethargy and mental preoccupation. And whenever you, as an individual, supposing there's no group, there's no need, there's no. Okay. You just start out on yourself to be solvent, and you're trying to hold down a job, or you're trying to run a business, or you're trying to go to school. You're going to have about 10 to 20 times more hassle than the guy that's just playing with his gizmo and going through the classes. Because you're bucking something. You're bucking something. And after you meditate so many years, you realize what you're bucking, okay? Now you've got a collective group of people. You got five or six people that are trying to run a business, trying to get along with their families, which have diverse interests.

sh1-04:59.970]

Rose: And you're trying to get along with the public. A real hodgepodge of the public, because 90% of the people you get in any of these group meetings we have are sick people. And the sick ones, in my estimation, can be helped.

sh1-05:21.580]

Harnish: They can.

sh1-05:22.330]

Rose: They can be helped. They have to help themselves. You ain't allowed is. You're not psychologist, so you're not allowed. You're not psychiatrist. I mean, so you're not. Even if you're a psychologist, you couldn't. You couldn't come out and help them. But my belief is that you've got. You've Got to have a policy for the sick people and suggest to them that they form a group of themselves for the purpose of discussion, like sickies Anonymous, see? And they meet and discuss their problems till hell freezes over.

sh1-05:59.030]

Harnish: You mean that would be our meeting.

sh1-06:00.560]

Rose: Or that would, that would be their meeting.

sh1-06:02.760] Harnish: So we'd have our meeting and we'd suggest to them. Right.

sh1-06:07.090]

Rose: I'll tell you what Osgood's doing on the west coast. Osgood came back here and he was telling me. Osgood has no psychological background at all. In fact I never thought he could talk to anybody. He's always in self conscious, but I don't know how he got into it. But they have a thing out there for suicides. And he's telling me that he spends six hours a week, he volunteered for six hours a week to sit on the telephone. He sits on the telephone and they call in and they say I got a gun up to my head and I'm going to blow my brains out. And you got to come up with the answers. And you take a little bit of training. They take you and they train you for this. So if you won't get in the wrong, you know, say go ahead and pull the trigger, you asshole. You know, white will mortal or somebody, say, who do you think you are? What makes you think you're anybody's going to miss you when you're gone?

sh1-07:05.360]

Harnish: Anyway, back to the film.

sh1-07:08.640]

Rose: Anyhow, he. He was telling me that he felt for the first time in his life he was doing something he thought was never a monitor, he never could function as a monitor. And he said he felt for the first time in his life he was doing something. And he said he found it. There was no group. The group kind of fell apart out there in LA because they all biggest part of moved to Denver, about six people. Kavonics in Denver. You knew that?

sh1-07:32.150]

Harnish: Yeah, and I was so smart.

sh1-07:35.930]

Rose: Scott and Kasari and a few others. Yeah, and Jody and Frank. But anyhow, the I said to him, why don't you, why don't you pursue it? Why don't you pursue it? Why don't you volunteer at 12 bars? Why don't you suggest to some of them that they get together. See, the thing is anonymous, if they. As long as they want to remain anonymous, all you do is talk to them on the phone. But they don't want to remain anonymous. They could get together and maybe they're just lonely. See what I mean? So immediately this is no great therapy. You don't want to protect your doctor or anything like that that's bullshit, because it's not a medical thing anyhow. It's a personal thing. Suicide is a very personal thing. And sometimes it has to do with a fatal disease or something like that. Well, then don't. Don't worry too much about it because they're going to die anyhow. They jump off the bridge. But, I mean, there are people, though, that the thing that got me was a person about to commit suicide is also in the exactly the same boat as a man right before a spiritual experience of enlightenment.

sh1-08:52.180]

Rose: See, he has written everything off. He has come to the conclusion his name is shit, the world's name is Shit, the future's name is shit, and the past is pretense of shit. So he says, hey, check out. He's a wise man. Now, if in that trauma he is handled correctly, he may have a spiritual experience. But the thing is, what you do is you work in what's in front of you. Osgood can't go out and start up. It's absurd to start a direct mind science group or a pyramid Zen group or let's talk group, see? But if you do something, then what comes in that door is what's sent to you. And the people don't grasp this. Immediately the guys comes, some sick syphilitic broad, see? And the monitor looks at the guy, is this you a fucker? And the guy says, I don't want to fuck it. You wanna fuck it. Get the fuck out of here. Nobody wants to fuck you, see? Or the thing is, I think she's got bugs on her. Yeah, she's got bugs on her. She's got bugs on her. She's got bugs on her. See, you can't move.

sh1-10:12.860]

Rose: But the neurotics are all in the group. I tell them, here's a shield. Here's how you create a shield for yourself. The bugs can't get through the shield. And like. Well, who was it? Augie, I think it was. I said, you're. You're totally immune. And that was when the witch came down there, stayed all night, you know. I said, you're totally immune. I'll give you been Solomon for 28 days. He wasn't Solomon for 28 days.

sh1-10:54.370]

Harnish: Do you think you can kind of have. Keep people out by that meeting?

sh1-10:57.970]

Rose: Keep them out of your house? Whatever you do, you don't. You don't have to. No, no, no.

sh1-11:01.700]

Harnish: I mean, you can protect the group.

sh1-11:04.200]

Rose: By, you know, there's people who are going to come in and see that this isn't what they were looking for and walk out. Well, hey, no matter what you're doing, you're going to have, you know, how many people do you think there are in Cleveland that will come to a group looking for a maximum spiritual experience? This has been our error in the past. Just talk. Get the people in the group here and say, what did you come in here for? What did you join the group for? Nobody. Nobody. They didn't know what the hell. So Haji Samari was when I started lecturing. They said, they looked at me like this for a long time. And then I'd say, Alan Watts, Paul Brunton, read the book, read this. Bucky's Cosmic Consciousness. Two, three, four years later, they say, ah, I know what this dumb bastard's talking about now. He must believe this shit or he would have kept it up for four years. See, people are not looking for. They can't, they can't. There's no, there's no hope. He said, oh, I'm serious, it's God. I said, okay, it's God. But I said, leave me alone.

sh1-12:21.110]

Rose: What do you bother me for? He said, because I think I should be doing some group work or something like that. I said, hey, I'm going to tell you something, you know. I said, I don't know how you're going to take it, but you are not talking to God. But the fact that you think you're talking to God makes you a hazard to be around me, because I'm not going to argue with somebody, they think they're talking to God. That's, that's to them, the total authority. But I said, I can talk to you for five minutes and I can tell you definitely from your conversation that you're not talking to God because God isn't interested in, first of all, the type of thing that you're talking about. If he's talking to God, he'd be talking to himself. He don't know that he's talking to an external God. A voice that he hears in his ear that says, go out and you know, do this, do that, kick some old lady in the ass or whatever. And I said, this is dangerous. I said, whenever anybody hears a voice, I said, they should challenge it. Whether that voice says it's God or what it is.

sh1-13:22.910]

Rose: I said, even though it gives you a revelation, it might say you walk around the corner and you'll see a yellow dog. And you walk around the corner, yellow dog, and you go, that must be God. That's like the peasant, peasant minded, you know, the primitive, the caveman. He's struck then by this guy's superior knowledge. Come in a helicopter or something. He flew it out of the sky. It must be God. See? But I said, you're the entity. The entity that's talking to you. Can see around the corner and can see the yellow dog. And he can see in another time dimension even to see what's going to happen to you tomorrow. And it can tell you what's going to happen to you tomorrow. And you're going to be impressed. But I says it don't impress me because I said, God, these manifestations. No spiritual experience. Experience comes out of a rotten dope head's mind. You know, guys rotting his brain with dope. That's what I meant, where he enjoys these. The effect he has on people.

sh1-14:19.930]

Harnish: I get the impression that the primary problem with the group is handling the people that come in that trying to screw it up.

sh1-14:30.650]

Rose: Always. Always. If you can handle that always, you gotta be flexible as hell. Do you ever watch how I handle it? Sometimes I muff it myself. But some people I can just. You know, I gave a lecture one time in Pittsburgh and there was a black woman up front. I knew her, Izzy Curtis. And I'm giving the women hill. And there's a bunch of lesbians in the audience seeing I'm working at watching the expression change on their face. But I. She said, that's not Richard talking. And I said, let Izzy put that gun back in here. Talk about. And so she smiles and everybody smiles. You know, that's the way you bounce it off. You don't argue with her. She's a friend. See what I mean? She could pick up too, that I was joking. And she was suckered into it. She got all excited, you know what I mean? You can't hate the public and lecture and give talks and that kind of stuff. But I was needling a few people. I was baiting them. But the whole thing is that all the answers lie in yourself. But basically what you want to do then you have to engineer.

sh1-15:56.600]

Rose: You have to go into the engineering on how you're going to bring it about. Now, when we had the. When we had that group in Kent, when it first started, we had a tremendous lot of stuff that has been abandoned by, you know, first one lazy monitor, then another. We had people that we. We had categories and we put them in. You remember that? And one of them was participation category, right? They check it off if this is what they wanted to do. You know, every month we pass around the sheet if they want to change it. I keep the Other sheet out of sight so that they wouldn't be embarrassed about changing it. And once they got into participation, then we would ask them to help put up posters or something. Otherwise they could just come and sit there. But the ones that weren't in the participation. Yeah, but the ones that. Yeah, the ones that weren't in participation could not argue. They could listen, they could ask questions, but they couldn't give opinions. But the people on the participation basis could give opinions and argue. I mean, that was to maintain order. That was all.

sh1-17:05.080]

Rose: But you can't just start. You can't open those doors, and nobody does. Nobody opens the door of a beer joint about what they set policy. And you go in there and the drunk will come in, and maybe he's pulled it over the next door, maybe he hasn't. But he comes in and he says, hello, you motherfucker. You know. Bartender said, hey, stop that. Once more and you're out. That isn't going to happen here. He hurts. He can't pull back here.

sh1-17:33.180]

Harnish: Yeah.

sh1-17:33.930]

Rose: See what I mean? I got a list of stuff written up for this TAP meeting, and I'm going to read because we'll have some strange people here. The last TAP meeting we had, guys came in here from Philadelphia. They got in that cupboard there, helped themselves with the sugar, helped themselves with the coffee, went out, took over the stove, ate everybody's food, wouldn't buy anything. You know, they just. They just. And they weren't. Poor people, weren't coming back. I knew that and exactly what they were doing. See, they were going to grab every nickel's worth of food they could get and not come back. So. But the same thing, you can't let that. You can't let certain things. Can't let certain policy transpire. And I think, too, there was a stage in this thing in Kent where you had to be invited into the esoteric group. You couldn't come into it. It was an esoteric group, and you had to be invited into it. And I used to tell people, don't go publicizing the fact you hold a meeting. Just like we were going to set up a psychological thing years ago. Al Fitzpatrick was the only psychology major in the group.

sh1-18:42.900]

Rose: So the thing was that he went to Cleveland and rented a place and started to put an ad in the paper or some goddamn thing. And somebody called him up, and the guy was a faggot, and he come apart, deceived me. See what I mean? And he called me on the phone. He said, I had nothing cold but a goddamn faggot. See, and you know, what are you going to start with? Saints, See, you know, Saints Christ. I know lots of faggots. Yeah. I mean, when I was in college, there was guys that turned out to be faggots later, and one of them, Jesus Christ, used to come down to my house. I didn't, like, get away with any. He didn't put his hands on me, see? He was. He wouldn't. Nobody would have known it unless I told him. I don't care, you know, I don't care what a man is, but I do care what he. What if he's gonna sell this, if he's gonna push this, if he's gonna brag about it, if he's gonna get cracky, cruddy jokes and stuff in front of other people that might get sick if they hear the joke.

sh1-19:47.900]

Rose: See, that's what I think. Then you say, hey, don't go on here. And of course, if you set your. You've got to organize it and you got to know what you're doing because you got to go from your own capacity. My mistake was in loading my capacity onto somebody else's shoulders. See, you can't do it if you guys. The best thing. Now, Weimer went up there and started a tat society. I was going to make a trip up to Akron, walk in on him and tell everybody there. This was not a tax society. You have one now? No, he donated. Now, don't think. Because he was bringing. He was a goof. He was bringing this lesbian nun in and a bunch of bullshitters, and they were making fun of him. And then they were making fun of the whole thing. They said, this tap business or whatever you're talking about, this spiritual thing you're talking about is some sickness, ain't it? Et cetera. That was the attitude they were having. They were laughing at him, and the laugh got cleared back to his parents. And his parents says to him, you're making an ass out of yourself.

sh1-20:56.950]

Rose: Because this nun. You know who I'm talking about. Did you go over to some of those meetings?

sh1-21:03.470]

Harnish: I don't know who the nun is. I mean, I'm sure I know her, but I don't know her.

sh1-21:07.390]

Rose: Yeah, but she was not a nun anymore. She was a previous. I forgot. I forgot that. Wasn't that the introductory lecture to the direct mind science thing? That. That nun showed up and. Yeah, and. And made a. You know, made an asshole out of him. I mean. Did she come to my lecture? No. I mean, you don't want to put on that thing oh, yeah, that time Frank Mascara and Dave Gold went up to give talks. Was you there? She was there at that, but she just ridiculed it. Yeah, but Christ, he got on. He got on the telephone. I told him to put out posters and charge. Charge for $5. Anybody come. You don't start out doing anything for nothing. You know what I mean? Because the simple fact.

sh1-21:59.000]

Harnish: They don't.

sh1-21:59.550]

Rose: They don't respect you. They figure you're. They figure you're a couple bullshitters. You get together and want to bullshit with somebody. And so consequently, they're going to pay. You'll buy the beer, you'll buy the. You know. And you probably want laid. And that's the reason they're coming in and they're giving you this. I know what you want. You want laid, don't you? Well, you're going to pay. If you lay this lesbian. I'll get you, you chauvinistic asshole. You know, you ain't going to charge me, but anyhow, this is what happened. He had some guy that come there, too. What the hell was his name? Al Ro. Al Ro or something like that.

sh1-22:40.690]

Harnish: Yeah, he's a friend of. I'm not a friend, but I think.

sh1-22:44.200]

Rose: He came to my lecture. Gallagher, huh?

sh1-22:46.280]

Harnish: He used to be associated with Anna Gallagher.

sh1-22:48.350]

Rose: Oh, which reminds me.

sh1-22:50.200]

Harnish: Dan Bailey died.

sh1-22:52.250]

Rose: The old man?

sh1-22:53.030]

Harnish: Yeah, about a month ago.

sh1-22:54.650]

Rose: Tell me about you. He had cancer. He's cracking. I didn't think he got his age. Never had cancer. No.

sh1-23:01.630]

Harnish: Well, yeah, I can say he had.

sh1-23:03.550]

Rose: They were nice people. They were nice people.

sh1-23:05.570]

Harnish: Oh, she was.

sh1-23:06.380]

Rose: Jewel. Yeah. This is the thing.

sh1-23:09.260]

Harnish: She's been around for years. They were in philosophical society.

sh1-23:13.900]

Rose: He was a high point of my Chautauqua in Akron. Bailey was. I. Sit down. Listen to him. I gotta. You know, if he. You know, I like you. I believe you get a guy like that on a podium like two guys like him and me and I asking questions. And he tells me these stories, I think at the end. Fabulous. Yeah, fabulous. He's all right. He's an honest man. But, you know, this is what I say. You cannot make any contact with the human race sitting at home. And you can. You can open your doors in a group form and you can meet some damn good people or you can drive them out the door. Now, this is the catch, I'm afraid. To what we have, what you got to be able. This discernment. You've got to have discernment now. You've got to be able to look at a person, talk to them five minutes and Know what you can expect out of them and what type of people they are. And, you know, sometimes your intuition will do it. You just like Old Bailey, you know, I've met people like that. And it's that quick.

sh1-24:19.260]

Rose: It's that quick. You know, I don't. Nothing matters, you know, when you meet somebody that you know is 100 percenter, it don't matter how old they are, how young they are, what race they belong to, whether they're sick or what, you know. And these are the people, incidentally, that are. To me, it's viable. This is what we're looking for, is our fellows. Our fellows. You can't find your fellows, but occasionally you do, and then we walk past them. And I know a lot of people like your age because you've known me for eight years or more, maybe nine, 10 years. Yeah, but people that were the same age you were back then, you know, 22, 19, 20, 21, 22 years of age, never scorn for these older people. See, you can't afford it. You can't afford it because I know, I know the reaction of different people in the group. First of all, they got a good reaction to women especially. She's pretty. And baby, I had the same trouble when I was a kid, 19 years old, a pretty girl always had a pretty soul to me. Oh, she has to be. See, that's a reflection of her inner nature.

sh1-25:38.040]

Rose: She's got a beautiful spirit, you know, and you find. And she got a lot of pastimes, has a poodle. And then you find somebody else that's very quietly led a very strict life and is trying to do something with her with their energy, and they don't make much of a noise.

File sh2

sh2-00:01

Harnish: The next two minutes of the tape are garbled because the original is stretched. Please bear with the process for the next two minutes. Thank you.

sh2-00:12

Rose: He don't advise because you don't know anything he said, sir. Nothing. Proud of it. Seabrook wrote a book called Asylum and he told about the minute we were working on in Bellevue and they had. They brought you in and you went to school. They started you in the seventh grade opposite the Earth, what you. Now ward seven. They work you up. When you quit screaming, they put you in Ward 6. When you quit fighting, they put you in Ward 5. See, when you went to Ward 4, they quit packing you nice. Then when you say to do some work around the hospital, they put you ward three or so on. You can hold a decent conversation. They discuss the possibility of turning you loose. That's the whole field of psychiatric. These are chemo therapy and this stuff that is only, you know, experimentation. Experimentation. Well, we found that this. Experimentation, mannerism, say. Well, we found that this guy. We push this hypodermic in this guy's ass and he jumps this way, okay? We wanted to jump that way. Hit him with X drug, See, we could jump this way. Hit him with war. Drunk. He's depressed, Give him an upper.

sh2-01:43

Rose: He's too excited. Give him a downer, you know, he's. He's a sex maniac. Nuts off. It's all somatic.

sh2-02:10

Harnish: So you think to present it as the album system would be too complex?

sh2-02:14

Rose: Yes. I don't think you should. I don't think you should go into that because the simple fact it's. The album system is basically for philosophic people. And in my estimation, I think you should build as a sort of discussion group and name. And you can name your wizards. Oh, you might not like it. I guess it must basically call it the personal problems topic, you know, discussion group. Such a place, just right topic. Personal problems or something of that sort. Personal problems are personal attitudes. You can even, you know.

sh2-03:03

Speaker 1 Yeah, I like that.

sh2-03:05

Rose: See? And you know, don't, don't. Don't go saying, oh, we got the answer. You know, you let them tell you the answer, then give them advice. Very rare, Very rarely. Very rarely. You let them tell you the. Well, I don't know how we mean.

sh2-03:27

Harnish: To keep the album system out of it besides that.

sh2-03:30

Rose: We've done it. Yeah, Completely. Completely. Keep the album system out of it completely. Because of the simple fact. What is the direction of the aboriginal system? It is not for adjustment of people. It's not going to adjust anybody. The only thing Is that some of the information that you've got now, the Abigail system, you can use it in the form of a question to shake somebody into, let's say, a little bit of common sense. Like if somebody says, well, you know, I believe that all forms of sex are permissible, you know, then you've got to have somewhere in the back of your head some question to say, well, why do you suppose so many people down through the centuries, you know, advocated morality? It's a, you know, seems to be a common denominator in all the religions around the world. Are they all wrong? See? Do you think they're all wrong? Yeah. And she says, well, the majority of psychologists or whatever it is, pop it off. She'll say, oh, well, we're going into a new world that we're creating and say, you know, are you sure of that? Is it going in that direction?

sh2-04:42

Rose: It seems like people are getting tired of the. Of this attitude all over the world now. There was an era when it came. Or you can say, well, what happens when? What happens when? Well, what happens if everybody falls into pattern? First, let the party define whatever pattern they think the world is supposed to be. If it's. You can't use the word immoral, they'll object to that. They'll say, it's not immoral because as soon as it becomes legal, it's moral. So then you say, well, what effect do you think that will have on people? Or there are certain things that will really stop their head, make them think. And that is such as, well, we have a lot of this stuff that has permeated the institutions of today, and yet the suicide rate isn't going down. The trouble rate isn't going down. People are still running from themselves and running into support from drugs or support from booze or support from sex. And is it basically going to make us any happier or any more peace with ourselves, or is happiness what we want? These things, you just keep. You just keep coming back, but you have to have a certain backlog of experience to throw at them.

sh2-06:10

Rose: And in other words, say, what the hell was it? It's just like the Christian Science. I said something Cleveland, I heard this, and Chris and stand up there arguing. You know, you get talking on a square there in Cleveland, and he says, some guy spoke up. The guy's popping off for a while. Some guy at some bomb square, though, said, hey. He said, that's Chris's science stuff. It's a bunch of. He says, he said, I had a cousin that was Christian Scientist, you know, and he said he got. He got sick and he wouldn't see a doctor. And he said, you know what happened? He died. And the Christian Scientist came right back and says, well, if your cousin wants to think he's dead, let him think he's dead. So this, I use this a lot. I use that incident a lot in showing the absurdity of certain argument.

sh2-07:05

Harnish: I can catch it. I think I've caught it.

sh2-07:10

Rose: Well, he said, the guy said, if your cousin wants to think he's dead, let him think he's dead. He meant that death was an illusion. See, that's what the Christian side is. But it sounded comic. You see what I mean? There was. It was a rebuttal. It was almost a weak type of rebuttal. But you know, generally when you tell that, people laugh. You know, you people fire on the ladder, you know, above humor. You know what?

sh2-07:43

Speaker 1 I had meningitis. I couldn't treat it because it was. They don't treat anything else. It's a broken bone. Then they say, you can go to the doctor. They said, well, maybe there's something wrong with his neck. By that time, his brains were coming out of his head. It was so inflamed out of his eyes. And I thought, it's ridiculous in our system that would let a kid die like that.

sh2-08:08

Rose: There's an idiotic creator that put that kid in that family. He's supposed to die because he was born in that family. See, this is unfortunate. The factors. The truth of the matter is, I don't think you ever help any. Basically help. So never be in a position to help those that are supposed to be helping. If you're not out there, extend your service. There's never any greater code to go by than Alcoholics Anonymous. But what you're supposed to do, what you're not supposed to.

sh2-09:05

Harnish: Yeah, that reminds me of.

sh2-09:06

Rose: I don't think you're doing anything. When you start to think you're twisting wheels, I don't believe them. I don't believe in going things half ass. I believe what I do is I sit back and I wait. I watch and I wait while you get a clue that something's supposed to be done. I'll test the clue. And if I get a positive reaction from my own computer from what seems to be in the works, then I'll put all my energy in. But I always remember, don't do it because your ego. Check yourself out. Your ego problem prompting you drop it. Drop it easily. You'll flop it if you don't make a mess up you do it because you got to give before you can get you served in some capacity. You serve, you get. There are a lot of other side benefits, such as when you're teaching, you're stimulating your own thinking processes, you're bringing things to the front of your head you never dreamed about.

sh2-10:44

Harnish: You know, we wondered about should the purpose of this be to bring new people into the group primarily, or should we just think about the lower aspect of just helping people with problems? Are we looking for esoteric?

sh2-11:03

Rose: I'll tell you what I the reason I'm leaning in this direction is because I think it is the only direction open today. And I'm convinced of it. And if I wasn't convinced, I was so sick of the pyramid Zen groups that I thought to myself, it doesn't matter if we don't do anything. You sell books, maybe try to sell a few books, because the boys can't handle it. They just can't handle stuff. And we had a few people that could handle it. And they graduated, you know, they went to other tasks like Augie and Frank Mascara and Dave Gold. David's a pretty good monitor, got a good grasp of things. But I, I, I realized that the only you're going to go through a door to the minds of men. And at one time we went the door was Zen, because that was a language understood. But Zen is a psychoanalytic process. And the psychoanalytic process is the method that you go to to find yourself. It'll take you back inside yourself. And so the language changes and you gotta adapt yourself to the words. And this changes very rapidly. From where I was, my point of observation, when these groups formed and as they progressed, we change posters every six months and maybe oftener new drawings, new designs come out for the posters, new attacks on the human mind because the others became meaningless.

sh2-13:03

Rose: And the only poster came out that I didn't like was one with the top up. At the top of the poster said enlightenment. I didn't like it because it meant too many things and proposed we had the answer. So if you don't have the answer for people, the only answer, when you've got an answer, if you ask me a question and I answer you, that answer has to be understood by you or it's not an answer. So you don't throw that kind of a thing out there for the public to as an answer. That's the reason people ask me and I'll be getting lectures about enlightenment. I'd say, hey, you shouldn't ask it. I shouldn't answer You. Because there's no word. There's no way of me, you know, somebody can say to me, what is that take? And I say, salt. I give them an answer. They say, well, what's salt? I can say, God, is it all right to point to you in a.

sh2-14:06

Harnish: Conversation with somebody and say that this.

sh2-14:08

Rose: Guy has the answer?

sh2-14:09

Harnish: Or I feel that this guy has the answer.

sh2-14:12

Rose: I think if you feel that, there's nothing wrong with you to say it.

sh2-14:15

Harnish: Okay.

sh2-14:16

Rose: I think, in fact, if you don't say it then. In fact, people have come up. I know it comes from the chautauquas. And I've heard this from several different people that come to me and say this party said, who is that guy? Because they wondered why people were paying attention to me. They figured that I was either some spin galley or I had something on the ball, you know. But they would say that, who is this guy? Because people listen to him. Those fellows on the farm all do, you know, he says something and they go do it. Why do they do it? Yeah. Do you remember that? You ever hear that? I remember that, but I wasn't here when I said, but I heard second hand. I remember it was almost. It was almost the way I remember it was. It was a suspicion or resentment. It was just like somebody says to me. I said, the guy on the West Coast, I do think there's such a thing as a true past. And he said, yeah, it's Zen. Like you ever find anybody that was a bona fide teacher. He said, yeah, he just got poo.

sh2-15:28

Rose: Yeah. I said, where is. He told me, Connecticut. And give me the draft. Has you ever read a book about. Has some solid substance in it besides filet? Holy shit, you know? He said, yeah. I said, what is it? The Conquest of Illusion. Now I would do not rest until I got a copy of the Conquest. Elysian. I never knew about Quest Publishing Company at the time. But occasionally I had spare time. Would take a little trip. I'd always go to some city and look through the bookstore. The second book House. I went up to New York just on a jaunt. Guy went down to bookstore and turned out to be Sam Weiser's. I didn't even know Sam Weiser. Never heard the name before. So there's a bookstore on the corner here. It was about. I'd say about 30 by 30, maybe 25 by 25. No more than 30 by 30. Kind of square room there. On the table was lab. The conquest of Illusion. I still have it. Hard Factory. I got in touch with Booyah now the same thing. How many people in this group, somebody says to them, what's a good book to read?

sh2-16:58

Rose: How many of them say, the Abidjan papers, if they say, hey, the thing is, you're into a conversation. This is what you're discussing. We were reading the thing there out of this book here about Krishnamurti. He's got a lot of stuff in there. Se books book there he tells what Annie Basalt was up to, what Krishnamurti was up to. He knew a lot of the so called spiritual leaders at that time. He died. He wrote that book in 1940. I don't know if he did, he had that or not. But if a guy like that has something good to say about it, John, this makes a tremendous impression on the public mind. But there's no point in not being able to pass on that conviction. Circle went down to Columbus, Ohio, at his own expense, worked for peanuts down there for two years to start a group. He wasn't capable of starting a group, and I knew he wasn't capable of starting a group. He couldn't talk. He was just a kid, like, you know, couldn't talk with his intent. I never stopped him because of the simple fact that he wanted to do something.

sh2-18:48

Rose: It's better to do something, even if it's foolish. He was doing a lot of foolish things. See what I mean? Now, as a result of his going down to Columbus, Ohio, what the hell do you work at down there? I attended some of these meetings. I'd go and sit there and let him conduct the meeting, you know, and he had some guys really chewing him up. They were older people that read a lot of books, you know, and they'd get in quarter. He'd get all flustered, exasperated. You don't even know what to say. And he'd say. They'd say, well, why do you hang on to this concept? And he would say, I believe Mr. Rose. Of course, that ain't the best thing to say either, is Mr. Rose. You know, there's another thing that catches people. They said, why did they use the word mister? Why did I say Richard Rose? It sounds strange. You never say Mr. Watts. Carl's Castaneda. You'd say Carl Castaneda. But everybody used to say Mr. Rose. I never told him to say that. I never got that started. The only guy don't call me Mr. Rose is Andy Martin.

sh2-19:55

Rose: He called me because, I mean, I never told anybody differently because of the simple fact, I think don't never discourage respect. Don't ever get too familiar with people. And I don't. You know, I don't particularly want to be called Mr. Rose, but I. You know, if that's what it takes to keep respect. Well, it's all you. Me, it's. You know, it's funny when people get in that habit. Why, it's hard to break it. You know, when you call somebody a certain. Certain name is hard to. It's hard to shift.

File sh3

sh3-00:03

Harnish: So if we can't. If we can't present the album system and on the other hand, if we can't talk about.

sh3-00:13

Rose: You can present it, but don't present it. Don't make it your banner. I'm saying what you.

sh3-00:17

Harnish: Okay, now let me say this. I'm thinking. And we're actually going to have to come up with topics like, okay, personal. Personal problems. Dash, personal attitude. Right now we're going to have to be able to just talk on that sub.

sh3-00:32

Rose: No, no, no, no. We don't have to talk. You let them talk. You let them talk. When somebody comes in, they say, this is not going to be a lecture. This is going to be a discussion. You know. You know, you. This is what they want to do anyhow. The people want to go in and give. Lay out their blooming troubles on the table. And maybe there's a few with egos that would like to spout off, okay? Believe me, there's. Nobody will set them down quicker than the other nuts. You know what I mean? If somebody gets too egotistical, they'll say, hey, I think you're. You're preaching, you know, or something like that. Yeah. But to say, hey, you all. You. All you have to do is moderate. Not a monitor, moderator.

sh3-01:29

Harnish: Okay?

sh3-01:30

Rose: Just moderate it. That's all.

sh3-01:32

Harnish: Well, I think that'll take the pressure off the people in the group because we're all strapped for time, although we want to do this, you know, and I think everybody's a little uneasy about having to, you know, no one person wants to say, well, I can prepare a lecture for every meeting. That's why I think Sandy wanted it rotated. Yeah, but if we do. If we. We all I in a position.

sh3-02:00

Rose: Well, I think that's a good idea. You want to rotate the moderator. Yeah, but just crazy to be afraid of. You just get up there and say, we're going to talk about this. And the moderator just keeps order. That's all. He just says, hey, let's not deviate here too much. Bob Ayers run the best encounter group I ever sat in. Department of Public Assistance or some damn government agency was paying this quack psychiatrist to conduct this encounter group that he was sitting in. And he came down to the Pyramid Zen Society and came down to my house and talked to me a couple of times, and I told him what his trouble was, tell him how to cure it. Of course, he never took the steps. The steps were too severe, which was to kid the cop in the ass, and then he'd get his manhood back See, but you're splitting yourself in two so that you can kick yourself in the ass. You can't kick yourself in the ass unless you get a foot around behind you. So you get another person that does it. That's the other barbarians, they're critic. And I said all you have to do is quit kicking yourself in the ass, then you won't be schizoid.

sh3-03:10

Rose: And it had tremendous relief for him. And he start holding head up a little. And so he goes back to this encounter group and said, hey, five minutes. I've had more, more progress in five minutes of talking to Richard Rose and all the euro said he'd been in for a year there in Pitt. And this goofy ass has taken the money, charges so much an hour for all these distressed people. He don't do anything but sit there with a little pencil paper, pretend he's writing, he's drawn naked woman or something on paper, pissing the time away. But that's what, that's what nearly all of them do, you know, they act a little wise. Well, start, mister, did you have any trouble with your mother? Was your mother rude to you? Does anybody here have trouble with their mother? Did any of your mother trouble, you know, I mean, it ain't that absurd, but it's. They let the things shift to where everybody participates. And that participation is one step up for non entity. The fact, hey, the guy has nobody listens to them. The biggest part of your troubles are solved when you confess them.

sh3-04:33

Rose: And that function alone. If you have a group that does that, that function alone, you're not going to see it. It's not going to flash out like a neon light, but you're going to be liberating people by allowing them to talk. The worst thing you can do is go in there and give a lecture. That's a mistake I made. I made up my mind. In the future I'm going to try to put on a workshop in Shady Brook. I hope I can hold myself down and let those people cooperate or participate. See what I mean? That's what's important, talking. They hear you talk, they agree with you, but by God, they walk out. They forget everything you said, but let them talk.

sh3-05:16

Harnish: They remember that a couple months ago our meetings seemed to gel when we talked about our chief features. We went around, we did a survey. One person wrote down what he thought the other person's chief feature was. And right after that point, I think, you know, that we started to come closer together, you know, where we knew each other on friendly terms rather than Just spouting off each other, right?

sh3-05:45

Rose: Yeah. Well, this is good. This is good. For your own benefit, of course. Sure. But I think what I'm saying is that the only way you can run this is to do this, what we talked about. And don't try to graduate anybody. Don't try to graduate anybody. The thing is that if you get somebody that happens to say they've read a certain book or something, like, somebody says, well, I've read Krishnamurti, you know, when I was in Kent there, I talked to people and came in there meeting for the first time. And another thing, the thing that the people in the group did, they sat there like dummies. They never approach anybody. They ignored him totally. That's wrong. Everybody in the group should have went to, like, there's 10 new people. The 10 people. If there are 10 people in the group, they should have picked one of those apiece and went talk to them, said, hello, how you doing? What are you doing? I used to get these people and I'd say, hey, what are you doing? How come you came? I'm curious, or something like that. I'd say, are you interested in esoteric philosophy?

sh3-06:55

Rose: Yeah, I don't know. I just want to see what's going on. I said, yeah, reading books along them. Yeah. Krishnamurti had read Castanedas or, you know, something like that. And I'd say, what would you get out of it? You don't say, oh, that's a bunch of shit. See, they say, what'd you get out of it? And then if they say, well, I thought this. I'd say, well, along the line of this, what, you know, what you think about that? Did this guy produce something that you thought you could work with in the pursuit of your own immortality? Or did we make you better, Better able to get along with your fellow man? And what really was the value? Just keep. And then pretty soon they realize stuff. Your questions will make them realize stuff they never thought of. That's the point. But they're given the answers. And when they give that answer, their conviction has to go with it. They can't argue against their own answer. And then if they say, this is like the guy says, I'm sick, and say, what are you going to do? What are you going to do about your sickness?

sh3-07:52

Rose: And nine times out of 10, they'll.

sh3-07:54

Harnish: Say, I don't know.

sh3-07:55

Rose: I know a guy at Pittsburgh. I had people raising their hands. I don't know if you've been to one of those lectures where I'd ask people I have a list of questions. The people that are happy, very happy, nothing bothers them put up your hands. They put up their hands. I'd say people that are not too happy with their life but feel they could rest their hand to it. They put up their heads. Put up their heads. And you think it very possibly you might have some mental difficulties, and you have a few people put up their hands. And I said, I am incurably sick. Who's in this category? I am incurably sick. See? I said, I am incurably sick. You don't say. Who in here is incurably sick?

sh3-08:43

Gordon: People are coming in sick. And I didn't know what our responsibility.

sh3-08:52

Rose: Is when I'm talking. So is this. What if it takes while you're talking? I don't presume there are going to be sick people. I mean, by sick, I mean raving maniacs or slobbering people or, you know.

sh3-09:09

Gordon: Somebody that's ready to commit suicide or something like that.

sh3-09:13

Rose: But I presume that you may get people. They're philosophic. You may get people who are interested in behaviors. But one thing I can say is, you throw your bread on the water. She said she'd like to be part of the group. And I said, well, get yourself a place locally. Come down, look a place over. You stay at Benwood for a week or so. I said, if you find a job, you find a job. Then you get your own apartment, and you'll be close enough to participate in what we're doing. This is the trouble. Women think that that's a sexual proposition. Everything's a sexual proposition. They get into these groups and they think that the guy in the group, the people in the group are everybody. They can't believe that you're nobody.

sh3-10:16

Harnish: Well, I was visiting this buddy of mine that he did acid too many times, and he ended up at nut house at Woodside in young state. I visited him on Sundays. You got. I mean, that's screwy.

sh3-10:33

Rose: You get.

sh3-10:33

Harnish: I always felt screwy after I left there.

sh3-10:36

Rose: Oh, I can feel them. I can feel them across the street. I can run across the street. I'll cross the street. And I know this nuts coming up the street. I'll cross. I just. You see their hunger. There's like tentacles coming on. They want to touch you. They want to get their hands on you. They want to reinforce. They want the energy, any small amount of energy, boy, they just. It's like old Jim Colletti says, they like vortexes. They just suck it in. Perimeter of tolerance. That you would want to tolerate. See what I mean? You would want to tolerate. See what I mean?

sh3-11:10

Harnish: Art was a good monitor because he was kind of unobtrusive about it.

sh3-11:13

Rose: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean, you know. You know, if you can. You can let the audience. You can let the people in your audience or group, whatever it is, pretty much run the thing if you're alert. But I've seen guys like Lee Gerstenberg just sit there and go to school. You know, he'd just have his eyes half closed and maybe turn each other's hair out practically. And he was tickled to death that he didn't have. And he'd say, well, let me see, where was I at? Oh, yes, yes, this is the pyramid Zen society. That kind of stuff. He wasn't dynamically partaking of the thing himself. He wasn't. He wasn't in there with all four feet. See? He literally. He'd come in, he'd be pooped out. He'd be fucked out or something. And it just seemed like it was to me. It would have been boring if I had his state of mind when he came in there. He just let anybody say anything in. Practically do anything. And of course, occasionally he would. He messed us up because sometimes he got the idea of being horsey. Horsey? Yeah. We had a big faggot the name of Jenkins come in, and he'd say.

sh3-12:32

Rose: The guy said, I don't see many women around here. And Gerstenberger said, yeah, do you think we ought to allow faggots in? Giving the horse laughter, he. That's the kind of confrontation he gave. Jenkins was a pretty decent sort of guy, he admitted. He'd say, you know, I travel in different circles and I have different pastimes, and you people. And I just wonder if I'd be tolerated down at the farm. And Lee Gerstenberger would say, you mean, can you bring your faggot friends? That's nothing. Then the student union or whatever cuts out the allocations and they throwed them out. They just told them flat. They said, you got to come up with 19 or 20 or so many students to sign that. They. You need this space. They were too goddamn lazy to go out with. Now, when Auggie was up there, they hit him with the same thing in Cleveland. He just went out on the street and stopped the students and got up to sign it. He just got a hold of a girl in the same room and asked her to get some people to sign it.

sh3-13:37

Harnish: See, you think we have meetings that we better have it at school?

sh3-13:43

Rose: No, not necessarily. Not necessarily. I think that it's all right if you have them, but I'd stagger them, then I'd have one in and one out, because you never put yourself at the mercy. I got a letter from Weimer, and Weimer says that he is been invited to. He said he gave a talk at his girlfriend's class. She teaches something. And he gave a talk. And he said some of the teachers heard it and were very enthusiastic about the Tatt Society and suggested that he go on campus. He said, because they worked. And what this teacher says was, it's coming back to the campuses. They throwed it out. They throw the esoteric stuff out. But he said, it's coming back. There's a demand for the speakers, and Weimer's throwing a hint for me to go up and talk at you. He said that he didn't want to talk there because it was in where he was doing his salesman work. And he said he'd. I understand what it would, you know, because if they. If they find out that he's a cultist or that's what they. I think if the. I think that any. Any meetings that you held hold you.

sh3-15:24

Rose: I. I get the feeling that majority of. When people have gone into them in a very stupid manner. By stupid, I mean they had no objective. It was. It was like the. Like these Mohammedans going to battle for Khomeini or something. You know, no goddamn sense. Just march, you know. And that's what we've been doing the.

sh3-15:48

Harnish: Last month is just talking over what. What do you want to do with this meeting?

sh3-15:53

Rose: Yeah, right.

sh3-15:54

Harnish: Why are we doing this?

sh3-15:55

Rose: Right. See, the thing is. The thing is that I find that very few people in the group. I mean, in my entire experience in the group, maybe 100, 200 people have the ability to direct a group of people. They think when they hear the word direct, it means a long impression. They mean crack the whip. Hey, shut up. No, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a very subtle thing, which I lack even in sometimes in chautauquas, in fact, meetings. I'll comment. You don't dare comment. A woman comes up to me and says, what do you think of lesbians? And I says, I think that you can't bury them because the earth pukes them up. Boom. She goes around, oh, that guy's pregnancy. They kept pointing the finger at you. Even though one guy might think it's comic as hell, he might laugh his ass off. See?

sh3-16:53

Harnish: Yeah.

sh3-16:54

Rose: But that same Guy might.

sh3-16:55

Gordon: Anyway, I was thinking out of school about, you know, they get giggly about sex when they start talking about something serious.

sh3-17:01

Rose: Yeah, you can't.

sh3-17:02

Gordon: You gotta kind of keep it.

sh3-17:04

Rose: You got. Yeah, you got. You got. We've had some good monitors. We've had some people that were able to set a program. First of all, the guy in charge has to set a program. And then, you know, keep reminding and somebody starts diverting. You have a picture in your head of what you're doing, you know what I mean, and how you're doing it, in other words. And it isn't that you make dictatorial demands upon the group or the audience or whoever's there. It's the idea that you're the chairman and you say, well, we were going to discuss this. It seems like we're deviating from this course. We're drifting away from the thing we intended to discuss here today. Does anybody have any comments on. And always let them seem to take the lead. Always. See? And the monitor has to. This was instructions I gave out from the first day they ever started having meetings in Kent, long before we went to Cleveland. The monitor was supposed to let people talk, but then question them. Be smart enough. But if he's got the eyeballs out on the table because he's up all night the night before, see, studying for an exam or something, or, you know, it ain't going to work, that's all, because he's not interested.

sh3-18:21

Rose: You can't. A person has to be. Now, you can do it. You can do it. You take a guy that's in the habit of rising to an occasion, for instance, after you get so old or so experienced you can. You can. They can hire you and say, here, I want you to get out here and work for Sears and Roebuck. You say, well, what department you going to put me in? The guy said, any. No matter. Any department, see? So you get down and you're selling radios. And a woman comes in and she says, is this radio this, this and this? You say, I don't know. I don't know. But Roblox sells a hell of a lot of radios, see? And this is the brand they're buying so many sales today from this radio, et cetera. You don't have to have a big line of worship, see? That's not the idea, but the idea of sincerity, pleasantness, you know, look upon people until they cause trouble. And of course, I think when they cause trouble, that's when your helpers are. That's why he said, tell them the Monitor should never have to get tough with people.

sh3-19:36

Rose: Somebody in the audience should say, shut up, for the love of Christ. I was given a lecture, and I was amazed. It's always happened. The group members always leave the monitor down. They've left me down in a case like this. And I come up and I'd say, God damn it. You guys are supposed to. He gets a shit thrown at him. You're supposed to come, start talking. You're supposed to say something to show that this guy's. The guy's popping off. He's making fun of the monitor now. And he thinks, oh, everybody's on his side because he's not getting opposition, see? So somebody speaks up and says, hey, hey, bud, you belong in some other department where you come from, the SDS or something. Or something. Make some crack to shut him up. But they don't do it. I went down to Brown University and Boking was there. Who the hell else was there? I was where? Mallinger. Mallinger was there, but Mallinger was in the nuthouse. But we had some other people there. The people. Augie Torak was there. Augie Torak was there. I think Dave Messina was there at the time. They had an ashram in Boston.

sh3-20:50

Rose: They all drove down to Brown. So I started giving a lecture. And they had a Korean Zen monk. Supposedly he was just a Korean. He was trying to start something in the area, and he brought in 10 or 15 hecklers to heckle me, see? And one guy asked me a bunch of questions, and I answered him, you know, and he said. He said, I might as well talk to the chair. He says, I can get as intelligent a question as the answer is out of the chair. And I said, why don't you talk to the chair then? Because you're disrupted. And then a girl, she stood up and rang a bell. She says, what's that mean? I ignored her, and she rang the bell again. And finally, some guy in the audience, some. You know, he just looked like a truck driver. He says, hey, sit down, shut up, for the love of Christ, let the man talk. Now, that's what you need out of your remembrance. So say, hey. Hey. What are you doing here? Who are you? Well, you got your big mouth open for. You try to disrupt something. We come here to hear this guy talk, meaning the monitor.

sh3-22:09

Rose: We come in here to compare ideas. We didn't come in here to be indoctrinated by some clown. But if it gets tough, then have two other guys in the group stand up, right? Stand up. When the guy makes a. If he gets up and says, I'll, you know, produce physical violence or something. I say, okay. You know, okay. Hey, you don't have this. We don't have the dedication. The dedication never showed. It never showed. And I'd look around when this stuff had happened, and finally, you know, this guy came back. This guy came back after I told him. I said, let's talk the cherub. He came back. He hit me another question. I ignored him. He was putting her hands up. He asked me questions. He had his up all the time. I ignored. And finally there were no more hands up. And he was the only one with his hand up. And I ignored him. See? He said, why don't you ask him a question? I said, why don't you talk to the chair? You can get more sense out of the chair. So I nailed him back. And I made these gurus sick, you know.

sh3-23:11

Rose: I came out. I said, hey. I said, let me read you something from the East West Journal, the editorial East West Journal. I read about the editor saying this new age spirituality was a can of worms. These gurus were coming over here from Asia. This is what I read right out the audience. There's a bunch of teachers there from Brown University, the older people, and I was watching expression on their faces. Boy, they thought, this guy's giving them the real poop for a change. I said, they come over here and they come back with. They fly back with a. A whole airplane full of money. And they leave behind them a whole string of little girls knocked up. See, they don't. That part wasn't true because they leave a lot of sore.

File sh4

sh4-00:00 Speaker 1 It seems like you can keep certain types out of the. Out of the meetings by the way you advertise it. But it seems like you're. We're trying to do something. We're trying to attract a certain type of people. And Sandy was talking about how we're helping out.

sh4-00:21

Rose: We wanted to ask him about helping what? Well, from the way that.

sh4-00:28 Speaker 3 Right. Psychological direction, from the way that's worded.

sh4-00:32 Rose: It could be read as if we.

sh4-00:37 Speaker 3 You know, the purpose of the group.

sh4-00:39 Rose: Is to go out and try to be helpful to society almost. And I know we recognize that it wasn't. But some of the wording, it could be interpreted that way.

sh4-00:48 Speaker 1 We were saying that the people down at the farm. There's people here with degrees and, you know, they could be better served helping humanity.

sh4-00:57 Speaker 3 No, yeah, I wrote that for politeness.

sh4-01:02

Rose: Because I'm writing something that's being circulated. But I mean, this, again, is something that you can't. Just like, you guys got a machine running there, see, and you can't be quoted things, but you got to have. That's what I'm trying. No, no, no, no. I'm telling you, I don't want you to read this back to somebody at a meeting since Sandy couldn't come down. We know that because this will show that I've got double policy. And you got to have double policy. You've got to have a double policy. You've got to have a triple policy. You know, if somebody comes into your. Somebody comes to Chautauqua and they come to me and they beg me to heal them. See what I mean? Now, one person, I may say to him, hey, I'm none of that business. And the other person, I may look them over for a while, put my hand on her head. See what I mean? So you can't even. A doctor does this. Every professional man in this country has a girl running interference for him on the telephone. And he has multiple policies. If the people say this policy immediately, you become nice and you say, oh, yes, you can have an appointment on such and such a day if the party is willing to collect some money.

sh4-02:19

Rose: You say, the doctor is out of town. He'll be in Bermuda for two or three years. If it's a party that is on welfare and they call in and they got a desperate case, they need attention. Well, we can't refuse them if they're desperate. But find out if they're desperate. If the child is bleeding to death. Okay, then we'll give him an appointment Monday. And by that time, the kidney blood to death. Why? Won't take care of him. But that's the reason for having a whole book full of appointments. Push them off, see, and say, take the kid to the hospital because I'm booked solid and all this stuff, see? But you have to have different policies for different people. And it's just like in the group we had. And I set up policy for the groups that we had a public group, which was public, and then we had a private group which was a rapport group in which there was an entirely different policy. These were people that were interested in spiritual development, and that was where we went to work. You didn't go to work in the public meeting, you shut up about celibacy.

sh4-03:17

Rose: No, but we get. We've had repeatedly, some guy with a hard on is what to tell the girls that we're all celibate.

sh4-03:25 Speaker 3 Yeah.

sh4-03:26 Speaker 4 Now, that's what fucks you up.

sh4-03:27

Rose: Well, see, that's what. That's what I was kind of worried about.

sh4-03:32 Speaker 3 In fact, they're love.

sh4-03:33

Rose: You can't get this through the guy. Grasp it, you know, Like I come to your house and I go in and I feel my way. I don't go in and say, hey, you asshole. Here, you know, look at your mother and say, well, you old sack of shit, what are you doing? No, you feel your way, see, you real polite.

sh4-03:54 Speaker 3 Hello, Mrs. Hardy.

sh4-03:55

Rose: You know what church you go to? I go to the church behind that, you know. But you'd be polite. And that's the same way when you're approaching the public. You have to. When you first meet the public, hey, there's going to be people coming in there. It's not to talk to. But it's a public meeting, okay? You handle them. Jesus Christ. This is being done all the time by preachers. He can't close that door. The people that come into the church, but he handles every damn one of them. He has ushers that stand in the back of the church. Some drunk comes in, they grab him.

sh4-04:38 Speaker 3 And they ease him out the door, see?

sh4-04:40

Rose: And if the guy starts to fight, immediately getting down one of the steps that they do like that, see? But they get their point across very quietly. And the little angels inside are singing Te dam la damas, you know. But this is it, you know? Now somebody else is going to come up and say, hey, this goddamn church is hypocritical. They got two ushers out there kicking the shit out of a man in front of the front steps, see? They throw the Mexicans down in the basement, which they did out in Arizona made them get down there to go to mass. So then it makes it look like they're bad actors and that's the people's padres referring to. And then so then the masons come to the. The priest drops out of the Catholic church, starts his own Mexican church, builds his own hospital, got himself a girl, got three pieces of ass and dropped dead. But it was because he couldn't handle policy. He thought he'd step out of the church. He stepped out of the church and he wasn't. He wasn't fit for the layman's life. But nothing here nor there.

sh4-05:49

Harnish: November 27, 1981.

sh4-05:55 Speaker 4 And.

sh4-05:58

Rose: If you do too much strenuous thinking or even talking without exercise, you get weak. Now, of course, what he's talking about then is the direction that comes from mental determination, which is very complex analysis. It has to be. You have to make up your mind's old esoteric slogans to Buddha has a man and enjoins you to think, to learn to study everything, to learn to study one thing, to focus your attention on one thing. Then you learn to encompass everything you study every science, everything you get your hands on. And then you learn to think of nothing. Of course you don't learn to think. It's impossible to learn to think of nothing. But you it automatically one day you think of nothing when you do that, when you're over the top. So you're saying that the impressions are.

sh4-07:01 Speaker 5 Sort of the direction.

sh4-07:03

Rose: Oh, no. And you use the word impressionist to signify some idea that you have for motivation which might impress itself on you. When you say impressions, it's not clear whether you impressed it on yourself by virtue of desire or somebody else impressed it on you or environment impressed it on you. But of course you can say that every human being, everything a person does. But anyhow, do. What I go by is I listen to. I get if the guy is dead, like Uspensky or somebody, then I go and I learn all I can get about this guy's private life, okay? The more I read about Gurdjieff, the more I come to the conclusions of con man. I said, well, I'm not going to take it too seriously any cult. And I know there's a lot of cults coming up and Gurdjieff is a mythic. They can prattle that stuff. Then there's no authority to stop him. There are no Gurdjieffian heirs or survivors that can say you're a crap. Gurdjieff didn't. Why? Because I'M the heir to his thing, and I knew what he was talking about, or he initiated me into the. Now, although Gurdjieff was one of the greatest psychiatrists or psychologists that ever lived, he was the greatest when it comes to knowing the human mind in his time.

sh4-08:36

Rose: I mean, even in this time, our time, he's way ahead of the modern psychologist and knowledge of the mind because he could twist it like a button. You push buttons in the people's heads. Now, as far as for knowing the answer, no, he was too much involved in the manipulation angle. And of course, I think that what he had figured on that after he manipulated so much, he'd have a powerful group, and then the group could do powerful things, and then they'd have a secure place to meditate and that sort of thing. But he never achieved it because his expenses got. His advertisement cost a lot and his rent cost a lot. And then he had to keep laying a golden egg. And when he got in the automobile accident, he still owed money on Fontainebleau.

sh4-09:27 Speaker 4 And he lost it.

sh4-09:31

Rose: Everything went down the drain. Now, Ouspensky, Uspensky goes over to England. What convinced me that Uspensky. Little things will convince you of stuff. You give you an idea about people. Uspensky went over to England, he broke with Gurdjieff, and when he got ready to die. How does a man die? When a man has conviction, how does he die? Does he. If he believes in Jesus, does he wait for Jesus? Or does he think, oh, Christ, I blew it, this guy might not exist. See, when you see that action, then you say, oh, that whole life's philosophy isn't worth messing with because he don't believe it by himself under the test of death. So when he was supposed to get close to death, he got in a cab and he had this driver take him all over London, and he tried to remember every place he had ever been, because he believed that would be his immortality. If he could remember London, he would be immortal in London.

sh4-10:33

Rose: Yeah. He was working with this idea of recurrence at the time, and he thought that he might come back and if he could remember all these different places, he could make the right choice.

sh4-10:45 Speaker 2 Could be the best damn taxi driver in London.

sh4-10:48

Rose: What do you mean, choice? Well, he claimed that you had these paths that you float on and there'd be points where the choices had to be made. You made, you know, you didn't come to West Virginia or stay back, you.

sh4-11:04

Rose: Know, which apartment to rent, right?

sh4-11:07 Speaker 5 And he said that you had this choice and the Next time you came back, that same choice would present itself. And you had.

sh4-11:16 Speaker 1 So in his next.

sh4-11:17 Rose: Make your change.

sh4-11:18 Speaker 5 Well, he started, he got. He panicked about that. That's. That's what you're saying. And he was afraid that he wasn't going to work, that his life hadn't worked. So he was trying to prepare.

sh4-11:31 Speaker 2 So that whole theory, though, is so. I don't know, it's so hard to prove, though, that you can see where he'd run into a dead end with that.

sh4-11:40

Rose: Well, I'll tell you something else too, that you see, his. I heard stories of his disciples would be. Gurdjieff had some kind of an estate there in England, and he had a whole bunch of disciples there hoeing the garden and working the garden and that sort of thing. And his wife would be out there heckling them to keep remembering. Now, the thing that happened there was immediately Uspensky and Gurdjieff aren't dead yet. And there's an unclear idea about what the word remember means, see. And Uspensky sunk down into the idea of consciously remembering everything he ever did. And that was not what Gurdjieff talked about. Gurdjieff didn't mean that. Gurdjieff. My estimation was like, it's something similar to what I have in the meditation paper where a person is able to go back and they do see their life as a whole at a glance, because they pick the trauma high points and they see the mistakes they've made and by just you're admitting them, they wipe them out from future re. Experience in this life. So I advise that. I don't advise somebody sitting around trying to think what they did yesterday, because it doesn't matter a damn bit what you did yesterday.

sh4-12:58

Rose: I mean, in the final, let's say absolute condition of life after death or anything else, because it's just like you may have walked through the woods and you got bit by a snake, or you may have an insect bite you and poison. And there's no way you can avoid all these things. You can't predict every insect that's in the woods. So you can remember the insect bite and it's not going to be any good to remember the insect bite, even the name of the insect. So I figured these fellows, when they went bananas, I wasn't too much in them. When Gurdjieff had the rexy, Gurdjieff preached to people he could control events. Now, this is the con man talking. And it worked until he got hit by the automobile. And when he got hit by the automobile, his English contingent of people just walked out on him because he had failed to control the event. And his wife got sick and died. And he went in and tried to save her and to maintain her.

sh4-14:03 Speaker 2 Right. He spent about a month or two.

sh4-14:04

Rose: Just pumping energy, zapping her, trying to keep her alive, because he wanted people to believe that he could control events.

sh4-14:12

Harnish: Well, there was in one of those books he was trying to, they said, move her. She hadn't progressed far enough, so. So he was trying to progress her beyond a certain point that she'd be able to reincarnate.

sh4-14:28

Rose: Yeah, I think that's all crap.

sh4-14:32 Speaker 5 It's amazing how that group fell apart after Gurdjieff died. There became a big Gurdjieff and then a big Ouspensky faction. And they fought. And the Spensky started turning really petty. He wouldn't let the Gurdy. Anybody in his group mentioned anything about Gurdjieff. And there's, like, little cat calls and all this stuff, and he was getting real sick. That's when he went back to Europe.

sh4-15:03

Harnish: It seems like Ouspensky, though, he put such a. He must have been a meticulous person, because it seems like fourth way he's trying to get you to do everything.

sh4-15:16

Rose: Perfectly, you know, and, well, it don't make any. I never. To be honest with you, I don't think I'm that stupid that it was beyond my comprehension, but I couldn't make any sense on these hydrogens, these C influences and B influences. That means nothing. Of course, you know, if you get a. If you're talking to somebody and they use certain terminology, like I use the word umpire or force of adversity and something of that sort. But after this, enough conversation goes on, you get the idea. What's. But this idea of octaves. He had everything tied in, and it was like a big scam, and it sounded good. It was hard to.

sh4-16:00 Speaker 5 Chemistry was the toughest part. Well, I've met people that thought that.

sh4-16:05 Speaker 4 That was all a sham that I.

sh4-16:07 Speaker 5 Was smoking through in there to just.

sh4-16:11

Rose: Oh, they got that. See, that's what he pulled himself when you got down and said, hey, hey, this is a bunch of bullshit. And then he'd wink at you and say, yeah, you saw it. But they don't see you're further advanced than they are. And I got to do this to keep these people, because all they're good for is putting in $1,000 of these, you know, donations and stuff like that. Well, this Is another thing. I don't think he had to do it. He came to this country and Fritz Peters tells him about. He's throwing a big banquet there and a bunch of reporters and, you know, I don't know who all. And he puts an aphrodisiac in the food. And then he has Fritz Peters tell him all the while they're preparing the salad, he said, tell me all the vulgar words in the American language. So Peters is telling him all the vulgar words. So he gets these people together and he feeds them this stuff, feeds them a meal. And Peter mentions they put certain herbs in it that Gurdjieff had brought with him from Europe. And these people were sitting around and he went out and keyed them in by using vulgar words and telepathically.

sh4-17:26

Rose: No, Christ, you get a woman. Hey, I saw it happen right in the store. The man may not work that quickly, but he had them. Gurdjieff had them rolling around on the floor up there. But he was using these words. He was using these words. And I think they thought maybe he didn't know what they meant because he had a foreign accent, you know. But he was throwing them out. And Fritz Peters says they were actually down on the floor. These were, you know, people with money. Then he walks in and right in the middle of it and said, you're a bunch of damned animals. Okay, you had your animal fund, but on the way out, I want your thousand dollar checks in that basket in the hallway or whatever, see? So they all wrote out big checks for him, see?

sh4-18:10 Speaker 4 And he called that fleecing the sheep.

sh4-18:14

Rose: So I somewhat. I had my doubts about, you know, the noble purpose of, you know, was it necessary to do this crap? It better. He went to work. He used to sell rugs. Why don't he sell rugs in Paris or something and send a full net? Also, he went into the hospital pretending to heal people, and they throw him out, throw him out of the country. They got worried about him. That was one thing. They were alarmed at the fact he was going into the hospital. The doctors got alarmed.

sh4-18:50 Speaker 2 So that was the. Mesmerized too. He was healing too many people through that.

sh4-18:55

Rose: But anyhow, it goes back to the. I think just like Don Juan, public opinion doesn't pick people. The path to truth is not necessarily real greasy and easy. It's arduous. You got to hold yourself steady, see? Okay, you pick up a book, Don Juan goes down and picks up the holy mushroom, and miracles result, okay? Everybody says, get me the sacred mushroom or get me the peyote, the jimson weed. I was in Columbus, and the guy came in and he went.

sh4-19:33 Speaker 1 He.

sh4-19:33

Rose: He took the jimson wheat, got the recipe out of Don Juan, and he come to the brink of death.

sh4-19:39 Speaker 4 They call.

sh4-19:40

Rose: He's in Philadelphia, and they called his parents and they told him. They said, if you want to see him alive, you better get over here. You guys get into. They take a course in philosophy or something, and all of a sudden they think they're philosophers. And I don't know really what. He was a mathematician, and he thought he was a brain. And we were talking to him about psychology and stuff, and he said, man is nothing but a bunch of conditioned reflexes. Well, I get sick of hearing this, you know, because there's no validity. But in other words, there's no more validity. You can say that. But there's a. There's a. There's no proof that you are nothing but a bunch of conditioned reflexes. And in other words, there's good chance by just direct knowledge that we are, you know, something finer than the body. There's a subtle thing in the body. It's a more real substance in the body. But anyhow, I could see that he was argumentative. And I thought, I'm not going to argue with him. That's all. So there was three or four people. There were three or four people in the room.

sh4-20:58

Rose: A small room. Cergol was there, Bob Cergol, and somebody else talking. I didn't pay attention to him. So he said something to me and I didn't answer him. So he got insisted. And I looked over at Cergol and I said, boy, I could have swore I heard a bunch of conditions, reflexes. But I says, I just can't comprehend talking to a bunch of conditioned reflexes, see? So I ignored him. And it stunned him, like, you know, he thought, geez, how am I going to cope with this? He's done. As far as conversation is concerned, there's no person to talk to. And who in the hell wants to talk to a bunch of condition. But anyhow, when he left, I shook hands with him. You know, I was just pulling his tail a little. But he came.

sh4-21:54 Speaker 2 He came.

File sh5

sh5-00:04

Rose: We did want to get. We'd be happy you sold a million copies. You know, we'd be in business. But you can't kid yourself. You can't cater to everything, especially if it's destructive to your main purpose. See, our main purpose is kind of under the overs you know, subrosa. And this is what we run afoul of. Just like we were talking about the Sherry Edwards. We invite. We let a person come in as a Taft member. And then they come down here and try to diddle everybody in a place or something. And that conflicts with our real purpose. So. And eventually there's a showdown between the two ideals. The ideal of having a generally philosophic group or that you're not going to discuss sex. And that's one of you. You say it's going to be philosophic, but you're only going to be philosophic about sex. Because that can go on forever into morbidity. You better save your tape there until we get done talking about whores.

sh5-01:29 Speaker 2 Well, that's the best part. I sell these later.

sh5-01:35

Rose: Yeah, this is this crazy old bastard. This was August 8, 1981, right before they picked him up.

sh5-01:51

Harnish? What did you want the policy to be? Because I was never really sure.

sh5-01:56

Rose: What do you mean?

sh5-01:57

Gordon? The policy of being policy on bringing somebody down. I guess letting Bill King.

sh5-02:00

Rose: Well, you can't. You gotta sense it. Everybody senses it, but Bill King don't. Christ, if Bill King says that he wouldn't be married. I mean, he'd have married somebody else. He'd have married an honest whore. I mean, she's a whore. I just mean.

sh5-02:18 Speaker 3 Or she's just honest.

sh5-02:20

Rose: She's not honest. She's not honest.

sh5-02:22 Speaker 3 You know, should it be that maybe they have to read the Albujin papers or at least buy them?

sh5-02:27

Rose: No, no, that don't do a damn bit of good. I had real whores come down here that bought the album papers. That's under dollar ticket. You know, they paid $10 for the book and then they wiped their ass on it. And then they come down, look for boys. The girls, they come down. No, you got. You just got. It's a question of, you know, you don't. It ain't. I don't give a damn about like Letty Shaw. Letty Shaw was wanting a piece and I know it. She wasn't. What are you called? Objectionable. She didn't get her peace and she was still happy when she left. But the other woman knows she's not admitting to Levy. Shaw practically admits she wants a Piece. She goes down, runs around naked in the woods. Not even object to them, see, because those people are supposed to run around making. Climb trees. You didn't meet Letty Shaw, did you?

sh5-03:44 Speaker 2 Yeah, did you?

sh5-03:46

Rose: Oh, yeah, that's right, you were. But that other woman was a troublemaker and you got. You got to pick her. Bill King, he's got peculiar ideas of women. He told. Come to me when he first brought her down. He said, before I saw her, he said, this girl thinks she's a female master. I think she's got a great spiritual destiny or something. Who, Sherry Edwards? Oh, yeah. And Chrysler was. The only thing she was wanting to do is she was a scrub. Scrubbed the floors in a hospital and she had to find some way of helping. She thought that if they listened to the scrub woman, they could improve the hospital methods when handling sick people. And she was. She was just paranoid that nobody was listening to her. You know, infuriated and all this sort of thing. But I don't know where he got this idea of her being spiritual. Pull that door shut, will you? It's cold in here. But I don't want to. The door shut. Some exit. Well, we got three air conditioners which are all piled up on like cordwood on the front porch. We could have had one stuff one in there.

sh5-05:21

Rose: Window blowed the hot air in that room. That's what we did one year. No, there's. Everybody knows. It's always discussed at some time or another. There's two classifications. There's tap members. There are people like Madeline. Madeline is a tap member. She's friendly, she's a nice person. That's all you ask. I wouldn't give a damn about her private beliefs or how many kids she's got, how many men she screws. That's her business. Not here. Not here. She don't come down here, pick them off. See what I mean? But then you have people who are esoteric. You see, you pick up the. And you're not going to sell the magazines of those people. You might, but I mean, the hope was always to have something in there that would. Some little thing that would give a clue that a person with some searching background would pick up. There's something going on in between the lines. But our first little clues were little poems written by Baldrige. And they showed that there was something going on. That was sheer insanity. But I don't care, you know, like on tap meeting tat days. I don't care. Food comes down.

sh5-06:57

Rose: As long as they're. As long as they're not just like somebody. You don't dictate who comes or should talk. And it's a little different policy there. If they want to go off in the woods and screw each other, that's their business. They're not. They're not necessarily TAP members. They're just attendees. You got somebody you want to take off in the woods and screw? What are you right there?

sh5-07:29 Speaker 2 That is allowed during the chautauqua. I'll go in a roll.

sh5-07:35

Rose: We just continue Chitauk. If you're wasting your pencil.

sh5-08:08 Speaker 2 Almost seven out of the car. I brought them down for you. Anyway, the lecture at Akron.

sh5-08:17

Rose: Is it. Is it the tape itself?

sh5-08:20

Harnish: No, it's a copy I made. No, I mean, that's a copy on. Oh, here it is on other tapes. Oh, that came out pretty clear, too. Yeah, I wasn't. I'm never finishing what.

sh5-08:40

Rose: Starting it.

sh5-08:41

Harnish: Here they are. You want to hear a little bit of it?

sh5-08:43

Rose: Yeah, why don't you. Why don't you pull that other one out? More tension.

sh5-08:49 Speaker 4 I mean, is there good tension and helpful to you?

sh5-08:55

Rose: Wow. Sure. Sure, there's tension. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'd have to think of a specific incident.

sh5-09:02 Speaker 4 Well, just in the case of, like, all those laws, you know, I mean, sometimes they make certain laws. You can't tie your own shooting, and then that stops your progress.

sh5-09:10

Rose: Well, the tension occurs then in possibly defying the law and coming out. The tension would result in you defying the law and saying, hey, you're not going to get away with this. I'm not going to do it. That's all. So that causes tension either way. But I think that this is the name of the game. Of course, I don't agree with this much, but the name of the game is as to. It seems like lawmakers, they know they're passing laws against themselves, they're going to have to abide by those laws, too. And it just gets more and more complex and more inhibitory. But there's one guy that looks it over, it's like a chess game, and says, 10,000 or 100,000 people, you're going to make it. That I am, because I'm going to run between the raindrops. So whatever it takes, I'll come out on top. And this is a test of, you know, you might say it's a selective. Selective breeding that the ones that don't disappear, they retreat and don't participate. That's the reason I believe in. It's necessary to Fight, necessary to fight. You can't just lay there and suffer. You got to come out fighting.

sh5-10:28

Rose: And this builds up. And it builds up your transmutation of your quantum energy and keeps that production of chemicals. And where it comes from, I don't know. I don't know where that stuff comes from, but I got a feeling that comes from the nerve glands. I don't know that ganglia developed that. I don't think they develop it. I don't think there's that much blood supply to change the chemical.

sh5-10:55

Gordon: What about in the case of seeming quantum leaps? You know, like where a person has some sort of experience and they're like overnight they have an energy, their energy jumps, you know, it's multiplied 100 fold as a spiritual experience.

sh5-11:10

Rose: Yeah. Well, this is a result of that. See? This is a result of it. It's like the pictures of. You see, if Flash Gordon or these guys in the Star Trek or something, they got a machine, they stand in it and a certain condition is developed by electronics or magnetism or something into which they are projected. Their consciousness at least is projected. And maybe their bodies are projected into another dimension. This is caused by another form of tension. Of course, we don't. It's fiction. It's pure fiction. But this is what happened. We know that a man can be studying algebra in school and his head will light up. You know, when you realize you labor with a problem, and then when that becomes apparent to you, it's boom. It isn't just a gradual knowing. Yes, I know that two plus two equals four. And then next year you find out that two plus two plus two equals six. No, no, it's boom. You know, the whole pattern, the pattern becomes easy, and somewhere along the line that'll happen. And this is your quantum leap. See, from through that quantum energy leaping into another dimension. That's mental dimension.

sh5-12:39

Rose: Of course we got any way of cataloging and categorizing, but we do know that from that time on, that person can function at another level, another plateau of thinking, and he can think in. As I said, some people can only think in terms of objects. And other people can think in terms of abstractions. And other people can invent a word or find a word that represents a. An entire philosophy. And you just use a symbol for it, such as existentialism. Boom. That thing registers, and you can throw those words against other words that represent entire philosophies and come up with almost an instant appraisal of what is incorrect and incorrect in the philosophy of the world. But you can't do it by sitting down and minutely arguing and advancing points on every philosophy, say, well, now we're going to take as existentialism, now we're going to take libertarianism or fundamentalism or whatever, and then babble, babble, babble back and forth, arguing this point and that point. No. Boom. These are symbols that have been checked out. They mean you know exactly what they mean and you weigh them against each other and you come up with a decision.

sh5-13:59 Speaker 4 That's an intuition about the right.

sh5-14:02

Rose: It works on that. Now, let's see, that's the idea. But I think what happens is it's a mental dimension to be able to do it. It is an intuition, works all the way up the line on being able to choose whether you're choosing words or whether you're choosing concepts, abstract concepts. And then again, I think what happens is it's just like in a psychedelic experience. In a psychedelic experience, you enter another dimension and it's a mental dimension because basically there is no physical dimension. See? In other words, you finally reach the point where you can reach a real dimension. I say that it's commendable. I'm not saying it's good to be there because you're like a bird at the bottom of the ocean. It might look beautiful, but you can't. You can't, right? You can't live there and you can't stay there and you got to get the hell out.

sh5-15:13

Harnish: What would you call sanity dimension?

sh5-15:21

Rose: By not humanly defying sanity, There is only true appraisal. And it's just like a person you run into, a person that we consider stark or av nuts may be perfectly in tune with another dimension. And this is the reason that I think some of the primitive peoples were smarter than some of the people that were, you know, advanced in symbolic learning, so to speak. Direct mind, like I said, direct mind appraisals. The Indian, the primitives used to respect insane people because the insane person was not tied to the same paradigm. And he may come out of his babbling and rambling, may come prophecies. So they listened like the sorets of Russia and the American Indian and the Eskimo. And I understand some of the. Nearly every primary, like the shaman of those people, nearly all of them are very much interpreting the jargon of idiots or people that were off their nut from some reason or other, you know, from dancing too long, chanting too long or whatever, or smoking too long. Some of them are just congenital nuts. Congenital idiots. I don't know what happens in the. It'd Be interesting to know whether if they ever get enough time to take the nerve these.

sh5-16:59

Rose: This clearing chemical in the nervous system and analyze it and find out the different proportions of different types of people and the rate of the neural rate of clearing such as like it's almost the speed of light, you know, in a human. And what would it be in a Cali cac. What would it be in a congenital idiot? Now negative. Maybe if his is opening and closing slower, he's got more intuitional insight, he's aware of more, but not expressive. So he can't communicate. This is what I really believe about most lunatics, nuts even what I call them, the two year old class, the imbeciles and idiots, is that they know, they know a hell of a lot and they can't communicate it. And somewhat their feelings are hurt by the fact that they're being looked down on. And they're aware of everything practically that's going on except that they know they've had the brand put on them and they're stuck with it. And so they retreat, they retreat back into their little world. And I don't say they progress. They probably retrogress because of the fact that our belief status is such that they should retrogress.

sh5-18:26

Rose: But they may have a longer. I know that they think. I know they're much awareness, aware.

sh5-18:33 Speaker 4 You're talking about a circumstance class. So you're not talking about every Kalicack that comes down a pike, right?

sh5-18:39

Rose: I think every Kalikak knows these nuts. Yeah, yeah. And I know they. I know that they. I think you may have classes of people that have been that are. That are they, you know, like he got hit in the head with a hammer or something like that, or an automobile accident or something like that. Chemistry. Those people who were sane and were destroyed later, those. I doubt seriously if they have the intuition. Yeah, I doubt seriously if they do. But the idiot who hasn't had any brain injuries, what he is, he thinks very clearly. But he's like in a word, jail. He has no way of expressing anybody through the bars, so to speak. With the other idiots, there's no need to worry about communication. They know. But of course they lose the ability for symbols. And this is brought out, this is brought out a lot because I've known some that were artists, they would draw well, I guess it's all bonded to you. The only thing wrong with him is he's got no window of communication with what we consider the outside world. But I believe that it's impossible to tell how Far they go, whether they're further ahead of us than they're not in their ability for direct mind communication.

sh5-20:24

Rose: Just difficult. That's not necessarily a muscle. Huh?

sh5-20:31 Speaker 3 That's not necessarily a muscle.

sh5-20:36

Rose: What do you mean, a muscle?

sh5-20:37

Speaker 3 Or it's not developed necessarily.

sh5-20:41

Rose: Most things that you develop in the psychological line are not muscles. We talk about ESP as a muscle, as a faculty. It's pretty much the opposite. Generally, it's building up a situation where something can function. And it may be removing things rather than applying things. It may be building up an ability to pull stuff away from the field of attention.

sh5-21:13 Speaker 2 See, we're opening up channels and letting things come in.

sh5-21:17

Rose: Yeah, that's what I meant. Being able to pull the rubbish away from the doorway. And to give you a practical example, you want to sit and think about calculus, a calculus problem or something. But what comes in your head? Here's an idea we can make $1,000 on. Well, here's an idea, you know, that just dawned on you that if you had a certain type of car, you could pick up a certain type of girl, you know, and you can't get anywhere with this calculus problem until you get this rubbish away from the front of your head. And it will seem very seeming for a while. It will seem like the girl in the car or the external thing that you're working for. The million bucks or the thousand bucks or whatever it is is much more important than the calculus problem. Say, oh, I'll get the million, I'll come back in, I'll read this goddamn book. See, but it doesn't work that way. You never attain anything, you never get the car, because you've never trained yourself to obtain anything. And that means to have an expanded doorway of perception and whatever that entails. It doesn't necessarily direct mind, just simple intuition or just simple getting all the factors, all the data.

sh5-22:35

Rose: You block the door, it shuts everything up. So it's not necessarily building a better antennae, see, as much as it. Is that what I call a selector switch. Being able to tune in, to turn that selector switch to where you want it and shut off. Shut off. That's what a selector switches for. Shut off other channels.

sh5-23:01

Harnish: Well, that's easy to do until the hormones hit the bloodstream. Okay, and how do you. How do you clear that stuff out of your brain?

sh5-23:09

Rose: Well, you have to have. You have to have previous experience with the hormones getting you in trouble. And then after so many previous experiences, you say, damn it, you know, either I'm going to get control of the situation or chop something off, see, because that's not me. You make up your mind, which is you. Whether your balls are you or whether your brain is you. I think we all go through this thinking. I know I did. When I was 21 years of age. I just made a poor judgment on picking up a girl. And I thought, Christ, if I got to go through this the rest of my life, I just need to be dead. I'm going to study female psychology or I ain't going to mess with them, that's all. Because I've been outwitted by a whore. So you make up your mind that your emotions aren't infallible. And it comes through very clear to you. You can't trust your own emotional decision making, that's all. So you have to bypass that. And then you have to make a decision and work on it and say, well, you know, I like to have the car and I like to have the girl, you know, but I ain't got a goddamn buck to my name.

sh5-24:35

Rose: So I'm going to go to college. I'm going to study this goddamn calculus and it'll be a drag, but. And after you set your head to it and after you say, well, I'll postpone the date, the dates I'm going to have, then you get interested. You get interested in something frees itself. Once that decision is. Once the commitment is partially fulfilled for a period of time. Then you say, hell, I kind of like this stuff. And you enjoy studying math? I know I had a daughter that she came home, went to school right across the street. And she'd come home to her. Right upstairs to her books. I should come from school. We'd have to pull her down the damn steps to give her some exercise. Nobody drove her up there. You'd have to fight with her to get her to come down and do something, see, take a walk or, you know, Kathy. Kathy be going out on dates, you know, wanting to go out on dates. And she was. She was bucking her head hunting for the man on the white horse and never got any. He's always winded up being insulted or stood up or some goddamn thing.

sh5-25:44

Rose: Ruth would just laugh. She'd just laugh at you when you talked about boys, you know, dating or something. She was totally absorbed in her mathematics. Of course, I ain't saying that was the smartest thing on earth because, you know, she didn't. She left part of her. There's things you have to learn. You have to live with other people. She didn't know quite how to respond she did get to college.

sh5-26:15 Speaker 2 Do you want me to continue this?

sh5-26:17

Rose: Yeah.

= File sh6

sh6-00:00 Rose: Do you want me to continue this?

sh6-00:02

Rose: Yeah, the philosophically mistaken or the that's. And this becomes a form of. Possibly. The word magic should always be associated with power. That all of these things are connected with power. And the highest form of magic is the one that creates. And in other words, by create, I mean the ability to produce stuff from mental energy. And I don't know how far you can hit that button. The first guy, what's he doing? He uses illusions. He uses. He creates illusions. He creates physical illusions, like a hologram, like, you know, that sort of thing. Or mirrors on a stage look like the disappearing so and so. Or the woman who gets sawed in half or something like that. That's basically crude illusions. And of course, some of them aren't secrecy. Some of them are pretty stupendous. Like they defied people, defied explanation. So there's a certain power behind it, because the power is. They're basically bullshitters and they're making money from quackery. See? They're charging you. Charging. See it? And then there's other people who are taking. In other words, take the field, hypnosis. This stuff permeates. We draw simple analyzes, like the guy with the mirrors on a stage.

sh6-01:45

Rose: But everybody's a magician. The guy that goes down and sells storm windows or something is a magician. He's creating an illusion. He gets up there and he goes. He goes, blabbity, blabbity, blab. And the woman that takes him into the house and they sign a contract for 10,000 bucks. And somebody standing on the sidelines realizes that they didn't need those storm windows, and that's the last goddamn dollar they had in the bank. See? How did it happen? It was by hypnosis. It was a form of hypnosis that they used. And so we take these incidents that permeate everything. I was watching the TV this morning. I went by, and some guy was healing people, you know, and, you know, every time I see it, I get. I go bananas. I think these sons of bitches, you know, pulling this crap on year after year on people, you know, pretending they're doing something. And it's all. Well, maybe momentarily they feel better. You know, they get up, feel better for five minutes, and back in the old rut. But this is. The philosophies are put out. The politics is put out. It's all bullshit. And the religions are bullshit, See?

sh6-03:05

Rose: And this is what I mean. But the other form of magic. The other form of magic is sin. There's energy from the release of that, it's like coal. Coal is, I'd say, the shit of the forest. It's compressed. You release it, you unveil it, you unveil the bullshit. And there's a release of energy and it's a dynamic form of energy. And when a person is able to read it, it causes action in them to a certain extent. But it's only after they're able to see that are they enter another line of work entirely, another line of magic which is creation. I don't know whether it's worthwhile or not, but it can be done. Were the Kahuna creators or were they just dispellers of illusion? They were all three. The Kahunas were all three. From one, I can read of them and of course I'm reading somebody else's book. I don't know. But they used the illusion by their witchcraft was illusion. And by that I mean they told people they were going to get sick and they got sick. And the thing was so strong that they were able to create illusions in people's head that didn't believe it.

sh6-04:33

Rose: And William Seabrook, in his book on witchcraft, he mentioned that people were taken in, didn't even know about it. The spell was cast without telling them. They were caught because they were subject to that illusion. Then the destroyers of illusion were the other Kahunas who had the formula for killing the witch. In other words, they held the mirror up and said, hey, we see what you're doing. And then the force returned and knocked out the party that was doing it. Made it impotent, at least, see? Rearrangement, potent, see? But then there was still a higher form of magic which didn't involve ego or achievement or destruction of somebody through anger or revenge or greed or something of that sort. This was the highest form of Kahuna, which was a creation of circumstances, just the creation of a better circumstance, like healing somebody. No motive. No motive, no money. No money. There's no motive, see? No hate. Because it's doing something for somebody, see? And there was many of these things that happened. I mentioned different races. I think they hit upon something intuitively as a group of people, and they work it and it works.

sh6-06:02

Rose: Each little separated civilization out through the Pacific, little islands that didn't communicate with each other for thousands and thousands of years. But they had their own separate little system of miracles going on, and we didn't pay too much attention to them. But there was errors. My boy. My brother Vince was located out in the Guadalcanal area, Solomon Islands. I don't know what the hell they were out there and stayed out there for three or four years during the war. And he said, he talked about them having a human skin on a drum. The drum would only play when the moon was full. Of course, they ascribed it to magic. Maybe it was, I don't know. But when the moon was full, the skin tightened up and it was a human skin. That's what it was. Tattooed, had tattoos on it. They tattooed skin before they took it. But that was all tied up with their magical beliefs. We talked about the Japanese earlier today. The Japanese with their suicide as a ritual worked possibly for the benefit of the Japanese people, was a dynamic national dynamism resulted from it. But they got their way. They got their way by just down to the line of resistance, either achieve or die.

sh6-07:36

Rose: And to any formula, no matter what you want, if you want to succeed, that's what you have to do. You have to make up your mind you're going to achieve or die. Not saying, I'm going to put 10% of energy in this project and 10% in nine other projects, see, and if I slip in one, okay, this will come out 20%, maybe 30%, I might come out. No, no. You have one priority and you achieve it or die. And everything else is secondary. So these are all what I consider tribal. Tribal systems of magic and creative. They're create. They create. They change the future for themselves. Of course, I don't know if there's any good comes from changing everything. That's the whole point. The Japanese were probably better off when they were before they. If it had stayed the hell away from Western technology altogether, they'd probably been better off by decision. And I knew the bloodstream didn't have time. You only got two or three seconds. Boom. Yeah. The bloodstream is not going to circulate food energy that fast. But I had no explanation, no way of explaining how this would happen. See how you get that energy there.

sh6-09:14

Rose: And the reason for bringing up the neurotransmitters that they discovered by biochemical analysis indicated that if something could come through there at the speed of light, you could get the energy likewise at the speed of light. See what I mean? It could be coming in there in a flow at tremendous speed.

sh6-09:38 Speaker 3 Where is it coming from?

sh6-09:39

Rose: Glands. It has to come from the glands or it has to come from collectively. From the entire body, perhaps. See, I wouldn't think that would be.

sh6-09:49 Speaker 3 I mean, there's no precedent for that. Like in nature, if you take animals, I mean, there's a certain amount of energy in it that animals have in those glands.

sh6-10:00

Rose: They can't.

sh6-10:02 Speaker 3 I mean, I've never heard of an animal coming up with a superpower like that.

sh6-10:07

Rose: Oh, I don't doubt what they could. I don't doubt what they do when they're being chased by dogs, or I think they must, because I've seen these animals that possibly they get a very fatal shot right through their heart, and they'll keep moving for maybe a hundred yards. And it's almost impossible in a way, but we've had that happen here. I shot a cow one time, my brother did, coming up the road. And he was right about where Dawn's garage is. And I'm driving the cops. I remember. And I told him, I said, we can't contain her to have a fence. I said, you just have to shoot her. So he blowed right down the road. He didn't give me a chance even to get out of line of fire. When I saw him fire, I thought, jesus, I'm dead. Because he was shooting right in my face practically. And the cow ran clear up to almost where your chicken coop is, fell over. We skinned her and cut her. She was bullet right through the heart. Right through the heart. The impact alone, you know, you just figure Gary Gilmore, the heart, supposedly. And he didn't kick.

sh6-11:22

Rose: You know, there's no. I've seen hogs shot. And as long as the neural system isn't impaired, if you shoot, like, generally, a hog always kicks. But I've seen a hog shot with the same gun. Joe shot it out here one time. And they'll kick for 10 or 15 minutes. If you cut their throats, it's like in a butcher shop. They stick them. Stick them in the throat, you know, to bleed them. That hog will kick them in the hot water. After all, they're scalding them. They'll still be kicking, see? And I presume it's conscious to a degree till the last drop of blood's out of it. But you hit him in the head with a.45 70. That's what he was shooting. The hog just went to sleep, just fell over, boom, no motion. And it just blasted the whole nervous system. There was no transfer. You try it. Like if you hit him, hit him in the head in a vital spot, they drop. They just drop right there, and that's it. And of course, the body will react to a certain. I think, too. Here's another thing I think about animals is a chicken, for instance, with a head off, will continue to kick.

sh6-12:36

Rose: And my belief there is that There must be a ganglion or something that still was somehow causing reflexes or allowing reflexes.

sh6-12:49

Harnish: Those are supposed to be any spinal reflexes, I think.

sh6-12:52

Rose: Yeah, that's a medulla, then, See, in a human being.

sh6-12:57

Harnish: No, I mean, like, you know, the message goes from, like, the extremity to the spine and back. And it never goes to the brain. It's called a spinal reflex.

sh6-13:08

Rose: I see.

sh6-13:10

Harnish: That's what I've heard, anyway. So that would explain their legs kicking while their brain's gone.

sh6-13:15

Rose: Yeah, it seemed like the energy had to be stored someplace that wasn't physical or something. Because you could store up energy or store up a quantum and you can expend it. But how could you know? It has to be the reason I came up with the belief because that's all it is. I have no proof. I'm not biochemically proven. This, see, is. It has to be something. It's in the line of volatility or subtlety. The fat isn't subtle. The fat is a crude form of energy. The blood veins going into the fat are very tiny. They're very tiny blood veins. And that means that those blood veins deposited that stuff over a long period of time. You don't get fat in a day's time. And it will take an equal amount or more time for it to take that fat back through the blood veins and use it in the form of energy. So you figure, where's it coming from? Muscles. Muscles are capable of action because they're mobile. You know, they move. So it lies between the muscular energy. Or the energy deposited in muscles and. Or in glands. And the glands have an instantaneous injection.

sh6-14:32

Rose: Some of them are directly next to a blood vein. And they inject directly into the bloodstream. But others are ductless. And this is where the ones I presume are the ones that are doing the damage. They have no ducts at all. How do they convey that it comes from these? Because I think it's. Serotonin is a byproduct of pituitary gland. See what I mean? So that's the reason I say the biochemists have corroborated what I suspected. But these neural energies are coming from ductless glands. And if serotonin. I don't know where dopamine is supposed to be manufactured, but I presume it's another gland or the same gland. And if this is true, this is where the ladder of transmutation occurs. The food transmutes into fat, muscle and some glandular energy. When you get to be a certain age More glandular energy, and then the others from there on, you have to generate it. And that's the whole process.

sh6-15:43 Speaker 3 It is. It's like, for instance, with animals. Animals do have serotonin, and it's dependent to a certain extent on how much we're talking about being awake for longer periods of time. And we found it the more light that they're exposed to, the more they'll like, say, chickens. They'll lay more eggs if they're exposed to more light. There's a. There's a correlation between the period of time they're exposed to light and the amount of serotonin.

sh6-16:17

Rose: Was that caught as a serotonin? What's going on? You think it.

sh6-16:20 Speaker 3 There's a correlation there? It's either more or less. I forget which, I'm not sure which.

sh6-16:27

Rose: But they figure that that's what causes. The chicken has the serotonin. The same thing we have?

sh6-16:32 Speaker 3 Yeah.

sh6-16:33

Rose: Do they state that same type of thing? Right? Yeah, I didn't know that. But of course, you know, in this business of chickens, a lot of them have dynamite feed too. That makes them. If they conducted those experiments, just holding a constant type of feed, and then they.

sh6-16:55 Speaker 3 It's not just chickens. I mean, it's like with horses, they're more likely to produce sperm.

sh6-17:02

Rose: You know, when they want to feed them.

sh6-17:06 Speaker 3 They keep a light on overnight or something.

sh6-17:08

Rose: No kidding? I didn't know that either. What the hell is it going to say? Yeah, I remember what it was now. I remember reading in Fate magazine or someplace where there were people on earth that didn't sleep. And I often wondered, you know, why they don't get into checking some of them out, but they just didn't sleep and they weren't nervous insomniacs. You look, anybody can't sleep, you know, he's in trouble. But I remember they were talking about interviewing some of these people and I asked them what they did at night. They just said they read, which meant that they had to have a replacement of energy because, you know, reading is. That's hard on the nervous. The eyeballs are. That's nerve rods in there. So that would get fatigued unless they had some kind of a chemical that was recharging them.

sh6-18:18 Speaker 4 One theory is for why sleep is supposed to be biologically a protection to the animal. Like a lot of animals, like cats sleep 14 hours a day. Because when their ancestors in the jungles, they had to sleep. That was form of protection. So apparently humans sleep a lot less than other animals, because why would this sleep be protection? Though, because an animal, if it was. It was awake and running around, would have more chance of being caught. Oh, I sleep in a burrow or something. It would protect them.

sh6-18:49

Rose: Just asleep all during the daylight hours and came out at night time.

sh6-18:54 Speaker 3 I think there would be less. They wouldn't have to eat as much.

sh6-19:01

Rose: Well, the cat, a lot of those are predator types. So they're maybe only eat one meal a week and they sleep 24 hours after they eat. Maybe they go off and digest it that way, I don't know. But, you know, all that stuff has it. The funny thing about it, it goes back to a tremendously well organized blueprint. What time is it? 4:30. How long ago did that appear in the FIA magazine? Oh, hell, I can't remember. I read that five or ten years ago. There's cases. Yeah, you tell me. Every once in a while, people that don't sleep.

sh6-20:08 Speaker 1 What'd you say, Paul?

sh6-20:15 Speaker 3 One day they just.

sh6-20:20 Speaker 1 Did they try to do it because they wanted to or what?

sh6-20:24

Rose: No, no, it's just natural, folks. This guy was a farmer, I think.

sh6-20:28 Speaker 4 In World War II or something.

sh6-20:30

Rose: He got drunk real bad and he couldn't sleep.

sh6-20:32 Speaker 4 And he could never sleep after that. He never wanted to sleep.

sh6-20:38

Harnish: It seems like that'd be a very boring life.

sh6-20:41

Rose: Oh, it'd be hard to put in the time. It'd be hard to put in the time. I've been amazed when you talk to people that are. I knew a guy one time, met him up here at Medina, Ohio. And he looked like his Nichols guy. That's in. What the hell is this show he puts on? He advertises the Instamatic camera, Polaroid cameras. James Garner. Yeah, and just a double for him. I was working in his Roadhouse nightclub, you know, like he'd come in there and get his whiskey every day and get a shot.

File sh7

sh7-00:04

Harnish: We were talking about some people like that up in Newton Falls.

sh7-00:05

Rose: But what amazed me was he wasn't debilitated. He wasn't. His intelligence was there, you know, keen witted. He wasn't a drunk. He wasn't a drunk. Of course, I'll tell you, you can get a lot of food out of beer. If that's what he was drinking. I think the guy could practically live on beer. But I don't know about. For 10 years. Of course, I don't know how long that had been, that he was totally. I think it was gradual withdrawal. But I said, you think you ever go back to eating ordinary food, meals and stuff? Yeah, hell, he said, if I get hungry, I'll eat. He said, just got easy. He said he got up in the morning and he was faced with the idea of peeling potatoes and frying him. He took a shot and went to work. He came back, he took another shot. Of course, he could have stopped in the restaurant. I guess he did for a while. But I think that gets delivered after a while. I think that's what happens. They'd get him all real quick. That's what got Kapitka. Kapitka looked like a young man all the time.

sh7-01:19

Rose: And I never saw him eat too much. But he was hell from martinis and drink the booze, not in great quantity. That's what surprised me. But he just drank. He did it consistently. He'd work all day and come home. I'd be sassed and he'd come in and he'd throw his dirty clothes on. He'd be carrying a martini around, drinking it.

sh7-01:42 - Speaker 1 What about the yogis, then? Just breathe.

sh7-01:45 -

Rose: I don't.

sh7-01:46 Speaker 1 I can't get it off in the air.

sh7-01:48

Rose: I can't. You know, skeletons and then somebody. Well, Teresa Newman. You know a story of Teresa Newman?

sh7-02:01 Speaker 3 She lived on wafers.

sh7-02:03

Rose: Yeah, she lived on the wafer, the chameleon, you know, and. But of course, I think there's a little chicanery there. You got to watch what comes out of India because they're playing con games. They get people to believe and they want the people to believe they're supernatural or something. Sneak it in at night.

sh7-02:30 Speaker 3 What's the difference between transmutation from intellectual work like reading and schoolwork and that sort of thing, and spiritual transmutation, or is that the same thing?

sh7-02:40

Rose: No, there's no such thing as transmutation. From. What I'm trying to get across to you is everything you get, you come through your body. See, you can't read a book and you Hear people say that. But that's a figure of speech when you say, boy, I got a lot out of that book. It's really added to my mentality, this course in algebra or math or something like that. The math didn't add to your mentality. The exercise added to your mental ability, see?

sh7-03:07 Speaker 3 Yeah. So I'm wondering. I used to be super heavy into school and books and being a total egghead. And after I moved out here, I stumped that I haven't read in a couple years. And I've gotten heavily into just physical work and getting dirty and that sort of thing. And I wondered if maybe I was better off in the old days being an egghead. Well, a scholarly type instead of just what kind of intellectual transmutation is worthwhile and what is just, you know, you become an egghead, and that's useless.

sh7-03:40

Rose: I don't say that you got a lot of intellectual mudheads. It don't necessarily mean that you reach a point in transmutation. A guy can get to become like Martin. Martin was a brilliant scientist. Brilliant scientist. Then he jacked it all off. He built up his quantum energy and piss it out through his pecker. And this is what you got to watch, is you got to know both directions. That's the reason I had that chart when I was talking. I had a chart and the arrow went up from the body, but it also went back down into the earth. See, each one of those lines, each one of those lines clear up to the spiritual quantum line connected the other side. It was like an electrical circuit. You connect those two, you went back into the Earth, see?

sh7-04:27 Speaker 4 I mean, you can get. It seems to me you can get in a trap, too. An intellectual thing where you're just working within a certain boundary, you know, within certain limits that you've set for yourself. And you're not.

sh7-04:41

Rose: It's a mechanical. It's a mechanical existence. But they had to use some quantum energy to get there. See, this is the idea. There was some transmuted energy got them there. You don't. You don't get. You don't become a scientist in physics and not have developed some quantum energy. But the biggest part of that was developed when Bob was a kid. He was 19 years old when he was conferring with Einstein. After that, he wasn't a damn bit of good. He didn't do anything. After he got married when he was about 20, I was the end of it. That time was sex and boobs. It isn't. I often wondered, John, sometimes when you talk, you keep Talking about what's good for you. I never asked you and yet I should say, well, what do you mean by what's good for you? What's the definition of good? What is good? Is it possible that back there along the line someday somewhere you neglected to transmute? So you can't transmute the food without the exercise. You can digest it, but as far as we're building a body or building a glandular system or anything else, you take people that, for instance, I've seen them, people sit around university and eat overeat, you know, and study and that sort of thing.

sh7-06:25

Rose: They'd eventually get torpid, they might even develop thyroid trouble or pituitary trouble and the next thing you know they'd be ineffectual as hell. They'd be two doors from a serious illness. Or they develop the. They become semi smart and they decide then that they reached a certain goal. They could breeze through these classes or lessons and then they'd start dating or getting into excessive sex along any line and it didn't seem to bother them, so they kept it up. But that was the end. They didn't realize it. It's just like when you come to the end of the line, you don't know it's the end of the line. You know, the cessation of action goes on for years and you see nothing's happening. And you'll hear people say it after a while you'll say, Jesus, you know, I thought I'd just keep moving. The funny thing about the human mind, the appraisal progress is when a person's moving, he complains because he isn't moving like you do. And when he realizes he's moving, he stops moving because he thinks he'll keep moving forever. And these are the traps that you got to watch for, both of them.

sh7-07:44

Rose: You got to somehow be able to realize that you're moving. You got to be able to somehow realize when you stop moving and then start moving again, find out what starts you and stops you.

sh7-08:03 Speaker 4 That's why you have to be continually reevaluating your position and where you're at all the time. You can't just set yourself a course, decide you're going to do this and then go ahead because you're going. I mean, nine times out of ten you end up off the track somewhere.

sh7-08:24

Rose: Yeah, but you watch, you can set that as a syndrome. That whole thing you're talking about can be a syndrome. This idea of being that you're scared that you're going to get down to one Lane street or that you got to have.

sh7-08:35 Speaker 4 Why are you talking about being scared of that? I'm just saying, I mean, this is something that I found myself is that, you know, I decided, okay, this is what I'm going to do. You know, before I know it, I've completely forgotten what it was I was.

sh7-08:50

Rose: Going to do and I'm out of real or something. Yeah, well, this is what. One of the things that attracted me to Gurdjieff was. This idea of self remembering is that you can decide to do something and when you decide to do it, it's not just saying, I'm going to eat spinach. No, you're going to say, I'm going to follow a certain line of life pattern. And immediately it's just like he was asking me about who's at that member, who ain't, who should we. White nutrition being salt as August to say there are nuances and millions of nuances in between there that you just can't say it is this 2584, we'll call it strictly 2584, right down to the fraction, see? So consequently, what happens because of those, all those factors that set in, you drift on one third of the factors. Before you know, you're drifting away. In other words, it may involve thinking a certain way. It may involve being able to reject things with a certain technique. When they pop up, say, being able to hold your head on certain things day after day. Maybe such a thing as keeping a little piece of paper posted in your cabin or something to remind you of something that you wanted.

sh7-10:12

Rose: Just like. Let's talk about Denise. You has a sign inside of her automobile that says, keys printed real big. Always be conscious of your key. She's blocked herself out about 100 times, I guess. Boom. So this is what happens to people. They set themselves a certain direction. But little things. But little things. And I watch it. I know what's going on because guys will come to a group meeting. We have a group meeting, and they'll come in and their main motive for being there is the waiting. Boom. They sit down in the chair and you see them. Ah, peaceful. Let's see, where were we? Well, we had her in bed. We had her pants off, you know, we strangled her with a stock. And she won't fight back. And little by little, their mind is completely awake. You know, they hear me rambling in the distance. I wonder what that. That fucking old fool's talking about now. But then it comes back, you know, they say, Jesus, Yeah, I presume as the weather continues and we'll have more pleasant circumstances for sitting. Or else we could get down in the Chautauqua building. We could get down there more pleasant, see?

sh7-11:59

Rose: And also we probably have more privacy. And I think there will be more life generated in these meetings. More vitality. This is what we need to. I know some of the boys in Pittsburgh will talk about a rapport meeting. You can't have a rapport meeting until there's vitality. There has to be vitality development.

sh7-12:22 Speaker 3 Would it be better to sit before lunch instead of after?

sh7-12:25

Rose: No, I don't think all this. If you eat at 12, three hours. That's the reason I chose 3:00. Of course, we didn't eat till. Damn. It doesn't bother person should two hours. It should be out of your stomach. That's what they say.

sh7-12:56 Speaker 3 Yeah.

sh7-12:56 Speaker 1 The indoors usually puts me asleep.

sh7-12:59

Rose: Yeah, well, the air. You don't. This place here, see, the roof is close to the roof and the roof is hot. And you can't. We could get a fan in here. We got fans all over the place. It's just a matter of hooking them up, I guess. But if it's Rainier, if it's hot down there. I only think down there. If you get into insects down there.

sh7-13:26 Speaker 4 Shouldn't be too much of a date. Now.

sh7-13:31

Rose: You can't move. Then all of a sudden you wake up and you see that it really was that time that you saw on the clock. Does that ask for projection or just you got. I've heard about the last 10 years and it's always strange. It's happened to me several times.

sh7-13:45 Speaker 2 It hasn't happened in a long time.

sh7-13:47

Rose: He says that that's some kind of astral projection. And that you could roll out of your body if you wanted to, but that you shouldn't. It's always a spook. I can hear voices in the background that aren't anybody that I know. It's just voices. I never know what the hell that is. I know.

sh7-14:02 Speaker 2 It's as if you're awake and you're paralyzed.

sh7-14:06

Rose: Yeah. Can't move your body. I wonder what that was.

sh7-14:09 Speaker 1 Yeah, I read the book on astral projection about that. They said it's sort of a transition from the astral to calls or whatever. And at that point you still have your body, but it's of no use to you. It's exactly the same thing when you're running in your dreams and all of a sudden your legs are just like. You're trying to fly. You're trying to transcend the experience and go into another state. And you still have your body with you. And that fine state can't control that.

sh7-14:48 Speaker 2 Course you've got the beliefs of the body.

sh7-14:51 Speaker 1 That's why the beliefs of the body.

sh7-14:54 Speaker 2 You're actually projecting the body's laying in there. I used to do a lot of flying around at night. I'd get tangled up in these goddamn wires. Or I'd fly up on a roof and couldn't fly down. When I get up at a stand, I'd be afraid to take off. Didn't have a big enough Runway. You see.

sh7-15:17 Speaker 3 Do you know those are dangerous? Like can something get into you when you're in that kind of toilet?

sh7-15:23

Rose: I think these formula are well worth remembering. These what I call the thaumaturgical laws for celibacy and stuff. I don't think anything get bother you. I think when you deliberately have sexual relationships, you deliberately draw things into you, into your psyche as well as in your physical body. You see, this is the whole thing. There's a technology that's coming that's going to approach the spiritual. It has to, it has to. Because people are going to be able to see it, see the correlations. And when they start measuring human energy, they're going to find human beings losing a lot of energy. If they can find the apparatus for measuring energy, just like as serotonin, the production of that, find out where it goes and what's going on. I think they'll eventually be able to check a person before he goes into the whorehouse and when he comes out, find out how much he's been tapped.

sh7-16:33 Speaker 4 See if the tappers allow it.

sh7-16:36

Rose: Huh?

sh7-16:36 Speaker 4 If the tappers allow it.

sh7-16:38

Rose: Right, right, right. See, this is the whole thing, this is the point. No, they reject it. See, the medical profession is like you said, the tappers has already convinced the medical professional that this is. We made a giant leap from spiritual guilt over to scientific agnosticism. And there's no such thing as a loss of energy, a loss of quality. You just exercise stimulated. They call it stimulating yourself. You know.

sh7-17:14 Speaker 1 What'S amazing is the amount of droids they say.

sh7-17:20

Rose: What'S that?

sh7-17:22 Speaker 1 The serotonin, the amounts of it are just so small and so much effect.

sh7-17:29

Rose: Yeah, yeah, but I, I believe that the.

sh7-17:37 Speaker 3 It's like, it's like acid. It's amazing how small acid is and.

sh7-17:42

Rose: The effect it has.

sh7-17:46 Speaker 3 Micrograms, 200, 100 to 200 micrograms, which is what? Millionth of a gram?

sh7-18:04 Speaker 4 You see that picture over there? That's kind of to me, that's kind of like a representation of all the little creatures inside of a person's head.

sh7-18:30 Speaker 3 Society's turning into a bunch of.

sh7-18:32

Rose: Her brother. Her brother brothers. Yeah. You notice some of them have very distinct faces, and others have no faces. And whether he got tired of drawing faces or whether he did that purposely, it's hard to tell. Also, some of them are shadows.

sh7-18:53 Speaker 1 Some of them have shadows.

sh7-18:54 Rose: Yeah. Some of them are dark shadows only. Yeah.

Footnotes

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