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1976-Definition-of-Zen-Kent-State

2026-08-23T07:06:55Z

Dmadmin: /* Footnotes */ 2nd correction footnote. Re: date.

{{Page header}}

[[Category:1970s]]
[[Category:Zen]]
[[Category:Kent State]]
[[Category:Distributed]]
[[Category:Has Talk Page]]
[[Category:Audio Poor]]

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== Data Template ==


{{Recording Data
|record-date = See talk page for date of talk
|location = Kent State University
|number-tapes = 1 cassette. Tape 1 (side 1 = 31 minutes; side 2 = 32 minutes)
|source = N
|other-recorders = Yes
|other-versions =
|dvd-number = 2
|number-mp3s = 2
|total-time =
|transcription-status = SH distributed 12/25/2011
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks =
|audio-quality = Headset required. Annoying sound of squeaking tape recorder through some of side 1 and all of side 2. Lots of inaudible portions even with headset. Had to be transcribed because the noise is so annoying it’s impossible to listen to. Plays more slowly that original, slow speech, low pitch.
|who-is-present =
|}}

== Notes ==

SEE TALK PAGE

1. Date of tape – corrected to 1976 according to Al Fitz from PZ newsletter - see Discussion page.

2. Noise

3. Missing Q&A

== Side 1 ==
00:00

The talk tonight is about the definition of Zen. The reason for this is that over the years the definitions in the mind of the public have changed. First of all, it takes awhile to understand them, and I find that they’re continually fluctuating by virtue of use. The way the word Zen is used now causes a different understanding of it by the majority of the people. Of course, it’s questionable whether the word Zen will ever be understood or even defined for the majority of the people, or even the majority of the people who are interested in it.

I have found a considerable variance between many of the Zen movements and the stuff I studied from a personal teacher. This man took issue with things that are repeated in many books on Zen today. Some of the things emphasized now – and probably emphasized for several hundred years – were authenticity by virtue of a rubber stamp, and claims about their lineage. The man in question refused to talk about his lineage. He said, “I’d give it to you if you want, but I think it’s nonsense.” But this seems to be one of the keys in Zen literature, and in the basic understanding by the public about Zen.

02:12

This happened to me quite a few years ago and at that time hardly anything was written about Zen. In fact, I heard about the man in question, his name was Pulyan, by word of mouth. I had gone out to California and ran into some fellow who had been digging into Zen for a few years, and he knew both Sokei-an and Pulyan. D.T. Suzuki was writing books – he was the only authority on Zen at the time for which you could buy books or get them at the library. Later on, Alan Watts came out. , The first time I ran across Watts was in an article he wrote in an underground newspaper about beatnik Zen. And I had a feeling that he knew something. He was either not revealing it, or he was trying to write for a mediocre public; he wasn’t going to come out with the whole truth about Zen, if he knew it.

03:37

Since then, movements have sprung up around the country. And the philosophic public is inclined to believe that these movements are all valid, and that possibly the ones that are the most valid are those who wear the clothes, the uniform, or who claim some sort of oriental patronage, as if they came through some school.

=== Bodhidharma’s four principles ===
04:08

Now I’m going to abbreviate that and to come in from a different angle, because we can’t review all the books. I don’t know how many of you are acquainted with Zen, but the outstanding authorities, I think, down through the ages, were people like Huang Po and Bodhidharma. , Now Bodhidharma defined Zen, and you’ll find this in Suzuki’s Zen writings. According to Bodhidharma there were four things Zen had to have or it wasn’t Zen: First, that it was a separate transmission outside of the scriptures; second, an absolute avoidance or disregard for words and letters; third, direct looking into the soul of man; and the fourth of course was arriving at Buddhahood – they contemplated that it could be done.

05:50

The first one implies transmission, and transmission implies more than one person. Now any person can reach enlightenment, possibly. And when I repeat this, people don’t understand, and they think I’m violating some premise when I become so critical of certain Zen movements. But anybody by themselves can reach enlightenment, if they’re persistent enough and if they dig enough – to find out some of the things they have to do, things they have to avoid, and to put total energy into a given project.

06:37

But the Zen system endorses cooperation with someone else. So does the Christian system. And I draw a parallel with the sayings of Buddha and the sayings of Christ: "The way, the truth and the life" are synonymous with "The buddha, the dharma and the sangha" – which means the truth, the discipline and the brotherhood. The way is the discipline, the truth is the buddha-nature, and the life is the brotherhood or the apostolate. Now don’t let me insinuate that Buddhism is Zen or that Zen is Buddhism. Possibly both emanated from the same source; one was a total discipline whereas the other was a layman’s discipline. And as time passed they became separated and there was no relationship at all hardly between them.

07:49

So when we use the first term, “a separate transmission outside the scriptures”, it doesn’t just apply to Buddhistic scriptures; it applies to any scriptures, any dogma. So as soon as you start seeing a prolific number of books put out on the subject of Zen or any system – especially if that tends to become a dogmatic system – you have to be a little suspicious of it: Are we getting into words and letters once more? Are we starting to build a vocabulary? Do we now find the foreign words and phrases as enchanting as Latin was a few decades ago?

08:42

Transmission implies that it’s possible that a person who has, can extend. Even if he can’t completely transmit the experience, he may be able to help. If he’s not a teacher he may be a member of a group; and being in a group, whether it’s Alcoholics Anonymous or a Zen group, results in an objective mutual help for all participants. But the ability to transmit is a necessary part of Zen. It really isn’t Zen unless there’s somebody there who can transmit.

09:27

The second thing of course is getting away from words and letters. You throw your books away; we don’t need books. And the third is going directly into the mind of man, or the heart of man, or the soul of man. Of course you don’t know you have a soul until you go within and find out what’s there, but we presume that whatever is in there – just go in and you can find out.

09:53

Now there’s a reason for this particular statement of principles. Zen is an elusive thing, and down through the ages there were many advocates or devotees or whatever you want to call it in different countries, but then it disappeared. It disappeared in India and appeared with Bodhidharma in China. It thrived for awhile in China and disappeared from there, and it’s now in Japan, predominately. But regardless, the same theory or soul of Zen, the same theme, has been maintained through the ages, because of these precepts that were laid down. And these precepts weren’t laid down to inhibit behavior, or to try to get you to walk the party line; they were there to keep it absolutely pure of dogma, and from becoming an institution. If it became an institution, it automatically stopped you from thinking; you would rationalize acting a certain religious role, rather than actually being religious – spiritual or wise or philosophical, or whatever you want to call it.

=== Zen state of mind ===
11:20

So it comes back to the fact that Zen is not any part of any religion. Zen is basically a state of mind. I read one of the Zen writers, incidentally, who defined it as that, and this is very accurate. Zen is a mental technique, a mental discipline, and again, it is not part of Buddhism. Now a lot of people are Zen-ish and don’t know it, perhaps like George Bernard Shaw – a person who has an unusual amount of common sense and wit, and was able to bring his point across, not by argument but by digging and pointing out and jabbing a little bit here and there, until a person becomes aware of another state of mind or another frame of mind.

12:15

I maintain that Zen is basically nothing more than common sense. Now most of us don’t like something that is just plain common sense. We would like to have something mysterious and complicated, which could be bought for a thousand dollars, a hundred dollars or ten dollars – wrapped up and shipped in a package. But it must be mysterious and something tremendous and intricate.

12:41

And basically it is – something tremendous and intricate; and at the same time it’s very simple, just common sense. We hear so many talks, and there are so many books written, like Benoit – complex books on the intricacies of why you should be allowed to think along Zen lines – these tremendous apologies of Zen by psychiatrists on “why it might be practical and tolerant” to think along Zen lines. This is just another book of words.

13:21

But actually, we are students of the truth, number one. The purpose of a student of Zen is to find the answer. Of course, he doesn’t want the answer to how many calories are in this piece of bread, particularly. He wants the answer to all of life, the answer to three major questions: Who am I? Where did I come from? Where am I going? And these aren’t answered too accurately by the dogmatic religions. They swing off into storybook adventures and tales. And incidentally, Zen also has its crop of little anecdotes, which I don’t think have too much meaning. And I wonder of course why. I think the word Zen became magical for a period of time, and anything that was written on it would attract attention.

=== Common sense ===
14:32

Basically the whole thing is everyday common sense and practicality. And if it doesn’t start with that then you can’t pursue it, in my estimation. I notice that a tremendous lot of people want to pursue a profound religion, a profound philosophy, while hanging on to a life of non-common sense. They want to keep up whatever role in life they’re playing, as though they didn’t dare let loose, and at the same time they say, “Hey, tell me what I have to do to get this.”

If this is the total value of life, then I want it. And possibly in order to get it – it’s not going to be something you could package in the form of wisdom you can memorize or learn. It’s basically something that changes you; and in the changing you become. So the whole problem is that if you’re not ready to drop the stuff that isn’t common sense, you’ll not proceed. And you’ll write into every line you hear, or every proposition made to you – to shape your head, to get you to try to confront yourself, to analyze your own thoughts – you’ll only accept what you would prefer and like. If you think it’s okay, if it flatters your previous concepts, you’ll accept it; and if it doesn’t you’ll reject it.

16:28

This happens at every lecture. There’s always something I say that somebody will challenge. They’ll say, “Ho. If you’re not in favor of this particular form of the modern liberal movement, you’re not enlightened.” Someone who hasn’t stuck their nose in any form of philosophy or spiritual endeavor will tell me who’s enlightened, by virtue of whether I’m politically popular. They’re going to hang onto what they wish, demanding that God be defined in term of liberalism.

17:11

Zen uses plain common sense to reach absolute knowledge. We’re not talking now about just knowing who you are in a psychological sense – but we might begin with an intense application of psychology and self-analysis, to find out who you are, and find out where you come from and where you’re going.

=== How people are swayed ===
17:42

Now, how do we determine whether we have common sense? Everybody thinks they have common sense. Everybody thinks in fact that common sense is what the most people think and do – and this isn’t necessarily true. Most reactions of people are like goats – they are led. The majority of people are led – this was said by an eminent theologian, Cotton Mather, and by an eminent communist, Karl Marx. Both of them made the remark that the masses are incapable of governing themselves. But people think that by democratic vote, that’s all it takes. So we’re voting on stuff celestial and psychological. And we’re coming up with voting on what sanity is and voting on what God is – and when you vote him down, he’ll disappear, obligingly, and not cause us any more trouble.

18:53

Common sense is not being fooled by clever advertising. I’m not buying a car because it’s pretty, or a product where the advertising hints that you should buy it because it’s popular. The big theme is, “Everybody is buying this today.” And people rush out and buy it, and pretty soon everybody’s buying it – but only after they saw the advertisement that said everybody was buying it.

19:34

Now we say, “Sure, we know all that – and we reject it.” But when you go to the store and come home with a bundle do you ever say, “How did I come to buy this? Did I see a commercial? Why did I pick this one instead of the one that wasn’t advertised?” It’s become almost a religion: Things are advertised grade A, and if you pay a lot for it, it’s got to be special. Don’t buy anything cheap, because it’s second-class material. How do you know? But we have become brainwashed into following these yardsticks of popularity. And of course there’s the appeal that the product will make you popular with the opposite sex. Almost all of us will buy the toothpaste with the ad that shows us the smile before and after: the girl running, the girl coming back, bad breath, Clorets, physical culture. And people go to school because they see a glamorous advertisement.

I had a fellow tell me one time – he was a native of Scotland and I ran into him in Denver, Colorado. I was working there when they first started working on streptomycin, and he was there trying to save the last part of his lung. He had been shot down over Afghanistan, fighting in the Afghan war for the British. I said, “How did you ever wind up in the British army?” He said, “Those blasted bagpipes.” They came into a Scottish town playing bagpipes and he fell in line. “The next thing you know,” he said, “for a shilling a day they got me.” But what got him was his inability to see through this fake glamour that was built up. There was no glamour on the battlefield. He said that when he got shot down they told him, “Well, you’ve lost a lung.” The thing he guided the airplane with went through one lung, and he got tuberculosis in the other. The British had no way of treating him so they just dropped him.

21:59

But a lot of things are done like that. How many people today are working in uniforms? Maybe they even have to supply or pay for the uniforms themselves, and work for less money. Guards at plants – they think they look glamorous or handsome. And nurses too. I’m not throwing rocks at nurses, my wife is a nurse – not that I might want to throw a rock or two there – but I saw that she was working for nothing. Because she was continually flattered into believing she was Florence Nightingale of the modern times – she was out working miracles and healing the sick and all this sort of thing. And she was doing the dirty work as a scrub nurse for a doctor who made a thousand or two thousand dollars a day off her labor, while she made twenty-five. But nevertheless she was staked into this by virtue of the fact that she didn’t have the common sense to see she was just being used. She could have made more as a cashier in a Kroger store.

23:11

We go in for things like name-dropping. Name-dropping divorces us of our common sense sometimes. If we hear that Joe Garagiola the ball player endorses something, we don’t think for a minute that he’s a rascal – everybody likes Joe Garagiola. Or some movie star, let’s say. Loren Greene is advertising dog food now. I never saw a dog on Bonanza, or I might think he had some experience with them. They get a race car owner to advertise STP and this produces a profitable return for the advertiser. They pick these people not for nothing, but because this has a psychological effect.

24:22

Also we have this business of deference for authority. When you get down to your daily life, I don’t care where you go, someone is taking advantage of your refusal to apply common sense; it costs you at every turn. I remember they used to have a commercial, “Ten New York doctors say …” Remember that one? It was Carter’s Little Liver Pills. And then the Pure Food and Drug people come out and said, “These aren’t liver pills.” They were little more than a placebo, a mild physic. They had to take them off the market as liver pills. But for years that’s what sold Carter’s Little Liver Pills.

25:14

So now we have, “Modern psychiatrists say ...” Well, we know what modern psychiatrists are saying because we finally got a few of them who will argue with each other. The old school of psychology was originally one of experimentation with an open mind. Then of course it became Freudian, and then behavioristic: trying to determine by graphs and that sort of thing the substance of a person’s mentality or thought. That was Skinner. This of course was thrust aside by new schools of thought such as Fritz Perls and Thomas Harris and these people. And some of them were idealized and considered great authorities, great pioneers. But the amazing thing about this country is that somebody is always writing biographies of people as soon as they die, or even before they die, and we find that some of these eminent authorities were extreme alcoholics or extreme psychotics. Even Fritz Perls’ own people claimed he was psychotic, aberrated.

=== Pretense ===

26:41

Another thing we’re snowed by is pretensive terminology. Now there’s a reason for this drift I’m taking because this all applies. We apply these same thing to philosophy, and movements, groups, cults or what have you. We apply the same common sense as you would for sorting out the cheapest toothpaste or the cheapest aspirin – when they say you have to have a quarter-grain of aspirin and it doesn’t matter what you pay for it – rather than buying something with a fancy title or that comes in a fancy tin box. If we don’t have the common sense to take care of the food we feed our children – we’d rather listen to an advertisement – how can we possibly get the common sense to sort out the religions or the cults – that are supposedly reaching out beyond the established, old, dogmatic religions for a brave venture into total knowledge? We’ve got to have some real common sense. We’ve got to start from the bottom.

27:55

So we take this thing of pretensive terminology. The drug prescriptions used to be written in Latin, supposedly so they couldn’t be duplicated – hardly anyone knew how to read them. I think the most important reason they were written in Latin was so they could give a prescription to a druggist that was a placebo – and the victim didn’t know the difference and thought he’d been given something that could cure him. It covered up a tremendous lot of inadequacy. If he gave the wrong medicine and it killed the patient – they couldn’t read his writing, possibly. The druggist made a mistake or the doctor made a mistake, but they could translate it to suit themselves. The same applies to the legal profession. Why do they have everything in Latin? I think for the same reason; you had to have a language. Now we have too much language today – our technical language, in chemistry and electronics and that sort of thing. We’re getting all this vocabulary, and half of them are about you having things to cover up, for the purpose of certain trades.

29:36

It goes clear down to eating in the restaurants. We always have French dishes – this spring I was over in Egypt and I noticed they had everything written in French. They called the fish a loup de mer francais or loup de mer anglais, but it was always the same fish – they only had one type of fish. They had beef and that was written in French too, but it wasn’t beef – it was water buffalo, and it was like neoprene. But it was a fancy word. They put towels on the table and napkins and fancy silverware and that sort of thing. But you were led to believe you were living it up by eating something that you didn’t understand.

30:51

Now we go back further into everyday life, and we find that everybody is interested in fooling everybody else. This is where the basic thing of truth begins. If you want to find out the ultimate truth – how can you avoid the daily truth while still being basically truthful?

[break in tape] <<<< combine prior and following paragraphs

== Side 2 ==

We need to live in a truthful manner in order to be consistent with ourselves and with our friends – because these are the mirrors of ourselves, even if we’re going the trip alone. If we’re hated by our family and our friends because of our own misconceptions, how will we be able to see ourselves clearly without this yardstick?

We hear the jingles and commercials on the radio or television and we listen to them until they become hypnotic – and you go out and buy a Pepsi-Cola or whatever they’re advertising. You also have the lucky coupon deal. The people who sold aluminum siding for houses used to go around and say, “It will cost you $5,000, but for every customer you get for us we’ll knock $50 off the cost.” So they get a customer for the fellow and he knocks $50 off their bill – and he charges the next one $5000 plus another $50. And this type of pyramid thinking is very common – getting something from sending in your neighbors, mailing in so many box tops, some little contest or name-guessing, and you get a Cadillac or lord knows what, a free subscription to a magazine.

02:14

Also we have the psychology of repetition; this has been something known for a long time. It was one of the first psychological gimmicks, whether in salesmanship or in learning. Keep repeating and repeating until all of a sudden the victim agrees. Another is the admonition that some product will take care of everything. Snake oil seventy or eighty years ago would heal everything.

=== Spiritual sales gimmicks ===
00:26 <<< old time was this – paragraph was moved down a couple

I want to give a parallel now with how some of these things affect a spiritual or philosophic path. Some people prefer to use the word spiritual and some call it psychological or philosophical. But I’d like to show you the parallels between this everyday advertisement and the philosophical or spiritual advertisement.

<< end of moved section

02:52 << the next paragraph was re-written by SH for sentence structure

For example corresponding to the jingles, which are repetitive and hypnotic, now you have chanting. Likewise, the psychology of repetition is exercised in mantras – repeating the mantra you can become convinced. The coupon deal is when you get through a course and become a teacher, and then you can take a rake-off. And how many little brochures that we might pick up claim that this or that practice cures everything? They take care of your peace of mind and ensure that you become wealthy, and that everything you do is alright. And in fact some mantras are guaranteed to bring you anything you want – just keep chanting them.

03:41

Now of course in sales we have a thing called subliminal advertising – suggestions that are hypnotic; they appeal to something that actually carries you away, without realizing you’re being carried away. Then we have the thing that’s called addiction, where you’re given a free sample, a free pack of cigarettes, and the next thing you know you’re hooked. Corresponding to these, for subliminal advertizing in esoteric matters we have what I call “zapping”. , This is subliminal; you don’t know it’s happening. Sometimes the results take you quite a ways; it’s like the cumulative effect of pot – you accumulate a lot of this hypnotic indoctrination, and before you realize it you’ve been zapped.

05:05

Healing is another one. And healing is very true – a lot of people get healed; the apostles healed. But it’s a subliminal sort of thing. Very few people know the mechanics of healing. But they like to leave the impression that they’re the right arm of God. My conviction about healing is that it’s human energy projected – you’ve got to have it before you can spend it. And if you don’t have enough of it, it’s nice to go into a crowd and tap some of the crowd’s energy.

05:54

Another technique is suggestion: fear suggestions and suggestions that placate. This corresponds to the hypnotic advertisements. We’d like to hypnotize people with the fear of going to hell – at least that’s what happened in the past. Or saying, “Now that you’re a troubled soul because I’ve scared the wits out of you, let me placate you with the blessing.” And they get five dollars for a trip to the tent. As for addiction: how many of these movements stand out as unique, all-curing philosophies and tell you this explicitly? They’ll take care of everything. All you have to do is trust yourself to the guru – give your guru your karma. You may be slightly insolvent but all your cares will be taken away.

07:02
=== Psychology and psychiatry ===

Now let’s go to this business of understanding the mind. The third directive of Bodhidharma is that we go directly to the soul of man – this is what happens in Zen, and we’ll get to that a little later. The second one was to avoid words and letters, meaning you don’t read textbooks. Now I’m continually reading books of psychology – against my own advice – because invariably there’s some new word thrown out, a new system, a new technique, and I’m tempted to see what might come out of that. But all I find is that each book is a new vocabulary – because there’s a certain jealousy among men of letters, especially psychologists. I find that while they in turn curse the previous vocabulary, they create a new one. We were talking about psychoanalysis at the house today – for me the word means the analysis of the psyche, the analysis of the mind, and psychotherapy to me is the therapy or the treatment of the mind.

08:41

But there’s another meaning. Freud said, “Whenever you use the word psychoanalysis, you’re talking about me.” He was supposed to be the father of psychoanalysis, and as of now it means the Freudian type of thinking. Psychotherapy means the Adler type of thinking. And we get down to people like Karen Horney and Viktor Frankl with his logotherapy. Then there are Thomas Harris and Eric Berne with their transactional analysis – these are magnificent-sounding terms – and book titles like “I’m Ok and you’re Ok and we’re all perfect bums together.” That’s tempting when you first see it, but when you analyze it you find out the man is criticizing the parent while by becoming the parent with his book. He never stops to think that he’s the parent, and he has to tell you how to live.

09:56

And the same with this business of Skinner and his robots. Common sense tells me that if we are all robots, we don’t dare trust a robot to condition us. But Skinner says we all need to be conditioned, so that the society will be perfect. How can a robot or even a million robots decide what is perfect, what is Utopian?

10:33

Frankel, with his logotherapy, said that man could not live without meaning. And when I first saw that in his book I thought, “Wonderful, this sounds like Zen; here’s somebody who wants to find out who he is.” But when I read the book – he didn’t want to find out who he was. He found out that people live longer in concentration camps if they created a synthetic objective, so he says go out and create yourself a synthetic objective. And then you’ll live longer or you’ll find more meaning in life. And he left his wife behind, because she was less important possibly than his manuscript; he could hang on to this book and survive the concentration camp. Freud left his sisters behind; his reason was to start up his clinics – because they were in the packaging business, they were not in the business of finding the truth.

11:37

So if this is true – some of you may throw rocks at me and say I’m mistaken; maybe so. But regardless, we’re creating a Tower of Babel in the science of the mind – which is going to be hard to sift and sort, to find out which one really knows something about the mind. And I think we do have to have some understanding. You can’t avoid the use of terms, you can’t avoid reading books, because the books are stimulating. And I say this, that if you don’t have anything else to read, read a book of psychology. It will bring you a better knowledge of yourself, even though in the process you have to prove the author inadequate. It will still cause you to think about your own thoughts, and bring you in a little closer. But I sometimes wonder how far we have come in psychiatry and psychology.

12:39
=== Correspondences ===

I have a list of words here and their correspondences.
<blockquote>
The couch Confessional.
<br>

Psychosis Sin
<br>

Egotism, one-upmanship Pride
</blockquote>
That’s the big crime today; everybody has to stop it. Why?
<blockquote>
Greed, insecurity Covetousness
<br>

Satyriasis, nymphomania Lust
<br>

Anti-social attitudes Anger
<br>

Hypothyroidism Laziness, sloth
<br>

Competitional frustration Envy
</blockquote>
We’re running through the seven deadly sins and seeing how they correspond with today’s language. And what are they, basically? Are they bad, in either case? If they’re bad should you be convinced of your guilt – if you feel you have to be cleared of the psychoses or the sin in order to be functional? I think of course that if you admit you have the psychoses or the sin you can start to overcome it.

14:11

But some of these things were built into us. This one-upmanship – God help us when we drop it; that’s pride, and pride is necessary to keep the rooster going. He has to make a fool of himself for forty years; he must run that race in order to earn his way. If he discovers that there’s foolishness in that fact, he’s going to give up. So we need a lot of roosters.

14:40

And this applies to spiritual matters too. You have to hope that you’re going to heaven even if everybody else goes to hell. There is no democracy in Christianity. The road to heaven they used to say is narrow, the road to hell is wide. You’re going to vote yourself in? Are you going where everybody’s is going? Now of course no one believes that these days – that the road to heaven is narrow and the road to hell is wide. But it’s true that the percentages of the people who get into deeper phases of philosophy are much smaller than the people who play with little ideas, who go occasionally to some sort of intensive retreat, join some movement, pay for lessons through the mail or something.

15:40

So consequently, the field does narrow. And of course, if you’re investigating things, this has to narrow down too. You have to start sorting. You can’t endorse everything. This is one of the things I run into in my talking: everybody wants to be endorsed. A lot of speakers get up today and they’re careful not to tramp on any toes. I’m not running for office. I don’t care if you vote for me or not. The only thing is, I do hope that if I learned something, it can be available to those who somehow feel there is common sense in what I have to say. And then maybe go a little further to do something on their own.

=== Personal search ===
16:33

Now I can give you, again, a little history of my own adventures in this regard. I was raised in a conventional religion. I studied to be a priest; and I was seventeen when this somehow didn’t strike me as being common sense. I saw a lifetime objective; they wanted me to sign up for life. And I thought that if I’m going to sign up for life I’d better be sure of what I was doing. I wasn’t sure that they were wrong – but I just wasn’t sure that I had exhausted all other possibilities, to do the thing a little better. So I got to looking around. And I looked, as I used to say, under every rock. Don’t be too proud to look under rocks. Sometimes the words of idiots and lunatics are more important than the pretensive words of theologians. And at one time they worshipped the idiots in Russia, in the days of Rasputin.

18:02

But I did look around a good bit. I stuck my nose into Spiritualism, and I was able to see what I’d call a genuine materialization. And I was not impressed, because the eighteen-odd people that I talked to didn’t seem to know too much more than I did. And then I went back and remembered hearing something in the Bible, where Christ supposedly said, “The dead know nothing.” And I got reassurance of that. I wouldn’t have believed that at the beginning and just ignored the chase. I had to go through the chase and find out that somebody who had run that chase before knew something about it.

18:50

But I got interested in other things and I got clear away from Christianity – I thought there was too much of a demand for blind faith, a demand for adherence, the deference for authority. “Shut up,” the priests said, “The Pope will excommunicate you.” To a point where finally you say the heck with it. If God is subject to the whims of these creatures who seemingly don’t know more than I do, I’m checking out and I’ll look somewhere else.

19:27

So, as a lot of people do today, I got interested in oriental religion, the eastern movements. And the grass is greener on the other side of the fence; that was the main reason. And I too was taken in by exotic-looking people and exotic names and terms. We have a contempt for the parental language or parental religion: “Let’s try something strange and different and new.” So I went through the same thing, for quite a few years. I tried the equivalent of the macrobiotic diet – they didn’t call it that, it was just called vegetarian. You weren’t supposed to eat meat, and I thought, “That’s good enough; that’s a small price for the truth. I’ll quit eating meat.” You weren’t supposed to take in coffee either. This is the yogic path now. I shut out a lot of stuff – the opposite sex was out also, and I thought, “Well, sex a disadvantage; that’s a small price to pay for the truth, we’ll throw that out too.”

20:50

So I went at this for about seven or eight years, from the time I was twenty-one until I was twenty-eight. And I was rewarded with an increasing amount of ignorance – or seeming ignorance; I felt I was getting stupider every year. My hair was falling out, my teeth were falling out, and my ability to reproduce would soon be over, if I cared to go back to that foolishness. Several times I thought of chucking the whole thing, and tried to. Because I felt that I was basically just fooling myself. I had maybe built up a little anger. Right now I’d say that if my parental religion or established church was right, I still considered it to be as full of holes as swiss cheese. But it looked to me like there was no truth, basically. My computer kept saying that no matter where you go you’ll find phonies. The only thing is, you can’t identify an oriental phony as quickly as you can an American phony. So you linger a little longer in the cult and stay in the shadow of the guru.

=== Experience ===
22:13

So eventually I kicked it all loose and decided I was going to forget about that; I couldn’t complete it. But in none of those times that I decided to kick it was I really able to do so. Then I had an unusual experience that convinced me that there was something to look for. And then a lot of these things that I had heard and previously brushed aside came back to me, like “First know thyself.” Nobody pays any attention to that, because you find it in so many books, that this old philosopher said, “First know thyself.” So what?

23:02

And you get to books on Zen. I found out, in one of the books by Alan Watts, where he described some of his information he got from Sokei-An, that the ultimate purpose of Zen was the attainment of no-mind. So consequently there was nothing to find - and that seemed to be almost a joke; they giggled about it together. If there’s nothing to find, why look? It never occurred to him that it was utterly absurd that people would stay in monasteries their entire lives, in Asia or anyplace, trying to find something that they knew beforehand was nothing to find. That they would just stay there and giggle about the fact that they don’t do anything.

24:02

Some other statements came back to me, like the admonition of Christ, “The way, the truth and the life.” And in Buddhist terminology, “The buddha, the dharma and the sangha” – this sounds exotic. But it’s there in front of us all the time. And after I had this experience – I was thirty when it happened – I tried to talk to people about it. But I found out it was much wiser to keep your mouth shut; because if you have to hold onto a job or if you go into business, you can’t afford to talk about any of this material. You can talk about who’s on first base, or about the stock market, but you get into trouble if you talk about religion – especially way-out religion, such as that you might have had a realization. But I did find a fellow, a Zen teacher, shortly afterwards – he had this realization. This was Pulyan, on the east coast.

=== Paul Wood ===
Then I found a fellow by the name of Paul Wood , who had had an experience that was possibly much longer than mine; it seemed to be more profound and detailed. I met him in Akron, Ohio. He had come to this realization by meditating on the Lord’s Prayer. And I was utterly amazed, because I thought that system was all washed up and that you have to find, as Chilton-Pearce says, , a new set of symbols to go by. That you have to toss out these old ones, that weren’t delivering results.

26:10

What had happened, he was an aviator who had dropped some bombs on Japan. And being a good Christian he wondered why the God who watched the fall of a sparrow didn’t stop those bombs from landing in the right place. And this obsessed him or pursued him until the Air Force got rid of him; they said he was a risk. So they sent him home mumbling to himself. And he got down to Texas where he worked, and he mumbled to himself until his wife threw him out. She decided he wasn’t going to be serviceable anymore so she got rid of him. And he wandered the streets still mumbling to himself. He took first one job and then another, and his family wouldn’t have anything to do with him. He had some children; his kids made fun of him, apparently.

27:14

So he got a job, as he told me, at an automobile dealership selling cars, and one day he put his head down on the desk and asked God to kill him. He had tried to commit suicide two or three times but he couldn’t do it, didn’t have the courage. And when he woke up he said he was in the hospital. He was there for about ten days. And he said he was travelling on a starship, like in Star Trek. He was travelling in outer space for about a week or ten days.

27:49

I met him in a garage in Cuyahoga Falls. We sat in this dirty garage with some of the so-called brains from Goodyear and Firestone. We had to go to the garage because my friend who invited me over had some noisy kids in the house, and we couldn’t talk, so we went out into the garage. But I sat there and listened to this man’s experience and I was utterly amazed. And I said to him. “How? What brought this about?””

28:30

He said, “Well, everything hit the fan and I didn’t know where to turn, until I got the Bible out. And the Bible says that when you’re troubled pray thusly.” And what followed was the Lord’s Prayer. So he said, “I decided to give it all. If that’s what it takes, repeat the Lord’s Prayer; eighteen hours a day if necessary. And we’ll analyze it, study it, take it apart. And whatever was meant by it, we’ll try to find out.” And he stayed with it. But he said the more he spent time on it and the more he walked the streets mumbling that stuff, the worse things got. He’d lose one job after another. But what was happening – something was taking him to a breaking point – in other words, to the point where his head stopped. And when his head stopped he knew everything.

29:23

Now this is what they really mean in this Zen literature about no-mind. They mean the point where the head stops. And they talk occasionally about killing the Buddha, or killing the mind. But you can’t kill your mind. These were terms that were either lost or had something wrong with the translation, or misinterpreted. The mind is killed for you. You can’t set out to kill your own mind. The only thing you can do is set out to find the truth. But in the process of finding the truth, you have to somehow put a stop to this relative hassle that goes back and forth: “It could be this but it also could be the opposite. Or let’s look at it from two sides.” No, you have to go right down the middle. Look at it directly. Become one with it. You can’t reason it out, back and forth.

30:22

So he tried of course to pass this on to a few people, and he couldn’t do it. Because he could only tell them to use the Lord’s Prayer. But there was something missing when they got to studying the Lord’s Prayer: they hadn’t been aviators, they hadn’t dropped bombs and killed people, they hadn’t gone through all the little detailed steps of hell that he went through. And he couldn’t project them into that.

30:56

Each man’s path is slightly different. So that’s the reason that no religion or philosophy has a priority on enlightenment. There shouldn’t be any implication that you have to join anything. They say to have faith – but I say one of the things you’ve got to keep doing is doubting, not having faith. That you have to have faith is a paradox you walk right through: You have to have faith in yourself. You have to have the faith that you will either find or you’ll go crazy, or drop dead. If you have that kind of faith you might get something.

31:48
Now I would like to give myself a break and let you ask some questions.

[ Tape ends here, before the Q and A session, and the audio quality of this tape was horrible. If you happen to have a decent version of this tape in your collection, please advise. Thank you. ]

Tape ends at 31:52

== Footnotes ==
Url: http://direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1973-Definition-of-Zen-Kent-State
For access, send email to editors@direct-mind.org

Date based on PZ newsletter, courtesy of Al Fitzpatrick.

Alfred Pulyan. See http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/Pulyan.htm

Rose’s correspondence with Pulyan was 1960-1961: http://selfdefinition.org/pulyan/

See http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/Conquest.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokei-an

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._T._Suzuki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts .

E.g., The Way of Zen, 1957. PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/

Possibly Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen, 1959. PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/

9th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangbo_Xiyun Also see: http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/cmHuangPo.htm

6th century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharma

Bodhidharma – two PDFs here: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/

Possibly Jack Kerouac. Can’t seem to find the phrase in Watts or Suzuki.

Hubert Benoit, The Supreme Doctrine. PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_Mather

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rose_(mystic)#Biography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_F_Skinner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Perls Demonstrations can be seen on Youtube.

I’m OK, You’re OK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Anthony_Harris

Sea bass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichiren_Shoshu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaktipat

From Pittsburgh meeting March 4, 1976: “I think Meher Baba was a phony. He was a zapper. ... It’s done for money.”

See Rose, Energy Transmutation, Betweenness and Transmission. Also chapter 5 of The Albigen Papers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Horney

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherapy

Games People Play. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Berne

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

Roles defined in TA are parent, child and adult.

She died in the concentration camp.

1869-1916. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Rasputin

Quote is actually in the Old Testament: Ecclesiastes 9:5.

See “Three Books of the Absolute”, http://www.richardrose.org/ThreeBooks.pdf

1947. In the original Rose says, “31 or 32”, but later corrected this.

Also for Paul Wood see Obstacles, Cleveland, Ohio, Nov. 12, 1974.
http://direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1974-1112-Obstacles-Cleveland

Newspaper article from 1965 on Wood: http://selfdefinition.org/christian/paul-wood-story.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Chilton_Pearce

Crack in the Cosmic Egg, PDF here: http://selfdefinition.org/psychology/

Rose met Wood through Robert Martin. Martin’s description of Wood begins on page 91 in Peace to the Wanderer. PDF here: http://www.selfdefinition.org/rose/

== End ==
x

1976-Definition-of-Zen-Kent-State

2026-08-23T07:02:00Z

Dmadmin: /* Footnotes */ fix link observers nook

{{Page header}}

[[Category:1970s]]
[[Category:Zen]]
[[Category:Kent State]]
[[Category:Distributed]]
[[Category:Has Talk Page]]
[[Category:Audio Poor]]

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== Data Template ==


{{Recording Data
|record-date = See talk page for date of talk
|location = Kent State University
|number-tapes = 1 cassette. Tape 1 (side 1 = 31 minutes; side 2 = 32 minutes)
|source = N
|other-recorders = Yes
|other-versions =
|dvd-number = 2
|number-mp3s = 2
|total-time =
|transcription-status = SH distributed 12/25/2011
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks =
|audio-quality = Headset required. Annoying sound of squeaking tape recorder through some of side 1 and all of side 2. Lots of inaudible portions even with headset. Had to be transcribed because the noise is so annoying it’s impossible to listen to. Plays more slowly that original, slow speech, low pitch.
|who-is-present =
|}}

== Notes ==

SEE TALK PAGE

1. Date of tape – corrected to 1976 according to Al Fitz from PZ newsletter - see Discussion page.

2. Noise

3. Missing Q&A

== Side 1 ==
00:00

The talk tonight is about the definition of Zen. The reason for this is that over the years the definitions in the mind of the public have changed. First of all, it takes awhile to understand them, and I find that they’re continually fluctuating by virtue of use. The way the word Zen is used now causes a different understanding of it by the majority of the people. Of course, it’s questionable whether the word Zen will ever be understood or even defined for the majority of the people, or even the majority of the people who are interested in it.

I have found a considerable variance between many of the Zen movements and the stuff I studied from a personal teacher. This man took issue with things that are repeated in many books on Zen today. Some of the things emphasized now – and probably emphasized for several hundred years – were authenticity by virtue of a rubber stamp, and claims about their lineage. The man in question refused to talk about his lineage. He said, “I’d give it to you if you want, but I think it’s nonsense.” But this seems to be one of the keys in Zen literature, and in the basic understanding by the public about Zen.

02:12

This happened to me quite a few years ago and at that time hardly anything was written about Zen. In fact, I heard about the man in question, his name was Pulyan, by word of mouth. I had gone out to California and ran into some fellow who had been digging into Zen for a few years, and he knew both Sokei-an and Pulyan. D.T. Suzuki was writing books – he was the only authority on Zen at the time for which you could buy books or get them at the library. Later on, Alan Watts came out. , The first time I ran across Watts was in an article he wrote in an underground newspaper about beatnik Zen. And I had a feeling that he knew something. He was either not revealing it, or he was trying to write for a mediocre public; he wasn’t going to come out with the whole truth about Zen, if he knew it.

03:37

Since then, movements have sprung up around the country. And the philosophic public is inclined to believe that these movements are all valid, and that possibly the ones that are the most valid are those who wear the clothes, the uniform, or who claim some sort of oriental patronage, as if they came through some school.

=== Bodhidharma’s four principles ===
04:08

Now I’m going to abbreviate that and to come in from a different angle, because we can’t review all the books. I don’t know how many of you are acquainted with Zen, but the outstanding authorities, I think, down through the ages, were people like Huang Po and Bodhidharma. , Now Bodhidharma defined Zen, and you’ll find this in Suzuki’s Zen writings. According to Bodhidharma there were four things Zen had to have or it wasn’t Zen: First, that it was a separate transmission outside of the scriptures; second, an absolute avoidance or disregard for words and letters; third, direct looking into the soul of man; and the fourth of course was arriving at Buddhahood – they contemplated that it could be done.

05:50

The first one implies transmission, and transmission implies more than one person. Now any person can reach enlightenment, possibly. And when I repeat this, people don’t understand, and they think I’m violating some premise when I become so critical of certain Zen movements. But anybody by themselves can reach enlightenment, if they’re persistent enough and if they dig enough – to find out some of the things they have to do, things they have to avoid, and to put total energy into a given project.

06:37

But the Zen system endorses cooperation with someone else. So does the Christian system. And I draw a parallel with the sayings of Buddha and the sayings of Christ: "The way, the truth and the life" are synonymous with "The buddha, the dharma and the sangha" – which means the truth, the discipline and the brotherhood. The way is the discipline, the truth is the buddha-nature, and the life is the brotherhood or the apostolate. Now don’t let me insinuate that Buddhism is Zen or that Zen is Buddhism. Possibly both emanated from the same source; one was a total discipline whereas the other was a layman’s discipline. And as time passed they became separated and there was no relationship at all hardly between them.

07:49

So when we use the first term, “a separate transmission outside the scriptures”, it doesn’t just apply to Buddhistic scriptures; it applies to any scriptures, any dogma. So as soon as you start seeing a prolific number of books put out on the subject of Zen or any system – especially if that tends to become a dogmatic system – you have to be a little suspicious of it: Are we getting into words and letters once more? Are we starting to build a vocabulary? Do we now find the foreign words and phrases as enchanting as Latin was a few decades ago?

08:42

Transmission implies that it’s possible that a person who has, can extend. Even if he can’t completely transmit the experience, he may be able to help. If he’s not a teacher he may be a member of a group; and being in a group, whether it’s Alcoholics Anonymous or a Zen group, results in an objective mutual help for all participants. But the ability to transmit is a necessary part of Zen. It really isn’t Zen unless there’s somebody there who can transmit.

09:27

The second thing of course is getting away from words and letters. You throw your books away; we don’t need books. And the third is going directly into the mind of man, or the heart of man, or the soul of man. Of course you don’t know you have a soul until you go within and find out what’s there, but we presume that whatever is in there – just go in and you can find out.

09:53

Now there’s a reason for this particular statement of principles. Zen is an elusive thing, and down through the ages there were many advocates or devotees or whatever you want to call it in different countries, but then it disappeared. It disappeared in India and appeared with Bodhidharma in China. It thrived for awhile in China and disappeared from there, and it’s now in Japan, predominately. But regardless, the same theory or soul of Zen, the same theme, has been maintained through the ages, because of these precepts that were laid down. And these precepts weren’t laid down to inhibit behavior, or to try to get you to walk the party line; they were there to keep it absolutely pure of dogma, and from becoming an institution. If it became an institution, it automatically stopped you from thinking; you would rationalize acting a certain religious role, rather than actually being religious – spiritual or wise or philosophical, or whatever you want to call it.

=== Zen state of mind ===
11:20

So it comes back to the fact that Zen is not any part of any religion. Zen is basically a state of mind. I read one of the Zen writers, incidentally, who defined it as that, and this is very accurate. Zen is a mental technique, a mental discipline, and again, it is not part of Buddhism. Now a lot of people are Zen-ish and don’t know it, perhaps like George Bernard Shaw – a person who has an unusual amount of common sense and wit, and was able to bring his point across, not by argument but by digging and pointing out and jabbing a little bit here and there, until a person becomes aware of another state of mind or another frame of mind.

12:15

I maintain that Zen is basically nothing more than common sense. Now most of us don’t like something that is just plain common sense. We would like to have something mysterious and complicated, which could be bought for a thousand dollars, a hundred dollars or ten dollars – wrapped up and shipped in a package. But it must be mysterious and something tremendous and intricate.

12:41

And basically it is – something tremendous and intricate; and at the same time it’s very simple, just common sense. We hear so many talks, and there are so many books written, like Benoit – complex books on the intricacies of why you should be allowed to think along Zen lines – these tremendous apologies of Zen by psychiatrists on “why it might be practical and tolerant” to think along Zen lines. This is just another book of words.

13:21

But actually, we are students of the truth, number one. The purpose of a student of Zen is to find the answer. Of course, he doesn’t want the answer to how many calories are in this piece of bread, particularly. He wants the answer to all of life, the answer to three major questions: Who am I? Where did I come from? Where am I going? And these aren’t answered too accurately by the dogmatic religions. They swing off into storybook adventures and tales. And incidentally, Zen also has its crop of little anecdotes, which I don’t think have too much meaning. And I wonder of course why. I think the word Zen became magical for a period of time, and anything that was written on it would attract attention.

=== Common sense ===
14:32

Basically the whole thing is everyday common sense and practicality. And if it doesn’t start with that then you can’t pursue it, in my estimation. I notice that a tremendous lot of people want to pursue a profound religion, a profound philosophy, while hanging on to a life of non-common sense. They want to keep up whatever role in life they’re playing, as though they didn’t dare let loose, and at the same time they say, “Hey, tell me what I have to do to get this.”

If this is the total value of life, then I want it. And possibly in order to get it – it’s not going to be something you could package in the form of wisdom you can memorize or learn. It’s basically something that changes you; and in the changing you become. So the whole problem is that if you’re not ready to drop the stuff that isn’t common sense, you’ll not proceed. And you’ll write into every line you hear, or every proposition made to you – to shape your head, to get you to try to confront yourself, to analyze your own thoughts – you’ll only accept what you would prefer and like. If you think it’s okay, if it flatters your previous concepts, you’ll accept it; and if it doesn’t you’ll reject it.

16:28

This happens at every lecture. There’s always something I say that somebody will challenge. They’ll say, “Ho. If you’re not in favor of this particular form of the modern liberal movement, you’re not enlightened.” Someone who hasn’t stuck their nose in any form of philosophy or spiritual endeavor will tell me who’s enlightened, by virtue of whether I’m politically popular. They’re going to hang onto what they wish, demanding that God be defined in term of liberalism.

17:11

Zen uses plain common sense to reach absolute knowledge. We’re not talking now about just knowing who you are in a psychological sense – but we might begin with an intense application of psychology and self-analysis, to find out who you are, and find out where you come from and where you’re going.

=== How people are swayed ===
17:42

Now, how do we determine whether we have common sense? Everybody thinks they have common sense. Everybody thinks in fact that common sense is what the most people think and do – and this isn’t necessarily true. Most reactions of people are like goats – they are led. The majority of people are led – this was said by an eminent theologian, Cotton Mather, and by an eminent communist, Karl Marx. Both of them made the remark that the masses are incapable of governing themselves. But people think that by democratic vote, that’s all it takes. So we’re voting on stuff celestial and psychological. And we’re coming up with voting on what sanity is and voting on what God is – and when you vote him down, he’ll disappear, obligingly, and not cause us any more trouble.

18:53

Common sense is not being fooled by clever advertising. I’m not buying a car because it’s pretty, or a product where the advertising hints that you should buy it because it’s popular. The big theme is, “Everybody is buying this today.” And people rush out and buy it, and pretty soon everybody’s buying it – but only after they saw the advertisement that said everybody was buying it.

19:34

Now we say, “Sure, we know all that – and we reject it.” But when you go to the store and come home with a bundle do you ever say, “How did I come to buy this? Did I see a commercial? Why did I pick this one instead of the one that wasn’t advertised?” It’s become almost a religion: Things are advertised grade A, and if you pay a lot for it, it’s got to be special. Don’t buy anything cheap, because it’s second-class material. How do you know? But we have become brainwashed into following these yardsticks of popularity. And of course there’s the appeal that the product will make you popular with the opposite sex. Almost all of us will buy the toothpaste with the ad that shows us the smile before and after: the girl running, the girl coming back, bad breath, Clorets, physical culture. And people go to school because they see a glamorous advertisement.

I had a fellow tell me one time – he was a native of Scotland and I ran into him in Denver, Colorado. I was working there when they first started working on streptomycin, and he was there trying to save the last part of his lung. He had been shot down over Afghanistan, fighting in the Afghan war for the British. I said, “How did you ever wind up in the British army?” He said, “Those blasted bagpipes.” They came into a Scottish town playing bagpipes and he fell in line. “The next thing you know,” he said, “for a shilling a day they got me.” But what got him was his inability to see through this fake glamour that was built up. There was no glamour on the battlefield. He said that when he got shot down they told him, “Well, you’ve lost a lung.” The thing he guided the airplane with went through one lung, and he got tuberculosis in the other. The British had no way of treating him so they just dropped him.

21:59

But a lot of things are done like that. How many people today are working in uniforms? Maybe they even have to supply or pay for the uniforms themselves, and work for less money. Guards at plants – they think they look glamorous or handsome. And nurses too. I’m not throwing rocks at nurses, my wife is a nurse – not that I might want to throw a rock or two there – but I saw that she was working for nothing. Because she was continually flattered into believing she was Florence Nightingale of the modern times – she was out working miracles and healing the sick and all this sort of thing. And she was doing the dirty work as a scrub nurse for a doctor who made a thousand or two thousand dollars a day off her labor, while she made twenty-five. But nevertheless she was staked into this by virtue of the fact that she didn’t have the common sense to see she was just being used. She could have made more as a cashier in a Kroger store.

23:11

We go in for things like name-dropping. Name-dropping divorces us of our common sense sometimes. If we hear that Joe Garagiola the ball player endorses something, we don’t think for a minute that he’s a rascal – everybody likes Joe Garagiola. Or some movie star, let’s say. Loren Greene is advertising dog food now. I never saw a dog on Bonanza, or I might think he had some experience with them. They get a race car owner to advertise STP and this produces a profitable return for the advertiser. They pick these people not for nothing, but because this has a psychological effect.

24:22

Also we have this business of deference for authority. When you get down to your daily life, I don’t care where you go, someone is taking advantage of your refusal to apply common sense; it costs you at every turn. I remember they used to have a commercial, “Ten New York doctors say …” Remember that one? It was Carter’s Little Liver Pills. And then the Pure Food and Drug people come out and said, “These aren’t liver pills.” They were little more than a placebo, a mild physic. They had to take them off the market as liver pills. But for years that’s what sold Carter’s Little Liver Pills.

25:14

So now we have, “Modern psychiatrists say ...” Well, we know what modern psychiatrists are saying because we finally got a few of them who will argue with each other. The old school of psychology was originally one of experimentation with an open mind. Then of course it became Freudian, and then behavioristic: trying to determine by graphs and that sort of thing the substance of a person’s mentality or thought. That was Skinner. This of course was thrust aside by new schools of thought such as Fritz Perls and Thomas Harris and these people. And some of them were idealized and considered great authorities, great pioneers. But the amazing thing about this country is that somebody is always writing biographies of people as soon as they die, or even before they die, and we find that some of these eminent authorities were extreme alcoholics or extreme psychotics. Even Fritz Perls’ own people claimed he was psychotic, aberrated.

=== Pretense ===

26:41

Another thing we’re snowed by is pretensive terminology. Now there’s a reason for this drift I’m taking because this all applies. We apply these same thing to philosophy, and movements, groups, cults or what have you. We apply the same common sense as you would for sorting out the cheapest toothpaste or the cheapest aspirin – when they say you have to have a quarter-grain of aspirin and it doesn’t matter what you pay for it – rather than buying something with a fancy title or that comes in a fancy tin box. If we don’t have the common sense to take care of the food we feed our children – we’d rather listen to an advertisement – how can we possibly get the common sense to sort out the religions or the cults – that are supposedly reaching out beyond the established, old, dogmatic religions for a brave venture into total knowledge? We’ve got to have some real common sense. We’ve got to start from the bottom.

27:55

So we take this thing of pretensive terminology. The drug prescriptions used to be written in Latin, supposedly so they couldn’t be duplicated – hardly anyone knew how to read them. I think the most important reason they were written in Latin was so they could give a prescription to a druggist that was a placebo – and the victim didn’t know the difference and thought he’d been given something that could cure him. It covered up a tremendous lot of inadequacy. If he gave the wrong medicine and it killed the patient – they couldn’t read his writing, possibly. The druggist made a mistake or the doctor made a mistake, but they could translate it to suit themselves. The same applies to the legal profession. Why do they have everything in Latin? I think for the same reason; you had to have a language. Now we have too much language today – our technical language, in chemistry and electronics and that sort of thing. We’re getting all this vocabulary, and half of them are about you having things to cover up, for the purpose of certain trades.

29:36

It goes clear down to eating in the restaurants. We always have French dishes – this spring I was over in Egypt and I noticed they had everything written in French. They called the fish a loup de mer francais or loup de mer anglais, but it was always the same fish – they only had one type of fish. They had beef and that was written in French too, but it wasn’t beef – it was water buffalo, and it was like neoprene. But it was a fancy word. They put towels on the table and napkins and fancy silverware and that sort of thing. But you were led to believe you were living it up by eating something that you didn’t understand.

30:51

Now we go back further into everyday life, and we find that everybody is interested in fooling everybody else. This is where the basic thing of truth begins. If you want to find out the ultimate truth – how can you avoid the daily truth while still being basically truthful?

[break in tape] <<<< combine prior and following paragraphs

== Side 2 ==

We need to live in a truthful manner in order to be consistent with ourselves and with our friends – because these are the mirrors of ourselves, even if we’re going the trip alone. If we’re hated by our family and our friends because of our own misconceptions, how will we be able to see ourselves clearly without this yardstick?

We hear the jingles and commercials on the radio or television and we listen to them until they become hypnotic – and you go out and buy a Pepsi-Cola or whatever they’re advertising. You also have the lucky coupon deal. The people who sold aluminum siding for houses used to go around and say, “It will cost you $5,000, but for every customer you get for us we’ll knock $50 off the cost.” So they get a customer for the fellow and he knocks $50 off their bill – and he charges the next one $5000 plus another $50. And this type of pyramid thinking is very common – getting something from sending in your neighbors, mailing in so many box tops, some little contest or name-guessing, and you get a Cadillac or lord knows what, a free subscription to a magazine.

02:14

Also we have the psychology of repetition; this has been something known for a long time. It was one of the first psychological gimmicks, whether in salesmanship or in learning. Keep repeating and repeating until all of a sudden the victim agrees. Another is the admonition that some product will take care of everything. Snake oil seventy or eighty years ago would heal everything.

=== Spiritual sales gimmicks ===
00:26 <<< old time was this – paragraph was moved down a couple

I want to give a parallel now with how some of these things affect a spiritual or philosophic path. Some people prefer to use the word spiritual and some call it psychological or philosophical. But I’d like to show you the parallels between this everyday advertisement and the philosophical or spiritual advertisement.

<< end of moved section

02:52 << the next paragraph was re-written by SH for sentence structure

For example corresponding to the jingles, which are repetitive and hypnotic, now you have chanting. Likewise, the psychology of repetition is exercised in mantras – repeating the mantra you can become convinced. The coupon deal is when you get through a course and become a teacher, and then you can take a rake-off. And how many little brochures that we might pick up claim that this or that practice cures everything? They take care of your peace of mind and ensure that you become wealthy, and that everything you do is alright. And in fact some mantras are guaranteed to bring you anything you want – just keep chanting them.

03:41

Now of course in sales we have a thing called subliminal advertising – suggestions that are hypnotic; they appeal to something that actually carries you away, without realizing you’re being carried away. Then we have the thing that’s called addiction, where you’re given a free sample, a free pack of cigarettes, and the next thing you know you’re hooked. Corresponding to these, for subliminal advertizing in esoteric matters we have what I call “zapping”. , This is subliminal; you don’t know it’s happening. Sometimes the results take you quite a ways; it’s like the cumulative effect of pot – you accumulate a lot of this hypnotic indoctrination, and before you realize it you’ve been zapped.

05:05

Healing is another one. And healing is very true – a lot of people get healed; the apostles healed. But it’s a subliminal sort of thing. Very few people know the mechanics of healing. But they like to leave the impression that they’re the right arm of God. My conviction about healing is that it’s human energy projected – you’ve got to have it before you can spend it. And if you don’t have enough of it, it’s nice to go into a crowd and tap some of the crowd’s energy.

05:54

Another technique is suggestion: fear suggestions and suggestions that placate. This corresponds to the hypnotic advertisements. We’d like to hypnotize people with the fear of going to hell – at least that’s what happened in the past. Or saying, “Now that you’re a troubled soul because I’ve scared the wits out of you, let me placate you with the blessing.” And they get five dollars for a trip to the tent. As for addiction: how many of these movements stand out as unique, all-curing philosophies and tell you this explicitly? They’ll take care of everything. All you have to do is trust yourself to the guru – give your guru your karma. You may be slightly insolvent but all your cares will be taken away.

07:02
=== Psychology and psychiatry ===

Now let’s go to this business of understanding the mind. The third directive of Bodhidharma is that we go directly to the soul of man – this is what happens in Zen, and we’ll get to that a little later. The second one was to avoid words and letters, meaning you don’t read textbooks. Now I’m continually reading books of psychology – against my own advice – because invariably there’s some new word thrown out, a new system, a new technique, and I’m tempted to see what might come out of that. But all I find is that each book is a new vocabulary – because there’s a certain jealousy among men of letters, especially psychologists. I find that while they in turn curse the previous vocabulary, they create a new one. We were talking about psychoanalysis at the house today – for me the word means the analysis of the psyche, the analysis of the mind, and psychotherapy to me is the therapy or the treatment of the mind.

08:41

But there’s another meaning. Freud said, “Whenever you use the word psychoanalysis, you’re talking about me.” He was supposed to be the father of psychoanalysis, and as of now it means the Freudian type of thinking. Psychotherapy means the Adler type of thinking. And we get down to people like Karen Horney and Viktor Frankl with his logotherapy. Then there are Thomas Harris and Eric Berne with their transactional analysis – these are magnificent-sounding terms – and book titles like “I’m Ok and you’re Ok and we’re all perfect bums together.” That’s tempting when you first see it, but when you analyze it you find out the man is criticizing the parent while by becoming the parent with his book. He never stops to think that he’s the parent, and he has to tell you how to live.

09:56

And the same with this business of Skinner and his robots. Common sense tells me that if we are all robots, we don’t dare trust a robot to condition us. But Skinner says we all need to be conditioned, so that the society will be perfect. How can a robot or even a million robots decide what is perfect, what is Utopian?

10:33

Frankel, with his logotherapy, said that man could not live without meaning. And when I first saw that in his book I thought, “Wonderful, this sounds like Zen; here’s somebody who wants to find out who he is.” But when I read the book – he didn’t want to find out who he was. He found out that people live longer in concentration camps if they created a synthetic objective, so he says go out and create yourself a synthetic objective. And then you’ll live longer or you’ll find more meaning in life. And he left his wife behind, because she was less important possibly than his manuscript; he could hang on to this book and survive the concentration camp. Freud left his sisters behind; his reason was to start up his clinics – because they were in the packaging business, they were not in the business of finding the truth.

11:37

So if this is true – some of you may throw rocks at me and say I’m mistaken; maybe so. But regardless, we’re creating a Tower of Babel in the science of the mind – which is going to be hard to sift and sort, to find out which one really knows something about the mind. And I think we do have to have some understanding. You can’t avoid the use of terms, you can’t avoid reading books, because the books are stimulating. And I say this, that if you don’t have anything else to read, read a book of psychology. It will bring you a better knowledge of yourself, even though in the process you have to prove the author inadequate. It will still cause you to think about your own thoughts, and bring you in a little closer. But I sometimes wonder how far we have come in psychiatry and psychology.

12:39
=== Correspondences ===

I have a list of words here and their correspondences.
<blockquote>
The couch Confessional.
<br>

Psychosis Sin
<br>

Egotism, one-upmanship Pride
</blockquote>
That’s the big crime today; everybody has to stop it. Why?
<blockquote>
Greed, insecurity Covetousness
<br>

Satyriasis, nymphomania Lust
<br>

Anti-social attitudes Anger
<br>

Hypothyroidism Laziness, sloth
<br>

Competitional frustration Envy
</blockquote>
We’re running through the seven deadly sins and seeing how they correspond with today’s language. And what are they, basically? Are they bad, in either case? If they’re bad should you be convinced of your guilt – if you feel you have to be cleared of the psychoses or the sin in order to be functional? I think of course that if you admit you have the psychoses or the sin you can start to overcome it.

14:11

But some of these things were built into us. This one-upmanship – God help us when we drop it; that’s pride, and pride is necessary to keep the rooster going. He has to make a fool of himself for forty years; he must run that race in order to earn his way. If he discovers that there’s foolishness in that fact, he’s going to give up. So we need a lot of roosters.

14:40

And this applies to spiritual matters too. You have to hope that you’re going to heaven even if everybody else goes to hell. There is no democracy in Christianity. The road to heaven they used to say is narrow, the road to hell is wide. You’re going to vote yourself in? Are you going where everybody’s is going? Now of course no one believes that these days – that the road to heaven is narrow and the road to hell is wide. But it’s true that the percentages of the people who get into deeper phases of philosophy are much smaller than the people who play with little ideas, who go occasionally to some sort of intensive retreat, join some movement, pay for lessons through the mail or something.

15:40

So consequently, the field does narrow. And of course, if you’re investigating things, this has to narrow down too. You have to start sorting. You can’t endorse everything. This is one of the things I run into in my talking: everybody wants to be endorsed. A lot of speakers get up today and they’re careful not to tramp on any toes. I’m not running for office. I don’t care if you vote for me or not. The only thing is, I do hope that if I learned something, it can be available to those who somehow feel there is common sense in what I have to say. And then maybe go a little further to do something on their own.

=== Personal search ===
16:33

Now I can give you, again, a little history of my own adventures in this regard. I was raised in a conventional religion. I studied to be a priest; and I was seventeen when this somehow didn’t strike me as being common sense. I saw a lifetime objective; they wanted me to sign up for life. And I thought that if I’m going to sign up for life I’d better be sure of what I was doing. I wasn’t sure that they were wrong – but I just wasn’t sure that I had exhausted all other possibilities, to do the thing a little better. So I got to looking around. And I looked, as I used to say, under every rock. Don’t be too proud to look under rocks. Sometimes the words of idiots and lunatics are more important than the pretensive words of theologians. And at one time they worshipped the idiots in Russia, in the days of Rasputin.

18:02

But I did look around a good bit. I stuck my nose into Spiritualism, and I was able to see what I’d call a genuine materialization. And I was not impressed, because the eighteen-odd people that I talked to didn’t seem to know too much more than I did. And then I went back and remembered hearing something in the Bible, where Christ supposedly said, “The dead know nothing.” And I got reassurance of that. I wouldn’t have believed that at the beginning and just ignored the chase. I had to go through the chase and find out that somebody who had run that chase before knew something about it.

18:50

But I got interested in other things and I got clear away from Christianity – I thought there was too much of a demand for blind faith, a demand for adherence, the deference for authority. “Shut up,” the priests said, “The Pope will excommunicate you.” To a point where finally you say the heck with it. If God is subject to the whims of these creatures who seemingly don’t know more than I do, I’m checking out and I’ll look somewhere else.

19:27

So, as a lot of people do today, I got interested in oriental religion, the eastern movements. And the grass is greener on the other side of the fence; that was the main reason. And I too was taken in by exotic-looking people and exotic names and terms. We have a contempt for the parental language or parental religion: “Let’s try something strange and different and new.” So I went through the same thing, for quite a few years. I tried the equivalent of the macrobiotic diet – they didn’t call it that, it was just called vegetarian. You weren’t supposed to eat meat, and I thought, “That’s good enough; that’s a small price for the truth. I’ll quit eating meat.” You weren’t supposed to take in coffee either. This is the yogic path now. I shut out a lot of stuff – the opposite sex was out also, and I thought, “Well, sex a disadvantage; that’s a small price to pay for the truth, we’ll throw that out too.”

20:50

So I went at this for about seven or eight years, from the time I was twenty-one until I was twenty-eight. And I was rewarded with an increasing amount of ignorance – or seeming ignorance; I felt I was getting stupider every year. My hair was falling out, my teeth were falling out, and my ability to reproduce would soon be over, if I cared to go back to that foolishness. Several times I thought of chucking the whole thing, and tried to. Because I felt that I was basically just fooling myself. I had maybe built up a little anger. Right now I’d say that if my parental religion or established church was right, I still considered it to be as full of holes as swiss cheese. But it looked to me like there was no truth, basically. My computer kept saying that no matter where you go you’ll find phonies. The only thing is, you can’t identify an oriental phony as quickly as you can an American phony. So you linger a little longer in the cult and stay in the shadow of the guru.

=== Experience ===
22:13

So eventually I kicked it all loose and decided I was going to forget about that; I couldn’t complete it. But in none of those times that I decided to kick it was I really able to do so. Then I had an unusual experience that convinced me that there was something to look for. And then a lot of these things that I had heard and previously brushed aside came back to me, like “First know thyself.” Nobody pays any attention to that, because you find it in so many books, that this old philosopher said, “First know thyself.” So what?

23:02

And you get to books on Zen. I found out, in one of the books by Alan Watts, where he described some of his information he got from Sokei-An, that the ultimate purpose of Zen was the attainment of no-mind. So consequently there was nothing to find - and that seemed to be almost a joke; they giggled about it together. If there’s nothing to find, why look? It never occurred to him that it was utterly absurd that people would stay in monasteries their entire lives, in Asia or anyplace, trying to find something that they knew beforehand was nothing to find. That they would just stay there and giggle about the fact that they don’t do anything.

24:02

Some other statements came back to me, like the admonition of Christ, “The way, the truth and the life.” And in Buddhist terminology, “The buddha, the dharma and the sangha” – this sounds exotic. But it’s there in front of us all the time. And after I had this experience – I was thirty when it happened – I tried to talk to people about it. But I found out it was much wiser to keep your mouth shut; because if you have to hold onto a job or if you go into business, you can’t afford to talk about any of this material. You can talk about who’s on first base, or about the stock market, but you get into trouble if you talk about religion – especially way-out religion, such as that you might have had a realization. But I did find a fellow, a Zen teacher, shortly afterwards – he had this realization. This was Pulyan, on the east coast.

=== Paul Wood ===
Then I found a fellow by the name of Paul Wood , who had had an experience that was possibly much longer than mine; it seemed to be more profound and detailed. I met him in Akron, Ohio. He had come to this realization by meditating on the Lord’s Prayer. And I was utterly amazed, because I thought that system was all washed up and that you have to find, as Chilton-Pearce says, , a new set of symbols to go by. That you have to toss out these old ones, that weren’t delivering results.

26:10

What had happened, he was an aviator who had dropped some bombs on Japan. And being a good Christian he wondered why the God who watched the fall of a sparrow didn’t stop those bombs from landing in the right place. And this obsessed him or pursued him until the Air Force got rid of him; they said he was a risk. So they sent him home mumbling to himself. And he got down to Texas where he worked, and he mumbled to himself until his wife threw him out. She decided he wasn’t going to be serviceable anymore so she got rid of him. And he wandered the streets still mumbling to himself. He took first one job and then another, and his family wouldn’t have anything to do with him. He had some children; his kids made fun of him, apparently.

27:14

So he got a job, as he told me, at an automobile dealership selling cars, and one day he put his head down on the desk and asked God to kill him. He had tried to commit suicide two or three times but he couldn’t do it, didn’t have the courage. And when he woke up he said he was in the hospital. He was there for about ten days. And he said he was travelling on a starship, like in Star Trek. He was travelling in outer space for about a week or ten days.

27:49

I met him in a garage in Cuyahoga Falls. We sat in this dirty garage with some of the so-called brains from Goodyear and Firestone. We had to go to the garage because my friend who invited me over had some noisy kids in the house, and we couldn’t talk, so we went out into the garage. But I sat there and listened to this man’s experience and I was utterly amazed. And I said to him. “How? What brought this about?””

28:30

He said, “Well, everything hit the fan and I didn’t know where to turn, until I got the Bible out. And the Bible says that when you’re troubled pray thusly.” And what followed was the Lord’s Prayer. So he said, “I decided to give it all. If that’s what it takes, repeat the Lord’s Prayer; eighteen hours a day if necessary. And we’ll analyze it, study it, take it apart. And whatever was meant by it, we’ll try to find out.” And he stayed with it. But he said the more he spent time on it and the more he walked the streets mumbling that stuff, the worse things got. He’d lose one job after another. But what was happening – something was taking him to a breaking point – in other words, to the point where his head stopped. And when his head stopped he knew everything.

29:23

Now this is what they really mean in this Zen literature about no-mind. They mean the point where the head stops. And they talk occasionally about killing the Buddha, or killing the mind. But you can’t kill your mind. These were terms that were either lost or had something wrong with the translation, or misinterpreted. The mind is killed for you. You can’t set out to kill your own mind. The only thing you can do is set out to find the truth. But in the process of finding the truth, you have to somehow put a stop to this relative hassle that goes back and forth: “It could be this but it also could be the opposite. Or let’s look at it from two sides.” No, you have to go right down the middle. Look at it directly. Become one with it. You can’t reason it out, back and forth.

30:22

So he tried of course to pass this on to a few people, and he couldn’t do it. Because he could only tell them to use the Lord’s Prayer. But there was something missing when they got to studying the Lord’s Prayer: they hadn’t been aviators, they hadn’t dropped bombs and killed people, they hadn’t gone through all the little detailed steps of hell that he went through. And he couldn’t project them into that.

30:56

Each man’s path is slightly different. So that’s the reason that no religion or philosophy has a priority on enlightenment. There shouldn’t be any implication that you have to join anything. They say to have faith – but I say one of the things you’ve got to keep doing is doubting, not having faith. That you have to have faith is a paradox you walk right through: You have to have faith in yourself. You have to have the faith that you will either find or you’ll go crazy, or drop dead. If you have that kind of faith you might get something.

31:48
Now I would like to give myself a break and let you ask some questions.

[ Tape ends here, before the Q and A session, and the audio quality of this tape was horrible. If you happen to have a decent version of this tape in your collection, please advise. Thank you. ]

Tape ends at 31:52

== Footnotes ==
Url: http://direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1973-Definition-of-Zen-Kent-State
For access, send email to editors@direct-mind.org

Date “circa 1973” based on title of a photograph published in Observer’s Nook, “Richard Rose finding rapport with a native of Cairo, Egypt” in a PDF file:
https://richardroseteachings.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/The-Observers-Nook-Volume-5-Number-1.pdf However, this date is erroneous.

Alfred Pulyan. See http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/Pulyan.htm

Rose’s correspondence with Pulyan was 1960-1961: http://selfdefinition.org/pulyan/

See http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/Conquest.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokei-an

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._T._Suzuki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts .

E.g., The Way of Zen, 1957. PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/

Possibly Beat Zen, Square Zen, and Zen, 1959. PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/

9th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangbo_Xiyun Also see: http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/cmHuangPo.htm

6th century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharma

Bodhidharma – two PDFs here: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/

Possibly Jack Kerouac. Can’t seem to find the phrase in Watts or Suzuki.

Hubert Benoit, The Supreme Doctrine. PDF: http://selfdefinition.org/zen/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotton_Mather

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rose_(mystic)#Biography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_F_Skinner

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Perls Demonstrations can be seen on Youtube.

I’m OK, You’re OK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Anthony_Harris

Sea bass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichiren_Shoshu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaktipat

From Pittsburgh meeting March 4, 1976: “I think Meher Baba was a phony. He was a zapper. ... It’s done for money.”

See Rose, Energy Transmutation, Betweenness and Transmission. Also chapter 5 of The Albigen Papers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Horney

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherapy

Games People Play. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Berne

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis

Roles defined in TA are parent, child and adult.

She died in the concentration camp.

1869-1916. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori_Rasputin

Quote is actually in the Old Testament: Ecclesiastes 9:5.

See “Three Books of the Absolute”, http://www.richardrose.org/ThreeBooks.pdf

1947. In the original Rose says, “31 or 32”, but later corrected this.

Also for Paul Wood see Obstacles, Cleveland, Ohio, Nov. 12, 1974.
http://direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1974-1112-Obstacles-Cleveland

Newspaper article from 1965 on Wood: http://selfdefinition.org/christian/paul-wood-story.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Chilton_Pearce

Crack in the Cosmic Egg, PDF here: http://selfdefinition.org/psychology/

Rose met Wood through Robert Martin. Martin’s description of Wood begins on page 91 in Peace to the Wanderer. PDF here: http://www.selfdefinition.org/rose/

== End ==
x

1977-11-Method-of-Going-Inside-Pittsburgh

2026-04-27T18:14:18Z

Dmadmin: Add cat "Fragments"

{{Page header}}
[[Category:1970s]]
[[Category:Distributed]]
[[Category:Audio Poor]]
[[Category:Fragments]]
[[Category:Has Talk Page]]
[[Category:Pittsburgh]]
[[Category:Psychology of the Observer]]
<div id="widthlimiter">
== Data Template ==



{{Recording Data
|record-date = November 1977 - Note the "11-01" was from Excel - not valid date.
|location = Says “here in Pittsburgh” on side 3 at 31:02. Pittsburgh is not used in title because "going inside Pittsburgh" sounds silly, as does "Pittsburgh method".
|number-tapes = Presume two 60-minute tapes - 3 sides. There's a break at the 45 minute mark, so original was likely 2 sides of a 90 minute tape.
|source = Jake
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s = 3 mp3 files : 31:05 ; 31:00 ; 31:25. UPDATE: two additional files were discovered, 33 minutes total: dm4 and dm5.
|total-time = 93 minutes. Update, add 33, total 126 minutes
|transcription-status = SH distributed 4/13/2012. UPDATE: Have Auto-AI of dm4 and dm5 mentioned above, to be added. Art will be publishing this talk in the TAT forum beginning about May 2026 in installments.
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf = https://selfdefinition.org/rose/Richard-Rose-1977-11-Method-of-Going-Inside.pdf
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks = This is NOT the commercial recording “Going Within”.
|audio-quality = Poor - needs headset
|who-is-present = "Dan" gave the introduction - referred to by Rose, but intro is not on tape.
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

== Notes ==
Appears to be two microphones, one for Rose and one for some questions (not all) – perhaps a mixer was used for this tape.

Says “here in Pittsburgh” on side 3 at 31:02.

See talk page for comments re LSD trip.

After spot-checking some keywords, I can’t find any of this included in the book Psychology of the Observer.

== File 1 ==
Time = 31:05 minutes

00:00

I’m going to give you some information tonight on a method of going inside. Previously I’ve tried to give some rather knowledge-laden lectures. I gave one here a couple years ago on the transmission of energy and it went over like a lead balloon – because the terminology was evidently vague, and if you haven’t read along these lines, a lot of this stuff is alien to you.

01:10

The whole purpose behind any esoteric or nonconventional spiritual search is the finding of the final answer; you could use such terms as ultimate answer, or absolute truth. In the pursuit of this, if you follow the histories of people who pursued it, we find that it isn’t a systematic intellectual, logical, or even philosophic presentation. We don’t find the truth by proving it in a court of logic. After digging for maybe ten or twenty years you discover that you find the truth, or you’re liable to approach it, by becoming a different vehicle. Not by attacking something and trying to digest it, but by changing your nature, so that you’ll be able to assimilate something of an absolute nature. Because you are finite and relative, and a finite, relative creature may not be able to assimilate an absolute truth.

02:38

Regardless, this is where all of the hatha yoga movements end up: in raja yoga. All of the manipulatory religions wind up in what they call an esoteric core – the “less finite”. Dan mentioned that I studied to be a priest at one time, and in the seminary they talked about the Thomistic theology in which the statement is made that the finite mind will never perceive the infinite – and this is very true. Now this was written at that time to discourage people from looking for the truth, saying you’ve got to believe the hierarchy, because there’s no place to go; you have a finite mind and you’re not going to get there. But the thing they overlooked was that the finite mind can become different; the finite mind can become less finite.

03:40

We’re not going to get into the system of that tonight, but I’m going to try to try to take you through a simple process of going within. And if you can remember this it will be of value to you, because this is the crux of all of this path, after you reach the decision that you have to change your nature, that you have to become. It’s based, first of all, upon five properties of the human mind. Now I completely avoid and bypass what is known as current psychology, the psychology that has developed down through the years to where it is today, and certain definitions they have of the mind.

At one time I believed that there were only three qualities of the human mind: perception, retention and reaction. If you look at it for a minute you’ll see why I said that; basically, you can get all of the things that happen to a human being down into those three categories: you perceive, you retain as memory, and you react. But these are not necessarily properties – they are things that happen to us, without us controlling them. When you look at it a little deeper you see that there’s something else that can be added; they’re still limited to these three categories, but there’s a variation in two of them. So that we have two types of perception: sensory perception and mental perception. It’s still perception but one of them has to come through the senses while the other can come directly. The mind itself can see. And after you meditate or think on these long enough, you’ll encounter this thing called visualization. Now visualization is one method of mental perception, and there are others. The mind can be trained to see directly, such as in ESP, astral projection, these things. The mind can see by itself. It’s still perception, and it still records on the mundane memory.

06:06

And there’s another quality we add to these three and that is projection; as things come into the human organism, things also can be sent out. Now projection would seem to be the only thing that the human being does. He can’t stop perceiving; he can’t prohibit or stop remembering – the action called memory is going to happen whether he wants it to or not. And he can’t stop reacting, although perhaps he can desire to react a certain way, which is called morality, a moral reaction. And of course there’s some question as to whether you can even control the moral type of reaction. But this projection would seem to be something that we can control; that it’s the first time that we do something. We’ll see if it’s possible to actually control that – I don’t know whether it is. But as far as everyone generally thinks, we can.

07:16
=== Viewer and the view ===

Now this whole theme hinges on a very simple point: that the view is not the viewer. In a search for the self we are looking for the viewer; we are looking for him who sees. We’re looking for the self, in other words. There is a self. But strangely enough, the smartest people, meaning intellectually smart – men of degree and reputation, doctors even, psychologists – very seldom really define “I” or “me” or “self“ properly. This is a massive assumption that is crossed over, to the extent that when you start defining this thing you’re going to get into endless discussion and proof. But it’s just a very simple and logical deduction that if you’re looking for yourself, it’s not the environment. Now – where does environment end and “me” begin? Where is the “me” that is the essence-me?

08:41

Let’s take a simple situation: a person lying in bed smoking cigarettes. Let’s just first present it in a picture: Your toes are visible, and possibly by smoking you’re even aware of your lungs. But we realize that the toes are not us, basically because you can amputate them and keep on living. And by the same token, if you smoke too many cigarettes they might even take out a lung. You might take out a good bit of your body and still live.

09:31

So you’re going to have to identify the rest of the body likewise as not being us, not being the central “we”. And when you do this you start to embark upon what I call a retreat – a retreat from the common definition that is assumed by most people: that “us” is the body; that “us” is that which we would like to think we are; or that “us” may be body and mind or body-mind. Modern psychology seems to hint that there’s no such thing as a mind outside of a body-mind, a reaction mechanism. Incidentally, this little five-part formula for the human mind’s attributes doesn’t argue with modern psychology in this respect – except possibly for the idea of projection – that the body can be blamed for a tremendous lot of this: The body is the one that perceives through the senses, the body is the brain, the brain is somatic, the DNA molecule is somatic. And the reaction is automatic – it’s like an electrical current triggering something and causing a reaction. But I think after you dig awhile you become aware that the somatic mind is identifiable and it is not us.

So when you start looking, you start by looking at your actions – and you generally don’t see your actions until you get a reflection from someone else, or you run afoul of society and run into criticism, or you get sick. So let’s say in the process of smoking a cigarette the person develops a cough, and he gets the fear that maybe he’ll be going into cancer. And this is when he realizes that the one who decided to smoke the cigarette is not him, because he argues with him – and by this he finds himself looking inside. We’re going into a meditative process now – this is what we’re trying to do tonight – take a person into a phase of simple meditation: what you would think about if you were lying in bed smoking a cigarette. This might be what would enter your mind. And this will lead you back to just simply analyzing your actions, to see which of those actions are you and which aren’t you.

12:39

And we find that we’re a composition – our so-called personality. We may have abandoned the idea that we’re the body by looking at our toes and our fingernails, and saying that this evidently isn’t us – because in seven years the entire body will be changed, it will be a different us. So where is the unchanging us? Where is this thing that is really us forever? Or which is the most durable part, if it is not that? But we come to some conclusions: that we eat and we want to eat, we want pleasure, we want power, peace of mind and a few other possible objectives – and that some of these things conflict. They conflict so strongly that we decide at some given time that they are not us.

13:41

Now take the case of a fellow who drinks. He once decided that it’s a harmless pastime, it’s just a few beers – and the next thing you know he’s an alcoholic. And eventually he gets put in jail or he gets into a fix – he may lose his property or something like that. But he gets into trauma, and he realizes that this is not him. And then he goes – he doesn’t say, “We’re going down to the doctor,” no. “I’m going down to get rid of this monkey that’s on my back.” He finally realizes that it’s a monkey on his back. Before that he thought it was one of his voices or egos – he was expanding, he was using alcohol to stimulate his business and become rich and powerful and popular and everything else, that it’s a great social lubricant.

14:29

So we find that the personality, the thinking process that we took to be our mind, that we thought was us – we find that the mind itself is playing tricks. Over a long period of time – sometimes ten and twenty years build up before a person realizes that something inside of him has played tricks on him. So we’ve got a dichotomy. There’s a manifest dichotomy, no way around it: how can a person play tricks on themselves? But this is manifestly true. A fellow is put in jail and somebody says to him, “You’re a drunk,” or, “You’ve got a habit.” Or he’s in jail because of some social habit, or he rapes somebody or he steals. All of these are the result of appetites. And these appetites are the result of what I call voice-drives. And these accumulate – they don’t necessarily start spontaneously in a few seconds.

13:35

So the person goes along in a certain way and suddenly has to face himself. And it doesn’t have to be a really violent or traumatic thing that brings about this revelation; there are lots of little things – just the fact that you don’t get along with people. You build up a certain phase in your personality that you believe is you, and you go along and you prosper with it. And then one day it falls apart. Your personality gets you fired from your job, or your girlfriend or boyfriend drops you and says, “I can’t stand you anymore; you’re too hard to get along with.” And then we see that there’s some part of us that we don’t like. And all of us will admit this dichotomy, that there’s no such thing as a monistic mentality, a monistic mind. We admit the dichotomy now.

16:27

=== Umpire ===

I maintain that this is our first view of the mind. And a tremendous lot of people assume that this is the only mind there is. But I call this mind the umpire. It’s part of the program, the computer. This is a physical mechanism, and the physical mechanism is set here for a certain purpose. It’s programmed to produce its own continuation; it’s programmed to survive. So that these different impulses, which conflict with each other to a certain extent, are still parts of the person that are thrown into the computer when the person is born. They’re implanted.

17:33

So then, why is a person born? Manifestly, if you take the end result of what happens in what people do with their lives – we’re manifestly born to reproduce. So we have a sexual urge backed up by a survival urge – everything has a survival urge – and here are two urges working together, reinforcing each other. And then add the pleasure urge. All of these things seem to harmonize together to make a powerful drive toward reproduction.

18:12

Now, say the person has the desire for reproduction but maybe economically is not too keen – has trouble getting a job or something of that sort, or maybe has too much of a reproductive urge – lord knows what causes it – but we hear of a lot of people getting into trouble because of their reproductive urges. And the fellow gets rebuffed – whether he gets rebuffed by his mate or his would-be mate, or whether he gets thrown in jail for rape or whatever the score is. But it’s possible that one of these urges that we identify ourself with very strongly can be so obnoxious that we finally will not identify it any longer as being us. It is something that afflicts us. So then an interior sense, an interior voice says, “Hey, that is not you and you’d better do something about it, if you want to live.”

19:12

And that’s what happens. Something is watching the man raping and going to jail, or getting rejected or losing his job – and this is the viewer. This is the viewer, the rapist is the view. The umpire becomes the view. We are watching. That which watches is the essence, and that which is rejected by that anterior mind is not us. If it were us, well then we’d be suicidal; we would be allowing one of these voices to destroy us. (Well, we generally do anyhow. We generally wind up destroyed by the various voices. Ambition or sex or booze or something gets us, because we can’t hold a balance with all the different appetites that assail us.) So there is in the computer, built in, an umpire, which is not us. We can watch it working, and if you can watch something that’s working, whatever is working is the view.

20:32
=== Process observer ===
So what is watching the umpire? I call it the “process observer”. These are simple terms; rather than use complex psychological terms, or try to keep abreast of psychological terms that would be similar, I prefer to pick something very simple. Now we’re going through a meditative process in what I consider an orderly, common-sense way.

There’s another analogy that I’ve used at times called the camera analogy, in which I liken man to be a ray of light that comes out of a camera towards a screen. And the screen is the void. These are more or less Zen-ish terms, in which the world is looked upon as an illusion – which is a hypothesis because that’s not known until you prove it’s an illusion. But regardless, there is a way. In our meditation, if we feel that we are nothing but a ray of God or something of that sort, there’s only one way to approach that. And that’s not to theorize in dictionary-terminology such as theology might employ, but to actually get into that ray and go back through the camera. In other words, go to the source, instead of verbalizing.

21:53

But what we’re doing here is a much simpler way, because you’re watching your own actions. You watch your observation of the umpire, of this decision-making process, and you find out that you’re aware; you become aware that you are watching it. You’re watching processes, you’re watching the manipulations of the mind which are not us. And this is why in Zen occasionally you’ll hear this term “kill the mind”. This is the mind they talk about killing. A lot of people think that when they say “kill the mind” it means to overdose on drugs – that this is the path to enlightenment, to kill your head or something. No – this is the trouble with picking a word out of a text, from an old philosophy that has been translated for four or five hundred years, and trying to explain it or trying to use it fundamentalistically for your own use. When they say “kill the mind” they mean to kill the mundane mind – not to kill it necessarily, but this is a sharp word to emphasize that something drastic has to be done. But you have to get beyond the umpire. You have to get beyond this need to continually ride herd over these appetites and the counterchecks to the appetites and all this sort of thing.

23:20

Before we got to the process observer it was very simple observation: We see a bottle of whiskey, we see a thirst, we have a sensory understanding that these two things can cause trouble or pleasure, or both. But when you get into the process observer your mental observations become gestaltic. Now when I use the word gestalt I’m talking about pattern thinking, not in the Fritz Perls idea of gestalts. The original idea of gestalts was that we think in patterns. Sometimes a single word may symbolize an entire philosophic approach. A few seconds of thinking along a certain line may embody a whole philosophy – this is what I mean by gestaltic thinking. The process observer is a gestaltic operator. And it starts watching. This is the real meditation that sets in, the real raja yoga or whatever you want to call it, whereby a person watches his mind go through certain loops and shenanigans, gymnastics and so on.

24:39

And then somewhere along the line he becomes aware of the process observer itself. Because we’re watching this thing now: something is watching the observer watching the umpire. Now what are we getting to? We’re getting to where we might think that there’s no point from which you can’t watch something else. So it looks like the real self is going to escape you; it’s just going to go further and further back – every time you look it’s going to be behind you, or behind that operation. But this isn’t true; it’s simply a matter of purification – a purification of the concept of self.

25:21

So that when you come down to the final self it will not be by logically finding a kernel inside of a kernel inside of a kernel. It will be a cracking of the final kernel. And when this occurs, then all of these things are – not illusory; in their own dimension they are real and necessary – but they are not the real self. They are all relative and describable. The final realization of course isn’t necessarily describable, because of the nature of what happens, and by what has been demonstrated or talked about by people who made the breakthrough.

26:14

To give you some hints on the type of mental processes you have to take into account in order to get behind this process observer (and you really have to get behind it): What happens in the observer who watches the process observer, is that this person just watches. This is awareness. This self watches, and that’s all. And when you get to the point where there’s only watching, and no qualification, you’re getting pretty close. Now how does this happen? We’re getting close to an absolute watcher. We’re not getting something that defines things as good or bad, white or black, high or low, in or out. And the reason this type of observation is necessary is because of the field that we’re studying.

27:19
=== Observation process ===

And I came to the conclusion that our whole observation process is erratic, and let me see if I can take you through it. Our scientific world is based upon matter; and this materialistic or matter-philosophy is based upon measurement – measurement of matter with matter. In other words, if we want to measure a foot, which we divide into twelve inches, we use a thing called a ruler, and somebody has to make the ruler. Along with this, we find out that there are limitations in our science itself – and this has been noted by others besides myself: Chilton-Pearce was one, and Thomas Kuhn. In Ornstein’s book , he talks about the duality of the mind; he splits the mind in half, one hemisphere of the brain being a subjective dream-type side, which he calls the “dancer”, and the other being the logical side. In this book he brings out that we don’t have much of a language in science. We have what we call agreement; that basically, everything is tentative. We have a tentative agreement, even in such very strict disciplines as mathematics and chemistry.

29:24

We find in mathematics that there’s a certain philosophy given that more or less throws all mathematics in jeopardy. I have cited the case that when I was majoring in chemistry forty years ago we had ninety-two elements – and we had the fiat along with it that there would be no more: Man had dissolved the universe in a test tube and there would only be ninety-two elements. Our whole universe was composed of ninety-two parts, and now all we had to do was go to work on those ninety-two and find out the real nature of the universe. Since then of course in our atomic chart we’ve got over one hundred elements. The agreement has changed. The agreement changed on oxygen from phlogiston; the scientists who were venerated two hundred years ago believed in a substance called phlogiston, and it evolved into oxygen.

30:28

And we’re inclined when we go into a classroom to take anything as law that’s put into a scientific textbook. Because the average student doesn’t have time to disprove it, although he may have intuition enough to sense that everything is not as proven as the author of the book would like to have him think. Now, what I’m getting at – this is a very important point – is that our understanding of the universe is an agreement, and that is all.

[side 1 ends at 31:05]

== File 2 ==
Time = 31:00 minutes
[no break in tape, because there is overlap side 1 and side 2]
[no paragraph]

We have measured matter with matter.

=== Definitions ===

Now what is the definition of these? And what is the purpose of a definition? A definition is the description of something relative to something that it is not. It’s a comparison of opposites, not a comparison of similarities. We don’t say that bread is bread; we don’t say that a cat is a cat. We say that a cat is not everything that is not a cat. In other words, we use all sorts of terminology that relates to almost the rest of the dictionary, to bring us around to the fact that a cat is just something that is not everything else. Now if you analyze the definition of everything else, this is what it gets down to, that we don’t have any clear-cut definition of things except in relation to each other. We are only relatives; we are only measuring our degree of relation and agreement.

01:09

Now what’s wrong with this? What’s wrong with it is basically that in order to understand matter, I maintain you will have to be removed from matter and define it from an outside category. We can define an apple in terms of a pear, or by genus and specie, but when you take matter itself and start to define it in terms of matter, you can’t do it. And who is going to do it except the psychic? – somebody outside that dimension. So the person possibly from a deep spiritual experience may give you a better definition of the universe, the construction of the universe, by virtue of being the only person able to define it properly, because he’s outside.

01:56
=== The mind ===
Now here you get into a mental world. You start watching the mind, and the mind becomes tangible and objective – as soon as anything is observable it is objective. And we can’t get beyond it by our relative, tangible, objective method of studying the mind. We can do it for awhile – we can isolate, we can retreat from it, we can observe, and watch the process of observing, and write books and books on psychological observations. But we’re stuck, because we’re defining the mind with the mind, which is equally as fallacious as describing matter with matter. So we somehow have to step outside the mind. All of your works of psychology, no matter how many centuries they’re indulged in, will not bring us an understanding of the mind until we get behind it, or get beyond it.

02:59

In other words we are only able to describe it in agreement, and that’s unfortunately where all psychology is today, the same as all your material sciences, only it’s worse. Because the people with a political aim or who wish to be funded for various social services control a lot of it, and it’s a worse situation. I consider psychology as the new religion, the religion that has supplanted the old conventional religions possibly, that were destroyed by their own superstitions. But now we’ve got a new religion and a new set of superstitions that will be more tyrannical, and are more tyrannical. Where one sent you to the stake, the other can send you to the nuthouse, or can execute you or testify before a jury that you’re sane and responsible for your acts – and no human being is responsible for his acts.

03:56

But anyhow, we encounter this introspection in mysticism, we encounter it in psychology; and I maintain that you can find yourself through this self-analysis. When we talk about self-analysis we’re talking about the highest form of psychology. Anybody can compare inkblots, anybody can stick pins, get reflexes and reactions, and map charts on how many people jerk to the left and how many jerk to the right, and form a behavioristic psychology. But how many people know what the mind is? I challenged the psychiatrists – we had a Chautauqua down at the farm and some came to the Chautauqua – and I have challenged every one of them I ever met to give me a definition of thought, give me a definition of mind, outside of a loose agreement. I read one book where they say the mind is a loose collective personality – but then we’ve got to define personality, and it just turns around to be anything you wish it to be. You even say a man thinks or a man wishes – but what’s a thought? what’s a wish? And yet these people can pump you full of counter-drugs, thought-drugs.

But getting back to this – we’re not interested in the machinations too much, except that there are some mechanics running around who can destroy the machinery.

05:15

The thing is that we’re trying to get behind the human mind. And the only hope that you have is for some mechanism by which you can get behind it. Now I’ve outlined something that will take you to a point where your head stops. And up until now what I said may have been very reasonable to you, but the rest is experience. When you reach a certain point in this self-analysis your head will stop and a phenomenon occurs. The phenomenon is the knowledge of nothing.

05:56

pause

06:08

When you start looking at the mind with the mind intently you reach an intense frustration. When you start watching all of your actions clear from the sensory impulses and perceptions up to the very complex process analyses, you become more and more despairing or frustrated – finally to a point when it seems like you’re just inclined to say it’s hopeless. I went through that myself, where I just thought, “I can’t get beyond this; this whole thing’s hopeless.” But some urge that stimulates you, or prompts you, some bullheadedness or some tenacity in you to keep on plugging away at this, may bring you to a point of what I call an explosion. And this is when it’s no longer the mind, but the awareness that is in the front. The simple awareness is out front.

07:11

Now when this experience passes, of course, you will try to verbalize. You go back to the relative dimension of speech and you’ll try to verbalize what you’ve experienced, and it’s very difficult. And the result is that when you read books, from accounts, unless you’ve had the experience yourself you’ll consider most of them a bunch of liars or people who were hysterical, or who were seeing from quite a few different viewpoints. The truth of the matter is that this is just the result of the difficulty of words, a person trying to verbalize an absolute experience or an absolute type of experience. And each one will verbalize it with the personality he had before and with the language and vocabulary that he had before, and perhaps the philosophy he had before. So that a John of the Cross will have a Christian experience, and a Chinese philosopher may have a Buddhistic experience, or tie it to Buddhism. It doesn’t matter. The thing is that it’s internal. But his words may be different when he describes it.

08:24
=== More about the umpire ===
There’s another thing you’ll see, let’s say as your perspective broadens. As soon as you start watching the umpire you’ll become a trifle indignant. And I think that you might be able to measure religions or philosophic movements by how far they went in their self-analyses. Some religions reach a point in which they do nothing but denounce the umpire, or denounce the inabilities of the umpire. And they call this the devil; the umpire seems to be the devil. The umpire neglects to properly take care of the person. So the word evil or devil is chosen to lay the blame and start a battle. Because it’s evident that people wanting to get off the hook want to do some type of battle, and we have to have an adversary to do battle, so we create one.

09:42

After you watch this umpire for awhile and realize that it’s just a programming that nature put in you to keep you alive long enough to reproduce – then it’s no longer a devil. And what I mean is that this umpire is basically here exactly for that purpose. For instance a person getting into sex too young – there’s an instinct in mankind against that, at least in this country up until the last twenty or thirty years. We’ve lost all our survival instincts I think on that line. I think the tendency now would be to educate children on sex starting in the first grade, so that by the time they’re twelve they’ll be so completely debauched they won’t have any drive left to go out and rape anybody or get in trouble. But the whole purpose is simple: if you have a farm you don’t let your heifers in with the bull. It’s not a question of elitism or fear or prudishness. If you want to raise healthy cows you keep the heifers away from the bull until they’re two years old. And if you want to raise human heifers that are healthy and productive, you keep them away from the bull until they’re fifteen or eighteen years of age, or you’ll have runts. It takes a certain amount of time to produce a healthy creature. And you can’t say, “Well, they did it at fifteen, let’s try it fourteen. They did it a fourteen, let’s try thirteen. It didn’t seem to hurt at thirteen, let’s go back to twelve.”

11:36

So what it basically amounts to is that there are certain fears and certain antagonisms in human beings. Now some of these are for each other: jealousy and that sort of thing. But legislation is put down to preserve the body so that it can properly reproduce, and not only reproduce but to support the child. So that if a guy’s bombed out of his head to a point where he can’t keep a job, he can’t support a child – he’s an enemy of nature. Now this is basic, somatic, natural psychology. You’re no blasted good if you can’t support your children. You shouldn’t reproduce if you can’t support your children. There’s not an indefinite entity called the establishment or the country or the government that should support all the children that all the dishrags would like to produce.

12:30

So this is built in by whatever you want to call it: God or the engineer, or the automatic blueprint that was put into the human being – as in all the animals; we’re just a little bit more egotistical form of flesh. But the blueprint is in there. This voice, the umpire, is there to say, “Hey, don’t eat too much, you’ll blow your gut and you’ll not reproduce tomorrow,” – or you’ll get so fat that you won’t be able to, or you’ll get some disease, your heart will get bad and you’ll be inclined to have a heart attack and you won’t be able to raise your kids.

13:11

And the same thing goes for the power complex, or any of them. Any of them can kill us. But nevertheless, these egos, this survival ego, these vanities are put in us. Because if we weren’t vain we wouldn’t pursue. The male has to have this tremendous rooster complex: that he is in demand, that all he has to do is go out and make a few flourishes with his feathers and things will happen, and that this is his main purpose on earth. The computer somehow puts him in check, and then at some time or another it also turns him loose. Now – I say the umpire us not us and it’s not even a good protector. And once your purpose is served, you’re expendable; somehow the computer or the umpire seems to have done its job, it disappears, and somebody else replaces you – with an equal amount of vanity that you had when you were playing the rooster.

14:15

And I think that all of this is in order. There’s nothing wrong with it; this is just nature defending itself; nature having blueprints – which all of the erudite sociologists and psychologists are going to change – they’re going to reprogram it. They’re going to reprogram us so that we will survive; we’ll get vaccinated against the detrimental qualities of perversion, dissipations, narcotism and alcoholism and God knows what.

So this is just basic survival. If you’re just interested in basic survival, then you get as far as the umpire. You may even form a religion, you may even call your actions sins, in order to help reinforce yourself against an early death. This is basically what religion is – it’s somatic, that type of religion. Now there are religions that go beyond that, but they have so little popular appeal that the meetings are held in caves and God knows where.

[break in tape – apparently at the 45 min break ]

15:38
=== Perceptions, projections, visions ===
There’s one other point in the basis of perception. As I said before, there’s more than one type: there’s sensory perception and mental perception And it’s necessary to understand this. Because we see a lot of stuff and we like to think “we” see it, but we don’t define who is “we”. We don’t define what’s going on when we’re seeing.

16:14

For instance, suppose you see a green apple – this is visual perception – and you throw the apple out the window. And then we can visualize the apple sitting right here on the table. We can still see that apple in our mind’s eye, sitting right here. We can even close our eyes; we don’t have to see it sitting there, we can see it in our minds. And we can see almost anything that way. Now of course they call this memory. But – supposing we have this apple in our mind’s eye and we decide that we’re going to have little red diamonds a half inch apart all the way around the outside perimeter. We visualize an apple with little red diamonds. Incidentally, there are a lot of cults – and I identify them as cults – that do nothing but visualize. I was listening to this tape the other day and somebody is saying, “See o-r-a-n-g-e. Now see blue.” And so on. And he’s taking people through this course, a hundred and fifty bucks for a weekend, for seeing different colors, being able to visualize them.

17:20

But regardless, you can. You can see an apple with swastikas on it if you wish. Now what is this? This is actually a mental picture. It is a mental picture that is seen that has never been real; there has never been an apple that grew on a tree that had diamonds or swastikas on it. So this is what I call visualization. This is the ability of the mind to create. And what it does, it projects someplace. As we say, we see it in our head, it’s projected there. A picture is seen. Anything that is seen is substantial. Whenever anything is recorded – like if five people see a mirage – then that mirage is substantial. That’s the same evidence that sends a man to the electric chair – five people, two people perhaps, can send him to the electric chair. If two people see a mirage, that’s legal evidence. It’s scientific evidence, it’s testimony, it exists. Erratic? – sure, it may be erratic; because when they move up to the scene where the mirage seems to be it’s not there.

18:34

But regardless, we have that ability to project, to create. And unless we understand our ability to project and create, we cannot start to look inside of our own head, because every step of the way we’re visualizing and projecting. How many people have been in the process of projecting what love is? – the color of the horse the man had to ride in on, what the horse looked like, what the guy looked like, the qualities that he had inside of him. Then projecting phony qualities of the person who is meeting the man on the horse. We’ve built up a whole phony system of the princess with no faults, nothing but every superlative, meeting the man on the horse, who has nothing but superlatives, and waiting for ten, fifteen, twenty years for this visualization to come true – angrily hating the world, because other people refuse to believe that dream.

19:46

So unless a person sees this early in life we go on. Sometimes we don’t know it; sometimes we think, “Oh, yes, I know what you’re talking about. I don’t get into that stuff.” No – you’re into something else, some other form of visualization. But this form of internal looking is a projection of this process-observer mind. It’s a mental projection. I’ll give you some examples of these different things now.

20:29
=== Examples ===

Sensory perceptions: Objects are apprehended. Now when I say apprehended it means the things that you see or things you hear, touch, smell, etc., the five or six senses.

Memory perception: This is remembering and also visualization. But when you remember anything – for instance if I say to you that you would remember that log cabin you were born in, and it flashes back into your head: a farm back on a hillside with a certain slope, the logs sticking out of the corners of the log cabin, etc. – an exact picture, everything coming back to your head. Now this is a vision. This is not a projection. This is a perception. Whenever the memory is stimulated it produces a vision – even if it’s only a split second, if you’re running through things very rapidly ...

[ break in tape ]

21:34

... and you can see that, you can recall that. Call it back and it will appear.

Reaction visions: There are visions that we can only describe as being reactions; we don’t know their nature, we just react and we see them. We react to a certain situation, place, time, etc. – these are ghosts, visitations, mind projections. Sometimes these are things that we project out of the mind and seemingly see with the physical eye. But we project them first.

Holograms: A hologram is a reaction but we just don’t react properly with a hologram.

Hallucinations: Again, we don’t react properly; we see something that’s not there because it twists somewhere inside our seeing mechanism. In other words, our sensory-perception mechanism is not infallible. And this is another reason why we should question our own judgment in a lot of things.

22:34

Mental perceptions: This is a person perceiving with their awareness; true revelations about an unknown environment acting upon the mind, or the mind acting upon the mind.

22:54

Then we have deliberate projections. Is it possible to deliberately project? This is the fifth quality of the mind. We have ESP – that seemingly people do sit down and project. Also astral projection; and there’s another thing called zapping – this has been pretty well substantiated as being a power of the mind.

23:17

Okay, I don’t know whether I got the point across. If not, I hope that some of your questions will bring this across to you.

=== Man’s purpose ===

Q. In what you’re describing about nature, what is the purpose of getting this knowledge? To prepare you for the transcendental? [rest is inaudible]

24:14

R. I wouldn’t say that. I’d just say you start to see your purpose. And I don’t think that needs to be the only purpose, and I’m not inferring it’s a negative pursuit. I’m just saying that once you get wise to it, you may not have to suffer, you may not have to drown as quickly. In other words, you’re going to die. We’re talking about death. You’re dying right now; everyone here is dying, we’re approaching a certain end. Now – you can jump out the window or you can do it slowly. Consequently, when you realize what you’re programmed for, then naturally the unspoken thing is – what can you do to prolong it, while you’re taking time to learn? You don’t know, and a erson has to prepare themselves in order to find out. What I’m trying to avoid for you is this idea of blasting yourself into knowledge. And instead trying to take a methodical, possibly laborious course of finding your definition, as opposed to extreme measures. It’s never been done with extreme measures.

25:32

And the other inclination we have, and I can’t argue with it, because every one of us has it: everyone moves as they’re supposed to move. Each person has a certain capacity, and no rationalization will identify their capacity, and you don’t argue with it. I hear people saying, “What good is that? – let’s eat, drink and be merry, because everybody’s kidding themselves who thinks there’s another objective in life.” And the proper thing to do, outside of saying, “Well, what is happiness?” or, “Who is being happy?” is to let the person eat, drink and be merry. Because if he doesn’t have the intuition or instinct or whatever is necessary, or hasn’t inherited the proper computer to do the work, he’s not going to go anyhow. He’s going to do what he was destined or programmed for. But the whole idea is trying to get a breath of relief from the programming, the treadmill.

26:46
=== Zapping ===
Q. What is the zapping you referred to?

R. Well, zapping is an instantaneous hypnosis. Zapping is a technique that came out of India. Gurdjieff could zap. The first instance I ran into with zapping – there were certain yogis who came into this country forty of fifty years ago. One of them was Meher Baba, , and he could look at you and you would collapse; he would just stare at you. Gurdjieff could look at you and you’d collapse. Because he established a mind-to-mind contact and then he pulled the strength out of you. There has been enough of this that has happened, and it’s predictable. They can predict they can do it and it can be done. And you can do it if you’re somewhat astute in hypnosis; you can knock people off their feet.

27:51
=== LSD trip ===
Q. [mostly inaudible – John Lily’s immersion tank ]

28:04

R: [inaudible – cracks some jokes] I’ve never been in one. I don’t know what it would do for you. It might be worth trying. I just don’t like the machinery there. It might be good. I’ll tell you something else, though: I don’t believe that you can take just anybody and put them there. It’s like LSD. I remember talking back four or five or six years ago with some people who had LSD and psilocybin and some other drugs. And I said, “What does this do for you?” One girl was talking about it, and she was pretty much of an authority on it – she had ruined both her kidneys with it. I don’t know whether the LSD did it or the needles or what, but her kidneys were shot, and she was pretty much of a philosopher in her last days.

29:19

But she said to me, “You get out of LSD what you put into it.” And I find that this is very true. Certain people take the same LSD – and one has nightmares, pursued by monsters and bad trips or something, while another person will take the identical LSD and have almost a spiritual experience. And I think the same thing goes for any of these experiments. You can’t get blood out of a turnip. If a person has certain basic innate qualities and they go into spiritual research, they either have to change their state of being – this is one of the secrets of it – before they go into it, or they’ll get what they’re going in for. And I think this is the way with a lot of stuff. The so-called workshops that occurred on the west coast – I suspected the motives of the people in it. I don’t think they were clear enough in their head to get the proper results. And I don’t think there’s too much difference between a man going into a tank like that or a yogi going out on a mountain where there is no one else, where he’s alone with the universe and that sort of thing. But if a person just goes out on a mountain with a hatful of vices and hangups and weakness, he’s not going to get anything ...

[ break in tape ]
[ side 2 ends 31:00 ]

== File 3 ==

Time = 31:25

... [whether that’s] for two lifetimes or ten lifetimes. He has to put something out there. I took LSD once – I was trying to see whether it would break open an experiential field that I had been in before. And I had a beautiful, a very beautiful experience. I died, incidentally. It started off by dying – I went through a death experience, and then I had a very beautiful experience. And I compare this with hundreds of young people that I talk to, and they couldn’t understand: an old bastard like me should have had a rough trip. I had a nice trip. But I think it was because of the way I approached it. I had prepared myself for it too. You can prepare yourself for these things.

00:55

I’m not trying to change a trend today, I’m only trying to sort some people out who may pick up an intuition from what I’m saying, that you can’t indulge in these many voices that the umpire would reject and come up with any good results. There has to be a certain change of being before you go into a search for spiritual experience. In other words, there’s a trend to have experience; there are a lot of people who want experience. And I’ve run into quite a few of them; they’d come down to my place and want to stay there, and I’d find out that they were into – I mean a whole lot of vices – and they thought that they could continue these things, all of these let’s say open spigots on the computer. The computer has to be shut. You have to put the material in the computer and then you shut off the input and the output, if you want a decision out of the computer. You can’t have a bunch of monkeys in there all the time jumping around. You’ll have an experience and what will your experience be? Monkeys. That’s all.

02:16
=== Words ===
Q. [Mostly inaudible question on meaning.]

02:29

R. Here’s the whole thing about words: words have whatever meaning you give them. That’s why I talk about the language of agreement. The unfortunate thing is that we don’t always agree on words or understand what another person means. For instance we use this word exceptional – you think that an exceptional person is a genius, but you pick up a dictionary and no, it’s a resident in a nuthouse. Another example is the words objective and subjective: as soon as a subjective matter is under scrutiny it becomes objective. This may be along the lines you’re talking about, semantics or meaning, and the meaning is very vague. The words don’t mean a whole lot, no matter who it is who’s talking. Sometimes the most you can do, as I said, is pick up something by intuition. That’s the key. Because words will confuse you.

03:35

Q. What was it you meant by “somatic”?

R. Somatic means the body

Q. You were talking about somatic religion.

03:54

R. I believe that a lot of our religion is somatic, and a lot of this is rejected. That we can only think in terms of ecstasy or hell. Especially the Christian religions. The tremendous love relationship between a sadistic God and a whole herd of masochistic people, who just love to go to hell.

04:28
=== Umpire and egos ===
Q. Once you realize that the umpire is programming, do you gain control over that and maybe stop its vices, or do you just watch its vices go on forever?

04:52

R. We know in almost all cases where we undertake therapy, that the change occurs with the recognition of the error. There’s no sense in trying to change the mechanism. Like with this idea of the survival urge: the survival urge is contributory to death but it also contributes to long life. If you try to mess with it you may get into prostate cancer. But you recognize what’s going on: where previously you thought that you were reproducing, that you were the rooster of the world, now you see that all of it doesn’t matter; it’s going to happen whether you’re there or not.

05:49

And it isn’t a question of denouncing, or labeling stuff as evil, or something of that sort – that’s nonsense. I don’t intend to apply that. I’m just saying that you become detached. And most people when they get older – I’m not saying all; I’ve seen people ninety years of age who couldn’t see, they were blind, they were still trying to feel, and they never got detached – but most people after awhile look upon all of this scheme as nonsense. But by then it’s too late. What I’m trying to do is to age some young people. And that’s basically why they get their detachment, if it’s done.

06:39

I was doing a little bit of reading or digging, trying to find out where this thing of guilt came from. And I noticed the predominance of guilt in the Christian religion. Then I started looking through the religions of India and Asia and Zen and all this sort of thing. And where is the guilt in Zen? You don’t find it. You find that they pretty much ignore it. But there’s a thread that runs through all the Hindu religions, and it’s generally spoken in let’s say little aphorisms. I ran into this when I first started studying yoga, years ago; I was a kid about twenty-three years old. And there was this little aphorism – I can’t remember exactly, but it says basically that all pain is caused by desire. Now where the Christian religion builds up a tremendous monster, “Oh, don’t you do this, because you’ll get so many years in the hot seat,” the eastern religions recognize the fact that man burns himself. Like St. Paul said, “If you don’t marry, you’ll burn.” That man can burn himself by his desires. Now – this means that for anything you desire there are voices. These are egos. And any ego if you don’t develop some sort of detachment from it can burn you. It can cause you pain, ultimately. It can obsess you. It can develop a monkey.

08:20

Q. When you start the spiritual search you discover your selfishness and your egos and your desires. And then you move through that, you keep going and you lose your original reasons for searching. So then what keeps you going?

08:46

R. I’ll tell you what happened to me. Different people have different motivations. My original motivation for getting on a spiritual search was selfish. Looking at it from this viewpoint, I consider it very selfish. I had the conceit, number one, that I could master psychology, magic, kabala, astrology, all of these – which I look upon now as very weird pastimes – I would master all these things and become somewhat of a threat to humanity. But I didn’t go very far until it dawned on me that while all this power was being built up, I wasn’t achieving the big thing I would really want. And that was what? – that nowhere was I incorporating or getting in the general package enough knowledge to prolong my life, beyond the ordinary span of any other animal that was programmed to live so long.

09:59

And I came to the conclusion – and I don’t expect to and don’t particularly care to live any longer than my lifespan – but I realized then that what I wanted was to know the score. The motivation changed, and the ego-prompted thing wasn’t so important. But I maintain that you’ve got to hang in with your egos. This thing of abolishing egos or dropping egos is foolishness. This is the reason people get into too much dope or too much booze. They write it off in a sort of suicidal thing: “Oh, well I’ll go out that way, I’ll return to nirvana.” I heard a person make a remark one time – they found some people dead on a doorstep up in New York who had overdosed – and somebody said, “Oh, what a beautiful way to go.” How do they know? How do they know they went to nirvana, that they dropped all their egos? They may have entered oblivion, because of the range of their experience.

10:55

But regardless, it’s necessary to hang onto the survival ego, until you’ve got something better to replace it with. When you reach your final experience you’ll drop it – you have to die, you have to go through the death experience to achieve it – but you return. And you return once more hanging onto your survival ego, or you can’t function. So these are all implants, necessary to keep you moving. They’re not evil. They’re not evil in themselves. The only thing is to learn how to play the violin, to learn which finger to play, which ego to play. I call it “milk from thorns” – use this interior negative energy to develop curiosity – the right curiosity, not for the porno movies.

11:47

But you do change. You create what I call a vector – it’s an engineering term but it describes best what happens – that after awhile you’ll realize that you’re not an individual, you’re not a unique rooster that the world will never forget. And when that happens, the rooster that caused all this seems to be left behind. But what happened in the meantime was that you developed a vector – a curiosity, a dynamic hunger, a drive – and that stays with you. And that is basically who you are when the thing is over. You are not the rooster, you are not the person named Jack or Jill, you are a vector. You are basically a vector. You are what you do. Every man is what he does.

12:55
=== Emotions, desires, implants ===

Q. Could you comment on emotions and their application if any towards the search?

R. Well, emotions are combinations of implants and appetites, basically. In other words, we react in a certain way, and the reaction sometimes is reinforced. For instance the emotion of love, the yearning if you’ve had love to be loved again and this sort of thing, is nothing more than an implant. It’s nothing divine. A lot of people like to think that their most mundane reproductive mechanisms are divine. If they are, then so are a goat’s, because I’ve watched them make love and I think they have a real mental experience. But that’s emotion.

14:04

Q. Inaudible.

R. No, they’re confusing. You have to be aware, you have to watch that too, you have to watch that happen. Because it’s a desire. For instance a kid wants a toy and the other kid takes the toy, and then you see anger. First of all it’s artificial. When the little child first shows anger it’s artificial, it’s just a means, of puffing up like a toad or something to frighten the other child out of the toy. But eventually it develops into a lifetime practice of anger – which we would call emotion. But these are basically mechanisms that are rooted in our desires, in our programming.

14:53

Q. Are you making a distinction between desires and emotion?

R. No, no. I mean the desire is basic, the emotion is the external manipulation they go through.

Q. Then the desire is just an implant.

R. Right, right.

Q. And anything else is just a reaction off that.

15:11

R. Yes, the emotion comes off the desire. There are two basic implants that the human has – by implants I mean that they’re programmed inside of you. One is desire and the other is curiosity. And we can’t control this. We can’t control our curiosity, and the thing is to recognize it and then use that in the vector. Use the curiosity in the right direction: allow yourself to be curious about philosophy or self-definition or something of that sort. The desire is organic; there’s no other explanation for it except that when the hormones develop to a certain point we develop desires. And a child, even though it doesn’t seem to have a hormonic domination, still has a desire for possession, desire for what it wants, the desire for a certain status – it doesn’t want the parent to leave, it doesn’t want to be weaned and this sort of thing. Those are all implants. They seem very complex, but after you look at them for a while they go back to a very basic appetite: we have a desire to possess and we have a desire to be in charge. The child has the desire to be in charge of its mother, and it will go through a period when it will try to run the whole house, to get things that it wants.

16:49

But these are all programmed in, and they go from parent to child to child, on indefinitely. You trace certain desire-patterns. Whether they get them by watching the parents or they’re inherited with the DNA molecules, I don’t know. But these are two things that are not us, and they’re organic, animal. The animals have them too. It’s very difficult when you observe the behavior of an animal closely enough and then observe the behavior of a human being, to see much difference in the program. The only thing that I could see is that somehow we’ve got a better choice; we can choose our actions a little better and we can think more. We also have more confusion, and out of more confusion can come more wisdom – I shouldn’t say wisdom, but more realization. In other words, we invented a complex language that gives us something to worry ourselves with.

17:57
=== Projections ===
Q. You were talking about projections. Let’s say an individual is looking at a female – could that be a projection that could be pulled back?

18:19

R. Well, you always have some type of projection. The idea is basically that a person doesn’t pull them back, but you outgrow them, you wear them out. You marry the character and then it belches in your face – and you say, “That ain’t a princess.” You just outgrow it. But you have a new projection then, a new rationalization. A new one will be built up. And of course we’ve got some magical words we use to supplant them. One of them is friendship. If we can develop a friendship, we can tolerate all of our disappointments and our projections.

19:05

Q. Could our connection with reality then be changed from that?

R. Oh, my lord yes. This is the whole thing. You realize that the only contact we have with reality is our senses, which themselves are erroneous, as evidenced in the ability to see a limited color range, a limited hearing range, the ability to see mirages, hallucinations and that sort of thing. We have a limited world that we live in. And we realize after awhile that this entire world could very well be projected. All of it. This is the great possibility, when you’re watching your mind – if we can momentarily detach ourselves from this world of agreement and just not agree to all of it, and then see what happens.

20:09

Gurdjieff’s grandmother supposedly when she was dying said to him, “Whatever people do, no matter what it is, do the opposite.” In other words, in order to shake this; to shake this idea about everybody – that the people are right, that the law is right, that the minister is holy. And one by one over a period of years we come to a new state of mind on the thing. We catch the preacher in the beer joint, we catch our judges in similar situations, stealing and so on. But generally by then it’s too late. When you find these things out it’s too late to form an honest appraisal or to look at things differently.

21:08

Q. Is there is a way we can change our perspective and not allow our egos to control us?

R. Well, you can’t. You can’t rise above your own convictions, until they are replaced by themselves. But as Dan said, if you loaf with a bunch of people who are just trying to challenge their thinking, to challenge any system of thinking, this helps. It’s not to denounce, it’s not to say something is bad. Everything’s good, everything has its purpose. Everything lifts somebody up a little bit. But maybe it won’t lift you up. Maybe you already went through it.

21:55

And I know with myself, when I was into this stuff I thought, “Boy, this is it.” I was about twenty years old and I was getting into spiritualism and I thought, “All I have to do is go out and talk to these dead people and find out where they’re at, and get a map of the place, and that’s it, and everything’s solved.” But I found out that you couldn’t tell. I could talk for two hours on spiritualism and the things I discovered, that assured me that you’d never find anything through spiritualism; because everything is evasive.

And then I got into yoga and I thought, “Oh, boy, now I’m finally getting wise, I’m getting away from this nonsense, this superstitious stuff. And I encountered the same thing there. I took initiations in kriya yoga and shabd yoga – Kirpal Singh was one of the teachers. It was the Radha Soami science, basically – Eckankar is an offshoot of it – where you visualize sounds, visualize molasses on your tonsils. These are all little things that when you first hear them you think, “Oh, boy, we’re getting into this magical world.” This is nonexistent. It’s a curse. You’re creating something that you’re going to have to erase.

23:19

Now maybe some of you people are into this and you’ll get angry. “Oh, this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, because I was in that movement.” Okay, don’t argue with this person, because they have to go through it, that’s all. But if you can talk to him maybe you can save that guy ten years. I talked to a lady one time who was going on to seventy years of age, a Rosicrucian. And believe me, everyone I talked to – if a man told me he was a Theosophist or a Rosicrucian, especially if they’re sixty or seventy years old – I asked, “What did they do for you? What did you get out of it? Were there any great truths brought to you? Do you know the answer?”

24:03

Bob Martin and I when we were young went up to Cleveland and knocked on a Rosicrucian’s door – he was the head of this local circle up there. And he opened the door and took us in. This man had spent twenty-four years sending away for those mandamae [sp?] through the mail – two dollars a week for the rest of your life. So I thought this guy should know something; he should have something. And I said to him, “Would you endorse then the Rosicrucian Order?” And he said, “Oh, yes, a wonderful, wonderful group of people.” I said, “What did they do, basically, for you? Is there anything you can tell us, for instance, that would inspire me to follow your path?” And he said, “Let me think – did you ever see a needle float on water?” I mean this is the truth. He takes me into the kitchen and floats a needle on water. And I thought, “Twenty-four years to learn to float a needle on water?” You could at least have him change the stock market or something.

25:04

Then this other lady from New York who was in the Rosicrucians – the purpose of the Rosicrucian Order was to find your astral master while still living in your physical body; the Guardian of the Threshold so to speak. So I’m always curious – because these people spend forty years of their life and what are the results? – that they know which horse is coming in? And so I asked her, “What were the results?” She said, “Well, one day, I wasn’t really sure that I was awake, but he appeared at the foot of the bed and I asked him the two questions.” And I asked her, “What did he say?” She said, “He just shook his head, ‘No,’ and left.” And that was your one shot and you’re done, and he never came back again. So I think that from all the evidence that comes in, it doesn’t justify a lifetime of research. It might justify a lifetime of socializing with the people, if you like to do that. But whole the point in this is whether a person has the intuition to pick it up. If not, then you’ll offend him when you talk about it. So you just have to let them run their course.

26:19
=== Becoming ===

Q. I think maybe what you’re saying is that if you are, you are, and if you will be, then you will be, and there’s nothing you can do about it.

R. No, no. What you desire, you may be also.

Q. And you can become?

R. Sure, sure. We have no proof that we’re agents of free will. But unless we operate that way then there’s no other course but suicide. There’s no point in just continuing. In other words, if you don’t have any choice in your efforts, you couldn’t avoid suicide; that would be the next step. So anybody who isn’t committing suicide believes that he can do something. He may be fatalistic, but he believes that somewhere there’s a hope. As I said, we’re all robots, but everybody’s reaching behind themselves for the key; hoping to find the key that will make the mechanism deviate from its original course. There’s a hope of change, and this hope of change creates change; the desire to know will bring you closer to knowledge. The desire to experience pleasure will bring you closer to pleasure.

27:40

Now whether all the people who succeed were basically the people who desire – that it’s just a coincidence, that people were doomed to succeed and doomed to desire success – that could be. Or it could be that certain people who would not have succeeded otherwise developed a dynamic hunger, and the hunger caused them to act. Either one. But we can only operate with the latter: conviction. We have to operate as though we can do something. And all those people who succeed operate with that same principle. They believed that they could.

28:26
=== Resistance ===

Q. I find that people in general are afraid of metaphysical thoughts and resist if you talk about it.

28:38

R. Well, the things that I talked about tonight and the experiences I had were years ago, and I kept my mouth shut because of that same thing. I had a family to keep, I had three children to raise, I was in the contracting business and working different places, one place in the capacity of a head chemist. And if you even talked about these things you could get in trouble.

29:06

And I don’t know where this comes from, but I think that nature somehow avoids investigation of nature; that’s the feeling I have. I can’t prove it, but I have a feeling that nature would like to avoid the investigation of nature. So the religions that are natural religions just say, “Well, go ahead.” And this is one of the complaints I have had against a lot of the religions all over the world – Christian, Buddhist and all – that there’s was a certain group of people who searched quietly and they built morals around the search laboratory. And a lot of them pretty much kept their lives under control; they stayed away from extremes in sex and alcohol and that sort of thing. But they preached for the populace to reproduce, and to get drunk so that they could confess.

And this was one of my protests; that I do believe that you can and should take whatever information you have to the general public. And I’ve suffered – if you want to call it suffered – I don’t give a damn – because I’m at the point where I can’t suffer too much. But I’ve come to a point of freedom in which I can say what I please and express the things that have happened to me. And if they do somebody some good, well then I feel as though I’m functional. Otherwise there’s no point in me living. I’m not too good at passing on any other skills. But I agree with you a hundred percent.

30:46

Q. Inaudible.

R. There is a tremendous lot, yeah. Like Dan said, this group that they have here in Pittsburgh basically doesn’t advocate addiction to any religion or group. And because of that they came under criticism for not being true Zen or something like that. True Zen means being true fanatics, to some sandal-cracking groups of people.

[ tape ends 31:22 ]

[ End ]

== Footnotes ==

Url: http://direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1977-11-Method-of-Going-Inside For access, send email to editors@direct-mind.org

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Yoga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Aquinas

Psychology of the Observer, pg. 20-21 and 26.

The second form of reaction.

Rose uses the word “anterior” (literally, front) to describe an inner or more real perspective, but in conjunction with words like “getting behind the mind” this seems contradictory; however, “anterior” also has the meaning of “preceding”. Also see footnote #1.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gestalt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_therapy

In 1942 Rose worked at Julien P. Friez, a manufacturer of meteorological instruments in Baltimore.

The Crack in the Cosmic Egg (1973). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Chilton_Pearce

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1962). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuhn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Ornstein

Robert E. Ornstein, Psychology of Consciousness. Rose makes the same reference in Psychology of the Observer, p. 9. In this tape recording Rose say’s “Epstein”, corrected here. General article at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_periodic_table and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_chemical_elements_discoveries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston

April 6, 1978 Meeting in Pittsburgh: “Yes sir, this stuff doesn’t happen by accident, it comes from Washington. All these big moves come from Washington.”

Imagery congruent with the term “anterior observer”. See footnote #6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_the_Cross

Early start and end of puberty results in fewer growing years, while exposure of girls to certain males produces early onset of puberty. New York Times, Mar. 30, 2012, “Puberty Before Age 10: A New ‘Normal’?” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/magazine/puberty-before-age-10-a-new-normal.html

Also see Psychology of the Observer, pg. 22-23, “Six different forms of perceiving”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meher_Baba

See 1976-0304-Meeting-Pittsburgh for a lengthy discussion on Meher Baba.

Timothy Leary, Ken Kesey.

Rose details his LSD experience in a letter to Robert Martin, February 18, 1969. See pages 104-105 of Peace to the Wanderer, pdf in this directory: http://selfdefinition.org/rose/

By being celibate.

Rose advocated celibacy for young people but believed that extended periods of celibacy for older men could cause prostate trouble.

1 Corinthians 7:9. “But if they cannot contain let them marry, for it is better to marry than to burn.”

See Albigen Papers, chapter 7, “Discernment”.

Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson, vol. 1, ch. 1, pg. 27 in the pdf:. “From the moment of its arising, [this] became as it were the chief directing lever of my entire whole.” http://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff/

Richard Rose: “Yoga: Hatha, Shabd, and Raja”. http://www.searchwithin.org/download/yoga.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpal_Singh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckankar

Spiritual nectar trickling down from the chakras.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_of_the_Threshold

== End ==

x

1977-11-Method-of-Going-Inside-Pittsburgh

2026-04-27T18:12:31Z

Dmadmin: two additional files were discovered, 33 minutes total: dm4 and dm5. TAT Forum 2026

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== Data Template ==



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|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s = 3 mp3 files : 31:05 ; 31:00 ; 31:25. UPDATE: two additional files were discovered, 33 minutes total: dm4 and dm5.
|total-time = 93 minutes. Update, add 33, total 126 minutes
|transcription-status = SH distributed 4/13/2012. UPDATE: Have Auto-AI of dm4 and dm5 mentioned above, to be added. Art will be publishing this talk in the TAT forum beginning about May 2026 in installments.
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf = https://selfdefinition.org/rose/Richard-Rose-1977-11-Method-of-Going-Inside.pdf
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks = This is NOT the commercial recording “Going Within”.
|audio-quality = Poor - needs headset
|who-is-present = "Dan" gave the introduction - referred to by Rose, but intro is not on tape.
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

== Notes ==
Appears to be two microphones, one for Rose and one for some questions (not all) – perhaps a mixer was used for this tape.

Says “here in Pittsburgh” on side 3 at 31:02.

See talk page for comments re LSD trip.

After spot-checking some keywords, I can’t find any of this included in the book Psychology of the Observer.

== File 1 ==
Time = 31:05 minutes

00:00

I’m going to give you some information tonight on a method of going inside. Previously I’ve tried to give some rather knowledge-laden lectures. I gave one here a couple years ago on the transmission of energy and it went over like a lead balloon – because the terminology was evidently vague, and if you haven’t read along these lines, a lot of this stuff is alien to you.

01:10

The whole purpose behind any esoteric or nonconventional spiritual search is the finding of the final answer; you could use such terms as ultimate answer, or absolute truth. In the pursuit of this, if you follow the histories of people who pursued it, we find that it isn’t a systematic intellectual, logical, or even philosophic presentation. We don’t find the truth by proving it in a court of logic. After digging for maybe ten or twenty years you discover that you find the truth, or you’re liable to approach it, by becoming a different vehicle. Not by attacking something and trying to digest it, but by changing your nature, so that you’ll be able to assimilate something of an absolute nature. Because you are finite and relative, and a finite, relative creature may not be able to assimilate an absolute truth.

02:38

Regardless, this is where all of the hatha yoga movements end up: in raja yoga. All of the manipulatory religions wind up in what they call an esoteric core – the “less finite”. Dan mentioned that I studied to be a priest at one time, and in the seminary they talked about the Thomistic theology in which the statement is made that the finite mind will never perceive the infinite – and this is very true. Now this was written at that time to discourage people from looking for the truth, saying you’ve got to believe the hierarchy, because there’s no place to go; you have a finite mind and you’re not going to get there. But the thing they overlooked was that the finite mind can become different; the finite mind can become less finite.

03:40

We’re not going to get into the system of that tonight, but I’m going to try to try to take you through a simple process of going within. And if you can remember this it will be of value to you, because this is the crux of all of this path, after you reach the decision that you have to change your nature, that you have to become. It’s based, first of all, upon five properties of the human mind. Now I completely avoid and bypass what is known as current psychology, the psychology that has developed down through the years to where it is today, and certain definitions they have of the mind.

At one time I believed that there were only three qualities of the human mind: perception, retention and reaction. If you look at it for a minute you’ll see why I said that; basically, you can get all of the things that happen to a human being down into those three categories: you perceive, you retain as memory, and you react. But these are not necessarily properties – they are things that happen to us, without us controlling them. When you look at it a little deeper you see that there’s something else that can be added; they’re still limited to these three categories, but there’s a variation in two of them. So that we have two types of perception: sensory perception and mental perception. It’s still perception but one of them has to come through the senses while the other can come directly. The mind itself can see. And after you meditate or think on these long enough, you’ll encounter this thing called visualization. Now visualization is one method of mental perception, and there are others. The mind can be trained to see directly, such as in ESP, astral projection, these things. The mind can see by itself. It’s still perception, and it still records on the mundane memory.

06:06

And there’s another quality we add to these three and that is projection; as things come into the human organism, things also can be sent out. Now projection would seem to be the only thing that the human being does. He can’t stop perceiving; he can’t prohibit or stop remembering – the action called memory is going to happen whether he wants it to or not. And he can’t stop reacting, although perhaps he can desire to react a certain way, which is called morality, a moral reaction. And of course there’s some question as to whether you can even control the moral type of reaction. But this projection would seem to be something that we can control; that it’s the first time that we do something. We’ll see if it’s possible to actually control that – I don’t know whether it is. But as far as everyone generally thinks, we can.

07:16
=== Viewer and the view ===

Now this whole theme hinges on a very simple point: that the view is not the viewer. In a search for the self we are looking for the viewer; we are looking for him who sees. We’re looking for the self, in other words. There is a self. But strangely enough, the smartest people, meaning intellectually smart – men of degree and reputation, doctors even, psychologists – very seldom really define “I” or “me” or “self“ properly. This is a massive assumption that is crossed over, to the extent that when you start defining this thing you’re going to get into endless discussion and proof. But it’s just a very simple and logical deduction that if you’re looking for yourself, it’s not the environment. Now – where does environment end and “me” begin? Where is the “me” that is the essence-me?

08:41

Let’s take a simple situation: a person lying in bed smoking cigarettes. Let’s just first present it in a picture: Your toes are visible, and possibly by smoking you’re even aware of your lungs. But we realize that the toes are not us, basically because you can amputate them and keep on living. And by the same token, if you smoke too many cigarettes they might even take out a lung. You might take out a good bit of your body and still live.

09:31

So you’re going to have to identify the rest of the body likewise as not being us, not being the central “we”. And when you do this you start to embark upon what I call a retreat – a retreat from the common definition that is assumed by most people: that “us” is the body; that “us” is that which we would like to think we are; or that “us” may be body and mind or body-mind. Modern psychology seems to hint that there’s no such thing as a mind outside of a body-mind, a reaction mechanism. Incidentally, this little five-part formula for the human mind’s attributes doesn’t argue with modern psychology in this respect – except possibly for the idea of projection – that the body can be blamed for a tremendous lot of this: The body is the one that perceives through the senses, the body is the brain, the brain is somatic, the DNA molecule is somatic. And the reaction is automatic – it’s like an electrical current triggering something and causing a reaction. But I think after you dig awhile you become aware that the somatic mind is identifiable and it is not us.

So when you start looking, you start by looking at your actions – and you generally don’t see your actions until you get a reflection from someone else, or you run afoul of society and run into criticism, or you get sick. So let’s say in the process of smoking a cigarette the person develops a cough, and he gets the fear that maybe he’ll be going into cancer. And this is when he realizes that the one who decided to smoke the cigarette is not him, because he argues with him – and by this he finds himself looking inside. We’re going into a meditative process now – this is what we’re trying to do tonight – take a person into a phase of simple meditation: what you would think about if you were lying in bed smoking a cigarette. This might be what would enter your mind. And this will lead you back to just simply analyzing your actions, to see which of those actions are you and which aren’t you.

12:39

And we find that we’re a composition – our so-called personality. We may have abandoned the idea that we’re the body by looking at our toes and our fingernails, and saying that this evidently isn’t us – because in seven years the entire body will be changed, it will be a different us. So where is the unchanging us? Where is this thing that is really us forever? Or which is the most durable part, if it is not that? But we come to some conclusions: that we eat and we want to eat, we want pleasure, we want power, peace of mind and a few other possible objectives – and that some of these things conflict. They conflict so strongly that we decide at some given time that they are not us.

13:41

Now take the case of a fellow who drinks. He once decided that it’s a harmless pastime, it’s just a few beers – and the next thing you know he’s an alcoholic. And eventually he gets put in jail or he gets into a fix – he may lose his property or something like that. But he gets into trauma, and he realizes that this is not him. And then he goes – he doesn’t say, “We’re going down to the doctor,” no. “I’m going down to get rid of this monkey that’s on my back.” He finally realizes that it’s a monkey on his back. Before that he thought it was one of his voices or egos – he was expanding, he was using alcohol to stimulate his business and become rich and powerful and popular and everything else, that it’s a great social lubricant.

14:29

So we find that the personality, the thinking process that we took to be our mind, that we thought was us – we find that the mind itself is playing tricks. Over a long period of time – sometimes ten and twenty years build up before a person realizes that something inside of him has played tricks on him. So we’ve got a dichotomy. There’s a manifest dichotomy, no way around it: how can a person play tricks on themselves? But this is manifestly true. A fellow is put in jail and somebody says to him, “You’re a drunk,” or, “You’ve got a habit.” Or he’s in jail because of some social habit, or he rapes somebody or he steals. All of these are the result of appetites. And these appetites are the result of what I call voice-drives. And these accumulate – they don’t necessarily start spontaneously in a few seconds.

13:35

So the person goes along in a certain way and suddenly has to face himself. And it doesn’t have to be a really violent or traumatic thing that brings about this revelation; there are lots of little things – just the fact that you don’t get along with people. You build up a certain phase in your personality that you believe is you, and you go along and you prosper with it. And then one day it falls apart. Your personality gets you fired from your job, or your girlfriend or boyfriend drops you and says, “I can’t stand you anymore; you’re too hard to get along with.” And then we see that there’s some part of us that we don’t like. And all of us will admit this dichotomy, that there’s no such thing as a monistic mentality, a monistic mind. We admit the dichotomy now.

16:27

=== Umpire ===

I maintain that this is our first view of the mind. And a tremendous lot of people assume that this is the only mind there is. But I call this mind the umpire. It’s part of the program, the computer. This is a physical mechanism, and the physical mechanism is set here for a certain purpose. It’s programmed to produce its own continuation; it’s programmed to survive. So that these different impulses, which conflict with each other to a certain extent, are still parts of the person that are thrown into the computer when the person is born. They’re implanted.

17:33

So then, why is a person born? Manifestly, if you take the end result of what happens in what people do with their lives – we’re manifestly born to reproduce. So we have a sexual urge backed up by a survival urge – everything has a survival urge – and here are two urges working together, reinforcing each other. And then add the pleasure urge. All of these things seem to harmonize together to make a powerful drive toward reproduction.

18:12

Now, say the person has the desire for reproduction but maybe economically is not too keen – has trouble getting a job or something of that sort, or maybe has too much of a reproductive urge – lord knows what causes it – but we hear of a lot of people getting into trouble because of their reproductive urges. And the fellow gets rebuffed – whether he gets rebuffed by his mate or his would-be mate, or whether he gets thrown in jail for rape or whatever the score is. But it’s possible that one of these urges that we identify ourself with very strongly can be so obnoxious that we finally will not identify it any longer as being us. It is something that afflicts us. So then an interior sense, an interior voice says, “Hey, that is not you and you’d better do something about it, if you want to live.”

19:12

And that’s what happens. Something is watching the man raping and going to jail, or getting rejected or losing his job – and this is the viewer. This is the viewer, the rapist is the view. The umpire becomes the view. We are watching. That which watches is the essence, and that which is rejected by that anterior mind is not us. If it were us, well then we’d be suicidal; we would be allowing one of these voices to destroy us. (Well, we generally do anyhow. We generally wind up destroyed by the various voices. Ambition or sex or booze or something gets us, because we can’t hold a balance with all the different appetites that assail us.) So there is in the computer, built in, an umpire, which is not us. We can watch it working, and if you can watch something that’s working, whatever is working is the view.

20:32
=== Process observer ===
So what is watching the umpire? I call it the “process observer”. These are simple terms; rather than use complex psychological terms, or try to keep abreast of psychological terms that would be similar, I prefer to pick something very simple. Now we’re going through a meditative process in what I consider an orderly, common-sense way.

There’s another analogy that I’ve used at times called the camera analogy, in which I liken man to be a ray of light that comes out of a camera towards a screen. And the screen is the void. These are more or less Zen-ish terms, in which the world is looked upon as an illusion – which is a hypothesis because that’s not known until you prove it’s an illusion. But regardless, there is a way. In our meditation, if we feel that we are nothing but a ray of God or something of that sort, there’s only one way to approach that. And that’s not to theorize in dictionary-terminology such as theology might employ, but to actually get into that ray and go back through the camera. In other words, go to the source, instead of verbalizing.

21:53

But what we’re doing here is a much simpler way, because you’re watching your own actions. You watch your observation of the umpire, of this decision-making process, and you find out that you’re aware; you become aware that you are watching it. You’re watching processes, you’re watching the manipulations of the mind which are not us. And this is why in Zen occasionally you’ll hear this term “kill the mind”. This is the mind they talk about killing. A lot of people think that when they say “kill the mind” it means to overdose on drugs – that this is the path to enlightenment, to kill your head or something. No – this is the trouble with picking a word out of a text, from an old philosophy that has been translated for four or five hundred years, and trying to explain it or trying to use it fundamentalistically for your own use. When they say “kill the mind” they mean to kill the mundane mind – not to kill it necessarily, but this is a sharp word to emphasize that something drastic has to be done. But you have to get beyond the umpire. You have to get beyond this need to continually ride herd over these appetites and the counterchecks to the appetites and all this sort of thing.

23:20

Before we got to the process observer it was very simple observation: We see a bottle of whiskey, we see a thirst, we have a sensory understanding that these two things can cause trouble or pleasure, or both. But when you get into the process observer your mental observations become gestaltic. Now when I use the word gestalt I’m talking about pattern thinking, not in the Fritz Perls idea of gestalts. The original idea of gestalts was that we think in patterns. Sometimes a single word may symbolize an entire philosophic approach. A few seconds of thinking along a certain line may embody a whole philosophy – this is what I mean by gestaltic thinking. The process observer is a gestaltic operator. And it starts watching. This is the real meditation that sets in, the real raja yoga or whatever you want to call it, whereby a person watches his mind go through certain loops and shenanigans, gymnastics and so on.

24:39

And then somewhere along the line he becomes aware of the process observer itself. Because we’re watching this thing now: something is watching the observer watching the umpire. Now what are we getting to? We’re getting to where we might think that there’s no point from which you can’t watch something else. So it looks like the real self is going to escape you; it’s just going to go further and further back – every time you look it’s going to be behind you, or behind that operation. But this isn’t true; it’s simply a matter of purification – a purification of the concept of self.

25:21

So that when you come down to the final self it will not be by logically finding a kernel inside of a kernel inside of a kernel. It will be a cracking of the final kernel. And when this occurs, then all of these things are – not illusory; in their own dimension they are real and necessary – but they are not the real self. They are all relative and describable. The final realization of course isn’t necessarily describable, because of the nature of what happens, and by what has been demonstrated or talked about by people who made the breakthrough.

26:14

To give you some hints on the type of mental processes you have to take into account in order to get behind this process observer (and you really have to get behind it): What happens in the observer who watches the process observer, is that this person just watches. This is awareness. This self watches, and that’s all. And when you get to the point where there’s only watching, and no qualification, you’re getting pretty close. Now how does this happen? We’re getting close to an absolute watcher. We’re not getting something that defines things as good or bad, white or black, high or low, in or out. And the reason this type of observation is necessary is because of the field that we’re studying.

27:19
=== Observation process ===

And I came to the conclusion that our whole observation process is erratic, and let me see if I can take you through it. Our scientific world is based upon matter; and this materialistic or matter-philosophy is based upon measurement – measurement of matter with matter. In other words, if we want to measure a foot, which we divide into twelve inches, we use a thing called a ruler, and somebody has to make the ruler. Along with this, we find out that there are limitations in our science itself – and this has been noted by others besides myself: Chilton-Pearce was one, and Thomas Kuhn. In Ornstein’s book , he talks about the duality of the mind; he splits the mind in half, one hemisphere of the brain being a subjective dream-type side, which he calls the “dancer”, and the other being the logical side. In this book he brings out that we don’t have much of a language in science. We have what we call agreement; that basically, everything is tentative. We have a tentative agreement, even in such very strict disciplines as mathematics and chemistry.

29:24

We find in mathematics that there’s a certain philosophy given that more or less throws all mathematics in jeopardy. I have cited the case that when I was majoring in chemistry forty years ago we had ninety-two elements – and we had the fiat along with it that there would be no more: Man had dissolved the universe in a test tube and there would only be ninety-two elements. Our whole universe was composed of ninety-two parts, and now all we had to do was go to work on those ninety-two and find out the real nature of the universe. Since then of course in our atomic chart we’ve got over one hundred elements. The agreement has changed. The agreement changed on oxygen from phlogiston; the scientists who were venerated two hundred years ago believed in a substance called phlogiston, and it evolved into oxygen.

30:28

And we’re inclined when we go into a classroom to take anything as law that’s put into a scientific textbook. Because the average student doesn’t have time to disprove it, although he may have intuition enough to sense that everything is not as proven as the author of the book would like to have him think. Now, what I’m getting at – this is a very important point – is that our understanding of the universe is an agreement, and that is all.

[side 1 ends at 31:05]

== File 2 ==
Time = 31:00 minutes
[no break in tape, because there is overlap side 1 and side 2]
[no paragraph]

We have measured matter with matter.

=== Definitions ===

Now what is the definition of these? And what is the purpose of a definition? A definition is the description of something relative to something that it is not. It’s a comparison of opposites, not a comparison of similarities. We don’t say that bread is bread; we don’t say that a cat is a cat. We say that a cat is not everything that is not a cat. In other words, we use all sorts of terminology that relates to almost the rest of the dictionary, to bring us around to the fact that a cat is just something that is not everything else. Now if you analyze the definition of everything else, this is what it gets down to, that we don’t have any clear-cut definition of things except in relation to each other. We are only relatives; we are only measuring our degree of relation and agreement.

01:09

Now what’s wrong with this? What’s wrong with it is basically that in order to understand matter, I maintain you will have to be removed from matter and define it from an outside category. We can define an apple in terms of a pear, or by genus and specie, but when you take matter itself and start to define it in terms of matter, you can’t do it. And who is going to do it except the psychic? – somebody outside that dimension. So the person possibly from a deep spiritual experience may give you a better definition of the universe, the construction of the universe, by virtue of being the only person able to define it properly, because he’s outside.

01:56
=== The mind ===
Now here you get into a mental world. You start watching the mind, and the mind becomes tangible and objective – as soon as anything is observable it is objective. And we can’t get beyond it by our relative, tangible, objective method of studying the mind. We can do it for awhile – we can isolate, we can retreat from it, we can observe, and watch the process of observing, and write books and books on psychological observations. But we’re stuck, because we’re defining the mind with the mind, which is equally as fallacious as describing matter with matter. So we somehow have to step outside the mind. All of your works of psychology, no matter how many centuries they’re indulged in, will not bring us an understanding of the mind until we get behind it, or get beyond it.

02:59

In other words we are only able to describe it in agreement, and that’s unfortunately where all psychology is today, the same as all your material sciences, only it’s worse. Because the people with a political aim or who wish to be funded for various social services control a lot of it, and it’s a worse situation. I consider psychology as the new religion, the religion that has supplanted the old conventional religions possibly, that were destroyed by their own superstitions. But now we’ve got a new religion and a new set of superstitions that will be more tyrannical, and are more tyrannical. Where one sent you to the stake, the other can send you to the nuthouse, or can execute you or testify before a jury that you’re sane and responsible for your acts – and no human being is responsible for his acts.

03:56

But anyhow, we encounter this introspection in mysticism, we encounter it in psychology; and I maintain that you can find yourself through this self-analysis. When we talk about self-analysis we’re talking about the highest form of psychology. Anybody can compare inkblots, anybody can stick pins, get reflexes and reactions, and map charts on how many people jerk to the left and how many jerk to the right, and form a behavioristic psychology. But how many people know what the mind is? I challenged the psychiatrists – we had a Chautauqua down at the farm and some came to the Chautauqua – and I have challenged every one of them I ever met to give me a definition of thought, give me a definition of mind, outside of a loose agreement. I read one book where they say the mind is a loose collective personality – but then we’ve got to define personality, and it just turns around to be anything you wish it to be. You even say a man thinks or a man wishes – but what’s a thought? what’s a wish? And yet these people can pump you full of counter-drugs, thought-drugs.

But getting back to this – we’re not interested in the machinations too much, except that there are some mechanics running around who can destroy the machinery.

05:15

The thing is that we’re trying to get behind the human mind. And the only hope that you have is for some mechanism by which you can get behind it. Now I’ve outlined something that will take you to a point where your head stops. And up until now what I said may have been very reasonable to you, but the rest is experience. When you reach a certain point in this self-analysis your head will stop and a phenomenon occurs. The phenomenon is the knowledge of nothing.

05:56

pause

06:08

When you start looking at the mind with the mind intently you reach an intense frustration. When you start watching all of your actions clear from the sensory impulses and perceptions up to the very complex process analyses, you become more and more despairing or frustrated – finally to a point when it seems like you’re just inclined to say it’s hopeless. I went through that myself, where I just thought, “I can’t get beyond this; this whole thing’s hopeless.” But some urge that stimulates you, or prompts you, some bullheadedness or some tenacity in you to keep on plugging away at this, may bring you to a point of what I call an explosion. And this is when it’s no longer the mind, but the awareness that is in the front. The simple awareness is out front.

07:11

Now when this experience passes, of course, you will try to verbalize. You go back to the relative dimension of speech and you’ll try to verbalize what you’ve experienced, and it’s very difficult. And the result is that when you read books, from accounts, unless you’ve had the experience yourself you’ll consider most of them a bunch of liars or people who were hysterical, or who were seeing from quite a few different viewpoints. The truth of the matter is that this is just the result of the difficulty of words, a person trying to verbalize an absolute experience or an absolute type of experience. And each one will verbalize it with the personality he had before and with the language and vocabulary that he had before, and perhaps the philosophy he had before. So that a John of the Cross will have a Christian experience, and a Chinese philosopher may have a Buddhistic experience, or tie it to Buddhism. It doesn’t matter. The thing is that it’s internal. But his words may be different when he describes it.

08:24
=== More about the umpire ===
There’s another thing you’ll see, let’s say as your perspective broadens. As soon as you start watching the umpire you’ll become a trifle indignant. And I think that you might be able to measure religions or philosophic movements by how far they went in their self-analyses. Some religions reach a point in which they do nothing but denounce the umpire, or denounce the inabilities of the umpire. And they call this the devil; the umpire seems to be the devil. The umpire neglects to properly take care of the person. So the word evil or devil is chosen to lay the blame and start a battle. Because it’s evident that people wanting to get off the hook want to do some type of battle, and we have to have an adversary to do battle, so we create one.

09:42

After you watch this umpire for awhile and realize that it’s just a programming that nature put in you to keep you alive long enough to reproduce – then it’s no longer a devil. And what I mean is that this umpire is basically here exactly for that purpose. For instance a person getting into sex too young – there’s an instinct in mankind against that, at least in this country up until the last twenty or thirty years. We’ve lost all our survival instincts I think on that line. I think the tendency now would be to educate children on sex starting in the first grade, so that by the time they’re twelve they’ll be so completely debauched they won’t have any drive left to go out and rape anybody or get in trouble. But the whole purpose is simple: if you have a farm you don’t let your heifers in with the bull. It’s not a question of elitism or fear or prudishness. If you want to raise healthy cows you keep the heifers away from the bull until they’re two years old. And if you want to raise human heifers that are healthy and productive, you keep them away from the bull until they’re fifteen or eighteen years of age, or you’ll have runts. It takes a certain amount of time to produce a healthy creature. And you can’t say, “Well, they did it at fifteen, let’s try it fourteen. They did it a fourteen, let’s try thirteen. It didn’t seem to hurt at thirteen, let’s go back to twelve.”

11:36

So what it basically amounts to is that there are certain fears and certain antagonisms in human beings. Now some of these are for each other: jealousy and that sort of thing. But legislation is put down to preserve the body so that it can properly reproduce, and not only reproduce but to support the child. So that if a guy’s bombed out of his head to a point where he can’t keep a job, he can’t support a child – he’s an enemy of nature. Now this is basic, somatic, natural psychology. You’re no blasted good if you can’t support your children. You shouldn’t reproduce if you can’t support your children. There’s not an indefinite entity called the establishment or the country or the government that should support all the children that all the dishrags would like to produce.

12:30

So this is built in by whatever you want to call it: God or the engineer, or the automatic blueprint that was put into the human being – as in all the animals; we’re just a little bit more egotistical form of flesh. But the blueprint is in there. This voice, the umpire, is there to say, “Hey, don’t eat too much, you’ll blow your gut and you’ll not reproduce tomorrow,” – or you’ll get so fat that you won’t be able to, or you’ll get some disease, your heart will get bad and you’ll be inclined to have a heart attack and you won’t be able to raise your kids.

13:11

And the same thing goes for the power complex, or any of them. Any of them can kill us. But nevertheless, these egos, this survival ego, these vanities are put in us. Because if we weren’t vain we wouldn’t pursue. The male has to have this tremendous rooster complex: that he is in demand, that all he has to do is go out and make a few flourishes with his feathers and things will happen, and that this is his main purpose on earth. The computer somehow puts him in check, and then at some time or another it also turns him loose. Now – I say the umpire us not us and it’s not even a good protector. And once your purpose is served, you’re expendable; somehow the computer or the umpire seems to have done its job, it disappears, and somebody else replaces you – with an equal amount of vanity that you had when you were playing the rooster.

14:15

And I think that all of this is in order. There’s nothing wrong with it; this is just nature defending itself; nature having blueprints – which all of the erudite sociologists and psychologists are going to change – they’re going to reprogram it. They’re going to reprogram us so that we will survive; we’ll get vaccinated against the detrimental qualities of perversion, dissipations, narcotism and alcoholism and God knows what.

So this is just basic survival. If you’re just interested in basic survival, then you get as far as the umpire. You may even form a religion, you may even call your actions sins, in order to help reinforce yourself against an early death. This is basically what religion is – it’s somatic, that type of religion. Now there are religions that go beyond that, but they have so little popular appeal that the meetings are held in caves and God knows where.

[break in tape – apparently at the 45 min break ]

15:38
=== Perceptions, projections, visions ===
There’s one other point in the basis of perception. As I said before, there’s more than one type: there’s sensory perception and mental perception And it’s necessary to understand this. Because we see a lot of stuff and we like to think “we” see it, but we don’t define who is “we”. We don’t define what’s going on when we’re seeing.

16:14

For instance, suppose you see a green apple – this is visual perception – and you throw the apple out the window. And then we can visualize the apple sitting right here on the table. We can still see that apple in our mind’s eye, sitting right here. We can even close our eyes; we don’t have to see it sitting there, we can see it in our minds. And we can see almost anything that way. Now of course they call this memory. But – supposing we have this apple in our mind’s eye and we decide that we’re going to have little red diamonds a half inch apart all the way around the outside perimeter. We visualize an apple with little red diamonds. Incidentally, there are a lot of cults – and I identify them as cults – that do nothing but visualize. I was listening to this tape the other day and somebody is saying, “See o-r-a-n-g-e. Now see blue.” And so on. And he’s taking people through this course, a hundred and fifty bucks for a weekend, for seeing different colors, being able to visualize them.

17:20

But regardless, you can. You can see an apple with swastikas on it if you wish. Now what is this? This is actually a mental picture. It is a mental picture that is seen that has never been real; there has never been an apple that grew on a tree that had diamonds or swastikas on it. So this is what I call visualization. This is the ability of the mind to create. And what it does, it projects someplace. As we say, we see it in our head, it’s projected there. A picture is seen. Anything that is seen is substantial. Whenever anything is recorded – like if five people see a mirage – then that mirage is substantial. That’s the same evidence that sends a man to the electric chair – five people, two people perhaps, can send him to the electric chair. If two people see a mirage, that’s legal evidence. It’s scientific evidence, it’s testimony, it exists. Erratic? – sure, it may be erratic; because when they move up to the scene where the mirage seems to be it’s not there.

18:34

But regardless, we have that ability to project, to create. And unless we understand our ability to project and create, we cannot start to look inside of our own head, because every step of the way we’re visualizing and projecting. How many people have been in the process of projecting what love is? – the color of the horse the man had to ride in on, what the horse looked like, what the guy looked like, the qualities that he had inside of him. Then projecting phony qualities of the person who is meeting the man on the horse. We’ve built up a whole phony system of the princess with no faults, nothing but every superlative, meeting the man on the horse, who has nothing but superlatives, and waiting for ten, fifteen, twenty years for this visualization to come true – angrily hating the world, because other people refuse to believe that dream.

19:46

So unless a person sees this early in life we go on. Sometimes we don’t know it; sometimes we think, “Oh, yes, I know what you’re talking about. I don’t get into that stuff.” No – you’re into something else, some other form of visualization. But this form of internal looking is a projection of this process-observer mind. It’s a mental projection. I’ll give you some examples of these different things now.

20:29
=== Examples ===

Sensory perceptions: Objects are apprehended. Now when I say apprehended it means the things that you see or things you hear, touch, smell, etc., the five or six senses.

Memory perception: This is remembering and also visualization. But when you remember anything – for instance if I say to you that you would remember that log cabin you were born in, and it flashes back into your head: a farm back on a hillside with a certain slope, the logs sticking out of the corners of the log cabin, etc. – an exact picture, everything coming back to your head. Now this is a vision. This is not a projection. This is a perception. Whenever the memory is stimulated it produces a vision – even if it’s only a split second, if you’re running through things very rapidly ...

[ break in tape ]

21:34

... and you can see that, you can recall that. Call it back and it will appear.

Reaction visions: There are visions that we can only describe as being reactions; we don’t know their nature, we just react and we see them. We react to a certain situation, place, time, etc. – these are ghosts, visitations, mind projections. Sometimes these are things that we project out of the mind and seemingly see with the physical eye. But we project them first.

Holograms: A hologram is a reaction but we just don’t react properly with a hologram.

Hallucinations: Again, we don’t react properly; we see something that’s not there because it twists somewhere inside our seeing mechanism. In other words, our sensory-perception mechanism is not infallible. And this is another reason why we should question our own judgment in a lot of things.

22:34

Mental perceptions: This is a person perceiving with their awareness; true revelations about an unknown environment acting upon the mind, or the mind acting upon the mind.

22:54

Then we have deliberate projections. Is it possible to deliberately project? This is the fifth quality of the mind. We have ESP – that seemingly people do sit down and project. Also astral projection; and there’s another thing called zapping – this has been pretty well substantiated as being a power of the mind.

23:17

Okay, I don’t know whether I got the point across. If not, I hope that some of your questions will bring this across to you.

=== Man’s purpose ===

Q. In what you’re describing about nature, what is the purpose of getting this knowledge? To prepare you for the transcendental? [rest is inaudible]

24:14

R. I wouldn’t say that. I’d just say you start to see your purpose. And I don’t think that needs to be the only purpose, and I’m not inferring it’s a negative pursuit. I’m just saying that once you get wise to it, you may not have to suffer, you may not have to drown as quickly. In other words, you’re going to die. We’re talking about death. You’re dying right now; everyone here is dying, we’re approaching a certain end. Now – you can jump out the window or you can do it slowly. Consequently, when you realize what you’re programmed for, then naturally the unspoken thing is – what can you do to prolong it, while you’re taking time to learn? You don’t know, and a erson has to prepare themselves in order to find out. What I’m trying to avoid for you is this idea of blasting yourself into knowledge. And instead trying to take a methodical, possibly laborious course of finding your definition, as opposed to extreme measures. It’s never been done with extreme measures.

25:32

And the other inclination we have, and I can’t argue with it, because every one of us has it: everyone moves as they’re supposed to move. Each person has a certain capacity, and no rationalization will identify their capacity, and you don’t argue with it. I hear people saying, “What good is that? – let’s eat, drink and be merry, because everybody’s kidding themselves who thinks there’s another objective in life.” And the proper thing to do, outside of saying, “Well, what is happiness?” or, “Who is being happy?” is to let the person eat, drink and be merry. Because if he doesn’t have the intuition or instinct or whatever is necessary, or hasn’t inherited the proper computer to do the work, he’s not going to go anyhow. He’s going to do what he was destined or programmed for. But the whole idea is trying to get a breath of relief from the programming, the treadmill.

26:46
=== Zapping ===
Q. What is the zapping you referred to?

R. Well, zapping is an instantaneous hypnosis. Zapping is a technique that came out of India. Gurdjieff could zap. The first instance I ran into with zapping – there were certain yogis who came into this country forty of fifty years ago. One of them was Meher Baba, , and he could look at you and you would collapse; he would just stare at you. Gurdjieff could look at you and you’d collapse. Because he established a mind-to-mind contact and then he pulled the strength out of you. There has been enough of this that has happened, and it’s predictable. They can predict they can do it and it can be done. And you can do it if you’re somewhat astute in hypnosis; you can knock people off their feet.

27:51
=== LSD trip ===
Q. [mostly inaudible – John Lily’s immersion tank ]

28:04

R: [inaudible – cracks some jokes] I’ve never been in one. I don’t know what it would do for you. It might be worth trying. I just don’t like the machinery there. It might be good. I’ll tell you something else, though: I don’t believe that you can take just anybody and put them there. It’s like LSD. I remember talking back four or five or six years ago with some people who had LSD and psilocybin and some other drugs. And I said, “What does this do for you?” One girl was talking about it, and she was pretty much of an authority on it – she had ruined both her kidneys with it. I don’t know whether the LSD did it or the needles or what, but her kidneys were shot, and she was pretty much of a philosopher in her last days.

29:19

But she said to me, “You get out of LSD what you put into it.” And I find that this is very true. Certain people take the same LSD – and one has nightmares, pursued by monsters and bad trips or something, while another person will take the identical LSD and have almost a spiritual experience. And I think the same thing goes for any of these experiments. You can’t get blood out of a turnip. If a person has certain basic innate qualities and they go into spiritual research, they either have to change their state of being – this is one of the secrets of it – before they go into it, or they’ll get what they’re going in for. And I think this is the way with a lot of stuff. The so-called workshops that occurred on the west coast – I suspected the motives of the people in it. I don’t think they were clear enough in their head to get the proper results. And I don’t think there’s too much difference between a man going into a tank like that or a yogi going out on a mountain where there is no one else, where he’s alone with the universe and that sort of thing. But if a person just goes out on a mountain with a hatful of vices and hangups and weakness, he’s not going to get anything ...

[ break in tape ]
[ side 2 ends 31:00 ]

== File 3 ==

Time = 31:25

... [whether that’s] for two lifetimes or ten lifetimes. He has to put something out there. I took LSD once – I was trying to see whether it would break open an experiential field that I had been in before. And I had a beautiful, a very beautiful experience. I died, incidentally. It started off by dying – I went through a death experience, and then I had a very beautiful experience. And I compare this with hundreds of young people that I talk to, and they couldn’t understand: an old bastard like me should have had a rough trip. I had a nice trip. But I think it was because of the way I approached it. I had prepared myself for it too. You can prepare yourself for these things.

00:55

I’m not trying to change a trend today, I’m only trying to sort some people out who may pick up an intuition from what I’m saying, that you can’t indulge in these many voices that the umpire would reject and come up with any good results. There has to be a certain change of being before you go into a search for spiritual experience. In other words, there’s a trend to have experience; there are a lot of people who want experience. And I’ve run into quite a few of them; they’d come down to my place and want to stay there, and I’d find out that they were into – I mean a whole lot of vices – and they thought that they could continue these things, all of these let’s say open spigots on the computer. The computer has to be shut. You have to put the material in the computer and then you shut off the input and the output, if you want a decision out of the computer. You can’t have a bunch of monkeys in there all the time jumping around. You’ll have an experience and what will your experience be? Monkeys. That’s all.

02:16
=== Words ===
Q. [Mostly inaudible question on meaning.]

02:29

R. Here’s the whole thing about words: words have whatever meaning you give them. That’s why I talk about the language of agreement. The unfortunate thing is that we don’t always agree on words or understand what another person means. For instance we use this word exceptional – you think that an exceptional person is a genius, but you pick up a dictionary and no, it’s a resident in a nuthouse. Another example is the words objective and subjective: as soon as a subjective matter is under scrutiny it becomes objective. This may be along the lines you’re talking about, semantics or meaning, and the meaning is very vague. The words don’t mean a whole lot, no matter who it is who’s talking. Sometimes the most you can do, as I said, is pick up something by intuition. That’s the key. Because words will confuse you.

03:35

Q. What was it you meant by “somatic”?

R. Somatic means the body

Q. You were talking about somatic religion.

03:54

R. I believe that a lot of our religion is somatic, and a lot of this is rejected. That we can only think in terms of ecstasy or hell. Especially the Christian religions. The tremendous love relationship between a sadistic God and a whole herd of masochistic people, who just love to go to hell.

04:28
=== Umpire and egos ===
Q. Once you realize that the umpire is programming, do you gain control over that and maybe stop its vices, or do you just watch its vices go on forever?

04:52

R. We know in almost all cases where we undertake therapy, that the change occurs with the recognition of the error. There’s no sense in trying to change the mechanism. Like with this idea of the survival urge: the survival urge is contributory to death but it also contributes to long life. If you try to mess with it you may get into prostate cancer. But you recognize what’s going on: where previously you thought that you were reproducing, that you were the rooster of the world, now you see that all of it doesn’t matter; it’s going to happen whether you’re there or not.

05:49

And it isn’t a question of denouncing, or labeling stuff as evil, or something of that sort – that’s nonsense. I don’t intend to apply that. I’m just saying that you become detached. And most people when they get older – I’m not saying all; I’ve seen people ninety years of age who couldn’t see, they were blind, they were still trying to feel, and they never got detached – but most people after awhile look upon all of this scheme as nonsense. But by then it’s too late. What I’m trying to do is to age some young people. And that’s basically why they get their detachment, if it’s done.

06:39

I was doing a little bit of reading or digging, trying to find out where this thing of guilt came from. And I noticed the predominance of guilt in the Christian religion. Then I started looking through the religions of India and Asia and Zen and all this sort of thing. And where is the guilt in Zen? You don’t find it. You find that they pretty much ignore it. But there’s a thread that runs through all the Hindu religions, and it’s generally spoken in let’s say little aphorisms. I ran into this when I first started studying yoga, years ago; I was a kid about twenty-three years old. And there was this little aphorism – I can’t remember exactly, but it says basically that all pain is caused by desire. Now where the Christian religion builds up a tremendous monster, “Oh, don’t you do this, because you’ll get so many years in the hot seat,” the eastern religions recognize the fact that man burns himself. Like St. Paul said, “If you don’t marry, you’ll burn.” That man can burn himself by his desires. Now – this means that for anything you desire there are voices. These are egos. And any ego if you don’t develop some sort of detachment from it can burn you. It can cause you pain, ultimately. It can obsess you. It can develop a monkey.

08:20

Q. When you start the spiritual search you discover your selfishness and your egos and your desires. And then you move through that, you keep going and you lose your original reasons for searching. So then what keeps you going?

08:46

R. I’ll tell you what happened to me. Different people have different motivations. My original motivation for getting on a spiritual search was selfish. Looking at it from this viewpoint, I consider it very selfish. I had the conceit, number one, that I could master psychology, magic, kabala, astrology, all of these – which I look upon now as very weird pastimes – I would master all these things and become somewhat of a threat to humanity. But I didn’t go very far until it dawned on me that while all this power was being built up, I wasn’t achieving the big thing I would really want. And that was what? – that nowhere was I incorporating or getting in the general package enough knowledge to prolong my life, beyond the ordinary span of any other animal that was programmed to live so long.

09:59

And I came to the conclusion – and I don’t expect to and don’t particularly care to live any longer than my lifespan – but I realized then that what I wanted was to know the score. The motivation changed, and the ego-prompted thing wasn’t so important. But I maintain that you’ve got to hang in with your egos. This thing of abolishing egos or dropping egos is foolishness. This is the reason people get into too much dope or too much booze. They write it off in a sort of suicidal thing: “Oh, well I’ll go out that way, I’ll return to nirvana.” I heard a person make a remark one time – they found some people dead on a doorstep up in New York who had overdosed – and somebody said, “Oh, what a beautiful way to go.” How do they know? How do they know they went to nirvana, that they dropped all their egos? They may have entered oblivion, because of the range of their experience.

10:55

But regardless, it’s necessary to hang onto the survival ego, until you’ve got something better to replace it with. When you reach your final experience you’ll drop it – you have to die, you have to go through the death experience to achieve it – but you return. And you return once more hanging onto your survival ego, or you can’t function. So these are all implants, necessary to keep you moving. They’re not evil. They’re not evil in themselves. The only thing is to learn how to play the violin, to learn which finger to play, which ego to play. I call it “milk from thorns” – use this interior negative energy to develop curiosity – the right curiosity, not for the porno movies.

11:47

But you do change. You create what I call a vector – it’s an engineering term but it describes best what happens – that after awhile you’ll realize that you’re not an individual, you’re not a unique rooster that the world will never forget. And when that happens, the rooster that caused all this seems to be left behind. But what happened in the meantime was that you developed a vector – a curiosity, a dynamic hunger, a drive – and that stays with you. And that is basically who you are when the thing is over. You are not the rooster, you are not the person named Jack or Jill, you are a vector. You are basically a vector. You are what you do. Every man is what he does.

12:55
=== Emotions, desires, implants ===

Q. Could you comment on emotions and their application if any towards the search?

R. Well, emotions are combinations of implants and appetites, basically. In other words, we react in a certain way, and the reaction sometimes is reinforced. For instance the emotion of love, the yearning if you’ve had love to be loved again and this sort of thing, is nothing more than an implant. It’s nothing divine. A lot of people like to think that their most mundane reproductive mechanisms are divine. If they are, then so are a goat’s, because I’ve watched them make love and I think they have a real mental experience. But that’s emotion.

14:04

Q. Inaudible.

R. No, they’re confusing. You have to be aware, you have to watch that too, you have to watch that happen. Because it’s a desire. For instance a kid wants a toy and the other kid takes the toy, and then you see anger. First of all it’s artificial. When the little child first shows anger it’s artificial, it’s just a means, of puffing up like a toad or something to frighten the other child out of the toy. But eventually it develops into a lifetime practice of anger – which we would call emotion. But these are basically mechanisms that are rooted in our desires, in our programming.

14:53

Q. Are you making a distinction between desires and emotion?

R. No, no. I mean the desire is basic, the emotion is the external manipulation they go through.

Q. Then the desire is just an implant.

R. Right, right.

Q. And anything else is just a reaction off that.

15:11

R. Yes, the emotion comes off the desire. There are two basic implants that the human has – by implants I mean that they’re programmed inside of you. One is desire and the other is curiosity. And we can’t control this. We can’t control our curiosity, and the thing is to recognize it and then use that in the vector. Use the curiosity in the right direction: allow yourself to be curious about philosophy or self-definition or something of that sort. The desire is organic; there’s no other explanation for it except that when the hormones develop to a certain point we develop desires. And a child, even though it doesn’t seem to have a hormonic domination, still has a desire for possession, desire for what it wants, the desire for a certain status – it doesn’t want the parent to leave, it doesn’t want to be weaned and this sort of thing. Those are all implants. They seem very complex, but after you look at them for a while they go back to a very basic appetite: we have a desire to possess and we have a desire to be in charge. The child has the desire to be in charge of its mother, and it will go through a period when it will try to run the whole house, to get things that it wants.

16:49

But these are all programmed in, and they go from parent to child to child, on indefinitely. You trace certain desire-patterns. Whether they get them by watching the parents or they’re inherited with the DNA molecules, I don’t know. But these are two things that are not us, and they’re organic, animal. The animals have them too. It’s very difficult when you observe the behavior of an animal closely enough and then observe the behavior of a human being, to see much difference in the program. The only thing that I could see is that somehow we’ve got a better choice; we can choose our actions a little better and we can think more. We also have more confusion, and out of more confusion can come more wisdom – I shouldn’t say wisdom, but more realization. In other words, we invented a complex language that gives us something to worry ourselves with.

17:57
=== Projections ===
Q. You were talking about projections. Let’s say an individual is looking at a female – could that be a projection that could be pulled back?

18:19

R. Well, you always have some type of projection. The idea is basically that a person doesn’t pull them back, but you outgrow them, you wear them out. You marry the character and then it belches in your face – and you say, “That ain’t a princess.” You just outgrow it. But you have a new projection then, a new rationalization. A new one will be built up. And of course we’ve got some magical words we use to supplant them. One of them is friendship. If we can develop a friendship, we can tolerate all of our disappointments and our projections.

19:05

Q. Could our connection with reality then be changed from that?

R. Oh, my lord yes. This is the whole thing. You realize that the only contact we have with reality is our senses, which themselves are erroneous, as evidenced in the ability to see a limited color range, a limited hearing range, the ability to see mirages, hallucinations and that sort of thing. We have a limited world that we live in. And we realize after awhile that this entire world could very well be projected. All of it. This is the great possibility, when you’re watching your mind – if we can momentarily detach ourselves from this world of agreement and just not agree to all of it, and then see what happens.

20:09

Gurdjieff’s grandmother supposedly when she was dying said to him, “Whatever people do, no matter what it is, do the opposite.” In other words, in order to shake this; to shake this idea about everybody – that the people are right, that the law is right, that the minister is holy. And one by one over a period of years we come to a new state of mind on the thing. We catch the preacher in the beer joint, we catch our judges in similar situations, stealing and so on. But generally by then it’s too late. When you find these things out it’s too late to form an honest appraisal or to look at things differently.

21:08

Q. Is there is a way we can change our perspective and not allow our egos to control us?

R. Well, you can’t. You can’t rise above your own convictions, until they are replaced by themselves. But as Dan said, if you loaf with a bunch of people who are just trying to challenge their thinking, to challenge any system of thinking, this helps. It’s not to denounce, it’s not to say something is bad. Everything’s good, everything has its purpose. Everything lifts somebody up a little bit. But maybe it won’t lift you up. Maybe you already went through it.

21:55

And I know with myself, when I was into this stuff I thought, “Boy, this is it.” I was about twenty years old and I was getting into spiritualism and I thought, “All I have to do is go out and talk to these dead people and find out where they’re at, and get a map of the place, and that’s it, and everything’s solved.” But I found out that you couldn’t tell. I could talk for two hours on spiritualism and the things I discovered, that assured me that you’d never find anything through spiritualism; because everything is evasive.

And then I got into yoga and I thought, “Oh, boy, now I’m finally getting wise, I’m getting away from this nonsense, this superstitious stuff. And I encountered the same thing there. I took initiations in kriya yoga and shabd yoga – Kirpal Singh was one of the teachers. It was the Radha Soami science, basically – Eckankar is an offshoot of it – where you visualize sounds, visualize molasses on your tonsils. These are all little things that when you first hear them you think, “Oh, boy, we’re getting into this magical world.” This is nonexistent. It’s a curse. You’re creating something that you’re going to have to erase.

23:19

Now maybe some of you people are into this and you’ll get angry. “Oh, this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about, because I was in that movement.” Okay, don’t argue with this person, because they have to go through it, that’s all. But if you can talk to him maybe you can save that guy ten years. I talked to a lady one time who was going on to seventy years of age, a Rosicrucian. And believe me, everyone I talked to – if a man told me he was a Theosophist or a Rosicrucian, especially if they’re sixty or seventy years old – I asked, “What did they do for you? What did you get out of it? Were there any great truths brought to you? Do you know the answer?”

24:03

Bob Martin and I when we were young went up to Cleveland and knocked on a Rosicrucian’s door – he was the head of this local circle up there. And he opened the door and took us in. This man had spent twenty-four years sending away for those mandamae [sp?] through the mail – two dollars a week for the rest of your life. So I thought this guy should know something; he should have something. And I said to him, “Would you endorse then the Rosicrucian Order?” And he said, “Oh, yes, a wonderful, wonderful group of people.” I said, “What did they do, basically, for you? Is there anything you can tell us, for instance, that would inspire me to follow your path?” And he said, “Let me think – did you ever see a needle float on water?” I mean this is the truth. He takes me into the kitchen and floats a needle on water. And I thought, “Twenty-four years to learn to float a needle on water?” You could at least have him change the stock market or something.

25:04

Then this other lady from New York who was in the Rosicrucians – the purpose of the Rosicrucian Order was to find your astral master while still living in your physical body; the Guardian of the Threshold so to speak. So I’m always curious – because these people spend forty years of their life and what are the results? – that they know which horse is coming in? And so I asked her, “What were the results?” She said, “Well, one day, I wasn’t really sure that I was awake, but he appeared at the foot of the bed and I asked him the two questions.” And I asked her, “What did he say?” She said, “He just shook his head, ‘No,’ and left.” And that was your one shot and you’re done, and he never came back again. So I think that from all the evidence that comes in, it doesn’t justify a lifetime of research. It might justify a lifetime of socializing with the people, if you like to do that. But whole the point in this is whether a person has the intuition to pick it up. If not, then you’ll offend him when you talk about it. So you just have to let them run their course.

26:19
=== Becoming ===

Q. I think maybe what you’re saying is that if you are, you are, and if you will be, then you will be, and there’s nothing you can do about it.

R. No, no. What you desire, you may be also.

Q. And you can become?

R. Sure, sure. We have no proof that we’re agents of free will. But unless we operate that way then there’s no other course but suicide. There’s no point in just continuing. In other words, if you don’t have any choice in your efforts, you couldn’t avoid suicide; that would be the next step. So anybody who isn’t committing suicide believes that he can do something. He may be fatalistic, but he believes that somewhere there’s a hope. As I said, we’re all robots, but everybody’s reaching behind themselves for the key; hoping to find the key that will make the mechanism deviate from its original course. There’s a hope of change, and this hope of change creates change; the desire to know will bring you closer to knowledge. The desire to experience pleasure will bring you closer to pleasure.

27:40

Now whether all the people who succeed were basically the people who desire – that it’s just a coincidence, that people were doomed to succeed and doomed to desire success – that could be. Or it could be that certain people who would not have succeeded otherwise developed a dynamic hunger, and the hunger caused them to act. Either one. But we can only operate with the latter: conviction. We have to operate as though we can do something. And all those people who succeed operate with that same principle. They believed that they could.

28:26
=== Resistance ===

Q. I find that people in general are afraid of metaphysical thoughts and resist if you talk about it.

28:38

R. Well, the things that I talked about tonight and the experiences I had were years ago, and I kept my mouth shut because of that same thing. I had a family to keep, I had three children to raise, I was in the contracting business and working different places, one place in the capacity of a head chemist. And if you even talked about these things you could get in trouble.

29:06

And I don’t know where this comes from, but I think that nature somehow avoids investigation of nature; that’s the feeling I have. I can’t prove it, but I have a feeling that nature would like to avoid the investigation of nature. So the religions that are natural religions just say, “Well, go ahead.” And this is one of the complaints I have had against a lot of the religions all over the world – Christian, Buddhist and all – that there’s was a certain group of people who searched quietly and they built morals around the search laboratory. And a lot of them pretty much kept their lives under control; they stayed away from extremes in sex and alcohol and that sort of thing. But they preached for the populace to reproduce, and to get drunk so that they could confess.

And this was one of my protests; that I do believe that you can and should take whatever information you have to the general public. And I’ve suffered – if you want to call it suffered – I don’t give a damn – because I’m at the point where I can’t suffer too much. But I’ve come to a point of freedom in which I can say what I please and express the things that have happened to me. And if they do somebody some good, well then I feel as though I’m functional. Otherwise there’s no point in me living. I’m not too good at passing on any other skills. But I agree with you a hundred percent.

30:46

Q. Inaudible.

R. There is a tremendous lot, yeah. Like Dan said, this group that they have here in Pittsburgh basically doesn’t advocate addiction to any religion or group. And because of that they came under criticism for not being true Zen or something like that. True Zen means being true fanatics, to some sandal-cracking groups of people.

[ tape ends 31:22 ]

[ End ]

== Footnotes ==

Url: http://direct-mind.org/index.php5?title=1977-11-Method-of-Going-Inside For access, send email to editors@direct-mind.org

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Yoga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Aquinas

Psychology of the Observer, pg. 20-21 and 26.

The second form of reaction.

Rose uses the word “anterior” (literally, front) to describe an inner or more real perspective, but in conjunction with words like “getting behind the mind” this seems contradictory; however, “anterior” also has the meaning of “preceding”. Also see footnote #1.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gestalt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_therapy

In 1942 Rose worked at Julien P. Friez, a manufacturer of meteorological instruments in Baltimore.

The Crack in the Cosmic Egg (1973). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Chilton_Pearce

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions (1962). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuhn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Ornstein

Robert E. Ornstein, Psychology of Consciousness. Rose makes the same reference in Psychology of the Observer, p. 9. In this tape recording Rose say’s “Epstein”, corrected here. General article at Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralization_of_brain_function

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_periodic_table and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_chemical_elements_discoveries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston

April 6, 1978 Meeting in Pittsburgh: “Yes sir, this stuff doesn’t happen by accident, it comes from Washington. All these big moves come from Washington.”

Imagery congruent with the term “anterior observer”. See footnote #6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_the_Cross

Early start and end of puberty results in fewer growing years, while exposure of girls to certain males produces early onset of puberty. New York Times, Mar. 30, 2012, “Puberty Before Age 10: A New ‘Normal’?” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/magazine/puberty-before-age-10-a-new-normal.html

Also see Psychology of the Observer, pg. 22-23, “Six different forms of perceiving”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meher_Baba

See 1976-0304-Meeting-Pittsburgh for a lengthy discussion on Meher Baba.

Timothy Leary, Ken Kesey.

Rose details his LSD experience in a letter to Robert Martin, February 18, 1969. See pages 104-105 of Peace to the Wanderer, pdf in this directory: http://selfdefinition.org/rose/

By being celibate.

Rose advocated celibacy for young people but believed that extended periods of celibacy for older men could cause prostate trouble.

1 Corinthians 7:9. “But if they cannot contain let them marry, for it is better to marry than to burn.”

See Albigen Papers, chapter 7, “Discernment”.

Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson, vol. 1, ch. 1, pg. 27 in the pdf:. “From the moment of its arising, [this] became as it were the chief directing lever of my entire whole.” http://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff/

Richard Rose: “Yoga: Hatha, Shabd, and Raja”. http://www.searchwithin.org/download/yoga.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpal_Singh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radha_Soami

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckankar

Spiritual nectar trickling down from the chakras.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_of_the_Threshold

== End ==

x

Recordings

2026-04-27T18:10:57Z

Dmadmin: update 1977-11-Method-of-Going-Inside-Pittsburgh for new audio

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== Comments ==

Note - Some page names will be adjusted after further investigation. Title of recording is <span style="font-weight:normal;color:lightskyblue;">blue</span> if a page has been created, and <span class="pink" style="font-weight:bold;">Pink</span> if not. Scroll down to see list. See "Fair Use" copyright information here: [[Copyrights]] and on the [[Main_Page]]. Pages that have been published in books (copyright Rose Publications) and pages with personal correspondence are restricted. Send an email for information.

== Conventions ==

Page name is generally comprised of Date + Title + Location. MediaWiki (this software) can have a "Talk" (Discussion) page behind each Article page (see link at top). These can be used to help sort out issues in identifying and cross-checking dates, alternate tapes of the same lecture, possible locations, etc., whatever needs to be discussed. See the "Categories" link (top of each page) for tags used for cross-referencing. Everything is a work in process and far from completion.

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<tbody>
<tr>
<td>Test Table      </td>
<td>Top row</td>
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<td>Test content</td>
<td>Second row</td>
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</tbody>


<h2 class="year">
1970s</h2>

<div class="recordings-section">

<div class="header">
<div class="recording">Recording
</div><div class="action">Action
</div><div class="status">Status
</div><div class="remarks">Remarks
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[Early-Meeting-to-identify]]
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">1st pass file 1 only
</div><div class="remarks">Need to locate the audio and identify the talk.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1970s-Truth-an-Early-Lecture-abandon-this-page-moved]]
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Duplicate, fragment<br/>Moved
</div><div class="remarks">Renamed [[1978-0226-Truth-an-Early-Lecture-abandon-this]] This is a lower quality version of [[1978-0226-The-Truth-University-of-Pittsburgh]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1970s or 1973 Definition-of-Zen-Kent-State-page moved]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Moved
</div><div class="remarks">Renamed [[1976-Definition-of-Zen-Kent-State]] as below
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1970s-Going-Within-commercial-recording-page-moved]]
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Moved
</div><div class="remarks">Renamed [[1978-0412-Going-Within-commercial-recording]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1970s-Going-Within-Q-and-A-fragment-page-moved]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Moved
</div><div class="remarks">This was renamed [[1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-2]] It is the second half of [[1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-1]] which is the same as [[1978-0412-Going-Within-commercial-recording]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1972-July-Theosophical-Society-Pittsburgh-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> Augie T book
</div><div class="remarks">Need date. Rose's first public lecture. Probably not taped. Month per Augie's book. Retrospect 1974 "Notes on the year" says Pittsburgh and Kent groups formed Fall of 1972. Columbus in Fall of 1973. Cleveland Fall of 1974.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1972-Fall-First-meeting-in-Kent-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only, <br>Al Fitz book.
</div><div class="remarks">Title: "Zen and the American Mind" per into by Al Fitz in [[1992-0326-Truth-Lies-Ultimate-Reality-Pitt]] and in his book Sex Connection, Probably not taped. Date from 1974 Retrospect. No poster.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1973-Lecture-of-Questions-Kent-State-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>Casari article
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned by Michael Casari in "The Man Who Was a Mirror" https://selfdefinition.org/rose/about/richard-rose-the-man-who-was-a-mirror.htm
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-Zen-and-Common-Sense-may-be-misdated]]<br> Misdated, fragment
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Published in<br> Html, PDF.
</div><div class="remarks">This is the version published on TAT and SearchWithin.Org and is a misdated fragment. The entire talk is this: [[1977-0428-Zen-and-Common-Sense-KSU]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-0221-Zen-and-Esoteric-Spiritual-Paths-Pitt-missing-tape]] 1 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Clipping only
</div><div class="remarks">See announcement on page from Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-0227-Carnegie-Mellon-missing-tape]] <br>2 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Clipping only
</div><div class="remarks">See announcement page from Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-0422-Wesley Foundation-Columbus-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mentions only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Announced by Cergol in the first PZS newsletter, dated April 1974. "Last lecture of the school year." Mentioned by Rose in Monitor Papers as "Wesleyan Foundation".
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-0907-WKSU-Radio-Interview-Kent-State]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Direct-Mind Experience
</div><div class="remarks">Page needs formatting (subheaders, italics, etc.) [no mention of Ramana]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-Fall-Public-Meeting-Kent-State-Q-and-A]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">First pass<br>Aug 10, 2015<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Fragment. SH spoke as monitor. Formerly "undated Q&A". See notes. Possibly same day as WKSU interview above. [mentions Ramana]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-0908-Theosophical-Society-Pittsburgh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Draft in process Nov. 2014
</div><div class="remarks">Commercial recording Rose Publications. [mentions kevala samadhi but not Ramana by name]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-1010-Duquesne-University-Pittsburgh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed<br>Jun 24, 2011<br> Partial
</div><div class="remarks">Distributed transcript was from partial version, 64 min only. DW has full. SN and BM are partial. Rose has recently discovered Ramana Maharshi - doesn't remember his full name
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-1017-Carnegie-Mellon-Pittsburgh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed<br>Nov 7, 2015
</div><div class="remarks">Very concise early lecture.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-1022-Case-Western-Reserve-Cleveland]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH transcribed <br>about 2005. <br>Published in <br>Journal.
</div><div class="remarks">Rose says this is his first lecture in the Cleveland area. Published as Zen, Spiritual Steps & Spiritual Systems in TAT Journal (4 parts, first is Nov. 2005). Some tape lists have this misdated as 10/23 (but that was Columbus - next)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-1023-Laws-Columbus]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed<br>Sep 3, 2010
</div><div class="remarks">Rose says this is the 2nd year in Columbus
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-1025-Pittsburgh-Meeting-page-moved]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Moved
</div><div class="remarks">Original MP3 files mis-dated. This is [[1979-1025-What-Is-Thought-Pittsburgh-Meeting]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-1108-Theosophical-Society-Akron-missing-tape]]<br> "Zen Buddhism and the Spiritual Path"
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Stub
</div><div class="remarks">Former name [[1974-1108-Theosophical-Society-Akron-to-resolve]]. Announcement discovered May 2020. Title: "Zen Buddhism and the Spiritual Path". Possibly the mention in [[1975-Akron-to-resolve]] "last night" could be to this, but there is no real mention of Zen in that lecture, so probably not.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-1111-Kent-State-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">R says in [[1974-1112-Obstacles-Cleveland]] that he was in Kent the day before.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1974-1112-Obstacles-Cleveland]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH-distributed<br>Sep 1, 2009
</div><div class="remarks">R says he was in Kent the day before, but no tape was located yet with that date.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-Theosophical-Society-Akron]]<br> missing tape. misidentified<br>1 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">
</div><div class="remarks"> Renamed to [[1975-Akron-version-1]] which is the same as [[1975-Akron-to-resolve]]. See next. Rose refers to this talk in that lecture.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-Akron-version-1]] <br>2 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status"> SH 1st pass<br>June 17, 2025
</div><div class="remarks">Good recording, Gary's tapes. Auto-AI Nov 16, 2024. See [[AI-Status]] At file 2, minute 3:07 he says he spoke at the Theosophical Society the night before. See previous. Former name [[1975-Theosophical-Society-Akron]], misidentified, page moved to here June 17, 2025. Probably not [[1975-1008-Kent-State-missing-tape]] or [[1975-1009-University-of-Akron-missing-tape]] "Zen and the Western Mind" as the topic doesn't match.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-Akron-to-resolve]] partial <br>3 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH 2nd pass,<br> Dec 2014
</div><div class="remarks">Slipping tape. Yellow cassette, unknown source, SH collection, not sh handwriting. Rose mentions that the night before, he spoke at Theosophical Society in Akron
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-Man-As-A-Liar-University-of-Pittsburgh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed<br>Jan 24, 2015
</div><div class="remarks">Nevins collection. Was [[undated-Man-As-A-Liar-Univ-Pitt-page-moved]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-0206-Kent-State]] is in Akron, see next<br> 1 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed<br> April 11, 2011
</div><div class="remarks">Zen and Esoteric Systems. See next. Akron Chapter of PZS. Chestnut Room of Gardner Student Center
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-0206-Zen-and-Esoteric-Systems-Akron]]<br>2 of 2
</div><div class="action">Must correct<br>the PDF
</div><div class="status">Redirect the <br>above to here
</div><div class="remarks">This will be the real name of [[1975-0206-Kent-State]]. Newspaper article discovered May 2020 shows the above lecture was in Gardner Student Center, Univ of Akron, not Kent, agreeing with the old spreadsheet. Title is Zen and Esoteric Systems (Akron)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-0218-Case-Western-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">
</div><div class="remarks">Announcement Cleveland Plain Dealer Feb 14, 1975: Lecture on Zen Buddhism, Thwing Hall, 8 pm
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-0220-Zen-and-Esoteric-Spiritual-Paths-Pitt-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Article only
</div><div class="remarks">See Pittsburgh Post announcement 2/15/1975 on page, includes next entry. Date error: paper incorrectly says 1974, in Google News indexed as 1975, and stock quote in paper says 1975
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-0227-Carnegie-Mellon-Q-and-A-Pittsburgh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br> Dec 3, 2024<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Audio quality horrible, must review auto-transcript. Looking for a better version. See entry on [[1975-0220-Zen-and-Esoteric-Spiritual-Paths-Pitt-missing-tape]] re date error: newspaper article says 1974, Google and stock quote say 1975.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-0417-Akron-Univ-Path-to-Truth-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Added May 2020, newspaper article ABJ. Need article.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-Aug-or-Sep-Washington-DC-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZS newsletter Sept. 1975. Also Retrospect 1975: "Mike Treanor, with the help of Augie Turak, set up a lecture at American University at Washington, D.C."
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-1002-University-of-Pittsburgh-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZS newsletter Sept. 1975
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-1007-Case-Western-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only, <br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZS newsletter Sept. 1975
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-1008-Kent-State-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only, <br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZS newsletter Sept. 1975
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-1009-University-of-Akron-missing-tape]] Zen and the Western Mind
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only, <br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZS newsletter Sept. 1975. Announcement discovered May 2020. Title: "Zen and the Western Mind"
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-1011-Columbus-Ohio-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZS newsletter Sept. 1975
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-1012-Cleveland]]
</div><div class="action">To resolve.
</div><div class="status">SH distributed 11/18/2011
</div><div class="remarks">Page was orig. dated as 1974-1012 which was thought to be an error. However, looking at the schedules in Oct 1974 and Oct 1975, the date fits with 1974 better. << this is now doubtful. Compare other Cleveland tapes Oct 1974 and Oct 1975.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-10-October-Intensive-Columbus-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">An intensive w/ Mr. Rose; mentioned in the PZS newsletters of September 1976 (a year later).
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-1025-1026-Intensive-Wash-DC-missing-tape]]<br>might be [[1975-1025-Group-Meeting]]
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 18, 2024<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">An intensive in DC by Augie and Mr. Rose; mentioned in the PZS newsletters of October 1975, and November 1975. This may be "RR-undistributed, [[1975-1025-Group-Meeting]] (has Auto-AI). Have sides 3 and 4 only. Very muddy sound. Auto transcript at Rev.Com.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-1106-and-1112-Boston-YWCA-missing-tapes]]
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">140 Clarendon St. Boston. Announcement discovered May 2020. Nov 6 is Thurs. Nov 12 is Weds.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-1118-Brown-University-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub + venue info
</div><div class="remarks">In Providence, Rhode Island. Mentioned in PZS newsletter November, 1975, and in Boston PZS newsletter Nov. 6, 1975.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-1119-Lecture-at-Boston-College-from-DME]] missing tapes<br>1 of 2
</div><div class="action">Verify tapes against the book version
</div><div class="status">Published in Direct-Mind-Experience and SearchWithin.Org
</div><div class="remarks">This has been transcribed and published but audio tapes are missing. < check this. multiple issues. Tapes labeled "1975-1119 Boston College" are not this talk. See [[1975-1119-Boston-College-date-conflict]] (next). dw version tapes 1, 2, 3 and 4 of [[1975-1119-Boston-College-misnamed]] were transcribed by Auto-AI on Dec 18, 2024 at Rev.com. They are different from this talk.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording"> [[1975-1119-Boston-College-misnamed]] formerly [[1975-1119-Boston-College-date-conflict]] All audio files (3 versions: bm, dm, dw) were renamed and moved to [[1977-0311-University-Maryland-Baltimore]] on Dec 28, 2024, in OneDrive only, not yet in Dropbox.<br>2 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Auto-AI 1st pass of these tapes added to existing, partial 1st pass of [[1977-0311-University-Maryland-Baltimore]]. <br>1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 10, 2024<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">This is a different lecture than was published with the same title in Direct-Mind Experience (see prior). This tape has two different dates: 1) [[1975-1119-Boston-College]] and 2) [[1977-0311-University-Maryland-Baltimore]]. This version is better quality audio than U. Maryland. BM, DM, DW, MJ have both versions (same audio, different audio quality). Gary Gilmore was tried in Oct. 1976, executed Jan 1977. So date can't be 1975-1119.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1975-1213-1214-Intensive-Farm-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Intensive was mentioned in PZS newsletter November, 1975
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-Definition-of-Zen-Kent-State]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed Dec 25, 2011
</div><div class="remarks">Former title [[1973-Definition-of-Zen-Kent-State]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-Pittsburgh page moved]]<br>1 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Moved
</div><div class="remarks">Renamed [[1976-Spirit-of-Zen-Pittsburgh]] Title is given in the introduction. BM collection.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-Spirit-of-Zen-Pittsburgh]]<br>2 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">On SearchWithin.Org as Pittsburgh PA 1976 Lecture
</div><div class="remarks">Formerly "1976-Pittsburgh". Possibly [[1976-1021-Student-Union-Pitt-missing-tape]]. See notes for details.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1970s-Lecture-in-Los-Angeles-commercial-recording]] <br> This is [[1976-01-New-Age-Bookstore-Los-Angeles-misdated]] <br>1 of 2
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Commercial CD <br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Need to identify which L.A. lecture this is.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-01-New-Age-Bookstore-Los-Angeles-misdated]] <br> Same as [[1970s-Lecture-in-Los-Angeles-commercial-recording]]<br>2 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SearchWithin.Org as Los Angeles CA Lecture. TAT Forum Feb 2005 as "Jacob's Ladder"
</div><div class="remarks">Some tapes dated 1976-0216. Dan N. says date should be 1979 or 1980. See Discussion page for details and see [[1976-0216-Los-Angeles-date-error]]. Could be [[1979-02-missing-talk-west-coast-1]] or [[1979-missing-talk-west-coast-2]]. In intro Dan mentions 2 more upcoming lectures. There is no mention of Los Angeles in the Retrospects of 1979 and 1970. There are mentions in 1976, but the group members are different.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0126-Zen-and-Esoteric-Christianity-LA]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Jake transcribed 2004. SearchWithin.Org. <br>Auto-AI Dec 17, 2024 used for doing the revision<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Date appears in PZ Newsletter Feb. 1976, page 4: Religious Conference Auditorium near UCLA. Published on SearchWithin.Org Revision in process Dec. 2014. Auto-transcribe rev.com on 2024-1217 using mj version. See note, Schmidt version is 30 min longer. Auto-AI at Rev.Com, make sure to check against Schmidt version.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0213-Houston-TX-Unitarian-Church-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Date appears in PZ Newsletter Feb. 1976, page 3. Location appears in PZ Newsletter of March 1976.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0216-Los-Angeles-date-error]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Moved.<br> Stub has date <br> calculations.
</div><div class="remarks">Date is wrong. Cannot be Feb 16, 1976 as PZ News Feb. 1976 says R returned from L.A. on Feb. 16. Page moved to [[1976-01-New-Age-Bookstore-Los-Angeles-misdated]] See comments there. Could be 1979-0216 etc. Read Intro for more details.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0224-Case-Western-Cleveland-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Date appears in PZ Newsletters Jan, Feb. 1976.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0225-Kent-State-University-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Date appears in PZ Newsletters Jan, Feb. 1976. Also ABJ announcement the prior Sunday, Feb. 22. Meeting in the Kent Student Center. Another announcement and an Ad discovered May 2020. Lecture title "Zen and the Goal of Christian Mysticism". See if this is [[1976-Definition-of-Zen-Kent-State]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0226-Paths-To-Spiritual-Enlightenment-Pitt-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub has article
</div><div class="remarks">Date appears in PZ Newsletters Jan, Feb. 1976. Article in Pittsburgh Press is on the page. Pitt Student Union. 100 people attended per PZ Newsletter March 1976.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0304-Group-Meeting-with-Rose-Pittsburgh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Notes only
</div><div class="remarks">Argument about Meher Baba. Bob Martin tells story about meeting Einstein.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0409-The-Path-Columbus]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Only half published.<br> TAT Forum-5 parts by SH
</div><div class="remarks">Existing transcription is the first hour only. Talk is 2 hrs 15 min. Part 1 here: http://tatfoundation.org/forum2002-11.htm#1
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0615-Beyond-the-Veil-of-Maya-Dhammapada-Books-LA]] Al Fitz
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">--
</div><div class="remarks">Announcement found May 2020, Woodland Hills, CA, LA Times June 13, 1976. Correction: Talk is by Alan Fitzpatrick, not by RR.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0619-Warren-Light-Center-Franklin-PA-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZ newsletter June 1976. There were other speakers at the event.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0708-Rose-at-PZS-Mtg-Pittsburgh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass in process Oct 2014
</div><div class="remarks">DW version confirms date and location; Cassette says 1976-0708-Pyramid-Zen-Mtg-Pittsburgh. SN version is one of the [[Zen-and-Common-Sense-Fragments]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0726-Energy-Entities-Lecture-Pittsburgh-Misnamed]] and misdated. "LECTURE" <br>1 of 2
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">[[Tape-with-5-Names]]<br> 1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 4, 2024<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Misnamed, based on content, and misdated. This is probably [[1978-0406-Zen-The-Most-Perfect-Psychoanalysis-Pitt]]. Auto-AI at Rev.com.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-0729-Energy-Entities-group-meeting-Pittsburgh]] "MEETING" <br>2 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">In process SH Feb 2012
</div><div class="remarks">Same date as "1 of 2" above. (some say 7/26, some 7/29) Meeting begins w/ someone reading 16 min. extract of Transmission Paper. Then Rose speaks.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-08-Group-Meeting-with-Rose-Akron]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Attempt 1st pass Auto-AI<br> Dec 5, 2024.<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">August 1976 meeting. Jaqua cassette sent 2015. 1 x 90. Black w/ white label. Audio very bad. Poor results with auto-transcript, most not picked up.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-10-Lecture-Fragment-deleted]]<br>1 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Moved/<br>deleted
</div><div class="remarks">Abandon this. SN and DW "Fragment II" is [[1976-1021-Spirit-of-Zen-Pittsburgh]] aka/or [[1976-Spirit-of-Zen-Pittsburgh]] (1 of 2 and 2 of 2 above)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-10-Lecture-of-Questions-Mt-Lebanon-missing-tape]]<br>2 of 3
</div><div class="action">To <br>Resolve
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">See notes to [[1976-Spirit-of-Zen-Pittsburgh]] or [[1976-1021-Student-Union-Pitt-missing-tape]] where Rose says, "I gave the Lecture of Questions at Mt Lebanon a couple weeks ago." To resolve against [[1976-10-Lecture-Fragment]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-1021-Student-Union-Pitt-missing-tape]]<br>3 of 3
</div><div class="action">To resolve, see notes on page
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub has leads
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZ Newsletter Nov. 1976. Probably is [[1976-Spirit-of-Zen-Pittsburgh]]. (1 of 2 and 2 of 2 above)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-1022-Wesley-Foundation-Columbus-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only, <br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZ Newsletter Sept. & Oct. 1976.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-1026-Case-Western-Reserve-Cleveland-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Mention only, <br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZ Newsletter Sept. & Oct. 1976. Lectures also by 4 group members that month: A.F., B.W., F.M., A.T. All at Thwing Hall. Cleveland Plain Dealer: "Esoteric Christianity". See page.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-1026-Kent-State-University-missing-tape-date-error moved]]
</div><div class="action">Date conflict
</div><div class="status">Moved
</div><div class="remarks">Formerly [[1976-1026-Kent-State-University-missing-tape-date-error]] Page redirected to [[1976-1027-KSU-Esoteric-Christianity-and-Zen-missing-tape]]

</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-1027-KSU-Esoteric-Christianity-and-Zen-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub has article
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZ Newsletter Oct. 1976. BUT same date specified for Cleveland. Says R got room in Holiday Inn. 10/26/75 is a Tuesday. Announcement discovered May 2020. KSU Student Center, "Esoteric Christianity and Zen" 10/27/75 is a Wednesday.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1976-1202-Theosophical-Society-Pittsburgh-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub has SH<br> email to TS
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZ Newsletter Dec. 1976. "Informal Talk."
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-0109-West-Shore-Unitarian-Cleveland-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in PZ Newsletter Jan. 1977. R's talk was on the work of the TAT Society.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-0204-Pittsburgh-February]]
</div><div class="action">To Resolve
</div><div class="status">[[Tape-with-5-Names]]<br> Partial transc., notes
</div><div class="remarks">Side 1 and 2 are verbatim of side 3 and 4 of "1976 Energy and Entities Lecture", Pittsburgh, 7/29/1976. Either this tape is mislabeled or the other is mislabeled. See notes in transcription: Most likely date is Jake's: [[1978-0406-Group-Meeting-with-Rose-Pittsburgh]] based on remarks on side 2 at min 35.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-0224-Esoteric-Christianity-Student-Union-Pitt-missing-tape]]<br> 1 of 2
</div><div class="action">To resolve. See next.
</div><div class="status">Stub has article
</div><div class="remarks">Existing tapes for 1977-0224 may be misdated. See newspaper article on page. "Esoteric Christianity and Zen." Dining room at Pitt Student Union, Oakland. for date, topic, venue. DM Collection has. PZ News March 1977: "Mr. Rose gave a very successful talk at the University of Pittsburgh, which was attended by 90 enthusiastic listeners."
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-0224-University-of-Pittsburgh]] Misdated. <br>2 of 2
</div><div class="action"> To resolve. See prior.
</div><div class="status">[[Tape-with-5-Names]]
</div><div class="remarks">This is same as [[1978-0406-Zen-The-Most-Perfect-Psychoanalysis-Pitt]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-0311-University-Maryland-Baltimore]]
</div><div class="action">To Resolve
</div><div class="status">1st pass of side 1, partial side 2. Feb 2014
</div><div class="remarks">The D. Mettle and B. Marshall versions of the tape [[1975-1119-Boston-College-date-conflict]] (DM bag 1) are a better version of this recording. See notes for that entry above. Bart also has 2 cassettes labeled "1977-0311-University-Maryland"
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-0405-Zen-Columbus-precursor-to-Zen-and-CS]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distrib 2005. PDF on SearchWithin.Org
</div><div class="remarks">Contains "The reality of thought" Mentioned in PZ newsletters of March and April 1977. 75 people attended.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-0426-Intro-to-Albigen-System-Cleveland]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SearchWithin.Org - Partial only
</div><div class="remarks">Has Commercial Disk - Rose Publications. DW version has material not in transcript.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-0428-Zen-and-Common-Sense-KSU]]
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Transcribed by SH. TAT Forum Dec. 2001<br>See [[AI-Status]], many fragments to resolve
</div><div class="remarks">This talk has extensive Discussion page. Has a duplicate set of tapes. Mentioned in PZ newsletter of April 1977.<br />This talk is dated 1974 on SearchWithin (a partial transcript). <br />Audio files have 1979 in name. See page for explanation.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[Zen-and-Common-Sense-Fragments]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">In process<br> July 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Transcriptions of the various fragments contained with Zen and Common Sense tapes and files. But these do not belong to Z and CS. They are a meeting in Cleveland and one in Pittsburgh.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[Zen-and-Common-Sense-File-List]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">In process<br> July 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">To identify and reconcile the fragments contained with Zen and Common Sense tapes and files
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-0521-Symposium-Washington-DC-Informal]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH 1st pass in process, side 1 only, Nov. 2014. AI Candidate<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">--
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-0915-Zen-and-Death-Washington-DC]] a.k.a. "Intuitional-Psychology"
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">TAT Forum
</div><div class="remarks">This is a commercial recording, Rose Publications. Being serialized in 4 parts in TAT Forum beginning Oct. 2015 http://tatfoundation.org/forum2015-10.htm#6
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-1004-Psychology-of-Zen-Science-of-Knowing-OSU]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed 11/3/2014
</div><div class="remarks">Rose says "3rd in series" of Psychology of the Observer. Reads excerpt from the paper. (full reading is in the next entry)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-1012-Psychology-of-the-Observer-Kent-State]] 1 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Extensive notes Feb. 2015
</div><div class="remarks">Rose reads the paper (same as previous entry) at the beginning, mostly straight through (without interspersing with comments) Update 2024:This is the same as [[1977-1012-Psychology-of-the-Observer-commercial-recording]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-1012-Psychology-of-the-Observer-commercial-recording]] Kent State 2 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Commercial CD
</div><div class="remarks">Update 2024: This is the same as [[1977-1012-Psychology-of-the-Observer-Kent-State]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-1013-Truth-its-Attainment-and-Transmission-Akron-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Announcement found May 2020. ABJ Monday 10 Oct 1977. The 13th is Thurs. Beech Room Gardner Student Center. Need to add to page.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1977-11-Method-of-Going-Inside-Pittsburgh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed 4/13/2012. Auto-AI 7 pages for new audio.
</div><div class="remarks">NOT the commercial recording. Need to locate day of month if not 01. Discovered new audio in DM collection, 33 minutes total, see page. Does NOT appear in PZS News Oct, Nov or Dec 1977.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-Direct-Mind-Intensive-WV]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Readings by R from various works, most published. See page for list.
</div><div class="remarks">a.k.a. [[1978-DM-Intensive-Questions-and-Readings]]. See if this was a possible winter intensive or was the June Chautauqua. Note: similar format as [[1981-Intensive-Farm]] but they are different.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0225-possible-talk-in-Akron]]
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">In [[1978-0226-The-Truth-University-of-Pittsburgh]] Rose says he was speaking in Akron the day before. Try to locate PZS Newsletters for Feb and Mar 1978. Missing from Resources: https://data.direct-mind.org/resources
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0226-Truth-an-Early-Lecture-abandon-this]]<br>1 of 2
</div><div class="action">Abandon this
</div><div class="status">Duplicate-fragment
</div><div class="remarks">This is a lower quality version of [[1978-0226-The-Truth-University-of-Pittsburgh]] next
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0226-The-Truth-University-of-Pittsburgh]]<br>2 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed<br>June 2, 2012
</div><div class="remarks"> 31 min + 30 min = 61 minutes. Needs headset.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0406-Group-Meeting-with-Rose-Pittsburgh]] page moved<br>1 of 3
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">[[Tape-with-5-Names]] Redirected
</div><div class="remarks">This is redirected to [[1978-0406-Zen-The-Most-Perfect-Psychoanalysis-Pitt]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0406-Zen-The-Most-Perfect-Psychoanalysis-Pitt-missing-tape]] 2 of 3
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>[[Tape-with-5-Names]]<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Article in Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - see page for link. See next. Weimer has 1x90 cassette labeled "Pittsburgh 4/6/78". Auto transcript Rev.Com
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0406-Zen-The-Most-Perfect-Psychoanalysis-Pitt]] 3 of 3
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">[[Tape-with-5-Names]] SH 1st pass May 2014, 1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 17, 2024<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Former name: [[1978-0406-Group-Meeting-with-Rose-Pittsburgh]] but this is a lecture, not a meeting. This is the same as [[1976-0726-Energy-Entities-Lecture-Pittsburgh-Misnamed]] and misdated
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0411-Cleveland-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">R says in [[1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-1]] : "I was talking in Cleveland last night." Announcement, Cleveland Plain Dealer, see page
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-1]] fragment 1<br>1 of 3
</div><div class="action">See next
</div><div class="status">SH distributed August 25, 2011
</div><div class="remarks">Only 60 min long. Continued in [[1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-2]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-2]] fragment 2<br>2 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br> Dec 3, 2024<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Same as [[1970s-Going-Within-commercial-recording]] This is a continuation of [[1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-1]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0412-Going-Within-commercial-recording]]<br>3 of 3
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Commercial CD. See prior.
</div><div class="remarks">Q&A fragment of a lecture, 62 minutes. This is the same as [[1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-2]] which is the second half of [[1978-0412-Going-Within-KSU-Part-1]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0511-Relative-and-Absolute-OSU-Columbus]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed August 28, 2012
</div><div class="remarks">Audio quality very good. Intro by Lou Khourey
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0603-0604-June-Chautauqua-hypnosis-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Have long article<br> but no audio.
</div><div class="remarks">A Chautauqua was given in June 1978 with the topic of hypnosis. See here for details:<br />http://www.searchwithin.org/journal/tat_journal-04.html#7<br>
This is likely [[1980s-Chautauqua-Hypnosis-Demonstration]] (misdated) which has 1st pass by E, Clark (below)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-0915-University-of-Maryland-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Washington DC group. PZS Newsletter October 1978 says Mr. Rose lectured to 40 people at the Student Union.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-10-Moods-OSU-date-error]] (is 1979)<br>Former name [[1978-10-Moods-OSU-date-conflict]] (redirected to here)
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Stub has resolution/<wbr>identification
</div><div class="remarks">Tape was misnamed. Tape broken, a fragment of side 2, of 120 min cassette. This is the same as [[1979-Moods-Ohio-State-unpublished]] sides 3 and 4. The commercial version is [[ 1979-Moods-commercial-recording]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-10-Pittsburgh-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">In 1978-1023-Nostalgia-Dreams-CW Rose mentions a talk given "in Pittsburgh the other day" (side 1 at 22:30)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-1018-Case-Western-possible-duplicate]] <br>1 of 2
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">
</div><div class="remarks">PZS Newsletter Oct 1978 says a lecture by Mr Rose was scheduled Oct 18 at 1914 Lounge of Thwing Hall at Case Western. Is this the same or different from next, on Oct 23, also at Case?
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1978-1023-Nostalgia-and-Dreams-Case-Western]] <br>2 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed <br>July 28, 2011
</div><div class="remarks">This is an earlier version of "Moods" lecture given in Columbus
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1979-02-missing-talk-west-coast-1]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">See page for calendar, mentions
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in [[1979-0418-Direct-Mind-Approach-to-Absolute-OSU]]. Could be [[1976-01-New-Age-Bookstore-Los-Angeles-misdated]] which is possibly [[1976-0216-Los-Angeles-date-error]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1979-missing-talk-west-coast-2]] (prob. Feb.)
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in [[1979-0418-Direct-Mind-Approach-to-Absolute-OSU]], below. See prior for discussion.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1979-0403-Psychology-of-the-Observer-Synod-Hall]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Pramod finished 2nd pass Jan 2016
</div><div class="remarks">Oakland, PA (Pittsburgh). Cassettes of DM and files of MJ are 2 talks mixed. See notes on page for sorting them out.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1979-0418-Direct-Mind-Approach-to-Absolute-OSU]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH first pass<br> Dec 2015<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">"Psychology & Zen" is mentioned at beginning as the topic. On side 1 at 05:55 Rose says, "I was out on the West Coast giving lectures a couple of months ago"
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1979-1025-What-Is-Thought-Pittsburgh-Meeting]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed<br>June 8, 2009
</div><div class="remarks">Formerly mis-dated 10-25-74
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1979-1128-Values-Ohio-State-University]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Sides 1, 2 first pass. Sides 3, 4 notes only
</div><div class="remarks">M. Fitz version has 2 1/2 min more at start. Update Feb. 2015.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1979-Moods-commercial-recording]]<br>1 of 3
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Commercial CD
</div><div class="remarks">Rose Publications. This is a 90 min part of [[1979-Moods-Ohio-State-unpublished]], which is 120 min. It is NOT the book version, [[1979-Moods-Ohio-State-from-DME]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1979-Moods-Ohio-State-from-DME]]<br>2 of 3
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Direct-Mind Experience.<br> Transcribed M. Fitz
</div><div class="remarks">This is the published version (restricted access). Book heading says "From the Original Notes" and is very different than the Commercial recording of Rose Pub. It obviously has additional writing that was not in the recorded lecture. Version on page is the old html copy but it appears to match the book scan.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1979-Moods-Ohio-State-unpublished]]<br>3 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Auto-AI and 1st pass <br>July 4, 2025.<br> 2nd pass in process.
</div><div class="remarks">The full 120 min of [[1979-Moods-commercial-recording]] (above), which is only 90 min. This will be the page if the tape is transcribed. It is significantly different from the book.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1979-or-1980-New-Age-Bookstore-Los-Angeles]] Possibly move here when identified
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">On SearchWithin.Org as Los Angeles CA Lecture
</div><div class="remarks">See [[1976-01-New-Age-Bookstore-Los-Angeles-misdated]] above and its Discussion page.
</div></div>

</div>

<h2 class="year">
1980s</h2>

<div class="recordings-section">

<div class="header">
<div class="recording">Recording
</div><div class="action">Action
</div><div class="status">Status
</div><div class="remarks">Remarks
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980s-Chautauqua-Hypnosis-Demonstration]] misdated
</div><div class="action">Need to finish
</div><div class="status">Eric Clark 1st pass, Aug 2009
</div><div class="remarks">This is likely [[1978-0603-0604-June-Chautauqua-hypnosis-missing-tape]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980s-Mr-Rose-at-the-Farm]]
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Moved
</div><div class="remarks">This is [[1981-0809-Mr-Rose-Talking-at-the-Farm]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-0120 possible date error]]
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Moved
</div><div class="remarks">Located SH originals, moved to [[1981-0809-Mr-Rose-Talking-at-the-Farm]] Do not confuse date with "1980-1120"
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-Metaphysics-Columbus moved]]
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Moved
</div><div class="remarks">This is [[1980-Winter-Psychology-and-Metaphysics-Columbus]] below
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-Winter-Metaphysics-St-Stephens-Pittsburgh-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Mentions. <br>See page for info.
</div><div class="remarks">In [[1980-Winter-Psychology-and-Metaphysics-Columbus]] (next) Rose says "I gave a similar talk to this in Pittsburgh and I'm going to touch on the same material."
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-Winter-Psychology-and-Metaphysics-Columbus]] 1 of 2
</div><div class="action">To resolve date.
</div><div class="status">Transcribed by Emmanuel, distributed 4/14/2009 TAT mtg. Need to add ADDENDUM
</div><div class="remarks">Page formerly titled "1980-Metaphysics-Columbus" Another 25 minutes was discovered 2015. See discussion page for possible dating of this lecture and the prior. DM cassette says "Winter" with "Fall" crossed out. Need publishing date of TAT Journal Issue 10, referred to in this talk, with article on Aborigines.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-Fall-Psychology-and-Metaphysics-Columbus]] 2 of 2
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">To resolve
</div><div class="remarks">May be the above (tape Winter not Fall). Unknown where this came from, possibly a checklist.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-0313-Are-Your-Values-Working-Pittsburgh]] have audio, missing video
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH 2nd pass,<br> Apr 2014
</div><div class="remarks">Video is mentioned in Cecy's copyright letter. Rose says he will begin to direct his talks to psychological rather than esoteric values. Rose said he was in California "this winter."
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-Spring-Hypnosis-Columbus]] (1980)
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH notes, Side 1 only, Dec 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Need to distinguish from [[1981-Spring-Hypnosis-Columbus]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-Miracles-Columbus-misnamed-dup]] Both a date error (is 1981), and location error (is Akron)
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">A duplicate.<br> Is 1981-0215, <br>see below.
</div><div class="remarks">This is a dup of [[1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-Akron-from-DME]] (below) Also see notes at [[1980-1120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Columbus]] which is the same as 1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles etc. (below)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-Betweenness-Columbus-misnamed-dup]]<br> 1 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Misnamed<br>and misdated<br>duplicate
</div><div class="remarks">Formerly [[1980-Betweenness-Columbus]], now redirected to here. This is a dup of [[1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-Akron-from-DME]] See page for details.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-Lecture-on-Betweenness-Columbus-DME-to-resolve]] 2 of 3
</div><div class="action">Need to locate tape
</div><div class="status">Published in Direct-Mind Experience
</div><div class="remarks">Also called [[1980-Psychology-of-Miracles-aka-Betweenness-Columbus-from-DME]] next. <br>See [[Direct-Mind-Experience-Table-of-Contents]] (book pages scan):
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-Psychology-of-Miracles-aka-Betweenness-Columbus-from-DME]] <br>3 of 3
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Direct-Mind Experience
</div><div class="remarks">Need to compare tape with book.
Scans of TOC here: [[Direct-Mind-Experience-Table-of-Contents]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-Oct-or-Nov-Pittsburgh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Nothing.<br>Broken <br>cassettes
</div><div class="remarks">SH original. Both cassettes broken. Have side 1 = 44 min. Side 2 have nothing. Side 3 have 21 minutes only. Tapes are detached, need repair. Horrible audio, machine far from Rose.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-1004-Hypnosis-Workshop-Coshocton-Ohio-YWCA-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Announcement discovered May 2020, Coshocton, Ohio Tribune, published 9/14/1980. Need to find article, post it to page.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-1120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Akron]] (page moved, date error) Note, is Akron, not Pittsburgh (below)
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Moved to ->><br>Page redirected
</div><div class="remarks">This is now [[1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-Akron]] <br>
Formerly: 1980-1120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Columbus (date error, location error)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1980-1129-TAT-Meeting-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Brief notes only.
</div><div class="remarks">RR remarks on Celibacy. See page for source.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-Intensive-Farm]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">First pass partial June 2015.
</div><div class="remarks">Part is readings, part is conversation. Format is similar to [[1978-Direct-Mind-Intensive-WV]] but they are different.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Pitt date error]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Moved
</div><div class="remarks">This is [[1981-1120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Pittsburgh]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-Akron]]<br> 1 of 3<br>
Formerly: 1980-1120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Akron and <br>
before that: 1980-1120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Columbus
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Some notes<br> Jan 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]]<br>need to resolve versions
</div><div class="remarks">This is the same as [[1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-Akron-from-DME]] (next) and [[1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-aka-Betweenness-Akron]] (next after) This talk has 3 dates: Some cassettes say [[1980-Betweenness-Columbus]] Jake's says 2/15/1981 and Shawn's says 11/20/1980. This is Not the same as [[1980-Psychology-of-Miracles-aka-Betweenness-Columbus-from-DME]] (also published in DME)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-Akron-from-DME]] 2 of 3. THE BOOK.
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Published in Direct-Mind Experience. See next.<br>See [[AI-Status]]<br>To resolve versions
</div><div class="remarks">Same as [[1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-aka-Betweenness-Akron]] See next. Need to compare tape 1/20/1980 and 11/28/1981 both Pittsburgh
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-aka-Betweenness-Akron]] <BR>3 of 3. THE TAPE. Same as above.
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Published in Direct-Mind Experience
</div><div class="remarks">Shawn's tape says 11/20/1980. Same as [[1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-Akron-from-DME]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-Spring-Hypnosis-Columbus]] (1981)
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Nothing yet.<br>Recording <br>info only.
</div><div class="remarks">Intro by P. Mahler.<br>Must distinguish from [[1980-Spring-Hypnosis-Columbus]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0607-Chautauqua-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Upcoming event mentioned in intro to [[1981-Spring-Hypnosis-Columbus]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0704-TAT-Meeting-Chautauqua-Bldg]] <br>1 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 18,2024 <br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">SH collection. Auto transcript at Rev.Com
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0704-TAT-Meeting-Farmhouse-full]] <br>2 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 14,2025 <br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Have several versions, the original tapes and others. SH collection. Auto transcript at Rev.Com of 2 sets, must compare these 2 and the others.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0704-TAT-Meeting-Farmhouse-redacted]] (Celibacy) Two versions, original & redacted <br> 3 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Vince Nov 2008 redacted version <br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">SH collection (original & redacted) Celibacy-sex-personal conversation - restricted distribution. Need to check and finish.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0802-Chautauqua-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only, stub has email.
</div><div class="remarks">Upcoming event mentioned in intro to [[1981-Spring-Hypnosis-Columbus]]. Alan found a note on it, see page: "You don't know your nature well enough to recognize the checker game that the entities are playing with you."
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0809-Mr-Rose-Talking-at-the-Farm]]<br>Two versions: original and edited
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 18, 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Located SH originals; former name: [[1980s-Mr-Rose-at-the-Farm]] There are 2 versions, original and edited (64 min vs. 54 min). SH has both. SN and DW are the edited versions (old name). SH started 2nd pass Jan 2014. <br>In Nov 2014 new fragment found.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0905-TAT-Meeting-Farmhouse]] <br>1 of 2 (original)
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Same as next
</div><div class="remarks">Personal conversations, funny stories, no philosophy, do not distribute
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-0905-TAT-Meeting-Farmhouse-Redacted]] <br>2 of 2 (edited)
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 18, 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Edited version of the above. Personal conversations, funny stories, no philosophy, do not distribute. SH draft in process, Oct 2014.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-1114-How-to-Run-a-Psychological-Group]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br> Dec 3, 2024 <br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Has personal conversations, do not distribute. Notes made Jan 16, 2015, have 4 versions
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-1120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Pittsburgh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Notes, updated<br> Oct 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]] Need to combine Notes with AI
</div><div class="remarks">Former name [[1981-0120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Pitt date error]]. Page has the announcement article. RA collection. White, printed cassettes. Need to compare with 1980-0120-Pittsburgh, 1981-0120-Miracles-Pitt and 1981-1128-Miracles-Pittsburgh. Do not confuse with [[1980-1120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Columbus]]
(date error and location error), which is the same as [[1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-Akron]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-1127-and-1128-Fragments-Farmhouse]] <br>1 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 18, 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Thursday Nov 26, 1981 was Thanksgiving. Same weekend as next. No Burns on this tape. SH did 22 min of first pass, Jan 2014.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-1127-or-1129-Rose-and-Burns-at-Farm]] <br>2 of 2, has Burns
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Recording, tape, calendar info only on page
</div><div class="remarks">Same weekend as prior. Some versions dated 11/27, some 11/29. Burns mentions meeting Rose at Theosophical in Pittsburgh. Tapes are a mess, different volumes.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1981-1128-Psychology-of-Miracles-Pitt-date-error]]
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Stub only
</div><div class="remarks">Date has to be wrong. Too close to TAT meeting and Thanksgiving. See notes at [[1981-1120-Psychology-of-Miracles-Pittsburgh]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-Carillon-Book-and-Audio-Tape]] (Cassette)
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Book and Commercial recording
</div><div class="remarks">Richard Rose reads his poetry. As of 2024, only the book is available on the website. https://richardroseteachings.com/shop/books/carillon/
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-03-Orlando-Florida-missing-tape]] <br> 1 of 4
</div><div class="action">?
</div><div class="status">Mention only, stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned by R in 1982 Spring TAT Meeting: "I had six lectures scheduled. I cancelled two and four were duds. ... I had plenty of coverage in Orlando but nobody showed up." Radio station. See Tampa page for correspondence.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-03-Tampa-Florida-missing-tape]] <br> 2 of 4
</div><div class="action">?
</div><div class="status">Mention only, stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned by R in 1982 Spring TAT Meeting. See discussion page for correspondence.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-0305-Man's-Spiritual-Problems-Unitarian-Church-Clearwater-missing-tape]]<br> 3 of 4
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Article/Mention, stub
</div><div class="remarks">Announcement discovered May 2020. Tampa Bay Times, St Petersburg, FL, Feb 27, 1982. Mentioned by R in 1982 Spring TAT Meeting. See Tampa page for correspondence.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-0310-Unitarian-Universalist-St-Petersburg-Florida-missing-tape]] <br>4 of 4
</div><div class="action">?
</div><div class="status">Article/Mention, stub
</div><div class="remarks">Announcement discovered May 2020. Tampa Bay Times, St Petersburg, FL, Mar 6, 1982. Mentioned by R in 1982 Spring TAT Meeting. See Tampa page for correspondence.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-Spring-Planning-Meeting-at-Farm]] <br>Might be the next, below
</div><div class="action">To resolve date
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 18, 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-0406-TAT-Meeting-Farmhouse-Wing]] <br>1 of 4
</div><div class="action">To resolve date
</div><div class="status">--
</div><div class="remarks">Is not [[1982-Spring-Intensive-at-Farm]] below. TAT meeting is [[1982-0417-Spring-TAT-Mtg-Rose-and-Burns]], below.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-0417-Farm]] <br>2 of 4
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">--
</div><div class="remarks">Begins with ectoplasm. One file 56 kbps GH. 40:58. Is not [[1982-Spring-Intensive-at-Farm]] misnamed
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-Spring-Intensive-at-Farm]] This tape has Burns<br> 3 of 4
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">First pass in process Aug 12, 2024
</div><div class="remarks">Opens like a TAT meeting but it's an intensive. Burns arrives at dm2-12:15. Need to compare with [[1982-0417-Farm]]. Is not [[1982-0406-TAT-Meeting-Farmhouse-Wing]] above. Is not [[1982-0417-Spring-TAT-Mtg-Rose-and-Burns]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-0417-Spring-TAT-Mtg-Rose-and-Burns]] <br>4 of 4
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">--
</div><div class="remarks">Could be same as [[1982-Spring-Intensive-at-Farm]] misnamed
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-05-Conversation-Farmhouse]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 18, 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">SH collection, red cassette, one side only. Did notes for first 8 minutes. Personal conversations, family stories, do not distribute. Length only 22 min.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-0612-Mr-Rose-at-Farmhouse]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 18, 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">SH tape, personal conversations, 35 minutes, argument over politics with new member, 35 min.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-0619-Chautauqua-Farm-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Article only
</div><div class="remarks">Various speakers. See page for news article on the event from Post-Gazette
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-0807-A-Weekend-With-Richard-Rose-Farm-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Article only, <br>Stub
</div><div class="remarks">Announced in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette article about the June Chautauqua (above)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-11-Fall-TAT-Meeting-Farm]] <br>1 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Nothing yet, <br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">DM collection. To review and compare with the book (2 of 2)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1982-11-Points-of-Reference-from-DME]] <br> 2 of 2
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Published in Direct-Mind Experience
</div><div class="remarks">Book says: From a Discussion at an Informal TAT Meeting in West Virginia, November 1982. Probably from [[1982-11-Fall-TAT-Meeting-Farm]] (1 of 2) from D. Mettle collection. Need to verify.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0323-Is-the-Game-of-Life-Fixed-Synod-Hall-Oakland-PA]] [Missing the video]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">First pass started June 24, 2015.<br> About 1/3 done.
</div><div class="remarks">A video was made of this lecture. Title, venue from newspaper article. Title formerly was "Lecture-of-Questions-Pittsburgh"
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0603-Boulder-Colorado-commercial-recording]] 1 of 2
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Commercial CD<br> for next entry
</div><div class="remarks">See page for CD availability. Transcription at [[1983-0603-First-Know-Thyself-Boulder-Colorado]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0603-First-Know-Thyself-Boulder-Colorado]]<br>2 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass in process Feb 2015
</div><div class="remarks">This is a fragment, 45 min only, all 3 versions the same, including Rose Pub commercial CD. Title corresponds to a poster R refers to in the lecture.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0604-Seminar-Boulder-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only, <br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned side 1 min. 14 of [[1983-0603-First-Know-Thyself-Boulder-Colorado]] An intensive based on Lecture of Questions.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0610-First-Know-Thyself-Denver]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed<br> July 16, 2015
</div><div class="remarks">Casari organized, gave intro
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0611-Seminar-Denver-canceled]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Event canceled
</div><div class="remarks">Seminar was announced in [[1983-0610-First-Know-Thyself-Denver]] (side 4) but it was canceled.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0619-June-Chautauqua-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>Stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mr R announces this on side dw3 of [[1983-0323-Is-the-Game-of-Life-Fixed-Synod-Hall-Oakland-PA]] (formerly known as L of Q Pittsburgh) The seminar is to be on brain chemistry.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0626-Are-We-Complete]]<br> possibly Akron (Springfield Twp Hall, see page)
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Transcribed by Jake. SearchWithin.Org<br>See [[AI-Status]] Need to verify
</div><div class="remarks">"Farm is 2 1/2 hours from here." To do: use auto-trans to check existing.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[Esoteric-Library-sides-10-11-12]] <br>1 of 5<br>1983-08-August Intensive or Chautauqua<br>Among several Esoteric Library to resolve
</div><div class="action">Need to identify
</div><div class="status">SH started <br>Jan 24, 2014
</div><div class="remarks">Side 10 = tape 5B. Side 11 = tape 6A. Side 12 = tape 6B. (This is 1983)<br>See [[Esoteric-Library-Recording-Notes]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0806-August-Chautauqua-Unedited]] <br>2 of 5
</div><div class="action">To <br>compare. See next 3
</div><div class="status">Stub
</div><div class="remarks">This is the unedited version of the tape - names of individuals are mentioned - Edited version (see next) of audio is from Esoteric Library Vol 4 (side 7).
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0806-August-Chautauqua-edited-tape]] Esoteric Library vol 4 (side 7) <br>3 of 5
</div><div class="action">To <br>compare. See prior and next
</div><div class="status">Stub
</div><div class="remarks">This is the edited version of the tape and is in Esoteric Library Vol 4 (side 7). See category Esoteric Library and [[Esoteric-Library-Recording-Notes]]. Need to compare with the unedited tape [[1983-0806-August-Chautauqua-Unedited]] and the version published in Direct-Mind Experience [[1983-0806-August-Chautauqua-from-DME]].
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0806-August-Chautauqua-from-DME]] <br>4 of 5: The Book scan.
</div><div class="action">See prior and next
</div><div class="status">Published in DM Experience.
</div><div class="remarks">This is an edited version. Need to compare with the other three.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1983-0806-August-Chautauqua-from-Html]] <br>5 of 5: The Html version, not the book scan.
</div><div class="action">See the prior three
</div><div class="status">Published in DM Experience.
</div><div class="remarks">This is a more expanded version than the book. Audio is from Esoteric Library, vol 4, side 7. Has been partially compared (see page) with that, see notes on page.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1984-0418-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Oakland-PA]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">First pass Auto-AI Sep 22, 2025. See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">High quality recording. See newspaper announcement on page. First of 2 in PA, was Friday evening. Second was the following Saturday.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1984-0426-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Irwin-PA]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">TAT Forum. Only part 1 was published.
</div><div class="remarks">Part 1 only is published in TAT Forum Dec 2003. For the remainder have notes only.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1984-0428-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Akron]] missing video
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">TAT Forum<br>SearchWithin.Org
</div><div class="remarks">Full talk in TAT Forum in 6 parts monthly beginning Jan 2004: http://tatfoundation.org/forum2004-01.htm#1 Ends in June 2004: http://tatfoundation.org/forum2004-06.htm#1 The video is mentioned in Cecy's video copyright latter.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1984-0502-Peace-of-Mind-Success-Without-Regret-commercial-recording]] Columbus, 1 of 2
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">Commercial CD <br>for next entry
</div><div class="remarks">Double CD set - This is the May 2, 1984 lecture in Columbus (next)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1984-0502-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Columbus]] Columbus, 2 of 2
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Extensive notes, <br> Feb 2015
</div><div class="remarks">Original MJ file name "Happiness". Same lecture as commercial recording (previous)
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1984-0506-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Cleveland]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass in process SH, Jan 2012. Candidate for Auto-AI.<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Sandy Started - 7 pages single spaced. Inventory, MJ, PS and Gary date is 5/2 (need to verify against prior). Ayers date is 5/11, typed label
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1984-Direct-Mind-Intensive-Farm-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Gary Harmon announces this in intro to [[1984-0428-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Akron]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1985-0413-TAT-Meeting-WV]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st Pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 18, 2024<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">a.k.a. [[1985-0413-TAT-Meeting-with-Rose]]. Raw language, do not distribute. Chit chat & funny stories at TAT meeting. No philosophy. Notes Dec. 2011
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[Esoteric-Library-Recording-Notes]]
<wbr>August Intensives of 1983 and 1985
<br>Among several Esoteric Library to resolve<br>1 of 3. Also see 1983 above.
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1983 and 1985<br>6 tapes x 2 sides <br>each
</div><div class="remarks">See next: [[1985-08-August-Intensive-edited]] and [[1983-0806-August-Chautauqua-edited-tape]] and 1985 Aug Chautauqua [[1985-08-August-Intensive-edited]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1985-08-August-Intensive-edited]]<br>Among several Esoteric Library to resolve<br>2 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH a few notes<br> Jan 24, 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]] candidate
</div><div class="remarks">aka Esoteric Library vols 1, 2, 3 (sides 1-6). <br>See [[Esoteric-Library-Recording-Notes]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1985-08-August-Intensive-uncut]]<br>3 of 3
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Notes made by Augie Monge in doc files
</div><div class="remarks">Formerly: August Chautauqua
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1985-10-Theosophical-Society-Miami]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed<br> Aug. 30, 2011
</div><div class="remarks">See Discussion page for calendar and emails re events in Miami/South Florida
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1985-1015-Public-TV-Interview-Miami]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Notes only,<br> Oct. 2014
</div><div class="remarks">What-do-you-know-for-sure is on the same tape
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1985-1102-What-Do-You-Know-For-Sure-Miami]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Notes only,<br> Oct. 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]] Candidate
</div><div class="remarks">TV interview is on the same tape
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1985-1103-Florida-Society-for-Psychical-Research-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br> stub
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in [[1985-10-Theosophical-Society-Miami]]. Possibly canceled.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1986-0212-Zen-Is-Action-Columbus-page-moved]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Moved
</div><div class="remarks">Correct date is [[1989-0212-Zen-Is-Action-Columbus]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1986-0307-Are-You-a-Robot-Baltimore]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Published on SearchWithin.Org
</div><div class="remarks">Page needs subheadings. Townsend State University, Baltimore
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1986-Spring-Direct-Mind-Hypnosis]] Columbus
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Nothing yet, <br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Hypnosis talk and demonstration. Columbus (DM tapes). Audio poor, DM version noisy but audible.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1986-08-Esoteric-Library-vol-6-date-error]]<br>This is Aug 1983 <br>Among several Esoteric Library to resolve
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Date error,<br>moved
</div><div class="remarks">See notes for Esoteric Library vols 1-6.<br> See [[Esoteric-Library-Recording-Notes]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1987-0417-Spiritual-and-Psychological-Teachings-Farm]]<br> missing video
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Commercial recording,<br> Rose Pub.
</div><div class="remarks">"Farmhouse Group Meeting, 2 DVD Set. Cecy's copyright letter.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1987-0607-Chautauqua-WV]] <br>missing video
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Notes only,<br> Jan. 2014
</div><div class="remarks">Augie Monge sent file 1, File 2 is marked "garbled". Have photos of video being made, but no video.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1988-0217-Hypnosis-Lecture-Demonstration-Akron]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed 11/13/2009
</div><div class="remarks">Iillustrates R's method. Must hear tape for voice and mood he creates.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1989-0212-Zen-Is-Action-Columbus]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">TAT Forum 2015
</div><div class="remarks">Published complete in six parts for Forum beginning Feb. 2015 and ending July 2015.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1989-0902-Three-Books-of-the-Absolute-TAT-Mtg]] DVD (Sep)
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Correspondence<br>on page
</div><div class="remarks">Date conflict? Need to compare DVD from PC with audio. DVD has this date, audio is dated 1989-1126 as below. There is video of the Q&A after Rose reads Three Books. Reading plus discussion of energy, mind-dimension.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1989-1126-Three-Books-of-the-Absolute-TAT-Mtg]] (Nov)
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Notes only<br> Nov. 2008,<br> update Oct. 2014
</div><div class="remarks">There is video of the Q&A after Rose reads Three Books. Reading plus discussion of energy, mind-dimension.
</div></div>

</div>

<h2 class="year">
1990s</h2>

<div class="recordings-section">

<div class="header">
<div class="recording">Recording
</div><div class="action">Action
</div><div class="status">Status
</div><div class="remarks">Remarks
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1990-0215-Are-You-A-Robot-Ohio-State]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Extensive notes, update Feb. 2015. <br>See [[AI-Status]] Candidate
</div><div class="remarks">a.k.a. An Evening with Richard Rose. VIDEO was recorded - need. [side 3 min 22 R mentions cameras]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1990-0503-What-Is-Thought-Ohio-State]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Notes only,<br> update Oct. 2014
</div><div class="remarks">--
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1991-Unitarian-Church-Raleigh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH 2nd pass, <br>in process<br> Nov. 2014
</div><div class="remarks">LOQ. Lots of biographical details.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1991-0322-Hypnosis-Demonstration-Pittsburgh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Notes only.
</div><div class="remarks">One 60 minute cassette (fragment). Tape ends abruptly. Need to locate the rest.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1991-0413-TAT-Weekend-Farm-Wing]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Recording notes only
</div><div class="remarks">Bart's collection. 4 x 60, numbered X, Y, Z and Unnumbered
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1991-0601-Evening-of-Hypnosis-At-Farm]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Notes only,<br> update Oct. 2014<br>See [[AI-Status]] Candidate
</div><div class="remarks">Tape set also has chiropractic demo by Bruce
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1991-0831-TAT-Weekend-WV]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Stub, recording info only
</div><div class="remarks">Rose talking about psychological groups, early work at the farm.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1991-1006-Augies-Apartment-Raleigh]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed<br> June 5, 2015
</div><div class="remarks">This was videotaped - portions are in Mr Rose video
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1991-1007-What-Is-Enlightenment-Raleigh]] <br> [DVD-video] 1991
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Auto-AI rev.com on Nov 20, 2025
</div><div class="remarks">Mentioned in [[1991-1006-Augies-Apartment-Raleigh]]. This was a videotape, was ripped to DVD, and vob files ripped to mp3. Of 4 files, the 4th is blank.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1992-0317-Q-and-A-SKS-Chapel-Hill-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Mention only,<br>stub.
</div><div class="remarks">Announcement discovered May 2020. Need to post announcement.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1992-0326-Truth-Lies-Ultimate-Reality-Pitt]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH distributed<br> Feb 7, 2013
</div><div class="remarks">At Soldiers and Sailors - Pittsburgh. 8 min intro by Alan Fitzpatrick.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1992-0402-Truth-Lies-Ultimate-Reality-Duquesne]] Pittsburgh
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">In process SH, <br> Feb 2013
</div><div class="remarks">14 min intro by Casari. LOQ
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1992-1013-Define-the-Self-Pittsburgh-Borders-missing]] video
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Letter only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Need a copy of this video. This is from Cecy's copyright letter of 1/29/2007. There are 14 videos on that list.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1992-1112-The-Absolute-Experience-Zen-Pitt-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Article,<br> correspondence <br>only
</div><div class="remarks">Missing tape. See Discussion page.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1993-0316-NCSU-Raleigh-Zen-Questions-missing-tape]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Article only,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Announcement discovered May 2020, News and Observer, Raleigh Sun 3/14/93. Title of lecture "Zen Questions"
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1993-0330-NC-State-University-Raleigh-March]] <br>[DVD-video] March 1993
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Email chain regarding videos, Jan 2012
</div><div class="remarks">Have Video. Need audio mp3 or extract from video.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1993-0331-Augies-Apartment-Raleigh-1993]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Some notes, 4 sides, minimal<br>See [[AI-Status]] Candidate
</div><div class="remarks">This is different from [[1991-1006-Augies-Apartment-Raleigh]], which was transcribed an distributed.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1993-0401-Chapel-Hill-NC]] <br>[DVD-video] April 1993
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Email chain regarding videos, Jan 2012
</div><div class="remarks">Have Video. Need audio mp3 or extract from video.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1993-1101-NC-State-University-Raleigh-November]] <br>[DVD-video] November 1, 1993
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Email chain regarding videos, Jan 2012<br>See [[AI-Status]] Candidate
</div><div class="remarks">Have Video. Need audio mp3 or extract from video.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1993-1103-NCSU-Chapel-Hill-video]] <br>[DVD-video] November 3, 1993
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Email chain regarding videos, Jan 2012
</div><div class="remarks">Have Video. Need audio mp3 or extract from video.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1993-Mr-Rose-Video-DVD-commercial-recording]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Have OCR scan<br> of 5 pages of typed notes
</div><div class="remarks">Commercial video. Need to extract audio mp3 from video. Also see [[1993-1103-NCSU-Chapel-Hill-video]]. There is overlap.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1994-0702-TAT-Meeting-WV]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">SH notes, 14 pages
</div><div class="remarks">R’s voice is a little slurred but thinking is still precise.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1995-0415-TAT-Weekend-WV]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Nothing yet,<br>stub
</div><div class="remarks">Spreadsheet says there's a copy from Bart -- but don't have mp3. Try to locate tape.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1995-0811-RR-and-Shawn-in-McMechen-WV]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 18, 2024. Must wait until Jan 6 to hear, am over 1200 min limit.<br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Conversation with Shawn, Personal conversations and Philosophy. sh did a few notes
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[1995-Nov-Dec-RR-Reminisces-Reads-Three-Books]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">1st pass Auto-AI<br>Dec 18, 2024. <br>See [[AI-Status]]
</div><div class="remarks">Rose reading Three Books -- on 11/13, then on 12/15. Have a few notes. Not available at Rev.Com until Jan 6, 2025, minutes for December are used up.
</div></div>

</div>

<h2 class="year">
Undated</h2>

<div class="recordings-section">

<div class="header">
<div class="recording">Recording
</div><div class="action">Action
</div><div class="status">Status
</div><div class="remarks">Remarks
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[Decision-Determination-Discrimination-unknown-lecture-notes]]<br>Notes, not a recording
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Published<br> TAT Forum<br> Feb 2016
</div><div class="remarks">Notes found by Art. Unknown date, place, or creator of the notes.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Lecture-of-Questions]]
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">Stub
</div><div class="remarks">Audio quality horrible. MJ collection. To resolve/identify.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Miscellaneous-Columbus-4-minutes]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Stub
</div><div class="remarks">MJ version is a poor quality version of a few minutes of Rose intro to talk by Frank Mascara. DM version is good quality.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Rose-Conversation-Group-WV-elderly]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Stub
</div><div class="remarks">DM collection. At farm, can hear hum. Ticknor, Cergol, Al Fitzpatrick, others; possibly a visit from NC maybe early or mid 1990s
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Rose-Unknown-After-Lecture]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Stub
</div><div class="remarks">DM collection. Tape runs fast, voice high pitch
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Sleep]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Stub
</div><div class="remarks">SN collection - has same audio feed as one of the intensives
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-WCUE-Interview-Akron]]<br />  and [[unknown-talk-rest-of-WCUE]]
</div><div class="action">To resolve
</div><div class="status">SH 1st pass<br> Jan 11, 2015 (both sides)
</div><div class="remarks">Interview is first 22 minutes. Unknown talk on rest of side 1, and on side 2. May not be same on 1 and 2.
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Zen-and-Common-Sense-mj-version]] now identified, moved to ZCS directory
</div><div class="action">
</div><div class="status">To consolidate<br>stub with page
</div><div class="remarks">This is [[1977-0428-Zen-and-Common-Sense-KSU]]
</div></div>

<h2 class="year">
Undated - Identified</h2>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Fragment-I-Bart's-collection.]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">--
</div><div class="remarks">This is [[1978-1023-Nostalgia-and-Dreams-Case-Western]] beginning at minute 31
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Fragment-II-SN-collection]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">
</div><div class="remarks">This is [[1976-Pittsburgh]] Published as Pittsburgh PA 1976 Lecture on SearchWithin.Org
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Fragment-III-SN-collection]]
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</div><div class="remarks">This (side 1 of "Frag III and IV") is [[1975-0227-Carnegie-Mellon-Q-and-A-Pittsburgh]]
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<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Fragment-IV-SN-collection]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">--
</div><div class="remarks">This (side 2 of "Frag III and IV") is [[1978-1023-Nostalgia-and-Dreams-Case-Western]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Intensive-Questions-and-Readings]]
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</div><div class="status">--
</div><div class="remarks">This is a duplicate of [[1978-Direct-Mind-Intensive-WV]] so don't use
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Man-As-A-Liar-Univ-Pitt-page-moved]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">--
</div><div class="remarks">This is [[1975-Man-As-A-Liar-University-of-Pittsburgh]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Peace-of-Mind-Cleveland]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">--
</div><div class="remarks">This is a dup of [[1984-0506-Peace-of-Mind-in-Spite-of-Success-Cleveland]] so don't use
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Psychology-of-the-Observer]]
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">
</div><div class="remarks">Rob Ayres collection. Same as commercial recording/book This is [[1977-1012-Psychology-of-the-Observer-commercial-recording]]
</div></div>

<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Rose-Unknown-Meeting]]<br>  a.k.a. [[undated-Meeting-unknown-Location]]<br>AI transcript copied to [[1975-Akron-to-resolve]], the file name willchange when resolved.
</div><div class="action">--
</div><div class="status">Auto-AI rev.com<br>June 22, 2025
</div><div class="remarks">DM and MJ collections. Tape says 'Meeting" but might be lecture with a lot of Q&A.   Side 1 is the missing first file of [[1975-Akron-to-resolve]].* Side 2 is same as gh2 and sh1 (Side A)<br>* UNLESS files 1 and 2 are from different lectures.
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<div class="table-row">
<div class="recording">[[undated-Unknown-Q-and-A]]
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</div><div class="remarks">DM collection. This is [[1974-Meeting-Kent-State-Q-and-A-only]]
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</tbody>
</table>

1993-0331-Augies-Apartment-Raleigh

2026-01-11T21:31:47Z

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{{Page_header}}
[[Category:1990s]]
[[Category:Informal Talks]]
[[Category:North Carolina]]
[[Category:Biographical]]
<div id="widthlimiter">
== Data Template ==


{{Recording Data
|record-date = March 31, 1993
|location = Raleigh, NC - Augie's apartment
|number-tapes = 2 cassettes
Tape 1 (side 1 = 46 minutes; side 2 = 48 minutes)
Tape 2 (side 3 = 32 minutes; side 4 = 24 minutes)

|source =
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s = 4
|total-time =
|transcription-status =
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf =
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks =
|audio-quality = Muddy. Sides 3 & 4 have a high whine, like sound of machinery, possibly result of copying the tape (i.e., clean version may exist).
|who-is-present = A. Turak, B, Cergol, B Marshall, M. Casari
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

== Notes ==

Get email from Casari

Create talk page

RR sheds light on aspects of his experience.

== File 1 ==

46 minutes. Anecdotes regarding experience in Seattle. A few ribald stories. Jokes. Periods of silence. The machinery of the mind acts to close off the search. I feel a sense of unreality regarding this dimension. People quiz RR about how he was affected by his experience. Ramana Maharshi “bucket in well“ analogy. More anecdotes about experience.

== File 2 ==

48 minutes. Responds to more questions about experience and aftermath. “Engineered for my benefit” and “No welcoming committee” and “Somehow I created images [in the experience]”.Writing Three Books of the Absolute. Never went back to Seattle. Unusual psychic cloud around Seattle – insanity and alcoholism. Poem about apple tree in Carillon. Spirituality is individual. All people are animals. Nuns in the convent in RR’s youth. Concepts about God. Operating on hunches. Love. If you want to understand psychology, live on a farm..You can’t properly explain an illusion because an illusion is false, but you can get a feel for it. We don’t know where we came from. Before birth a baby is asleep; suddenly wakes up to this lifestyle. You can’t prove nothingness. If you become more real, it’s hard to explain it to someone living with preconceptions.

== File 3 ==

32 minutes. Belief: Say you want to defend yourself so you learn judo. You use it, you don’t “believe in” it. Zen should be the same way. Look under every rock. When you reach a dead end look for something else. If you don’t seek you don’t move. “I have never claimed to be a Zen master.” Wisdom sciences from the East are converted to money rackets in the West. My objective is to get a person through this mental quandary. But I did have a Zen teacher. How the Albigen system can be described as: “Seek and you shall find” plus other elements he enumerates. I don’t believe in selling intangibles. People don’t want the truth, they want fairy tales. Don Juan. Channeling. Lack of intuition. His is sad, humanity stumbling around looking for someone to trust. You can’t reach spiritual truth by accepting social systems designed to enforce conformity.

== File 4 ==

24 minutes. Perseverance is necessary and you discover ways and means. Prayer. Education system louses people up. They’re trying to create manageable people. Social trends. Anecdote about a doctor’s appointment, medical practices, extra tests, bureaucrats, driving costs up.
== End ==
</div>

1983-0806-August-Chautauqua-from-DME

2026-01-11T21:30:52Z

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{{Page header}}
[[Category:1980s]]
[[Category:Page Needs Work]]
[[Category:Published]]
[[Category:Direct-Mind Experience]]
[[Category:Chautauqua]]
[[Category:Esoteric Library]]
[[Category:Media]]
[[Category:Books]]

<div id="widthlimiter">
== Data Template ==



The transcription formerly on this page was moved to [[1983-0806-August-Chautauqua-from-Html]] on Mar 27, 2024 because it was from the Html version.

{{Recording Data
|record-date = August 6, 1983
|location = Farm
|number-tapes = Have transcription but no audio file. Update: AUDIO is from Esoteric Library, vol 4
|source =
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s =
|total-time =
|transcription-status = This page is in D-M Exper but also have html version -- Need to compare versions.
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf =
|published-book = Direct-Mind Experience
|published-website =
|remarks = Needs subheaders
|audio-quality =
|who-is-present = Many - identified by name in the html version
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

== Notes ==

This page is for the scan of chapter in D-M Experience but also have html version -- need to compare.

People are identified by name in the html version transcription.

Have transcription (i.e., the html version) but no audio file. Update: AUDIO is from Esoteric Library, vol 4.

SIDE 1 = Esoteric Library Vol 4 side A

Transcription is pretty much verbatim until about min 35 through min 40 - story about sister in law.

SIDE 2 = Esoteric Library Vol 4 side B

From the section header "Setup for questioning"

Newspaper announcement: Article-1983-0801, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette: Aug-6-7 "Direct-Mind-Science"

[[File:Article-1983-0801-seminar-Aug-6-7-Direct-Mind-Science.jpg|300px|none]]

=== Media ===
Category "Media" is used because of a long mention by Rose of how he was interviewed for a Pittsburgh newspaper.

== Transcription ==

=== NEED TO ADD BOOK SCAN ===
AUGUST CHAUTAUQUA

West Virginia August 6, 1983

== Footnotes ==

== END ==
</div>

1983-0603-Boulder-Colorado-commercial-recording

2026-01-11T21:30:10Z

Dmadmin: Remove cat private

{{Page header}}
[[Category:1980s]]
[[Category:Colorado]]
[[Category:Commercial Disk]]
[[Category:Fragments]]
<div id="widthlimiter">

== Notes ==
Rose remarks on the title 'First Know Thyself' on the lecture poster.

All known versions including this are 45 min. long, so it's a fragment

== CD Cover ==
Available from Richard Rose Teachings: https://richardroseteachings.com/audio-video/

[[File:RR-CD-cover-Boulder-Colorado-1983.jpg|none]]

Transcript is at: [[1983-0603-First-Know-Thyself-Boulder-Colorado]]

== end ==
</div>

1982-11-Points-of-Reference-from-DME

2026-01-11T21:03:09Z

Dmadmin: Remove cat Private

{{Page_header}}
[[Category:Published]]
[[Category:Direct-Mind Experience]]
[[Category:Page Needs Work]]
[[Category:Books]]
[[Category:Direct-Mind Experience]]
<div id="widthlimiter">

== Notes ==

This is from the html of Direct-Mind Experience.

== Text ==

POINTS OF REFERENCE

From a Discussion at an Informal TAT Meeting in West Virginia

November 1982

It has occurred to me that people write books and create all sorts of philosophies and mental sciences, like psychology, and never bother to go back to a basic point of reference. And the solitary seeker who is interested in following some meditational process, is advised to "go within." But you see, those words are not sufficient. How do you go within if you do not know where "within" is? How do you go within if you do not know who is going "within?" Which train are you going to catch? Which procedure are you going to use?

We plow into many disciplines blindly. We get into books without bothering to decide beforehand our point of reference for sanity, -- our point of reference for meaning.

We do not all have the same point of reference, and I think that this unexpected difference is depicted in the biblical story of the Tower of Babel. People lost their ability to communicate when they lost a common point of reference. And this is the reason for the lack of harmony among philosophers and among different sects or schools of metaphysical endeavor.

They cannot get together because they do not have a common point of reference, they don't even have a point of reference for their private use. An instance to better understand this is the occurrence of a nightmare. This nightmare is so damned real you are hoping that it is a nightmare, in other words you realize that you are in a nightmare and you are stuck there and you may say "I hope that I am dreaming." Why?... because your whole point of reference has shifted and you are in another world, you are in another paradigm, and the definitions that you had before, the morals and mores, -- friendships... and everything else, do not apply now. They are not there, they are impossible to attain, they are impossible to relate to. Then you say "Oh in a while, I'll wake up and that will be my point of reference, -- being awake." No, you can lose your point of reference while awake. If they are marching you down the aisle to the gas chamber you are going to have a daylight nightmare and you will have confusion because of the simple fact that you do not have a point of reference, that you will not have a true value of consciousness, life or death, -- which we procrastinated defining all through our life. I think I should have brought this up years ago, that unless you have some point from which you build your entire system of thinking, -- then you accept a system of thinking. (I don't think we build one as much as we accept one.) You accept and then you have to correct, and correct and correct. At a recent meeting we popped the question and went around the room and asked, "What do you think the point of reference is?" And of course the final answer was the self, the self was the point of reference, and then you have to go back to the self and then define what you think the self is. But you can't take -- as a fundamentalist -- take the Bible and make it the point of reference. You can't take anything that I have written and make it a point of reference. You can't even take what mother tells you. When I found out that my mother had lied to me about Santa Claus, I doubted her advice on theology. It was a healthy system of doubting, that I got into because previously I was basing my point of reference for absolute truth upon emotions. Because my mother had breasts, and fed me off those breasts, she could do no wrong. Children are inclined to accept everything that she says, and they carry that over sometimes into adulthood.

We have the chart on the evolution of energy. It started off as showing food as a source of energy, and then the body transmuted the food. This was a chain of function. This was the concept of transmutation: the body transmuted it into the flesh, -- the fat, muscle, bone, and glands. But then we had some of the transmutation of this energy going into a neural system, as through education. By inhibiting the activity of the body, by forcing it to sit in a classroom, -- it has to think of something and eventually it will think of what is on the blackboard. So the person becomes educated, he transmutes energy into another form of power. Well, when I first realized what was happening I had no knowledge of body-chemistry, but recently they have come up with the chemistry that does occur there, and what happens is, -- the body produces the substances serotonin, prostaglandins, and other neurotransmitters. I noticed that people who were able to achieve a lot were people that were able to inhibit their sexual activity, while they were studying. And also some athletes did this, -- inhibited their sexual activity for the purpose of strength. And I came to the conclusion that the Kundalini of the oriental was the equivalent of the transmutation of energy into neural energy. It does not come from the muscles, it doesn't come from food in the bloodstream, it comes from the rechanneling of glandular energy. So that we presume that if a person was a eunuch, he wouldn't be too contemplative or dynamic. I presume that he would be like a steer. A steer is a very placid creature, -- it doesn't worry too much about anything.

I recently ran into this information that prostaglandins are produced in the seminal vesicles which produce 400 tunes more than any other part of the body.

Which corroborates my idea in that if you use your testicles too intensely in practice or procreation, you are not going to produce as much capacity for thinking, and your education comes to an end about the time that you get married. You will not have any great inspirational developments in your thinking processes, and also I believe that these events trigger what I call the death gene. I think that the death gene is activated simultaneously with some sexual operation, it might not just be sex, it may be pregnancy, or the causing of pregnancy. But I believe that the human being is programmed to age. We age according to schedule, and the cornstalk begins to die as soon as the grain is fertilized. The pollen fertilizes the grain and immediately the stalk begins to dry up. I believe that consequently if we know this, -- if we realized that there are two directions that people can take.... one is taken from the psychological school that decrees that we are nothing but a body, and decrees that by biochemistry we are going to discover this fact, -- that we are just a reacting robot. The other concept or extreme attitude is that we are operating strictly according to the laws of God, or some divine creature and if He does not like what is going on he will change it. So we have to take God's behavior into our behavior-planning. So we get into infinite religions and books on guessing, guessing on what might be... tuning the intuition in on something that might be mysterious, instead of going according to facts. But I think that there could be a marriage of the two, -- both facts and intuition. But I think that when you get to the point of reference, the point of reference implies something... in other words instead of proceeding with too many purposeful edicts for humanity, it is better to first find out the point of reference, -- go for the point of reference. Of course, at the same moment that you find a point of reference you find the solution. Because it goes back to the self. If you want immortality you have to say who or what is going to be immortal. I quoted something last night that if a man forgets his infancy before his manhood is upon him, what shall we remember hence. So what am I going to remember afterwards if I am going to base it upon the physical memory? If you don't find yourself you are going to have a mistaken memory, and we will all have a different phony picture of ourselves. The idea behind that lecture (Psychology of Miracles) was that you start with your self, you start with your physical self. But as soon as you start examining that which causes your thinking, then you immediately get into a tremendously abstract or subjective self. For instance let us examine the realm of neural quantum energy. (I keep using the word quantum energy, mental quantum energy, with which you can master a book or move salt and pepper shakers. You can twist the spoon, etc.) The mental quantum energy is capable of projecting back into the physical dimension and causing effects in the physical. This explains some incidents of healing. You can take this higher energy and project it back and rebuild the physical body of another person, and sometimes your own. But this becomes a downward vector, it becomes a downward spending of the energy. It is advisable to keep the old carcass going as long as possible but the main thing is to find the self, to find out who is surviving, if there is a surviving. So you develop what I call a neural quantum, a person with this neural quantum energy has the ability to find wisdom as well as health.

Up until now I have tried to limit my talking to facts... possibly attempting to illustrate from a point of reasoning. But we now approach the faculty of Between-ness. Between-ness is difficult to define and the mechanics of the miracles that result from the exercise of the faculty are even harder to explain.

People who read ESP cards, and come up with a score over fifty are establishing a fact about their ability to predict, and doing it in a scientific manner. If a person can predict something, scoring over fifty percent, the feat is no longer an accident or a coincidence.

However the mechanics of the feat are hard to explain, -- even for the operator. So that is like saying that we have found a Law, and the Law tells us that such operators can perceive things beyond the range of his vision, or that they can cause things to happen. The latter ability would imply that they might be creating the card's appearance rather than reading it.

If this sounds absurd, then let us note the story of Jesus and the blind man. John Ch. 9. Jesus claimed that the man had been made blind by God, so that Jesus could heal him. This explanation put Christ in the role of a fatalist or believer in a predestined event, in which Christ was a seer or prophet, but not a healer. God did the changing, -- not Christ. Yet when He was slow in providing the wine for the bridal party (in response to a request from his mother), He noted that there was a more propitious time coming up later. This would imply that He possessed a degree of expertise in Between-ness.

Joseph Sadony of Michigan was able to produce lightning. Part of his preparation involved waiting, being attentive to some inner voice, and then counting to three. This is Between-ness at its best. Counting to three is not the formula incidentally. That was Sadony's timing himself to the coming event. That little rubric in itself was a magical gesture of Between-ness to aid the mammoth display of Between-ness, or appearance of lightning.

Incidentally most of Christ's miracles do not come under the category of Between-ness. Most bore signs of being actually an energy transfer. For instance in the case of the woman who was healed by touching His garment... Christ knew that He had healed someone although He did not see who touched His garment. He felt the "virtue" leave Him. Today this manner of healing would be called zapping. A definite quantum is lost. Norbu Chen admits that his healings are done the same way, and that they are (or were) so depleting that he expected to be burned out in a few years. I have heard the comment that Jesus would have been prematurely aged, had He not been killed when He was, and this due to His energy-loss from healings.

Zapping is an expensive method for the operator. The art of prediction, and that of Between-ness do not deplete the operator. Getting back to discussion of the validity of miracles such as prophesy or Between-ness there is in both a scientific basis for their right to be defined as existing, or real. Science is basically, prediction and proof. At least those are the factors which distinguish guessing or opinion from valid relative knowledge. The same factors can decide whether subjective sciences, sociological sciences, and theology can or should be considered Real, or non-dogmatic and worthy of any authoritative role in society.

When Sadony predicted that he could cause it to lightning, or could predict within the third count that lightning would strike, and demonstrated his causing or synchronization with the event, then the two scientific factors had been supplied.

On the other hand when Thomas Aquinas attempted to prove the existence of God he did not prove it scientifically despite his use of an irregular syllogism. The syllogism was: 1) There is motion in the Universe. 2) All motion requires a mover. 3) Ergo, only God could move the Universe.

Ergos prove nothing here. Syllogisms of this sort are only suggestions. We could split a few hairs here and note: 1) That motion does not require an intelligent mover in every instance. Things are moved by the wind, by avalanches and floods. 2) If there is an acknowledged need for intellectual planning, creating and supervision in maintenance, then it could well be a large number of intelligences, not a single one. 3) The whole appearance of motion may be an illusion in space-time.

We come once more to a very important means of deciding the definition of things, and the explanation of causes for phenomena. That is a proper point of reference.

What evaluates the motion of the universe, or gives us the most scientific explanation of the Indian Rope Trick? In both cases the point of reference is Reality as validated by the senses. We make a possible error in always believing that which our senses bring to us.

It is not so good that we use public acceptance of explanations for phenomena as a point of reference. It is not good to use belief as a point of reference. At other times I have pointed out the unreliability of the senses, but I think I failed to point out that the awareness of the true nature of a hologram, mirage, and optical inadequacies presents us with the possibility that everything that we see, or think that we see, must be qualified. We must take another look. And to take another look we have to find another sense.

This other sense cannot be a physical (sensory) rendition of the physical environment. It has to be either a perfected intuition, a divine revelation or some other means of interpreting the paradigm which manifestly envelops us.

And we cannot avoid studying the mental processes, if we really wish to approach Reality. It is not enough to just take note of the apparent unreliability of the sense-organs.

I explained in the Psychology of the Observer that the mind has six types of vision. Each sensory percept inspires a vision, preceded by a projection-type of reaction. The rays that actually carry our chief contact with the universe, do not register accurately that which is out there. The retinal rods can only carry incoming colors according to the limited code of those rods.

I mentioned six types of mental visions. We do not see things. The mind sees visions which it has to perpetually purify with internal scrutiny, because we now know that we are subject to hallucinations, and psychedelic influences that accompany some perceptions. It seems that the original designer of protoplasmic consciousness instilled in it a capacity for a cursed susceptibility to emotional projections or qualifications of simple sense-impingements. Lush, green grass fills the mouth of the cow with saliva. Green is uplifting. Brown will not be so inspiring. The weak face of the female has a psychedelic effect upon the male, whose strong features have a psychedelic effect upon the female. Each sees that which his projected vision displays. Of course there is more to this self-delusion than faces. I listed the last four types of visions as being Mental Visions, meaning visions that are not the direct result of a sensory percept, such as dreams, hallucinations, intuitional contemplation, reverie, visualized but accurate prophesies, and deliberate mental projections, -- that can be seen by others (tulpas.)

THE MOVING POINT OF REFERENCE

Things which are not absolutely defined, must have a moving (movable) point of reference, which is originally a tentative point of reference, not absolutely defined itself, but which is acceptable as a point of beginning for a study.

When we say an atom is a point of reference for chemistry, we are not by any means indicating it to be an absolutely defined basis for chemistry. Future studies of the farce field theory may give unexpected qualifications to electrons and neutrons. The present knowledge of the atom has for its point of reference, -- the human senses with which we view all calibrations.

In the domain of matter -- physics and chemistry -- the atom becomes a very good point of reference. However when we begin to recognize more subjective phenomena such as force-fields, photons or celestial origins, we may have to find a laboratory procedure that transcends both the atom, and the sensory point of reference behind the atom-world.

And the crucial task immediately surfaces. We must search for a better point of reference for our Self first and for all material phenomena second, which point of reference shall explain both the Self and the nature of matter.

It is not good enough to simply say that the Self is divine and that the nature of matter is that of illusion. These are oversimplifications. The Self can be better understood by the mind, and matter cannot be denied even if a lot of evidence points in the direction of a possible alternate paradigm. If matter is an illusion, it is still a very orderly phantom, and a very powerful one capable of threatening the existence or perpetuation of what is presently considered to be the Self.

Finding a proper point of reference for subjective matters such as philosophy and the social sciences may be more important than furthering the physical sciences which at present, are little more than infinite systems of cataloguing.

The study of life after death is a subjective science, and its scope may be infinite, or infinitely simple. As I wrote in one of the books, -- perhaps this hopeless finite mind will someday develop a faculty for comprehension of infinite or absolutely real and true conditions. And if such would happen, that faculty would bear with it, a new and nearly absolute point of reference.

When such a faculty would appear, the possessor of such a faculty would have difficulty finding a language conveying his discoveries to those without the faculty. In psychic or mystical states such as samadhi, only the person in that state knows with any conviction that which was discovered. Even though a half dozen people capable of reaching samadhi knew that which the first man experienced, they could not individually or collectively produce a language which would convey to the rest of humanity that which might well be the truest definition of Reality of Self, Time and the Cosmos, (and their relationship to each other.)

And once again, I think we have to point in the direction of Intuition, as a faculty which has to be developed to get beyond the vanity of syllogisms, and the fanatic embracing of dogma for the sake of comfort.

Intuition is a magical faculty, but it is not immediately infallible. The human eye is a magical faculty also, but sometimes we have to wear glasses, or train it to recognize hallucinations as being such.

To recapitulate. In the beginning Matter was the point of reference. Matter as viewed by the senses and viewed by the mind as being Reality. We now know that the senses may not see into the final components of matter, and Reality must be defined anew. A rock is no longer a hard inanimate thing... it is a ceaseless heap and flurry of billions of racing electrons. It could be that the electron is in turn composed of microcosmic centers of encapsuled will,

Nevertheless Chemistry and Physics operate very comfortably with the atom as a point of reference. And now they operate simultaneously with other points of reference, such as rays.

The human must take the Self as the point of reference, even above benefits and advantages of Chemistry and Physics. All of the physical sciences are unfinished as long as life is undefined. Science tries to prolong life, but not to define it. The definition might put a new light on the importance of any need for avoiding death. Or it might be the threshold for the perpetuation of indefinite terestrial, individual existence.

This brings us to the Self which we have to locate before we can use it as a point of reference, -- that is, a well-defined point of reference. The mind has improved in the ability to focus, to work with symbols, and to formulate new animate vehicles from the primitive earth and its deposits. It has used a methodical and orderly discipline.

But Intuition tells us that there is something missing. We seem to know more and more about the show, but less about the Real viewer. And the Sciences occasionally produce a vehicle like the hologram that reinforces the Intuition's indications.

Intuition itself has no science to validate that which comes mostly as feelings. To prevent the would-be intuitive man from slipping away into hallucination and superstition, it has to try to test itself perpetually in an orderly (scientific?) manner.

The exercise of the mind in this qualified state of Intuition, produces the magical state of Between-ness. Between-ness is an accidental discovery of a method to bring out a computation from the mind for which the mind had no symbols in the memory bank. Not only does it produce a new wisdom, but it produces phenomena, which in another time were called miracles.

This I am certain of, having seen the operation.

To go into details about the function of Between-ness: first I think that the operator must be prepared for years of intense research, if he or she is interested in finding answers that approach an Absolute nature. In other words it takes years to attune the mind to samadhi, or enlightenment.

However you can tempt yourself or amuse yourself with the identical formula, -- in causing lesser, mundane things to happen. You can win at cards, or cause favorable events to occur. This I have described before.

A step higher in worth, is the performance of miracles of a sort. You can heal without a loss of energy, and you can see into the minds of others. You can control the minds of others. But all of this is a waste of time.

You will be merely grabbing at the bait that will prevent you from cracking the cosmic egg, -- from transcending relative thinking.

To achieve this greatest reward, which is the finding of the Self, and simultaneously finding the expansiveness of that Self -- and finding the Reality of the Self in relation to Time and Cosmos -- you have to hitch up your harness for a long pull.

It will only take you as long as it takes to master Between-ness, -- Between-ness according to this formula.

You must will to find the Truth. Now that term is so general that the mind is apt to reject the quest as being without direction. But where would I tell you to look for the Truth? We do not begin with just reconstructing lies told to parents, neighbors and mates. Although these self-delusions will be remembered when you expect them the least. You begin by reading and studying everything that you can find on the subject of psychology and philosophy. Then give an equal period of time to the study of esoteric phenomena and claims to such, and to the compilation of phenomena not explainable by science. And then spend another period of time in thinking of nothing, or in an attempt to purge the mind from all thinking.

Set your mind against dogmatic, or political trends in mental and spiritual organizations. Set your mind against an obsession with money, pleasure or power. Because these things exist they are not evil, (except in a relative sense), but they will reduce your ability to reach your objective if you adopt them. Set your will to find the Truth or die trying, and become so much of a vector that you will actually choose death to a life style that would damn the Search.

Then when your will is set in the matter, forget about the Will and allow anything to happen that does not jeopardize your Search. And you thus become a Will-less Will-ful vector. In making decisions you must use discrimination only in extreme cases where the vector itself is threatened. In which case you defend your principles which are part of your formula.

Practice introspection. You are looking for your Self. You must begin with studying the body, even though you may suspect that the body is only a temporary shell. You cannot allow yourself to simply suspect this, -- you must prove the real relation of the body to the Self. You cannot pretend that it is an impediment to Truth. While on this planet, it is the only point of reference for your awareness until you are able to leave that body and return.

If you choose to despise the body you are making a mistake. Asceticism is less reasonable than suicide. By asceticism I mean any discipline that punishes the body. You do not need to beat the brute, -- just guide it. However on the other hand, we must not let the body interfere with the research that we have planned.

The body must be encouraged to remain still while the mind watches both the body and the mind. When the body becomes so still that it becomes lost in sleep, then we must become a peripatetic, -- for a while.

We must take all things into account. We live among millions of people. We must not expect to find ourselves more meaningful than them. We should not despise them, but we should never worship their bodies. Nor any body.

But carry a high respect for friendship. Without friendship there is no brotherhood -- there is no safe retreat -- no communion with guides or colleagues, and ultimately no philosophic language of any value.

In the Search we cannot really pursue a "Spiritual" direction because we would first have to find a definition for "Spiritual" and some sort of corroboration that there is a Spirit to define. It is the same with the term "search for God." If we consider God to be "out there," then the places which we would have to search would be more numerous than the stars. Nor can we look for God inside us. We must look inside of ourselves to see that which is there, not to anticipate, -- that which we wish to find there. On the other hand, we should never deny the possibility that intelligences superior to man exist.

And so we go back to looking at the mind. Descartes pivoted his proof of existence upon the evidence of thought. He said, "I think, therefore I am." He could have said, "Thought will not leave my field of awareness, I suffer, therefore I am aware."

When we become aware, we have reached the core of the Self.

Descartes for all of his oversimplification, had a more sensible point of reference than today's behaviorists. He had thought for a point of reference, while the behaviorists, in thek attempts to prove all things by material, scientific methods, claimed the body as their point of reference. Thought became a simple reaction, and awareness as a quality was denied as a "subjective" supposition.

We have other points of reference in the different schools of psychology. Some psychologists carry the emphasis on the body even further. The point of reference for them was pleasure. Their principle therapeutic advice to patients was, "If it feels good, do it." There is no sin but pain, and it can always be cured with chemotherapy. This type of psychology was spawned in the sixties. And with it came an interdiction for any and all who opposed man's right to pleasure. People who taught celibacy to their children were considered to be prudes (or masochists) who denied their children the right to "grow and experience." You were not supposed to caution your child against homosexuality because that would lead to "sexual" discrimination.

I need not prove the statistics that followed. Everyone has access to the media which reports a segment of the population as having gone mad, lusting for sex and blood. Children are being sexually attacked, even by parents. Houses of prostitution have sprung up that supply children. Nurseries are unsafe.

What did the pleasure-oriented therapists overlook? First of all they chose pleasure as a point of reference, as a reason for being, without knowing the other possible reasons for the existence of pleasure. Pleasure is also Nature's bait, to encourage reproduction. And to many this is a trap and a deterrent to peace of mind.

The indulgence in undiscriminating pleasure can only result in pain, first, for the victim and their families, and next, pain for the hedonist who thought that a new social trend exonerated him.

There is still another point of reference in the psychological industry. It is social compatibility, -- meaning that the aim of this group of therapists and psychiatrists is to go for funding for tranquilizing the masses against rebellion, sedating the foolish men with strong convictions, and encouraging sex of any type as a reliever of tension.

I am painting a drab picture of psychology, and yet I am insisting that each of us must study psychology. Perhaps I should have said that first we need to evaluate psychological systems to see if they can explain any of the mysteries of life and our being. This is the first step... to be able to identify the counterfeit.

The point of reference for psychology, must be that which will best lead us to an answer for important psychological questions such as "What is thought?" "What is the relation of thought to the body?" In other words, where does thought occur? "What is sanity?" "Is consciousness the same as awareness?" "Can we be aware in an unconscious body-state?" "Is there a consciousness that survives the death of the body?"

In the process of setting up this study of the human mind, we have to carry on several projects at once, and each of these projects may have a different point of reference, or a set of pieces of evidence that we feel that we must examine.

The stature of the researcher will depend upon his ability to work with the best possible point of reference, yet to never shut a door on any new ideas that awaken a spark of conviction within him.

We have to become sifters of old systems of thinking and new psychological experimentation. We have to be sensible and logical enough to pick up the discrepancies in the different systems of psychology and psychiatry. But with another faculty, working simultaneously, we have to study the vast field of unexplained or improperly explained mental and psychic phenomena.

Religion demands that we accept God, which relieves the exponents of the burden or proving the existence of God. Psychology of the behaviorist type, legislates that there is nothing but a body, which relieves it of the burden of explaining thought as anything but reflexive action, and memory as anything but chemical impingements in the protoplasm.

Perhaps we should start with consciousness or awareness as the points of reference.

POINTS OF REFERENCE, AND HOW THEY ARE USED

Most dealers in arguments and concept structures never give a hint of a possible point of reference. Authors and speakers generally belabor the reader or listener with an overwhelming amount of words and data that will create a picture that his audience will emotionally accept.

In the pursuit of theological truths we generally choose our directions emotionally. The layman looks for the prestigious cathedral, for the charismatic minister, or for the preacher whose words do not trouble the audience too much.

But there are some who come up with arguments that would seem to prove their religious choice to be the most logical one. The Christian point of reference is the Bible, -- the Mohammedan point of reference is the Koran. These books presumably convey the Word of God. What greater reference could we have, except for the claimants' disagreement over the validity of any religion but their own, so that each denies the other claimant's God the right to first place.

And within the ranks of the Christians, there is quite a bit of controversy among those denominations which do or do not have the ability to interpret or understand the Word of God, and relay any true blueprint for spiritual development to the laity.

Perhaps Thomas Aquinas, with his loose syllogistic proposition is more informative than the interpretations of the sacred books.

The fundamentalist uses an unproven basis as his point of reference... which inferred that God had spoken truths through the hands of different biblical amanuenses.

Aquinas used motion to attempt to prove the existence of God. If he had succeeded he would have added substance to the Christian movement. Fundamentalism does not validate its point of reference, it just legislates.

So that when I quote from the Bible, I can only hope that the Scriptures bear some historic accuracy. I would not offer it theological claims as evidence.

But we cannot help asking ourselves, "How can so many people accept a system that holds immense power over them, if its dogmas are floating, unanchored?" I think that the obedience comes partly from the Bandwagon Syndrome and partly from fear, -- being afraid to leave the ranks of the church. There is a feeling of protection or security in some institutions for some people.

And so the institutions hold together down through the centuries for several reasons. Some use the institution for a shield, and others use it for a livelihood. Still others use it for power or money. It is not uncommon to pick up a newspaper and read where a bishop or cardinal has died, leaving a million-dollar estate, or read where evangelists roll up millions of dollars.

Systems which place authority on "sacred" writings, may have manuscripts that are inspiring and filled with wisdom, but their claim to infallibility should be examined.

POINT OF REFERENCE: PREDICTION OF MENTAL OR SPIRITUAL GROWTH BASED ON SOME MANNER OF RESULTS

Disciplines based on results, claimed or real. These disciplines, or movements take a more scientific pose, and appeal to people who are not interested in blind-faith systems, or in charismatic movements. These systems predict a result, if the student or applicant will follow prescribed exercises or disciplines to prove for himself that he can arrive at an exalted or superior position.

For instance, in Anthroposophical literature, Rudolf Steiner lays out a formula or system "for the attainment of knowledge of higher worlds." This involves meditational exercises upon the chakras. The work predicts that if you follow this procedure, predictable phenomena will occur, and inner sights will open up. Of course if a person experiments with this system he must take into consideration that sometimes the mind projects upon the eyes that which it desires them to see. So there must be some discriminatory reservation about the phenomena witnessed, or some perfection of the function that is synonymous with visualization.

Some of these movements are based on results, or on a change of being as a result of a discipline... or the result may be a formula which will place us on a path whose milestones will assure us that we are not wasting our time.

Among them are Zen, T.M., Hatha Yoga, Raj Yoga, Subud, Arica, the Gurdjieff System, and systems of any number of individual gurus.

We go back to the evaluation of these groups as to their claims, the results of those claims, and to the general purpose of the system and any separate purpose of its individual teachers.

Zen predicts results. It has no dogma, and if any Zen groups espouse a dogma or a set of beliefs, it could be judged as being less than a true Zen movement. Zen does not teach. It questions. It examines all conceptions and discards them if they are not valid. Its purpose is the reaching of samadhi or enlightenment, by a system which may be called a non-system.

It is a most worthy discipline, but it cannot be said that all Zen groups are of the same noble purpose.

The purpose of T.M. was originally the finding of peace of mind. Later on, the public was told that its purpose was also the attainment of the ability to levitate. It predicted tranquility for the participants, and doubtlessly many people found this to be true. One point to consider, of course was the possible role that autosuggestion played in bringing about the tranquility. I have never been able to validate the levitation claim.

Hatha yoga promises a healthier body, a body over which a person has increased control. It also promises an improvement of the mental faculties. It does have results of that kind.

Subud, is similar to Zen, in that it is a subtractive system that finds realizations through the shedding of egos and negative tendencies. Its purpose is "Opening." Its procedure involves the latihan which is an exercise in letting go.

POINT OF REFERENCE: APPARENT LAWS OR EVIDENCE

This category includes Spiritualism, Alchemy, Magick, Astrology, Thaumaturgy, and possibly even Christian Science.

Spiritualism has for a point of reference, Evidence of Life after Death. Alchemy has for a point of reference, -- duplicat-able phenomena, as does Magick. Both are also looking for new discoveries that can be formulated. These discoveries are generally along the lines of biological or chemical combinations, which hopefully may lead to a deeper insight into Nature. Thaumaturgy tries to set up laws and formulae for the manipulation of entities.

The real purpose behind all of this group of studies, is varied. It may vary from a sincere desire and search for Truth, down to an attempt at attaining power.

The scrutiny of all dialogue for points of reference may be important. God may be the point of reference at some time, for man. And man may be or is the point of reference for higher intelligence.

That which we must guard against is a national epidemic-psychosis, -- a psychosis or nauseous sickness which infects the minds of the entire population. It is caught first by the weaker personalities and rapidly spreads because of a tolerance for expression by sturdier personalities, and is encouraged by wiser politicians and even endorsed where profits can be made by very intelligent entrepreneurs. It can be nationally destructive and while the host is being destroyed it appears to approve of the psychotic cause of the malaise.

We do not think that national mental diseases exist. The symptoms are the desire by a large group of people for gregarious action, then the deification of the police. Next comes the deification of the group leader who adds more power to the police and to the army. When the corporation heads bow they will receive contracts. The last symptom (which may be fatal) is the public approval of death for those who oppose this Zeitgeist type of infection.

The Nazi movement was a clinical case from contagion to consummation. Women's Liberation could easily be one. Religion is historic as being a generating culture for this type of infection. Patriotic chauvinism can be another.

And the primary infection is possible only by the exposure of weak minds to the use of an erroneous point of reference, which is: All things are definable by collective opinion.

== End ==
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1981-0215-Psychology-of-Miracles-Akron-from-DME

2026-01-11T21:02:11Z

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[[Category:Akron]]
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[[Category:Miracles]]
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== Notes ==

Need to compare with tapes. Feb 15, 1981 is written in the book (hardbound edition) so is presumed correct.

This is from the html.

There are several diagrams. Need to add these.

Dave Weimer cassettes are labeled "1980 Miracles Columbus".

== Diagrams ==

== Text ==

THE PSYCHOLOGY OF MIRACLES

Akron, Ohio February 15, 1981

In this talk we are going to run through a lot of things that are unusual, and try to catalogue them if possible, or to let you judge for yourselves what you think is the basis for all these phenomena.

There are many phenomena, and I was fascinated with them from the time I was quite young. I looked into everything available, and this included tune spent in Spiritualism looking for materializations and that sort of thing.

TYPES OF ENERGY

I find that people are inclined to leap ahead into excessive mystery when explaining the material things that occur in life, where a lot of things can be explained by simple biological means.

The secret of miracles is based on the different energy transmutations that are diagrammed in figure 1. As we come out of the earth (at point A.), our first transmutation is food. Transformation of food into flesh occurs with physical exercise, and the food goes into every part of the body. If you are sick, even if you have heart trouble, the doctors will tell you to move, -- you can't heal yourself if you don't oxidize. You have to get out and move the muscles, and keep the blood circulating.

The first horizontal line in figure 1 represents the primitive individual, where food is the only transmutation.

Some of the food goes into a type of flesh called glands. The endocrines are one place where energy can be stored. Of course energy can be stored in fat, but it is much more quickly released from glands than it is from fat and muscle tissue.

Above that second line, above the glands, we have a neural quantum, -- you can develop neural energy as an additional transmutation.

Many of you may be acquainted with the recent discoveries in brain chemistry. There are chemicals, some produced by the pituitary gland, which affect the synaptic action in the brain. In the process of checking this synaptic action the scientists found that there are opposing forces at work in the nervous system. Two of the chemicals which they have discovered are dopamine, the exhilarator, and serotonin, the depressant. The body is balanced in this way.

Now a synapse is the end of a nerve, which feathers out like fingers on a hand. Two nerves are matched with each other, some distance apart, and at the moment of a thought or perception there is a spark which jumps across from one to the other. This goes on through all the nerves in the brain. Perhaps the message from the eye or the sensory nerves in the fingers won't have a spark jump until it reaches the brain.

If you stop and think about this for awhile you will see why this is necessary. Nothing can be piped directly into the mind or the memory banks, so this intermediary process is used. There is a strong supposition that man lives right here in the spark gap, the same as an automobile lives in the gap of a spark plug. To operate properly the spark must be just right, -- not too strong, not too weak.

Now there is a chemical (with about twenty letters in it) that clears the path of every impulse that comes into the brain. This happens at almost the speed of light. Within a split second another message comes through, and its path must be prepared also. If you are studying, for example, and holding your body still in a chair at a desk, the mind continues to think, -- forcing this action. After awhile the system rises to the occasion and starts to produce enough of these clearing chemicals. These chemicals result from transmutation. And when you run out of this force, the body goes to sleep.

Civilization, which depends upon human thought, is based on the development of the proper chemicals here. Perhaps with each generation there is a chance for the development of a greater sensitivity, -- and possibly a greater inclination for overburdening the brain with drugs and so forth.

Figure 1 - Energy Transmutation

From the neural quantum, and only from the neural quantum, is the spiritual quantum developed. This refers to people who are able to heal with their energy, such as Christ and some of the other famous healers (and rules out that class of people who maybe just believe and go to church.) This quantum is developed at the cost of something else, -- of intense concentration in a direction.

In short then, if you stay at the first level you transmute food into flesh, you get fat, and you can become a hog, -- the energy follows (in figure 1) across and back down to the earth. At the second level you can transmute it into the glands. If that is as far as you go, you become a goat and the energy also returns to the earth. Civilization rests on the ability to transmute the energy someplace above the glands.

TYPES OF MAGICIANS AND MAGIC

There are three different classes or types of magicians. One uses illusion. A second dispels delusion, i.e., takes the path of wisdom. A third, whom most of the books call a Magus, is the magician who creates. These forms start with the physical and go upward to the mental forms of magic.

Also I have categorized six types of magic. The first is what we call sleight-of-hand or legerdemain. This is deliberate delusion, playing tricks with a person's optics and so forth.

A second class of magic is practiced with physical energy. It doesn't require neural energy, but can be done with just simple somatic or protoplasmic energy. The Japanese had a way of developing energy they called hara (the Chinese used the word chih), using it in the ability to break bricks with the hands, do superhuman feats, lift enormous loads and so on.

The existence of these abilities are a validation of the different quantum energies I am referring to. I became convinced of the existence of neural quantum energy when I saw several feats where people were able to do enormous tasks with their hands, beyond the normal capacity of the body, -- verging upon the miraculous.

You hear a lot of stories about people lifting heavy loads in an emergency, such as women lifting automobiles when their children have been caught underneath. I have read several accounts of this, and I experienced this enormous energy myself when I was young. A two-ton truck had hit a taxicab and overturned. It was a junk truck full of bathtubs and that sort of thing, -- the truck was on its side, pinning a man and a pregnant woman to the street. Two of us had heard the noise and ran down the street to the scene of the accident.

I shouted to the fellow with me, "We've got to get the truck off them." We took ahold of it, -- and couldn't move it. I kept cursing and shouting, "Come on." Then -- we picked it Up -- we pushed it over, putting it back on its dual wheels. I don't know of any weightlifter who could have picked up that load. And neither I nor the other fellow had ever lifted weights. I could not have done that under ordinary conditions. Afterward we were totally weakened, to the point of collapse from the strain.

From this experience I became convinced that we summoned energy from all parts of our body. That is the only way we could have done it. And I came to the conclusion that the energy comes through the nerves. It doesn't come through the bloodstream, because the bloodstream doesn't have time to get it to all the muscles, say, of the back and arms.

This event took place when I was quite a bit younger. It wasn't until about ten years ago that I came across the evolved scientific chemical analysis of what they call the neural transmitters, these things which clear the path and allow the transmission of the electrical messages through the nerves. But if this can work at lightning speed to clear the synapses, it can also work at lightning speed to transmit energy to any part of the body.

I'm not saying that you have to have neural quantum energy to do these things, but I'm saying that the nerves become transmitters of an enormous energy. What we have is what I call the potential in the nervous system to hold a quantum of energy.

Incidentally, this hara is what the Japanese used in their hand-to-hand combat. You hear stories coming out of places like Formosa about individuals trained to kill people with their hands. I think that they may have unconsciously projected through their nervous system into their hands the power that would have lifted a truck. Now the bad thing is of course that it's all right to use this ability once in a while to help somebody who is injured, but I can't see the idea of downgrading what I consider to be a very sacred energy for the purpose of killing people.

Taking this energy a step further it becomes neural energy. It becomes the intelligence. The ability to maintain a certain level of neural energy will determine the reaction or the grades a person gets when he goes to college.

Going up another step of transmutation from there we come to healers (that's basically what we're here to talk about.) This transmutation comes from neural energy, -- it can't come from anywhere else. And it occurs when energy is projected from the human body, sometimes at a distance and sometimes by laying on of hands. It doesn't comes through the mind of a man so much as it does from the nerves. Of course the mind has to have the intention or direction. This is a bit more complicated than just thinking about something and doing it, -- you may have to think about it for years before you become proficient at healing.

The third category of magic is the miracle of faith. This seems to have very little to do with quantum energy. There is a certain mental attitude that has to occur, but a lot of faith healings happen without any particular body condition of the healer. I assume that most healings take place in a group, so that energy is drawn from a dozen up to several hundred people perhaps.

Some of the mechanics of faith are known, but most things about it are unknown. Also in the faith category is witchcraft. People don't stop to think about this, but witchcraft doesn't work unless the user has faith in it. And they find that to place a spell on a subject effectively, requires having him believe in it.

About twenty or thirty years ago huna healing was quite the rage. They had deciphered the Hawaiian languages and decided that the huna-doctors had developed a unique system of healing that involved faith or belief. Even the huna-doctors believed it, -- so they in turn could be killed by another witchdoctor's reversal of it.

The fourth general category of magic includes the mental forms. This is above the physical and the faith categories, and the mechanics of it are known. The mental tricks or magic have to do with hypnosis, zapping, psychokinesis and so forth, and these are things which have been scientifically tested.

Psychokinesis (psycho - mind; kinetic - moving), the moving of objects with the mind, is manifestly an extrusion of the mind itself. Uri Geller has undergone a lot of testing with scientists in this country and in England, and they claim that he can affect matter in such ways as twisting objects and repairing watches. There is a Russian lady also who can move objects with her mind just by concentration.

Zapping is a form of hypnosis. While hypnosis generally depends upon mesmeric passes or something that fixes itself on the person's mind or traps his attention, zapping can be done without your knowing it. This is the root-value of most of the cults which come out of India and the East. There are people who train to go into a concentrative mood and remain that way for long periods of time. They will discipline themselves for ten or twenty years to learn how to "zap," -- I think they call this shakti. They are able to actually knock a person off his feet simply by looking at him, and sometimes without looking at him.

You may have heard of Meher Baba, who had this ability. He disciplined himself, even remaining silent up until the time he died. People would come into a room to see him, walk in front of him and collapse on the floor in front of him. Of course that was quite a sales feature. People really believed that this fellow had something, -- that he had the knowledge of the Cosmos or was in tune with a higher Spirit.

But he wasn't necessarily in tune with a higher spirit, -- this was just the product of India. I've always said that since they don't have a great steel production over there they had to find something else to export. And I'm not saying this out of a critical manner, -- I have studied this for a long time, have joined and been initiated into groups. I studied their techniques, and found that it has nothing to do with God.

The fifth category of magic has to do with the magic of entities. We won't discuss this very much here, although you can ask questions about it later if you're interested. You will find hints of this in old writings like The Tempest, where spirits create storms or do the bidding of some person.

The sixth and final category is what I call a supramental form of magic. This category is represented by the arrow pointing upward in figure 1, to spiritual quantum energy, or creation. This is a method of effecting magical happenings, meaning something such as a cure that has no good explanation for the average person, -- a result which occurs without a prescription from a medical doctor.

EXAMPLES OF MAGIC

Now that we have identified the main categories of magic we can talk about some examples in greater detail. There are some other categories as well, -- I don't know exactly how all of these work, but I will identify them as we go along to the best of my ability.

In the Polynesian Islands there is a magic performed that brings the dinner in to the table, -- the people play music that brings the dolphins in. They chant a little mantra to the dolphins, even before they are visible, that the people are having a dinner and all the dolphins are invited. The dolphins don't realize of course, that they are the dinner. (This also is another instance where it seems strange that people would put magical energy into such a purpose.)

When you get to talking about magic, a lot of people will say that this is primitive or that this is pagan superstition and so forth. And to this I say, "Nonsense." These things have been scientifically investigated, and other things as well such as firewalking. People have tested them and they are found to work. The whole field of alchemy is full of these tilings.

Every major religion on the face of the earth believes in magic and believes very strongly. The fundamentalistic Christians can go back to the Old Testament, which is full of instances of it, -- people being taken up alive into heaven, people healing the sick, men emerging from fiery furnaces. Unless we have to redefine the term magic, I say these things are synonymous with it. The same power is there.

We have cases of raising the dead, communicating with the dead, and supernatural help in removing obstacles to progress, as in Heaven sending a legion of angels to help Gideon. Other phenomena observed are walking on water, changing destinies, and stopping blood. Anyone here who is near my age will have heard of the stopping of blood, done with a formula supposedly from the Bible.

Within our own era were the experiments at Duke University, monitored by J.B. Rhine, which resulted in the use and legitimizing of the term ESP. By throwing dice with the right frame of mind you can win. This includes precognition and psychokinesis. They found a measurable increase in the frequency of the dice coming up on a certain number when concentrated on for a long period of time. With practice they could alter the roll of the dice.

I refer to the pursuit of this type of knowledge as Direct Mind Science. This covers generally all of the things I have mentioned so far, and there are many other examples of it in history, -- such as Kapila's Eye. This term comes from ancient Hindu philosophy about the origins of the Indian religions.

There were two men, Shankara and Kapila, the one supposedly the teacher of the other. Kapila was said to have stopped an attacking army -- I don't know how large it was -- but the group was supposedly destroyed by his glance. He gave them the evil eye. Now this may sound farfetched, but of course it happened a few thousand years ago so the recording of it may be twisted a bit.

Right here in Ohio we had the incident of Tecumseh, the Shawnee Indian magician. He was immune (or convinced a lot of people that he was immune) to bullets. He once told some people around him, "I'll stamp my foot and the earth will tremble." So he struck his foot on the ground and there was an earthquake. He had some tremendous power, and even predicted his own death -- knowing that he had to die, and knew the time, and the cause of his death.

So how do these things come about? Somewhere underneath all of this is a common denominator, which I'm trying to indicate in this talk.

Within the miracles of faith are the institution at Lourdes, the healings of Christ, and incidentally the healings of Rasputin. Rasputin was supposed to have been an evil genius. He was what they called a starets in Russia, a travelling holy man. Their ideas of holiness differed a bit from ours, -- he could be quite a lecher when he took a notion to be. Yet he healed people. He was a friend of the last Czar in Russia, between the turn of the century and World War I. They brought Rasputin into the family because the only son of the Czar was a hemophiliac, and Rasputin was able to heal him.

I was fascinated when I read about his life. Rasputin would come into a town and retire into a cellar or cave or whatever they let him stay in. He would remain there a couple of weeks, fast and pray, and abstain from sexual contact, living like a penitent. They said that when he came out of the cellar he would be as pale as a ghost, -- but anyone who got in his road got healed. He would go through town healing people and of course create quite a stir. He could have anything he wanted. He didn't acquire a lot of money in his life, but he had a lot of prestige.

However, there was a negative side of Rasputin. Before leaving town, after healing all the people, he would take all the women out into the woods, -- and they would have a grand orgy. I don't know why he tied this into his life, why it would have been important to him. But it's amazing how well women could keep secrets, -- there wasn't a single man in Russia that ever found out what happened.

Notice that he developed or renewed his quantum energy while he was in the cellar. The power to zap, to transfer energy to someone else, was renewed. As I mentioned, this zapping is among the mental forms of magic.

MENTAL FORMS OF MAGIC

Also among the mental powers we have hypnosis. This business of changing water to alcohol, of which we have a case in the Bible, can be done quite easily with hypnosis. We can't go back and check what happened then, but you can check what happens today. This is quite commonly done. If we had the time today we could hypnotize someone and give them a drink of water, telling them it was alcohol, and they would get drunk. It makes a good show.

A new thing coming up is the effect of the mind upon plants, which in the past has been outside the realm of magic. I think Burbank pointed out years ago that plants responded to human emotions, but I don't think anybody paid any attention to him.

Now these things relate to the conscious mind. But there is another thing, another faculty of the mind, that enters into this magical dimension. I call this Direct Mind. The bigger things are done with direct mind influence, while the smaller things are done with hypnosis, zapping, and the like. Also, there were people alive not long ago, such as Meher Baba and Gurdjieff, who were able to zap skillfully by direct mind. By that I mean that they didn't have to dangle something in front of someone to put him to sleep. This could be done if someone just walked within range of them, and sometimes could be done at great distances.

These examples are not just idle chatter. They are all things that I have seen and done, and also have read about others doing. There is an instance in the Bible about Ananias and Sapphira, who were supposedly killed by Peter with mental power. And Blavatsky writes of being on a portico at a place out in the jungle when a tiger leaped over at the people. A yogi stood up and shouted at the tiger, which dies in mid-air. When it hit the ground it was dead. Again, these are some of those things in magic which a person who prided himself on having a logical mind would find hard to believe. But these things can be done.

A third mental power is creation, represented (figure 1) by the arrow pointing upward. As an example of the use of the mind to create we have something called a tulpa. Alexandra David-Neal, who I consider to be a responsible and intelligent author, outlines in her Magic and Mystery in Tibet a method used by monks to create an image of a person with their will and imagination. These could be seen by other people, -- they weren't as thin as a ghost, but appeared to be very solid. Normally, or abnormally, the monks created women. The only trouble was that after awhile the tulpa would take on a very feminine personality and become hard to live with. Then it took the monk possibly years to get rid of or melt the image.

There are other things that can be created. You may have heard of materializations, which are similar to a tulpa. I was at a materialization session once when a man walked out from behind a curtain and said, "Touch me, and let these people know that I am solid." This was in a room of a house, not a big auditorium. The man who responded was a professional man, a chemist, and he said, "You're as solid as I am, I'm quite sure." But when the thing left, it went right through the floor. Incidentally, I spent years tracking down phony mediums to find a genuine materialization. And most of them are phony.

Telepathy is another form of direct mind creation or projection. You can contact people sometimes at great distances. A lot of people are contacted automatically by urgency, such as when a relative becomes sick, -- the message gets conveyed with something in the communication that is very pressing. And I think telepathy can also be done by practice.

There are things, as I said, which we don't know the cause of. We don't have enough data on many of them, such as Kapila's eye. Nobody can go back six thousand years and check the data. The use of talismans is also somewhat mysterious, -- it implies ascribing a magical power to a stone, ring or other object. Of the mechanics of this I have no idea. Perhaps it functions on the level of belief, since they are often used within faith systems.

THE MECHANICS OF MAGIC

We don't know haw many of these things work, because our knowledge of the world just scratches the surface. But there are things which we are capable of understanding, when we come to the idea of psychology.

The tie-in is that without psychology none of these things exist. The stage magician is one of the shrewdest psychologists you will ever come up against. He knows how to delude the people because he knows what the mind is not capable of resisting. From the very beginning magic deals with the mind. It is either deluding the mind or opening up the mind to the wisdom that is behind a lot of supposed delusions.

The mechanics of magic seem to be very complex. But by cataloguing the forms and finding common denominators we can hope to greatly simplify them. Many of the magical things are done by very simple people who have no scholastic education. But, for example, in throwing dice, the mechanics of what causes them to roll a certain way must be quite complex, -- and it all has to happen within a short time, say two or three seconds, before the dice come to a stop. So there has to be an intelligence there which is superior to our ability to watch the faces on the dice as they roll and at the precise moment bring them to a stop.

There has to be something there which is beyond that, because these things are done. They can be made to happen. Science is basically a system of prediction. All things in chemistry, physics, and mathematics have to be based upon prediction and proof, meaning duplication of the experiment. Somebody says that he can put hydrogen and oxygen together and produce water. He is asked to prove it and he does it. Then a man comes up and says, "I can concentrate on those dice and bring up a certain average." And he does it. Once he can make predictions like this his work is scientific.

And all these other phenomena, for example healing, may likewise be subject to prediction and demonstration. Incidentally there are certain common denominators and even common limitations to these, such as Christ's inability to heal in a town in which no one believed in him. The people with whom you grew up, and talked with, and played ball with, don't believe that you can do anything except what you did in the home town, -- as a youth.

THE PATH TO MAGIC

Everybody wants to be a magician. I would say that most of the religions on the face of the earth would not have begun and been perpetuated without the use of magic. Nobody wanted to hear polite philosophy alone. They had to have something that healed the sick, or possibly repaired them when they spent too much of their energy in the wrong direction.

Every child wants to find out the mechanics of life, and then to control. And here is where the clashing of personalities occurs, because they run into someone else who also wants to control. Then the competition begins, to be stronger or more clever or whatever.

Generally the first thing a person tries is basic stage magic, -- it seems as if you have to start somewhere. When I was in my teens I looked into Spiritualism, going from one camp to another. Once in college I started working with hypnosis, and for a few months I was really pleased with myself, -- I thought it was a lot of fun leaving them lying in the hallways. But I never had the idea of becoming a stage hypnotist. It wasn't too long before I realized that I was only touching the edge of an enormous body of power, that I could sense that lay back there somewhere. And I came to the conclusion that it was somewhere inside me.

So I would occasionally use hypnosis for parlor entertainment or possibly to help someone, but never on a commercial basis. Some of us also experimented with regression. Some time ago there was the case of Bridey Murphy, who supposedly remembered who she was in a former lifetime in Ireland. This created quite a stir, and shook up all the Catholics in the world with this once-and-for-all "proof of reincarnation, and the destruction of the myth of one life-trip. Or the truth of it, whichever it is.

At the tune, I was meeting regularly with a group of people who were interested in spiritualistic interpretations. We decided to try regression; since I was able I did the hypnosis. We didn't get too far with it, but I did discover this much, -- that you can't prove reincarnation with hypnosis. Because, a person can be hypnotized and put into almost any space and time dimension you want, and then respond and even come up with items of history. Before the meeting I would stop at the library and get someone's name out of a history book. Later we would hypnotize someone and tell them that they were this person. They would then play it out.

To give you an example, I once hypnotized a lady about thirty-two years of age. I stopped at the library in a hurry on the way to the Friday night meeting. I was careful to get the name of a person who had died before our subject was born, so I took the name of a British spy the Germans had executed in World War I.

The spy was a woman named Edith Cavell. I got the name, the date and place of execution, the fact that she was shot, and that she had a boyfriend who was a British Major. (It seems that they mated rather late over there. She wasn't a pretty young girl like Mata Hari, -- she was nearly fifty years of age when she was shot, and her boyfriend was older than she was.)

So at the meeting I hypnotized the girl and told her, "Your name is Edith Cavell, this is the year 1917, and you are standing in front of a German firing squad. Now tell me, why are you standing there? What did you do?" And she got hysterical, of course. At first she said, "I don't know what I did wrong." But after I repeated the question she recounted many of the details of the execution.

This was done in the home of a Presbyterian minister who was originally from Italy. His wife, although also Italian, had grown up in England and had gone to college there. I noticed that all the while I was getting answers from the hypnotized woman, the minister's wife was nodding her head in agreement. To the question, "How are you dressed?" the woman said, "I have my nurse's uniform on." The minister's wife would nod her head, "Yes, that's right."

When it was all over we awakened the girl. And the minister's wife said, "That's an amazing thing. How could she have known? That was exactly what happened, -- the description of the dress even down to the stripes."

And I said, "Howdojyou know?"

She said, "I was raised in England, and at the time Edith Cavell was killed I was a little girl. I read about it in the newspapers." (It was like the hostages in Iran today, -- everyone idolized Edith Cavell.) "Every incident of that execution was branded in my mind as a child. This was an important, heroic figure to me and I never forgot the details all my life."

Now this was a coincidence, because I hadn't discussed beforehand with the group the name which I would use. I had just fished for a random name, only picking someone who had died before our subject was born.

This experience was amazing. I later corresponded with a hypnotist hi New Jersey, and he told me some fantastic things similar to this. You can even go back in hypnosis into what Carl Jung calls the archetypal or racial memory, knowledge which is germane to a certain nationality.

Back to the idea of the upward progression of the magician, we come to the words on the chart, "Selfish Ego." In other words, this is the selfish person who is wanting to be powerful and wanting to show his power, In turn, after you look it over you change to a higher ego, in that you want wisdom rather than power.

To be frank, my conviction was that I was facing my eventual death, and I realized that the body would not survive. Perhaps if I were lucky though, something that I learned would survive. So you don't want to be selfish, except for your pursuit of survival. I wasn't interested anymore in making a big splash as much as I was in becoming something mentally. And I went into mental sciences then which would expand my own sphere.

(Kundalini, which is one of the factors in these sciences, is the basis of a lot of magic. The term refers to the means by which the glandular energy is transmuted upward. There is considerable literature about it. You don't have to use an Indian word for it, but there is no word in the English language which quite suits it.)

So we have the question of egos. You will find in the writings on Zen the message of attaining a tremendous awareness with the dropping of these egos. Of course, they have to be dropped in a certain order. And here we come to a new term, "Outer Energy." This is the self-less ego. It is the ego of the healer, -- but the healer is now making a sacrifice of himself and his own private energy.

Most of the healings which use energy and are found in church settings are brought about by the transfer of energy from the healer to the person healed. Some theologians attribute the use of this method to Christ, and say that had he lived beyond the age of thirty-three he would have died anyway, because he was so burnt from the transfer of his energy.

There was a fellow who went over to Tibet a while ago to study healing. He had been working as an undercover detective for the state of Kentucky, and had to leave the country because his life was in danger. So he went to Tibet and paid them to teach him to heal, -- he took the name of Norbu Chen.

Supposedly they locked him up in a cave and told him to concentrate until he generated the quantum energy necessary to heal. Afterward he came back to Houston, Texas and was healing quite a few people. These were miraculous cures such as removing tumors and other conditions which were nearly fatal, or at least which would have become fatal after a few years. He said he was doing it by direct projection of energy, but that he couldn't project it indefinitely.

It's like a generator producing a high form of electricity, and you can't generate forever. He told the press when he was interviewed that he was only good for a couple of years. No one hears of Norbu Chen now, but he was very popular here fifteen or so years ago.

Now the last term on the chart is "Non-Ego." In this category there is no set technique, so I call it an art of between-ness. There is an art in doing this in which there is no loss of physical energy, so the person is not limited in the amount he can do. This is the ability to hold the mind on a dead standstill in order to effect certain changes.

Now are there any questions you would like to ask before we go further?

Question: You mentioned that Christ may have used hypnosis in changing the water into wine. But what about the guests who drank it having no idea about this change and commenting that this wine was the best?

Rose: Yes, I realize this. We're dealing basically with a book, and I can't prove anything one way or the other by just using a book. A lot of people believe that the Bible is something very valid, -- I used this as an example only. I am pointing out what could be. I wasn't there, and I don't say that this is exactly what happened. What I am saying is that to be scientific these things have to be duplicated.

Incidentally, you can hypnotize a large number of people more easily than you can hypnotize one person. Unfortunately this is what has happened with most people today, -- television.

Question: Of the four types of egos that you mentioned, which operating from? Rose: Well, -- that's a personal question, (laughter)

Question: Are you familiar with the work of the two men, one in the Philippines and the other in South America, who do psychic surgery? And how do they accomplish this?

Rose: Yes, I'm familiar with it, but I don't know how it works. I would have to get pretty close to them and watch them before coming to any conclusions about what they're doing. I place a lot of credence in the reports about the fellow from South America who supposedly operates with an old pen-knife. But I don't want to say about certain instances whether they are true or not, without examining all the details. I saw a film about the fellow from the Philippines. I also heard that some of the tumors they had taken out were analyzed and found to be chicken meat. But that statement could have come from someone who didn't like what they were doing, -- I don't know.

The thing about all these magical phenomena I say is that where there is a lot of smoke there might be a little fire. After we read about things back in history we are inspired to find a parallel around us today. We can't prove things by history alone, -- some of it has to be by demonstration.

I know of cases where after X-rays of their condition people were ready for the operating room. Kathryn Kuhlman from Pittsburgh was involved in a case like this where a woman was about to have a tumor removed. The tumor burst, supposedly, and ran out through the intestine. They publicized it on the radio at the time. I even talked to the doctor who had handled the case. He said, "Well, that will happen sometimes. I won't deny that the tumor burst, but sometimes a tumor will burst like that when it is attached to the intestine in that way." But you do find a number of cases where it is seemed that surgery has been performed.

What I do believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, is that all of these things are possible, -- even if they have never really been carried out. The reason why I believe that these things can happen is there is a formula I ran across, by which you can accomplish nearly anything in relation to the human body. This formula is the last one I mentioned, called between-ness, the holding of the head on dead center. This is the way the bigger things are carried out, -- and I think that the great healers all learned it.

My private opinion, (and I hope I don't offend anybody but we're trying to be as scientific as possible), is that in order to start a spiritual, religious, or political movement in days gone by, you had to be a magician. People such as the ones I mentioned who came out of India, -- the zappers, which are still very effective. They convinced a million people or more in this country that they possessed tremendous power, just by knocking people off their feet.

And they had power, -- the ability to drive entities out of a person who was possessed, for example. This is historical. I've seen these things done in our day. And they can be done on call.

Question: You talk about healing as generating a projecting of our own energy...

Rose: That's one form, but there are other forms.

Question: ... but I have always heard it stressed that it's important to be a passive channel rather than an active one.

Rose: Well yes, -- but I would then ask, "As a channel for what? Where is the energy coming from?" I have heard that same advice quite a bit. But I don't buy it and don't want to confuse or beguile anyone with the term "divine energy."

It's a preposterous farce to presume that we are so important to the creature in charge of the entire universe, that we will have gumboils removed or have our girlfriend make up with us. That the effects of things which we consider by our own religious attitudes to be crimes and sins, and which cause degeneration of tissue, sickness, or whatever, will be removed. And that now all you have to do is to go to the divine source, and somebody will pump the energy down through the top of your head or elsewhere, and you will be renewed so that you can go back out and have some more fun. I just don't buy that at all.

So this is why I would ask the question, "Where is the energy coming from?" These people who have done healings have come from all religions and walks of life, so it isn't limited to a particular religion or deity.

Another form of magic comes under the heading of belief. A large number of these things are done by belief, although I don't say that you must necessarily have belief in order to have things happen. This is a category of magic, but there are other ways it can be done.

MAGIC AND PSYCHOLOGY

Here I want to make a note on the psychology of things. I think that our so-called modern psychology is taking a difficult turn. And I think that this is the reason why people are not properly examining the powers of the mind. Science seems generally to wait until something is discovered and fairly well believed or supported by thousands of people, before accepting it. Hypnosis is an example of this. At one time it was considered to be the work of demons. I think that the people who really opposed it were those who didn't understand it or who couldn't make it work effectively.

Psychology itself, in its pure meaning being the science of the mind, seems to be doomed to an unprovable outcome, -- because it deals with an abstraction, which is thought. And yet the present trend in psychology is that instead of defining thought and the true basis or cause or true powers of thought, we have entered a generation or two of manipulatory psychology, under the name of behaviorism and some others.

There is an attempt to make it a science so that it can be funded, so that it can be forced upon people. You'll have to take it. If you show yourself perhaps to be a little shakey, when some healer could possibly take care of you in a very short period of time, -- instead you may be subject to months and even years of drugs and counter-drugs which leave you a permanent wreck.

This all comes about by conditioning. We are conditioned to believe in authority. We are contitioned to believe that the people who have a shingle out know what they're talking about. The amazing thing about people in authority is they become almost stupefied by too many years in college, studying something as medicine, and when they get out it's like a rubber band is shooting them forward to get that first hundred thousand dollars. They put their patients through an assembly line production, and if they don't know what is wrong with a patient they give him a placebo until they guess correctly. The public on the other hand is supposed to accept these people's authority.

Now this may not be so bad when you get it from a medical doctor. But it is a different story when you have somebody tinkering with your mind, -- who knows nothing for instance about the phenomenon called possession, which they quickly label schizophrenia. Sure there are drugs which will hit you in the head and which will make you harmless, -- and these are what are applied to a person.

I believe that there is a different way of approaching them. But of course, -- if you say these things you are considered to be beyond the pale. There are no miracles according to behavioristie psychology. You follow their prescription and you will not create anything. These drugs momentarily alleviate symptoms, but to heal someone you have to find the cause of the disturbance.

I ran into something when I was reading up on Sufism. This was written in about the year 1200 by al-Ghazali. Every time you look into these old movements you find psychology.

One of the most striking peculiarities about contemporary man is that while he is abundantly scientific ... he finds it extremely difficult to understand that his beliefs are by no means always linked either with his intelligence, his culture, or his values. He is therefore almost unreasonably prone to indoctrination.

In different language, when you want to take a step away from the delusion, from the big game that everyone else is into, you go to a doctor, -- and he gives you a name for it. For instance, I visited a young man in a mental institution when I was up in Rhode Island giving a lecture. I knew him pretty well, so I went in and said to the doctor, "What are you giving him?"

He told me the name of the drug, I think it was Stelazine. And I said, "How do you diagnose his condition?"

He said, "We don't have a diagnosis."

I said, "Then what are you giving him medicine for? A doctor is not supposed to prescribe without a diagnosis."

Well he said, "We have drugs that counter certain thoughts. He has certain thoughts, so we give him a counter-drug. So you don't have to understand the person, you just diagnose one thought, -- we have a drug for every thought."

CLASSIFICATION OF FORMS

Here I would like to present a list of systems, which we can talk about individually later if you like. These are the systems which approach to power, -- healing power or magical power.

BELIEF

PURIFICATION

SURRENDER OF EGOS

INVOCATION

MECHANICAL FORMULAE

KUNDALINI

PRAYER

BETWEEN-NESS

The first is belief. Another one is purification, -- this is an important factor. Third is the surrender of egos. Invocation, -- this is help from entities, if you want to go that trip. Then there are mechanical formulas such as spells, curses, and witchcraft, -- not that you're going to heal anyone with these, but they appear as part of systems like the huna religion. Kundalini, -- this is the outstanding one. Then there is prayer. And then finally, between-ness, -- this is a more scientific term.

These are the general categories of means which are used to produce miracles and mental phenomena.

ABSTRACT STUDY OF THE MIND

I want to start in with something which will give you a general idea on an approach to an abstract philosophy. The first place I encountered this was in a book on Zen by Hubert Benoit (The Supreme Doctrine), and it struck me as really something, (figure 2)

Figure 2

In this business of understanding the mind there has to be an approach to an abstract philosophy. I used to know a fellow in Pittsburgh who had trouble articulating, -- he couldn't talk very well. We'd be talking philosophy and if there was a pause he would motion with his finger on the table and say, "Well there's this (to the left), and there's this (to the right)." Then he'd put his finger to the middle and say, "And then there's this."

Now this sounded like chatter and everybody laughed. But I realized that this fellow knew something. It was just that he had a limited ability to demonstrate it.

But what we have in figure 2 is "this," and "this." Two lower corners of a triangle. One represents black and the other represents white. This is called relative thinking or linear thinking. To this way of thinking everything has to be either black or white. But everything is not black or white, -- in between we find gray. And we arrive at that only by the contemplation of black and white.

I call this a method of triangulation of thinking. It's similar to the method which might be used by a surveyor who wants to measure the height of a mountain, the perpendicular distance from its top down through its base. The line can't be measured directly because it is inside the mountain, and it would be too difficult to drag a surveyor's chain up to the top.

The measurement is done at a distance from the mountain, using a transit. You point the transit to the mountain top and measure out a certain distance from the apparatus toward the mountain, then determine the angle by measuring a triangle with one unknown side. The distance toward the base of the moutain is measurable -- so you calculate the unknown side of the triangle -- the height of the mountain.

The idea of an abstract philosophy is very much similar to this. By using it we can rise above the linear type of thinking. This saves years and years of contemplation on that line. An example of doing this is the concept of space-time. (Figure 2b.) The concept was brought about by triangulation. What we see is only that which our senses and our human mind allow us to see. But what exists in the final analysis is neither space nor time as such. Really there is space-time. There is no understanding of any dimension in space without an understanding on our part of time.

Now going over into our thinking, we have two faculties or tools so to speak. One of these is logic, but there are other things we perceive without logic at all, -- we sense them. Some of the greatest creations, and probably most of the inventions, would not have occurred without the faculty of intuition.

I remember years ago working at a Babcock & Wilcox subsidiary plant near Alliance, Ohio on the atomic submarine. We had a man there who was gifted with an unusual intuition besides his knowledge of physics. He discovered and devised ways of piping liquid molten metal through a motor, at a time when most everyone else had given up. He applied his intuition, not his logic. We had said that logically there was no way to pipe it through because it would burn up the motor.

Now you have to combine the two faculties. (Figure 2c.) An untrained intuition, in a person who just gets hunches, can get erratic and misleading. But a person who tempers his intuition with logic can arrive at wisdom. And the entire pattern is one of being, for the first time.

When you're approaching a problem there is a formula which can be used, which has to do with the exercise of a magical betweenness to produce, or rather to witness, a total reality. First there is thought (and of course we're obsessed with thought and try to hang onto our thoughts to a great extent.) But you take the mind first in thought, and then have the mind in no-thought, and you have an absolute realization. (Figure 2d.)

Here I keep having to refer to such things as Zen. Inci-centally, I consider the Zen technique, developed thousands of years ago, to be a much higher type of psychology than what we have in the Western world today. This is because they used what I call direct mind. They didn't try to photograph thought or try to catalogue certain types of behavior. They went directly to the mind itself.

The students of Zen in order to have a total realization had to rid the mind of thought. You'll find this in all the books written on the subject. This is the only way it could come about. Now this seems paradoxical, to think with the mind free of thought. It sounds a little frightening in fact. But all through these books you'll read that this fellow was looking for "no-mind." There is another term for it, if you can comprehend it. "Losing yourself in God." But if a person is offended by the word God, we can just say that you do not think, -- you have the mind without thought.

In the old Kabbalistic writings the formula was, "The imagination plus the will plus the fiat. And then forget." In the beginning the creation was dreamed up, this was the imagination. Then the will was spoken in the fiat, "Let there be." And then drop the whole matter. This is the formula for the creation of the world, or anything you wish to create.

So you put a thought in your mind and hold it there. Then forget it. Or, -- you bring yourself to the point of anxiety by Zen techniques, into where the mind actually goes blank from the tension. And when this happens you experience something superior to the knowledge you get by step-by-step processes, weighing one word against another.

The reason for using these diagrams is that this is about the only way to explain the mechanism by which this works, other than say quoting a sacred writing. It applies to this other method of healing also. You can pick up a lot of this information in some of the literature that is available. Each one of these books I mention contains a fragment of this information, which the author develops. Our group tries to make some of these available.

THE MIND AND CREATION

Joseph Chilton Pearce wrote a book which he calls The Crack in the Cosmic Egg. He said that his wife was dying of cancer, and he decided that he might be able to heal her if he could destroy the present paradigm and substitute for it a paradigm of health, or of immortality perhaps.

The term paradigm refers to a fact which relates to language and our beliefs. If you work say in a machine shop, there is a language that develops which only the machinists know, composed of short terms and abbreviations. It's the same with chemical labs and engineering labs. Doctors use it in the practice of medicine, -- they call a hemostat a "stat," and so on. A new language develops, and this is called a paradigm. But it's a paradigm within a paradigm, because the whole human language is a paradigm.

The paradigm is a language, one that has been concocted just for expedience, -- just to get by. For example, in primitive times, in Anglo-Saxon times or even before that, the word "good" as a quality was meant simply in terms of pro and con. But later the concept of good took on a meaning of its own.

By this same process we developed a language which believes in such concepts as sickness. Mary Baker Eddy for instance goes along with this same thought, -- Christian Scientists maintain that we create sickness, and that we have to change the paradigm by faith. So in dealing with a person who is sick, as defined by a certain paradigm, Chilton Pearce's concept of the way to cure the patient, (his wife in this case), was the substitution of this paradigm for another one.

I do not entirely agree. And I don't know what his thoughts are about it now. His wife died later, incidentally.

But this is the magical triangulation again. (Figure 2e.) You first have the thought of a paradigm, then you have no thought of a paradigm (or thought of no-paradigm.) You say, "Baloney, -- I don't accept it. I don't think about it." Of course what happens is that you create a super-paradigm. This is the way it is created, -- you might call it a system of magic. Or it might be just something that happens as a result of things which don't function according to the laws of chemistry and physics as we know them.

Figure 2f. is the one which has to do with say the lifting of a truck in an emergency. You start with the thought of action, "This truck has to be lifted." Then, -- you don't convince yourself that your back is going to break if you lift it. You cancel that thought completely out. And the result is, -- herculean physical phenomena. It is somewhere between action and nonaction that you have the capacity for total action. This is creation on the physical plane. I point out that here again we have the factor between-ness, which I earlier associated with the term non-ego, and the effortless method of healing.

Besides using this to alter physical circumstances, this method is also used very effectively in the mental and personal realms. It is spoken of very plainly in the prayer of Alcoholics Anonymous: Give us the serenity to tolerate the things we can tolerate, the strength to change the things we should change, and the wisdom to know the difference. There is a magical formula in that prayer. People change as a result of it.

Why? Because a person surrenders his ego to a higher will. We don't have to name it, -- we're not smart enough necessarily to be able to identify that which is superior to us. It's like saying, "Yes, I believe this, -- I would like for it to happen. But I'm not going to try to make it happen, unless it's supposed to happen, -- then I will it to happen. Otherwise I'll forget about it." And the result is creation, -- if it's supposed to happen. You don't create anything that isn't supposed to be created.

JACOB'S LADDER -- THE PATH TO REALIZATION

This thing I call Jacob's Ladder (Figure 3 ) is from my book The Psychology of the Observer. This shows what I call Absolute Realization. You can take it however you wish, -- as a concept, or an established fact, or as nonsense. It is an example of three of the kinds of pyramids that I have been describing.

The first one has to do with the relative physical consciousness. It has again the line (AB) at the bottom. Our relative world is a line running always between opposites, -- negative and positive, black and white, good and bad. We are in a constant struggle to define things within that line. And of course this becomes ultimately impossible, because the line can be indefinite in some instances.

In the observation and study of that line we find what Benoit calls the compensatory point. This point is at neither extreme, but is somewhere in between. Somewhere in between there is a governing force, -- this is what I call the Umpire in human consciousness. In devout Christian circles the Conscience, -- perhaps. But it is an inner decision-making apparatus.

Figure 3 - Jacob's Ladder

Because we are always faced with the negative and the positive -- what to do and what not to do -- we get down to monumental decisions. Whether to kill or not to kill, to love or not to love. Whether to climb uphill or slide downhill. These decisions are made by the Umpire. The mistake that nearly everyone makes is in thinking that this Umpire is our infallible guide. But if you observe yourself in a meditative manner over a period of years, or even over a couple of months, you will discover that the Umpire is faulty.

It makes decisions occasionally that cause the person to get sick or sometimes even killed. Or, for example, allowing a person to fall in love with someone who has a bad disease. The Umpire collaborated in the decision, -- it said, "Yes, go ahead. That's true love."

When we first encounter the fact that our individual judgement is faulty or can be faulty, we remember that perhaps we have abandoned some intuition we should have listened to. This brings us again to another relative line (CD). Because we are still in a relative dimension we can only think along relative lines. So we have then a correspondence or a contemplation between higher intuitions. This doesn't refer necessarily to hallucinations or simple intuitions, -- it is a higher intuition which maybe inspires us to join a church, or follow some moral path of life that the Umpire didn't necessarily take care of.

We are always then, when we get to that level, at war between Saturday and Sunday. The Umpire is good enough until Saturday, but Sunday the higher intuition -- the Sunday of the mind so to speak -- takes over and says, "You may not have been doing the right things the last seven days." Because what you have been doing may be leading you into psychic trouble.

Now I guarantee you these diagrams are not just marks on a paper. If you sit down and face yourself in some sort of meditative manner, this is exactly what you'll find. You are always going to be stuck with two polar points. If a person talks about the Absolute, then somebody else immediately says, "Well, what is there with the Absolute? What created the Absolute?" It seems as if it's impossible for a human mind to conceive that there aren't two things. He is so used to dealing with this confusion of opposites.

In a meditational process a person observes that this is happening, just like we are observing it here. He starts to watch the workings of the Umpire and the higher intuition. He watches his mind doing somersaults. He watches himself going through cycles of foolishness and wisdom, cycles of breakdown and repair. Because he can't yet, even with the higher intuition, completely control his life and stop the waves.

And this man at point (E), becomes a very real creature. This is where a man is no longer living a somatic life. He is watching his own mind, -- which seems to be an impossibility when you first think about it, the mind watching the mind. But if you remember, I mentioned that the aim of the Zen student is to reach a point of no-mind, and that he has to do that with the conscious mind. Now if this were impossible or idiotic, somewhere along the line of a few thousand years they would have thrown it out. But it must have worked for a few people.

This fellow (at E) has risen to the point where he is concerned not so much with the body as he is with consciousness and the workings of his mind. He becomes obsessed with this, -- this is the center from which he works. But he again discovers that there is another relative line. He is watching the mind, but he is also aware of awareness. He is aware that there is something behind the mind, -- something that is seemingly almost indestructible. So he doesn't look with intuition anymore, he looks simply with the direct mind at awareness itself.

Now from this contemplation, the dashing back and forth across this upper line (EF), man arrives at an Absolute realization. He arrives at a point in which his head is on dead-center. There's no place left for it to go.

What happens when the head is on dead-center? Almost anything. My reason for putting it in the book was not so much for healing as for realization. It is more important to realize who you are and what you are than it is to heal someone.

So the first profit that comes from having your head on dead-center is an Absolute realization of yourself. And then of course, if the experience doesn't kill you, you might be able to do something on a mundane level.

Question: You said that when you were young you realized that with hypnosis you were only touching into a body of wisdom or power. What type of wisdom is most important to have?

Rose: Definition. I think that people presume that they are. And this presumption isn't adequate. As a child you exist in a certain life form in which everybody is protecting you, flattering you and patting you on the head, making you believe that you're wonderful. You come to presume that you are something, -- that which you are projected to be by your parents, friends, and so on.

When you go to school with that mood, a kid punches your nose. And this goes on all through life. If you talk to someone who is 60 years of age, they will tell you these stages. When you are 25, you look at the kid who is 15 and say that he's green behind the ears, -- he's not mature. This means that all these people do not have a just judgement of themselves. You can get to be 50 or 60 years of age and say, "This could go on right up to the last momentl I could be fooling myself about who I think I am."

This process is what I realize is the basis of true psychology. True psychology is knowing who you are. It isn't the knowledge of what drug to take to bring you down when you're high, or to lift you up when you're low. It's basically a permanent understanding of yourself. And when you have that permanent understanding, possibly there's a little dividend, -- you might know what you're here for.

Question: How do you think Edgar Cayce functioned? Where was he coming from?

Rose: I don't really know, -- I sort of bypassed Cayce there. But he is one of the miraculous phenomena. I visited the Cayce Foundation in Virginia Beach in 1954 or '55 and talked with Hugh Lynn Cayce. The place was almost inactive at the time, -- there was grass growing out of the roof-gutters. But I've heard that they have some new buildings there now.

I was amazed, of course, at some of the things he was doing. In TheAlbigen Papers I mentioned that what we need is an Edgar Cayce, not his readings. I think they're now trying to heal with his readings. As to where he got his information, I'm inclined to believe that in view of the fact that we can understand an item called space-tune, Edgar Cayce was cutting in on things that had already happened. Discoveries that had happened in space-tune but not in mortal time or sun-time.

I think he was able to go into a certain state of mind -- taking a little liberty possibly a state of no-mind -- where he reached that absolute pinnacle. But regardless, he allowed this information to come into his mind. In this respect he was a very unique person, a very miraculous type of magician, a very humble man. I don't think that there was any baloney about him at all. But the unfortunate part is that humanity can't duplicate him. What we should be trying to do is to duplicate him.

Question: Why do use the term magical instead of spiritual?

Rose: I avoid using the word spiritual in my lectures because basically the origin of even spiritual aspirations is the magical desire in every human being. And my second reason is that the word spiritual has a sort of, let's say, narcissistic association. It covers a multitude of rackets. I wouldn't want to wade through some of these spiritual movements with hip boots on, for fear of contamination.

Question: But there's only one Source.

Rose: We don't know that. This is something you have to prove. I use the phrase occasionally "surrender yourself to God," but not in a scientific sense. You'll notice that when I'm talking here I carefully avoid saying anything that I can't demonstrate. God is something that you can't prove by logic. In my estimation the only way to find God is by becoming, not by learning. Learning is the barrier between you and God.

Question: What are your books about? Do they cover a method of this meditative process?

Rose: Yes. My first book was written as a result of an experience I had. For quite a few years I didn't even conceive of trying to verbalize it, -- because it was an absolute type of experience, and how do you say that with words without confusing somebody and building another cult or code or set of words? So I dodged the issue for quite a few years. Then I just made notes, and finally compiled the notes and laid out a system.

Some of the analogies I use are quite simple. I say that you go about spiritual work or mind work in the same way you go about building a shed. If you want to build a shed you pick up a hammer and nails, and learn to drive the nails. You go down to the library if you wish and get books on carpentry. Of course when you get into what I call a higher form of mind work you've got the books, but you've got to wear hip boots because they are about ninety-nine percent phoney.

These things are all based on primitive belief. The human being from the time of primitive man had to believe, -- belief sustained him. Belief sustains people today. A lecture like this shakes people, -- it comes through to their mind that maybe they're not what they think they are. Or that maybe they are irrevocably lost unless they get ahold of themselves. When I'm lecturing I can see it on their faces. My own daughter said, "Dad, let me go. I've got games to play, -- I don't want to read your book." So if you're frightened, don't read the book.

Question: Have you had a chance to examine the contemporary healer Olga Worral? How do you feel that she operates?

Rose: I don't know too much about her. I talked to her once on the phone, when we were getting speakers for a symposium down at the farm, but we didn't have her price. Her husband, Ambrose Worral, I think was a very reliable healer, and I think that Olga herself has also healed people.

As I said, there are three ways generally used to heal. The first two of them use projection of energy from the healer, and if she did this she would have been worn out years ago. She's an old lady, and her husband did this up until the time he died, -- he was quite an old fellow.

When I was talking to her on the phone I explained the system to her and she said it was exactly what she had discovered. But she said the healing wasn't done in that manner -- they have meetings and church services -- it was done primarily with the suggestion of healing, and allowing the will of God to work on it if that was to be. So I'm inclined to believe that she was of the third category. It's a formula, incidentally, that people can use without actually having to go clear through to an Absolute realization. They are following it pretty much through blind faith, or by trial and error, -- something happens to work so they repeat it.

Question: Are you able to do this? Rose: At times it has happened. Question: Would you do it now?

Rose: No. Because whenever you're ever doing anything of this sort there is something that you have to wait for. Some of the people here have been down to my place and we have had demonstrations of it. For instance, there are times when I can see sickness inside a human body. But I can't do it all the time. I don't profess to be a healer, or go out on the marketplace and say that I have something to sell. But occasionally if I sit down with somebody I can see illness, -- and this has been confirmed by X-ray.

Here today what we have is a different structure, basically a lecture. If I did happen to see something though, I might tell you later on. Right now we don't have a healing type of group set up. I think that there are people around who have been healed, but for one thing I don't like to take claim for it. When you get to bragging or talking about what you do you don't have the same effectiveness. So I prefer to do just the things that come in front of me. I don't go out to look for it or give demonstrations.

A lot of this stuff came to me through hypnotic demonstrations, such as that case of regression, because with hypnosis you can tap people's minds. I know enough about it, and I can see how things happen with myself and with people around me, to know that they can happen. Let me put it this way: I think everybody has a function on earth, -- my main function is talking. My main transmission is reserved for knowledge transmission rather than for energy transmission. I decided that I would try to do that which was my best function.

One time we had a chautauqua here in this same church, several years ago. There were a couple of ladies here who had come down from Cleveland. One of them later wrote me a letter and said, "Mr. Rose, I think you are cheapening yourself to a certain degree by doing this when you could be teaching something else." The chautauqua was composed of things like astrology, Kirlian photography, and so on, and there wasn't much about mind science at all.

I don't know how she picked up that I had something else I was trying to do with my life. But I find out that more people are interested in astrology than in changing their nature or changing their state of being. If I were talking about astrology I could get fifty dollars a piece out of you. (laughter)

Question: There is a phenomenon that has been documented about seventy-five times, reported on a science program lately, termed spontaneous combustion of the human body. How do you fit this in?

Rose: I really don't know. I've heard those accounts of people being totally incinerated in a room, where even the foot would be burned but the shoe wouldn't. Possibly the rug would be scorched a little. There was a man burnt up inside a cab of a truck out West. He was driving a gasoline truck, I think. Nothing but the man burnt, with a little bit of scorching on the roof. The only conclusion the so-called scientists could come to was that he was a heavy boozer, he had a high content of alcohol, lit a cigarette, the cigarette lit the alcohol and away he went.

As I said, we are only standing on the edge of this enormous body of knowledge. And the reason it's so hard to get into it is that we're dealing with a contrary paradigm that says, "It can't happen." There are many books, validated books, written on these extraordinary phenomena. There's a Fortean Society (Charles Fort) that studies nothing but these occurrences that don't correspond to science, -- flying horses, fish falling from the sky in some remote dry area, and levitation.

I have seen levitation. It happened among the same group that did the regression. They were all responsible people, professional people, there was no money involved, no charge made for attending. And they got into levitating tables. I had my hand on the table when it rose from the floor, -- a big heavy oak table. And some strange things occurred to the table, -- it became like water, like it was floating under your hand. Whether that's some kind of illusion or not I don't know, but right before the thing left the floor it became almost like a living creature. You could ask it questions and it would kick one leg down violently on the floor according to a code, twice for "no," and so on, and rather accurately give you information. They (the tables) have been seen going all the way up to the ceiling where nothing would be left but fingertips on the bottom of the legs.

What do the physicists say about all this? "It's manipulation," they say. They've got a pat answer. For healings the medical men use the explanation "coincidence." The serious investigators are outnumbered tremendously. However, we are getting into a new era in psychiatry and psychology. Such as with Ornstein's book (The Psychology of Consciousness) on the two types of thinking which take place in the two hemispheres of the brain. It's a very good book, if you can get a copy of it.

There are many unusual phenomena that occur. (Some of which are reported in .Fate magazine, which I've subscribed to for over twenty years.) For instance the Flying Dutchman, the ghost ship of the sea. The reason I think that these do occur is that we are in a much more fluid universe than we think it is. My conclusion of course about the universe is that it is in the human mind. So there is a tremendous leeway for creation.

Question: Isn't the spiritual dimension a whole world of unexplored area? I was thinking that magic doesn't ask for a scientific explanation.

Rose: Well, I think that magic does ask for explanation. Maybe this would be the difference, -- the word spiritual has usually the connotation of faith and belief whereas magic, such as in the formulas for invocation, seems almost like chemistry. Two drops of A plus two drops of B result in X.

I would say that magic attempts to be very scientific. It's another language entirely, incidentally, but it seems to work. I use the word magic because it is the basis and the root. We can see where these other things such as religion and spirituality work in, somewhere in between, -- but down at the bottom it's the magical child, the child that's interested in magic, that first gets interested in these things.

At the other end, when you get into an Absolute situation where there is no possible way to manipulate things except under the will of something else, it is still magical. It is tremendously magical when it happens.

Question: Do you believe in angels and demons?

Rose: I do not disbelieve in them. This is another egotism of humanity, -- that we're the only fish in the sea, and what you can't see isn't there. I don't buy that. I think science has to deal with that which can't be seen. If it didn't you'd never have any information on viruses. You'd never be able to cure diseases, because we can't see viruses.

Some of these things can be seen and even photographed. Now I don't say whether they're angels or demons. I'm talking about William Crookes and his Titania. And Katie King, -- there were pictures taken of her at a materialization. If you can find a genuine materialization, I think that you can take pictures with infra-red cameras.

I have sure seen enough of them to know that they are separate intelligences and that they have form. I think that a lot of these things we consider to be demons are deceased people. Some of them I think were never people, because of their limited knowledge and the way that they acted. But there's no reason why the fauna and flora we see on this planet can't be represented by an equally mysterious type of fauna and flora in another dimension.

Question: If a person ever gets to a point where there's something higher -- a higher principle -- controlling him, does this remove his free will?

Rose: I don't think so. What ends is the belief, the illusion, that he can do as he pleases. But simultaneously with the arrival of that realization comes the knowledge that what he wishes isn't important. It's like with alchemy. You start out trying to make gold out of lead. Then you study, study, study every science on the face of the earth. Then you discover the truth about yourself, and the gold is no longer needed. The purpose of the study of magic in nearly every case is abandoned on down the road. The purpose at the start is always selfish, -- it was with me at least. I don't know how many unselfish people there are, but when I was young I had very selfish purposes. I wanted to be big.

Question: Do you believe that good and evil are real beings, fighting for supremacy?

Rose: No. There is no such thing as good and evil. Question: Would you say positive and negative then?

Rose: In our relative thinking, yes. But you transcend that rather rapidly when you start to study the Umpire. You see that it is a human evaluation. For example, it's good not to attack your fellowman, because he may shorten your life span. But death in itself may not be evil, it may be liberation.

There's a book by Koestler (Darkness at Noon) which tells of his experiences in jail in Spain during the revolution. He told of the soldiers every day taking out ten prisoners to shoot them, -- because they didn't want to feed them, I think. A fifteen year-old boy had been picked up with these revolutionaries. They were taking the boy out to shoot him, and he realized suddenly that his life was over. Koestler describes the priest as being somewhat greasy and drunken, -- maybe he had to be drunk to do his job. The boy shouted for his mother and the priest said, "Don't complain so much, you're being liberated. This is your freedom." He was being liberated from the relative dimension and the beliefs which run with it. So maybe the priest knew something.

Question: In the face of all the self-annihilation around us, what is the relevance or significance of this philosophical type of thinking?

Rose: Do you mean, -- do we think we have an answer to this seeming madness?

Question: I was hoping that somewhere in all of this, the people who are into it might think that over time it may make a qualitative difference in the way we live.

Rose: Richard Bucke wrote a book (Cosmic Consciousness) in which he did a survey of the people who had reached cosmic consciousness. His statistic is that one in a million will experience it. Now I give talks on cosmic consciousness, and my book is on cosmic consciousness. So out of the two hundred million people in the United States, I should have at most two hundred listeners. But I know that there have been five thousand copies of the book purchased, so perhaps there are far more people interested than we think.

Now a lot of people come at me very bluntly when I'm lecturing and say, "What are you doing for humanity?"

And my answer is, "Nothing." I have no time for humanity, -- I have time for only a small segment of humanity. I'm trying to specialize. I believe that it is going to take all of my strength and the rest of my life to contact those people whom I think I should contact in my lifetime. And that is all I can do.

As far as the workings of humanity -- the wars, the strife, this wave of suicides we're having in the country -- behind it all there is a chief engineer who has everything under control. The machinery is going according to blueprint, although from where we stand things don't look so hot.

The thing is, -- don't get into where the violence is, to where the explosions are. Don't associate with trying to change the world. I started lecturing back in 1968, and I ran into thousands of young people at different universities. They couldn't wipe their noses, and they were out to change the world. And by now very many of them are already dead, and the world is still going on its own mad course. So we have seen which way it will go.

I think that the best thing a person can do is take time out to find out who is "being had." Because the evidence is that we're "being had."

Question: Would you tell me something about your books? Are they instructional?

Rose: Yes. We have some flyers that give a pretty good description in two pages. If you have a specific question about direction I'll try to answer you, but to give you a synopsis of the book is difficult because of the subject material. It gets into how to engage in an abstract study, how to approach an abstract question, such as life, death, thought, identity, who you are.

But it can be done. The book demonstrates that it can be done. And this is the formula followed by Huang Po, or Buddha, or whoever arrives. We don't know much about Christ's early years, but he probably followed it as well.

Question: About that incident of lifting the truck, and the fact that weightlifters may go through years of training to get to that point, or maybe never arrive, -- I was wondering exactly what is the relation of effort to accomplishing things? Is the effort in overcoming the paradigm that says you can't do it?

Rose: I think there is a limit to what you can lift, and you can't go beyond that. If a locomotive had been lying on top of that young woman I don't think we would have been able to pick it up. But I think that there is a tremendous plus factor that is not accountable to medical science.

Question: I wonder why there seems to be such a struggle to know oneself?

Rose: It has to do with the ascending and descending arrows in the diagram. The force that goes down is just as powerful if not more powerful than the one that goes up. You have to take care of what I call the upward vector, which is what a man becomes. He becomes a vector or a direction of energy.

The great vector in life is back toward the earth. Nearly everybody is fighting tooth and nail to go back into the earth, and at the same time trying to keep from going back into the earth. So between these two efforts there's not much left for going up into the creative realm.

Nature drags us down. We're like the grain in the field, -- you reach a certain age and the grain comes to a head, the leaves immediately get dry, and your purpose is arrived at. You realize what you are, -- you're a cornstalk that is produced and dies, that's all.

Question: Do you think that yoga is good preparation for forming this vector?

Rose: Yoga is one of the magical systems, yes. Raja yoga is very good. Of course there are different schools. And there are a lot of pretensive raja yoga schools that use techniques of visualization that I don't approve of. I don't believe that you should imagine things. If you want to put something into your head, put something in that's real. Are you familiar with what they call darshan, -- producing a certain image up between the eyes, deifying the guru and that sort of thing? I think that these are detrimental.

But there are meditative forms which are useful. And you can't do just one thing, one little ritual, -- you have to use combinations.

I was into yoga for years, from the time I was twenty-one through twenty-eight years of age. And nothing was happening. I became almost angry, -- I thought it was absurd. I travelled all over the country looking at these various movements, and I began to think that if they're not out for sex they're out for money, -- there's no real truth to them. Then I realized that there was a grain of truth in each one of these movements. The intuitions of men will not follow a completely phoney path for long. This is the difficult thing, to find the grain of truth. But you pick out the grain and throw the garbage away, -- this is the point.

For instance, if you simply sit in a certain posture the mind becomes at peace, and you can develop a certain ability. Now, -- what is happening inside the head? This neuro-transmitter system that I was talking about begins running evenly. The graph of the energy is not bouncing up and down. Consequently there's no trauma or restlessness connected with it, after you train yourself to do it.

While you're in that position you can do a tremendous lot of thinking. You can take in a lot of information in regard to the original direction. This is the time to ruminate, to chew over. Wisdom is inside ourselves. We've got billions of factors in those billions of cells. So all we have to do is to keep pushing this material through the computer.

The memory bank of the computer contains everything you have ever read or heard. So to get the answer from that, you continually attack the computer with one or two words: "Why? What? Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? Let's come up with an answer. Let's get away from all this fiction." This is the message you have for yourself. "Come on, we've been into this fiction before. We've discounted that once and for all. We've found out that it's absurd."

For instance, -- you don't pay a man for spirituality. This is one of the yardsticks. I don't believe that there should be any rackets run, because it's too important an undertaking. It's the highest relationship between one human being and another.

Consequently it's serious business, but people don't treat it that way.

Question: Have you investigated many of these New Age movements?

Rose: I think that there's a big mistake that people are making these days, in relation to this. (You ought to know how it's put forth, because everything isn't valid.) The big movement that is sweeping the spiritual and mental worlds today is something that is a cross between Fritz Perls and old-time religion meetings. Fritz Perls hugged everybody, and so did the old-time religions. Except Fritz Perls got into it sexually, -- that was his "method" of curing people.

The emphasis is on trying to make people feel good, rather than looking for honest answers. Consequently there's a big direction taken today: "Don't criticize anybody." But you've got to realize that your future and your lifetime are too valuable for this. You've only got so many years in a lifetime. If you start off when you're five years of age, you've got only seventy years to solve a problem which as an intelligent human being you must solve. You have to find out who is suffering. So we don't have time for people who are going to thrust themselves on us because they too might have a good point.

So under the basis of the pretense of not criticizing this or not criticizing that, -- you won't be getting anything done. Or you will accept the mediocre when something real might be around the corner, or might be equally available. I think that there's a tremendous complacency today, and I think it's born out of the fear of violence. The pseudospiritual movement today is oriented toward man instead of toward wisdom. It's nice to be oriented toward man, but not his body, not to the economy, and soon.

Question: Why don't you use the terms "soul," and "enlightenment?"

Rose: There are certain words which are pretentious. If I use the word God, then I am immediately subject to another Question: "How do you know?" So I avoid these words because one man's God is another man's Devil.

To me the term enlightenment refers to an Absolute realization, or the total realization that you can come to. Now about the word soul, -- I don't use it to mean something of a gossamer quality that floats around like a ghost. I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have something more real. The inner person or capital "S" Self is more real. The universe that we enter at death with that Self is far more real than this. What we have right now is a big long line of thinking, -- bouncing around on this thing of relativity. Whereas in a direct-mind experience of the Absolute, you only experience oneness, not multiplicity, not shades-of.

So I do believe in a soul, but I prefer to let people find it through their mind. The perfect psychology will find the soul. This is my reason for showing you these diagrams. The perfect psychology will take you to God. And I'm not making a pitch, -- I don't believe in making religious pitches. I believe in working from a fact basis.

Question: I still don't understand why you don't use the word God.

Rose: Well, I don't deny that there is a superior engineering. But when you use the word God you might be defining it according to somebody's pet theory. Everybody uses the word, but people can define it in very different ways. And some of them can seem to be pretty strange.

We could take a poll of the people in the room today to try to get their ideas on God. Of course we would be getting only vocal answers and not their true meanings, -- we don't know what people really mean. But if we could ask people their definitions of God and get their meanings, and compare them with our own, we would find nearly all of them different.

Some of the people would be thinking of a very personal creature who actually has a telescope and is watching every sparrow that falls, and somehow being able -- because someone said he was able -- to watch all the sparrows. Now I think that all the sparrows are watched, but it's by virtue of the creating of machinery which takes care of everything. The Hindus saw the machinery and called it karma. Certain laws were put into effect and it all works like a big piece of machinery. Of course we say, "God is watching this." Well... the blueprint which the engineer made may be working.

And then there is another line of science which says, "Hey, -- maybe we can sneak in something while he isn't watching. Maybe some of these things aren't being scrutinized very carefully." This is the school of magic. A lot of people think that they can, despite the plan, get hi there and pull some tricks. But this doesn't really work. It's strictly ego.

Question: What does your kind of psychology say about insanity?

Rose: I don't believe in insanity. I believe insanity to exist in a physical breakdown of the brain only. If somebody splits you with an ax, you're not going to think as clearly, -- you may be a schizophrenic. I'm sure that a lot of you have had the experience of going directly into the mind of a person. If you have ever been with a person who is mentally sick and you pick up what they are thinking, you'll know that they are just as aware as you are. But then: communication method is crippled.

Question: Why is that?

Rose: I don't know. Most of them were born that way, but sometimes it is caused by physical breakdown. I do not believe in mental insanity. We've got a few psychologists and psychiatrists who say the same thing, but they don't elaborate on it properly. Szasz is one, -- he thinks a lot of it is pretension.

I just say that people who can't help themselves can't help themselves. It's not insanity, it's just that the doors and the windows aren't open, -- they are inside of a closed structure. And it's only by direct mind that you can understand them. This is the reason why I maintain that until the psychologists and psychiatrists develop some kind of direct-mind intuitional approach, they're wasting their tune and the sick person's time. You've got to walk a mile in their moccasins to know them. The scientific doctor or psychiatrist tries to be objective. He tries to observe and catalogue exterior symptoms alone.

Question: Is there a tie-in between the spark gap you mentioned and the concept of the triangulation of things? Is the stretch between the negative and the positive like a spark gap?

Rose: No. The spark gap is just more or less a biological structure.

When we talk about the human mind we always wonder where the memory is. Some people say that the memory is in the DNA molecule, in the genes. Maybe so, but where is thought? What is happening? Where does thought occur? We are all thinking right now, -- what is going on electrically? And I maintain that all of that living (and thinking is living) which continues until you go to sleep, occurs right there in the synapse.

Question: After all your studies, what's your feeling of how Jesus Christ got his miracle and healing powers? Can you rely on the historical accounts?

Rose: The stories are useful as a point to refer to. The stories, as in the stories of other men such as Kapila who lived before him, show one of a holy man. By holy I mean that he went through the necessary disciplines in order to achieve his power. I have no answers on whether or not he was God. I don't know.

Incidentally, he said to his Apostles, "What I do you also can do." I think that this is synonymous with saying, "What I am you also are." I am quite convinced that each man is a finger of the sun. The celestial Sun, an Absolute Reality. The Atman and the Brahman, -- each person. That's the reason you find God by looking inside, not by looking in a book. Looking in the book is inspiration. Really finding yourself is finding where that Being touches you. And then when you find it, -- you find that it is you. I'm not saying that it is a part of you, I say that it is you.

Well, I want to thank all of you. It's been wonderful, -- I hope to see you again.

==END ==
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[[Category:1980s]]
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== Data Template ==

Also see NOTES ON BETWEENNESS here: [[Notes-On-Betweenness-from-DME]]



{{Recording Data
|record-date = Direct-Mind Experience TOC says Columbus 1980, no month or day
|location = Columbus
|number-tapes = Need to locate tape
|source =
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s =
|total-time =
|transcription-status = Need to compare book (this page) with tape
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf =
|published-book = Direct-Mind Experience
|published-website =
|remarks = This page was erroneously dated 2/15/1981 - now changes
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|url-direct-mind =
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== Notes ==
Note January 26, 2023. This page is not indexed properly in the Search feature. Other lecture on DME do appear, so it's not a category issue. Maybe try to rebuild index. See https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Rebuildtextindex.php

Note January 13, 2023. This lecture has tweaks (making PDF) so should be reconciled.

This page is the combination of 2 pages from the old database:

A) 351 1777 20140713224315 0 1980-Betweenness-Columbus-from-DME

B) 39 2419 20140713224315 0 1980-Psychology-of-Miracles-aka-Betweenness-Columbus

Talk page is this:

C) 130 1459 20120105214937 1 1980-Psychology-of-Miracles-aka-Betweenness-Columbus << Talk

This is from the html version, which included "Notes on Betweenness", moved to here: [[Notes-On-Betweenness-from-DME]]

The only date given in to book is "1980" - this is printed in the hardback edition.

Needs subheaders and formatting

Has an image - need to accommodate it somehow

Link to images:

First http://direct-mind.org/images/1981-0215-Betweenness-Akron.jpg

Second http://direct-mind.org/images/1981-0215-Betweenness-Akron-2.jpg

== Transcription from Direct-Mind Experience ==

LECTURE ON BETWEEN-NESS

T.O.C.

Diagrams

Fig 1 - Triangulation

Fig 2 - Healing

Questions and Answers

First question

I would like to talk about Between-ness but first I would like to make a few notes. Between-ness is an art and it is also understood by some as being a high form of magic.

Since it is strictly a mental function or operation it is first necessary to know something about the mind and correct mental posture. We find that most people do not try to think straight. They are moved by emotions and beliefs rather than by selfless introspection and external observations on the results of the paradigms which mankind creates.

Paradigms, language patterns or philosophy patterns are not the result of a conspiracy. The professional conspiracy to misuse the paradigms, is the afterthought. The paradigm or pattern was for centuries, only a workable adaptation.

Regardless of the source of the paradigm, -- it has taken us a long way off course from the original intentions of simply, -- primitive language.

As civilization progressed, different paradigms appeared in different parts of the world, and these paradigms dealt with different religious, psychological and therapeutic approaches.

The paradigms in the past were so respected and trusted that wars were fought to protect ours and eliminate others. But down through the ages philosophers have gone back to those primitive life-styles, to rediscover the context of other paradigms which effected some cures more easily than did our highly "scientific" chemotherapy.

Our paradigm has even made these other paradigms illegal. We've made it illegal to heal people or cast spells by these methods without a doctor's education. Their paradigm may not affect us if we do not indulge in it, but then again it may be stronger than our own if they can think that strongly on it. Between the AMA and the barristers' association we put them out of business.

The more I look into this in the thirty or forty years since I've been in college the more I realize that psychology is failing to discover or understand phenomena in the past that can be very practical and very useful. Recently someone sent to us some books on Sufism. I previously never had much of an interest in Sufism because, I suppose, I associated it with dervishes, and dervishes were not fully understood then. Idries Shah wrote a book on Sufism from which I copied this. In the first pages of it he mentions al-Ghazali. Al-Ghazali refers to a book the al-Undinabi. The title of the book doesn't matter. The message is what matters.

"To the sick man sweet water tastes bitter in the mouth." If I would have read that at another time I would have thought, -- So what! What does that mean? A sick man can hallucinate, or whatever. I wouldn't have normally drawn the conclusion that the real meaning was that the sick man is now in a different paradigm. When he's sick his whole paradigm becomes reversed, and he's very capable of now believing the opposite of what he believed when he was well.

Shah goes on to say that this could very well be taken as Ghazali's motto. "Eight hundred years before Pavlov he pointed out and hammered home, often in engaging parables, and sometimes in startling modern words the problem of conditioning," (which we thought we had discovered and were going to execute on people to make a better world.) "In spite of Pavlov and the dozens of books and studies on human behaviorism since the Korean War, the ordinary student of the mind is unaware of the power of indocrination. One of the most striking peculiarities of contemporary man is that while he now has abundant scientific evidence to the contrary, he finds it extremely difficult to understand what his beliefs are. That his beliefs are by no means always linked with either his intelligence, his culture or his values. Therefore he is almost unreasonably vulnerable to indocrination."

We submit to an indocrination that seems to go opposite to our intelligence and just doesn't make sense. We might go into the army. Why would you accept the indocrination? It's because the guy says it's easier that way. If you want to do good in business, you go down and join the local church, but your intelligence tells you otherwise. I remember one time I was in San Antonio, Texas. I had gone down there to interview a witchdoctor, to see what his paradigm was. I ran into Reverend Green from Ohio who had written a thesis on telepathy and ESP. He was a minister and had written his doctorate on it. He still had his church and his parish and I talked to some of his people there. One fellow was very friendly and intelligent. He was a prominent businessman in San Antonio. I asked him, "Why do you go to church?" He said, "I go to church to take my kids to church." I said, "Well, why do you take your kids to church?" He said, "To keep them out of the penitentiary!" I don't know how many people have the same opinion, but this is a good way to keep the children out of the penitentiary.

How many people go to church to find the answer? I was amazed. At one time I thought that people who had very astute or complex thinking processes or computers, would not be able to rest until they applied that computer to the maximum problem, especially if they were in the business of theology. But they don't. They go to church and they submit to the indocrination. There are hundreds of doctrines, hundreds of churches, hundreds of denominations and nearly everyone says they are all false except their own. They all follow the same path of indocrination, -- a little singing, a little repetition, a bit of comfortable atmosphere with music or incense. The thing is to get people to function in "army fashion," so to speak.

Shah goes on, "Indoctrination in totalitarian societies is something that is desirable provided it furthers the beliefs of such societies. In other groupings (now, we're talking about philosophy) its presence is scarcely even suspected." This is what makes most everyone vulnerable to it. We don't suspect it. We just hope that everything goes smoothly. "Ghazali's work not only predates but exceeds the contemporary knowledge of these matters. Since the time of his writing, informed opinion is split between (1) whether indoctrination, either overt or covert, is desirable or otherwise, and (2) whether it is inescapable or not." We've got to the point where perhaps we can't escape it.

If you want a job selling insurance you have to submit to so many weeks of conditioning in which they train you to say the right things. You go through so many possible situations and will be told what to say in each situation.

Ghazali also points out that what people call a state of belief may be an obsession. He points out in Sufi terms that it is not inescapable, but that it is essential for people to be able to identify it. Now, this is the sad situation we're in, -- and that psychology is not leading us out of, but it is leading us into. We can't identify when we are snowed.

Here's noble science that looks at religion and says, "You people are as unreasonable as hell, you're dreaming!" In turn, it's using that same tactic in creating a profession, a profession with its own paradigm and almost a wall of invulnerable protection. The paradigm becoming so complex you can't even discuss it unless you get a master's degree, and by the time you get your master's degree you think like the sergeant in the army in that you'd better believe it because you're going to have to eat from that table.

The reason I'm mentioning this is not so much to point out the present situation of psychology, as to point out the miracles such as the simple Aborigine performed. He did them because his psychology was pure. His paradigm was simple. There was no doubletalk. We make fun of the guy who builds totem poles. But that's all we have in our scientific world, -- paradigms, like totem poles. And we're not going to get anywhere with our thinking. It is only after we're able to -- as Idries Shah says -- to identify, that we free ourself and we move on and we can find a conciliatory principle. And from that find some wisdom, and from that find these power mechanisms, that stop the clock... that heal people. I know this may be a little bit difficult for you to tie together.

I gave a similar lecture in Pittsburgh a week or so ago. The group arranged a radio interview to advertise the coming lecture. If you ever feel foolish, it's trying to explain a philosophic point to someone when you only have three minutes to go on the air to understand what "Between-ness" means. This lady came up to me and said, "We're supposed to ask you some questions on the air. What is this Between-ness? Should we ask you about that?" I said, "Sure, that's all right." She said "Well what is it?" I said, "Have you got two hours? Maybe longer?"

It dawned on me that maybe I could say something. I said, "Have you ever rolled dice?" She said, "Yes." I said, "Okay, then you know what Between-ness is." Any man who has rolled dice or played poker has always had it in the back of his head that if he held his head a certain way, he'd win.

This is the instinctive feeling that every child has, that nature is perverse. That if you hold your head the right way you will come out on top. Every human being has this peculiar thing. I was living in an orphanage as a child. I was amazed at the kids who would put their noses up against the window -- it was this tune of year -- winter, and they would have visions of making a snowman and watching a few flakes come down through the air. So they were kind of agonized into coaxing it to snow.

One little fellow was chanting, "Snow, snow, go away. Come again another day."

I said to him, "What's the matter? Are you crazy?! We all want it to snow!" He said, "If you want it to snow, it won't snow." If "it" knows you're indifferent, it will snow.

So you get the point? Thought. No-thought. Creation. The child's mind has it. They don't know the laws. They don't know the manipulations, but they know intuitively something is there if they work it right. And this is right down the line, -- of Between-ness.

I mentioned that this occasionally gets into the minds of people who write plays. I saw a movie. I think it was Cameron Mitchell who played the part. That's the only fellow I can remember out of the play, it was on television. I was curious to know who the author was and how he came up with this, -- this knowledge of magic. This Cameron Mitchell was a drunk who staggered into a real plush casino in the Mediterranean.

He's got a dollar and he wants to bet it on the roll of the dice. There's an old man there who is a sort of a host. He says, "You can't bet a dollar here!" Most of the people just ignored him and brushed him aside. The old man says, "You can't bet a dollar here. One chip costs a thousand dollars."

The drunk says, "Oh, excuse me." He staggers away and goes over to a slot machine and comes back with a thousand dollar chip.

He says, "Can I bet now?", and they said "Yes." So he puts his single chip down, -- but he recites a bit of doggerel. The doggerel is almost meaningless, but as the dice were rolled he would recite this doggerel and the dice would come up on a certain point. He rolls the dice again and he wins. I don't know how many times he rolled it, of course we're dealing in fiction, but he would double his money each time and before he moved away from that table, he had a million dollars.

He's still drunk and a sleek-looking lady there says, "I go with the winner." So he gets his glass full of champagne and they show him staggering off. The old fellow who advised him he couldn't bet a dollar is telling him now to take it easy, that he'd already drank a lot.... So he's going into another room, supposedly to be alone with this lady, -- if that's the proper inference to use. But he goes in there and drops dead. That was the climax of the story.

The realization finally was, -- he was not a million-dollar man. These other people were gambling hundreds of thousands a day and they could do it and it fit into their paradigm. What happened to him was that he used a paradigm that a child might use to win a million dollars and he didn't have the capacity. I was so amazed by this piece of drama, this simple show. Whoever had written it knew that there was a law someplace, that there is a law. This drunk created a very complete paradigm and the only way he could do it was to be in no-thought. He was drunk. He was just in the right degree of drunkenness.

How many people do you know have told you "I won two thousand bucks, or three hundred bucks and I don't know how I did it, I was drunk!," or that they never expected to win or under some strange circumstances they would pick this up?

The purpose of bringing up this drama was that there is a method of doing things, of changing, in changing material events. Max Freedom Long in his book on Huna mentions that the Hunas believe that the human being possesses immense amounts of voltage. I often use the term "quantum energy," which I believe in. I use the word "voltage" occasionally for the want of a better word, but I never thought that it could be measured on the electroencephalograph, but this would be in "mini-volts." Long maintains the voltage is very high but the amperage is very low and ineffective. It doesn't hurt you.

I read an article about the discovery of the "so-called" three brains of man, the neo-cortex, and the other brain, -- the sympathetic part that has emotional aspects to it, and then the final properties of the cerebrum with its logical aspects. He claims that the Hunas believed this, -- centuries ago. The histories of these peoples, both Hunas and Aborigines, may go back 16,000 years. So this is a psychological system that is tremendously old. He just states flatly and drops it that the human being produces some two to three million volts and I'm wondering if he really means some sort of low-amperage current. He goes on to say that this is proven by science.

The whole thing is that the knowledge that these peoples had of the human mind is something that we really haven't caught up to yet. Freedom Long and Brigham before him spent two entire lifetimes just investigating the language, the Hawa-iaan language, to discover their secrets. The secrets weren't written down, they were only given out in initiation. In both the Aborigines and the Hunas. Another person taught them.

There are a lot of people today claiming that they have the Huna knowledge but others claim it is lost. Long claims that when they did away with the practice of it by law, that the people then just neglected it. That it was totally lost.

What is necessary to arrive at this sort of power?... When you are facing an old paradigm that is negative or destructive, let's say one filled full of words such as "disease" or "cancer" and you're trying to supplant it with a paradigm without those terms... this is where your difficulty comes in. I think that any society that does such would have to almost do as the Hunas did. They would have to find themselves an island. They would have to find a place where they wouldn't be overrun and their whole belief-system endangered. The next thing would be to, possibly, only transmit this to a very few people. I don't think it would be written in books. This is the other thing. We like to put everything in textbooks, see, we like to say "Here's how you push the buttons."

In other words, the conditions with which you have success along these lines are first, you must have the confidence or belief of your audience. Christ couldn't perform miracles in his home town, no one would believe him. This is another thing people overlook in the Bible. The whole thing is looked at as "divine healing" but if it was divine healing it wouldn't matter if it was his home town or not.

It says, "He did not do many works in his town and he left there." He went elsewhere. The form of belief depends on your success, because if the other paradigm is real strong you're going to have an audience that pays no attention to you.

The second thing is the capacity of the students that are taught in accordance with their ability to understand. In other words, only the people with "ears" can hear. Not just students, but the people who are going to be "adepts," so to speak. The third thing is a small circle of people who will share the understanding and knowledge which is derived from direct inner experience. It goes back to the point where you are able to develop, or capture the "inside" for answers. In other words, just not specified answers, or not just any answers, which desires serve up.

When you start to look at these different movements with the new paradigms, you find that this is a common denominator in them. Christ and Buddha both came with a message. Both had to find the environment for belief. They had to leave their home town, so to speak. They had to find a larger mass of students than what they had in the inner circle. There were at least seventy disciples. There were only twelve apostles. The percentages of people who have ears still aren't the percentages of people who have the ability to act. In other words, he had seventy students who could hear but only twelve that could act, those that carried the load. This applies to anything. You can't have a single Huna-miracle man. I don't think it would be effective. You can't have a single Aborigine-shaman. They lived together in the same place in Australia, talked the same language, believed the same things, telepathically communicated, accurately, very accurately. They knew when their relatives were sick, they knew when their relatives had died and they didn't have to go and see it. They didn't have to go through the mail. They knew it immediately. If you were around them they would show it. They would say that they had a death, a cousin had died or something.

I'm going to get back to psychology and then if you have some questions....

Belief is functional to cultural survival. We like to think that psychology is above belief, that psychology is only going to deal in proof. But belief is germane to our culture. Psychology deals with all the attributes of our behavior.... Current psychology doesn't believe in the "science of the psyche." The 1930 definition of psychology in Merriam Webster dictionary was the "science of the psyche." "Psyche" and the word "logos" come from the Greek. The "logos" stands for science. In recent definitions of psychology you only have "the science of the reactions of the mind taken together" or something of that sort. I've noticed occasionally a dictionary will add the other definition also, that it is a science of the mind and not just behaviorism, not just man's actions taken collectively.

I think again that this is an attempt to change the paradigm to suit the inability of the "witchdoctor." The witchdoctor can't cure and what he can't cure he leaves out of the dictionary. You don't have a psyche, so you don't have to cure it. I maintain that belief is the tremendous functional part of life, of everybody's life. You can't apply reason to everything. To give an example, the psychologists themselves are at war with each other. If you don't believe me then read Voth, who wrote The Castrated Family, and Gross, who wrote The Psychological Society. These people come right out and say we're miles off base. That we're destroying the American family with our present psychology. On the other hand you have an author who destroyed his own daughter by putting her hi a glass cage, and yet pretends to be the authority on who should monitor the behavior of everyone in the country and maybe the world.

I maintain the reason for this difficulty is the refusal to admit the subjective part of psychology, that's all. It is the refusal to accept the subjective part of man. It's possible inside your head you've got something besides spirochetes. There might be a radio set in there that picks up intuition, or messages, or something from another dimension even. Incidently, the psychology of the Aborigine works. It works, he proves it. Our psychology doesn't work. What happens in psychology, inevitably, is that there is an attempt to blame society for an individual's erratic acts. Some individuals pick it up very avidly and say "Okay, I'm not to blame. Society is to blame." And he goes out and he commits a crime. Or maybe he just gets unemployed, fails to take interest in society. So then he gets hungry and someone tells him he better go down to the mental health depot so the people with canned answers or canned advice can tell you what to do, or get you into a mental institution and leave you stay there until you get yourself straightened out. So he goes down to the psychologist and the psychologist tells him, "You know what's wrong with you! You've got to take responsibility for your actions!" This is the first thing they will tell him. "You have to take responsibility for your actions." And this is just the opposite of what he's lead his life by. Which is that man isn't responsible for anything. Society is responsible for everything. If you feel like getting drunk, get drunk. Man shouldn't worry about anything. If you feel like being unmoral, be immoral... see? Don't worry about it because it's just an experience and you'll "broaden." Of course if you get broad enough you might terminate. If you take in too much experience, it could be fatal. The point is that there is conflict in authoritative (professional) advice.

The thing is that there are no real logical remedies in the field of psychology or psychiatry. Most of them will flatly admit it. Read Seabrook's book Asylum. That was about Bellevue, a famous asylum in the East. Where the therapists candidly admitted that they just allow the patients to stay there until they cured themselves. They saw certain degrees of capability and they'd move them from one ward to another. They had "seven degrees of capability." You know. If they could wash their face, they'd put them in with the others who could wash their face. They'd get closer and closer to the exit door. Incidently, William Seabrook was an author who was committed there for alcoholism so he was able to make some pretty objective observations.

I believe by the same token that psychology has a tremendously stabilizing effect on religion, as well. For instance, somebody gave us systems like Zen where the whole spiritual search is not done by reading texts from the Bible. It's done by looking inside yourself. A system of self-analysis. And when you reach the end result of that self-analysis you've got the same answer that the person had, who followed dogmatic beliefs and also had the conviction that there was a supreme being of which he was a part. I think the main difficulty is the polarity between true psychology and religion. In too many cases, they refuse to recognize each other.

I'm not going to burden you with too many of these quotations. I read one of the oldest authorities on yoga which is Patanjali. You go back and read this and it is pure psychology. It's about correct actions. You go back to Buddha. What does Buddha talk about? Discrimination. Correct action. This is psychology. Strangely enough, I don't believe you'll find a single lunatic among the Aborigines of Australia. I don't think there's any of them that have an aberration. But, we've fitted this insanity-item very neatly into our paradigm.

To get back to this word Between-ness. I use this word because, like I said, -- there is no other. This is the key-word for the use of a magical system. There's a waiting for the mind, a waiting for events. If you take a certain turn, this is part of it. When Christ was at the wedding feast this was brought up. His mother tried to get him to serve the guests some wine and I think she implied that he could produce some by magic. He turned her down momentarily. He said, "My time hasn't come yet." This kind of stuck in my head. Why did he do this? If he had this divine power it should have been available all the time. When you get into this business of observing how people function, the Aborigine doesn't just throw a boomerang. He waits until a certain tune occurs, he calls it "dreamtime." In that dreamtime a certain thing has to occur. Of course since he lays no claim to divine help he has a very simple explanation for it. This intuition of cognition, all of us have. There is stuff in each of our lives or in our neighbors that we hear about that shows that the human mind is in touch, -- the Aborigine calls it the "elder brother" or something of that sort. We call it the "guardian angel." My idea is that the human mind has to contact something else other than its own memory bank or computer. This happens accidently enough that we can say with validity that under certain conditions the human mind can contact other dimensions. Or another space-tune dimension, or a far region of this dimension. Another space-time episode.

In this we have deja vu experiences. There are a lot of experiences that are listed as deja vu. Where you see a wreck before it happens. You don't get on the airplane because you sense something's wrong. We were talking earlier about the bridge that collapsed in West Virginia. Certain people didn't go on, -- but others did because their time had come, so to speak. Intuitional knowledge of deaths in the family and dreams that are precognitive. These dreams that are precognitive seem to indicate that there is such a thing as space-time. Something that can be viewed in the present manifestly has to be happening then. For that person it is happening then.

There is a whole background of so-called healings and magic that has come down to us through the centuries that we have ignored. I think that when you look at these as a whole instead as isolated incidents you begin to get a picture of something.

Before I close I want to give you three factors that true psychology can produce for us. When I talk about psychology I'm not talking about current conventional psychology, I'm talking about the true analysis of things. First of all psychology can give us a better look into our daily lives and we can see where we're not harmonizing. The second thing is that psychology is a validation for metaphysics, for intuition and for religion. The intuition predicts. The intuition postulates a certain psychic condition which science or psychology as a science later proves. I'm thinking now of ESP. ESP was pretty much frowned upon until the time J.B. Rhine did his experiments with psycho-kinetics. Here's a case where ESP became valid or scientifically acceptable as the result of science. That is, -- psyche became a science.

A third thing is the realization of tremendous psychological powers. It isn't just mind-reading. It isn't just the ability to predict the stock exchange or the lottery. There is an ability to change the condition of matter. It's a very simple method of the way you approach it with your mind. I maintain that the formula lies in this bit of triangulation. It is simply said but it's not simply done. Yet there is enough evidence to show we don't have the limit yet. It seems that you can't put a leg back on a person but, yet, there have been tremendously larger enterprises that have been carried out.

Colin Wilson mentions this thing in his Mind Parasites. If you ever get a chance, read it. It is a book of fiction but, again, it is a tremendous message which the author puts down in the form of a fictional story of what he supposes might be, -- preferring not to try to put it down in scientific and mathematical form. The witnessing of the minor things that people do -- if you want to call them "minor," such as the Hunas or miraculous cures -- I think are only the tip of the iceberg. I think that the individual is able to affect a tremendously wider scope. I don't know how far it could go. Nobody knows until they go there. This is my angle for the psychology department, this direction of what we call psychology today. If it could just take a turn or amend the paradigm.

Well, if you've got any questions I'd like to swing over to that...

Question: (Indistinct)

Rose: You have to see it. I know that. There is a big gap here. We're talking about something that is entirely new to you. This started out for me, and for some other people, -- some of whom are present here... this started out in our philosophic group as a "rapport session" but often ended up as a healing. The healing was not intended. I don't intend to be a healer. I don't intend to get a reputation as a healer, because you can't do too many things at once. I have a message to deliver and if I can find the words for that I'll be doing my job well. I don't want to break out into many things. These things do happen. There is a way to do it which makes them effective.

Question: When is Frank going to speak?

Rose: When is Frank going to be here? Two weeks. The speaker who will be here two weeks from now. When I first began talking here in Pittsburgh, Frank and his wife would come down every weekend and we would have a sitting. They taught school and on weekends they would come down and have a sitting. We would call it a "rapport meeting." Waiting for mental realizations to occur. There is nothing "weird" about these sittings, they've been doing them for centuries. The early Pentecostal religion used to sit in this fashion for what they called "tarrying." Waiting for a message from God, if you want to call it that. The idea was sitting quietly so the "third party" would join you, which might be the spirit of the Holy Ghost or some "voltage."

When I heard the concept of voltage in the Huna doctrine it reminded me of what happened in these meetings in which there would actually be a voltage pass through the room and everyone could feel it and know exactly where it was. They would all agree on its location, it was almost visible. We were sitting there one day and I noticed that Frank's wife was "out of tune." I looked at her and I saw a headache in her head. Just because of the frame of mind we were in. We were in a neutral frame of mind, or I was at least. I don't know where everybody else was. I said to her, "You have a headache." She said, "Yes, I have a splitting headache!" I sat there a minute and the thought occurred to me, "Take it out. Take it out of her head!" I got up and walked across the floor, cupped my hand over her head and pulled the headache out of her head. There was nothing scientific or logical about that. I did that as a result of not desiring, not fearing, but doing.

You need a triangulation to bring about Between-ness, you have to step out of the paradigm itself. In other words... I once studied under a Zen master and he said to me "We have to use words." You labor and attempt to bring something very subjective out in the best possible of physical terms. This is all you can do. Then somebody in the audience has an intuition and picks up what you are talking about. This is the only hope you have.

TRIANGULATION

Figure 1 - Triangulation

Question: (Indistinct) Can you create a whole different life?

Rose: That would be a whole different paradigm. This is one thing I couldn't understand about Pearce, although I agree one hundred percent that it was the paradigm that killed his wife. Don't try to put something down there at the other end of the line. Put nothing down there. Don't try to replace it. Contemplate possible nothingness.

Question: (Indistinct)

Rose: There will always be paradoxes in a paradigm as soon as you start talking about them, this is the thing. We mentioned the Aborigines. They didn't allow anyone to witness when they transferred this knowledge to someone else. I think the purpose of this was that it shouldn't be written down. As soon as you write something down someone makes poems out of it, and then someone finds a philosophy in the poems and writes ten books on philosophy. Like Patanjali, he wrote ten pages and there's been hundreds of volumes written about him. He only wrote ten pages but that may have been too much because it keeps being interpreted and reinterpreted and a language developed around it.

What I hope to bring to you tonight, by words because we don't have conditions to demonstrate, is that there is a way of getting things done without recognizing every paradigm in the universe.

Question: Is your system the same as the concepts thesis, antithesis, and synthesis found in philosophy?

Rose: I am acquainted with those terms, and there is a degree of synthesis in many cases. All those concepts aren't necessary here. I said thought and no-thought brings about an Absolute realization. That is not a synthesis. You cannot add up thought and no-thought and come about with realization. You could add two colors and would get a synthesis of color, seeing the new color was a synthesis of the old colors. It is not the idea of adding the two things at the base of the triangle and getting all sorts of variables. That's not it. There is a certain thing that reacts, or results from the contemplation of both things at once. Not just examining them for qualities, but "holding them in your head," both variables at once. The gut realization comes from contemplating truth and nothingness, like the Zen koan, until your head stops, -- and then everything becomes apparent to you. And then you realize that the only reason everything became apparent to you is because you knew everything and nothing] Everything and nothing are on both sides of the line. If you know everything and nothing you become in union with the Absolute.

Question: (Indistinct reference to Alan Watts.)

Rose: That's very clever! (laughing) I'm not saying it's not the truth, or it is the truth, I don't know. It's one of those tricky little things like whether or not if you continually halve the distance between yourself and a wall, -- will you ever reach the wall? Will you ever really reach the wall, or will you always be "halfway" away from it?

Question: (Indistinct)

Rose: It is a point of neutrality. Benoit states this. It's not like an algebraic equation I have here. Thought, no-thought results in Absolute realization. Now if it was an algebraic equation then my answer would be somewhere between thought and no-thought or "half-thought." No. What it is, must be found by trying it, -- you do it, you live it... and this is what happens! You reach an Absolute realization by looking between thoughts.

Question: (Indistinct)

Rose: You can hardly force it, what happens is that you are forced into it. No one really succeeds in following the blueprint for a spiritual awakening or an accumulation of power. What happens is that he just keeps driving. What we have is the pursuit of the truth, capital "T" Truth. The other thing is that we may be incapable of perceiving the Truth. So you have action opposed by conviction that you will be unsuccessful. You live this. A person on the spiritual path lives this every moment every day of their life, they push, and push, and push... and then nothing logical, mental or verbal can explain what happens, -- an explosion. Your being changes. Your being changes because we are adaptable. The thing is, that in the next dimension you discover our space and time don't work. Our time is dependent upon a visible... sun. Our space is dependent upon an aspect of our consciousness, something far, something near. When the sun vanishes, you're timeless. That's the rationale behind the isolation tank experiments by Lilly. He put the person in a position in which he could no longer see a clock or the darkness and light of day and night, and the fact that he was floating in this tank gave him a feeling of space. This causes the computer to shift to that. Now, the computer cannot deal with "non-values," it has to have some system to go by.

Nevertheless, the problem is there and has to be solved and it can't be solved without a change of being. He can't change his being though, but his being is changed for him by a triggering by a little procedure, which is a neutral state, -- the humble, egoless state of continued energy-application with a desire to know.

The same thing applies to some people studying algebra for the first time. I know this happened to me. You get these problems X + Y = C, or 2X + 3Rc = Z. I said to myself, "What are they doing this for?! Do I have to go through this to study algebra?" But one day something "popped." I never learned algebra, I became algebra! That's the only way I can describe it. All of a sudden it all became reasonable. I couldn't see how I could apply it in my life but I could see it was fairly simple. (Incidently, algebra is a paradigm in itself.) It all became meaningful. Before it was absurdity.

We work with this. This form of inspiration is how we make battleships and airplanes. And they work. They work, so there must be something behind these inspirations (algebraic) that come to us, because there is no logical reason why X + Y should equal Z, they aren't numerical values.... When you look for an abstract answer in the search for Truth (and you don't even know it will be an abstract answer), -- you don't know what's coming up.... When you look for the answer to the meaning of life and death and self-definition, you may well come up with an abstract answer such as oblivion, if you're a student of the truth. You have to accept what comes, not what you can create. This is what you have to keep in the back of your computer too, -- no phony answers.

That which is is all you want. You never learn the answer, you can only become that answer. Then you can go back and say, "I read that in the Bible!," or whatever. Then you can say that someone who wrote that book knew something about true being. Christ, in the Bible, does not say "I know the Truth." He says "I am the Truth." That is when I realized that he knew he became, he didn't learn the Truth. He became the Truth and he found it through an amazingly twisted persistent, painful process.

Question: (Indistinct reference to illusion.)

Rose: You can't help but come up with this thing of what came first, the chicken or the egg. Who started this thing and what is the purpose of it? The purpose of it may be good, I don't know. I don't believe in condoning the blatant inconsistencies of the illusion. I believe the Truth begins with truth in living, not with a tricky mathematical formulation or with very hypothetical thinking. You have to become the Truth and becoming the Truth means you can't afford to be a damn fool! We can't afford to be snowed. We can't afford to be snowed on any level, whether the government is doing it or the guy who is selling you automobiles is doing it and I'm sure he's doing it.

Everywhere you turn it is open season on the consumer, -- or on the kid in school. He is led to believe he can make a living with this paradigm. The paradigm is getting so rotten it is helping to make more sick people.

We're getting more nut-houses as the result of the science of psychology. They're not curing people. They're not saying that there is a sane and good spirit inside this guy that is okay, and all we have to do is get inside his head. In other words, -- step inside his moccasins instead of treating him as a corpse. We treat him as a corpse, then, you know, in that he's expendable.

Question: (Indistinct)

Rose: I don't believe we're put here to be in a daydream, or a pipe-dream, or the Supreme Being's pipe-dream. I believe all science is aimed at the Truth. If you study chemistry, it is based on the hardest data they can get, the atomic chart. If you study physics it's based on materials that are weighed, categorized and catalogued. It's consistent, as consistent as they can get. If you deal with psychology or sociology, you are dealing with nebulous systems that have no foundations whatsoever.

At Brown University, I was up there giving a lecture, and one of our fellows flipped out. It wasn't from drugs, I don't know what caused it. I think sometimes he was thinking too much, but he went bananas and he fell over on the floor. He had committed himself to this mental institution.

I went to see him before I left Providence and he flopped down on the floor and the psychiatrist was summoned. Before he got there I reached down and got him by the wrist, -- I held onto his wrist and he changed immediately. He stood up and was perfectly sane. The psychiatrist saw what I did and I said to him, "Can you do that?" He looked at me like he thought I was crazy. The patient was laughing, he was very happy and normal.

I started talking to the psychiatrist and said, "What are you treating this fellow for?" He said, "Well, we don't know." I said, "Well, what are you giving him?" He said "stellizine" or "storizine", or something like that. I said, "What the hell are you giving him medicine for when you haven't diagnosed his illness?!" In other words, he's a pin-cushion. If this doesn't work, try something else, and if that doesn't work, try something else, -- instead of getting inside the person's head and finding out what's wrong.

Of course I can't enforce this on society but I say we can question and question and question and ask "Where are you coming from?" What is a thought? Why don't the psychology textbooks define what a thought is? Why don't they define what mind is. They don't. That is their stock and trade, -- thought. They don't have any definition.

Question: (Indistinct)

Rose: It makes me more tolerant because I see that's part of the picture. In other words, identification is all you wind up with, you'll be able to identify phoniness, when you see it. It'll help you in your relations with other people. If your wife starts throwing a certain type of fit, you know it's just a certain time of the month, it's not time to haul her away and start shooting the dope into her. That's the unfortunate solution to everything today, chemotherapy.

Question: (Indistinct)

Rose: I'm aware that there is an abominable tragedy going on about me every day, which is nothing more than a drama. People unfortunately have to believe it. Then you have people in Hollywood creating another one inside of it. Like the kids in the other room playing house. It's not bad enough that he has to grow up and be a householder and suffer like a householder. No, he can't wait, he's going in the other room and act at playing house, or he might have tin soldiers on the floor and he's playing army. Make-believe. We seem to be prone to make-believe, and we love it.

I was talking to a man back there from the west coast and we were talking about all the make-believe religions on the west coast. I'm appalled at the stature of the people that go to hear C.P. talk, for instance.

Question: (Indistinct)

Rose: Energy is a substance and it happens, -- boom! He is zapped and the change occurs. The fellow who is paralyzed gets up and walks or the crazy fellow has mental clarity, and it happens instantaneously. It is a transfer of what I call "quantum energy." Now, I have an explanation of where that comes from. It doesn't come from "upstairs," it comes from the way you live. The healer has to live a certain continent type of life. You cannot accumulate energy while spending it.

Question: (Indistinct)

Rose: You're thinking about thinking, and by thinking about thinking, you want more understanding. You're criticizing us for having understanding. We're going to think about thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking about thinking, and that's understanding... infinite understanding! No, No. It's very simple. Knowing. Being. Boom! And then thought is superfluous.

Question: (Indistinct)

Rose: Convictional states. Maybe some of you have read Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff categorized four types of men: the instinctual, the emotional, the intellectual, and the philosophic. I maintain that this is a very good categorization. The man on the lowest state, the instinctual or "lizard-brain man" only lives for reproduction and pleasures and when he gets "religion," he gets the "salvation" experience. It is a paradigm they build up and they feel very comfortable in it. It's like the presidential debaters. When they're inside their own paradigm, they can give you a lot of fancy answers. It's the same way with these different levels.

I studied when I was a young boy to be a priest. I would try to talk reason to these monks who were teaching me and they would say, "Oh... we're above all that. We're above all that logic because you don't find anything out until you believe."

So you see, they said that after you believe for awhile all this great Reality descends on you and you don't have to reason. Unfortunately I couldn't accept that. These preachers have lost something through their belief, or, that is, they never really found it in the first place, and they certainly lost the ability to communicate. Man with his intellectual immanence has to talk dog-language if he's speaking to dogs. And men that are ignorant, and the only language they have is in objective terms, have to somehow be communicated with in objective terms.

You can't just say "Stick your head in the sand and chant this mantra until you believe it." Or, "Say these prayers until you no longer resist." No. I believe that there is a method of digging and that is in observing everything, keeping your mind open to everything. You take what Benoit calls the "pure conciliatory position" in which you use two eyes and see both things at once. You widen your perspective. Right below conciliatory principle I have another word which is Between-ness. It is not the fanatical leaning towards any one view but the constant comparing it with its opposite. Is the opposite true? How much of a degree are you sure of yourself? To how much of a degree is it possible that the opposite is true?

We go on and we recognize that religion and psychology represent two faculties of the human mind, strangely enough. They are almost good metaphorical words for intuition and reason. The religionist is drawn to, and functions, or joins because of an intuition. He can't give you logical reasons why he believes that "Mr. X" or "so and so" is the savior. He just relies on it. This is another weakness, of course. We like to rely on democratic thinking. We like to have statistics and rely on statistics. If fifty-one percent of the people believe that green is composed of black and red, then green is composed of black and red. We change the truth to fit the system of democratic choice.

This isn't valid, of course. Things are as they are and have been since the beginning of time. We try to distort them a bit by trying to force them into our particular political or conceptual paradigm. I'll explain the word paradigm if you are not acquainted with it. It is a very appropriate word because it implies that we do not have truth at all. We have indulgence in paradigms. Every science has a paradigm. In other words, if you get out of a penitentiary, they will have a language there which cannot be understood anyplace else. In the army there is a certain language. In a research laboratory there is a certain language, abbreviated terms and the like. In a hospital they have a special language. For instance, they call a "hemostat" a "stat." A person unacquainted with this language will be lost. Chilton Pearce brings out, incidently, that he believes the paradigm is responsible for our belief in illness. Whatever fits into the language of the people will contribute to its own existence. Half the things that appear are the result of the belief that they will appear. Whether this is true or not doesn't matter, but what can be seen is that we do believe in paradigms. The army sergeant says, "You'd better believe it" in the army paradigm. He says it a hundred times. Why does he say it? He says it because it's easier to live in the paradigm than to keep saying "Why?"

Reason is identified with the psychological direction in man, in that man tries to objectify his thinking processes. He feels the tangible world is very important and he tries to make his thinking tangible. The intuitional thing seems miles away. The intuitional person can't talk to the person who is very logical, or demands proof of everything. We take this bottom line again and see an intuition and reason which seem to never meet. But when they do, from a superior conciliatory point off the straight line, you have wisdom. Philosophers are people who observe both sides of the story. They will agree to, or will study anything that relates, and not just what agrees with them. This is the only way you can arrive at a more correct understanding.

Down below the word wisdom I have written something else, -- "being" and "Between-ness." The inner Self I capitalize, and the outer self is the fellow you smile at in the mirror. Your higher Self is synonomous with your Source. You don't learn this through reason and you don't learn it always through crude intuition or superstition. It has to be perfected intuition and perfected reason. By this I mean the intuition has to be tempered with the reason. This causes through wisdom, -- a change of being. It may be gradual, so gradual he does not notice it. What has changed him is this word "Between-ness" because I have no other word for it even though it sounds like a very plain word. It is the conciliatory principle and the things that result from being between, never allowing yourself to flop fanatically to one polar opposite or the other.

We have the same thing in our scientific thinking regarding space and time. We have a line and on one end of it is space and on the other is time. No one sees any relationship. They are the two ways in which we like to describe what we call our life. We live so long, we occupy so much space. Observed from the conciliatory principle we have an item called "space-time." You might wonder why I am mentioning this. It is because this has to do with psychology and mystical experiences. In mystical experiences space and time are out of sync. Most of your great mystical experiences are space-time experiences. Most people who had them at first thought they were nuts until they realized that they occurred in a dimension not ruled by paradigm-concepts.

The reason that we are ruled by paradigm-thinking is because at first this is the only way we can see. I would like to explain "triangulation" and mention it in regard to surveying. If you want to find the very center of a hill, you can do this by standing away from that hill about a mile and sighting from a straight plane to the top of the hill. You can get a line from the top of the hill to the very center of the hill by this type by computing with trigonometry. Without an instrument (meaning a drill) you can measure the depth of the hill by measuring distances and using the three angles of the triangle. You will be able to find the center of that hill which the only other way would be to bore a hole into it. The same thing applies to Benoit's system of triangulation. It's very similar.

We can't see the center of the hill. We would have to do it very arduously and climb to the top of the hill, then bore a hole through the top and then bore a hole through the side to get that same triangle. The same thing applies in psychology. By the use of triangulation you will discover things.

Now we have a thing called "thought" and at the other end of the line we have a thing called "no-thought." In the Zen experience you start with a person who is a thinking creature, and he may come to a point where there is no thought. If a person comes to this place through the use of dope, and he strongly believes in the place he has left, then he will have consternation. It happens occasionally that the mind just ceases to think. Let us say, if the person's energy is "right," then from the point of triangulation he reaches what I call "Absolute realization," -- a combination of thought and no-thought, a combination of everything and nothing. This can only come about through thinking, thinking about things being everything or the polarity of nothing. When the computer goes to work on this problem, the result is Absolute realization.

We have a system of magic that results from this triangulation. On one side of this line we have the thought of a paradigm, a system. The paradigm may be a paradigm of faith, or the belief in entities, like in Shakespeare's Tempest, -- that there might be entities that can "swing the deal" for you. The thought, whatever it is, will involve some paradigm, it might be some kabbalistic ritual. That's a paradigm. "Paradigm X" I have. (Referring to a drawing on an easel) On the other side of the base of the triangle I have "no-thought of that paradigm." At the peak of the triangle we have the words, -- new paradigm generation or magic.

I came across this not by talking to Ambrose Worral, but by reading strange accounts of things that people did. The TAT Society puts out a journal and occasionally we get a good article in it. A good article in our upcoming issue (#10) is on the Australian Aborigines, and has to do with what we would call miracles. These Aborigines live in places in Australia where many "civilized" men die just trying to explore them. The Aborigines survive there, and they survive there by knowing. For instance, what I mean by knowing, is that they can throw a boomerang and hit a rabbit on the other side of a hill that they cannot take a sight on with their eyes. They lapse into what they call "dreamtime" in order to do this. They become in contact with what they call the "Two Brothers." We in the western world would just think that he is "picking this skill up" somehow, but it can't be disputed regardless that he gets the rabbit everytime with his boomerang. These abilities aren't accidents because their survival depends upon them. These people are even suspected of having rejected culture because they had everything "sewed up." They had control of this plane from another dimension. They were getting help, everything that was needed by them in the lines of food was provided just by going inside their own heads, getting into "dreamtime" and then throwing their spear or trotting over a hill to pick up a kangaroo's body. (Rose reads from Journal story of Aborigine tracking perfectly the trail of a man who had crossed the plains a year previously.)

Do you get the point of what he did? He was back one year. He retreated one year, and followed the other man across the desert along side of him. That is what is meant by "contemporaneous." He put his mind in a situation in which he would be contemporaneous with the original act. If a murderer disappears over there, they can find them. They're almost one hundred percent accurate.

What did he do on the relative dimension? First of all he changes the paradigm. He doesn't live according to our paradigm because we don't believe these things can happen. The second thing is that he visualizes his system. He visualizes what he's supposed to do or accomplish, perhaps by reminding himself of the person's piece of clothing he has. He actually retreats in space-time. That's the reason of space and time on this line in triangle. Space and time no longer exist in his paradigm. He is free to travel in any segment of that now solidified space-time experience, -- or to describe it.

Consequently these people whom we look upon as being "aboriginal" actually have the secret. We don't find it in our scientific books because scientists have to laboriously prove every step of the way before they can come up with a conclusion. There are other people who do them, just do them, and then leave it up to us to figure out how they did them.

END
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== Data Template ==


{{Recording Data
|record-date = 1979
|location = Ohio State, Columbus, Ohio
|number-tapes = 2 x 60 min
|source = J
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s = Four files: 32 min; 29 min; 32 min; 32 min
|total-time =
|transcription-status = Done by Mike Fitzpatrick
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf =
|published-book = Direct-Mind Experience (Chapter 2) - Copyrighted
|published-website =
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|url-direct-mind =
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== Notes ==

NOTE: THIS TRANSCRIPTION IS THE VERSION PUBLISHED IN DIRECT-MIND EXPERIENCE.

In the book the heading states: "From the Original Notes"

The version in the recording is very different from the book.

THIS IS ALSO A COMMERCIAL RECORDING - DO NOT DISTRIBUTE

== Title, etc ==

LECTURE ON MOODS

Columbus 1979

From the Original Notes

== From book ==

[as is, with a few typo fixes]

I am going to talk about moods. But first I would like to talk a little about a book I wrote, that has to do with a new or different approach to psychology. In it I pointed out mental conditions which I called states of mind. One of the things which contributes strongly to a state of mind is the mood. A state of mind carries conviction and may result from a long period of accumulation of various convictions and those convictions may have been inspired by totally non-logical moods. And of course when we hear the term "non-logical" we are inclined to react negatively, presuming that anything non-logical should be negated.

I am continually recommending a new approach to psychology, and when I do this, I have to identify the objectionable psychology as "modern psychology" which is predominately behaviorism. Psychology should be a study of the mind, not the body. Psychologists since the turn of the century, found it easier to study the body than the mind, so they decreed that the mind was protoplasmic or somatic. In so doing they became anatomists.

On the other hand, I must admit that the recommended "new psychology" is not new. We find its roots in older systems, but we have also evolved new understandings from the method of introspection combined with the study of long term observations of mental states and their origins rather than their effects upon society. And from this study we are amazed to find parallels in the older systems which perhaps laid no claim to being scientific or psychological.

Zen, for instance is one of the older systems. It employed the direct mind technique for communicating (transmission) with others and for viewing the inner self directly. I do not maintain that all current systems purporting to be Zen, follow the four identification tenets of ancient Zen. Modern or American Zen, at last has become dogmatic, ritualistic and in some places, -- money-conscious.

I would like to mention homeopathy and Gestalt Psychology here. Homeopathy is identified as a system of healing which treats the person by observing all the symptoms together, a "totality of symptoms" according to Hahnemann. This "umbrella-view" would certainly apply to psychology. I will not go into details, but I found that Hahnemann came up with some psychological wisdom, by finding a common denominator in a majority of healers... not necessarily homeopathic healers. They were celibate or sexually conserving.

Gestalt Psychology favors placing or fixing the diagnostic attention on patterns of thinking, or gestalten, rather than on individual reflexes. This is the umbrella-view... being applied to psychology.

Now, in The Albigen Papers, I indicated the importance of knowing the influence of a state of mind. A state of mind is a gestalt. And if you want to understand states of mind, you must observe moods. Moods are important. They can lift us to the highest human mental experiences or reduce us to murder and suicide.

In my years of meditation, I discovered that possibly, the greatest enemy that man has, is his own mind. I came to this conclusion long before I studied Zen. And when I studied Zen, I found corroboration for my previous intuitive discovery. This discovery is common knowledge to anyone who has studied Zen. They talk about killing the mind. And that is a frightening statement.

But in direct mind introspection, the mind stares at itself, and eliminates the mind-functions that would prematurely destroy the body, or would distort the ability to recognize the true states of mind. Only the true states of mind will lead us to the True Scientific Realization.

Now I said that moods can lift us to pleasant heights or drag us down to mental states that lead to murder or suicide. Yet at the same time I maintain that even the darker moods which lead to despair and death will turn into good for us if we view them from a detached or superior position, or we might say from the umbrella-viewpoint. Pleasant moods indicate correct direction, that is, direction toward ultimate realization or peace of mind. Unpleasant moods are signals to review our aims. Even unpleasant moods may be the result of tremendously pleasant experiences, wherein the depression results from an intuitive recognition that the sensuosity is a sliding board that sweeps us irrevocably into a mental trap in which the sensuosity is blunted or jaded, and in which the vision of simple serenity is never attainable.

In order to evaluate moods from a superior position, we have to study them after they have passed. Moods do not let us go, just because they made us unhappy or suicidal. Yet after the mood has passed, and has been studied, the analysis has to involve some picture of its origin, and some determination of the means to avoid its reccurrence in the future. Booze will not lift us from a depressed mood. Nor should booze or dope be used to celebrate the arrival of a mood of peace, serenity or selfless joy.

Moods do not cause suicide. They cause or re-trigger states of mind. The state of mind then facilitates an easy return of the mood. Suicide results from a state of mind, fed by recurrent moods.

States of mind are not caused by moods alone. Murders can occur as a result of a state of mind which has no origin in a single mood. Such as murders for a calculated profit, or in the case of mercy-killings.

In the search for sources of states of mind, I think that there are factors that transcend mere environment and heredity ... unless we wish to -- redefine environment as regions far beyond the planet earth or other-dimensions -- and to redefine heredity to include prenatal planes and dimensions. There is a temptation to take such ideas as astrology, reincarnation and predestination a little more seriously, -- in the search for such sources.

I often think of my own family. I was one of four boys, who had the same environment, but had entirely different states of mind. Different philosophic goals, moral values, -- opposite ethical postures and totally different relationships with society ... or reactions to society. I could not explain these differences better than by saying that one of us had a curse on him, the other had a lucky star or blessing, and another had inherited a lot of his father's traits and weaknesses. And the fourth was cast in a fatalistic mold. As a child he wore a perpetual look of apprehension... and his features seemed old. In his teens he became a fatalist. It was part of him, or it was him. I do not ever remember seeing him laugh or cry. He had absolutely no sense of fear. He lived as though he waited for death. He died when he was twenty-five.

Psychology has not yet given us a system by which we can understand our neighbor... or our relatives. Behavior is not yet predictable. We constantly read of incidents where psychiatrists, or whole groups of psychiatrists and psychologists, such as in mental institutions, have pronounced a patient cured and safe for society, -- only to learn that their patient went out, and in a matter of weeks, killed someone for little or no reason. Behavior is more predictable among members of a family, because they are in constant contact with each other, and because of this, they are prepared for or accustomed to, -- changes of states of mind. Also, members of a family generally share the same state of mind about the nature of people outside of their immediate family. Closely knit communities have a state of mind in common, which outsiders might identify as regional prejudice. Residents in institutions reach a common state of mind which often manifests itself in a unique moral code, and a language unintelligible to outsiders.

You cannot analyze people by asking them questions. You are likely to get tangential answers, excuses and lies. And you will get answers that the person was unaware of giving, or unaware of his reasons for giving. Or he may give you an answer that he thinks you might like to hear.

If you really want to know a person, you have to step inside his head. You cannot do it mechanically. Every man has his own separate mold. The factors that make up his personality are so numerous that only an intuitive mind can come up with a composite reading or diagnosis. There is growing agreement among psychologists that I.Q. tests fail to calibrate intelligence. Too many people who could not adjust to our educational standards in their youth, later became geniuses, business tycoons or great spiritual leaders.

When we talk about stepping inside someone's head, we are talking about rapport. When this happens you join with his mood. Moods are like colored glass through which we view the world, and because of which we build states of mind. You have to peep into the other fellow's head and look out through his glasses. And when you do this, you are liable to join his team.

I would like to go directly now to the study of moods. I found that the study of dreams led me to a better understanding of moods. And naturally the only dreams that you can study, are your own. The subject-matter of a dream is not as important as the "feel" of a dream. You may feel as though a message is being conveyed to you through feeling which has nothing to do with the grotesque or fantasy-like events in the dream.

Now I should qualify that statement about being unable to study only your own dreams. You can study dream-records of others, for statistics and comparisons. Some dreams bring us memories from the past. Some may be prophetic. Some may involve conversations with living or deceased people. There may be some value in keeping a record of the events or messages of these dreams, especially those which appear to be prophetic.

The type of study which I am talking about, when it comes to your own dreams -- especially the feeling content of them -- cannot ever become recorded statistics. So in one sense, this study cannot be called a scientific study. It is difficult to record feelings. Feelings must be felt.

It will, however become a new language for you. And while the study of this aspect of dreams is extremely subjective, we will still pick up patterns of dreams, and categories of moods which are like costumes in which the dreams are clothed.

In regard to categories of dreams, I have found that there are three major moods in dreamland. Dreamland is a separate place, a stage or a state. One of the moods is Fear. Another is Seduction or acquisition. And the third is Nostalgia. And I wonder how many of you have encountered that word Nostalgia Before, in any analysis of human thinking.

The above three moods represent three great motivations that for some reason have been ingrained or programmed into all people. I think that the understanding of the effects of moods, and combinations of moods will bring us closer to an understanding of the non-somatic mind, and how it affects ... seriously... the life of the body.

Psychology has existed (in its formal form) for a century, and it survived and flourished without a definition for sanity. Its achievements in biochemistry have preserved a form for it... a sort of body without a soul.

I think it might be a good idea to look for our understanding of the mind in the mind itself. We cannot choke it out of the body.

Let us take a condition called delirium. I do not think that any of us will say that delirium is a sane or desirable condition. Delirium is a deep mood... a fear-mood. It is a mood that comes upon the mind when the body is very sick or asleep. The nightmare is a projected fear-mood. Guilt is a mood. Guilt is a combination of Fear and Nostalgia.

Let's take a look at the seduction-mood as it manifests itself in dreams. Or the acquisition form of Seduction as it manifests itself. Something in the unconscious mind reaches out and seizes things which may never have been physically attained. I would like to hear some of your dreams... if you have any of this type. I can remember acquisitive dreams that stuck in my memory. Some were people... girls... most of whom I never met. Some were of property, and some were of objects... cars, friendly pets, personal possessions, and valuables.

Sometimes the moods became mixed in a single dream. For instance, not too long ago I dreamed that I was in Baltimore. I found a field that had once been part of the city. Nothing was left but bricks and rubble and an abandoned railroad track, and here and there, -- a part of a building. The acquisitive instinct was strong. I saw an opportunity to start a building project. I had an idea -- standing there along the tracks -- that I could buy the land, and use one of the building fragments as a place to live, while I built new houses, one at a time.

But then suddenly a wave of sadness came over me. I suddenly felt very tired, and I realized that I was not the young man who arrived in Baltimore more than forty-five years ago. Then the desire to leave the place, started me toward home. I found that the rubble extended farther and farther. I sensed that I was in a corner of Southwest Baltimore, and kept looking for the Montgomery Ward building and for a bus station. It seemed that I would never get out.

This was a combination of an acquisitive and a nostalgic mood-combination. The acquisitive part was the land, and the opportunity for wealth in the future. But then, even in my dream-state, I realized that there was no future like that possible. Then the Nostalgia came in. The Baltimore location in the dream came from Nostalgia, it was the town where the dreams of my youth started to unfold. But when I realized that I was an old man, my Nostalgia shifted to West Virginia, and I became desperate in trying to get home.

Now behind all this traumatic dream was a message. What do you think it was? I have a feeling about it. My feeling of the dream may be right or wrong, in regard to its message, but the message is "act your age." Or "All that is built is now rubble." Or, "The days of your physical service are over."

I maintain that the nostalgic mood becomes the language of the soul It is the inner man trying to get through the earth-man's paradigm, to communicate with him.

Many people take dreams lightly. They demand sensory confirmation for all phenomena. But I have a view from another angle. We might call it an esoteric angle, and it might contribute to an esoteric psychology.

Now modern psychology is based upon what you see... and God help us if we only saw what the senses delivered to us. We would be very confused in our actions. For instance, we know that the retina picks up an inverted image. There is an adjustment that goes on that turns the world right-side-up, that rectifies hallucinations that we see, and enables us to survive mirages.

Also, under hypnosis the subject apparently sees things, which in reality are only suggestions of the hypnotist. Now we have done a lot of experiments in this department... where you give a person a drink of water, telling him that it is alcohol, and then watch him take on all the symptoms of drunkenness.

Or, you can tell a hypnotized man that a sack of potatoes nearby is really a man... and he will treat it as though it is a man and try to talk to it. At one of our Chautauquas, a young hypnotized girl was given a broom, and told that it was a guitar. I asked her to play something on it. She was now in a post-hypnotic state at the time, incidentally. She replied that she never learned to play a stringed instrument. I assured her that the guitar would be very easy to play, and that her attempts to play would bring with it the magic of perfect knowledge of the procedure. And so she proceeded to strum the broom and sing.

She indulged in a vision of the mind. These hypnotic antics are nearly all the result of a vision of the mind. We perceive with the mind not the senses... and I think that a little thinking will make this clear to you.

What happens is this: First we apprehend something either by sight or other senses. We see stuff for instance. But the mind readjusts the incoming neural message or impingement of light on the optical apparatus. It adjusts such things as an inverted retinal image, and any contrariness in the way we pick up a scene with our limited color range of perception.

Next the mind projects a mental image back out to our environment, which makes up that which all consider to be a true scene, -- a true environment. It is only when we have watched a hologram, or survived a mirage, that we are able to understand the inaccuracy of the perception process, and understand that the mind is capable of projecting a false image before our physical eyes.

If you are looking for books on the subject of true inner vision as opposed to erratic sensory vision there are two which you should read: J. J. Van der Leeuw's Conquest of Illusion, and the story of the man in the cave in Plato's Republic. Plato saw two worlds with man being caught in the unreal one.

Our sensory organs are not all that is erratic. Even though the somatic mind (brain-mind) adjusts things despite improper or incomplete sensory ability, -- that somatic mind in turn can be fooled. This is demonstrated by the hypnosis described.

The key to understanding this is the understanding of moods. The hypnotist creates a mood, and amplifies it until the subject acts. The hypnotist is a wielder of moods, fear, nostalgia and acquisitiveness. He can cause a panic by treacherous conditioning.

While we are on the subject let us identify the hypnotic conditioners. They are rarely the stage hypnotists. The stage hypnotist generally points out that he is inducing a false state of mind for entertainment purposes. His conditioning is momentary.

There are people and organizations, whose main purpose is to condition people on a massive scale, simply to expand their field of power. These are the clergy, the politicians, vested interests such as unions, and the field of behavior-psychologists, chemo-therapists (psychiatrists), and a sea of bumbling counselors, some with degrees in psychology, and many with no accreditation beyond a role previously played in some encounter-group, ministerial function, or as a comforter for hospital patients.

Everyone is trying to become a conditioner of the public. Just turn on the television if you do not believe this. Watch for the process of first creating a mood... or all the three at once, Nostalgia, Fear and Acquisitiveness. Grandpa drinks lemonade, or the honest-looking farmer leans on the fence and sells you tobacco. This is Nostalgic-appeal. Then Fear is applied, -- beware of the competitor, he is out to rob you. Acquisitiveness is now the clincher. The ten thousand dollar car comes with a beautiful semi-naked girl on every fender. Come down to the bank and get rich on your savings... an underpaid clerk on a TV commercial, -- will tell you with the studied sincerity of a high-paid actress. And so on.

To recapitulate a bit here on this process of illusion which I have just described, I mentioned three stages of perception. First we have a sensory impingement (or percept), which is picked up by one of the sensory organs. Second, there is an adjustment which occurs in the somatic mind. I use the word somatic mind to identify with the "reflexive" mind of the behaviorists at its best. But there is a faculty or Mind beyond and more accurate than the somatic mind. Hence the emphasis on definition. Thirdly, the somatic mind projects upon the physical scenery before us, a vision of its readjusted world.

But... we would never know this third trick (projection) if we did not possess an anterior faculty, -- anterior and superior to the somatic mind. This faculty or Mind, I call the Process-Observer. Brunton called it the Overself.

All moods and states of mind are not induced by other people. There is an archetypal source for some moods. We were talking about this in the kitchen the other day. There are basic moods for all mankind. And it is possible that even animals manifest moods under or in response to experiences in a consistent uniform manner. Nearly all small animals frolic like children, and they manifest a pleasant mood when doing so. Cattle mourn the death of a member of the herd. Horses tease each other and tease humans.

We have many moods in common with animals. It seems that animals are programmed to instinctively fear predators for their species. The question came up about the human fear of snakes, as well as unreasonable pleasant reaction by people to certain dreams. Dreams are visions, and sometimes we have to search for the vision which casts us into a dream.

Can we apply a Freudian interpretation (sex) when we dream of a snake? Or do we have a nightmare about snakes because of a religious association of the snake with Satan?

What is the proportional occurrence of light, bright light in our dreams? How many of you have dreamed of a bright sun? Or of just a blinding light that is occasionally described as being seen by people who have been pronounced dead, and later revived? I find very few people who have dreamed of a bright light, but many dream of darkness, abysses. It would be interesting to compare the statistical representation or occurrence of black dreams and bright light dreams.

Darkly colored dreams are foreboding and depressing. All life responds to light. A beautiful day puts us into a happy mood. So it seems that the mood that results from the beautiful day is common to all life forms capable of showing expression. We dread the darkness of oblivion and the smothering blackness of the grave.

When we realize with Plato that this pageant of life is an illusion, we can somehow understand that the higher mind of man -- call it a soul or whatever you wish -- is trying to convey to us that our daylight hours are really drab and miserable and not conducive to genuine light or genuine happiness.

Dreamland is a place, where faulty computations are aired, and often where profound revelations come from something deep inside of us... which can only come out when the feverish activity of the day is paralyzed in sleep.

The dreamland experiences, even though they are nightmares, are not as dangerous to us as the moods of daytime. Nature or some mechanism or programming of the mind causes us to forget our dreams more quickly than our daytime mental experiences.

The moods that result from being thrown into jail, from being rejected by a close relative or lover, or from being overwhelmed by a series of devastating financial or social losses, can in turn result in death for the body, meaning suicide.

I know of cases of at least five young people who recently hanged themselves in jail, after being arrested a few days before for misdemeanors. They were killed by moods, -- in each the mood resulted from being faced with a new and powerful reality. For a couple it may have been the change from a drug mood for a mood that threw the drug mood into jeopardy. While in the drug mood, the moods of the outer world seemed like corruption. When deprived of the drug (marijuana or amphetamines at the worst), they were forced to deal with the state of mind of people equally bewildered but simply doggedly following the rules of another paradigm. Suicide followed when illumination presented both states of mind as being corrupt, farcical and inescapable. And for those who had not been jailed for drugs the trauma had similar form, -- suicide was the only escape from two intolerable alternatives, represented by strong states of mind.

Moods are easy to enter, but difficult to get rid of. You cannot talk yourself out of a deep depression which is the same as a state of mind.

Sometimes people try to drink themselves out of it, or knock it out with pills, but when the alcohol or drug wears off, they return to a still deeper depression. You cannot divest yourself of the mood while you are in it, nor when you are drunk or doped. To fight the mood you must catch the moment of sanity somewhere between sobering up and the return of the depression. At that point you must manage to make up your mind as to the future use of alcohol or drugs as a sedative, and at that same time you have to get a plan of action going for relief from the mood that depressed you. Sometimes a change of environment will help.

Once you are caught in a mood that persists, it is like being abandoned in the middle of the ocean and knowing that you have to swim. The realization of hopelessness magnifies the mood. It becomes a disease... a delirium.

Let us examine the Nostalgic Mood. It can be a very pleasant mood, or somewhat lethal when it is found in combination with a black mood of fear. Playing nostalgic tunes from childhood days, may bring out violence in a deeply depressed person.

I have read quotations from several authors who have said that the most painful thing to have is an intensely pleasant memory. The memory takes us back to better days to which there is no return. We have drifted away, forgotten it, and upon being reminded we hunger for the days of seeming perfection.

There are people who can consciously or unconsciously manipulate the moods of men to a degree that they drive the subjects out to the marketplace, where they give up their money.

What are the ingredients in the formula for seduction through Nostalgia? Colors impel the moods. Lavender, gold or yellow, violet and grey.and light green. Green represents hope, and the green fields of youth. Violet and grey are painted into pictures of benign old people. Pink and gold depict the eternality of youth and childhood.

Now we get the smell of lilacs, the sachet odors of infancy, the smell of a field of newly mowed hay, the smell of cool water, or the smell of wood from a campfire.

Seduction and sales can be facilitated with organ music, with violins or even banjos, with the lute and the harp, or with the hunting horn if you liked to hunt, or with the bugle if your heart has a fondness for military memories. Bagpipes have a damning seduction all of their own.

As for music we are all familiar with sentimental music. Red Sails in the Sunset. The Old Pine Tree. Mother Macree. The Battle Hymn of the Republic. Put My Little Shoes Away. In the Gloaming.

What are some of the stage-props, and the scenes used by television advertisers? The rocking chair, the handmade cradle, the upright piano, satin and velvet, the spinning wheel. The scenes are repeated thousands of times, but they never fail to kindle that unreasonable nostalgia. The barefoot boy and his dog. The wild stallion on the horizon. The young girl waving a farewell from the porch of the old farmhouse. The old sailor leaning on his cane, looking out on a shrinking ship on the sea. The gazebo. The old mill. The talking brook. Currier and Ives prints.

The Nostalgic Mood is unreal, and yet it grips us relentlessly. Whether it is a dream or a moving picture that instigates it. We see nostalgic dramas, and say to ourselves, "Why cannot we live that way?"

But life is never that way because the drama only shows one fractional side of life. The crude elements of life are left out of the drama. Our childhood as viewed thirty years later, seems to have been idyllic. But after a while miserable memories associated with that same period of childhood will resurrect themselves, and then we may realize that we long for a chance to turn back the clock more than anything else."

When this happens... when the disenchanting realities return to us, we cannot help but stamp all nostalgic experiences as being unreal. On the other hand this mood had to have an origin besides the longing for eternal childhood. We are only momentarily fooled by the nostalgia, because down through the years we are acutely aware of the erosions of time, and the irrevocable daily steps of aging.

However, let us not be in a hurry to denounce Nostalgia, because it later appears unreal, or because some merchant uses it upon us to sell his goods. Through our nostalgic mood it is possible that something in our inner mind is trying to communicate something to us... to the extent that that inner mind has a sympathetic sorrow for our confused states of mind, and a deeper memory of a time when we were free from anguish and sorrow. Our first reaction to the awareness or existence of the faculty for Nostalgia, is one of pleasantness. When we learn that it is being used against us by merchants, politicians, governmental departments and social workers, -- it becomes offensive and negative.

Yet the intuition persists... that something inside of us is trying to open our head to a whole new dimension with a whole new language. Nostalgia in the final analysis may not be an element of illusion, alone.

Let us take the books by Eleanor Porter, such as Pollyanna. Some of her characters are little girls who are seemingly sad and restrained, modest, wisely observing life like an adult but filled with inhibition in the face of any urges which anyone at all might not like.

These quaint little girls are loved by everyone because they are harmless, sweet or wholesome. They are so perfect that they could only inspire negative feelings in a pedophile.

Let us take a look at a book and drama called Jane Eyre. Here we are likewise thrown into a nostalgic mood. Why? The theme of the story is inhibited, almost fearful seduction. The girl is so modest that she smothers her passion for years rather than admit any hormonal activity. The male is a noble, stallion type who wears a shield of petulance and propriety to preserve the impeccable British posture. Or hypocrisy.

Why are we addicted to movies that find a glory for their characters, because the characters are noble, self-sacrificing even in love, and loyal to their mates, even if both mates have to die as virgins. Now we can analyze this reaction on our part by claiming that we become infatuated with the heroine if we are male, and with the hero if we are female. Being selfish, we identify with the characters so much that we weep in the theater when the heroine dies unrequited, we die a little when the hero falls on his sword. But in our identification we claim them in death as perfect or ideal lovers for ourselves.

Even though we go home that night to Mrs. Mudd.

But what is this thing in us, -- though we are lechers, -- that refuses to glorify that lechery, and causes us to turn to fables, -- to dream of eternality. Even if we know that we cannot escape our lechery and hypocrisy. Down deep inside ourselves we yearn for permanent peace, inviolable virginity, and love without lust or penalty.

Nostalgia is subtle and seldom identified by its victims or participants, but I am sure that it is responsible for ninety-five percent of all human behavior. The other five percent is split up between reactions to fear and seduction. We are able to send millions of young men out to die in foolish, or indecisive wars because those millions of young men are willing to perpetuate the image of selflessness, unrequited sex (in death) and nobility, to bring about a transcendent state of peace (which will never be fully realized.) And they joined the armies because of the nostalgic ads, the blaring bugles and bagpipes, the dramas that made the terror, carnage and death on the battlefield appear surmounted and obliterated in the eternal glow of selfless camaraderie.

Of course it took only a small percentage of the population (motivated by seduction and acquisitiveness), to organize torch-light parades, to hire actors and singers to pour forth an endless appeal to the millions of altruists, with nostalgic dramas and songs. I say that the manipulators are a small percentage, because of recent governmental reports that twenty-eight percent of the country's wealth is owned by two percent of the population.

The sad part of this civilization is that the majority of the people are trying to live like Pollyanna, but it does not work. To preserve mom and apple pie, we vote laws into being that protect the two percent, who in turn care little about the perpetuation of altruism. The two percent are above the law.

Nostalgia basically reflects that which people really want. To get that which they think that they want, they vote tax burdens upon themselves in the hope of having a paradise on earth. They readily approve levies to make expensive highways and public buildings, to create restricted parks (federal, state, county and city parks), and to hire more bureaucratic public servants who become our masters. In this socialistic paradise we employ thousands of PhD's to spoon feed an equal number of "exceptional" citizens. There is nothing wrong with dreaming about Utopia if the dreams are realistic, and they are not preyed upon by hucksters and the dead-weight of bureaucrats that have selfish interests.

What do people really want? Everyone wants to be free to acquire without conflict. Don't let them tell you that they do not want anything or that they are going to live for humanity.

They want peace because they are worn out from ten thousand years of struggle in the jungle. The whole archetypal memory of man is strained with centuries of slaughter. He wants permanency and peace. But he wants freedom to acquire. But conflict comes with the acquisition process.

Nostalgia for eternal peace makes man long for peace and unchanging status. But the same element of Nostalgia is used against him to march to destruction to the tune of ballads and bagpipes, or to ruin him and his family with the taxes and legislation that he imposed upon himself in a mood of idle fancy about Utopia.

The more man is seduced, the more Nostalgia becomes painful. The continuance of this pain leads him to reject the dreams of childhood, -- the dreams of eternal paradise, or perpetual Christmas. The things which Nostalgia hints as being real, or really desirable are scorned as idle fancy. These things which Nostalgia promises are states of inoffensiveness, kindness, love, peace, beauty and eternality. But these are the spiritual objectives that are written into every religion.

For more clues along this line, let us go back to dreams. I have had a strange common denominator in most of my dreams of people who are living or dead.

I found that the person in the dream often was tremendously different than the person whom I previously knew, -- in regard to personality and appearance. This happens more often with people who are deceased.

In the dream there is invariably, a direct-mind communication, but on occasion very distinct words have been spoken that bore out the change of personality or reactions of the person. I have dreamed of people whom I disliked, only to be surprised by a personality that was definitely friendly and acceptable. When I wakened I realized or remembered that I was surprised in or during the dream. When I awakened, I realized that my entire previous assessment of the person's personality was inaccurate.

The key to this was evident in a short sentence spoken by a man, now dead, who in life had given me some bad moments, to say the least. He stood erect and his face was youthful and radiant.

When he said, "You will never know how glad I am to be rid of that body," I knew that the body had been the catalyst in his negative personality. Ever since then I have had a compassion for the man, and a conviction that he taught me something, and that he knew ahead of time that my reaction would be acceptable to him. He was teaching me something.

Of course you can say that this is nothing but an emotional dream... in which nothing can ever be offered as evidence. But the message remains for me, (realized not in that dream alone), that if we can look beyond the body-personality, we can without dreams, learn the same things about people, because people have personalities that result from the drives and demands of the body. Most of us are helpless to do anything better than we are now doing it.

There is another possible revelation in this type of dream, which points beyond being an intuitional clarity, -- about human personality. It is the possibility that nostalgic dreams are a vehicle wherein we apprehend spiritual or absolute verities.

Somewhere out there, there may be a place which we once knew, or visited, where the stage-play was not as violent, hopeless or unfathomable. And this place or state cannot be witnessed by the frantic, relative mind. It would only be witnessed in a channel between the infinite and the finite... a unique mental faculty. It could occur in a passive meditation... or in a particular mood. But never by means of the faculty of logic. Anymore than this message can be conveyed to you by logical proof.

We can come up with certain conclusions. Man longs for peace and permanence, freedom from change. But these conclusions or any moods that speak for them are blown away by the daily exigencies of the nightmare of life. The ideal is wonderful, but we had better be pragmatic... it may never materialize.

The electorate nostalgically picks candidates that prattle about peace. Some of these candidates were so simpering, pious and affable that they were irresolute and helpless, or they were sly actors. And if they were just actors, they were still obliged to play out the farce of humility and harmlessness in the face of attacks by pragmatic savages.

How far do we carry this search for the humble, if not feminine man? I remember a television series about a teacher named Kotter. He was a sort of nut (I should say this was his role.) He was no threat to the underprivileged or to predatory dead-end kids.

Also on television we have social ambiguity and hypocrisy in the police shows. We have cops who are as affable as bishops, or as common as bad smelling mud (The Dukes of Hazzard.) We must avoid one-upmanship so in other serials he must be a black-Chinese-Spanish-Indian who is illiterate but lovable. The cop must love children, spend time with the Little League, and romp occasionally with the motorcycle gang... to show that he is a nice guy.

But in reality the police of this country commit more murders that the Mafia. They are famous for coining the term "drop-gun." Many police carry a second gun to leave on the body of the unarmed victim. A recent case was a victim in a southern state whose mother was a policewoman in the same area. I would estimate that every day in this country someone is killed by a policeman. I keep a clipping-file on police-shootings. It is not always an innocent person. Sometimes it is another policeman... or the mayor's protege.

And all of this goes on because we put our nostalgic heads in the sand.

A man spends a lifetime building up a business. He goes by the book. He studies mathematics, law, and psychological dexterity to manipulate his business or the stock market. Then one night after a period of exhaustion, he has a dream and blows his brains out. This is a fear-dream that produces a fear-mood, which ends in a fatal state of mind.

When it becomes evident that moods can cause suicide, that they can kill us, then what follows is the immediate need to do something about it besides the administering of anti-depressants or happy pills. We may be dealing with something that has little or nothing to do with body-chemistry.

A perfectly healthy and happy man or woman may become a victim to a mood and a resulting state of mind which in turn is fatal. In fact it may be the happy people who are plunged the most deeply into depression, because they have not become accustomed to living an unhappy life.

If we are going to study the cases of suicide, it may be good to note that many people commit suicide who are never listed as suicides. For instance Gary Gilmore committed suicide. From a prolonged jail-state of mind, he chose to die, but not by his own hand. The killing of others, seemingly for no justifiable reason, was his protest against the environment which smothered him.

We get into more detail about the mechanics of apparently illogical life and death. But then there may be little that is logical in living in something that becomes a snake-pit. To begin with, he was thrown into jail when he was young. In jail he was confronted with fear, and perhaps terror at times. How does a person overcome this under prison conditions? If you were at home, you might run out and get away from it, or take steps to protect yourself from the people who cause the fear.

In jail, the refuge from terror is anger or submission to the whims of brutal guards or perverts. When you choose anger, you have to arm yourself. A state of mind is established. The caged animal must develop a reflex to kill, -- hoping that his conviction will deter people with less important motivations.

Finally he gets out of prison. He meets a girl upon whom he projects every quality that Nostalgia can conjure up. He enters now a seductive mood, but the hopelessness of a permanent relationship with her, returns him to the nostalgic mood. This is evidenced by his appeal for her to join him in death. He longed for permanence more than for a short life of connubial struggling. For him there was only one resolution... the world was not a fit place to live in. He wanted to be with her, (or with love) forever. But not on earth.

And so he taunted the judges for a death sentence.

To get back to the mechanics of the Fear-mood, we have to look for a less than lethal solution. First we have to become an Observer of our self. This will enable us to get something besides a "selfish" or self-sympathetic view of reactions. When we really view the depression or Fear-mood from this perspective, we will realize that it is alien, and as corrosive as our human enemies.

The step to take now, is to summon a degree of anger against Fear, (which most prisoners direct against other people.) By facing the fear angrily, -- but all the while knowing that the anger is your message to the Fear-mood that threatens to become an entity more deadly than a virus, -- you can conserve your sanity, and be on the alert for other moods which in combination with Fear may be suicidal.

This does not mean that we should try to get into a state of mind that requires surrender of moral principles... or that we should hesitate to choose death over a hopeless and meaningless existence. It means that the decision to die should come about without the agony of delirious mental torment.

The same method of introspection should be applied to the Seduction-moods. And when we become the Observer instead of the actor, we will be less likely to generate a Seduction state of mind which hi tune may kill us.

To monitor the Seductive-Acquisitive moods we should study the daytime reveries, and the dreams of sleep. Being an Observer of seductive reveries does not mean that we have to indulge in them while studying them. It means that the Observer should be as detached as a third party. It means that the Observer should be as critical of our mental and physical reactions, as a man of seventy would be upon reviewing the absurd behavior of his adolescent years.

Studying the moods, even from the point of the Observer, will not always result in an accurate cataloguing of the moods observed, or even a correct identification of the mood. Since we do not know all of the factors and dimensions which affect our minds and cause moods, we will, in many cases only be able to observe the mood as a unique phenomenon which visits us, without immediately knowing its cause or source, -- or even knowing exactly which type of mood it is.

For instance, there is a Seduction mood which comes from glandular activity and which manifests itself in the form of reverie. But there is also an Acquisition mood (seduction is the acquisition of another person) which involves money and luxury ... or just particular objects, toys or property. Then there is an Acquisition mood which visits us with a particular person only, and which is accompanied by strong mental projection upon that person that just does not answer to good common sense when analyzed a few years later.

We are now talking about infatuation, with all of its unfathomable convictions, and the bizarre state of mind and reactions. Some people emerge from this mood by means of transferring their sexual focus and indulging their sexual energy, while others merge with despair. The former are able to laugh about the experience while lowering their calibre of sexual preferences. The latter choose death rather than abandon the idea of an ideal imago-type.

I think that the diagnosis of a projection of an imago-type is not the only cause for suicide in matters of moods. The imago-type is one associated with ideals of perfection. The vision pi the victim is generally one of a perfect union, (non-sexual in mtent) of two perfect people. But the extremely moral victim, generally chooses a flashy whore or whoremaster. So there is an element of confused narcissism involved here, where the object of enchantment is basically a mirror, or serves as a mirror.

But there may be still other factors which cause this disease called projection. There may be archetypal memories involved. Or the infatuation may result from some intuitional recognition of a compatible type of body-chemistry. Not all infatuations result in suicide. There are infatuated people who actually manage to marry their dream-mate. And some of these people live together for the rest of their lives. I found what I consider to be one factor in the society of the story-book marriage-group. This factor was heritage or nationality. Some sense an attraction to mates of their own nationality, and a rapport develops between them, to a point where they feel the Geist of that nationality blessing them. Others are drawn hypnotically to opposite nationalities, and the roles of worshiper and worshipee.

We might summarize here and try to list some of the functions of moods. Moods are subtle mental patterns which lead to states of mind. Moods are also a form of language for communicating about experiences, wisdom or feelings. They are the language of two people in deep rapport. They are also the language for communicating unverbalizable psychic experiences. And for these categories they may be the only means which we have to communicate the information desired, because the spoken languages have no suitable rhetorical art to transmit it.

They say that a picture is worth a thousand words. The picture will do the job only if the artist who painted the picture is skilled in conveying a mood with his brush. The artist must first be a sensitive person who copies a landscape to transmit the mood which the landscape imposed upon him. If the portrait is inspired by a person, (meaning it is not a portrait which he is paid to paint by another admirer), then his genius will struggle to convey every virtue of the subject so that everyone who sees the portrait will have the same admiration for the subjective facets of the subject which enhance the features and immortalize the portrait.

Painting, sculpturing and poetry are forms which are used to convey and immortalize moods. The artist or creator, never becomes involved in psychological analysis. He goes directly to your mind with his magic. The moods created by art and music are generally nostalgic moods.

We can see the mood-language expertly used by merchants who employ any and all moods to put us into a susceptible state of mind, but nearly all of the incidents described by me have been one-way mood projections. The artist conveys a mood to the viewer, and the merchant manipulates his customers with scientific precision.

This one-way projection of moods leaves us in the position of recipient if not victim... of this magical language. So we move to examine the factor which makes it possible for a two-way communication, or at least a better way of getting answers from intelligences so far unanswered across the thoughtless dimensions reached only by the accidental seeping of moods into our dreams or visions of mystics.

This factor or implement is rapport. It is not too mysterious. It is the same rapport that makes possible the accurate understandings between lovers. It is also the same rapport which enables total strangers in a college "thuse" to find genuine friendships, or enables participants hi an encounter-group to find revelations for themselves and fraternal tolerance in a matter of hours.

The same rapport -- which comes otherwise only in flashes or in fragmentary dreams, may bring us brief insights about dead relatives -- but still comes to us without any explanation as to the reason for such dreams being so fragmentary. We must find a way of asking.

And to do this we must study the nature of moods more deeply. We have only scratched the surface. I have a feeling that we will know more about other dimensions, when we have become proficient at finding a union or rapport with the intelligences of other dimensions, and this may in turn require that we learn to alter our state of being, -- which means we must become less body-oriented, and function more from impersonal

Unfortunately, as we are now, our personality-oriented Wanner of communicating not only with others, but even with ourselves inhibits communication on this dimension, and precludes any self-knowledge here.

To change our state of being is advisable even on the mundane dimension. And something is definitely preventing us from having a two-way communication with departed human intelligences. Presuming that we receive messages from them, it is very rare that we get a direct message. We have to either be visited by dream-moods, or have indirect, cryptic dreams, or dream scenarios which are difficult to interpret. We must be Realistic if we wish to find the Real. Our earth-language may well be the pit talk of vipers. And by earth-language I mean all of our theological and social understandings.

Question: You mentioned a couple of things, you said first of all that you cannot remove a mood and then you said later on that you have to survive a mood and become a better person. How come you say that you cannot remove the mood? Can't you change the environment and change the mood?

Rose: Not while you are in it, because it is basically, it is just like a fellow that drops acid into his stomach, so he gets into a mood, and he says, hey I want out, and he doesn't get out. It plays itself out, and a mood is pretty much the same thing. I believe that what I am saying is self evident. You have to view extremes if you want to understand anything. We can argue about moods for a long time, but you take a man, let's say that is awaiting death in the electric chair. You can't remove that man's mood by any type of argument, he will have to run through it.

Question: He can't change his environment.

Rose: He can change it after he wakes up, or if he ever gets out of jail, or if he engages in some philosophic watching of that mood. It will become less and less influential, that's the point.

Question: If the man was going to be electrocuted and suddenly he got released from jail, his mood would obviously change because he was removed from the mood, circumstances, that's why I don't understand what you are saying that you can't remove yourself from the mood because I think that if you change the circumstance....

Rose: Sure, but I am saying that you can't change it while it is on you, sure you can change it... you know what happened to you after the mood passes and you can say that I am not going to get myself into that situation again, that's what everyone tries to do.

Question: So from the experience you learn....

Rose: Right. Now you take some people, they don't. Take the alcoholic, I don't know too much about drug addiction but I came up in an alcoholic age, long before the pill. What does the alcoholic do, he gets into a mood, a depressive mood, and instead of him coming out of that he deepens and deepens until it kills him, until he can't get out of it. This is an old story, he justs gets into a deeper... and what is it? It is a combination, again I say that it is a combination of a wrong reading of a nostalgic urge. He remembers the time when his mother admired him, his wife loved him, his children respected him. That's Nostalgia. He sees a beautiful picture that he can't get back into, and he degrades himself with the regret, -- so he can't pull himself out of it. A majority of the people who get themselves into deep moods, require somebody else to pull them out. Now I say sometimes they get out, but what happens is that there is a strange egotistical repetitious circle to an alcoholic, most alcoholics that is. They get free of it, momentarily, and they are profoundly convinced that they are free of it forever, -- but maybe they are just dry one day, -- and they say, oh, I've got it licked, -- now I can take a little drink. He takes a little drink and two or three and then the depression is worse than it ever was before, because he has slipped again. Yet I believe that it is possible, but it is very difficult, to get out of a mood. But the main thing... and there has been a lot of data thrown out here today, -- I think that it is very important for you to be aware of and that is first of all that the states of mind are the most profound influences on man. You can go down the street and a billboard can throw you into a mood, but you will not be aware of it, and in that mood you may pick up a brick and throw it through a plate glass window or punch a policeman and wind up in jail. And when the People in jail ask, "What did you do... what happened... what went wrong?" you will probably reply that you did not really Know what brought on your anger.

You are not going to say, "I was in a mood." Very few People are aware of the fact that everything that they do is caused by moods. What is a mood? A mood is a profound feeling with conviction. This is the definition. It is not just a fanciful thought. There is the difference between a perception and a mood. The perception is the billboard. The mood is a whole state of mind that is awakened by the billboard.

To give you another example, the seduction thing is very strong, but it passes. It is not quite so addictive because nature has put in a factor so that eventually you get tired. But you get into a contradictory situation. I have heard guys say, "Boy, I wouldn't associate with that woman for any amount of money." And the next thing you see them going down there with a dazed look on their faces, arm in arm. The mood is on them, and they don't know what happened. Don't say anything to them or you will get in trouble, see....

Question: At the peak of each person's childhood he had a certain intuition and the maximum at that time. I was wondering if you could give some time when that would be in?

Rose: Intuition is present in the very young, but it is lost to seduction. There are certain mental characteristics of childhood that reach their peak at different times with different children. For instance I think that this demonstrates that a child loses his value because of seduction because his intuition diminishes with seduction. This is one of the reasons why I make a loud noise for morality, especially in regard to little children. I don't believe in allowing anyone who has had the temerity to have kids to allow those children to be thrown into improper moods, or to be destroyed. What some consider education may even be destruction. Now I am going to say something that I can't prove, but for what it's worth, I believe that a child when it is born is not totally present, not as aware of us as we are of it. Some of you who have had children may have picked this up about your children. I didn't pick it up until my grandchildren were born. I knew of it but I didn't really have time to look at my own children. I had time to look at my grandchildren a little closer. The child is angelic, and the child, when it is first born, and for a period of time, (provided it hasn't been born into too rude an atmosphere,) lives in a different plane, -- has a direct mind perceptibility, and as the child gets older it drops this by virtue of seduction. We seduce the child. How do parents seduce the child? You sing lullabies, you scream at it, you shout at it. You make crazy noises and motions to attract its attention. And, I've watched children through these different stages. I've mentioned this before and there have been quite a few women who have been mothers who sensed this. But I have been fortunate enough to get inside my granddaughter's head, and I could see that she was an adult mind in a dream state. Peeping out occasionally and saying what is that nightmare? What is that old character with the whiskers doing here tormenting me? Or something like that.

There is a vague reaction of irritation at first, but after awhile, the child comes out of its shell.

And then the teacher gets ahold of it. And the parent laboriously says apple, food, eat, and repeats and repeats. And the kid says to itself "Damn it, if I am going to eat I am going to have to learn those words."

So he becomes seduced into this business of living with relative language, when he had a direct mind before.

There is no alternative to this method of raising infants, unfortunately, Although I think that some primitive peoples don't care so much about whether the kid becomes a genius or not or that they show a tremendous rate of adjustment. I was out West and saw those little Navajo kids playing out in the desert and they seemed to be tremendously aware of a lot of things... right on the edge of the Grand Canyon. And the parents weren't a bit concerned about them falling off, (they were within three feet of a tremendous drop of a thousand feet.) Those children struck me as having a wisdom, a basic direct mind capacity that we have somehow lost for our children. It seems that the name of the game is, get your kid brutalized as quick as possible because that will help him withstand the brutality of life, and you know the strain that he has to go through in competition.

Question: You talked about moods and moods in a dream. You really have two moods going on, one in your present state, your conscious state, the other in the dreams. How do they relate to each other?

Rose: That's the reason when I talked that I didn't separate them too much because they carry over. In other words when you are in the waking state the man that sits in jail gets into a mood and he is awake, but he is in touch with the same type of fear mood that he would have in a nightmare, and sometimes he awakens and he doesn't know whether he is still asleep or not, because he doesn't know which side of the fence he is on. But these have the same symptoms and the same destructiveness and the same benefit whether you are awake or asleep. Yet what I maintain is that there is more conducted through the sleep. There is more conducted. The mood is subject to the influences of the setting and the physical position. When a man is walking, he is more logical, he becomes pragmatic. When he is sitting down he becomes receptive, and when he is in the yogi posture he may even have visions, he may even have great mental revelations. But it is when he is horizontal that the ordinary layman has the contact with the direct mind. That's my belief.

Question: Could you go through something like kleptomania ... as compared to a mood?

Rose: Well you see, the kleptomaniac is carried away with the conviction, the predator-conviction, which is the seductive conviction. He is in a seductive mood. And some kleptomaniacs combine sexuality or fetishism with their criminal act, -- this is a combination of different moods. His actions appear to him as being logical if not heroic... in that he sees a simultaneous conquest of two fears at once, -- the fear of jail and the fear or guilt associated with sex.

So he builds up a logic and he justifies himself. But again as I said, that mood is subject to the nostalgic mood, and when that hits him, it will wipe out some of his self-justification.

Question: The nostalgic mood will wipe out the kleptomania? Yes?

Rose: Right. I maintain that you don't have to have any ethical or moral background at all to pick this up. The aborigines of Africa don't have any libraries, but they have an extremely accurate moral code. And they have no penitentiaries. I think that we confuse ourselves a lot of time by trying to verbalize, justify and then by giving the judge a thousand or ten thousand dollars on appeal, rather than just have a way of living that is true to our constant intuitions.

Question: You said that the mood was highly dependent on the embodiment or the characters of the... Where does this... cannot there not be enough background.... ?

Rose: That is what I am getting at, for instance, why does a man who lays down to sleep dream of something that happened forty years ago when nothing seems to be the cause... Hell, the psychologists will say that something kicked it in, the past, the memory bank. See, I maintain that when the person consciously leans too far, something in the soul brings it back, and the only language that the soul can do it through is through a mood.

Question: Where is this thing installed?

Rose: Sure, it is bad for me to use something that I don't define. Let's say that if we had all of the computations that went through the computer, -- an open computer and took in all of the knowledge that could possibly be, -- and I am talking about knowledge about the blueprint of the creation, -- why the animals are, why the cat eats the mouse, why we are here and all of this sort of thing, -- this total computation and the rendition of that answer would be the voice of your soul. Now I am using the word soul because... only because of my own personal discovery.

Question: ... talking about only the knowledgeable?

Rose: Right, it is a language known to all. Of course I have -- if we get into the description of God -- I have a different description, I have a different understanding. I believe that the soul of man is God.

I don't believe it. (response to something said in audience)

That's my experience.

Question: Where did the soul of man come from?

Rose: Does it have to come from something? Or couldn't it just be? It is.

Question: If the soul of man can just be, why can't we just be?

Rose: Because we are not the soul of man. We are not the soul man. We are the shadows in the cave of Plato.

My perspective has a certain simplicity that doesn't care to argue. I know that I haven't argued or played games with myself. Very reluctantly, -- I do not use the word God because I am afraid that my definition will lead people to believe a certain thing, or a traditional concept, dictionary definition. Also about when I talk about the soul of man. Now you can't create anything, except temporarily. For instance, when a person heals somebody.... (comment from audience) Yeah I follow you, sure, absolutely, see that is what I am saying, I say that through this, through touching these moods, you touch an eternal something, this is the only door.

As I told you, I met this man from Texas that had this experience that we listened to about him in a garage. The experience that he had was altogether different from mine, but yet I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that, even though we didn't even talk, that our minds were one. I knew that his experience and mine were one. And you can do this with every human being. I don't believe that it should be forced though, if you want to have the patience you can come face to face with people.

We have a little exercise that we do in the esoteric group, to facilitate this. It is called a rapport session, in which you sit down and read the mind of the other person, or let yourself, don't force, let yourself read the mind of the other person. And the more that you do this, the more of a brotherhood that you attain, because there are no arguments, you understand. This is the whole thing.

And yet when you get on this mundane lifestyle, we are filled with prejudice, and then we have to be, this is part of the jungle, the cat has to be prejudiced about the mouse, we have to be prejudiced about the rabbit if we are going to eat him, see, we can't accept him as a brother. But the Indian did, he ate his brother, but apologized, and then ate him. We cannot control that which is part of the plan. That struck me as being very sensible, the Indian's method of saying, "I am going to kill the neighboring tribesman because there isn't enough buffalo for the both of us, so one of us has to go, so let us do it with ritual."

But I maintain that this is what I am getting, -- maybe I should have said from the beginning, -- that there is no realization of God by verbal, logical analysis, -- that the only way that you are going to realize it is through the mind itself. As Jung said, "back through the center."

In the book that I have written I talk of the camera analogy. Don't look at the pictures on the wall. Try to turn around and go back through the projector. There is where the creation came from. What you see on the wall are the shadows that were seen on the wall by Plato. In other words... everything that is in front of us... are shadows in the cave of Plato. But when you go back through yourself and find this common language then you also find that there is nobody out there but you.

You can't describe absolute factors. That is the reason why I had trouble writing, because you are talking about the totality of things which are. In other words, I have said that it is the knowledge or the experience of nothingness and everything-ness simultaneously, and that doesn't tell you too much. Now I could go on and say something else and bring you maybe a little closer, but these things were written. I wrote the book in this fashion, that basically you would realize... one of the first things that you would realize is that you don't exist, especially as you think you are.

You go take a look in the mirror and you are very happy with what you see there. "Oh look at what God piled on this earth to grace it and make other people jealous." But after a while you realize that you are a blob and that you are waiting for them to dig a hole to put it in so that it won't smell the place up, and that is you as far as your logical proof is concerned. That's you, that is all there is to you, logically, just what you see. Now, if there is something else, how do you find it, and if you find it, how do you define it? In terms of the body which doesn't exist?

Question: Is it a temporary condition or an eternal...? Rose: No it is permanent. Let's put it this way, you don't, you are not living it now. You have to eat, that's relative. The relative world is necessary or else you have to abandon it totally. So you came back on the stage.

Question: How do you... in the first part of your talk you were talking about the brightness of dreams, and the percentage of the brightness of dreams, and you didn't expand on that. What if a person had color dreams, and light and bright all of the time, what then?

Rose: Then I would say that you would have to set a whole new scale for judging the nostalgic element, which ones have it. But see, what I was trying to determine was a dream-mode. I am quite sure that everyone sitting here has had dreams... but I have heard some people say that they don't dream. Others claim that everyone dreams but forgets it rapidly. But I maintain that a majority of people have gray dreams, I mean that the majority of their dreams are somber, you know dull, no voice, no music, no perfume, so what is it that has this tremendous impact or emotion upon the person? Now as I said in the movies they have the violins, and colors, smells, touches and all of this sort of thing. They are not there in dreams but yet this mood is impelled. But the only way that it can be impelled is through memories that were nostalgic and with it comes this feeling that this is it, that this is the... mankind's voice of rectitude, this is the evenness, this is the even voice of man. And I don't mean conscience either, some people confuse it with conscience, conscience is sometimes a disease or a sickness, it is not always accurate.

Question: Then you are saying then that the nostalgia that a person dreams is dependent upon his personality? Rose: No, no, I would say that if a person didn't have it that very possibly they are minus a faculty of communication, that's all, maybe everyone doesn't have it. The only way that we can tell is probably to go through and ask.... Let's do it here. How many here have never had any nostalgic dreams? Nobody, see. How many here have had gray dreams? There are only very few hands that are not up. So now I am supposing that very possibly we have some people that Nostalgia doesn't come to in a gray dream, or doesn't come in a horizontal position. But maybe it is a purple dream, or maybe it is when the sun is shining, but nevertheless I maintain that this spirit of Nostalgia is a language. It is what I maintain the psychologists are missing, if they are wanting to talk to people, -- talk possibly about a direction to get into a person's mood for the sake of therapy.

I think that moods are classified. And as I said we are programmed by nature to have short Seduction moods like the hunter kills his prey and eats it and then he forgets about killing. A person has dreams and a Seduction mood of sex, but the whole thing culminates and then he forgets it. Even the result of sex moods will somehow be negated by this nostalgic mood. In the nostalgic mood you may regret that, for instance the little cabin back in the rose bushes was destroyed by a seduction of the lady next door, you see everybody has to leave the flover covered cottage-syndrome. So then in the nostalgic mood tie person is saying "Oh boy, if I had to do it all over again I would have my children, my wife with me and things would be, eternally."

Because why? Why? How many people have not felt that actions are eternal, in other words what happens, we go through school and when we graduate from high school Nostalgia settles on us, because we can no longer go through this competitive achievement, fraternity thing, by fraternity I don't mean fraternities. I mean fraternization, -- this camaraderie, -- the spirit that pervades, -- that we would like to see go on forever.

No. No. We know that we have to leave it. We have to go on to more experiences. The same thing occurs when a kid drops out of class. A tremendous Nostalgia, that the ship is going off without him. As though he will never catch it again. And then we go on into marriage, we go out and get a job and get married, and we are very much in love, and it is like a drink of wine. You get a unique taste of wine and you spend, -- you spend the rest of your life trying to get that same damned taste back, and that is what marriage is. The nostalgia of once more getting that rare experience. And yet there is a beauty there, there is an eternality to that beauty, you've got it -- you don't go back and try to recapture, for all eternity, the beauty that existed between any two people -- you can't have it twenty-four hours a day, but at the same time unselfish union with a beautiful friend is there forever. Even though you follow it up by bad memories, or destruction of the relationship.

Question: Do you agree with Paul Brunton when he talks about the state of dreamless sleep, when there are no dreams, when it's a deeper state when we are actually in contact with what he calls the Overself?

Rose: No, I think that Paul Brunton wrote a tremendous lot after talking with Hindu gurus. I think that you possibly go through... there is a mood that you go through that occurs shortly before you reach your realization... and that mood is of course.... I think that it is imposed upon you, by a combination of something deep in your own nature with possibly some outside help.

Outside help, -- what is that? Take a guess. Some people call it spiritual help, people from the other side or God... meaning the universal spirit of man... trying to come through the mud and clay. And then there is an internal urge and this outside help helps to bring about this realization and it occurs through a mood, the mood is one of hopelessness and death, despair. This is logic, -- logic says that you are nothing but mud, and you face that, you face it with your whole being, you know that this is it, and then you go through the death experience. You die. And so consequently I don't know that there is any... this is almost ambiguous, that there would be a dreamless sleep, how could there be a dreamless sleep, how could there be any value, any realization. As soon as there is a realization there is a dream, or a consciousness, now, if you are talking about a person getting into a place where there are no thoughts, no dreams but intense awareness... this only occurs after the death experience. Brunton may be pointing to Sahaja Samadhi, -- if that is what he means by dreamless sleep. But to be sure you would have to refer to what guru or teaching he referred to at the time, and what level they were talking about.

Question: Let's go back to Nostalgia again, since it .occupies such a large part of our life. It seems like you are almost saying that it is dangerous, in other words, stay away from the mass media, television, movies, etc. because they kind of drag you into it. Is that the implication that you are trying to give?

Rose: Well, the thing that irritates me about the media is, of course I don't mind the nostalgia-element, but I don't want them to use it selling cigarettes and other things. Lemonade has to be grandpa in the rocking chair selling it, and this I resist because it is not the universal language, it is an imitation of the universal language. It appeals and hits you there and you say, "Oh, this must be the truth about lemonade."

We think like a child. We talk about the seduction of the child at Christmas time. A child becomes seduced but they get the feeling after a while and they revolt against the idea of Santa Claus when they find out that he does not exist. But when they pick up the spirit of Christmas later on, they unconsciously fall back into the mood, and they want to perpetrate this forever. Confused, for the rest of their lives they survive by guessing. Most young people, -- until they are clear out of college, spend the better part of their time guessing what to do to be in conformity with the rest of society because the moods of society change so rapidly. So if you watch peoples' actions you will see them going through this, especially young people pretending. I watch girls practice gossiping, or they get in a group and try to cluck like the old grandmother, and they think that is what they should do. The boy pretends that he is a rooster, and he is supposed to be the protector of the weak or something. So he takes karate lessons and goes strutting around trying to impress everybody. Everybody is trying to be heroic, in their earlier days ... until they get tired of playing the game and then they don't give a damn. And then you can relax. But most young people that I find are trying to guess the language, and they are always guessing the pollyannic thing that is imposed upon them by the people that don't want their stores crashed into. They help build up Christmas spirit and all of these utility companies are saying work together. And all of these songs that are written are telling us that we should work together. But we are never going to get interested enough to work together. See, why work together... why work for somebody who is stealing you blind. But it is so sweet to think that everybody is working together, -- this comes from that nostalgic sense that maybe these thieves will get harmonious, if everybody is kind. And I am always reminded of the flower children that would come with their heads all bandaged up while bringing flowers to the police department. It just doesn't work.

Question: You mentioned that dreams that we lave during the night and the dreams that we have during the lay... that the events that happen during the day go in the dreams that we have at night?

Rose: Yes, I think that this accounts for a percentage. Remember that I said that we took one form of dream only. A lot of dreams are prophetic dreams or reactionary dreams. Prophetic dreams are neither fearful nor seductive, they just seem to be... maybe an intelligence is trying to communicate with us. Or for some reason we can see into the future. But I don't think that the daytime influences Nostalgia-dreams unless the factor is a custom, a family event or, an embedded cultural thing. And I don't think that it becomes an imbedded cultural thing unless it conforms to Nostalgia.

Question: Dreams shut off when you wake up or I got a feeling ... like whenever the sun comes up you are still there dreaming?

Rose: Well, maybe a lot of things go on inside your head but the way we gauge them is by what I call the shutter of consciousness. There is only one I, we basically can only have one thought at a time. It is like a camera shutter, we only open and close upon one thought, and now you may have some in rapid succession... so it looks like it is flipping back and forth, rapidly to the point where you might think that you are doing two things, but you only think one thing at a time, so you are watching a dream, sure, you are watching that type of experience you will continue to watch until maybe after you wake up. If you do you are going to see the vision in the room.

Question: What I was getting at was the actual under-structure, I feel like when I wake up that the pictures are....

Rose: That is what I am talking about. This is what I maintain that if you have a strong nostalgic dream or even a fearful dream, nightmare, you will lay there in bed and puzzle. I have just been kind of frozen and said to myself, -- why get up, let's analyze this while it is still fresh in my mind. Where is this coming from? This is a real world which we visited in sleep. It is like entering a dimension with LSD or something. This is as real as the day-tune. And then later you realize, after a bit of introspection, that the biggest part of what happens to you during the day is unreal. It is created, it is colored, to a point where our little reality is endangered. There is a limited number of factors that can be used on a dream, to make it impressive. There is a tremendous lot more factors that can impress us in our daytime experience. I am inclined to believe that when you meet a person in a dream, the thing that attracts you about that person is that person's Self, that is their real Self, despite their external personality. You go right to the heart of that person. Whereas the person that you meet in daytime, you have perfume, you have music, and the words are musical. The putty and lacquer and the dresses and this sort of thing, -- they add to it. But in a dream you are going directly to a person, and there has to be an intense thing there, as I said that carries over, and this is what we long to meet. This is what Nostalgia is, it is a longing for the permanence of that experience, and it has to be a profound experience because it is limited to the senses, to the number of sensory registers, that are within the mind.

Question: About the nostalgic mood that we slip into or slide into....

Rose: I think that you have them during the day, I think that there are certain things that will cause them, traumas, traumas may cause them. It depends again on the way your head works, I think that there are certain things as I said that, -- I named the different things that are conducive to Nostalgia, certain colors, certain musical instruments, words, certain pictures. Jung talks about the giant trees and boulders in his dreams. I think that that's the archetypal memory coming out, that may even be nostalgic, it seemed to have been nostalgic with him hi fact. And the mind goes on in a kind of a scramble to piece this together, when it wakes up. Why the trees? And the thought will come to the waking person, -- was this what I was two thousand years ago? So I think that nostalgia is provoked but it more or less visits people who have a poetic sense. The old theaters, some of the old plays contributed tc Nostalgia. You don't get them anymore, there is a new theme out, it is Seduction, and this isn't a good sign for civilization. But maybe it will pass. The old theme was Nostalgia. And now it is Seduction, and Acquisition, -- you can't go to one of these porno movies and be carried back in time.

Question: Would you say that someone who's experienced a realization or enlightenment or found the Truth would then be an enlightened man... would one person remember more of this total knowledge than another, isn't there a way for that person to expand consciousness?

Rose: No. First of all there is no knowledge, there is no Knowledge. The second thing is when you are everything there is nowhere to go, there is no expansion. See this is one of the misnomers of course. The theory of mind-expansion is valid up to this point, -- up to the point of final death or final realization.

== end ==
END
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1975-1119-Lecture-at-Boston-College-from-DME

2026-01-11T20:59:06Z

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[[Category:1970s]]
[[Category:Page Needs Work]]
[[Category:Published]]
[[Category:SearchWithin.Org]]
[[Category:Direct-Mind Experience]]
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[[Category:Has Talk Page]]
[[Category:To Resolve]]
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== Data Template ==

{{Recording Data
|record-date = November 19, 1975
|location = Boston College, Chestnut Hill, McElroy Hall
|number-tapes =
|source = Jake and Dave Mettle. Bart's tapes also labeled 1975-1119 Boston College
|other-recorders =
|other-versions = Note: This is the same as [[1977-0311-University-Maryland-Baltimore]]
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s =
|total-time =
|transcription-status =
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf = Note: the PDF on SearchWithin.Org is reproduced below, but does not match the recording
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks = Mentioned in PZS newsletter November, 1975, and in Boston PZS newsletter Nov. 6, 1975
|audio-quality =
|who-is-present =
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

== Notes and To-Do ==
See the many comments on page [[1975-1119-Boston-College-date-conflict]]

Tapes labeled [[1975-1119 Boston College]] are not this talk.

Question as to naming and venue, the misnaming of [[1977-0311-University-Maryland-Baltimore]]

Check the auto-transcript against the book text (this page).
== Transcription ==

=== Title, etc ===

Lecture at Boston College
November 19, 1975

=== Lecture ===

I'm appearing here not just as the writer of a book. The Albigen Papers was written by me after many years of experience and research in philosophic, religious, and psychological systems. At the time of writing it I had no idea of even having a group. I thought it would be a good idea to put something down in case somebody stumbled across it later, and the group appeared while I was writing the book.

Our society is strung over the northeastern part of the country. We have several groups in cities near universities, and a rural ashram. The ashram is in West Virginia and we have centers in Cleveland, Columbus, Kent, and Akron, Ohio and in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Where the groups exist people can work more actively. They have weekly meetings for discussion and study of ways and means: how they can help each other to keep their heads on what they are doing, on the path, so to speak.

We have a loose-leaf folder here with photographs of the ashram and that sort of thing that you can look at if you're interested after the talk.

Next I'd like to tell you something about myself. The reason for this is not to bore you with somebody's biography, but that I think that it is very important in dealing with abstract matters to be able to judge the person who is speaking.

We're talking about a subject that can't be discussed,--Zen is something that you can't draw pictures of, with language. At the same time we must communicate some way,--that's what we're here for. It has been said that people who know about Zen don't try to communicate with the general public, but I don't think that there is really a good excuse for not talking.

There is another saying, of course, that those who know don't talk, and those who talk don't know. To me, there would be no knowledge at all if things weren't said. So I think that this expression serves as a clever cover-up for those who don't know. By virtue of keeping silent, of not answering questions, they hide the fact that they're running a racket and really don't know anything about the human mind. Down through the ages someone had to say something, or you wouldn't even know that these people and systems existed.

I have been at this thing all my life, and most of the things that have happened came by accident. I didn't go out with a definite plan to form a group.

And I never have believed in forming a group for the purpose of supporting me,-- the groups that exist do not support me. There are no fees. If you buy a book you pay for printing costs only. If you take a room at the ashram you pay a minimal fee,--so minimal in fact that we get a lot of dharma bums who try to get in, so we screen them a bit.

=== Yardsticks ===

I don't believe that the truth has a price on it. When I was quite young I realized that I had a lot of cults and isms to look into, and I made up my mind that I would set up some yardsticks, or I would be spending two hundred years looking through the cults for the truth. Knowing that I had only a limited period of time before my head started to harden up, I figured that I would have to stick pretty close to these yardsticks. You can find some of these scattered in the books that are available, and I have compiled a list of them in The Albigen Papers.

First of all, there is no price on truth. If you're holding meetings you may have to chip in to pay the light bill, or something of that sort, but I don't believe that any man should be supported by any other man. And there are a lot of excuses used for being supported.

Another yardstick is that I don't believe that truth has a geographic region. I don't believe that you have to go halfway around the world to find the truth. I believe that the truth exists within. It may exist in Asia, but going there can be an outward form of laziness which is a substitute for going within. The truth may exist in the Kabbalah, but it takes a long time to learn the symbolism of the Kabbalah and I don't think it's necessary even to get into that.

I believe that certain cults and isms have too much regimentation,--too much rank, ritual, and that sort of thing. Too much secrecy is another one,--this can be avoided. You hear things like, "We can't let you into the inner temple because you haven't learned the secrets. You have to go through so many degrees and get the secret handshake before you're allowed into the inner sanctum." To me this is absurd, and I have all my life rejected these before I even approached any closer.

And in this manner I rejected almost everything I met, especially in my youth. I started out at this quite young; at the age of twelve years I went away to be a priest in the Franciscan order. (They took them that young,--I don't know if they still do or not.) I decided to do this because I thought as a child that God communicated with the priests and the nuns. I thought that if anybody is going to know about this thing then these people should know,--they've been in this all their life.

So I went away, and I lasted about five years or so. And I came to the conclusion that they didn't have any more knowledge of the thing than I did.

From that time until about twenty-one years of age I just floundered around looking into everything I could get my hands on with the limited amount of cash that I had, because that was back during the depression.

One of the things I looked into was Spiritualism. The thought occurred to me that if you want to know what happens to you at death, talk to the dead. Go find a dead man and talk with him. There were a lot of phonies, but I had heard that there were genuine materializations. So I went around the country and sorted through the phonies until I found a genuine materialization and I talked to some spirits.

And like Omar Khayyam I came out that same door wherein I went. The dead didn't know too much more than the living person and sometimes knew less. I'll go into that later tonight if you wish. If you're curious about these phenomena it might save you some steps.

There are such things as entities that will materialize, and there are different ways of getting them to materialize. Incidentally, one of the ways is by getting too much dope in you or by playing games while you're on dope,--you can get all sorts of entities to materialize.

After investigating Spiritualism I went into yoga and psychology. The idea was starting to grow in my mind that I should know something about thought. Like in breaking the atom: I said, "Let's analyze thought. If I can find out what the essence of thought is, perhaps I'll know what the mind is. And if I know what the mind is,--I may know what my essence is."

So again,--the books on psychology didn't have the answer. And they still don't,--there's no book yet on psychology that defines the mind. Instead, they very cleverly avoid the mind. Modem psychology is apt to identify the mind with the body. In other words, "What you see is what you get."

=== Change of Being ===

At the age of twenty-one an old saying came back to me from my early theological training, that "the finite mind does not perceive the infinite." And this is what I call a "stopper." When you realize that very possibly you may never perceive the infinite, that you may never find out anything beyond what you see,--the visible physical universe,--it's inclined to stop you. It will seem that the study of its ramifications is infinite and therefore impossible to cover in a lifetime,--impossible to know everything about the physical universe, much less to know what happens to the person's mind at death.

But then it also occurred to me that other people claimed to have breached this obstacle, this wall. And if they had breached it, the only way that they could have done it was by a method of becoming less infinite.

This was the secret. We still say, "Yes, the finite mind will not perceive the infinite," but there is a chance that this finite mind can change, can gather to itself tools, a new vehicle. And I realized that a person has to become,--you do not learn.

Oh, you can learn things,--you can read umpteen books on bardos and purgatories. Swedenborg has quite a shelf full of books on what goes on in heaven and hell. You can read all sorts of things, but in the final analysis, when you're reaching to go beyond the relative bardos or universal-mind concepts, you have to change. You have to become, not learn.

Now I know that this might provoke argument, but it's not something that we can argue about. It's something that came to me by virtue of intuition,--it didn't come logically. Just that my intuition told me that this is what these people did. I had read accounts of yogis and other people who had made enormous strides, and I realized that they must have had to find some method of changing.

So I set about looking for it. In those days all that I had, and all that was available, were books (it wasn't until fifteen years later that I met a Zen teacher). The books on yoga then had pretty much what you're getting today. What we have today is the old stuff warmed over with a little variation,--they throw in a little bit of this or that. Like with our prescription drugs,--add another drop of water, a hydrogen radical or something, change the name, and you can charge a new price.

This is what happens to our cults,--as soon as the people become aware of a certain gimmick there is a slight variation given, a new name, and you get more of the same. For example, we had something similar to TM. It was the Pronunciation of the Holy Name. This is supposed to bring you in touch with a certain intelligence. In yoga it was "OM." Now OM means little more than "I am." But yet by the concentration on this you are brought into a state of quiescence, serenity, and peace with the world. And I languished in that peace for seven years, thinking that any day now there would be a more beautiful theme breaking and I would be in the middle of a revelation. And,--nothing happened.

=== Work with a Group ===

I then sort of awoke to certain things and came to some conclusions. One thing was that I had been working alone. Because of having run into so many disappointments in looking into cults and certain isms, I did not believe that there were very many other people looking. There are many more people today by far looking into esoteric things than there were when I was younger.

I realized that the majority of people who went around these groups were forty years old, except for a very few. Most of them had raised their families and then sort of had a feeling that the game wasn't the way they thought it was, and that they would like to look into other things. By this time their families were raised, but they still had a job to hold onto until they retired perhaps, and they could only read about things or get together once a week or a month to talk about things.

I was pretty much disgusted with that too. I wanted action,--I wanted to get into something heavier. And I came to the conclusion that there was no one around who wanted to work at the level where I wanted to. So for those seven years the only teacher that I had was a bunch of books out of the library.

But then I came to another conclusion: that this is too great a task for one man. An individual working alone tends to forget about it. He can get all fired up and do his mantra, say his prayers, or whatever trip he is on. But after awhile he will get interested in something else and he'll forget all about his original aim, although he may come back to it and play with it again later.

But by associating with a group of people, as they do in Alcoholics Anonymous, you remind each other if nothing else. This gives you a reservoir of communal power. I'm talking about quantum energy now, that exists in any group. Christ said, "When any two or more are gathered together in my name, I am in their midst." Whenever two or more people are gathered together for a positive,--let's say, rather than for a negative purpose, there is power in their midst.

This was something that I had been overlooking. I had been disdainful of my fellow man, thinking "there's no use." There still was no one to talk to though,--there was no one to help, so to speak. There was no one to help me. I had met gurus and other people who claimed to know and I found, as I said, that most of them were phonies. That is, they were interested either in money or in some strange form of sex. And that was enough reason to reject them.

But I still believe that you have to help somebody, and that you have to begin wherever you are. You don't have to run to India. You'll run into somebody who is interested and you can give them a pointer here and there that will save them some time.

=== The Experience ===

The next step in my life occurred when I was about thirty years of age. For seemingly no reason at all I had an experience. I presume that if it hadn't come then, it wouldn't have come.

Of course, the first thing a person will say when they hear about this is, "Well, this fellow was so darn hungry that he created it." And this can happen,--people build up a great thirst and then create the object. They create their own heaven, so to speak.

And I questioned the experience myself. I would be inclined to go along with this explanation but for the fact that the experience was spontaneous,--I didn't know what was happening,--and that the results were so astounding and so much opposite of what I expected.

I had anticipations of reaching some ecstatic beautiful field of flowers or Lord knows what. And because I found something utterly devastating and contrary to all my other preconceptions, I knew it could not be a creation of my desire. Because I didn't desire, as I entered it, I found what seemed like oblivion.

This was twenty-seven years ago. Of course immediately after this happened I thought that it would be nice to talk to some people about it. So that if I ran into somebody who had the same tenacity, the same desire and direction, I could give them a few pointers. Especially on what to avoid, because I think that I made a lot of mistakes in my youth because I didn't have a teacher myself.

Well, I found out first of all that I didn't have the necessary language. You can't just go out and talk to people about it, because they won't understand. I once met a man who had reached Enlightenment through meditating on the Lord's Prayer. I met him about fifteen years ago. This man had no language either. All he could say was, "Meditate on the Lord's Prayer,--just do what I did." And no one ever took his advice, because everybody is too familiar with the Lord's Prayer.

But for this particular man this was his medicine, his focal point or koan. He focused on it so intently that something had to crack.

Now the same thing will not work for everyone. But he went about traveling from town to town trying to tell people. And I listened to his story, the account of his experience. It was one of the most profound and genuine experiences I had ever heard,--he was in this experience for around ten days. He wanted to use up the rest of his life helping people. But he was getting nowhere,--he wasn't helping anybody.

I realized the same thing about myself. Merely having an experience does not give you the ability to convey it or transmit it. So I associated myself with some Zen teachers to study their communication, their method of transmission. You do not communicate it with words,--you don't just sit down and start reading out of some Oriental prayer book or out of some Oriental dogma.

There is a language, a mystical path, associated with Zen that is not clearly described in other groups. Because if it had been mentioned in the Christian religion I would have looked into it. After I came full circle, after I had gone through this experience, then I discovered that some of the things in the Christian faith pointed at this truth. Yet it isn't explained to the people.

One reason for this is that people have a certain level, and you can't talk to them except with what their ears can hear. The majority of the people are vegetating, so the leaders give them the blessings, pacify them as they're dying, and encourage them while they're living. They try to keep them from getting into trouble, from civil disobedience, and try to make their lives as placid as possible. That's basically what our organized religion does today, because the majority of the people don't want anything else. People want to lead the pleasure game,--they're attached to the pleasure trip.

So anyway, after I had this realization I looked back then and saw certain accounts, such as the one of Saint John of the Cross. And I realized that John of the Cross had made the trip. And remembering my earlier training, I was rather irritated that my teachers in the church had not tried to bring this out to those who were sincerely looking. Especially to the theological students. This was in a seminary,--why didn't they bring this out? But they only gave out indoctrination on faith. In other words, "Believe this."

I maintain that you should believe nothing, including what I say as well. You should doubt. To doubt is sacred,--to believe is foolishness. Because believing is an easy way out,--it's a cop-out.

It's easy to just say, "Yes, yes, I believe you, I believe what you're saying,--what do I do? Say three prayers? Chant the mantra?" People want a gimmick,--even ask to be slapped around. They do this in some Zen schools, you know. The student says, "Oh, do anything to me. I don't want to have to perform mental effort."

But tell that person to attack his mind with his mind, and he doesn't know what you're talking about. He wants definitions then, and that sort of thing. He's still trying to find a gimmick. Something tangible that he can play with, rather than just looking inside his own head.

=== The Group/The Book

After communicating with the Zen teachers I met, I still saw no chance of finding people who were interested. That was just a few years ago, in fact. I only found people who were interested in playing games. "Let's play the guru game."

There's a book by DeRopp that's very good, called The Master Game. It tells about some of the esoteric games people play, and the complexes within us that make us want to play these games. It brings you a new perspective, a new awareness of yourself and your motivation, to see that a lot of the reasons for following a spiritual path may just be a game inside yourself.

So,--I sat down and started to write the book, The Albigen Papers. I thought, "Well, I'll write something and leave it lay someplace, and maybe someone will come across it. If somebody finds it he may get something out of it. If not, at least I have done the best I could."

This is what I believe everybody should do,--do the best you can and don't try to build an empire. Just leave some tracks someplace.

Strangely enough, when I started to write the book some people started to collect around the farm. Just local people, young people,--some of them were dropping acid at the time. And they became fascinated because, first of all, some of them had entered another dimension by accident. And they were very much aware that they had entered another dimension. So they weren't agnostic.

Most young people are very quick to pick up that the older people are spoofing themselves. So usually they say, "Oh well, this religion thing is just part of the stuff that they teach kids to keep them in line." But when a person had a death experience as a result of taking acid, he may enter another dimension. Some of you may know what I'm talking about,--if not, talk to somebody who has taken acid and maybe they can tell you what it is. Sometimes you go through the death experience, and you may enter another dimension.

And as soon as you enter that dimension you realize beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is hope. That if there is another dimension, meaning that the mind is able to leave this body behind, to actually be obliviated to the earth and see another dimension,--there is a possibility to live. Because generally up to that time the mind says that maybe you're kidding yourself, maybe there's nothing out there. So eat, drink, and be merry.

A few people who have had this experience have been able to get interested and to start looking. Some of them didn't. Some of them just went deeper into drugs and over the hill.

And strangely enough again, I believe that if it hadn't been for this we wouldn't have much of a spiritual movement among the young people of today. And if you don't have it among the young people you might as well forget about it. Because people who are past forty years of age, if they start on a spiritual path having never done anything before,--if they have just been eating, drinking, and making merry,--I doubt seriously whether they are going to do too much. By this time they've got themselves into too many traps,--they're too busy. And their heads are starting to harden up.

And I felt that these young people were listening. They said, "Let's meet," and the next thing you know they were meeting out at the farm on Saturdays, sitting in meditation, and even helping me to type the book. I started talking, and then got an invitation to talk in the colleges. I went ahead and the rest of it seemed to fall into place. And everything that has happened has only been circumstances which fell into place,--there was never any decided effort to go out and sell this on the highway.

At this point the problem of communication still existed,--how could I communicate? Well, I had to use the medium of words. The book is composed of words. And words are not the best medium for communication. In matters of Zen the best communication is direct. In this business of becoming, you also learn to have a direct mind-to-mind communication if you want to be successful in bypassing years of argument.

The book by itself isn't quite enough. But if you sit for awhile in groups until you develop what we call "rapport," you can develop an ability to go inside another person's head. Almost anyone can do this with enough practice in sitting.

=== Illusions ===

Now I'm just going to go through some of my notes to give us subject material for talking. The general theme I would like to bring out is this idea of the number of illusions we are subject to. And if possible, I would like to get to this business of direct communication with you. If by some method I can lead your mind into the realization that things are not what they seem to be, it may give you some impetus to look further.

When I'm through, if you're curious, we'll open it up for questions. I don't want to argue, but I do want to respond to curiosity.

Invariably, when I give a talk in a public meeting, there are a few people who are delegates from some particular cult, who are offended because I do not foster what they believe. And I can't help that. I believe that everybody who is fastened to a certain system or cult is there because that is his level, and that is what is necessary for him. So if they're offended, maybe they are in the wrong place here tonight.

I usually get a bit of an argument from a person trying to get me to assert by virtue of their arguments, that their system is very valid and that their system is going in the same direction. So I always say ahead of time that I will not respond to this type of questioning. I will not respond to loaded questions because it will take us away from the direct communication. It only builds tension and argument, and it will take us away from the possibility of intuitively picking up something here tonight, if you think that there is anything worth picking up.

For instance, we have certain conceptions that this world exists in a certain way. That the seats in this room are blue, that this chalkboard is black,--this kind of thing. And I bring this up because in this final experience which we were talking about,--and you have to be more or less prepared that such a thing is possible,--the entire world disappears, as far as we know it today. And that you're not going to hang onto all your dogma, to the belief that you have to take the wife with you when you go to heaven, or that there is such a thing as heaven until you experience it.

We have these conceptions, and the mind rebels when you get into a system of thinking that says that you can't take the dog and the wife with you,--that they're not going to have the same meaning,--or that you can't take all this body's plumbing with you, because there's not going to be anything to eat there.

And in this rebellion the mind says, "I don't want any parts of anything that doesn't give me my type of immortality. Because this is all I know." But this is not necessarily true,--it is possible that you might know something else as you go along.

We have illusory ideas about ourselves as well. In Zen, and also in the Gurdjieff/Ouspensky system, is this pointed finger that says, "You are a robot,--you are mechanical." And you don't like to hear that either.

I was giving a lecture once at the Theosophical Society in Pittsburgh,--there were quite a few older people there. I mentioned the fact that people were robots, and several old ladies informed me rather quickly that they didn't believe that they were robots and they didn't like to hear it.

But this is a possibility that you have to face. Because even in this life, as you get older and you look back upon your past, you realize that you're not the person you thought you were.

Most of you are pretty young but you can look back to when you were five or six years old. You had a concept of yourself, that you were a certain type of creature. You had certain states of mind that carried you in life. And as you got a year or two older you had to change these states of mind, you had to change your perspective. After awhile, the changing of the perspective changes the individual so much that he forgets who he was when he was five years old. He forgets completely a possibly truer or more pure type of mentality. He adjusts and adjusts until he's just another piece of society.

Another thing happens: we believe that somebody loves us, and we live long enough to discover that the person really loves that which we can give. Now again, everybody wants to believe in love, because we're lonely. Somebody asked me at the talk last night about Zen koans. I was strongly tempted to tell them that the greatest koan I ever had was my wife. And I got that after I went through the experience. My children also were koans.

So these realizations prompt us to reappraise our concepts and definitions. We believe that we are doing something, for instance that we are Joe College, or Joe City or Joe Club, that we're the most popular man in the college or in the club because our thinking is commonly accepted there as being perfect. And one day we get into the wrong environment and find that we're getting clubbed on the head with a blackjack or something and thrown into jail and we say, "How can they treat Joe College this way,--this perfect creature?"

We go further and say that we have security in our faith. We believe that if you just hold onto faith that everything will happen well. But we find before we die that we're very insecure, very alone, and somewhat doubting of all this faith that we have. And I have seen many people in my lifetime who had faith all their lives,--but when they died their last half-hour was spent in screaming.

=== States of Mind ===

Any system, religion, or philosophy that does not in its very beginning find for man relief from the confusion of uncertain and changing mind states has no real foundation. In other words, just because some ism appeals to you in a certain state of mind, this doesn't mean that it is valid.

You may or may not be aware of this, but we are strongly subject to states of mind. If you take dope, you will have a state of mind that is entirely different from the one previous. The same if you get drunk or if you are passionate. And the way you'll know this is that when your passions are surfeited you will see that your state of mind changes abruptly because of chemical change, the burning-up of the endocrines in the blood stream or whatever happens.

You will notice in that instant that there are two states of mind in your head, in a very short period of time, that are contradictory. One says "go" and the other says "stop." One says, "This creature (the sex partner) is perfect," and the other says, "Get away." A complete change in convictions,--and yet we like to think that we have a constant and continuous state of mind.

We must first know the self and find transcendence from confusion. It is not enough to read philosophy and Zen,--we must find ourselves. We must find out who is talking, who is reading and studying, who is looking for survival. And we've got to find some safety from vacillating convictions.

We were talking about this business of sanity. Everyone likes to think that he is right, especially as concerning sanity. But we find psychiatrists running into another psychiatrist's couch, plopping themselves down and saying, "Oh my God get your pencil and take this down before I forget it,--I think I'm losing my mind."

And he doubts. He is supposed to be an expert on sanity, but he doubts his own sanity.

In our religious faith, if you take instances of people who believe that God will heal themselves or their children, when it comes a time that the children are in trouble, in danger of dying, we say, "Well,--I could go along with my concept of Christian Science, or just plain belief, whatever it is, but I can't play that game with my child. I have to give my child the benefit of the doctor." And immediately our state of mind changes. Our convictions change.

=== Awareness ===

We get into another thing: what is experience? When we get into spiritual matters we are talking about experiencing something. Are all instances of experience nerve sensation? Modern psychology seems to imply that the body is what is picking this up. If so, what about death experiences, when seemingly all the nerves are inactive? Or the feeling of peace? Are these merely forms of surrender or neural activity? Or is there not an awareness of the whole happening, whether the experience is neural or not?

In other words, do we have a faculty of awareness that is not neural or somatic? Are only the nerves aware of the nerves? Or is there something behind the whole neural system that is aware? Is there an experience that experiences,--an endless experience,--watching ourselves experiencing? Is there a final observer, which you might call an essence?

Another thing is knowledge. I thought when I was young that I would arrive at knowledge by studying psychology and that sort of thing. Everyone has a conception of what is meant by the word, but really, what is knowledge? What type of experience is knowing?

For instance, what do you experience in a musical note? Or a mood? What is the experience of "green-ness"? Are we thrilled by the color green because we depend upon vegetation for our survival, or is there something special about the color itself? Does it just bring back some primitive memory of survival in green areas? Or does green have an esoteric meaning? Does it awaken archetypal memories, or does it awaken something beyond the DNA memory,--something in our very essence or being?

It is now said that the color green is therapeutic,--why would this be? Some time ago, incidentally, a Hindu came over to this country and was using colors to heal people. The authorities thought that he was a real quack so they threw him in jail. This was an old man. But now the hospitals are painting some of their rooms green. They report that certain colors will make people peaceful, while other colors make them turbulent.

Is the reaction to the color green possibly a memory from another dimension? We are talking here basically about experience. We experience a certain color and then we have a certain mood. I can remember a mood reaction I had when I was a kid,--there were certain jelly beans I didn't want to eat because of their color.

Green is supposed to be a color which is developed from light of a given quality or wavelength striking the retina and inspiring a response from specialized nerve-rods. But how do we account for the green that is seen on an LSD trip when the eyes may be closed? The argument is brought up that you are just reawakening an old memory. But the geometric patterns seen in such a trip would rule out this as a possibility because these patterns never seem to have been witnessed before,--they can be entirely new. Or there is a possibility that the dimension you step into may have come about by virtue of going through some color picture.

We can explain it away partially by saying that the vision comes from inside the head. And if we say this, it gives a whole new meaning to experience. It means that colors and experiences come from within rather than from without. So we are not just reactors to an external world, or to a physical world alone.

This indicates that something in our essence responds to a sensory picture,--but how much of all our experiences are limited here by our sensory inadequacy? Science has proven that we have a limited capacity for picking up color. We don't see as well or hear as well as some of the animals. It's very possible that there are wavelengths that we don't pick up at all. So with this inadequate seeing and hearing ability, what is the effect upon us and our world-picture?

We conceive certain ideas about the world, such as by looking out in the sky we say that evidently space goes on forever. And then we read that Einstein or some other mathematician has come up with the concept of the space-time continuum, or the concept that space is curved,--if you went out in a straight line you would end up by coming in behind yourself, or something like this. That space is not out there infinitely, but rather the whole universe may be contained.

The space-time concept indicates the possibility that space does not exist independently of time, nor time of space. That which exists is space-time. And if this is true or even possible then our whole concept of passing days and years may be erratic.

Our whole concept of experience may be inadequate. Now maybe you'll say that I don't have all the scientific facts on these arguments. But I'm just throwing this out, because I do know that we only see partially,--we only witness and experience partially. And the reason I know this is because my experience went beyond this. When it went beyond I could look back and see that there was no such thing as time.

And yet that was yesterday,--twenty-seven years ago,--so there was time. And this takes us into the paradox of the language in talking about these matters. People will say, "Well, either there is time or there isn't,--that either was twenty-seven years ago or it was right now." Well,--I say it is both. Because we're using a relative language to describe a non-relative experience we have to include seeming opposites to try to give a more complete picture.

This analysis of our illusory ideas about the physical world can be extended to our psychological self-analysis. As you get older you may find yourself continually discovering that you're not whom you thought you were. For example, people try to project a certain image,--they try their darnedest to project something that will get them by in their social relationships. They fall in love with somebody and think, "Why, this person can't reject me because I'm projecting a certain image and they have to pick it up." They may not come right out and say this, but everyone acts this way.

But they encounter someone who isn't interested, and who tells them off: "Here's what's wrong with you,--you're a fathead." So there's a letdown.

This psychological letdown happens because we haven't had the proper view of ourself. This is called losing an ego. As we go through this, as soon as one ego is eliminated,--we go back and build a better one. A little bit better this time, a little more cunning, if we're just ordinary people. But if we are philosophically inclined we may drop it. We say, "What's the use of building up this false front? Let's just try to be honest and act naturally, and see if we can't get by that way. But this reaction is not common.

You can't just go in to an authority for help either. We have a new type of priestcraft coming up in our midst, the hierarchy of psychiatry, psychoanalysis, and psychology.

We can't go in to these people and say, "What is the mind? What is thought?" As I said, I find no books on psychology that define the subjective matter. None of them define either the mind or thought,--they bypass it. They describe the mind as "the total being," whatever that is. And that's about the way it is said in the books,--"the total being, the total experience, whatever that is."

But yet we have to read something. We have to start somewhere on this self-analysis, this business of peeling off.

Now why do we want to peel-off or divest ourselves of egos? Because basically we're after the truth, including the truth about ourselves. And after we find the truth about ourselves we may be able to find out the truth about other people as well.

This is what most people seem to be doing today,--finding lots of inequities in other people. It's a great picnic, finding inequities in politicians, leaders, authors, and so forth and saying, "Boy, here's one devil worse than me. Let's hang him and take the attention off me."

Instead of finding the truth in themselves, people criticize others for lying to the public. And all the time we are lying to ourselves about who we are, not collectively but individually.

=== Looking Inside ===

So this is not just a head game. This whole system of spiritual realization depends upon us finding out who we are.

And now you say "Why? Isn't there some other way? Can't I find some chemical, some formula, and let it go at that?" This is what everybody is looking for,--a gimmick. That all you have to do is follow a certain diet, do certain exercises, be good according to certain human principles, and you will go right straight to the good place,--you'll be complete.

We find that when you do start looking into yourself that instead of a greater criticism of your fellow man you may have more compassion for him. You would think that a person who finds himself might say, "I'm better than the rest of these people now." But this isn't true. As you go along you have a greater compassion immediately because you realize that very few people have any degree of control.

This is the amazing thing, incidentally. People think that they are pulling strings, but the majority of people are just responding, just reacting. And everyone is trying to be a manipulator. About half of the people whom I have talked to who went into college to study psychology did it because their heads were mixed-up. The other half wanted to become manipulators.

In other words, factories and institutions will hire professional people who are able to write up tests or whatever in order to sort out which people they want to hire. The type that will be amenable and placid, are sorted out to be used in the factories.

So psychology is being used. And the sad part about it is that the people who are doing it know nothing about this thing we are talking about tonight. All they know is, as with Pavlov's dogs, that if you hold the bone in a certain way people will sit up and beg, people will respond. But this is not knowledge of the Self.

Now as we go through this process of peeling away this error we get into the first step of genuine self-realization. But we do not postulate and say, "Here is a system by which you can annihilate your ego." Because your ego may be the only thing you have,--why should you want to annihilate it? This process is just something that happens when you start searching. You gradually shed certain egos. And after you shed them you're glad you got rid of them. You're glad that you don't have to live with that nonsense. But it is not a matter of going out deliberately trying to annihilate your ego, trying to be forcefully humble, to make yourself a community blob that is inoffensive to the rest of the mob.

=== Reversal ===

One of the reasons why I came out of the woodwork and started to talk was that I found many little cults or isms that pretended to take people into spiritual enlightenment, but that gave no sensible method. Most of them prescribed a certain form of action such as a mantra, a prayer, or a physical exercise,--a physical attack.

But in the particular system that we employ in our group we use the phrase "a reverse vector." There is no way to approach truth, because to approach truth would mean to aim in a certain direction which is unproven. That you must know truth before you can aim at it,--you must know what you're aiming at and also know who is aiming.

Now this may seem like a tremendous task, to aim away from everything that is untrue. This might sound unnecessarily stern. But it is not impossible that we can aim away from untruth.

Of course the question comes up, "What is untrue? If we don't know what 'true' is, how can we know what 'untrue' is?" But we do know that which is ridiculous, or absurd, and we can go back to common sense.

And I cannot in this instance prescribe for you or label what is absurd. What is absurd for you may not be absurd for me, or for the fellow next to you. You have no alternative except to determine what is absurd for you and to get away from it.

A little while ago I said that we should set up certain yardsticks. To me it is absurd to think that money can buy truth. And I immediately turn my back on that type of practice.

So I narrow it down to the groups who don't charge and I search among them. And I find one that says, "You have put the guru up in the middle of your forehead and concentrate on him." Well, that may be meaningful, or that may be absurd in relation to another discipline that may seem to be sensible. So we decide to at least tentatively put the thing that is seemingly more absurd in the background, and to concentrate our attention on what seems to be more sensible.

Now this is the total formula that you follow. And before you get into too much of this business of a reverse vector you have to develop an intuition, or you will not know how to decide that which is absurd. Some things we reject accurately because they are absurd, but sometimes we reject things only because they don't include things which we want to do. In other words, we are good at refusing to accept any philosophy that doesn't approve of all our vices or of all the directions that we would like to take.

Basically we have to develop our intuition and our reason. Now I didn't say "logic,"--logic is often a form of vanity. Intellectual thinking can be a vanity trip. But we have only two things with which to evaluate this problem. Two eyes, so to speak,--we're relative creatures. One of these is our intuition and the other one is our logic, or rather, our reasoning powers.

And we must try as we go along to develop these a little better, so that we will not be kidding ourselves or doing wishful thinking. Now there are ways of developing your intuition. One of them, of course, is by checking it. For instance by using ESP cards,--trying to pick up things directly with your mind and then watching to see if you're getting a greater degree of accuracy.

There are certain mental exercises, such as using mathematics, that can be used. We give an "intensive" of largely mental math exercises, prepared for the purpose of exercising logic, to try to get you to try to think in an orderly manner, rather than in a random, desire manner.

There is a certain lifestyle, a certain way of living that develops your intuition. And the more you have your intuition developed the better able you will be to cut time shorter and to bypass a lot of useless movements and useless books. To go right to the heart of the thing.

If you do pick up a book and read it you will have to know if the author was on the level or if he was just writing a book to sell it. If you don't have an intuition developed it is not going to do you any good to sort, because you may make the wrong decision,--from lack of discrimination.

The next thing to concentrate on of course is, basically, work. You have to get into the place where the material is, with people who know something. You have to join some sort of human relationship, to work with some group if possible, so that you will be reminded to go back when you slip and forget. Reminded to keep digging, keep meditating, or keep some sort of action going that will keep your head on the problem.

Because this process is basically the sharpening-up of a computer. Giving the computer two important faculties, developing these faculties, and then keeping a problem in that computer incessantly. Keep feeding that problem into the computer until the computer solves it.

This process is equated in some Zen schools by the use of a koan. Now I don't like to put the entire value of Zen into the koan, to say that all you have to do is to get a koan,--this seems to be the feeling that is received by some Western students of Zen.

I believe that the koan is pretty much a system of finding sense by the intense application of non-sense. There are not enough symbols existing to adequately describe the truth,--and the more symbols you use the more confused you may become. Whereas, in the Zen technique you take just one set of symbols, one word or so, and you use this as a koan. By concentrating upon it, although it seems to have no meaning, you'll arrive at sense. That's the idea.

Well, this may be. But I would recommend that you take a word or an idea that may have some meaning, and concentrate on it until you know more about it. Of course, you can use then an English koan to a much better advantage. Such as the words, "Who am I?" or "What am I'?" or "What am I doing?" This type of koan is much more effective. And there are variations of it as you go along such as, "What is intuition?" In other words, "What is this thing and how does it help me?"

Now this outline is about as much as can be given out as the generally advised path. The detailed path for the person who is interested in finding self-realization,--that is, total self-realization,--is almost an individual case. You can't just write a general blueprint and say, "Here it is,--follow this." Because you're going to run into many instances of roadblocks that are not in the books. Each personality is different and each set of egos is rooted differently.

Here again the group is of value. Whether there is a teacher or not, some people may be able to help you recognize an ego that you may not be aware of. And it is not always a group confrontation,--the cure for a lot of this is an individual one-to-one thing.

And the business of transmission is generally a one-to-one thing. Transmission is the finding of the ability for direct contact of mind with mind, to communicate energy from one head to another, for the purpose of expediting some mental realization.

== Q&A ==

=== Samadhi ===

And now we will turn this into a more informal talk. I think we will get further by getting into your personal inquiries.

Question: After your experience, what is your present state in relation to your previous state, and what is your present perception?

Rose: Well, again I wonder how it's best to describe what you're asking me. One thing is that I don't take the physical world to be as significant as I used to. When you are in an experience you are out of this dimension. And when you come back you have to be in this dimension,--you can't do it halfway. Nevertheless you always carry with you the memories that this dimension is not real. The other is more real, now.

Paradoxically, while you're here this dimension is real,--it's all you've got. Once again you have to accept it as being totally real,--and yet you have the memory that it is not totally real. That it is not the only dimension.

Question: What do you mean when you talk about dropping certain egos?

Rose: This isn't just idle talk about dropping some little fault or habit. There are tremendous things that are built into us,--they come with the package when we are born. And children have them, although not to the same degree that older people do. For instance, we have a power ego. We like to be impressive with people. But after awhile we may philosophically sort of drop it and say, "Well, I'm not that important." This is an example of an ego and it can be a real hindrance

But there is another ego, and that is the survival ego .... that we don't want to give up this life. If somebody throws a hatchet at us we duck,--we can't just stand there and take it, because we don't have the conviction yet where we're going. So we hang onto this ego.

Then there is the spiritual survival ego, in which we think that we're important enough to live forever. When you are young you look into the mirror and say, "I don't know about the rest of those suckers out there, but I am really a special creature." This is an ego. "Those other people out there are just vegetables, but I am going to find immortality." Well,--before you find it you will give that up. You give up the ego of physical survival and you give up all hope of spiritual attainment.

But you can't give them up for long, because those are the things that keep body and mind together. That's the reason that this experience is a very brief experience. You die,--you actually die,--and you can't stay dead for a long time. And when you come back you've got to get back into the game again.

Question: I was wondering about faith. Don't you have to have faith in your own path?

Rose: You have to have a certain kind of faith. I always say, "Doubt everything except your ability to doubt." You have to have faith in your ability to accomplish, your ability to sort.

There is nothing proven. We know nothing for sure,--we don't even know that we exist. But we more or less have to postulate or accept as a fact that we exist and that we can do something, at least tentatively, until we prove that we can do something. Or,--prove that something can happen to us.

Question: Would you relate something about your experience to us?

Rose: Yes, if you're curious I can tell you. It occurred in Seattle, Washington,--I was thirty years of age at the time and I had been fed-up several times with what I was doing. I had been into yoga and other things, and several times between the ages of twenty-eight and thirty I had given it up and wished I could go out, get drunk, and forget about it. In fact, I had gone to Seattle to get married and I was going to chuck the whole thing. I said, "If I get married, I'll throw it out,--forget about it."

But while I was there I picked up a job, and again I gravitated down toward the library. I'm back down there reading books on yoga, and doing my yoga exercises,--trying to marry the two, the mundane world and this mental drive that I had. I think that this was the catalytic factor that caused the experience,--trying to bring these two together. I could be wrong.

I had a room in an apartment hotel of sorts, and I would come home every day, sit up on the bed with my feet tucked up under me, meditate and think. So this particular day I sat there,--and I started to get a pain in the top of my head, right in the center of the top. The pain got worse,--in fact it got so bad that I started weeping.

Tears started to come out of my eyes. I couldn't stand it, and I thought, "Oh boy, three thousand miles from home and I've got to blow my stack. That's what is happening." I thought that I would have a stroke or possibly go crazy. Because I didn't think that it would just stop on its own.

But I was aware at the peak of this pain of going out the hotel window. I was aware of actually seeing people who were on the street at the time, except that I was above them. This was in daylight, incidentally, it wasn't at night. My window looked out toward the Cascade Range of snowcapped mountains. And I watched this just as if I were in an airplane, passing underneath me.

And then there was sort of a time flipover, in which I was no longer over the Cascade Range,--now I could see all of humanity. I knew that all I had to do was look wherever I wanted, and I could see any man who ever lived or would live. There was no such thing as time. These people were all living now,--all I had to do was to check them out, if I wished.

So I looked and I saw myself. I could see myself struggling down there,--Richard Rose,--I could see his whole life pattern. I'm still in a sort of astral projection form, I'm still much attached to the body, to these people, and I feel a tremendous amount of grief. A tremendous amount of sadness for this seemingly senseless struggle.

Because when this happens you've got in the back of your head the question of why people have to struggle, and if there is a Creator who could just say, "You're all smart,--all I have to do is to make you smart,--why should I make you stupid?" So why is all this travail going on?

Then I realized that I was both humanity and my individual self, and that I was everything. And in an instant I realized that humanity didn't exist and that I didn't exist. But that I did exist in nothingness and everythingness, infinitely. And how long this lasted I had no way of checking, because I was alone and when I came back it was rather traumatic. And I stayed that way for several days, because it is as difficult to come back as it is to go into it.

This experience is almost synonymous with the one that Paul Wood had, the fellow we were talking about earlier,--in relation to the Lord's Prayer formula.

=== Spiritual Experiences ===

So never get the idea that a spiritual experience of this sort is pleasant or blissful. Now that doesn't mean that all spiritual experiences are not blissful. People often think that all spiritual experiences are the same,--this isn't true.

Ramana Maharshi was a teacher whom Paul Brunton supposedly discovered in India some years ago. And his book The Spiritual Teachings of Ramana Maharshi was the first one that I saw that describes the differences in what are called spiritual exaltations.

He describes the differences between what we call cosmic consciousness (Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi) and enlightenment (Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi.) He describes them very accurately in plain and simple terms.

He said that Kevala Samadhi is a situation in which the mind is like a bucket attached to the end of a rope and lying in the bottom of a well. The mind is dropped down in meditation but at any time it can pull itself back out. It is no great travail to go down into the bottom of the well, rest awhile, and it's no great travail to come back up. This is the cosmic consciousness experience.

Whereas Sahaja Samadhi, the enlightenment experience, is equivalent to a river flowing into the ocean. And once it flows there we don't recognize the river, it disappears. Its identity is lost, its individuality is lost, and it never returns. This is the basic difference.

Now there are other "exaltations," and this is where the confusion comes in,--the confusion is in Zen as well. Every word that describes spiritual experience is not synonymous with the others that describe spiritual experiences. We have words like nirvana, moksha, samadhi, and satori, which are not all the same, if you go by the descriptions of the experience in the different accounts.

Satori is an experience anterior to, prior to cosmic consciousness, not beyond it or superior to it. Because it is described as a relative experience. Cosmic consciousness is a relative experience,--enlightenment is an absolute experience.

There is a book Cosmic Consciousness by Richard Bucke which gives several accounts: Christ, St. Paul, Buddha, St. John of the Cross, Pascal, Mohammed. They all have a common denominator in that the person experienced ecstasy, witnessed color, light, beauty, and found peace within his heart. This is a relative experience.

The enlightenment experience is the experience of nothingness and everythingness,--and it is said this way because neither of them is the experience. It is paradoxical or untrue to call it just nothingness, because it's not oblivion. But it is the knowledge, or rather the being, or entry into nothingness and everythingness. And that is the total experience.

Now we go back and we hear a person talking about salvation. He says, "I have reached the paramount experience. I'm saved." And I realized a long time ago that the person describing this experience did not have the same thing as cosmic consciousness.

Or you pick up a book on Zen and you read about satori, which is the "wow" experience. A fellow says, I went to such-and-such ashram, I stayed there so many months or years, and one day,--Wow, I knew it! And I had a beer with the head master and we went away laughing together,--we got it." This is not enlightenment. Because if this man had enlightenment they would have carried him out on a stretcher,--it's that drastic. You don't die and then laugh and say "Wow!" Death is more final than that.

=== Progressive Stages ===

Gurdjieff talks about man numbers one, two, three and four. Man number one is instinctive, number two is emotional, number three is intellectual, and man number four is philosophic. These are the steps that we take in the natural evolution of a person, regardless of whether the person is spiritual or not.

When we start off we just function instinctively,--we eat, we reproduce, we hunt a place to hide when it's raining,--that sort of thing. And if we can get more of the same, we get more of the same. More eating, more reproducing, more pleasure, more luxury, leisure, security.

But a time comes when a person feels that this is inadequate, that he has a greater meaning than say, just being an animal. And he then attaches himself to a personal figure,--this is one of the symptoms. This personal figure may be Jesus Christ, it may be a guru, it may be some spiritual teacher who is dead. But it's always a personal figure, a male god,--that is, a man-god or a human god type.

And by intense concentration on this he forgets himself, he loses himself in this other person. And he reaches a rapture or an exaltation, as the psychologists call it. And this has distinguishable characteristics: he loses himself, he is less instinctive, he can forget his vices, he can be free of them in fact, by focusing upon this other being.

But again, sometimes a person gets disgusted with this type of experience. After so many years go by he may say, "Hey,--that was my emotion. I projected perhaps, onto another person. Does that person really exist, outside of a book?"

So he goes about applying his intellect to this. Maybe he gets into translating the Bible to find out if this fellow did exist. Then he gets into the Kabbalah and starts into the shaking of the head with numerological symbols, or into mathematics, which is pretty much the same as the Kabbalah; math may be the substitution of symbols for concepts.

After this is done for so long the mind awakens to the meaning for mathematics,--like a light bulb turning on. There is a realization of exactly what is meant by "x plus y equals z." And you say, "Wow! Now I know." The whole algebraic system,--the whole thing,--pops. Now if you have had this experience you will know what satori is like,--but instead of algebraic symbols you'll have artificial symbols of philosophy or some esoteric system. And this experience in turn is followed by a transition.

These transitions or elations are let's say the sharps or flats between the high points of the instinctive, emotional, and intellectual man. You go through an exaltation to take a rest, and you relax or stay awhile in each one of these.

And the next step, of course, is when you realize that your intellect is a vanity. You know that you can work these math problems fast, you're good at remembering these things, you can play chess and beat so many other people, because you've got a good mathematical head. But then you realize that this is all a vanity trip and that you don't know anything yet. That it didn't bring you the real realization about what your thoughts are and what your interior self is.

I say that there are three things that have to be answered: Whom you were before you were born, whom you are after death, and what your relation is to the Ultimate.

And any movement that does not answer all three of them doesn't answer any of them. You'll notice in some of the movements that they will tell you what is going to happen to you, but they never say where you came from. Some of them will say that you just spontaneously arrived here. Some will tell you where you came from, but they have no knowledge of your relation to the Ultimate,--provable, that is. They may give you a concept structure, but they don't give you something that is really substantial and answers to common sense.

So we get back to the idea of saying, "Hey, this intellect thing isn't going to take me anyplace. I've got to get into a general appraisal of all the data that I can pick up." This is philosophy,--going out and bringing all sorts of systems of thinking together and trying to find something just maybe by luck, by throwing a whole lot of garbage into the computer, a mass of erudite writings.

And as a result of this, strangely enough, we even lose the philosophic ego,--if we're able to do this. This is where cosmic consciousness (Kevala Samadhi) comes in,--this is where we experience ecstasy. But ecstasy is not enlightenment,--it is or may be one of the landmarks toward enlightenment.

Question: Have you read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?

Rose: No,--I have only heard about it. This is what we're beset with today,--I prefer not to get into Zen writings at all. I don't know what the book is about. It's possible that his concentration of motorcycle maintenance may have been his koan, if he focused his head on it.

Question: You said that enlightenment was dying?

Rose: Yes.

Question: It doesn't seem that this would be a very pleasant experience.

Rose: I didn't say that it would be.

Question: One wonders why people would look for it.

Rose: Yes. Maybe I shouldn't tell you,--maybe I should let you think that it's nice. Again, you're at a disadvantage when you hear this. The only advantage of telling you this, is that when it happens you won't jump out the window. You'll say, "I expected that it might be rough." That's all.

Question: Can't you see it as a rebirth instead of dying? You can't see things freshly if you don't let go of your previous conceptions.

Rose: Why do you have to see things freshly?

Question: Seeing things for what they are without....(trails off)

Rose: Hanging onto the fence, do you mean? Well, you have to let go of what you think things are. Now as far as the idea that there's no birth unless there is dying,--it's possible that "you" may not experience birth. That the only reason why people do experience birth is that they never realized that they could stay dead. They maybe feel compelled to play the game, to go back on the stage,--this is one of the concepts.

The Buddhistic concept of reincarnation was claimed by some to be a misinterpretation,--that Buddha was supposed to have meant reoccurrence. That the same life reoccurred. He said, "When you light the candle again, is it the same flame, or is it another flame?" Some people think that it's another candle,--no. It's the same candle, you just witness the same drama over and over and over.

Question: Would you say that you witnessed Nirvana at the time of your experience? If so, what about your worldly attachment then? You mentioned that you were about to get married.

Rose: Well, I didn't marry then. The only thing that I did was to get out of town and go back to where it was a little safer. You know, closer to the cemetery in case something happened. But I had no more ideas about getting married for awhile. I did get married the next year to somebody entirely different.

The idea about Nirvana now,--I presume that what is written about Buddha's experience was written not by Buddha but by somebody else, the same as with the experiences of Christ. But I understand that his "Nirvanam" was identical with the word enlightenment (Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi.) If you take the word Nirvana in that sense it's not synonymous with satori.

Question: Were you able to function after having this experience?

Rose: For about a week very poorly. Very poorly. You're pretty helpless for quite awhile. And of course the main thing is that there's no reason to function, and the difficulty is in getting yourself to either function or commit suicide. This seems to be the alternative. That either one is equally valid, and it seems like quite a burden to go through the motions.

I came back a little closer to home, to Cleveland for awhile. I didn't go all the way back to West Virginia. And what I experienced then was that I began to see people more as robots,--they were almost transparent. They weren't actually solid, and they stayed that way for quite awhile.

Not only that but I could see their motivations,--their motivations seemed to be very transparent. And everything became so absurd.

I would get shocked. I remember I came out of the hotel in Cleveland and the sidewalks were full of people,--marching. They had no thoughts, their faces were almost blank. And I thought, "Oh boy, some terrible thing has happened. They're all in a state of shock." And I went up to them,--they didn't seem to be saying much,--and I said, "What happened?"

And one of them said, "What do you mean, 'What happened?'" I said, "Where are you going?" And he said, "To the ball game." They were going down to the stadium. All I picked up was that these people had no great purpose in life. They were just going as zombies, speechless. If they were talking, if they were even saying anything, it wasn't apparent to me.

So this was the transition. Trying to get back into this thing of saying, "Oh yes, I'm in rapport with your little head game." This is basically what social rapport is. We have to get out there and try to feel this fellow's personality, so to speak, and get along with it.

=== Symptoms & Modern Psychology ===

Question: So one might say you were quite mad?

Rose: You might say that, yes. Oh,--according to definitions, I would have hated for a modern psychologist to have gotten a hold of me.

We have a friend right now, from Brown University, who was just committed to Butler. He's going through a spiritual experience,--there's absolutely nothing wrong with him. But he was starting to weep and to break down, and that's where he ended up. I went down and talked to him and I could stop him, I stopped him two or three times. But I couldn't stay there day and night. The thing is, he should go through the experience and get it over with. But the psychiatrist was pumping him full of dope. So it was unfortunate that he had to stagger into there.

Question: There is a fear there with me. Occasionally I feel as if I am on the verge of breaking into that, and I pull back.

Rose: Right. That's the reason why I felt that I should talk about it. Because some of you people may at some time or another go into an experience of this sort.

I said to the boy when I first went in, "What were the symptoms?" And he said, "I thought I was dying." And I said, "Good,--this is one of the signs, there's nothing wrong with you. Because if you were dying the doctors would have found it with stethoscope, blood pressure gauge, and so forth. So it's manifest that you're not dying, or you would be dead by this time." That this is a psychic experience, not a physical death.

Question: What about a person going through this who might find himself committed?

Rose: There's no answer. You just hope that these buzzards don't do too much to you, that's all.

A.T.: Well, that's the purpose of having a group. People who can isolate you.

Rose: That's right. That's what I tried to do with this fellow. I went down and talked with the therapist,--and I found the therapist giving me the once-over.

I said, "Hey,--don't pump this guy full of dope. He's got to go through this either now or later. If you think that he's going to hurt somebody, put him in a room where he can't. But I guarantee you he'll not hurt anybody."

There is a tendency for sociologists to think that they are going to be the future planners for the robot enterprise. That the government will somehow fund them and put them in charge of the behavioral patterns in the country, so that people won't cause any ripples. When you start rioting in the streets you'll be herded into someplace, given a shot in the posterior, and come out loving humanity. This kind of idea.

And that's what this doctor told me at the hospital two nights ago. He said, "We have a drug for almost every thought." That if they find that your thoughts travel in a certain direction, "We have a drug that will turn you around."

"This guy shows paranoid inclinations, so give him so many milligrams of such-and-such a drug. Well, what do you know? Now he doesn't act like a paranoid, he acts like a schizophrenic. So we give him a counter-shot for that and he'll be back to work, back to paying taxes, and the government will give that money to fund me and my institution."

Question: So does your philosophy work together with psychology?

Rose: Yes. I think that Zen is the greatest psychoanalytic system in the world,--it goes directly inside. But what modern psychology and psychiatry are doing is dealing with symptoms, and a conjured up set of symptoms at that. It used to be ink blots...

Question: Well, that's a tangible thing. That's what they're trying to work with.

Rose: Right, that's my criticism. They should enter the mind directly. If you want to be a psychologist you should learn to enter a person's mind and know what he's thinking. And you'll know why he is thinking it. Walk one mile in his moccasins and you won't have any trouble diagnosing his case.

First of all, I don't believe that all these things which are called insanity are insanity; and I think that a lot of the writers are coming into this broader scope. I believe that insanity should be defined as breakdown of brain tissue or something else in the body, that would cause erratic reactions or behavior.

Now there is something else. A person can become possessed,--and don't think that this is fiction. These are real cases. You can become possessed, and modern psychology refuses to accept it. They may use the word schizophrenia for possession. And consequently any cure or therapy is going to be in the wrong direction.

Instead of getting rid of this double occupant they go about telling this fellow that he is messed-up. Attacking him for it, or maybe giving him a drug that knocks him out so completely that this other thing doesn't manifest. They used to have a cure in Bedlam a century or so ago,--they beat the hell out of the patients. Harass the body enough and things will leave; not even a devil would stay inside them. Turn the water hose on them ,--this was also done.

=== Freud and Followers ===

Question: What do you think of Sigmund Freud?

Rose: Well, I don't criticize Freud entirely. The only thing I criticize him for was that he was more intent upon packaging. The more I read about Freud the more I realized that what he was doing was running around Europe trying to set up a whole string of chain-store institutes or places for therapy.

And he was surrounding himself with a group of less able men than himself. People who were glad to latch onto the bandwagon if it showed signs of making money.

But as for his basic concepts, I think that each one of these people has discovered something that is worth listening to. The sexual concept of Freud's had not come up before, and it was good to look at things from that viewpoint for a change,--that some of our problems could be caused by sex.

Sometimes most of our motivation is sex. If you want to analyze yourself and your motivations today you will come around to sex: Why do you want a job? Why do you want an education? Male or female now. The guy wants an education, he goes to college, for what? A better job? Because if he doesn't get a better job he is not going to be able to reproduce in the same fashion,--he may have to settle for quite a bit less. Consequently he is going out to get a job by which he can support the best woman he can find.

The girl goes to college, sometimes, to find one of these able-bodied people who can support her. I'm not saying that this is always the case but nevertheless, we are basically motivated by sex in a lot of our directions. I don't say that we are motivated by sex in our spiritual directions or philosophic directions, but in the mundane directions the motivations are mostly sexual.

Then we get to the will to power. Nietzsche was pretty much going along these lines, and the idea of the will to power in some of the psychologists who followed him went more or less in the same direction.

And then Victor Frankl came up with the idea of the will to meaning. I was really amazed when I first saw his book. I thought, "Here is a psychiatrist for a change who is on the path." That basically this is what everybody wants to know who they are.

Some of them get tired, that's all. The majority are mostly sunk into something like, "Oh, the factors are too great, the studies are too much for me to encompass in a lifetime. I'm going to let the preacher do it; I'll take his word for it. I'm just too tired to go through all this study, this thinking, or whatever it is that has to be done."

But everybody wants to know who they are. Everybody realizes that the game is fixed and that they should find out what the puzzle is. But they don't do it.

Frankl discovered this,--I thought, when I read the first few pages of his book. But after I got into the book I found out that what he was talking about was, "Assume a meaning; if you don't have one, pretend you have one. Go grab a meaning,--survive." In other words, let your wife die in the concentration camp, but hang onto that manuscript until you get out. That was his meaning for living.

Question: This sounds like Meister Eckhardt,--he wrote a poem about being both God and a creature. Is it possible to be in a place where you can see the Absolute and yet still hang onto this world?

Rose: I'm stuck here for awhile,--don't have much choice. Maybe I do.

Question: What about the other side of the coin, seeing the Absolute?

Rose: I'm still a little unsure about what you are driving at, but let me try to anticipate it, or feel what you're saying:

The question that, possibly the person who has seen the Absolute would be concerned or give a damn about whether Freud was packaging his stuff, or would be concerned with the behavior of people, whether they got along or didn't, or whether they understood or didn't.

Again, I definitely, sincerely do not worry too much about what goes on. But if I am talking to people who are about to embark on a spiritual path,--then I say, "Hey, there are certain things in this rat race that you want to watch out for."

If you are going to read books on psychology, try to learn how to sort with your intuition, to be able to tell what these people are up to. Did they make a tremendous discovery that can help you, that you can hang onto as you go down your spiritual path? Or are they playing some head game just to package and sell books or some therapy system? This is what is important.

And all of this in my estimation is important. In other words, this is. What you see here in these various stage acts, this act of mankind on the stage, is part of the Absolute. So there is no dichotomy.

=== The Relative Dimension ===

Question: Why are we caught up in this relative world? Is there any value to it?

Rose: This is the catch. When I was about twenty-one years of age I tried to write a poem about this. The theme was, "Why am I on this path?" This too is implanted. It had to be. I am not an individual who says suddenly, "I'm going to get rid of these hangups and barnacles and be a free individual." I had to be almost programmed to look for the truth.

Now what does this mean? In esoteric or spiritual writings you hear words like, "We have lost our way from the father." That each particle wants to go back to the Father. This is what I meant when I said that everybody is looking for the truth.

I don't like to say it in such a religious sounding way that would have a listener think, "Well, this is just a belief, this is the foundation that you have." But this is the feeling that you get when you go back there,--that you went back to the Father. That you had lost your way, so to speak, because your consciousness had become fascinated.

I was talking earlier today about one of my grandchildren, a baby. The baby isn't totally in this dimension, at this age. It will only come into this dimension for a time. And I realized that what you have to do to keep a baby in this dimension is to keep its attention. You neglect that baby and it will die. This applies to some animals also. It is said that if you let a monkey lay and don't give him something that is like a mother or a friend, he will close in on himself and die. He just retreats into the other dimension.

So what do we do with our babies? We make crazy noises at them, we talk baby talk to them, and try to attract that baby's attention. We sing songs to it and keep dangling toys in front of it. Finally the baby starts watching what is in front of it and becomes enchanted by it. The next thing you know he is exploring the whole room, and pretty soon he is hooked.

Question: What are your views on reincarnation?

Rose: First of all, if I knew for sure that you were going to reincarnate I wouldn't tell you. Because I believe that it becomes a form of procrastination.

There may be cases where people have realized that they have lived before, or that they have been on the stage before, something of this sort. But this idea of reincarnation can be used for several purposes. It can be used by the powers of that particular area to tell the person, "Don't feel bad because I'm stealing all your money,--the next time around you will be in charge and you will be stealing my money." Or, "The reason that you are here is that you stole my money last time." This is one rationalization connected with the theory of reincarnation.

And the other rationalization is of course, "You've got all the time in the world. This cosmos turns slowly,--and in time you'll get there."

Question: You talked about the different levels of our being. Are these like stages of development?

Rose: Yes. It seems pretty hard to make a jump, although there seem to be people who have possibly been born with a certain faculty that other people were not born with,--they seem to jump a bit faster.

The saying is that these people seem to be "old souls" when they are born. So we do see such cases where people move rather rapidly, in comparison to others for whom it took years or possibly a lifetime to break through. Sometimes it happens after a long life of spiritual work, and you will notice it happening to them on their deathbeds.

Question: Do you see these states of being as able to coexist at the same time and be constant?

Rose: They do. For example, if you reach the Salvationist experience you never completely lose it. And you don't have to lose it as you go along. You don't deny it, even if you find that it isn't the final experience.

In other words, when a person has a Salvationist experience, that to him is the maximum experience and everybody else is crazy. Only when they transcend the instinctive level can they still be an instinctive person, recognizing the values of instinctive living, the energy that comes from instinctive living, and be now, on an emotional level. And then,--still be an intellectual person, recognizing that it is a vanity while becoming a philosophic person, and still go on from there.

Part of the system that I advise in The Albigen Papers is that we make milk from thorns. These very things which are negative can be turned, the energy taken from them, and this energy used in progression,--in finding goals faster.

Question: When you reach the point where the physical world and time become unreal in a way, when practical life loses its value and doesn't matter,--it can become pretty difficult.

Rose: I know. I know that. The only thing I can say is to try to keep yourself chemically balanced, that's all. You can handle it, if you don't become unbalanced chemically.

=== God, Buddhism, Christianity ===

Question: Do you believe that there is a God?

Rose: I don't believe that the God that people talk about exists.

Question: Where does Jesus Christ fit in? Was he somebody who attained enlightenment?

Rose: Well, I don't really know that. I believe that there were people who lived on Earth who had a great potential. And I think that sometimes their writings are misread. And I don't pretend to know what they knew.

Buddha wrote nothing. Christ wrote nothing,--but we find say three gospels written almost identically at a time when printing was expensive. And I'm somewhat dubious about this idea of wasting the time in the writing of three almost identical gospels.

And yet, this book gives us the formula. As I said, you will find formulas in sacred writings. In my particular case I got disgusted with the whole Christian movement for awhile, and ignored the formulas therein,--and then came back and rediscovered them. For instance "the way, the truth, and the life," is a good biblical formula for any seeker.

The paths to the truth are three-fold in both Buddhism and Christianity. The formula is the way, the truth, and the life. You don't just work on one thing,--you have to work on three levels at once. In Buddhism it's the Buddha, the dharma, and the sangha. Both formulas are pretty much synonymous,- dharma means way, and the sangha is the brotherhood.

You have to become the truth, you must apply the discipline, and you must be associated with a brotherhood,--that's the life in the Christian context. The truth, of course, is the central thing. Christ said, "I am the truth." He also said, "I am the way and the life."

This implies that he too became. He had to become, he didn't learn. He may have studied with somebody, such as the Essenes, but basically his admonition was to become. He didn't say, "I learned the truth," he said, "I am the truth." This was the distinction.

Now exactly whether he did say this or not, whether or not somebody just wrote it down, I don't know. That "somebody" might have said, "Well, we liked that fellow, he was in our club, let's make him a Messiah." This argument had been presented. And I don't like to rule on it.

I say to find out for yourself, basically. Or to try to find somebody who is living and has gone through some experience, and talk to them. It may do you more good than trying to live according to the code of someone whom somebody else has written about.

Question: I take it that you don't believe in God.

Rose: That's not correct. Don't get me wrong,--I believe that the enlightenment experience is the same as the God experience. But I like to qualify this because the term God is generally used with certain implications.

Question: God is thought of as being a mind, a perfect divine mind.

Rose: Well, yes,--but there is a concept that reaches beyond that. There is an intermediary state that you enter after death, and that is mind, the mind dimension. Mary Baker Eddy discovered that this existed, possibly by studying some Eastern philosophy, and she calls it Universal Mind.

In other words, in your individual mind you have your own private thoughts, but nevertheless your mind functions at its best when it is in contact with the mind dimension. Some sects in India call this the Buddhic mind. Paul Brunton calls it the Overself, of which we are all a part,--like the Brahman, so to speak.

The basic concept of the Atman and the Brahman would be closest, if you're talking about the God concept. The Atman being the individual ray that emanates from the central light that is the Brahman. The ray of light, that plays upon the void, seems to be an individual and identifies itself with a certain name. But it is really attached at the other end to the Brahman, the Absolute.

So this is an entirely different concept of God than the guy with the big whiskers that sits up there and says, "Hey, you're getting out of line down there. You broke a rule."

Question: Are you saying that God is Universal Mind?

Rose: No. I don't say that God is even Universal Mind. I think that the Absolute is a stage beyond mind. The mind is a dimension.

And you discover that the mind is a dimension by losing the mundane mind. The individual mind, the mundane mind, gives way and you realize,--that you don't have an individual mind,--that it is mostly just contact with mind-stuff, so to speak.

=== Other Systems ===

Question: Is this material included in your book?

Rose: There are other books that give this out about as plainly as it can be given. When I wrote The Albigen Papers I tried to avoid repeating as much as possible, but I listed certain books which I consider to be helpful or accurate. And the group tries to make these books available, if they're hard to find.

Ramaha Maharshi's book gives very accurate descriptions, although this one is not listed in my book. I do mention Conquest of Illusion by J.J. Van der Leeuw,--you can get this one through us or through Theosophical bookstores, if not in the general bookstores. Paul Brunton's books are very good, such as The Wisdom of the Overself and Hidden Teaching Beyond Yoga.

Question: What is your opinion of Krishnamurti?

Rose: Well, I really can't say definitely. Incidentally, this book by Van der Leeuw was dedicated to Krishnamurti. I have never met Krishnamurti, never heard him talk, but I have watched his life over the years,--he's a bit older than I.

It's very possible that Krishnamurti is an enlightened man. Although I wonder sometimes at some of the material in his books and lectures. I have read some of these, and wondered why he gets into such things as remaking society, or making society a better place to live. I have no desire to play with the factors, the numberless factors, that go into making society any different. I have seen men like Stalin and Hitler try, and if those fellows couldn't do it there's no sense in my trying, there's no sense in Krishnamurti trying. In other words, this world is like a Juggernaut that is rolling along, and there's no sense in throwing yourself under the wheels.

But Krishnamurti has a life history of a man who wanted to find the truth. You know his history, of course. He was Annie Besant's disciple, so to speak, and they tried to make a messiah out of him. The Theosophists or Blavatsky or somebody had predicted that a reincarnation of Christ was due, one of the Masters was going to reappear, and they had Krishnamurti groomed to be this new messiah. They had this all built up, and they were going to put him on the scene at the right time.

But Krishnamurti rebelled and spilled the can of beans. He said he didn't intend to do anything of the sort. In other words, he wanted to find the truth himself. He could lecture, but he was not going to sell any merchandise.

Then he disappeared from the scene and nothing much heard about him for ten or fifteen years. And it was in that period of time I think, that he was going through the trauma that was necessary to bring his mind into realization.

When he emerged his lectures had a different tone. Before, they were mostly devotional little things like At the Feet of the Master. But now he was coming out and saying, "I see a new world" (when he was looking out the window of a train.) And, "You should see a new world."

Question: If this was a spiritual experience that you had, why did it include marriage as a consequence?

Rose: I didn't get married as a consequence of that experience. I got married as a consequence of a body, which I inherited from my parents, that had a prostate gland in it.

Question: Well isn't sexuality an attachment? How did you resolve the idea of marriage after your experience?

Rose: I worded my answer to you in a decided manner. I have never been attached, even before the experience. The idea of getting married was not because of sexual attachment. The idea was just help.

It's like with anything else,--it may be a lot of fun to eat food, but you can eat without having the fun. And I'm not saying that you should deny the fun if it's there. The idea is that you should not quit eating just to relinquish the ego for eating, let's say, or giving up the desire for food to such an extent that you would starve to death.

There is a difference. You should realize that there is such a thing as detachment. You can go through a garden and admire the flowers, but you don't have to pull them up by the roots. This is the mark. You don't have to cram everything into yourself physically and say, "That is mine,--I want that." But also you do not have to say, "I'm going to castrate myself." If you castrate yourself you might lose some of the energy that is needed to arrive at something, or to raise your kundalini.

Question: My understanding is that any sensual pleasure feeds an addiction, and may keep you from spirituality.

Rose: Sure, absolutely. I had no addiction for anything and never did have.

Question: Well how can you indulge in a sensual pleasure...!?

Rose: Hey,--you're putting a color on it that isn't there. How do you know that I indulge in a sensual pleasure? How do know I don't just indulge in a physical act? Why do you use these terms when you don't know how I indulge?

And I'm not going to tell you any more because you might start writing books about me. (laughter)

Question: What percentage of people ever attain the enlightenment experience?

Rose: Bucke says one in a million.

Question: I was also wondering where people like Einstein and others fit in.

Rose: Well,--I don't know. Some of these people may have individual lives, but generally if you become too prominent a public figure, with too much attention placed on you, it's not too good. To have the obligations of a politician, a scientist, or something of that sort, and become occupied with such is detrimental to spiritual ideas and work.

One of the greatest detriments to spiritual work sometimes can be to have an ability as a scientist, working in a research lab or something, and to be using your head all day. When you go home after work and try to meditate you will be wanting to go out and chop wood or play golf to get some exercise. Your work pretty much takes all the quantum energy that has been accumulated.

The same in any business. If you get into a business and it takes up all your energy, you are not going to be able to do the proper thinking and inward looking, so to speak. So it is difficult to find a niche in life in which you can live and get philosophic things done.

So I don't know about these people. I used to think when I was younger that every smart man knew about the ultimate search. A person like Einstein, "certainly must be enlightened." But as I gathered from the conversations of Einstein shortly his death, he didn't believe that there was anything that happened after death. His concept was just oblivion.

Question: He said that if he had to do it over again he would be a cobbler.

Rose: He started out as something like that didn't he? A clerk or something?

=== Transmission ===

Question: Weren't there a lot of enlightened Zen masters in China? Isn't transmission used in all the Zen schools?

Rose: Huang Po, I think it was, answered the same question "No." Somebody asked that out of the several monasteries in China, each of which had two or three thousand students of Zen, "You mean there's no large number of those students becoming enlightened?"

And he said, "There is no Zen without transmission, and there isn't a single man in China who can transmit." Imagine,--of all these thousands of people. So it is not something that you encounter very often.

But if you see it, if you're near it, you will know what is happening. It is done through direct rapport. Transmission is direct mind to mind.

There is a part of our system which I haven't mentioned too much tonight, and even if you attend the weekly group meetings it might be rather vague to you. When you first get into it you might think it looks somewhat like an encounter group. We believe in approaching the truth by a sort of challenging of each other's thoughts: "Why do you think along a certain way? Are you being honest with yourself in this or that?" This sort of thing.

But then we have another thing which we call rapport sessions, in which we are trying to develop the intuition, and to sort of get the head in a position where transmission can be effected; where direct mind-to-mind can be experienced. To where you can sit and look at another man and say, "You're thinking this .... "and be right. This comes about slowly but surely, and this is where your head is ready for transmission.

Question: So the transmission occurs only between the teacher and another person?

Rose: It can occur between any two people, the only difference is that you can only transmit what you have. So that one person may transmit say some great love secret, and another person may transmit an experience similar to satori or cosmic consciousness. But you can only transmit what is already in the experiential computer, so to speak.

Question: Do you experience this awareness of yourself now, or is it something that the person loses when he comes back?

Rose: Well, it dims and brightens, that's about the best way I can tell you. There are times when you are very much aware of your body. For instance, they say that the whole world is an illusion so pay no attention. But it's not an illusion when a truck hits you or breaks your leg. It's still an illusion, but it's very real. The illusion becomes a very real illusion.

So the person with the broken leg, whether he is enlightened or not, is going to be very much aware of the physical world, the play-act.

On the other hand, there will be times when his mind or awareness will drift back to the other experience. He will not go back into it completely,--you can't, without going through the death experience again,--but he will go back to the point where he remembers it very vividly.

Question: And this is between-ness?

Rose: No, no,--that's not between-ness. Between-ness is a methodicity. This is another one of the laws that I was referring to. There is a certain way that you are able to hold your head just on perfect balance, not being to the left or to the right. This is something different.

What I'm talking about now is that when you come back, you are never completely in the world and you're never completely in an enlightenment experience. When you are completely in either one, then you're in it, that's all.

But at times you'll be aware of this other experience, and at unpredictable moments too, incidentally.

Question: Are you saying that transmission is very important in attaining the peak experience?

Rose: Well, I would say that it is a validation that a person who pursues a solitary path doesn't have. I think that it will give you a zest to go all the way through and experience it for yourself.

Question: So your group is oriented to creating this?

Rose: Preparing. So that they will be able to use what I call a direct mind communication.

Question: Have you run into any ways in which the "groupness" of your group interferes?

Rose: You get group states of mind, sure. You're always battling a group state of mind.

States of mind are the big thing. This occupies one whole chapter in The Albigen Papers,--including the ability to pick up states of mind. Because as long as you are in a state of mind you will not have direct mind communication. It's like with an animal in heat,--you're not going to be aware, except of the object of your heat. This is an extreme example, but there are other states of mind that can strongly affect you. I know that when I was a kid I used to go into a picture show and come out like a Horatio Alger character,--I wanted to change the world. That was because I got into a state of mind.

But the true state of mind is neither this nor even the state of mind that rejects it. It is very difficult to keep and hold a true state of mind. We continually flop from one state of mind to another. But to hold a true state of mind is,--to have the experience, which is basically a true state of no-mind.

Question: Do you feel like your life had ended with the experience and now you're just trying to pass it on?

Rose: I think that this is the only excuse I've got. (laughter) I have often wondered. A lot of people say, "Well, what are you hanging around here for?" And I don't know why I'm hanging around here.

Question: Is it possible to achieve transmission in a group?

Rose: We have many times experienced more than one person in a group having a certain rapport. But I don't think that the transmission is attainable by more than a one-to-one. I have never heard of any cases of the experience being picked up by more than two people at once.

Because basically it calls for me, if I'm the one who is acting, to lock your head with mine. Now I'm not much capable of locking my head with multiple heads. In other words, you fasten yourself to the other person's mind, and move them with your head while you are so fastened.

Question: You say that your system has to do with preparing someone for this experience,--what is this preparation about?

Rose: Outside of what I have already told you, there are two things that are practiced. One is the arrival at a knowledge of let's say the mundane self, or personality,--the elimination of the discrepancies in the personality, false beliefs, and that sort of thing.

The second is the practice that aims at direct mind communication. There's nothing complicated about this,--we call it a confrontation. It's like an encounter, where people actually try to be honest. And then there's the rapport.

Now in a rapport exercise, of course, only certain people will have rapport with each other easily. Sometimes you can select groups of four or five people to experiment, and if they find out that they can have rapport you isolate these from the main body. And then the remainder will try to find four or five who can have rapport, and so on.

So other than these things there is not too much that you can set down. From there on it's an individual thing,--there is a lot of feeling as you go, so to speak. You will watch and then somebody will come to you and say, "Hey, I don't feel like I'm making any progress," and then you try to look into it.

I have heard this repeatedly. I remember a case of one fellow who had been in the group for a year. Right before he had come to our place he had tried to kill himself,--it was a combination of disease, drugs, and depression. He had saved up his money to go up and be amazed by one Janov,--you know, Primal Scream. He wanted to scream with Janov, and was saving up his dough for this. So the boys in the group tried to discourage him from going,--a month at a time: "Stick around and see if you don't quiet down while you're here."

He complained after about a year that he didn't feel that he was making progress. So I just said to him, "O.K., well,--ask some of the others." They were sitting around and they started telling him, "When you came here, here's what you were, here's what you were doing,--and now look."

He had to be reminded of it. Because nobody feels like there has been any change. Right now everybody feels as if they have been this way all their life, but they haven't. You are not the same person you were a week ago perhaps.

So in answer to your question, there are individual steps. And every person is different because everyone encounters different traumas and everyone reacts differently to those traumas.

=== Pleasure-seeking ===

Questions: Is pleasure-seeking harmful?

Rose: Your comprehension of it will change gradually from year to year,--to where you will later laugh at your present idea of pleasure.

I was pointing out a little analogy in regard to personality changes. The man who puts the cup of booze to his lips is not the same man who sets it down. You immediately develop another personality, and you're critical of the personality of a half-hour ago. You say, "That wasn't me, that was a fool. I'm the smart guy now." But after this person gets good and drunk and then comes out of it he says, "That was a fool. Now I've got to start to find my sanity again."

Question: If your experience can't be described in relative terms, what is the value of your description in the back of the book?

Rose: I think that people pick it up.

Question: I get feelings, but it's nothing at all in the words.

Rose: Well, I warned you of that in the book,--I said not to go by the words.

I could have left the poem out of the book, but I wanted to make sure that it got printed, so that if something had happened to me, it would have been available. I'll tell you something,--I use this. When someone approaches an experience I'll read this to them and they will know its meaning. The meaning of it comes through to them.

Question: How did this ("The Three Books of the Absolute") come to you,--did you have to sit down and think about it?

Rose: No, no. It was all written within an hour.

I didn't know any other way to communicate it. First of all, when I came back, I tried to talk to people about it and...

Question: How long did the experience last?

Rose: It seemed to me only three or four hours, I guess. I don't think that it was longer than that. Of course, I was unconscious as far as time was concerned. I was pretty far from home and I wasn't able to...it was a draining experience.

Question: Why would that be?

Rose: Well, it's hell,--it's hell going in and it's hell coming out. It is hell to die unexpectedly, and you think you are dying.

And of course when you come back then, you realize that you're perfectly healthy. And then you realize that you have to leave reality. And you have a choice now, either to sweat it out in the experience you had before, or to commit suicide.

And you think, "Well, this is what I wanted." I started out at this thing pretty seriously when I was about twenty-one years of age. I tell you, the reason why I do what I'm doing is that when I was in my twenties, about your age, I ran into so many phonies. So many guys who had something to sell or something to gain.

Sometimes it was money, sometimes it was sex. There were a lot of guys who were trying to trap young people sexually by saying, "Hey,--I've got the answer, listen to me."

And I would get infuriated. I would get to the point where I was ready to kill people to eliminate some of this. This is man's definition, his search for God,--and here are these creeps trying to...

Question: Prostitute it?

Rose: Right. So I pledged that if I ever found anything I would make it available,--without charge, if I were able. And of course, there is a limit to what you can do for people without charge. But I believe that with the people who are ready to experience this that it doesn't take too much. I believe a lot in destiny. For instance, there are people around here tonight,--I don't believe that this is an accident. Certain people were supposed to come here.

This area has a population of a million or half a million,--and how many people gravitate here on a certain evening? Of the people who gravitate here, how many stay because they want to look a little deeper? So I believe that if people have a desire, they will gravitate to some place where, if they're sincere and honest with themselves, they will be able to progress.

The thing is that first of all you think that this requires a terrible sacrifice,--but it doesn't. Life doesn't mean a thing anyway, if you don't know,--you're going to live like a goat and just vegetate, reproduce, and die,--that has no meaning. It is just undefined action.

But I made up my mind that I didn't care if I went crazy, if I lost my life in the process, made myself sick, or whatever happened. It was more important for me to find the truth,--if I found the truth,--or to kick the bucket trying, than to live without my being defined. And it was because I ran into all this flack that I decided that I would try to make available what I found.

Well, as soon as I had the experience I came back and ran into an old friend of mine,--we had been on the "path" together,--and he was rather overjoyed. I read "The Three Books of the Absolute" to him and he started weeping. But very few people who read it had that same reaction. Occasionally he and I would get a little group of people together. But these people were too busy making a nickel for Kroger's. They had games in life that they had to play and they couldn't get out of the house, except for once in a great while.

And I would get sort of despondent and say, "Well, maybe this is just my ego. Maybe I'm not supposed to be preaching this stuff. Maybe their time hasn't come, or my time hasn't come."

And I actually quit,--from the time I was 32 until I was 50. I got married, I raised a family, until my youngest kid was old enough to take care of himself.

Then the Theosophical Society sent word down from Pittsburgh,--they wanted to know if I would speak on Zen. So I went up and talked. Then a couple of the fellows here tonight, who were going to the University of Pittsburgh at the time, came to one of my talks and invited me to speak at the University.

The next thing you know a group formed. The book at that time was in an 8½ by 11 form which was stapled and bound with carpet tape. That's how I put it together the first time. I had printed a hundred copies, because I thought that this would be the most people I would run into.

The thing just seemed to grow by gravity or something. I ran into a lot of young people and amazingly they seemed to pick up what I was saying. Each step of the way I was amazed. So,--I had a 300 acre piece of ground in West Virginia and I said, "Well, we'll use that for an ashram." And some of these guys are still there. I found out that everything will happen, if you don't try to make it happen.

=== Women and Men ===

Question: Do you know of any women who have experienced enlightenment?

Rose: Yes.

Question: What is the ratio of women to men who have experienced it,--is it 50/50?

Rose: Well, I would say that in the written accounts there are more men than women by far.

Question: Why is that,--do you have an explanation?

Rose: Yes,--I can tell you why. You've got to prepare yourself that women are not equal to men.

Question: Oh,--I have to prepare myself for that?

Rose: Most people refuse to accept it.

Question: In what way,--are we inferior?

Rose: I didn't say that women are inferior. They're not equal,--they're not the same. The woman can pick it up much more quickly than the man. But their action is not consistent.

Question: Why is that?

Rose: Because women are programmed by nature to forget.

Question: Hormonally?

Rose: We are basically animals that are programmed in a certain way. Men are roosters and goats; women are hens and nanny-goats.

Question: Their processes are different?

Rose: Right. We criticize a woman if say her husband gets ground up and she doesn't weep. But she's got three children. Her computer is such that if she's got three children, two of them can be killed and she will survive to take care of the third one. A man might not. I have known men who dropped dead when they lost a child,--because they are programmed differently.

But women are programmed to forget, in order to keep going, to carry the species. If women are honest with themselves they will know much more about themselves. But this idea that they can do anything a man can do is just as foolish as saying that a man can get pregnant.

Question: Are you able to heal?

Rose: It has happened, although I don't try to heal. Somebody that I knew would have a headache and I would get the urge to take their headache away, and it worked.

Question: Why did you experience an LSD trip at the age of fifty, when you had experienced enlightenment at thirty?

Rose: I thought that it might be possible that the chemical would create the death experience, and that the enlightenment experience would be renewed. It did create the death experience, which is necessary to go through enlightenment, but it didn't produce the enlightenment. Just the physical part was there, but not the awareness.

Question: Do you know what you will experience when you die?

Rose: Yes.

Question: Do you know what will happen to your state of being,--will your consciousness continue?

Rose: Yes. If it did not, I wouldn't talk to you. If oblivion were what is waiting for you I would keep my mouth shut. It would be better for your peace of mind. It's better to have peace of mind if you're going no place. If I had discovered that oblivion was the answer, I wouldn't talk.

Question: There would be nothing to talk about.

Rose: Right. It would just make people turbulent for nothing. Getting back to this earlier question,--I want to explain something to you so that you don't misinterpret it. The female is able to pick this up very quickly, much more quickly than the man. It's like an intuition. A girl or a woman can come and hear me talk and they will know. They will know me.

Question: But the man will have to work at it?

Rose: Right. He may doubt,--he is supposed to. He may say, "I've got to analyze this a bit,--let's put the slide-rule to it." And this is proper.

The intuitional ability of a woman is part of her computer in that she has to make very quick decisions in protecting the young. They had to develop this sense. It's genetic. They had to be able to sense, better than the male is able. The survival of the race depended upon it.

But also, this unfortunate ability to forget makes them subject to more states of mind. I'm talking about a twenty-eight day cycle, that the man doesn't go through. He may go through a yearly cycle, a solar cycle.

=== end ===

End of lecture. Rest of tape is conversation.

Lots of good stuff. Try to recover it.

Main Page

2026-01-08T06:51:46Z

Dmadmin: change albigen.com to albigen.net

<div id="widthlimiter">

Quick link to Recordings page: https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php?title=Recordings

<p>Metadata repository: https://data.direct-mind.org/</p>

<h1>Direct-Mind.Org</h1>

Direct-Mind.Org is a tool for research into the works of Richard Rose and his system of self-knowledge known as the Albigen System. The website name comes from Mr Rose's term "Direct-Mind Science", which he outlines in some of his works, such as "The Direct-Mind Experience". (You can search the term using the box above.)

Due to copyright restrictions, use of this Wiki is closed to the general public, although you will be able to read most pages. The website can only be used for Research, Educational and Noncommercial purposes, in order to stay within "Fair Use" provisions of US copyright law. By using this website you agree to be bound by these restrictions. See here for details: https://library.columbia.edu/research-teaching/copyright/fair-use.html

A search on the web will exhibit a wealth of information on Richard Rose and his teaching.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rose_(mystic)

A partial collection of lectures in PDF format, and other historical information on Richard Rose is here:

https://selfdefinition.org/rose/

More information on the Albigen System and writings by Richard Rose is here:

https://albigen.net/

If you wish to participate in the research project, please send an email via the contact form at this link:

https://selfdefinition.org/contact/

The full list of known recordings is on the following page in this Wiki:

https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php?title=Recordings

A spreadsheet in a different format is here:

https://selfdefinition.org/rose/rose-audio-temp/recordings-source-list-in-process.htm

Thanks very much.

We do not track you. Verify here: https://themarkup.org/blacklight?url=www.direct-mind.org

Main Page

2026-01-08T06:50:07Z

Dmadmin: update link for fair use

<div id="widthlimiter">

Quick link to Recordings page: https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php?title=Recordings

<p>Metadata repository: https://data.direct-mind.org/</p>

<h1>Direct-Mind.Org</h1>

Direct-Mind.Org is a tool for research into the works of Richard Rose and his system of self-knowledge known as the Albigen System. The website name comes from Mr Rose's term "Direct-Mind Science", which he outlines in some of his works, such as "The Direct-Mind Experience". (You can search the term using the box above.)

Due to copyright restrictions, use of this Wiki is closed to the general public, although you will be able to read most pages. The website can only be used for Research, Educational and Noncommercial purposes, in order to stay within "Fair Use" provisions of US copyright law. By using this website you agree to be bound by these restrictions. See here for details: https://library.columbia.edu/research-teaching/copyright/fair-use.html

A search on the web will exhibit a wealth of information on Richard Rose and his teaching.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rose_(mystic)

A partial collection of lectures in PDF format, and other historical information on Richard Rose is here:

https://selfdefinition.org/rose/

More information on the Albigen System and writings by Richard Rose is here:

https://albigen.com/

If you wish to participate in the research project, please send an email via the contact form at this link:

https://selfdefinition.org/contact/

The full list of known recordings is on the following page in this Wiki:

https://www.direct-mind.org/index.php?title=Recordings

A spreadsheet in a different format is here:

https://selfdefinition.org/rose/rose-audio-temp/recordings-source-list-in-process.htm

Thanks very much.

We do not track you. Verify here: https://themarkup.org/blacklight?url=www.direct-mind.org

Recordings-Source-List

2026-01-04T20:58:18Z

Dmadmin: /* Update 2024 */ Add details link

{{Page header}}

[[Category: Tape Lists]]
== Update 2017 ==

To avoid using an i-frame, this page now just shows a link to the external spreadsheet:

https://selfdefinition.org/rose/rose-audio-temp/recordings-source-list-in-process.htm

== Update 2024 ==

Tape/mp3 collection inventory can be found here:

https://audio.direct-mind.org/file-lists/  (password required)

Details of all the collections are here:

https://audio.direct-mind.org/file-lists/details/

1993-1103-NCSU-Chapel-Hill-video

2026-01-04T20:20:53Z

Dmadmin: Paste Auto-AI 1st pass

{{Page header}}

[[Category:1990s]]
[[Category:Video]]
[[Category:DVD]]
[[Category:North Carolina]]
[[Category:Auto-AI]]
<div id="widthlimiter">

== Data Template ==


{{Recording Data
|record-date = November 3, 1993
|location = NC State University Chapel Hill, 11/03, not Raleigh which is 11/01
|number-tapes =
|source = Have video only, with ripped audio
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s = Ripped video gave 3 mp3 files. 57:17 + 58:41 + 7:03 = 122 minutes.
|total-time = 2 hours, 2 minutes
|transcription-status = Auto-AI at Rev.Com Nov 19, 2025. Pasted here Jan 4, 2026.
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf =
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks =
|audio-quality =
|who-is-present =
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

== To Do ==

== Notes ==
Video 1 -- 57:17 -- Intro by Eric Clark

Video 2 -- 58:41

Video 3 -- 7:03

=== Video collection in general ===
Have DVDs ripped to VOB and/or VHS ripped to MP4. Need to verify collection. Have on Terastation (backup server) and Dropbox. Plus the originals in a plastic box.

=== Email ===
See long email chain January 2012:

RE: RR videos on VHS tapes

Phil: I actually kept--and found--the old VHS tapes. ...

Then a long chain.

=== Email SH to PC ===

So on this one - RR-unc-chapel-hill-1993-1103 you're saying that your DVD was 1st generation from tape, and if you made a direct copy of that DVD to the copy you sent me - that probably wouldn't cause a loss in fidelity, if done by simple disk-copy. So what you sent me was probably the best we will have - and any improvement to the file you just downloaded would be up to me - if I can reduce my 5-step process to a 1-step process.

== Transcription ==

=== File video 1 ===
Time: 57:17

vid-1-00:06

Eric Clark: During tonight's talk, the Self-Knowledge Symposium is a student group designed to provide a form for the discussion of topics relevant to better understanding ourselves. We meet weekly on Thursdays in the South Gallery meeting room in the

Speaker 2

vid-1-00:19

Get started. Good evening. Once again, my name is Eric Clark. I'm with the Self-Knowledge Symposium.

Speaker 3

vid-1-00:27

I sponsored this event tonight. Bit about the Self-Knowledge Symposium.

Speaker 2

vid-1-00:35

Self-Knowledge Symposium is a student discussion group. We meet every week and we're interested in the question, who we are, where we come from, where we're going at all levels. We leave no stone unturned. We look at philosophy, religion to come and check us out. One final announcement before I introduce tonight's speaker, and that is next week. On Tuesday, we'll be hosting Mr. Kevin Powell, and he's giving a lecture entitled Desert Wisdom Practical Lessons from the Mystical Path of John Juan, which is a really excellent talk. And that's this Tuesday at seven 30, November the ninth in Howell 1 0 4 to your flyers if you got one. Should read Tuesday, not Wednesday. Okay. Tonight's speaker, Mr. Richard Rose, started his quest for spiritual answers a very early age. He started his earliest remembered memories, I should say were looking down if he was writing, many are called fewer chosen, many are called fewer chosen, and that was from very early age.

vid-1-01:55

Age 12, he decided to join a monastery and become a priest thinking that the men, there would be the ones closest to God who would have the answers he was looking for. After five years there, he decided that wasn't the answer. Moved on to the university, studied physics, chemistry, looking for answers for materialism. Frustrated, he moved on to esoteric studies, looking at meditation, yoga, other esoteric things, and still finding no answers. At the age of 30, he had an unexpected unplanned for spiritual experience, which you may be talking about later tonight. Since that time, Mr. Rose has driven to articulate his system of spiritual work, and he's written a number of profound books on this subject to help the spiritual seeker. A, the papers is one of them. The psychology is the observer is another, and he's an inspiration and an encouragement for people that work with him to put forth the effort and the struggle to find their own answers to the life's deepest and deepest mysteries. I'd like to, if you would all join me in welcoming Mr. Richard Rose.

Speaker 4

vid-1-03:49

Rose: How many of you were here the last time I was here? Oh, quite a few. Well, there's still some brave men left. It looks like I talked to her. I think it was last year. I'm not sure.

vid-1-04:27

I think the search for spiritual matters is a different than every man and a number of religions and organizations around over the country shows that difference. And so I don't, I'm not preaching a dogma. In fact, I hope I'm not preaching because I believe the preaching destroys the possibility for wisdom beyond the teaching, we limit ourselves to a code. Dennis, my first question I'd like to ask you is what does mankind really want? Or individually, what do you want? In other words, I presume that of the many things that you would like to have, there's one special request or drive for. So this is sometimes not even verbalized by people that don't realize that they got a particular singular type of, sometimes the chief desire is to learn about life after death. Sometimes the chief desire is to make money. And some people, of course, it's wisdom because wisdom may either both make money or teach you more about life after death and a person goes into business, you better be prepared for all eventualities. And we have this business of life, so people should be prepared to experience it and protect themselves during the experience. So

vid-1-06:52

I have some questions I want to pose with you. You don't have to answer 'em, but I'll give you something to think about. And I'd like to say possibly if I could capsule the gist of my talk gist would be information beyond mental abilities. I prefer to bear on this. It's a difficult subject because it surprises you. And a person that's looking for a spiritual goal goes in with one understanding and comes out with surprises and other understandings. And so it's phase to ask yourself some practical questions. And if when you start to answer 'em, you'll get an idea perhaps of your limitation, or you might get a visit from a source of wisdom.

vid-1-08:03

So where's the truth found? We all want the truth and it's very important when we raise our children or when we deal with our fellow man, and even more so when we're dealing with ourself. But so I take that in the beginning. Where is the truth? How do you know it when you encounter it? Is it in the words of saints in discoveries from searching for people in diverse stages of life? Perhaps we don't need to die to understand the abilities of the mind. In other words, you ask people, what are you doing with your life and what would you like to have happen at the moment of death? Are you going to assure that you're going to survive it? And we don't know if we know the mind, the very mind that's questioning these things. So it's good to look in the mirror when we're thinking, study ourselves first. Do we know the mind?

vid-1-09:32

I'm curious. I don't want any hands up, but I don't want to embarrass anybody, but I'm just pointing it out. I'm curious about the number of people who are majoring in psychology. I think psychology is always thought since I was a young man, the psychology would bear the knowledge that the mind had and you'd have more knowledge than your neighbor. You specialize in it. So psychology doesn't answer the problems of life after death. Psychology doesn't necessarily know what a man is thinking when he goes insane or when he's happy. So we have to get the purest type of psychological literature that we can get ahold of. And still, I wonder how much of the discoveries of that would be of any use to you.

vid-1-10:40

We do discover magical mental abilities, and I think these things help. Well, I'll give you an example. Like the oracle of Delphi. She had an unusual capacity for predicting things for the nation. And none of us know what type of alcohol she drank or dope she took or how she did it, but it seemed to work out. And so you have to know, and of course if you've got an authority, it's good to check the authority out to find what type of truths he'll tell or statements that he'll create because he doesn't really know. But I have run across in my traveling around and literature, and I found out that certain people and possibly certain animals are more conscious, more conscious set up in our brain than perhaps the humans. And you have to read a good bit. I run into these, oh, you'd run into a person that said, Hey, did you read this book? And they'd give you the kernel of it. And so I'd go read the book and I get the information out of it. One of these people was a fellow by the name of Joseph s from Michigan, 1877 to 1944 is when he lived. He wrote a book, small book.

vid-1-12:33

One of our members went up and he bought a half a dozen of 'em. I think we gave them away or lost them all, but I never forgot the story. That was that he was able to cause lightning. It sounds absurd, but he would count the three and point. And when he pointed lightning would strike in that direction. Why he did it, no one knows, except there was no reason for it. But he liked to do it because he could do it. He was capable of helping a lot of people. He didn't gamble himself, but he told people, figures on the stock exchange and they came true. But it became so, in other words, he was enjoying showing off and do a good bit. And he lost the gift. The gift losing the gift was a result of giving a man the figures on tomorrow's stock market. He had picked them out and he realized he was doing wrong and he shouldn't be using that to make money with. And he lost his ability for a year to the day. And of course a year later, he got his power back.

vid-1-14:03

I got a farm down in West Virginia and I ran into a lot of people that wanted to go out and meditate, but most of them are a good percentage of them went out, smoked dope. And I watched them a bit to see their actions surprised me, and I'd watch them. And I remember one fellow, I walked up to him and stood in front of him, concentrate on him and see what reaction I'd get. And he got nervous, started shaking, and he had a girlfriend sitting beside of him and she was holding his hand and she said, bring him out of it. I didn't know he was in anything, but I said, why? And she says, you just bring him out of it and be shaking from head to foot. So I brought him out of it and I asked him what was wrong. He says, oh, he says, I've seen a tremendous thing that educated me or impressed me. I said, what did you see? He says, I saw God. And he described it, well, you don't take anything seriously because this man taking dope, but he did see something. And so I start watching for people that claimed they would have visions, things that perhaps save money, save injury, things of that sort, what happened.

vid-1-15:59

The mind of man has not reached a true knowledge of the human mind. We don't know our own mind. And we're trying to get this information by maybe talking to somebody else that sees God, find out what mechanism is causing that. Of course, nobody knows what God looks like, so we got to take his word for it. He's telling you about the right person. The mind of man has not reached a true knowledge of the human mind. And we have people with psychological degrees. Perhaps some of you here have a degree in psychology. I maintain that they don't know the human mind and consequently should not have a degree in psychology until they know the human mind. And it's a laborious thing, but it's otherwise it becomes like a carnival huckster or as many doctors would do, pretend you were sick to get the fee and then shove you out the door.

vid-1-17:18

We don't know really individual capacities. We know that we can develop a personality and work miracles in business and charm people and be quite successful. But at the same token, don't. There's a tremendous lot that you discover by accident and we should try to remember some of them. And for instance, I was down in Texas one time and I was introduced to a seer. He belonged to a strange tribe of Indians. He wasn't Mexican. He was descendant of some of the people that were there before the Mexicans, and he had the ability to heal people. So I got on a bus and went clear down to Texas. A friend of mine was working down there and he'd run into him.

vid-1-18:35

The only thing that kind of mixed it up was he had been kicked in the head by a horse. Now that may have helped. It didn't seem to damage it, but after he got kicked, he began to get answers or see things. Well, he built a little shack down in the south. There's a road going out of San Antonio, straight down to nowhere, villages down there. But he put a S shanny up in the S shay. It was a little building, and Mexican people mostly just came, and that was their doctor. He treated everything. And I had asked different ones of them how he did it. And sometimes he put his hand on them, like fellow had a sprained knee or something. He'd put his hand on it. It seemed like immediately the pain left and he got the use of his limb, which sounds too good to believe.

vid-1-19:37

But anyhow, I thought I believed I heard enough about him and I figured he had some power, so I wanted to talk to him. Well, a fellow by the name of Frank Pena, Mexican fellow, heck of a nice guy, he said, I know him. And he says, I'll get out and talk to him, see if you'll talk to you. So we went to his house and was right before Christmas and they were celebrating a bit. And he come out and told me, he says, A bunch of these relatives are there and he's not taking any patience. Well, I wasn't a patient. And I said, I tell him that I'm not a patient. I just wanted what buddy's fine, what capacity is. So he went back in the house, he came back and Ms. Bullock came out and he walked right up to me and looked me in the face and he said, I can no see you anytime, meaning goodbye. I made a trip for nothing. But regardless, I still knew that the fella could perform things that seemed like miracles. He could heal people with know it medicine. And you'd go down past these places, there'd be six or eight cars in front of it, that little shandy wait there waiting their turn. Well, I discovered a lot of people had traces and weren't too impressed by it because it was common to them.

vid-1-21:17

And also I watched the message of certain people healing and I got into hypnosis and I found that you can hypnotize people without too much trouble. And under hypnosis, you give them a new perspective. You don't send them out in front of an automobile or something like that. You have to watch them until they're fully conscious if you make any suggestions. Because if you don't reverse the thing and say, now you're thinking the other way and safe for you to walk out by yourself. But I noticed that strange capacities, they developed strange capacities. And this got me to thinking the mind readers, people with the ability to read a mind. We got to know this. The psychologists should make a drive to find, to see if it's, first of all, if it's on that level. And the next thing is what causes it. And can we produce people who heal through that mental effort? See otherwise if they can't, can they discount it and prove it all as a farce?

vid-1-22:44

So you get this, I thought, well, these people are a little bit freakish. But then I had an opportunity one time to go to church and find some people in there that believed they could get healed. And I'd hear stories of they'd be walking in with a cane or crutches. Crutches, and they'd get inspired and they'd throw the crutches away and walk out. And they also heard stories that some of 'em had to go buy more crutches later on because it was only good for short periods of time. It wasn't permanent. I maintained, there's a bifocal mind. We have a bifocal mind. We focus on material things and we focus on facts and science and that kind of stuff. But also the mind can focus on things and cause them to change. I've seen, I've made some notes here because I forget them. I don't keep track of everybody. I don't keep in touch with 'em. In fact, I never went back down to Texas. But for instance, we have a thing called intuition.

vid-1-24:04

And intuition is an orderly analyzable process system. It works. We can develop an intuition and make a big thing out of it. The animals have it. If you point a gun at a dog, he has intuition enough to move and they can pick up your thoughts. They watch you. And if you're out of sorts while they retreat and shows that they don't have any words, but they have some capacity to act as a result of facial expressions or whatever human being, there are quite a few people that try to help people through that. And yet they've never been able to get into it. Scientifically what I'm talking about is we should see if we can't test this stuff scientifically.

vid-1-25:08

The other thing is that we've got a function with our intuition. We can't apply logic to everything. I maintain that if you're a searcher, you've got to depend on reading from your intuition. Not always, but it might be called upon to that intuition might be called an instantaneous computerization. And it seems to sort out in a flash and judge and act from all data of a person's long life history and more. In other words, some people through intuition can tell things inside your body. And I'm, I can give you some strange cases of this one. 'em involved by his wife and this character read the things he saw inside her body. And she went up to Pittsburgh and got an x-ray. And the X-ray confirmed she had granuloma. I don't know what granuloma is, but that was what came back with the x-ray, a string of not sore places, but little looked like beads on this x-ray.

vid-1-26:34

And of course later on she got a reading again and the fellow told her that he saw a black, this comes to their eyes as a black spot and a black spot below lower part of her body back to the doctor to an x-ray or boom was glued her backbone and it was dangerous for her to have children. Now you might think there's somewhere along, there's some fabrication. This woman happened to be my wife, so I knew that I watched it happen and the predictions were justified. Of course, the granuloma disappeared, but the result of the other was that she can't have no more children.

vid-1-27:40

Doctor offered to cut it out when there and operate. And he said it was dangerous. I took his word for it. He said, but he gives you trouble. Now I have a bucket full of instances in my experience of people seeing through the human body. And so I think, where do we get credit for this? What part of medicine says, Hey, it gets down to the worst thing. Why get somebody to look inside instead of taking an x-ray? No, that doesn't happen because the professionals have a big laugh at it. They laugh at the wave.

vid-1-28:35

So I think back there in historic times that people had the ability to do things. We tried to get scientific with 'em and we started experimenting with the roots and things and create medicine and watch the effects of the medicine and then bottle it and write prescriptions on it. Whereas before those days or when people were living out way beyond the reach of a good doctor say, they had to depend on digging up roots and getting a man and the tribe that would know how to help them. So from this, of course, I go back to psychology and I'm not, I had a course in psychology in college, but I noticed they didn't touch on the stuff that wasn't in books. And a lot of this stuff don't. There are books that's written in books, but you don't get to them. And I wanted to familiarize you with these.

vid-1-29:49

I don't know if I'll remember all of them, but one book is written by, what do you call it, A spiritualist in England. And he had the ability to float out a window with witnesses and back in another window, I'm trying to think of his name. I got his books. In fact, he wrote a book on this stuff, but he had enough witnesses and the people found out about it. He got invitations for heads of government all over Europe. In fact, the czar of Russia invited him over to spend a few days with him and I guess to talk to him. And czar alluded him down with jewels and stuff, just gesture saying, keep it up.

vid-1-30:56

Now what happened? What happened? Nobody knows, although there are a lot of instances today of levitation, but they're not validated. But this, as you said, 50 some people, when he'd put those expositions on, the people would find out about it and they'd come to see it. Our science books can't tell us how he avoided gravity, what was behind it. I think that I have encountered a means that they pulled it off. And it's just like the fellow that made it lightning. He felt that he had done it before and could do it. So he would count the three. And it happened. And of course he helped some people on the stock market and he lost his trick. So why did he lose his capability? It seems like there's a watchdog somewhere that says you don't do this out of greed.

vid-1-32:19

And I'm not saying that God or some saint is doing it, pushing the objects around, but I believe there's a mobility to the mind that we never take into account. And so when you get to reading these things, you read them and forget about 'em. But I would try to test them, see if I got, I feel so I tested it first with cards. In other words, I got in a poker game and won. See? See, they teamed up and everything to try to break the winning streak. And I would ask what I'm trying to, I'll explain to you what had happened. They'd deal cards out and you look at your hand and I had a potential for something. And so you throw the old cards away and ask for other cards. And I would ask out loud, A lot of guys don't want what's in their hand.

vid-1-33:31

And I'd say give a certain card and they turned it over and it'd be there. This happened repeatedly, repeatedly. I made me real happy. I didn't know where it's coming from, but I thought, boy, this is all right. They had been, I was naive. I couldn't play poker until they stole about it took one about a thousand bucks off of me. I got it back. And plus I felt bad, kind of bad, got to feeling bad about it. So I quit. I just stayed away from it. But it was worth trying. I think these things are worth trying by anybody. I think we've got a potential or there's something occurs under certain conditions. I don't think it occur under all conditions.

vid-1-34:21

I wasn't greedy, but I did get tired of them taking my money because they bluff and I believed them. I wasn't very good card player. Anyhow, I feel that there's a tremendous lot of this thing. So the next thing that the possibility that I encountered was that a person can cause events and they can see things at a distance. And all of them that I'm talking about were recorded. Somewhere in history. There was, I'm trying to think of the man's name, but he was standing on a street corner and he shouted, there was no fault with him, he shouted, he said, kill him. And he said, strike him again. And again, I can't remember. He read this stuff in, I should write the words down. But anyhow, what happened was the fellow said to him, what are you hollering about? He said, it's the emperor. They killed him. The emperor was miles away. But they checked it out. And at that moment, somebody had stabbed the emperor.

vid-1-35:47

Now this is history. That's not a concoction. It was, I don't know what nationality or what country that was, but it was a case of an intuition or something, seeing some things at a distance. Now this is not unnatural. There was a lady from England, she came over to New York and she's been married before she came over. I don't know what happened to her husband, but she started a paper, psychic paper, and she set up an office and took complaints from people and would look into the future or try to, and she became very famous. One of the things that made her famous was she saw the collision of when these lighter than air vehicles, they were a balloon there. What do they call 'em? Had a cabin on the bottom, the dibles. There were two dibles and they were army. One of 'em was at least the French army or the English army. But she saw it happening and cried out. She says Two of 'em just went down. She called the newspaper or the government headquarters, and they got on it and turned out that what she saw happen at exactly the same time. And so she puts this in a book.

vid-1-37:34

I had like to give you the name of it because it'd be nice, get ahold of it if that libraries have it. But anyhow, these things sort of confirm the potential of people. Now why are we talking about this? Because when we get into spiritual matters, we don't have material proof. And sometimes the spiritual matters that we get into are created for just to please the public and have a optimistic view on life and children won't be afraid of death and so on. So I think that if we can develop or at least have some method of finding the people that can do this, we'd be way ahead of the game and the people that are dragging us along. And you go to a doctor and the result is you get that doctor for the rest of your life. You can't shake him. You're always going to be sick or something's going to be wrong with you. So then the idea is we must know ourselves. That's important. Now, does that mean that God does something through people, through certain people? I can't comment on it. I'd say it'd be nice if we were, you had some sort of contact. I believe that it's a thing. And the reason I believe it is because if people experience it and they don't talk about God, they don't say that angels came and did it or helped him. It becomes definitely something that the human being can do themselves. I want to ask you a few questions. I was looking to see if I had any other incidents.

vid-1-40:08

I think surely some of you have had experience of relatives or have known some people that the party would know, the relative would know, get a message time one of his family died and the party they lived maybe a thousand miles away and they would get the intuition at an exact moment to be accurate. Let's put it that way. So what I'm getting at it, there are phenomena that I would like people to explore. It's interesting and it was interesting to me. I didn't jump to any conclusions about it, but I made my mind that it was worth paying attention to. Now I want to first mention what I consider the potential of the mind. I have a brief outline here.

vid-1-41:09

Basically, I just deal with perception here, and this is stuff we see with our eyes or we see with our mind, and we have normal sensory perception. We see the things in our environment. And number two is abnormal sensory perceptions. Visions apparently seen by the eye or other sensory organ, which will later prove to be invalid or illusory, where they snowed themselves, their abnormal perceptions. A third is mental visions or projections. If you want to draw a picture of an apple, I can give you a picture that you'll pick up with me. It's a green apple and around the rim, the high place in the apple is a string of yellow diamonds or whatever you want there. See? So you see if you've heard that you had a picture of the green apple and yellow diamonds. These are metal visions and they're projections which we sort of conjure up. They're not real. We conjure them up, but they are real to us.

vid-1-42:32

Then we get visions without projection. When I say projection, we actually force it on the screen, so to speak, visions of mental processes. That's called introspection. We can see our own mind workings. And we're talking about 'em. Now, that's introspection. And there's deliberate mental projections, deliberate mental projections that cause a change in matter. Now, I can't prove some of this stuff, but I'm going to mention, but this is a result of reading of things like in Tibet or India. Tulpa, they had a thing they used to call a tulpa. Supposedly the monks in some of the mountains in Asia were able to create a tulpa. A tulpa was a woman that was created by willpower and stuff, and supposedly monks created it. Now, what technique they did, I don't know or whether it was a scam. But regardless, there was a comment made. Somebody went over and discover, saw some of the tulpa and said, what are you going to do with this ain't human? And they agreed. They said it took a tremendous lot of concentration to produce the tulpa. It cost 10 times that to cause her to disappear. It's always a woman.

vid-1-44:09

So now meaning can you create something so that it looks so real that you accept it as being real? These are qualities. Their abilities of the mind by location is another. People have been known to be two places, and that used to be a lot of stories come out of Europe, but there would be a person that'd be interested in something and someone would see him in another part of the country. Psychokinesis perception without a body. Now that's the seven perceptions that I see. We see in many different ways, definitely seven different ways. And some of them are the perceptions inside of her brain, her mind, I shouldn't say brain inside of the mind. There aren't a lot of them, but you take these potentials and if people could cause things to happen, why don't we try the limit? Why don't we try to experiment and see what's going on and see if there is something that can be done. I'm quite sure that the healer I told you about, he actually put his hand on something and he fainted away. And that was all that was taught. There were no medicine, but he got a string of people. So they either must have been crazy or believed him.

vid-1-46:17

One of my questions is, can we ever trust our spiritual teachers if they lie to us or refrain from truthful reasoning? Can a person become the truth? There's another statement you hear, you don't learn the truth, you become it. And in other words, you have to be convinced that you're a better person if you're telling the truth and that's how you become it. But you keep it up. You don't just do it. Change yourself or try to change yourself and forget about it for

vid-1-46:53

Christ. The what Jesus Christ said. That was the truth. I'm the truth the way. I'm way right. Yeah. How do you know that's what it says in the Bible? Why do you read the Bible? You become closer to the truth. How do you know that this has to deal with the God at all? The reason I'm asking you this is because of translations. I've got a Bible at home. It was printed in 1540 in England. It was on vellum or sheepskin or something, the pages and written in Latin. And my father-in-law was a preacher. He was a Pentecostal preacher. And he would occasionally come to me and say, Rick, can you get your Bible out? And I want to check this. And so there's different interpretations, and he was upset by it because think in the Bible said that if a man did a certain thing, throw him in the water or put a rope around his neck and throw 'em in the water.

vid-1-48:07

If he scandalized their old children, a shame, we ain't got some of those today because all the guys scandalizing little children every time you pick up a paper. But regardless, the thing was that crisis opposed to have said that if you curse your neighbor, you can be doomed to hell. English translation is that you be doomed to hell. The original thing of that was a Latin is a word that implied the city dump. A lot of theologians have got in and found this, kept this stuff translated themselves. And also they would threaten the priests preachers or whatever they were. It's frightening their audience into living in harmony. One of the other statements was, I think if you curse your friend or something like that, you'd receive hell far. Hell far. You'd be thrown into hell far it wasn't. And it was Gehenna. If you read that, it was Gehenna and the original thing.

vid-1-49:31

And the Gehenna is a city dump. So that cities were walled, Jerusalem was all walled, and if you didn't get along with your neighbors, they throw you out the door, out the gate and the city dump was out there and you had to make your living from rummaging around for food. They didn't let 'em back in to eat with the other people. So the MNA was translated as a seeming and terrible place like hell, but it wasn't. It was a city dump. So if you get back into translations of the Bible, you get new concepts. Because I got a feeling that down the road as those bibles were printed, some of them things were inserted to please, to please or to maybe make frightened threats, make people get in lying more.

So I don't remember ever saying anything about you being casting.

I didn't hear you. Can you speak a little louder?

I said, I don't believe the Bible ever said casting.

That's strange. I can't hear you. Went to acoustics here or something.

Tell me what he said for you, George.

Huh?

Said, love your neighbor.

That's what, oh, why should you love your neighbors yourself? You love

Speaker 1

vid-1-51:10

God.

vid-1-51:10

R: Then therefore you should love all the rest of God's creation as you would love yourself. I don't think you should love yourself. I don't see the necessity of loving yourself. You're liable to get tangled up in something loving yourself. Well, let's get this in a capsule. The Bible has gone through some changes. There's stuff that I think that is, words have been changed down through the ages, and I don't think we can take it as a, we can't put this Bible on the witness stand because of that. And in other words, we don't know. We got a story that we follow that is good to frighten the little children and keep them from doing naughty things. But we don't have any proof for this. And it's kind of awkward to go back that far.

vid-1-52:26

Let me give you a theory. Just a theory. I'm not pretending to know anything, just a theory. There is a possible theory that religions, all the religions that were founded were caused by somebody wanting power. So when they'd get in a position where they would preach to people and people would follow them, they'd get money, they'd be powerful, people would be afraid to cross them and that sort of thing. And I did a bit of research, if not research, you can read it in the books on the different origins of certain religions. I don't know just what day they were formed or what their mood was, but I do know that they all became brutal. They were holy people until they got powerful. When they got powerful, they killed the people that didn't believe them. I think you're all aware of this.

vid-1-53:31

I one time studied to be a priest. And one other thing, I was born and raised a Catholic, and I got fed up one day. I got reading too much of their literature. And the thing with the Catholic priest is had I was in the seminary and got into their library, added up in the attic. So if we can get to it and history of the popes, they've had a pope, John whose real name was Joanne, and this is in their book. There was more than one female pope. There were two of 'em, but Joanne was the one that they talked about. And you got people in Europe at that time had to belong to the Catholic church or they might get their head cho off. They might get killed. So I heard about a group in France, they were wiped out almost to the last person.

vid-1-54:48

They were devout Christians. They didn't call 'em Catholics in those days. And they lived a life that was admirable. And they didn't think the Pope was doing the same because the Pope had got a business going. And the Pope today is a businessman. He's got gobs of money and every once in a while somebody gets in, borrows some of it off of it and never pays it back. So it hits the newspaper. In other words, he likes to play the market, but they got a lot of money. So why is that so important? You'd think? Well, for good Christians, we'd be feeding the poor play the stalk market.

vid-1-55:38

So anyhow, I'm talking about the people in Southern France. I got a book there, it's called the Albigen paper, the word algin. I didn't know what to call the books. I was so angry and I thought I'm going to put this in the life title of the book because I wanted to remember it. And I want people to someday find out about the Albigensians. They were pure. They had intercourse only for having children. And in other words, they were saving their strength and basically trying to play the spiritual game. That's all. Now, they were devout. No, I don't know the exactly who they believed, but evidently the pope didn't approve of it. He sent his army in Why should a pope have an army? He said his army and wiped them out. One he got and a lot of Christian Catholics that weren't in Alba group, and they sacked one town. They just killed everybody in the town. And one time, one of the guys that was in charge was asked by one of the people who were doing the butchering. He says, Hey, some of these people might not be Albigensians. How are we going to prevent kill and people? And this guy says, kill 'em all. Let God sort 'em out. He'll sort 'em out. He.

=== File video 2 ===
Time: 58:10

Speaker 1

vid-2-00:00

The ones that are Albigensians. That was the remark that was made. And the result is village after village got wiped out. Some escaped into England, Scotland, some of the descendants were found, the Scottish rights 1 of the Masonic order because it was a tremendous lot of time for somebody to get up and say, "Hey, let's let the world know." They got out, had to get out of France to do it. They had to get out of the papal reach. So they went over to Scotland, but he had control of Germany and most of the European countries. So this to me is I think of the people that go with devotion, looking for help, believing in a God that's compassionate and his people, his leaders should be compassionate. See? So what goes wrong? What's happening? Is this all a scam? Is it all a business? Okay, take the Muhammad in faith.

vid-2-01:16

I don't know how many you're acquainted with the history of Muhammad, but he didn't amount to much. He married a woman that nobody wanted. She wasn't too pretty, but her father had a lot of money. He was a rich man. So of course father-in-law didn't last too long. So Mohammad came into a lot of money. He set up building an army of people and making more money with the army. And the result is they had to have some reason to tell the people. So this guy Muhammad now is the messenger from God. He decided that possibly for himself. See, but regardless, you didn't dare deny it or you didn't dare attack it door, they killed you. That's all. And they went out killing everybody then that wasn't a Muhammadan. Now this is religion. See, these are things that are, huh? I said these are things that have been instituted by men. They're politic institutions. Don't ever tell me that you know that something above man institutes things.

vid-2-02:28

You'd have to prove it. You'd have to prove it to me. For instance, we say this in our prayers. God made the heaven and the earth. How do we justify that? Where is God? We have possibly on this planet, maybe in the hundredth galaxy way back and ain't caught up with this yet this sky is filled with galaxies and they found this out by modern techniques. I don't know how they did with telescopes or electronic equipment or what. So he's got his hands full if it is a he, but it's supposed to be running his whole show. You go out there for billions of miles, there's still groups of planets and God created the heaven and the earth. He had a big job. What was he type of man? Was he, was it a 20 footed monster or a pussy catt? What did God look like? This is the stuff that children are made to believe and unfortunately people grow up. Now, I'm not, don't get me wrong, I'm not denying, I'm not saying the human race is superior to every event. I'm saying there is a cause, there is a law that, but it doesn't belong to the Muhammad and alone. And they shouldn't be killing people just because they don't belong. Don't go along with it.

vid-2-04:14

It spreads further. I mean every major religion had the capacity for killing people. So we're defeated because we can't preach love thy neighbor. So when you get an ideas, always get some backing just because it sounds nice for say you love God or something, or you think that God's we were mistaken, God's right? We don't know what God is. This is a tremendous assumption. If the creature's real and so powerful and enormous that we wouldn't be able to communicate much less, get a favors from it. I think that what happens, the path of man is for himself. You've got to be pure yourself. You've got to believe in your perfecting your mind. Like I said, these talents may come to you if you focus it. And in that respect, each man has something similar to a God in his nature and the ones that don't, well, the tribe or the jungle rejects them. And of course we like all sorts of wonderful literature to say that they were struck down by a deity. And I say to myself, well call, we use the word God, but we never say what galaxy he's in. Why he doesn't appear. Why do we have to remain so stupid if he is almighty? Let him make us smart.

vid-2-05:57

Let him make us so that we can understand. And the only reason I'm saying this, I know this is we don't have to follow either advice, but the thing is that I always am afraid that people are going to be let off by a fairytale. Tell their children that raise the kids at the kids grew up and go fight in the army to protect a fairytale. The thing, the whole thing, as I said, you got to look inside yourself and know yourself and that's the beginning. And you can learn to create and sometime when you have a lot of time, I'll spend time with you showing you that people can create. See, but I don't ever believe, I don't ever believe. I hope that possibly if I put oxygen and something else together, I get water, but I have to prove it to myself and do it, then I'll know.

vid-2-07:22

Well I want to read a few questions to you. They're just pertinent questions. And then I'd like to open up a friendly discussion if that's possible. What do you know for sure? Does a man own a house or does a house own him and anybody's got a house? Think about it. Does a man have power or is he overpowered? Everybody likes this. All men like to think they're powerful. See, and women are more powerful men because they control 'em. A predator, a victim or both. Does a man enjoy or is he consumed? In other words, booze, sex, he thinks he's enjoying it but it kills him a little bit at a time. Consumes him. Does a man really reason or is he so programmed he can't help thinking in this channel? Can a man learn that which he wishes to by himself alone? The other thing is, can a man become become anything you want to become? I remember in the seminary we were supposed to become an altar issues. I never made it, but evidently they thought you could become it.

vid-2-08:51

How shall he know what he should become? And again, why build anthills before knowing what an ant is? I mean, why do we live in houses? Why do we build conceptual tires of fable about human thinking before we know that which thought is, and this is what I will perpetually harp about. Psychology does not define the basis of psychology, which is thought. Nobody knows what thought is that I've ever encountered. Maybe some genius down the road will be try it. How can we dare to define thought before knowing the source and cause of all thought it has to come from somewhere. When we describe bouncing, do you describe the striking object or that which it struck is thought the process of bouncing or the object struck. In other words we're supposedly thoughts come to us and bounce off of our synapses or something. And there's a lot of technical words that you could use to study origin thought like neurotransmitters and was that other one?

vid-2-10:05

Anyhow, they clans clan. Clan produce things that affect the thinking and they come from the prostate gland. Some of them, and I've forgotten the name of 'em, but they affect the brain and whatever thoughts come out or changed by them somewhere or another, can we start thinking, can we stop thinking? Try it. We're stuck is thought the process of bouncing or the object struck? In other words, a thought bounces into your head and bounces away if you forget it, everything struck, reacts with an opposite equal force according to physics. See, can you start thinking, is thought something received or something projected? Meaning all thoughts? Do we receive them or are we actually thinking about them and think that it's come in from outside? Is thought a sort of somatic emanation?

vid-2-11:23

It's come from a body because the brain, the synapses are all that's part of the body, but it's an emanation. Do we think maybe we never think maybe we're always caused to think the impress we read it and we think we react? No. The reaction's automatic is negative thinking as commonly discussed, negative to man or negative to nature. When do you call something negative thinking? What's it negative to when you have negative thinking and somebody tells you, got it, that's because they don't agree with you but they don't agree with is negative. Does the brain generate thought like a radio generates the message coming from a speaker? In other words, like our heads are supposed to be something like a radio that takes in messages and gives them out. Is thought limited to the brain?

vid-2-12:28

In other words, we have no real proof of that. Just what its limitation are. Because some of these things I mentioned are outside the head, the mine can affect things outside the head cause them to move or we get a reading on them, something of that sort. When a tree bends over, does it create wind by waving its branches? Meaning what are you doing for certain and what is done to you is what I'm trying to say. What is telepathy? Does thought travel beyond the head? Does only the head think well only think in the head. Maybe we don't even think in the head what is the vehicle for thought travel or somebody picks you up a thousand miles away the incidents, you shortly heard some of 'em or a guy gets on the phone and says, calls his buddy up a thousand miles away and he says, I heard you just fell off a house. Or did I dream it and the guy says, no, I broke my leg. These are all sorts of communications like that. They're just feelings. But when they follow through on 'em and sometimes people route relatives would be thinking the same thing a thousand miles apart. So what I'm getting at is do we really know what thought is or can we limit it to say, hey, it's only going to go 10 miles. No, it can't go a thousand miles.

vid-2-14:02

Do chemicals such as serotonin and other neurotransmitters create thought or do they merely facilitate the penetration into our consciousness of strictly sensory data? In other words, we're filled with chemicals that have given results out. And where will the answer to this questions lead us? I mean multidimensional contacts.

vid-2-14:36

Well, I've got a little note here that this same thing of ultra sensory data is that people apparently seem to get messages from dead people in their family and either of course we can always rub that off right away and say, well, they were thinking about it so they thought that's what he would say if he were alive or something like that. But then there's a tremendous lot of this that happens in crises. There are almost death crises. There's some things happen that aren't just idly drifting into the person's head. I'll give you an example. I had a younger brother hitchhike from Texas up to California and a lady picked him up and the car rolled in Arizona and smashed him. I mean broke his ribs. So they hurried up and got him into an army hospital, although he was a navy man, the closest thing was an army hospital there around Phoenix, Arizona. And I got a phone call and they said, we got your brother here and we don't think he's going to live.

vid-2-15:58

What is your religion? He's unconscious. And I said, well I you'll have to ask him. I'm not going to put him in any category. But anyhow, when he recovered, when he recovered, he told me he watched the operation from the ceiling. I've heard accounts of this before, but this is my brother. He has no reason. He's not selling me anything. And then I find out that lots of people unconscious and my wife was a nurse and she would run into people that would be semi-conscious or almost the nurses would think they were unconscious. And how she come about discovering it was she went in to take care of a party that was in pretty bad shape and I think she was blind or something was wrong. She couldn't see. But she said to my wife, oh, she says, you're the good nurse. They used to take her, the person that's helpless, they'd pick 'em up and throw 'em across the bed. They have to cheat, change the sheets and they throw 'em to one side then back again. And sometimes that is painful to a sick person. See? But she couldn't complain because she was helpless. And my wife said to her, what do you mean you're the good nurse? I'm the good nurse.

vid-2-17:25

She says she couldn't see, I don't know what was wrong with vision. She said, I know, but your voice, she said, you're the one with gentle when you fix the bed and that sort of thing. So we have sometimes other things set in when our census fail. That's what happened in that she couldn't see her, but she could hear her voice and identify it. How many full hours did we spend analyzing our thought processes? And I think it is a serious question. We why don't we do some thinking, do a little research if possible. Is it important to so observe our reactions? Are we only a body? And a lot of people think that we're nothing but a body. That's the extreme other pole. We're now first we're some people think we're little pieces of God or godless godliness or something like that. Other people say you're an animal, you're an animal. Imitating, imitating people to be socially acceptable.

vid-2-18:43

Are we only a body in what part of that body is the seed of life? We can cut off an arm or leg, cut out and replace lungs, heart, kitties, and still live. We're looking for the soul. In other words, see there, is there one in there someplace we can have our nervous system severed at the neck with paralysis except in the head and still live and think we can remain unconscious for years while the body continues to live. Noting that a person who is brain dead according to medical instruments can continue to live, breathe, and at times recover function consciously. Do we think or imagine that we think it might be incoming messages. Is our thinking automatic? We can't stop it. Yeah, we can. Maybe if we make up our mind ahead of time, but under certain conditions we'll stop it. Do not our thoughts come before we have time to replace them. When we decide to search for the source of thought, why do we become mentally wary or find our thoughts? Becoming able to find objective or describable distractions. You don't want to think of something or you try to do, think of something, things distract you and then you welcome the distraction. Last chart, trying to figure out the crossword puzzles of term, the crossword puzzle, but unable to describe name or systematize, the progression, origins or duration of thought processes we have never got to it.

vid-2-20:21

Is man only a blob of protoplasm which is programmed to react according to his schedule. Or is he a free agent? Here we go back to the theory of what conditioned reflexes that used to be pled by a lot of psychology students. I was down in Columbus, Ohio one time and I was visiting a guy and we were talking and he said, oh, we talked about the mind. And he said, oh, he said, you're just the victim of conditioned reflexes. I didn't answer him. So we continued talking and he tried to interrupt again and I wouldn't answer him, I just let you know. And finally got angry and he says, I said, he said, you didn't answer me. And I said, why should I answer a bundle of conditioned reflexes I didn't want, I just shut down. I didn't talk to you. I'm going to go talk to a bundle of conditioned reflexes. It has to be a human with the ability to think our thoughts. Likewise, only reflexes from programmed or calculated stimuli. Who programmed it? Who stimulated What is thought? Can we observe our thoughts? If we observe our thoughts? Who's looking?

vid-2-21:44

I mean the object is our thoughts. So how we're visualizing them, but who's looking at them? Because we'd have to do it with our thoughts. We'd have to think about it with our thoughts. We observe our thoughts. Are we not thinking about thinking? That's how it boils down. Is such a thinker? Someone who dreams of yesterday thinking he watches a dreamer, or is he a detached watcher of past and present thoughts? Who is awake and aware of the mechanical man? This is one thing we have to be aware of. It's great extent. Where mechanical. What are we an animated body and a suppressed, stagnated soul. Let's get the boundaries of this soul. See, what if we can't help him out a bit? Do we have a mind? Are we mind stuffed? Are we a programmed body and mind? Do we actually know that which we are doing? If so, do we repeatedly regret things that we do?

vid-2-22:48

Does a meta zone insect, animal or man know why it reproduces? They rush in. They don't know why. There's no real reason given out or reproduction outside of suicide. Maybe does a person seduce another or both seduced? What does man do besides fertilize? He fertilizes the woman. And that also with his body, the garden. Are you a hero or a victim in this setup? So let's go back to opinions or questions and see if we can, yeah, how far do you think the science can go? I don't know. I don't know if I'm hard of hearing or not, but there's something about the echoes.

Speaker 2

vid-2-23:58

How far do you think science can go tell answers to some of these questions? Think obviously there's certain limits that you think it's ask,

Speaker 1

vid-2-24:07

But do you think it's good for something? Well, some of the questions are just impossible, but I am not opposed to people experimenting. It's necessary if we don't know people experimenting and later through those experiments discovered. See? So I am not opposed to that. What I'm saying is that something tells us to do things. There's a difference we can't tell ourselves as quickly as some other voice can tell us. And what is another voice? It means? For instance, suppose you want to finish something you're doing, but you can't because you're hungry. That's because your stomach out talks the rest of you. There are voices coming from that. I don't know if I've answered your question or not.

Speaker 3

vid-2-25:02

You think our subjective self or subjective side gets in the way of our objective side? Inevitably,

Speaker 1

vid-2-25:10

Of course you're using a word. We'd have to define subjective sciences. Things that are like thoughts, dreams.

Speaker 3

vid-2-25:23

You said hunger.

Speaker 1

vid-2-25:24

Huh?

Speaker 3

vid-2-25:24

You said hunger. And to me that means kind of the subjective side and that interferes with

Speaker 1

vid-2-25:32

R: Something you're trying to do. Well, your body interferes with your mind always. Sure. That's the reason that the wise men of the ancient times practice celibacy to stop the body from wasting and enable to focus. See, this incident is the basis of all eso real. What I could do genuine religion, genuine or eso work is celibacy. Don't waste your energy. See? Yeah.

That says one. See the incident.

I'm sorry, I just can't hear you. Where is George

Speaker 3

vid-2-26:21

Howley say that once the door is a perception or the one

Speaker 2

vid-2-26:31

One may see the incident. So how do you incorporate,

vid-2-26:38

R: Well, let's take that. Let's take what he said. This is the clue to these strange, miraculous discoveries. In other words, when you close the door on perception, it frees the inner mind. That's true. That's true. How do you incorporate your idea

Speaker 2

vid-2-27:05

S into an idea of a soul or a man's spirit and how it actually affects his mind and the factual images he may have in mind? Thoughts. How do you believe that the perceptions affect individual's thought process or the way they perceive them?

vid-2-27:24

R: Well, I think perceptions cause changes in thinking. But she said something else there that I was going to comment on and which I believe that she said that when the mind is shut off, when the perceptions are shut off, shut off. Right? The po sense perception. Yeah. What happens? You may see the infinite, you may what one may see the infinite. Right? Write, write it down. And if people have write that down, you cut off the fascination of objective things and that's when this like a miracle occurs. You couldn't see things, what we was talking about. You could read people's minds, you'll discover things psychically, because I can't say why, but it's freed. It frees the inner mind. An inner observer, not the eyeballs. See, and mine leaves even what takes, it's a power away from the eyeballs. You forget about it. And the result is that this is their, well, I'd say, let's say very unusual things happen in that condition. And if I were to advise somebody to search for the truth and spend some time searching, I would advise them to try to block the mind and allow the inner mind to take over. What did you believe the inner mind is

Speaker 2

vid-2-29:07

Exactly? The inner mind, your spirit work. Because I perceive our physical exists because a shell or sheep for what is actually us, it's an enclosed, it's a case for what we shall actually

vid-2-29:25

R: Judge. Geez, I wish we had better acoustics here. What was your concept of the soul you was trying to give me?

Speaker 4

vid-2-29:36

It's she by our physicality.

vid-2-29:40

R: It's what

Speaker 4

vid-2-29:41

He's saying that for himself personally, that the inner soul is sheathed by our physicality. That our physical body, that's what

vid-2-29:55

R: That's, I can buy that. I could say that that could happen. Because what you have to do is cut out the fascinations or distractions of the conscious mind to get a super conscious revelation or to have a change of matter even. Yeah.

Speaker 4

vid-2-30:17

Q: So do you think that the more important aspect in attaining this vision of infinity is to strike the conscious flow of thought and on to start leaning more towards unconscious thought?

vid-2-30:38

R: I would prefer to say to use the unconscious, not thought.

Speaker 5

vid-2-30:44

Use the

vid-2-30:45

R: Unconscious. Don't say thought. Because the thoughts are a distraction. They'll be distraction. They can lead off rapidly

Speaker 2

vid-2-30:56

Mind. You're not conscious then you're not using your brain in a rational, logical manner. Understand what's occurring. How do you know you're using your brain

Speaker 4

vid-2-31:07

From seeing the infinite in the first place and rational comes from the conscious concepts? Oh, I think it's impossible to understand our unconscious. It's impossible to understand through physics. Yeah.

vid-2-31:29

R: Yeah. Our concepts don't embrace everything that we want them to embrace. For instance, can you picture a 6,000 foot devil? It's unrealistic. So a lot of times the stuff that's coming in from the body, the body mind, the body might want drink a whiskey. See? So it'll put a lot of arguments and the people that's drinking a whiskey will give you a hundred arguments why they should drink that whiskey. See? So consequently it grabs them. That's all. Let me get him first.

Speaker 6

vid-2-32:16

Q: You talked about the mind creating objects of those thoughts and other perceptions there. I

vid-2-32:23

R: Wonder if I get down Laura, but I could hear better. You think

Speaker 6

vid-2-32:27

Q: You talked about the mine creating or about how the mine thinks creating objects not necessarily outside of mine and the mine. Is there any way that we can separate for our perception that which is created by the mind and that which maybe comes to us from the world around us besides the basic physical?

vid-2-32:49

R: Because there's, I think the persons uniquely challenge stuff that comes in that way. In other words, like I said, you can conjure up something and it becomes real. That's in the road. If you have an objective, then you work for that objective after you check it out to see it's not going to lead to some other sidetrack.

Speaker 3

vid-2-33:18

Q: I think what he might've been asking is how do you know the difference between what's created by your own mind and what's real? How do you know what I was asking? I don't know. I'm guessing that's what I'd like to know. Yeah, you right. I'm just take the shot.

vid-2-33:40

R: Well, what was it again? I'm not sure what his question was. Oh, just give me yours. I

Speaker 3

vid-2-33:48

Q: We'll blame it on how do you know the difference between something that your mind is creating and something that's real?

vid-2-33:59

R: Okay, I'll tell you how. Because in the first place, you won't know how your mind creates. Make it for 10 years, maybe not. Then the mind does that on its own. You don't sit down and say, I'm going to create an elephant. I'll have a picture of an elephant up in front of me or something of that sort. Or you create something age in something you're trying to undertaking science or something of that sort.

Speaker 3

vid-2-34:34

Q: Are you saying our minds are always creating everything we see?

Speaker 1

vid-2-34:38

R: No, no, not necessarily. We're getting reactions from our sensory data. It's just reactions. And then if things are pleasant to you, then you embrace them. That's all you say. Yeah, let's think of that. See? But something that's irritating, you'll try to put it out of your head. We're always reaching for something that we can enjoy or use. And for every thought there's an opposite solution. For every thinking solution, there's an opposite solution.

vid-2-35:21

Q: I have a question.

vid-2-35:21

R: Yeah.

vid-2-35:22

Q: Who's directing our dreams? Yeah, there's someone, there's a great director better than directing our dreams and we feel like we are being in a dream where we don't understand what is around us. And every time we have an inkling of understanding, it's like a great revelation.

vid-2-35:44

R: Yeah.

Speaker 4

vid-2-35:46

Q: I was reading a book called Two Letters, 2 which is a biography of this Native American and he had a dream that the great eagle came to him. It's just some sort of God that said you will find, and they were starving. They hadn't eaten for like five or six days and they said if you go across the valley over the hills, there will be buffalo. And they went and there was buffalo. So maybe dreams are a P to true standing.

Speaker 1

vid-2-36:12

How can you take something that's possibly fiction then spread all those possibilities out?

Speaker 4

vid-2-36:16

Yeah, it could be fiction, but then again, if there's really buffalo there, then it could be real. They're lucky. It could

Speaker 7

vid-2-36:25

Possibly. But doesn't it a dream indicate that there are many different kinds of mine operating?

vid-2-36:33

R: Frankly, I don't think we know what a dream is accurately except that we

Speaker 7

vid-2-36:38

Remember. I know what it is not. It's not what we're having right here. It is not rational discourse. It is not the ability to scientifically parse things

Speaker 1

vid-2-36:49

Into

Speaker 7

vid-2-36:49

Lower orders and then say, well this is the,

vid-2-36:56

R: I think sometimes they come automatically from experience in other, just like you say, if you're in a place where certain animals exist, you may dream of those animals. I doubt if you dream about 'em, if you never saw them and knew how to identify them. So it is a backfire. They pick items from memory. The dream picks from memory,

Speaker 7

vid-2-37:24

But it is never the same ads in memory that we have. I dreamt of, or I had some friends that had some interesting dreams about animals, but the way they dreamt about the animals was never anything even remotely close to what they saw in reality. So the translation from animals to the metaphor and the dream was a transcendental jump. It was not something that one could say, let's pull it out of memory and this is what you get. I don't know, it seems to,

vid-2-38:01

R: I'll give you a little idea on what goes on in the human thinking. And that is the activity of a thing called an entity. And if you wanted to dream in a certain way, and it was the opposite, that could be just the thing flopped the wrong way, but it also could be thrown into you by an amenity.

Speaker 7

vid-2-38:31

You're saying that that's another reality

vid-2-38:35

R: Entity?

Speaker 7

vid-2-38:35

Yeah.

vid-2-38:36

R: No, no, no. Well, it's a class of action. In other words, I maintain that we have, in other words, there's an old poem or saying little bugs have bigger bugs and fought in their backs to bite 'em. And bigger bugs had still bigger bugs and so on in finite them. So we are conscious and incidentally that has been incorporated in the histories of used to pay a lot of attention to it. They used to have aery of a person's dreams and of course it might've been something he ate. So there's a lot of possibilities. And I think if we do, we should do some research on dreams. Not the dream itself. They're crazy. It could be a jumble. Different pictures. See, but actually what causes them, what perfects the dream. Because like I said, this guy that, a Apollonius of Tyana 3 story, he records this thing of the guy on the street corner shot he'd kill him. That was the same as a dream. It was a waking dream. He saw that thing vividly. A hundred miles took place. So I think we are acquainted to is such a thing as a dream and then has possibly different sources. It might be if you ate something you couldn't digest that used to cost three,

Speaker 7

vid-2-40:15

I think you're dismissing it quite lightly. The Greeks all had temples where they would dream solutions, their problems. American Indians, for instance, the Sek Indians up the Finger lakes. They would've dreams that the society itself would have to fulfill or else the society felt that their glue that held the society together

Speaker 5

vid-2-40:37

Would

Speaker 7

vid-2-40:37

Fail and the society will ultimately fail. You have materialist science scientists last couple of years who want to base things just on pure chemicals that have come up with this theory that says that dreams are, as you say, bad digestion or a jumble of meaningless things. I'm

Speaker 1

vid-2-40:55

Just saying that's one

Speaker 7

vid-2-40:56

Of the computer don't,

Speaker 1

vid-2-40:57

I'm just saying that's one of the possibilities. I'm not saying that's answers all

Speaker 7

vid-2-41:00

Jungian. You have Freudian, you have all kinds and you have all the dreams of the aboriginal peoples in Australia. And the one thing that ties all the things together is that they all have a belief that somehow it's important except for our materialists scientists

Speaker 1

vid-2-41:21

Or there's a lot of plagiarism. They're all copying each other's sheet.

Speaker 7

vid-2-41:26

I don't think so,

Speaker 1

vid-2-41:27

Huh?

Speaker 7

vid-2-41:28

See, the thing is, if you find truth in many places from many different cultures, and they all come up with this independent, the aboriginals weren't talking with younger or Freud. They had their own dream time,

Speaker 1

vid-2-41:43

But they didn't write either. How do you get this information from these aborigines?

Speaker 8

vid-2-41:51

How do I get the

Speaker 1

vid-2-41:52

Information? Sure. You're telling me what the Aborigines thinks All knowledge. You're a tremendous psychic.

Speaker 7

vid-2-41:58

In the beginning it was stories. It was stories told that the basis of human knowledge is a story and

vid-2-42:07

R: A story. Oh, now we're going to get fiction. All this stuff you're reading about the mine, about the originally somebody selling a good book and getting money for it. That may be what happens. See? And he's telling you the dreams they had and the miracles a result of his dreams. I

Speaker 7

vid-2-42:22

Think you're a radical and empiricist in the sense that there is information available.

Speaker 1

vid-2-42:28

I enjoy that flattery.

Speaker 7

vid-2-42:32

When you see connections between different kinds of information that are independent. To me that sparks curiosity and interest rather than dismissal. Because I see your attitude to a certain extent is the same as the materialist scientist in that nothing is material, therefore it does not exist. BF Skinner even went so far to say, well, we don't have thought. We don't have thought that a material

vid-2-43:03

R: We thoughts. Cause he couldn't define them. BF Skinner couldn't define them. Nobody's defined thought.

Speaker 7

vid-2-43:09

See? Right. So he said it didn't exist,

vid-2-43:11

R: But your little books on what happened to these aborigines years ago is kind of flimsy evidence because I don't see how somebody down through centuries that has to kept records so you wouldn't have them. So I think you've been reading some books of fiction possibly. I think they're all, can we give a couple other people a chance to? Oh sure, sure.

Speaker 8

vid-2-43:35

I want to know why you just believed this guy's stories about the average and this guy

vid-2-43:43

R: Who had their hand up over here,

Speaker 8

vid-2-43:46

This guy's story about the Native Americans who shot down pretty quick too. But you're really keen to believe this story about this guy who was standing on the street corner and predicted that they were killing the emperor. And all the stories about these healers that you've come up with and the flimsy evidence. I mean, you didn't give us any book title, but during your lecture, and I guess I'm confused as to why your evidence is particularly more important.

vid-2-44:12

R: I don't have evidence, I can't prove it Apollonius of Tyana said this or did it, I pick it from history, but at the same time, I'm insinuating some of these books that were written about primitives that didn't write, had to pass it down by word of mouth, that suddenly we come up with knowing all their skills and they had tremendous skills of telepathy or that sort of thing.

Speaker 9

vid-2-44:39

I kind shared with you, you could possibly explain the man's power, but something he ate. A lot of the things that are talking about seem to have the same basis, which is not much. I mean, it seems like you could have a power, you could eat something weird and the next day put your hands on somebody and heal them. But we don't know. And I guess I don't understand how the stories you've been telling describe to us or prove to us anything more than what we already know.

Speaker 1

vid-2-45:15

I don't want to force education upon you. You misre in what you know. So there's no argument. Yeah, right back there. How

Speaker 5

vid-2-45:24

Do you know anything?

Speaker 1

vid-2-45:26

I'd like to know that myself. No, not you personally. How did we know anything? I don't know that you know anything. Okay, start again. How do you know anything? Huh? What do you your life on and how do you know? Why do you believe something did not?

R: Well, if somebody tells you, don't put your hand on that object. That's a hot stove and you put your hand on, you know what a hot stove is, that's life. I'll say let's multiply that by 500,000 experiences. You'll learn to stay off of other things that are hot or you'll learn not to tramp in the mud or don't ask me how the earth got here. Don't ask me why I was born, why I have a personality that drives other people crazy. I can't answer all those subtle questions. Well, you've been trying to figure it out. Are you blank, haven't you? Not necessarily. What's the relevance of all your studies? What'd you say?

Speaker 6

vid-2-46:34

Q: What is the relevance of all your study then?

vid-2-46:38

R: What is all the,

Speaker 6

vid-2-46:39

No, I mean, because she just asked, do you feel that you have found any type of truth

vid-2-46:45

R: Or knowledge? I didn't hear her say that. I did. Yes. Okay, agreed. She said it. I'll answer you later.

Speaker 6

vid-2-46:55

She asked if you found anything and you said that you hadn't really been looking. What's the relevance?

vid-2-47:03

R: Oh no. Oh, I've all been preaching all evening about my life of looking and searching. So I don't know where that came from. I spent my life this lady. What were the experience that you had at 30? I died. Can you elaborate on that? I lost consciousness and the doctor come to the conclusion I couldn't be saved. I had consumed an enormous quantity of strict night. So he thought that would do the job, but I fooled him still here. Objection.

Speaker 10

vid-2-47:59

Your meditation of visualization. I guess referring to thes of the that in my own practice, I would sit 15 minutes of Christ meditate after a short period of time and I could sort, I would begin to see a face within the face. I would see as a face manifest itself. The picture, the idea I was trying to follow is of merging with the ista, which is

vid-2-48:50

R: Merging with what the Indians call the ish that you take a chosen idea like Christ or, well, I don't know where you follow as you're getting this information. I would be glad to read some of the literature. If it was, I could satisfy myself. But it was somebody translated something, really translated it.

Speaker 10

vid-2-49:08

It was a SW piece question. I was on the right track, was still kidding myself about who I was. But can you talk about, did you ever do anything of that sort of trying to see into objects or in your paper you said that it was dangerous.

vid-2-49:38

R: What was dangerous? I think

vid-2-49:41

Q: You had said that it was dangerous because of my instance. People concentrated on mirror. Mirror that you said visualization is dangerous. It opens you up to other entities perhaps.

vid-2-49:57

R: No, no, no. You're putting words in my mouth.

vid-2-50:00

Q: Okay, I'm sorry.

vid-2-50:01

R: Yeah, no, I use the word entities. People don't know. Entities exist. So I'm trying to furnish as much information as I can to you. There are causes of thoughts, causes of actions, and it isn't maybe our will to do it, see, but if we observed them and paid attention, we could stop it. We could prevent it by just deliberately focusing on something else. See,

vid-2-50:34

Q: So focusing on picture of something is, would you say that's not really worthwhile? That you're not

vid-2-50:41

R: No, I don't say it's worthwhile or not. I just say focus on something else. It takes me, I remember a case in World War ii. They were fighting over around in the islands of the Pacific and his admiral, when he turned the ship over to his lieutenants or whatever they were, he was automatically removed from power. They had certain functions and he was practically helpless. They ordered the canon fired in a certain direction, all that sort of thing. So he had a sweat through this bill. Hallsey was his name. You may have heard of it. And he was quite candid when they talked to him about his service in the Navy. And they said, what did you do? You weren't allowed to give any orders or anything like that, or the orders were already given what to do and keep firing until you kill 'em off, everybody off. And he said, I kept a stack of dirty literature and it's the only thing I could get would take my mind off of my job. He'd read porno magazines and he admitted it publicly. So don't do it. But I'm just saying that's one way. Keep things from being in your head. You get something worse.

vid-2-52:09

R: Yeah.

vid-2-52:11

Q: I just want to ask, this is coming from a class that I'm taking this semester, just like this random religion class in Mon. It says Nature created a gap between humans and animals and basically that gap is what this professor called human consciousness. Basically the assumption is animals are unconscious generally and what they do, and humans are conscious in what they do. And he says that culture arises and we try to undermine or overcome nature in this gap in order to remerge with nature.

vid-2-52:53

R: The guy's got a lot of opinions, hasn't he?

Speaker 4

vid-2-52:55

Q: Yeah. I was just wondering what

vid-2-52:56

R: You thought about that. My father used to say the animals could talk to us, but they were disgusted with us. So they never tried.

Speaker 4

vid-2-53:07

They don't talk because they don't have anything to say to us.

Speaker 1

vid-2-53:10

They surely could complain.

Speaker 5

vid-2-53:22

Yeah, I entity. Do you find,

Speaker 7

vid-2-53:26

Are there any civil systems or any religious systems like Buddhism or Tan

Speaker 1

vid-2-53:35

That endorse it you mean? Well, like Tibetan Buddhism. Buddhism

Speaker 7

vid-2-53:44

I'm not really familiar with, but I'm asking you just in terms of do you have anything that can

vid-2-53:50

R: Relate to us to help our understanding? You want to see some entities? Yeah. I'll tell you how to see entities. Okay. Get stone drunk. You'll see 'em.

vid-2-54:03

How do you see it then? I don't know how they'd see it. They'll tell you. You ask them when they get the monkeys and the snakes. They get monkeys and snakes, all sorts of visions. Those are entities. Divisions are entities. Visions are entities. Is that what you just said? Oh no, I say that. I think that entities can act and cause people to think. In other words, I don't think that a fellows, maybe he's drinking and he wants to get off of it. His whole being is hoping he can kick the whiskey, but something keeps putting bottles in front of him, see? In other words, and he'll pick it up without thinking, start to drink it. So it takes you quite a bit of willpower if you're on whiskey or dope or anything else to get off of it because it has its own appeal. Have you ever done drugs? Me? No. I've been around people that did drugs, but the strict name wasn't a drug that was supposed to be a cure all.

Speaker 4

vid-2-55:17

Well, how can you say what happens when you're on a particular drug if you've never personally experienced it before?

vid-2-55:24

R: Well, I don't think that I would force myself to go out and endure it just to find out what it was like so I could tell somebody what it felt like. I can't hear you.

Speaker 11

vid-2-55:38

Q: I mean, what if someone told you or someone advocated, drugged you and told you that it would be one of the most amazing experiences you've ever had. You go out and take it?

vid-2-55:50

R: No, no. Because I've heard, heard a lot of people say they have amazing experiences,

Speaker 11

vid-2-55:57

And similarly, that guy over there heard from people who wrote it down about these dream experiences and he just missed that out of hand. But then you hear about the guy that jumped out the window and jumped back in the other side. But you believe that, I just don't understand. I don't see any consistency in your arguments or what you're saying.

Speaker 1

vid-2-56:21

R: I'm not allowed to. I'm not allowed to. Well, hey, you don't have to listen to me. If I'm not consistent and it irritates you. You don't have to listen. Believe me, you're being argumentative with nothing over nothing.

vid-2-56:34

Q: No, I don't think that I am.

Speaker 1

vid-2-56:36

R: Okay. Well, you're entitled to think that, but there's no entitled to rebut, huh? To say something? I didn't hear you.

vid-2-56:47

R: I mean, are you going to continue to listen to me?

vid-2-56:50

R: I don't think you have anything to say. You're arguing. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

vid-2-56:54

Q: No, I'm not. I'm telling you. What I'm telling you is that it is ignorant to dismiss the power of drugs without ever taking it.

vid-2-57:10

R: Are you a psychiatrist?

vid-2-57:11

Q: No.

vid-2-57:12

R: How do you know I'm ignorant. How do you, because

vid-2-57:18

Q: According to our language, ignorance is accepting something that you don't have any experience with. I'm just speaking in English.

vid-2-57:31

R: You're just what? Speaking in English? Yeah. I can't say you proved anything.

vid-2-57:39

Q: I'm not trying to prove something. I'm just stating the point. I'm just asking you why you would never take drugs just because someone told you not.

vid-2-57:51

R: Well, do you try everything that somebody warns you? It might be poisonous. It's not human nature to try something that's poisonous.

vid-2-57:59

Q: What I asked you is if you would try drugs when a person told after someone that you knew and you confided in, told you that it was an amazing experience.

vid-2-58:12

R: I'd say you were selling drugs. That's your advertisement, huh?

Speaker 3

vid-2-58:22

Q: Is this possible that drones merely play with the iCal sensory elements and thereby they don't clear anything up? They only add That's possible explanation. Why.

=== File video 3 ===
Time: 7:03

Speaker 1

vid-3-00:00

R: Funds are not necessarily a way to playing with the sense, but you're not, I don't know. I agree with you. And secondly, I think the way I see it is your not argument, your comment about the A reporting or whatever is related to your statement about the Bible. It's a translation of something. It's not firsthand actual knowledge. Mr. This man talking about

Speaker 2

vid-3-00:33

Who has firsthand knowledge.

Speaker 1

vid-3-00:35

I know I, okay, what I'm trying to say is that he's read translations by anthropologists of what they assume these people are telling us. And I think that's possibly what you comment, but how do we know what they really said because he's not

Speaker 2

vid-3-00:57

Okay. Now let me tell you something. I just heard some talk about Indians and things they did and thought and heroic events and that's the same thing you're describing. They don't know they're reading a book. How do they know the book is right? Did they live 500 years to see these Indians do this? Translation? Translation? You can translate lies. You can translate fiction. I agree. People love to read stuff that isn't true, but they build it up and it sounds nice. So they read it. I say I like the proof that they have found something. Yeah.

Speaker 1

vid-3-01:36

You talked a lot about proof. I want to know what for you is

Speaker 2

vid-3-01:40

Proof truth. Is this something I've always want to know? What is proof? What is absolute proof? Why can't you find that yourself in the dictionary and take the definition that other people accept? Truth? You're saying truth or proof? Proof. How do you prove something is truth?

R: I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not trying to prove anything. I am not trying to influence your minds. But the same token, I'm not going to accept all the concocted ideas that you might throw at me. No. I'm asking you

Speaker 1

vid-3-02:16

What has to occur for you to accept something as being proven? What does it mean for you that something is proven? What

Speaker 2

vid-3-02:26

R: Does that mean? Don't I've never, never cared whether something was proven or not unless it occurred life or death. But just a belief it doesn't matter. I hear a lot of little stories here and I tell the incident of Apollonius of Tyana and that sort of thing. I can't prove it, but I'm just saying those are historic records. They're not concoctions. If they were concoctions, I think people would lost. They'd be hunting another type of book to read for thrills if you got to thrill out of it. Yeah. So are you saying that

Speaker 3

vid-3-03:12

That something is more cogen if it's written down at the time that it happened and then it's not translated into any languages as opposed to something that's not regeneration. You accept something then? Is that your touchdown? Is that why you accept something? Because it's written down and because

vid-3-03:36

R: I have never accepted anything, nor have I proposed that you pay attention to me about things that I may say have been my experience because all I do is say what happened? And you can interpret how you please, and I don't. Well,

Speaker 3

vid-3-03:54

How do you know that that happened? I mean, you just said that. You say what happened?

vid-3-04:00

R: Yeah. Well if you run your car into a freight train, you'll know something happened morning,

Speaker 3

vid-3-04:08

Q: According to you. I wouldn't, I mean no,

vid-3-04:10

R: No. According to me, nothing. You speak for yourself.

Speaker 3

vid-3-04:15

I don't think that I could. As far as what if I listen?

Speaker 2

vid-3-04:19

That's right. And I can't take a story out of a book and say, I tell you, I don't think I can accept that. Same as you can't accept. Why you telling stories about the guy jumping out the window? Who seen about 50? What would you like to read me for me to read to you? Little orphan Nanny or some harmless little tale that everybody believes in.

vid-3-04:45

Q: Why is that a better piece of evidence than any other that have been given?

vid-3-04:49

R: What piece of evidence?

vid-3-04:51

Q: It was the one that you gave about the guy jumping out the window.

vid-3-04:56

R: I didn't create him. That book's been in publication for years, so I just quoted another book. You don't have to believe it. You don't have to believe me.

vid-3-05:08

Q: Why did you quote the book? Why did you quote the book?

vid-3-05:11

R: What book?

vid-3-05:13

Q: The book with the story about the levitation guy. Why did you bother giving us that example? It doesn't mean anything

vid-3-05:21

R: Because if they were true, they showed the ability of the human mind to do things that you wouldn't think of. You wouldn't immediately. I know you can't prove something that's happened years ago. And that's the reason I say if the Indians who never wrote things down are suddenly not publishing books that they know all about this or that I'm taking it with a grain of salt, that's all. I'm not saying that I've got a lot more, I've got a lot more backing for the things I said. I didn't bring them up because of simple fact. It could just fall into something. One proof about every step of the way. That means you don't want any parts of it. That's all you have to say. I don't want any parts of that. I'm lying. I say, you say, oh, go ahead live. You're free to think that. See, do you think all the evidence you collected, all the backing that you had is important? I do. I do. Yeah.

Speaker 4

vid-3-06:26

Thought or feeling that gives me a lot of comfort is knowing that I don't have to know how BCR works in to push the button, get to run. And the same thing with my mind or my thoughts. I don't have to understand how it works in order to use it. The fact is it does work. And what I've found for myself is there is a kind of an inner knowing, and I can't say how I know it, but there is an inner knowing, which is what tells me whether something is true or not. And that's what we then use our rational mind to check out to.

== Footnotes ==

== End ==
</div>

1993-1101-NC-State-University-Raleigh-November

2026-01-04T06:36:22Z

Dmadmin: Add cats

{{Page header}}
[[Category:1990s]]
[[Category:North Carolina]]
[[Category:Has Talk Page]]
[[Category:Video]]
[[Category:Auto-AI]]
<div id="widthlimiter">
== Data Template ==

{{Recording Data
|record-date = Nov. 11, 1993
|location = NC-State-University-Raleigh
|number-tapes = 3 cassettes: Tape 1 (side 1 = 32 minutes; side 2 = 32 minutes)
Tape 1 (side 3 = 32 minutes; side 4 = 31 minutes)
Tape 3 (side 5 = 32 minutes; side 6 = xx minutes)

|source =
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s = 6 including introduction, file #0
On first pass there were files 0 thru 6 = 7 files.
See notes below: Files 5 and 6 were spliced together, so 0 thru 5 = six files

|total-time =
|transcription-status = Auto-AI was Nov 19, 2025, pasted here on Jan 4, 2026
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf =
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks =
|audio-quality = Audio quality mostly good. Side 5 and 6 are muddy (timbre of voice, RR says he has a cold).

|who-is-present = George, Shawn (?), Bart
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

== To Do ==

== Notes ==
SEE TALK PAGE

Same as video of same date?

Is video the same as the Mr Rose video, supposedly from 1991?

File sn0 -- 5:40

File sn1 -- 25:43

File sn2 -- 31:41

File sn3 -- 31:23

File sn4 -- 30:29

File sn5 -- 30:04
First 7 minutes is repeat of last 7 minutes of side 4. Deleted from mp3 file #5. File 5 – 25 minutes** see below..
== Transcription ==

=== File sn0 ===
Time: 5:40

Speaker 1

sn0-00:00

George Buehler: At the Zen Master. Some of you may have attended that lecture in the past, and it caught my attention immediately, firstly, because, well, OG tells some amazing stories. He told some stories about an old man in West Virginia who just happened to be a zen master and the most unlikely zen master since he was an American, was born, raised in West Virginia, was not into beads and robes, and most of the other things you might associate with the whole word Zen. Instead, he told a story about a man who had spent his life in a relentless search for the truth, and a man who after years of searching, had finally found it in an experience that culminated in what the Eastern philosophies like Zen referred to as enlightenment or satori.

sn0-01:00

It's an experience that many religious traditions recognize, and it's essentially the answer to the big questions. Now, I was very interested at this point because I was a freshman and like most freshmen, I was trying to figure out what to do with my life, and this seemed like the perfect opportunity because most Zen masters you might hear of, tend to be in books, tend to be dead, tend to be a long way away, and also very Eastern and esoteric and difficult to understand. And Mr. Rose was none of these things. He was alive, he was in driving distance, and he was very western, very easy to understand, at least from what I'd heard. So I got to know Augie, and then later on I went up to West Virginia and met Mr. Rose, and I'm not quite sure what I was expecting to see from Mr. Rose. All I can say is that in the years I've come to know Mr. Rose, he has been outside of and beyond any expectations I could have had. There are a lot of things about Mr. Rose. I could mention his devastating sense of humor, which tends to catch a lot of people with their pants down and his totally unpretentious style of teaching, which makes it very, very western, very accessible. And he's just a very friendly man, a very easy man to get to know.

sn0-02:27

But I don't think those things really summarize or the essence of what Mr. Rose in his life has been. I think the trait that characterizes Mr. Rose also happens to be the trait that Mr. Rose feels is most essential to someone pursuing some sort of spiritual path, and that is relentless perseverance. Mr. Rose's whole life has been one long, relentless, uncompromising search for the truth at any price. His search began in his childhood when he was about 12 years old. He joined a Capuchin monastery in Pennsylvania because he wanted to get nearest to those people. He was led to believe, had some answers, and if these folks knew God well, that's the folks he wanted to hang around with. He got his education there and spent, I don't know, about five years there. Eventually he left because he became convinced that the monks there knew no more about God than he did and had no privileged information.

sn0-03:29

From there, he went on to any source that seemed to have any kind of promise for giving answers. He went to college, studied physics and chemistry, and tried to find an answer perhaps through a materialistic approach. Later on, he found out that had flaws since the materialistic paradigm tends to be really good at cataloging things, but not all that good at explaining why things are or what your life should be. From there, he went on to all sorts of esoteric traditions. He went through spiritualism, yoga, Zen, anything he could find that held some promise of giving a direct answer to these kinds of questions. And it was only after intense years of seeking that he finally came to an answer. And since then, rose has taken all of that persevering dynamic energy and turned it towards trying to help other people. When he was seeking, he made a promise because he met so many hucksters, so many people who had partial truths or were just trying to fleece people, take advantage of people who were honestly searching for answers.

sn0-04:39

He met so much of those hucksters in his seeking that he promised if he ever found anything genuine, if he ever found something he could share, he would share it with people and share it at no cost and whatever price. So long as people would listen, he would talk to people. So in doing that, he's written a number of books. He's written the Algin papers, the Direct Mind experience, and the Psychology, the Observer amongst other books, and he's opened up his life to anyone who care to come check him out. He's donated 186 acre farm to the use of the TAT Foundation, which is a national organization that he helped to start to encourage people to search for answers for themselves and to take this quest in earnest. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce Mr. Richard Rose.

=== File sn1 ===
Time: 25:43

Speaker 1

sn1-00:00

R: Well, I think he's about covered it. We might as well go home.

It is pretty difficult to give you a picture, a real picture of Zen, but I do want to talk about it a little because it's not talked about much. And I had found a Zen teacher. I didn't go to Tibet, I've never been out of the country, but I found this fellow in New York City and I was kind of surprised he'd been referred to me as a teacher of Zen and I corresponded with him for a couple years. You pick up things. There was never any statistics or anything like that given any history of Zen. He went right to work on the business of sorting reality from garbage or sorting the truth from, let's say, making a racket out of the education that zen is. So I must admit that I knew he had a teacher that was in this country also. He worked without fee. There was absolutely no, and you build a certain superstition about money after a while. I don't believe that.

sn1-02:03

First of all, I don't believe in violating friendship. And when you're standing up talking to somebody or you're talking to them over a period of years, you can't play the huckster. You face the truth and possibly state the truth if that helps a person understand anything, whether his reason for being here and his inability to leave here or do something with his life that he wouldn't be satisfied with. So I got quite acquainted with the Tibetan form of Buddhism and Zen as well. And it was nothing more than a perpetual persistent questioning of yourself, whether you're real or not, or whether you have something that somebody else might want to hear. But the main thing is to find the truth. The truth isn't something that you get by somebody giving you a third degree. This is something you listen to all the isms that exist and try to find if there is any of them that has the truth in it.

sn1-03:32

And when if you dig, dig far enough while you find out that there's always a little bit of ality, I wouldn't say what's happening in Tibet, whether I suspected even in Tibet, there's ality, but not necessarily among the people who were following a zen mind. And so consequently, you get whatever books you can get your hands on to determine if there is an immortal soul. And it's worth chasing trying to find out and the process of which you have to read a lot of perhaps spiritual literature. But there's another way. There's another way. If for instance, I've went through all the sacred books of religion and I came away with no assurance that I had any proof that this stuff was real. See down goes through translations, and some of it may be deliberately a setup. So as when you progress into this, the more you focus on it, the more you become something and you get surprises along the road.

sn1-04:58

A person I've heard stories, for instance, I dunno if you've ever heard of iff, was I considered the first psychologist, psychiatrist, or whatever you want to call him from Europe. He had a profound view of the human mind and he examined the movements over in Asia also. And some of the people that wanted to find the truth, the answer to life and death were placed in a cell and they were handed a loaf of bread once a day and they stayed there until they found the answer. And good many of 'em died there. And he would say they'd pull the carcass out and scraped the floors and scrubbed the floors and put somebody else in place because this is how serious it is to find the truth because too much depends on it. And we are always disappointed with our lifestyle. No matter what you do. Somewhere down along the line you'll find that you miss something or you fool yourself. And this is socially, philosophically as well. So the thing is, is to get a means of checking stuff out. Don't accept it until you can check it out to your satisfaction. Now, there are exercises you can practice reading books and that sort of thing to get your mind on a certain subject. But what happens, there's kind of a little added benefit as you go along. And that is you find gifts.

sn1-06:56

Things happen to you that are favorable is what I'm saying. And little by little you get an idea that you're getting fed some information, valuable information, it comes about slowly. At least it did for me. I can't speak for everybody. And this is something happens that proves to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're not going to die. And in other words, you make the trip and return. This is one of the things that happens. The other one is that of course, that you have certain faculties, and I don't think that they're germane to the health of a person or anything like that. There's no reason why except that you can do things and you may not know why at the time you don't know the procedure. In other words, people can become healed and they can say, it came from this or that, it come from God almighty, or it came from a doctor's formula or they want to say.

sn1-08:07

But if people can be healed, and this is the principle of this shocking people into spiritual knowledge, you just don't dream about it. You just don't join a group of people and they all get together and chant. We know it all. Say each individual has to work by himself and fight it through. And the biggest part of the time, if you're not persistent, you'll think, Hey, I got to get away from this stuff because I don't have an answer. I'm not getting the answers. I'm just a body that's going to die someday. And I say this after examining all the scriptures too incidentally, it's possible you're just a body and nothing much. You're not worth much. See, and even for humanity, you're not worth much. But then one day comes along and you find out that you're real. And possibly, I can't say forever, but I do know that people survive death, at least certain people do. And then there's, I would, of course, I want to keep on the target here today, but sometime I'd like to be in a position where I could show you the ability to find illnesses and take them away.

sn1-09:43

This has nothing to do with zen, but it has to do in the pursuit of knowledge and truth, things come along that you don't ask for. And what the reason for it. I don't argue. It's possible that it gives us an impetus then to say, oh, this is wonderful. Let's get in deeper. Let's go for the big answers, or let's see how far we can carry this in the decision whether you're immortal or not. And the next thing is that you'll find that you can affect things. Now, again, I don't know. I have no assurance that this stuff is taught in Tibet. All I know about Tibet is that they have a shock system that you either focus on what you want and get it, or you stay in that cell and rot and shovel you out. So that is an accomplishment if the guy breaks through. Of course, I don't have any, no way I have any contact with the statistics of Tibet, but I do know that people went over there like Ger and found out that it's a rough deal. I mean, you don't play around with it. You can't bribe them. You can't bribe anybody. Even if you could, it wouldn't help you. So the one thing that I would like to convey to people are these things that every person can acquire.

sn1-11:29

But I'd say you should start when you're young. And I had a drive and I was a child to, I'd heard about God and I owned a meeting, so I went to church and did everything I was told. I never met him. Well, he was in a wafer, but I couldn't find him in the wafer. They served him every day at the altar. So I got to looking into everything possible, every ism, and never was really satisfied with it. I moved to something else. There was a break occurred when I discovered that I didn't really believe any of the preachers, anyone that they really didn't know. And it was all front. So that leaves you a lonely, very lonely feeling. But I kept on, kept on. In other words, how do you awaken yourself to something that you desire? You can't just use the prayer beads over and over and over and over. That'll just drive you into a semi oblivion. You'll quit thinking after a while, but you just keep an open mind and look for books, look for people, and little things will open up. And the thing that I discovered was that we think we believe and to believe is error.

sn1-13:25

If you believe it's error. I'm tramping on some toes that believe that they should believe faith is what? You can't have faith in something that slips out of your mind as soon as you the word you and, but you dig up your own system of self approach. You look in the mirror and say, is this guy outwitting himself as he ruining his life, fooling with religion when he could be out getting married, raising kids, and paying taxes. In the process of this pursuit, doors open. Now I can't, and I say, what doors? But the doors open. When the doors open and you get the capacity to cause things, then you're on the track and it's endless. I mean, the possibilities of things are endless If you want to play with 'em. There's healing people. For some talk about healing people, to me, it can be an ego trip and a person should never do it and brag about it or charge for it.

sn1-14:53

See, and this is a thing that I've found, if you charge for it, you become obsessed with the money and you lose your ability to think or ability to cause things to happen. And of course in this process, you cause something to happen in yourself as well as things that the public might witness. See? Well, so the only thing, I can't prove this, I can't draw pictures for you, but I'm trying to think how old I was at the time. I was 30 years old and I went out to Seattle to go to Washington, decided I'd get married. I knew a girl out there. So I went out to marry her. And of course after I got there, I discovered that she was a lesbian. And I made a jackass out of myself by making that trip because I didn't intend to live with a lesbian or her girlfriend, either one.

sn1-16:06

So I thought, well, I'll get out of here. And I went down. I got a room in some Chinese rooming house there. It was pretty reasonable. So I thought, oh, I'll get down to the library and see if I can get any good books out of the library. And I'll get back to my daily meditation. And there's another thing. You don't go through a routine of so many hours meditation a day. You do it until you get tired of doing it. You get tired of doing it. Take a rest, quit, get back to it because you'll always be hungry for the results. You'll see that there's a change occurring. So I was real free. I thought, this is wonderful. I thought I really made an ass on myself. And so I would come in and I got a job working nightclub there, and I'd come back and I'd sit on the bed and read Blavatsky or any books I'd get my hands on. And it was peaceful. So it went on for a while, and one day I was sitting in the bed and I got a pain in my head and the pain was such that I was convinced I would outlive. It was just I passed out in other words and knocked me out.

sn1-17:37

Well, I walked over to the window and looked out the window and I could see the cascade mountains, and I thought it was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen, and I would like to explore them while I'm out here. I went through the window and went over the city and landed there on the cascade that hilltop, so to speak, a strange thing. I got to admit this. There was no snow when I got there. And I looked through the window, I could see the snow, but there was no snow when I got there. And I realized I was dead, that I knew that my body had to be back there in the hotel room. So I thought, Jesus a beautiful place, but nobody's here but me. And I thought to myself, I'd really like to see some of the people on earth. And at that time when that happened, some, I don't know how it was arranged, but people came up the sides of the hill and they didn't talk. They didn't talk. And I didn't see anybody I knew. But it, it seemed that when I wished for something, something happened and I got the idea they weren't going to show. There was no snow there either. But anyhow, I thought, what was it I wanted?

sn1-19:09

Oh, I'm trying to think of what caused me to come back. Oh, I've been saying to myself when it went up, this is everything. Everything's here. And that's part of the happiness. And then I thought to myself, what is nothingness? In other words, I gave nothingness a quantity or a characteristic of measurement. What is nothingness? And when I thought that, I fell off the edge of a cliff and I thought, I went through blackness and I thought, well, when I hit the bottom, I'll be dead. When I hit the bottom his bed, I come to in the lying in the bed.

sn1-20:01

And of course I got up and decided to leave. Seattle was as quick as possible. And I got a bus ticket and headed for back, for made up my mind to go to Cleveland first because I didn't know how crazy I looked at my family. So I thought I had a friend up there, and I'll stop at his place and see if I am still weeping. That's weeping. Quit, stop crying. And again, I don't know why there's nothing beautiful happened, but there was at the same time, there's nothing ugly having. But of course the pain from my head was gone. And so for left, I thought, I've got to have an answer to this. What's happening? I stopped. I went down. It was after dark. And I walked down the street and I saw a Catholic church and I thought, well, I'll go in there and see if there's an old priest in there.

sn1-20:59

That was what kind of a psychic sickness I got. See? So I knocked on the door and some guy about six feet tall, looked like he could have been a football player and a big sturdy young guy. And he looks down at me like I'm a bug. And he says, what could I do for you? I just looked around. But I says, aren't there some older priests here? I'd like to talk to an older priest. What makes you think you can do what I can do? Get on top of me that moment. This was a healing process. I was no more passive. I wanted to kill him if I had a gun. And I'd shoot him because for his arrogance, I'd come to ask him a sacred question. I'm in trouble and I need an answer. See? And this guy want to know why I didn't go to confession?

sn1-21:50

Well, of course, no matter where it is, it's unnecessary confession. You confess to yourself. But if you face yourself or you'll try to correct it, if you confess it to somebody else, you might say, oh, I want to get rid of that. I'll confess it. Let see. And so consequently, if you got confessions to make them to yourself and change your ways, that's all. So things run correctly and more smoothly. But anyhow, I got out of Seattle and I came back down and that's when I made up my mind that I would get to the bottom of this. I didn't know what happened. I knew that I died. I knew I dead. I I've even conceived of why wasn't God there? Why didn't I meet somebody in the church? You get the story that the angels will visit you or something like that. I didn't see any angels.

sn1-22:57

I did know that there's a creative ability to, a desire at this thing. In other words, what I saw, I saw a lot of people, but I don't know what they were. Phonies just, it appeared because I wanted to appear. None of them talked to me or something. So I got back and I visited a friend of mine up there and him and his wife, I went in and I was telling him about the experience and I said, what do you make of it? And what he said was, rose, I love you. Will you marry me?

sn1-23:43

And he didn't know what to say to show his concern. He knew something what I'd gone through when I got through talking to him. But his wife, of course had another view and she says, Dick, I think you lost your ego. They were both possibly right? But anyhow, from that time on, I decided to get to the bottom of this to get the truth of the matter, find out what there is about the immortality. And I felt that I had died and had some view of it. So consequently, I didn't worry about total destruction. What the average person worries about is that there may not be any consciousness after unconsciousness. You may never wake up. See, and that of course becomes a burden. And I don't think you should just take a burden and sit with it. I think if you want to be spiritual, you fight it out. You fight it out, you spend time meditating or experimenting or whatever's necessary.

sn1-24:56

But anyhow, I start making notes. I start to a contracting business. So I would have some money to eat on. And I bought a farm so I could hide. I got a farm down there, so it was way back in the woods so I could be left alone. And I start writing, I right, come home from work, I'd make notes. And that was the beginning of the first book I wrote. That was the Albigen papers. And people would read it and they'd get interested. And the result is that, that's me being here is one of the things. If I start talking at universities and people came.

=== File sn2 ===
Time: 31:41

Speaker 1
sn2-00:00

Of course, it was one stage, the one stage where a lot of them, they were just dying to get into a place where they could smoke pot. And so they'd pretend to be interested in spirituality. Well, I left them, pretend I didn't demand they leave, but I didn't pay too much attention to 'em. Now that started in the late sixties and in 72 we officially set up an organization called TAT because you can't have things too loose. Nobody does anything. But what I discovered from it along the road was certain openings, certain little miracles if you want to call 'em that. And I was surprised. I was always been surprised by it. And I wish that in a way that the setting here had time for this.

sn2-01:07

I would show you, for instance, some of the things that can be done, but I don't want to take too much time at it. Maybe half of the evening. Well, people came down and quite a few of 'em wanted to amount to something on the esoteric level, but one by one they drifted away and other people drifted in and there was no great sages or anything like that emanated from it. But the fact was that they did. They read my books and I think that changed possibly a little bit and not a great revolution, but that's what's going on ever since then. And I get an opportunity to talk, I'd always go and it got it become 90% of my time practically, I lectured. I lived just in the panhandle, West Virginia. So I drove up to Pittsburgh and we had groups established. Somebody go off and they'd go to college or something like that and they'd start a group up in their area. So I got nothing done. But run between them, giving talks and encouraging people to look for their own definition. This is what it is. We don't know ourselves. We can't be self-defined. You have to try to be self-defined and eventually why? If you got enough good friends that don't tell you when you're making a mistake, that helps.

sn2-02:55

Well, so I've got some notes I want to talk about. The first question here is, where is the truth to be found? In the words of saints, in the discoveries of searching of the men in diverse stages of life, perhaps we need not die to understand the abilities of the human mind. There's a whole thing that if you can see changes in your own lifetime or in a few, not a lifetime necessarily, but sometime in your life, then there's hope that you can look further. It's like you go out hunting and it surprises you what you find.

sn2-04:02

Do we know the mind? Students of mysticism are often surprised by the discover of magical mental abilities, such as the ability to see x-ray vision. There was an article written up on that in a world magazine, and I got other discovering these instances and I became amazed. The power of the human mind. There was a man by the name of Joe S from Michigan. He wrote a little book of his own and he lived from 1877 to 1944. Joseph Sadonyy could cause it the lightning and not. That means the whole lobby, don't take the lightning home with us. You just see it. But regardless, it's unusual. So what happens? It's worthwhile that you take that. How did he do it? How does he do it? Why is this? It create lightning. He would count 1, 2, 3, and point lightning strike.

sn2-05:19

He decided that he would look into the stock market. So people encouraged him to tell him which stocks they should buy that was going get bigger worth more. And something happened. Something happened that he was trying to force something across. I don't remember exactly what it is, but he got ego. And when he got egos, the power left him for a year to the day just it seemed like there was a consciousness that was watching him and he was in fact, in that year of time, a year's time, he couldn't heal anybody. He'd be healing people. So from these reports, you get an idea of what something is going on that we haven't covered.

sn2-06:33

The mind of man has not reached a true knowledge of the human mind, of the individual's mental capacities. We don't. This is one thing we should realize. I think it's a shortcut. I mean, you can go out and search for the truth and if you continue you're sincere and dynamic, you just push and push. I say something will crack open. I don't believe in believing though what I'm saying now. I don't ask you to believe it. I think sometimes if a person gets, I've seen people thought they could see somebody heal somebody and they make certain motions or something of that sort and they go imitate it. Nothing happened because first of all, they had still had their ego too much, I think is one thing. It slowed it down. And the other thing was that they weren't sincere. They were just trying to attract attention.

sn2-07:40

The psychics seer does not divulge his method, that the healer does not explain his expertise so that the miracles are seldom learned by honest searchers. And I think it is not necessary. I think you can get the idea, get an idea of this, and some way down the road you begin with small things that you can cause to happen. And Sadony as I said, could cause lightning. And he would point his finger and count to three. And at three the lightning would strike. Now this is interesting. He's, his name is Sadony. I don't know his first name. One of the boys in our group went up to his place in Michigan, and of course he was dead. His son was 70 years old and he brought back one of Sadony's books. The son didn't know too much about his ability to create lightning, but he did accurately predict something on the stock market, which he said is what he lost his power because of it. He was greed. He went to help somebody else be greedy or something like that. So he kept away from the stock market after that. But I really do believe the man had a power, for instance, healing. I don't know the mechanics of it. I just know that these things happen. And if we're interested in the human mind, it's easy to say, oh, that's nonsense. He read that in the book someplace.

sn2-09:33

You start looking and you'll find it. You look in the Bible, you'll find instances of it. For instance, Christ was doing some function on what it was and talking to some people and a woman crept up behind him. I don't know if you remember this, if you've read the Bible, she was troubled with an issue of blood is what the Bible said. And she was desperately wanting to be healed. And she thought if she could just touch him, she would be healed. So she touched him and he immediately said to one of his or several of his disciples that were there, he said, someone touched me.

sn2-10:21

I felt my, what was the word he used? Virtue. Virtue. I felt my who said that? Yeah, he's heard it before. But the thing was you take this, you take this and what's it mean? It's simple. When somebody taps you, your virtue leaves your ability, your psychic and mental abilities leave because if you dissipate or lose energy from dissipation, your brain won't act the same the next hour or the next day. Too much dissipation. The man gets foggy. So this is what happened. This is a vital, there's something vital that permeated the body of Christ and also permeates every human being. And the ideas of course, that you don't play with it. You don't go out and do it to show off or you don't do it for money or you don't do it just for the expertise. And so little by little you get an idea that there is a mental, the place we live in as well as the physical place we live in, and the mental still is more powerful than the physical or the healings wouldn't occur. So you take that and you get down the line of realizations. Well, the first realization that you have is that there's possible to survive. And then after that, it's the function of helping someone else. Now there's a kind of a law. This is a law of sorts.

sn2-12:28

I remember a case of a person that was, well, there's accounts in the Bible, but I remember a case of a person that healed somebody and it surprised him. He didn't expect it. And I don't believe that anybody that does this, you don't do it with the conviction that you're going to lay a big egg. You have to see what, just say, wait and see what happens. There's no motion, there's no greed, there's no pitch for benefit of other people's information or anything like that. And what I'm getting at is these little things that you learn and become part of you when you desire to find out if you're immortal or not, your mind is ready to take on the problem, but you have to be been focused on something esoteric or something that magically affected the material body or the material. Was it something like lightning?

sn2-13:50

See, I know a lot of you'll feel like laughing and say that's it's a hot one, but don't happen. But he had witnesses and of course he made the mistake of predicting for one of his friends something on the stock market, and he lost for a solid year to the day he lost his ability. And I can understand because he reneged on his own, he had found a method of holding his head and focusing his head, and he played with it and it just left. Now, how many other forces are beyond that? I don't pretend to know, but I'm trying to get you to look for these incidents and reading when you're reading literature or biographies or something or to watch people, all animals operate intuitionally as well as people.

sn2-14:55

In other words, especially domesticated animals. We prefer to call this faculty instinct. That's a loose word we have for say the dog or the cat has developed instinct. All animals react logically or they couldn't be trained. Of course there's some animals can't be trained. Intuition might be called an instantaneous computerization in that it seems to sort out in a flash and judge and act from all the data of the person's life. History and more intuition may also involve ESP abilities and information from the dimensions, from other dimensions, from DNA and archetypal memory. The young was an exponent of such deep memory tapping, if you want to look into Young's books for book I, how many he wrote, the hearing of warning voices in the head are later corroborated with messages omens and seeing illogical reactions or compulsions as a result of such omens, which are later vindicated and justified.

sn2-16:44

The exclamation of a polonius of Tiana, I dunno if you've ever heard of the fellow or not, it was way back there, but a polonius was standing on a street corner and somebody walked up to him and he shouted, strike hit him again, killing. And this fellow said, Hey, what are you talking about? He says that the emperor's just been murdered. Now he was miles away. There was no transportation, there was no gasoline motors. And so in some following days or weeks, he found out that at that moment the emperor had been stabbed and killed.

sn2-17:24

Now, I'm going through this stuff because I think everybody here is bound to run cases of phenomena that are really striking and true. They come true. Now with this in mind is where we build our own source of miraculous is the pursuit of lifestyle, of rigorous morality in the face of no good reason for such or proof of the benefit it that you get for acting a larger section of the population. Believe that you bring down luck on you. That is the point that we're after. But we examined deja vu experiences to examine the intuition of knowledge of deaths in the family. A lot of this happens. Examine dreams that are precognitive. Why are they precognitive? And the fact that they can be precognitive means that this is something that we can use. We can don't just come back and say, isn't that strange or miraculous or something like that. But you find that you can adapt your own mind to the same situation that that person is that says, strike him again. You'll be able to pick up the fact that the emperor died as well as that man.

sn2-19:06

Now why all this? Why do we want to find talents for this thing? Because of simple fact, we're dealing with an abstraction. And the abstraction are things like the word God, the things death. We don't really define death. Does it mean that we quit breathing, lose consciousness and rot, or does it mean that we lose a body and gain another place to explore floor? The intuition leads us to believe and act before even a minimum of data is in. This happens a lot with people. What I'm saying, don't discourage it. Some people say, Hey, don't say that. Maybe it'll happen. Maybe it'll bring us bad luck or something if you're not evil. But if you're not trying to do something to damage people, it's not going to hurt anybody. Religion leads us to believe before the data is in. And by religion I mean all forms of transcendental belief about man's inner self, his soul or God, all of which remain unidentified. We have never identified a soul. We have never identified a God, but we believe, see, but that which religion impulsively postulates, science laboriously validates. This is something you'll find about esoteric philosophy. Science is validating spiritual beliefs down the road, sometimes decades or centuries after the original postulation is issued.

sn2-21:09

On the other hand, science or psychology are helpless without inspirational conceptions, a psychologist is not much good if he doesn't have any intuition. And I've spent a lot of time in studying psychology. Psychology and material sciences are so restricted and constricted that they dare not explore except in an orderly fashion and orderly manner in such orderliness will only prolong specializations. Now I'm going to mention a case that happened in this respect. I worked years back on the atomic submarine in Akron, Ohio, and we had a fellow there that was, he wasn't a graduate engineer or anything like that, but to move submarine to propel the submarine, they used a thing called k and a and they couldn't run water through the boilers because it was heated by, they got extremely hot. And I don't know what you, oh, I'll tell you what they used. It was a type of, what is it?

sn2-23:03

It was an atomic. It was an atomic heater, but it got the water so hot that there was an inclination to blow the sides out of the submarine or out of the tank. So the heat was terrific. So what they did is they used K and a sodium and potassium combination and pumped it through the tubes and they didn't explode. The water would explode, but the K and A wouldn't. So they could pump that over into the tank of water. In other words, they didn't have anything in the tube, the veins or the tubes to blow up. Well, they put the thing together and they decided that the K and a had to be pumped, circulated. Well, they put it in a pump. And of course pumps, most pumps have packing in them to keep the stuff from running out around the ends of the pump.

sn2-24:15

And that was grease and the K and A exploded to grease. So this ra just figured it out from common sense. They were a dead standstill. They didn't know that it was going to be able to find a way of running the motors on the submarines. And he said, run the k and a through the motor. See what happens. So in other words, they didn't have to have bearings and all that stuff. And the grease in them would catch the K and a would blow up the grease. In other words, the K and A would, you'd put a drop of water and it explodes it and they took the insides out of the pump or they didn't take 'em out, but they just ran the k and a right through it instead of on a leverage basis. In other words, they couldn't run it through a pump and they had to have it pumped.

sn2-25:14

So when they took out the stuff that had to be greased about the pump and just pass it through, they were doing it in business. Now this man, I was surprised about him because he had an unusual mentality. And I used, used to ride home with him a carpool and I'd ride home with him and one of the very patient people, because I was relentless. I wanted to find out this intuition. Where did he get this intuition from? He didn't know. He didn't know. I never forget one time he made him remark. He said, faith will move mountains. I said, I don't believe you. And he said, why not? I said, because the people on the other side of the mountain don't believe they're going to get hit with a mountain of dirt.

sn2-26:07

We torture each other going home from work. But I'm trying to get the thing across you that I don't think if you read in literature sometimes you run across some of these cases of unusual, what they call apprehension. You apprehend it. There's something here. And this now culminates in you finding a path. You find a path of spiritual action and you have a discovery path too. Just discovered something and aided the pumping of k and A. Then of course there's a, if we're going to get hunches or communication, nobody, nobody has ever said, but God tell us, or let's say some prayers and maybe it'll appear on a piece of paper or something of that sort.

sn2-27:13

The human mind is capable of picking things up and changing them. And it starts, the realization of it is very small in the beginning, but as time goes on, larger phenomena can be exercised. You find it happens in larger fields. And so I, I've seen this happen where a person, a man would cup his hand on a person's head when they had a headache and lift it away and the headache would be gone instantaneously. And this was for pains, almost any place in the body. And then I discovered that they could see them. They could see them, and this fellow used to walk up and point to the headache and he'd ask him, you have a headache, don't you see? Yeah. And he'd point to it, then he'd cup his hands over their head and take it away. Now this is not scientific. So this is what I'm trying to get.

sn2-28:27

I'm trying to show that there are a lot of things that aren't scientific. I often think about the fellow that pointed at lightning happened. After a while you get things happen and you can't quite rule things out. Especially when a bunch of people seen it, seen it happen. It'd be impossible for him to fake it because he don't know when. It's going to be nice if he could know just when lightning was going to happen at any points and make him look good. But what I'm getting at is we do not spend the necessary time to study the human mind. But with some people, those things happen automatically. And those are the instances. If it's possible to find the formula, you've got to talk to them. That's all. And I know the man that can see the headaches, but I won't tell you who he is. You might know him

Speaker 2
sn2-29:30

Well, where are we?

Speaker 1

sn2-29:40

I want to get in. This is a little, this sounds like something. Classwork. I've got the list of the, what I call visions, perception visions. Number one is normal sensory perception. We have many ways of perceiving normal sensory perception. We look as I see my glasses. I see that's normal. Number two, add normal sensory perceptions. These are visions apparently seen by the eye or the sensory organ, which will later prove to be invalid or illusory like a nightmare. Three mental visions or projections. That's a classification. And we conjure up an apple with diamonds embedded into it and you can see it. I use that as an example.

sn2-30:42

If I say apple, you've got a picture of me. If it's a green apple, maybe it's a red apple, but that picture's there, you can also conjure up an apple and put diamonds in the side of it. See what I'm saying is this is projecting something with the mind. Fourth visions without projection. This is like intuition. You have visions or intuition, visions or sight. You call it a sight. Visions of mental processes, meaning introspection, it's as simple as that. You watch your own processes and what I'm saying is these things we should do. Everyone should watch their processes and not be fooled or deliberate. Mental projection. Now this is, there's cases available on this. They cause things by projecting them, they cause them to exist.

=== File sn3 ===
Time: 21:23

Speaker 1

sn3-00:00

Things that they were able to see. They were called topa and they also could do the Indian rope trick and cause a rope to go up in the air like a snake. And healing at a distance is another one. Psychokinesis perception without a body perception, without a body is, in other words, if you're the incident that I saw when my body was laying in bed, that's what made me put that in the catalog. I saw things that I confirmed when I recovered, so I didn't have a body, I wasn't seeing him with my eyes. My eyes was shot. My eyes was over and laying in the bed, what I was looking at was something else and there was some interior characteristic.

sn3-01:15

What is the basis of all human relationship and of all mechanical and spiritual work? Is it not the truth? The truth is what we're after. This is the relationship that we need on all this work, business, family and other contacts involving trust. Even the sexual relationship, will it endure if the partner lies and lies to cover up unfaithfulness? Can we ever trust our spiritual teacher if they lie to us or refrain from truthful? Meaning it's reasoning to me, can a person become the truth? There's a quotation about that. It says I am the way, the light truth and the light or something of that sort. He made a positive statement. He wasn't, didn't have it, but he wasn't. So consequently, I think that the translation of that, if it inferred that his body, his eyes saw even though he didn't know his eyes, could see it, could see something and be spiritual.

sn3-02:26

Can a person become the truth? Now this is the whole thing in a nutshell. You don't learn the truth, you become it, and the result, the way you become it is your lifestyle has to change. So that until it does become that, and of course the whole thing is that I don't say that you got internal revenue, guy comes around and said how much you make? I've lied to him, but I don't consider that lying because he's a racketeer of Cs. He go pick my pockets. But regardless, it's you lie to yourself is what follows you up. For sure. So I've got a list of these. I don't know how many of 'em you'll remember later because the most important thing is that I feel is to get as much before a person is possible. That it shows very clearly that we don't think that everybody thinks that we're capable of mastering a science or something of that sort.

sn3-03:52

And so what we have is reactions and of course what we try to do is get reactions that will be more harmless. I've got a list of questions now. Provokable thinking if possible, what do you know for sure? Does a man own a house or does a house own him? Does a man have power or is he overpowered a predator or a victim or both? Does a man enjoy or is he consumed? Sometimes they think they're enjoying things, but it's really consuming them. Does a man really reason or is he so programmed? Can a man learn that which he really wishes to by himself alone?

sn3-04:43

Can a man become, what do we mean by become? In other words, what do we mean by somebody becoming what? But I think, I mean if you realize a little bit that we change and that's the becoming, can a man become, how shall he know what he should become? Well, you have to dpe that out. What's important in your spiritual life? That's what you become. Why build an hills before knowing what an aunt is? I'm talking about houses. Why do we build conceptual towers of bebo about human thinking before we know that? Which thought is now, where's the domain of thought? It's psychology. They don't know what thought is. I spent a lot of time majoring in psychology. How can we dare to define thought before the knowing the source and cause of all thought? Where does it come from or the essence of thought?

sn3-05:43

You go back in the essence of thought, is this synaptic or is this plasmic? Where does the thought come from? And if it's a synaptic, is it caused by the prostaglandins or some other chemistry? When we describe bouncing, do you describe the striking object or that which is struck is thought. The process of bouncing or the object struck everything struck reacts with an opposite equal force. Can you start thinking this is something you can't start thinking and you can't stop thinking. You can wish that you had started thinking, but you're already that wish is thinking. See, in other words, I believe that the whole field of psychology is one big scam.

sn3-06:51

They just name words for certain mental faculties and it takes us nowhere is thought, something received or something projected. Some people project their thoughts, which people say that at least meaning all thoughts is thought a sort of somatic emanation coming from the body. Do we think or are we forced to think? Can we escape thinking? Try it. Sometime you are thinking about something you want to quit is negative thinking as commonly discussed, negative to man or negative to nature. We always talk about negative, don't think negatively, and of course then we should think why not See, why should we be positive all the time?

sn3-07:47

Does the brain generate thought like a radio generates a message? Comments from its speaker is thought limited to the brain? We never stop to think of this thinking process might be outside the head or the resolution of a thinking process. It might be outside the head and even to the point where somebody else picks it up. I've had people say, I know what you're thinking and they tell you what you're thinking. It's unusual, but I know people do that. There's people to do it. When a tree bends over and does it create wind by waving its branches, what are you doing for certain and what is done to you is what? The point is we cannot see the wind. What is telepathy? Does thought travel beyond the head? Does only the head think what does the vehicle for thought travel? We have no reassurance that all this thinking goes on in our head. It could be six inches behind our head perhaps.

sn3-08:56

Does the body manufacture thoughts or does the body only serve as a conduit? Where in the body are thoughts received during telepathy? When you're picking somebody up on telepathy, what kind of a thought is that that seep out of his head and seep into your head? See, we never think to question these things. What's going on in certain mental situations and where are they sent? Where are the thoughts sent? Do chemicals such as serotonin and other new road transmitters create thought or do they merely facilitate the penetration into our consciousness of strictly sensory data? Let me have to think on that a minute. See, where will the answer to this question? Lead us Multidimensional contacts, telepathy lead us to telepathy or communication with the dead because the thought is not limited the head, so therefore it can travel most any place. And of course you get these cases where a person has a vision of a friend of his a thousand miles away sitting in front of his fireplace and he calls him up and he says, were you sitting in front of your fireplace? And the guy said, yeah, you know that he saw he has the image. You'll read of this stuff at some time or other people have even tested it at a distance. Tested tele telepathy at a distance.

sn3-10:41

How many four hours did we spend analyzing our thought presses processes? Now this is of course as a point which is we were talking about mental discovery and spiritual discovery. This is important. We should think about it. You can't just read about it and then take the page and say, well, here's how we'll create thought or explain thought. Is it important to observe our reactions, thought reactions? Are we only a body or some of the people think that we're there's no spirit, no soul, just a body. Okay, so the questions there. In other words, what we should do if we're good scientists, find out if we're only a body and what part of that body is the seed of life? We can cut off an arm or leg or cut out and replace lungs, heart, kidneys, and still live, but life was in those pieces.

sn3-11:47

We can have our nervous system severed at the neck with paralysis except in the head and still live and think we can remain unconscious for years while the body continues to live. Noting that a person who is brain dead according to medical instruments can continue to live, breathe at times, recover and function consciously. These things infer that there's some complexity that we never give a thought to. We hear the cases, but we never give a thought and never say, how did it happen? Why did he wake up 10 years later and say, Hey, give me a beer or something. Do we think or imagine we think is our thinking automatic? We can't help it. We have to think that may be the case in some instances. I don't know. Do not. Our thoughts come before we have time to replace them. When we decide to search for the source of thought, why do we be become mentally wary or find our thoughts, becoming able to find objective or describable distractions but unable to describe name or systematize, the progression, origins or duration of a thought process. We just have never got down to measuring the thought process.

sn3-13:07

Is man only a blob of protoplasm which is programmed to react according to a schedule or is he a free agent? Ines, I get there. I'm talking about conditioned reflexes. I hear a lot about say, I don't know how accurate that is. Is he a blob of protoplasm or is he free? Our thoughts? Likewise, only reflexes from programmed or calculated stimuli. Who programmed? Who stimulated? In other words, we got this little thing called temptation, and these are, you might say for some people they're calculated stimuli and other people they're not. They just overwhelm them. What is thought? Can we observe our thoughts? If we observe our thoughts? Who is looking? What kind of a creature can see thoughts when we observe our thoughts? Are we not thinking about thinking? Is such a thinker? Someone who dreams of yesterday thinking he watches a dreamer or is he a detached watcher of past and present thoughts? Who is awake and aware of the mechanical man or basically mechanical men? And this is one of the things we have to do, be less mechanical.

sn3-14:31

What are we an animated body and a suppressed, stagnated soul? Do we have a mind or are we mind stuck? Or are we a programmed body in mind? Do we actually know that which we are doing? If so, why do we regret things we do? Does the meone insect animal or man know why it reproduces? And anybody here, you can ask that question to yourself. Why do you reproduce? There's no good reason for it. You bring children into the world to die and if you don't bring 'em in, there'll be less deaths. Does the meta zone insect, animal or man know why it reproduces?

sn3-15:27

I think this is really something everyone should try to discover. Find out why do we reproduce? Why are we obsessed for? Is that what all we're here for? Is this to produce another creature? Does the tree create wind by waving its branches or is it always moved by external forces? That's a weird way of pointing it out, but the reason I ask that is because we don't know. We can't prove why a branches move on a tree and it could be that the tree's waving and causing the wind. We never stopped to think of the possibilities, but in other words, there's a lot of things in life that we have explanations for, but we don't bother to stick with it long enough to get a good definition. Does the person seduce another or both seduced? I dunno if you know what I mean there. They're not responsible. People are not responsible because no one asks for glands. See, but if you don't watch what your glands do, they might hang you. What does the man do besides fertilizer or is that our function on earth? That men are fertilizers of women? So we got to be candid about it. Are you a hero or a victim?

sn3-17:14

Are you loved or are you consumed? Did you ever have it happen to you? You thought you were loved and you were consumed? Do you have possessions or are you possessed by them? Which is the more evidential and apparent to you, your divinity or your animal appearance? The lover might like you but you won't necessarily. You might have an animal appearance. That's what they're attracted by. If we wish to plan our lives, do we not need to consider while planning that it may all be planned and that we have no choice? How do we plan around that possibility?

sn3-17:57

We're convinced we're doing things and it's possible that everything that we did was seen ahead of time cause and when we define our limitations, do we automatically need to define ourself is another thing. Very few people bother to look for their self. What the self is? Do we discover more accurately the nature of ourself? How much of a human action is faded or predestined? Is the knowledge of factors of any value in the face of possible predestination? If predestination exists as no sense of blaming anybody for conduct, if we're predestined to do it, that's the way we're predestined to get killed, we'll get killed for following our instinct or desires.

sn3-18:50

Is all of our reality merely a collected belief, a paradigm? Now, Chilton Pierce brought this up. Chilton Pierce was a bit of a psychologist, but the whole reality is maybe it's a collective belief or paradigm. In other words, what happened? His wife had cancer. I dunno if you know the story. It is wife had cancer and he believed that she could be relieved of the cancer if they refused to believe in answer. I don't know. The result, I guess somebody may have followed through on Chilton Pierce, I don't know if his wife died from it or not, is scientific reality. Only a progression of events planned and expedited by a mentality of cosmic or spiritual proportions which utilize the mentality, egos and energy of humans.

sn3-19:52

In other words, we don't know who's winding our clock. We don't know who's putting us on the street to walk down the street even. What is life and what is death? Are these items ever properly defined except in terms of each other? Life is not death. Death is not life. See, hooray. We never find out for sure what they are. Individually we've never defined death or have we defined life and are these items ever properly defined except in terms of each other? Can theological facts be established by voting and others? This is what they do. They get together and they decide whether one of the saints had a cousin or nap. Pope went to heaven. God, what is life? What is death? Can theological facts be established by Bodhi? Is Mary the mother of God or is humanity the mother of God?

sn3-20:55

This is one of the sayings I'm picking up stuff that people like to repeat. Is God determined by victorious armies if his army wins and he's on God's side, but getting back about this business, this is a thing in the Catholic religion is that the busted version was taken to heaven physically. She didn't leave anything behind, and so consequently she had her body and outer space. Where are the commodes? She'd have to have one. She'd have to have a place to eat or she'd starve to death, but yet they consistently imposed that thing on people's minds that she went to heaven with her body. That would be a tremendous thing to follow and find out. What happens is God determined by victorious armies is virtuous, established by psychological edict. I mean we've got a science that's running wild running amuck called psychology is virtue established by ecclesiastical vote. If enough priests or preachers get together and decides somebody's pure or holy, and that becomes a fact or by the requisites of our S essence, is it established by sce essence? What is sin?

sn3-22:38

This is something that be, a lot of people are tortured by the idea of sin, an offense against yourself, an offense against your fellow man or an offense against God. I'm doing these things just to try to straighten out thinking processes and the outcome is an offense against God recognized by divine outcry, earthquake or cosmic catastrophe. Is it a sin meat? Are the animals our brothers, are they possessive intelligence and soul? Do animals sin when they eat other animals or are such planting animals? Pardon? For keeping ecology in balance. So we got find a little virtue in them. Now, is it wrong to kill except for food? If so, do we do wrong but not eating the people we kill?

sn3-23:36

Got to get those people in the battlefield. Do something with them. See who is knowledgeable about good and the item goodness is good that which we desire or that which is in itself good. What is the condition of being in itself good? Is evil the child of good or is it a twin? We got goodness. Then we have to have an opposite. If a man drives a horse through a plate glass window, it should the man be prosecuted of the horse. If a man steals to feed his children, should we prosecute the man or that which drove him? The children. If a man rapes a girl, should we prosecute a the man, the girl who tempted him or drove him, his ancestors for his genetic appearance or glandular inclination or the force that design manca, take it back to God.

sn3-24:37

God did all the dirty work. See, we didn't have anything to do with it. Perhaps I'm not saying anything positive. What is equality? Was Samson equal to? Delilah is a baby equal to a dying man? I remember one time I was given a talk up in, I think it was Kent, Kent, Ohio, and I said, I didn't believe in abortions and killing babies. And I said, it's better to, if somebody has to die, let it be the old guy that's lived his life out. Let's not kill babies. They ain't had a chance and I can't help but think it. People are embodied with a certain love for babies, a certain attraction for them. They're very precious. An old man with cancer is not precious.

sn3-25:40

Well, I had one of the fathers and one of the people, students up there coming to our meetings, he stormed out. He was an attorney. He stormed out. He says, I can't stand anymore of this out the door. He went. He didn't like the idea of letting the old man die instead of the baby or you only half of a plan by virtue of not possessing both sexes. I think sometimes a lot of the stuff that we do is the result of two different beings coming together and they got the advantage of two different thoughts, plans, ways of thinking, and is peace of mind more important than global peace or herd piece? Are you only a body? Are you rather a complex organism, a cell colony, a nature oriented bundle of conditioned reflexes? We've been hearing that stuff a psychologist for a long time. Were just a bunch of conditioned reflexes. Is the brain a monitoring station designed for that organism's indefinite survival? Or is our body programmed for death? Death gene by death. Genes or something like that following procreation like the corner and the wheat. In other words, when you start breeding the wheat gets corn dries up, falls off of the stalk. Is all religion and philosophy merely rationalization, rationalization, emanating from that computer to answer constant cellular awareness of death.

sn3-27:26

In other words, we write books and everything else to try to tone down the shock of death. The germ falls from a dying tassel in corn to or is the eternal belief in life after death and intuitive reading from that computer, a reading not completely translatable into computer symbols which are limited. Is there a soul? Did it exist before the body or must it be developed, grown, or evolved? The baby who cries at both of them. In other words, I so think that the babies cry because they're sorry, they got here. Prove the following mind as other than somatic awareness, we are using these terms. We never prove them. Subconscious mind, ego hid super, ego chakra, kundalini, titel, astro, etheric, casual body, aro, halo, ectoplasm, spiritual ear conscience, spiritual nectar. We waiting to these, digging for phenomena and that sort of thing. We run into a tremendous lot of capacity on the part of the mind.

sn3-29:02

What is time? Does time pass or does it passes space? Time is stable. Metrics, which we are only in which we are only transient visitors. How much of life is a mirage? Do we see this world infallibly or obliquely? Just because we see the world as say we're infallible in what we say. Are the senses infallible? Can you see or hear or feel or smell or taste? Time is time only a relative conceptualization. What is the reality of time? Does the ant or amoeba, I mean this is where when you get to thinking about the time for different types of creatures, we don't know, but it's possible that their length of time is much different than ours. For instance.

sn3-29:59

In other words, an walking across a board or a plath that takes him a certain amount of time, which may be we call duration. When a human being going across that same period would have a much shorter time and so a shorter duration. What does a lifetime feel like? Does it feel differently to a child and to an old person? And I think it does. I think it does. I think a child has a feeling it's going on forever. I'll always be thinking there. What is the relation to memory at the time? Do we remember a duration or measure? If we have no clock at hand, do we remember how long a pain lasted? When the pain occurred years ago? We don't remember much about pains. Why is that phenomenal? Would women become pregnant as often if they remembered the duration intensity of the pain of childbirth? This is where this thing shows up that it is basically part of the deal. Do we have a real sense of time when we hear a clock ticking? Do we then know what a second is or what stretch of consciousness exists for others? In a second? I.

=== File sn4 ===
Time: 30:29

Speaker 1

sn4-00:01

A long period of time for an ant is what I'm getting at. And another something entirely different for a human being. Do the wings of the hummingbird move rapidly or slow to the gauging of the hummingbird? We think they're very fast. They may think they're slow to the time. Sense of a fruit flies is life. Long or short is a sense of duration or passing time proportional to the mass of the entity of that experience. Does time exist other than a fascination, which seems to be a brief or longer duration? In other words, you hear people say, time passed swiftly rushed by.

sn5-00:42

This is a understanding of that duration, and two people would have a different duration and then would get to wonder what's the long range duration of a lifetime? If the sun is our ultimate clock of earth rotation as a measurement, what is our measurement of time after the death of our senses? Do we change our measurement when we go blind or ears fail is time and illusion that prevents us from experiences self that has no motion. This is a thing that you sense a bit in the later years of life that ourself now is not ambitious and basically it has no motion itself, but it may cause it. Have you ever heard a cloth ticking in a delirium?

sn4-01:45

If the mind can be distorted in a delirium or in an LSD trip, does the mind ever understand the true feeling of a second? What is nostalgia? Is it the soul's view of a previous feeling? What is space? Is space interdependent with time? Are they not measured by each other? For instance, they call a light year. See, that's that's the duration of a point of light. Time is determined by spatial phenomena, rotation, duration. In other words, we count things by the surface of the earth, rotates. We call a day. And do space and time exist at all time except in reference to us? What is the understanding by insects of the distance to the sun of the moon? Can they look up there and see what's happening?

sn4-02:45

Do we have a true picture of nature? When we appreciate nature as being beautiful is such an appreciation of life or of death. It's like you go out and you look at the beautiful leaves. Autumn, that's death. See, have you ever watched the war that goes on in a drop of water in a cancerous tissue or in a cancerous tissue? You got some germs in there that's floating around. There's a lot of activity there and consciousness too. Evidently they know how to swim. How many pro zones are required to sustain the world's meta zones? Can they be counted? How many proteasomes are eaten alive every second by their animals or zones or whatever? How many microscopic meta zones are eaten each second by large events? Is death painless for these beings? Do they scream? How many small metz zones are needed to feed one worm for a day or one insect? How many worms or insects die every minute to feed the birds? How many worms are insects are needed to feed a pair of birds in their fledglings each day? How many worms or insects are in need for one hen's egg? How many that hen have to eat in order to produce an egg? In the summer? We hear the hum of many insects. Is this hum beautiful orchestral or a bedlam of screaming? We never really know.

sn4-04:13

Are the songs of birds more than just mating noises? Are not trees more attractive and autumn than when dying? What is the true destiny of all beings? A growth into individuality or a means of energy, food for higher beings? Predators? Well, I just use these to, if you want something to stimulate your thought, but we don't know what to think, we dwell on some of those things. We let's loosen up and answer questions or make comments long as they aren't too rough.

Speaker 2

sn4-05:17

What would you give as a definition of meditation?

Speaker 1

sn4-05:25

Well, I would probably say that meditation is personal thought, personalized type of thought. That's all we're thinking. You can't stop thinking no matter what you're doing, but that's meditation. We're thinking about it, but it's more personalized and wanting to know whether you're going to get across the street safely or something. Meditation is not strange to the thinking process. It is a thinking process

Speaker 3

sn4-06:09

Objectively. Thank you for coming. And objectively

Speaker 1

sn4-06:14

Say that again.

Speaker 3

sn4-06:15

It says objectively, thank you for coming objectively. I'm sure there'll be some that will come.

Speaker 1

sn4-06:23

Some will come. Are you still teaching in West Virginia? Huh?

Speaker 4

sn4-06:29

Are you still teaching in West Virginia?

Speaker 1

sn4-06:31

Well, I have a farm that we meet at and people come there if they want to go into a trance or sleep or chop wood or meditate or ask questions. So it's been valuable. Valuable? Yeah.

Speaker 5

sn4-06:59

For those quos you just said before, do you also think about them if you do have arrived to any kind of food you have? So if I think about them and arrive to the same, would I arrive to the same thing to Judy or not necessary?

Speaker 1

sn4-07:14

I really can't follow you. I mean, you're talking kind of low

Speaker 3

sn4-07:21

On the sentences you just gave us like you were reading.

Speaker 1

sn4-07:24

Yeah.

Speaker 3

sn4-07:24

Do you think about them regularly or do you already

Speaker 1

sn4-07:28

What? Know

Speaker 3

sn4-07:28

What's going on?

Speaker 1

sn4-07:29

No, no. I mean this stuff I read. Maybe you notice that sometimes I stop. I haven't read them for the last talk.

Speaker 3

sn4-07:41

Probably. You have thought about them,

Speaker 1

sn4-07:42

Huh?

Speaker 3

sn4-07:43

You have thought about them?

Speaker 1

sn4-07:44

Thought about 'em? Sure. Oh, there's a lot of things that I focus on more than others. I focus on phony religions. I think we've got phony psychology systems.

Speaker 3

sn4-07:58

No, I was just concerned if the answers, there are answers for those things, aren't they? Oh, yes.

Speaker 1

sn4-08:04

Yeah. And

Speaker 3

sn4-08:05

Will it be the same for me for you?

Speaker 1

sn4-08:08

I don't know. I don't know. Have you pursued most of them all the through? Have you pursued most of those questions you read to your satisfaction within yourself?

sn4-08:26

I don't think I've paid that much attention to them except to note. Except to note that they show the discrepancies in our thinking system. We get into things and do them before we analyze what we're doing. That's the whole thing. And they're read, of course I read them. I try to read them slow, but it's better if a person could read them off the paper themselves. They get what we do is we stumble around trying to find some way to talk to God and we never find it. We will swear on it that we've talked to him, but nobody even Sure. So there's certain things that you can't just because you think about 'em, you can't push 'em.

sn4-09:18

And in other words, one of the whole secret of miracles is allowing it to happen, not showing off and saying, look what I can do. And I called miracles. There's minor things that happened in their psychic life, and the thing is to be happy if it's good and if it's bad, look a little deeper and see why the thing has to happen that way. All while I'm talking, I'm trying to get it across to you that we have capacity. I ask those questions, but we have the individual has a capacity to do things that we read about, but we don't ever stop and try it. For instance, there's a case of we got his book down there. What was his name? Spiritualist in England, the name I don't know. He would go into a trance and float out the window. Two stories above the street. Who am I talking about? Anybody remember him? It was a medium of some sort. It wasn't nonsense. It happened. Well, what kept him up? What kept him from falling? I mean, there were actually witnesses that saw it and they go around. The people talk to him. Yeah, he could do it at Will, but I've got the book. He wrote a book about it in fact, and I can't remember his name.

Speaker 2

sn4-11:13

David.

Speaker 1

sn4-11:14

David Young. Right. Okay. So this shows capacity people. We have the capacity to do things and in a lifetime we never know how it's done. So no need to be surprised if somebody gets healed, don't be surprised if it fails. See, the idea is you can't force anything. We can't force any. We just robotic. So we got to have to try to get robotic measures of a little more developed expert robotic impulses or receptions. Yeah.

Speaker 4

sn4-11:58

How do you feel about astrology?

Speaker 1

sn4-12:00

Astrology? I've never got into it, to be honest with you. Yeah.

Speaker 2

sn4-12:11

What gives you the most satisfaction or I would say gratification in this point of your career or this point of your examination of life?

Speaker 1

sn4-12:25

Well, I don't have many thrilling adventures with the people that I work with, but I'm always feel better if a person reaches another step that is, in other words, I can't say why. Maybe I shouldn't like it or become happy, but it happens that I get very happy. I also get very happy when I see a baby. I love babies. I don't know why. So you can detect that by, huh?

Speaker 2

sn4-13:13

You can detect them getting up on that other one step higher just by sometimes without even maybe talking to them. Or

Speaker 1

sn4-13:22

Can you say that, oh, hey, the thing for them to do is not worry about me. Learn to push, learn to keep hammering away at it. Focus your thinking on it. And that's the reason I read some of these things out. There are ways of a person putting in an hour a day or so in some kind of spiritual work. One of 'em is examining what he's done wrong during the day, and the other one is making up his mind that he's going to follow a certain routine that enables him to think better or to perceive or to cause we could cause things. As I said in the beginning, we can heal people and you talk sometimes to people that heal and you'll find out that there's no formula. There's no formula. It is just magic, and it's something that you think about and if it happens, you rejoice if nothing happens back to the drawing board. But you don't try to make a business out of it. In other words, the only thing I can say, I can't say while we're trying to please God and God don't want us to do this. No, I don't say that. I just say that there's a time sometimes, but things happen better than other times. I don't know what causes it. I don't know what the time is, the difference of the time, but I mean, sometimes a person won't pick up things. There are a lot of people that are psychic.

sn4-15:10

But what I'm saying is we are talking about Zen, and I want to say this much about it. I've never been out of the United States. Oh, let me, I shouldn't say that because I've been, well, maybe not, maybe I've never been on the United States.

Speaker 4

sn4-15:42

The experience that you had when you were 30 years older, relying on the couch, couch, can you identify anything specific that triggered that IE What caused that to come about?

Speaker 1

sn4-15:55

You mean when my head had the pain?

Speaker 4

sn4-15:57

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1

sn4-16:00

I thought I was dying. That's all I thought. So you

Speaker 4

sn4-16:03

Don't really know why it

Speaker 1

sn4-16:05

Happened or don't know? I don't know. I think one thing in all my life, I've been hoping that I'd find a formula. I'd find something way of looking at death. I took one time, I was around 17 years old, I decided to kill myself, and I took strip nine and I wound up in the hospital and doctor, I don't know if you've ever heard of strip nine and know what it does to you. My mouth was pulled back in my ears and my head was trying to touch my heels, and I thought it would be a very simple thing. I would wait. I'd just take a strict night. I'd be unconscious. The next thing I'd do, I'd be in heaven flying around with the angels. But what I had a vision of, I went blind. I went blind with it. The doctor came up, I remember he came up and he was, my mother was there. She showed up. I did it on the street. I washed the street line down with some stuff out of a pump water, and I wanted out. I wasn't doubt, I just fed up with the games of life. That's all. So he said to me, how many, he had a medical measurement of it. How many?

sn4-17:35

So much of these five grams I think he was talking about. I shook my head. No, I couldn't speak. I shook my head. No, that wasn't the amount. He said, was it a teaspoonful? And I said, yeah, it was really a table spoonful. And so he said, well, son, you've done a good job. It's a very helpful, you've done a very good job. He was in the doctor's office. They got an ambulance and rushed me to High Valley Hospital, and I passed out on the ambulance and I figured that was it. The thing was, of course, see, this is the thing of training children to think that the angels are going to come and get him. Then no angels showed up. Their name must been out playing poker someplace. But I got up there and woke up the next morning, I got these guys, three or four doctors standing around me and wondering why I recovered. They couldn't understand why I recovered from it. But the thing is, I don't believe it's time to go. That's all. I jumped the gun. They weren't through tortured me.

Speaker 4

sn4-18:58

I mean, not to say that I would just want to go out and try something to see what it's like. I'm just curious as to what you thought just initiated that

Speaker 1

sn4-19:11

What I thought about what?

Speaker 4

sn4-19:13

Yeah. I mean, I'm not like, how do you do it? I want to try it.

Speaker 1

sn4-19:16

Oh, no, no. I know that. I was just curious to what you thought made the strictly your wife will sue me. You mean what kind of thinking I had?

Speaker 4

sn4-19:31

Just sort of, is there any, I mean, it just seems kind of like, wow, you're just lying on the couch and poop. This magical thing.

Speaker 1

sn4-19:46

It wasn't a surprise to me because I expected, but I had a vision. A vision before I got in the ambulance of, I watched myself and I was lying in a casket and my hand was up on my chest or something, and I looked down and it started to rot. I mean, the process of rotting was part of the vision. And I knew then that I was not going to die possibly, but if I did, I was no way to stop it. But I never knew why, except that possible some entity or some organism. It prompted me to fight back. And when I saw that there was no hope of fighting back then, I just went unconscious. Yeah,

Speaker 2

sn4-20:47

I think he's trying to ask you, when you were 30 and had your experience, what caused it? Why did you have an experience? What factors caused that? What led up to that?

Speaker 1

sn4-21:02

I don't really know why. I don't think anybody ever a fly. Just the mechanics of it, huh?

Speaker 4

sn4-21:07

Yeah. I was just sort of asking as to if you have any clue as to what sparked it. Just the mechanics of what? Just touched that off.

Speaker 1

sn4-21:16

Is it taking the poison?

Speaker 4

sn4-21:18

No, I'm talking about when you were 30.

Speaker 1

sn4-21:19

Oh, yeah. Well, I don't TI don't know what really cost. The thing was that I had gone out to Seattle to get married, right? And it all through, it was ignorance on my part. I thought all women were saints and this was a lesbian, and that was the end of that trip. See, I caught her with another woman and I went down there for very long. So I turned around. I thought, well, I went and got a room in a hotel, was a Chinese, a hotel, was just a cheap place to, and had too much money. And I thought, I get down to the library and see 'em daddy esoteric books, and so I'd do some reading and I didn't expect anything to happen. I didn't expect anything at all that happen. I wondered why it had the pain in my head, that unbearable pain in my head. I thought, oh, this was kill me. Of course, the person said Not too long after that, I was standing and I went out the window, went right through the glass, headed up for the range of mountains up there. Yeah.

Speaker 5

sn4-22:59

So how could you be Sure then it was not just a mental thing going on.

Speaker 1

sn4-23:04

Oh, you can never be sure.

sn4-23:08

There's no way that when I talk about these things, I try to be as candid and just say what happened, because I don't tend to embellish it. There's embarrassment and stuff, but I feel that if you tell the truth and describe how you feel, and I don't know why I came back. I don't know why I regain consciousness even see, it was just a tremendous pain in my head. But you never know what causes it. I sometimes think that that was my time. That's all. It's my time to break through some information and that it was life after death because I realized that I was dead. I realized that, but I was overwhelmed by the beauty of that place and the potential, but I could see anything I wanted to see. All I had to do was ward. I found out later on reading some of the books by Spiritualists was that they had an explanation for that type of phenomenon. And it was causal realm. The causal realm. There's an astro body and then there's a causal realm. Of course, I took it with a grain of salt. I thought, how do they know? But regardless, when I come out of that, I realized that something caused this to show on the screen of my mind.

sn4-24:53

And of course I fell off of the high place, fell through black just like a jet. Black couldn't see out. And I thought when I hit the bottom, it won't be dead. When I hit the bottom, I was back in, dead back. I was cautious of being in bed, but, but I think that it was sort of a blessing in a way because I've always wanted some reassurance that there was life after death. Because you don't get much proof on this. It's very hard to get any proof that you survive death.

Speaker 3

sn4-25:38

Maybe that was it. You just wanted to see what you wanted to see. You saw it.

Speaker 1

sn4-25:43

You mean that I created it because I was hungry for it, huh? Yeah. Maybe you were just upset. Go ahead. Could be. It could be. Might've been part of it, but I don't know. The thing before it though, I was in so much pain that I thought the pain had killed me. I didn't conceive it. I was going to try. Pain in your heart, in your head. I had in the head. Oh, I knew that. Yeah. In your heart as well. Did that have, I don't know. I don't remember anything bothering me there. Except the discovery of, huh? Except the discovery of your beloved some time before. Could have been. Could have been. Yeah. Well, yes. That was the theme of my life. I wanted to know. I wanted to know if there was any hope after death. And it's difficult to cause it. You go talk to somebody else. There are people, there's a lot of times where people are, they're dead, pronounced dead, and they think they're dead. And you talk to people, work in hospitals, you'll find us. There's cases of where they bring 'em in and think they're dead.

sn4-27:08

I remember years ago when I was just a kid, they didn't take a body to the mortuary, to undertaker. They buried 'em from the front room. And undertaker would come down and take a hose and get all the blood out of your system and pump it out and make damn sure you're dead. Before they al me. So I just figured that some people do. They can. One time, this was a small village I lived in, and a fellow had some kind of a spell that he came over and he fell, not only fell, but he fell in a bucket and put the widget on his head. He couldn't get the bucket off and he stopped breathing something of that sort. But he surprised him all by now. They actually had him in a casket. They got the bucket off, put him in a casket, and he had raised up and asked for a drink of water. But see now they make sure you're dead to make sure you're dead. They take that blood out, they pump the blood out. So I think, I don't know the reason for all this, but I think there's an education and those things happen to you. You get a clear cut definition between consciousness and death of just unconscious death.

Speaker 5

sn4-29:06

In a previous lecture, you said that after you got that experience, you were changed through that. Faculty was really different. So that might prove that that might be approved. That it was not only a mental thing or

Speaker 1

sn4-29:20

Not necessarily. Yeah. You can change physical things. You can change, you can heal a person.

Speaker 3

sn4-29:29

So you just got that after that. How did you, after your experience, how did you figure out that you had kind of

Speaker 1

sn4-29:39

Help? I didn't. I didn't. It was quite a while after I had my experience. I was, for a week or so after I was coming through it, I couldn't stop weeping. And I got on the bus. I got on the bus. When I got further, got away from Seattle, unless I was tore up, I found the, A tension left me. But the thing is that I had a little conversation with you over there, and what I try to get across is that there is information available. This true spiritual life is finding, some people say finding God. Well, I never found God. See what I mean? But I knew that there was some power strongly than mine. We.

=== File sn5 ===
Time: 30:04

Check this note: Side 5 was 32 minutes total. First 7 minutes is repeat of last 7 minutes of side 4. Deleted from mp3 file #5. File 5 – 25 minutes** see below.

Speaker 1

sn5-00:00

There is information available. This true spiritual life is finding, some people say finding God. Well, I never found God. See what I mean? But I know that there were some power strongly than mine that could be tapped or maybe we could blame it on God. I've noticed this. For instance, I saw a girl, I don't know anybody in back there, know that there was a girl between you and that lady. Her head was hurting her. And I was going to mention it to her, but I thought, well, not now. She left, but I could see her pain from here. And this is when it is unfortunate the person has to have a headache. But there is a possible way to see that and remove it. And we don't know the mechanics. I don't know the mechanics of it. Just know that it happens and I'm happy it happens. So yeah. Could you have

Speaker 2

sn5-01:16

Seen that headache keep your eyes closed? Have you actually crossed?

Speaker 1

sn5-01:19

So I never closed them. I never closed my eyes.

Speaker 2

sn5-01:23

So you did see something? You close something.

Speaker 1

sn5-01:27

No, I see it. We have a place down. Every we should talk was like when people would come in and I could go through and put my finger on their headache right on the spot. And I don't like to talk about this. It sounds like I'm popping off or lying or bragging, but regardless, in other words, if anybody's got a headache here tonight, it's possible I can take it away for you. That's the thing as to show. But the only one I saw in the room is that girl there. I knew she was in some sort of pain.

Speaker 3

sn5-02:11

Mr. Rose, can you heal people from a distance or do you have to have physical contact with them as well?

Speaker 1

sn5-02:19

I've never tried to heal 'em at a distance. Never have. And of course, I don't know why it would have to be to close up because what's my finger? There ain't no magic here. That's been

Speaker 2

sn5-02:35

Able to pick up people from a distance. Huh? You've been able to pick up other people from a distance. In other words, even though you haven't healed them, you've sense, you could tell people have been at a distance if you sense they've been in trouble to be some long term.

Speaker 1

sn5-02:53

Oh yeah. I've been able to tell sometimes when a person to give you old say, I got to go soandso in trouble. Sure enough. But see, what I'm trying to get across is I led a relentless life against ignorance so that I could have better sight into spiritual things like a soul, know what the soul was doing, what was capable of having in it. And so consequently, when your whole being is reaching for something to define yourself by or to indicate that you're not spoofing yourself, that you've actually got a hold of a system or method, which is foolproof.

sn5-03:53

I very seldom ever had a person that I'd point to 'em and see, I see. I'd see the headache and I'd put my finger on it and I just like this girl back here, I could see her pain and I was busy talking, so I didn't say anything to her. What I'm saying is we are in too shallow water. Things are deeper than that. If you look, you've got to look deeper. And the main thing is you got to be candid. Don't make any great exploits out of it. You're just happy because it worked. That's the attitude to have. If it don't work, you back up and say what went wrong? Maybe it's not supposed to happen.

sn5-04:50

Yeah. What do you think about Phil, that the in connection with spiritual or mental, I'm glad you mentioned that. I should have mentioned it sometime during the talk. I believe in total celibacy except for the purpose having children and because sex detracts from the production of energy, real energy. And of course I find it, your mind's clear your mind's that way. It seems that fixation for the opposite sex gives you a lot of trouble. So it's a simple way to get around. It is. You quit. That's all. But it helps to be, ation can be a healthy relationship, healthy relationship. People with healthy relationships can get gonorrhea. Don't kid yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 2

sn5-05:59

You said earlier that it's almost a law, but because of your experience, you gained this knowledge or this vision and you expressed it as almost a law that you pass on this knowledge to other people. My question is how do you know it's a law? Why do you think it's a law? Who made the law? And can you break it? Or what happens if you break it?

Speaker 1

sn5-06:26

You forgot one thing. I'm supposed to pass it along good or bad. Right? But I wouldn't pass any on. It was negative. No.

Speaker 2

sn5-06:38

How do you know it's a law? I mean, it's not the only place I've heard it.

Speaker 1

sn5-06:41

Well, it's a law because it's predictable when something's predictable. In other words, if every time that you think of dollar bills, that becomes a fixation. And after a while you'll either quit thinking of dollar bills to see how many of you make. And the same way with spiritual matters, you see, you get the edge of it, you get something. It's like a hunch and you try it. And of course I'm saying, I do believe this man asked a question. It was very valuable. I didn't say it because I don't like to tell people to be Sullivan. But this is the miracle. The miracle is a result of celibacy, of my estimation. I don't believe you can live and have sex and drink and get drunk and that kind of stuff. And you owe anybody. And I can't tell you why. I just say, I just don't believe you'll happen. Somebody that's tormented, allowing the son be tormented, need another drink or need another sexual act or something like this. Your head's focused on the mundane. It's not focused on another field of action, another field of possibility. You said you went into,

Speaker 2

sn5-08:10

You said you at one point you went into the contracting business, but you don't talk about it as anything more than

Speaker 1

sn5-08:19

A means to end, right? Was that your approach to it? Going into it? Oh sure. I had eat. Yeah, I eat. So you weren't interested in making a profit? Oh, you about to make a profit. Why? Huh? Why? Well, because you charge them for your labor. That's the profit. Yeah. You start so much for, you make a bid, you bid on 'em, and you bid enough to pay for the material and you're so much an hour for labor. How long were you in the business? Huh? How long were you in the contract? Oh, a couple of years. A couple of years. I can't remember exactly.

Speaker 3

sn5-09:05

In your pursuit's, pursuit for knowledge, is there a discipline that is studied or used by individuals which gives them a universal understanding that when they reached a point of enlightenment?

Speaker 1

sn5-09:20

No, I think there's a discipline. And of course the discipline, one of the disciplines is the celibacy. That's to get your total focus on it. Because if you're thinking about making money or if you're thinking about making the girl next door, you're not going to have the power necessary to

Speaker 3

sn5-09:39

Have your thoughts

Speaker 2

sn5-09:41

Move.

Speaker 3

sn5-09:42

How long did you pursue these goals of understanding the truth before you made that final determination in your life? Celibacy with the,

Speaker 1

sn5-09:51

Well, I was celibate. You're going to put me through the membrane. I was celibate as a child, of course. And it was easy because? Because, no, I'm talking about I was 17 years old. I could have had sex if I wanted to, but it was beautiful. I had been in a seminary and everybody there was Sullivan and I thought, this is a beautiful way to live. Your head's clear. You don't want anything, you don't worry about anything. And that continued up until the time I was in college and college I met a girl and had a relationship with her. So I saw that was a wonderful experience to stay away from. You don't need that. So, because I realized consciousness is much more valuable than whatever happens in the pleasure field. I'm assuming that because you went into a Catholic monastery, you were a Catholic. I supposed to what? I was always a rebel though. Believe me. The sacrament of sex. That is part of the sacredness of sex. Yes. Oh, that's not sacred. Pigs do it. Dogs do it. That doesn't make it pro.

sn5-11:25

That doesn't make it pro. Well, you'd have to talk to the dogs and the pigs. I think it's profane. They think the dogs get something out of it. I'll tell you what it is. I'll tell you what it is. It's obsession. It's obsession. And you get, people get hooked on it just like you get hooked on booze. Sometimes you get hooked on booth, they find out that they're a slave, so they start drinking. They're unhappy with the situation. But I think there's a magic in it. I really believe it's a magic I, things happen that I can't do, even though I'm celibate, but I, things happen are favorable, but a long period of time. Creative sense. Huh? An creative sense. I had children. Yeah, I've been married twice. See, I had two, three, well, I had two children. My first wife, she had another child that wasn't before I met her. See my second wife, I had one child and I a celibacy regardless. And I find them healthier.

sn5-13:01

The whole thing about sex is basically after you do it so many times you think, what the hell? The draw. What's attraction here? The attraction is we're animals that can't control ourselves. You get the urge. We function like an animal. Well, if that's weakening you, then that's civilization. That's civilized. Civilized people, not just responding to an urge and you have to block it. That's all. You just have to, I find that thinking it's easier. Your health is better and you're like a free person. And of course it might sound strange. I was married, of course, I pulled some strange things. I married my first wife, I married her, she's pregnant.

sn5-14:09

I'm not kidding. That wasn't my kid. But her people were beating the hell out of her and she didn't have any money and she was trying to make a few bucks to feed the baby by diapers before it was born. And her parents were holy rollers and they believed that they should beat the hell out of her. And if she had a baby inside of her, could deformed the baby or something. And for the sake of God, beat the hell out of her because it's perfectly natural for people to have babies. So I went down to her house and asked her what she was going to do about the baby. And she says, well, I'm going to raise it. And I said, why don't you get married? She says, who in the hell will have me? I said, where? I said, I'll in about a week. He got married. I had two other children. Barr, the one by the other guy. Whoever he was was the smartest one on the bunch. Didn't flatter me too much. I believe there's, excuse me, I believe there's beauty in life, but at the same time, you got to watch it sometimes carry it too far you want to say.

Speaker 4

sn5-15:37

Do you think that making a spiritual discovery or having an experience like yours that already changes your after death experience?

Speaker 1

sn5-15:47

I don't know. I couldn't answer that. I could not see when things happen, when things happen out of the blue, if you're praying every day and that sort of thing, and then have an experience, I said, well, might've been the result of prayers or something like that. I wasn't praying. I was out there. I was out there to get married.

Speaker 4

sn5-16:06

I've heard you say before that people's after death experiences are not the same. Everyone does not find the same thing as that. And the implications sometimes about the importance of doing spiritual work and making some kind of a discovery while you're alive. Oh sure. The implication seems strong that by doing that you'll somehow improve the status of your

Speaker 1

sn5-16:29

After death experience. Well see. I can't prove that either. You take a gamble, if you think there's anything that's going to guard you, like an angel guard angel or something like that

Speaker 3

sn5-16:44

Of your feelings of your experiences for an after death experience. Yeah,

Speaker 1

sn5-16:51

I figured that. I saw what would happen. Very happy. I was very happy and I was amazed at the scope of it. When I landed there, one of the first things I thought was, I can have anything I want. I didn't want anything in particular. I did not. I like to seen some of the people on earth, but when they showed up, it wasn't my relatives. There were some people showed up, but now what cause of that was, I don't know. That could have been

Speaker 3

sn5-17:32

Make-believe. Did you see any of these in these since your experience in real life? No. You mean of these visions, the ones that you saw that

Speaker 1

sn5-17:42

Time? No, never. Didn't see them again. It's hard without getting a picture of what occurred, number one, the pain in my head. Where did it come from? That's what I never could understand. I can't believe that something pain is greatest and knock you out. Wouldn't kill you. You've got a hemorrhage or something up in there, see? So I don't know why that tremendous pain was there. And when I came out of it, when I fell, it's like I fell into a darkness. And when I came out of it, of course I was very unhappy and couldn't stop weeping. Stop weeping. And I thought I got to get out of town. And so town must be driving me crazy. Is

Speaker 3

sn5-18:33

This the darkness

Speaker 1

sn5-18:33

That brought

Speaker 3

sn5-18:34

You to this level? Do you think that this is the lowest level of the spirit?

Speaker 1

sn5-18:40

Well, I don't don't think it was that particularly. It was the idea that I had left the place that I thought was real. I thought it was real. Had you been studying zen before that? Huh? Had you been studying Zen before? Before? I have to figure. Oh yes. Yes. I was 30 years old when I went to Seattle. I Zen is rather complex and it's very simple, but it's complex. Just like we're trying to talk about healing. And I'll give you another example. This other course. Anyhow, I got Ill one time not feeling good. I couldn't shake it. So I tried to get out and walk us three, come back. So I walked down in the four or five blocks and come back home and just exercise. And so I stopped in a beer joint and they were playing re 25 cents hand. And I sat there and took my mind off of my trouble. Well, lost a little money. And of course I lost over a thousand bucks, I'd say before they got me the crazy ante, let put a dollar in a piece and bets went up. Size of the pot and all this thing. Well, I realized what they were doing. They saw through me that I had my hand shook when I had a good hand. So they'd bet bluffed me out.

sn5-20:34

So I decided, well, I'm put a stop to this. I'm going to call everything that looks anyway. If I get a decent of an hand, I called. And what they were doing were bluffing. I didn't raise them. I just called every time. Boy. They start losing. And it was like, just like a disease. They couldn't get back. I could tell you some stories about it. I didn't even know how to play Booker. I had to stop. And I say, wait a minute, our ACEs ones or are they underneath of a two or are they the top one on the deck? And they'd look at me and tell me the truth naturally. And ACEs were the highest card. I had five of 'em.

sn5-21:19

And a low card. Your low card was wild lowest card. You maybe heard about this stuff. And I didn't know if Ace was number one or it was number 13. And so they'd be betting. And you had a rule in the card game that you had to bet if you had a CI hand. In other words, keep from floating through and letting people bet for you and then play ignorant and rake you more money. But if you really put out a bet, they'd say, well, he's got something. But with me, I couldn't hide it. I couldn't hide it. They knew what I had generally, but I just got real honest with them. I'd say, give me a king. And they'd flip the card and there'd be a king. I'd have two ACEs. I'd say, I need another A card, be an ace. And it was uncanny. I've seen the guys get up and eat the cards. It get so frustrated and chew the cards. That one a new deck. Maybe I'm reading the back of or something.

sn5-22:39

But I'll tell you, it got my mind off of my illness. And I got my money back in maybe 9,000 more. I had a fall of them. They were doing the bet and I had to call them. So we'd go over across the river into Ohio and I'd buy a mistake dinner with their money. But to me it was magic. It was really magic. I literally asked for, they were dealing, not me. They'd be dealing and I'd say, give me an name, give me this. I get it. And I tell you, they got pretty upset too.

sn5-23:21

I didn't deal. I didn't know how to deal. I didn't want to deal with it. I left a deal. They'd been accusing me of stacking the deck. But this to me was, this was magical. It had to be, I didn't even know the power. I thought if I've got, for instance, if you got the low card and wild, did ever play that game, huh? No. Well, you just like this poker, but you play the lowest card in your hand is the wild card. So if you get two threes and you want to pick up another pair like Jacks, that'd be four jacks. But if you hit a two, you got three threes. You know what I mean? So I had to stop and ask them questions. So that's another stupid I then stop me from, couldn't stop me from winning. Yeah. But I believe in this that there's a tremendous lot of things you can do. Number one, if you're not being greedy or if you're not trying to cheat or something like that, I was trying to pass some time, forget about my illness, see? And so I just thought, well, I had to get back home and get some more money.

sn5-24:50

They cleaned me out. But then I thought, well I'll make sure. I'll make them show their cards. I'll call. And that's what wrecked. And it kept on. I mean it kept on I one, they didn't accuse me of something. They couldn't accuse me of anything. I wouldn't deal. I knew that, but I was amazed by it. That's all amazed by it. And like I said, I'll tell you an instance. When I met a girl, when I was getting ready to marry her, and I would sit with a person like I face, she get pulled up a chair and I'd sit, I'll tell you what was wrong with your health. And she was sitting across from me. Now there's some boys back there that know this party talking about they can corroborate this. And I saw a pair of, I saw a string of beads across her chest was inside someplace.

sn5-26:00

I thought, this is crazy. You could see little things like a thread between them. The thread wasn't extended as much as the beads. And then I saw from her, this part of her belly down all black. And I said to her, I said, you got some, are you wearing beads or anything underneath your address? She said, no. I told her, I said, I've seen something strange there. And I told her about the other part of her body being black. And she said, well, she just come down from Pittsburgh. She'd been living up there. She says, I'll you back up. I had an x-ray taken for some reason, I'll go and pick up the x-ray. And she brought it back and the reading would come with it. She had a line called the line of these aneurysms. No, no, they were granuloma. Huh? Granuloma. Granuloma. Yeah.

sn5-27:09

Granuloma a line of granuloma and a diagonal. Hold that out. Diagonal line across her chest. So I knew that I wasn't killing myself. Of course they only did the X-rayed her lung, not the lower body. See? So what happened is she developed two female trouble. Her uterus growed to her backbone. And that was, I didn't know what it was, but that's what I found out later about that region. So of course I don't say you can just do that. I always was tongue in cheek that I try it. See, but we'd have these CH tacos we call them. I'd see if people would've headaches and go put a finger on it. Right? On the point of it hurt. But now this is, where'd it come from? I don't know. I'm happy. I'm happy that I can do it, that I help somebody. And sometimes I think I'm bound to miss someday and see something that really didn't exist. But I never did. I never did. And I could go through a crowd of people and if they got a pain, I can see it, take it away. What's the procedure? I don't know. But the thing is that you just do it. You do it because it helps. It helps. And you don't charge. You don't charge. I mean, I'm happy. That's good enough for me. The fact that when it happens, that's

Speaker 3

sn5-29:20

Running out of time.

Speaker 2

sn5-29:26

People still have questions free perhaps talk

Speaker 1

sn5-29:30

Down front. We're out. We'll throw us out here. We throw it out. Do you? Well, we got plenty of time to hit the door. Feel free to. Sure.

Speaker 2

sn5-29:48

Also, Mr. Rose speaking at Chapel Hill on Wednesday night. Yes. Out on the table this coming Wednesday. Okay.

=== File sn6 ===
NOTE: Files 5 and 6 were spliced together. 25 + 5 = 30 minutes total. File 6 = 5 minutes** see below. I was amazed by it.

== Footnotes ==

== End ==
</div>

1993-1101-NC-State-University-Raleigh-November

2026-01-04T06:33:58Z

Dmadmin: Pate Auto-AI first pass

{{Page header}}
[[Category:1990s]]
[[Category:North Carolina]]
[[Category:Has Talk Page]]
<div id="widthlimiter">
== Data Template ==

{{Recording Data
|record-date = Nov. 11, 1993
|location = NC-State-University-Raleigh
|number-tapes = 3 cassettes: Tape 1 (side 1 = 32 minutes; side 2 = 32 minutes)
Tape 1 (side 3 = 32 minutes; side 4 = 31 minutes)
Tape 3 (side 5 = 32 minutes; side 6 = xx minutes)

|source =
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s = 6 including introduction, file #0
On first pass there were files 0 thru 6 = 7 files.
See notes below: Files 5 and 6 were spliced together, so 0 thru 5 = six files

|total-time =
|transcription-status = Auto-AI was Nov 19, 2025, pasted here on Jan 4, 2026
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf =
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks =
|audio-quality = Audio quality mostly good. Side 5 and 6 are muddy (timbre of voice, RR says he has a cold).

|who-is-present = George, Shawn (?), Bart
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

== To Do ==

== Notes ==
SEE TALK PAGE

Same as video of same date?

Is video the same as the Mr Rose video, supposedly from 1991?

File sn0 -- 5:40

File sn1 -- 25:43

File sn2 -- 31:41

File sn3 -- 31:23

File sn4 -- 30:29

File sn5 -- 30:04
First 7 minutes is repeat of last 7 minutes of side 4. Deleted from mp3 file #5. File 5 – 25 minutes** see below..
== Transcription ==

=== File sn0 ===
Time: 5:40

Speaker 1

sn0-00:00

George Buehler: At the Zen Master. Some of you may have attended that lecture in the past, and it caught my attention immediately, firstly, because, well, OG tells some amazing stories. He told some stories about an old man in West Virginia who just happened to be a zen master and the most unlikely zen master since he was an American, was born, raised in West Virginia, was not into beads and robes, and most of the other things you might associate with the whole word Zen. Instead, he told a story about a man who had spent his life in a relentless search for the truth, and a man who after years of searching, had finally found it in an experience that culminated in what the Eastern philosophies like Zen referred to as enlightenment or satori.

sn0-01:00

It's an experience that many religious traditions recognize, and it's essentially the answer to the big questions. Now, I was very interested at this point because I was a freshman and like most freshmen, I was trying to figure out what to do with my life, and this seemed like the perfect opportunity because most Zen masters you might hear of, tend to be in books, tend to be dead, tend to be a long way away, and also very Eastern and esoteric and difficult to understand. And Mr. Rose was none of these things. He was alive, he was in driving distance, and he was very western, very easy to understand, at least from what I'd heard. So I got to know Augie, and then later on I went up to West Virginia and met Mr. Rose, and I'm not quite sure what I was expecting to see from Mr. Rose. All I can say is that in the years I've come to know Mr. Rose, he has been outside of and beyond any expectations I could have had. There are a lot of things about Mr. Rose. I could mention his devastating sense of humor, which tends to catch a lot of people with their pants down and his totally unpretentious style of teaching, which makes it very, very western, very accessible. And he's just a very friendly man, a very easy man to get to know.

sn0-02:27

But I don't think those things really summarize or the essence of what Mr. Rose in his life has been. I think the trait that characterizes Mr. Rose also happens to be the trait that Mr. Rose feels is most essential to someone pursuing some sort of spiritual path, and that is relentless perseverance. Mr. Rose's whole life has been one long, relentless, uncompromising search for the truth at any price. His search began in his childhood when he was about 12 years old. He joined a Capuchin monastery in Pennsylvania because he wanted to get nearest to those people. He was led to believe, had some answers, and if these folks knew God well, that's the folks he wanted to hang around with. He got his education there and spent, I don't know, about five years there. Eventually he left because he became convinced that the monks there knew no more about God than he did and had no privileged information.

sn0-03:29

From there, he went on to any source that seemed to have any kind of promise for giving answers. He went to college, studied physics and chemistry, and tried to find an answer perhaps through a materialistic approach. Later on, he found out that had flaws since the materialistic paradigm tends to be really good at cataloging things, but not all that good at explaining why things are or what your life should be. From there, he went on to all sorts of esoteric traditions. He went through spiritualism, yoga, Zen, anything he could find that held some promise of giving a direct answer to these kinds of questions. And it was only after intense years of seeking that he finally came to an answer. And since then, rose has taken all of that persevering dynamic energy and turned it towards trying to help other people. When he was seeking, he made a promise because he met so many hucksters, so many people who had partial truths or were just trying to fleece people, take advantage of people who were honestly searching for answers.

sn0-04:39

He met so much of those hucksters in his seeking that he promised if he ever found anything genuine, if he ever found something he could share, he would share it with people and share it at no cost and whatever price. So long as people would listen, he would talk to people. So in doing that, he's written a number of books. He's written the Algin papers, the Direct Mind experience, and the Psychology, the Observer amongst other books, and he's opened up his life to anyone who care to come check him out. He's donated 186 acre farm to the use of the TAT Foundation, which is a national organization that he helped to start to encourage people to search for answers for themselves and to take this quest in earnest. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce Mr. Richard Rose.

=== File sn1 ===
Time: 25:43

Speaker 1

sn1-00:00

R: Well, I think he's about covered it. We might as well go home.

It is pretty difficult to give you a picture, a real picture of Zen, but I do want to talk about it a little because it's not talked about much. And I had found a Zen teacher. I didn't go to Tibet, I've never been out of the country, but I found this fellow in New York City and I was kind of surprised he'd been referred to me as a teacher of Zen and I corresponded with him for a couple years. You pick up things. There was never any statistics or anything like that given any history of Zen. He went right to work on the business of sorting reality from garbage or sorting the truth from, let's say, making a racket out of the education that zen is. So I must admit that I knew he had a teacher that was in this country also. He worked without fee. There was absolutely no, and you build a certain superstition about money after a while. I don't believe that.

sn1-02:03

First of all, I don't believe in violating friendship. And when you're standing up talking to somebody or you're talking to them over a period of years, you can't play the huckster. You face the truth and possibly state the truth if that helps a person understand anything, whether his reason for being here and his inability to leave here or do something with his life that he wouldn't be satisfied with. So I got quite acquainted with the Tibetan form of Buddhism and Zen as well. And it was nothing more than a perpetual persistent questioning of yourself, whether you're real or not, or whether you have something that somebody else might want to hear. But the main thing is to find the truth. The truth isn't something that you get by somebody giving you a third degree. This is something you listen to all the isms that exist and try to find if there is any of them that has the truth in it.

sn1-03:32

And when if you dig, dig far enough while you find out that there's always a little bit of ality, I wouldn't say what's happening in Tibet, whether I suspected even in Tibet, there's ality, but not necessarily among the people who were following a zen mind. And so consequently, you get whatever books you can get your hands on to determine if there is an immortal soul. And it's worth chasing trying to find out and the process of which you have to read a lot of perhaps spiritual literature. But there's another way. There's another way. If for instance, I've went through all the sacred books of religion and I came away with no assurance that I had any proof that this stuff was real. See down goes through translations, and some of it may be deliberately a setup. So as when you progress into this, the more you focus on it, the more you become something and you get surprises along the road.

sn1-04:58

A person I've heard stories, for instance, I dunno if you've ever heard of iff, was I considered the first psychologist, psychiatrist, or whatever you want to call him from Europe. He had a profound view of the human mind and he examined the movements over in Asia also. And some of the people that wanted to find the truth, the answer to life and death were placed in a cell and they were handed a loaf of bread once a day and they stayed there until they found the answer. And good many of 'em died there. And he would say they'd pull the carcass out and scraped the floors and scrubbed the floors and put somebody else in place because this is how serious it is to find the truth because too much depends on it. And we are always disappointed with our lifestyle. No matter what you do. Somewhere down along the line you'll find that you miss something or you fool yourself. And this is socially, philosophically as well. So the thing is, is to get a means of checking stuff out. Don't accept it until you can check it out to your satisfaction. Now, there are exercises you can practice reading books and that sort of thing to get your mind on a certain subject. But what happens, there's kind of a little added benefit as you go along. And that is you find gifts.

sn1-06:56

Things happen to you that are favorable is what I'm saying. And little by little you get an idea that you're getting fed some information, valuable information, it comes about slowly. At least it did for me. I can't speak for everybody. And this is something happens that proves to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're not going to die. And in other words, you make the trip and return. This is one of the things that happens. The other one is that of course, that you have certain faculties, and I don't think that they're germane to the health of a person or anything like that. There's no reason why except that you can do things and you may not know why at the time you don't know the procedure. In other words, people can become healed and they can say, it came from this or that, it come from God almighty, or it came from a doctor's formula or they want to say.

sn1-08:07

But if people can be healed, and this is the principle of this shocking people into spiritual knowledge, you just don't dream about it. You just don't join a group of people and they all get together and chant. We know it all. Say each individual has to work by himself and fight it through. And the biggest part of the time, if you're not persistent, you'll think, Hey, I got to get away from this stuff because I don't have an answer. I'm not getting the answers. I'm just a body that's going to die someday. And I say this after examining all the scriptures too incidentally, it's possible you're just a body and nothing much. You're not worth much. See, and even for humanity, you're not worth much. But then one day comes along and you find out that you're real. And possibly, I can't say forever, but I do know that people survive death, at least certain people do. And then there's, I would, of course, I want to keep on the target here today, but sometime I'd like to be in a position where I could show you the ability to find illnesses and take them away.

sn1-09:43

This has nothing to do with zen, but it has to do in the pursuit of knowledge and truth, things come along that you don't ask for. And what the reason for it. I don't argue. It's possible that it gives us an impetus then to say, oh, this is wonderful. Let's get in deeper. Let's go for the big answers, or let's see how far we can carry this in the decision whether you're immortal or not. And the next thing is that you'll find that you can affect things. Now, again, I don't know. I have no assurance that this stuff is taught in Tibet. All I know about Tibet is that they have a shock system that you either focus on what you want and get it, or you stay in that cell and rot and shovel you out. So that is an accomplishment if the guy breaks through. Of course, I don't have any, no way I have any contact with the statistics of Tibet, but I do know that people went over there like Ger and found out that it's a rough deal. I mean, you don't play around with it. You can't bribe them. You can't bribe anybody. Even if you could, it wouldn't help you. So the one thing that I would like to convey to people are these things that every person can acquire.

sn1-11:29

But I'd say you should start when you're young. And I had a drive and I was a child to, I'd heard about God and I owned a meeting, so I went to church and did everything I was told. I never met him. Well, he was in a wafer, but I couldn't find him in the wafer. They served him every day at the altar. So I got to looking into everything possible, every ism, and never was really satisfied with it. I moved to something else. There was a break occurred when I discovered that I didn't really believe any of the preachers, anyone that they really didn't know. And it was all front. So that leaves you a lonely, very lonely feeling. But I kept on, kept on. In other words, how do you awaken yourself to something that you desire? You can't just use the prayer beads over and over and over and over. That'll just drive you into a semi oblivion. You'll quit thinking after a while, but you just keep an open mind and look for books, look for people, and little things will open up. And the thing that I discovered was that we think we believe and to believe is error.

sn1-13:25

If you believe it's error. I'm tramping on some toes that believe that they should believe faith is what? You can't have faith in something that slips out of your mind as soon as you the word you and, but you dig up your own system of self approach. You look in the mirror and say, is this guy outwitting himself as he ruining his life, fooling with religion when he could be out getting married, raising kids, and paying taxes. In the process of this pursuit, doors open. Now I can't, and I say, what doors? But the doors open. When the doors open and you get the capacity to cause things, then you're on the track and it's endless. I mean, the possibilities of things are endless If you want to play with 'em. There's healing people. For some talk about healing people, to me, it can be an ego trip and a person should never do it and brag about it or charge for it.

sn1-14:53

See, and this is a thing that I've found, if you charge for it, you become obsessed with the money and you lose your ability to think or ability to cause things to happen. And of course in this process, you cause something to happen in yourself as well as things that the public might witness. See? Well, so the only thing, I can't prove this, I can't draw pictures for you, but I'm trying to think how old I was at the time. I was 30 years old and I went out to Seattle to go to Washington, decided I'd get married. I knew a girl out there. So I went out to marry her. And of course after I got there, I discovered that she was a lesbian. And I made a jackass out of myself by making that trip because I didn't intend to live with a lesbian or her girlfriend, either one.

sn1-16:06

So I thought, well, I'll get out of here. And I went down. I got a room in some Chinese rooming house there. It was pretty reasonable. So I thought, oh, I'll get down to the library and see if I can get any good books out of the library. And I'll get back to my daily meditation. And there's another thing. You don't go through a routine of so many hours meditation a day. You do it until you get tired of doing it. You get tired of doing it. Take a rest, quit, get back to it because you'll always be hungry for the results. You'll see that there's a change occurring. So I was real free. I thought, this is wonderful. I thought I really made an ass on myself. And so I would come in and I got a job working nightclub there, and I'd come back and I'd sit on the bed and read Blavatsky or any books I'd get my hands on. And it was peaceful. So it went on for a while, and one day I was sitting in the bed and I got a pain in my head and the pain was such that I was convinced I would outlive. It was just I passed out in other words and knocked me out.

sn1-17:37

Well, I walked over to the window and looked out the window and I could see the cascade mountains, and I thought it was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen, and I would like to explore them while I'm out here. I went through the window and went over the city and landed there on the cascade that hilltop, so to speak, a strange thing. I got to admit this. There was no snow when I got there. And I looked through the window, I could see the snow, but there was no snow when I got there. And I realized I was dead, that I knew that my body had to be back there in the hotel room. So I thought, Jesus a beautiful place, but nobody's here but me. And I thought to myself, I'd really like to see some of the people on earth. And at that time when that happened, some, I don't know how it was arranged, but people came up the sides of the hill and they didn't talk. They didn't talk. And I didn't see anybody I knew. But it, it seemed that when I wished for something, something happened and I got the idea they weren't going to show. There was no snow there either. But anyhow, I thought, what was it I wanted?

sn1-19:09

Oh, I'm trying to think of what caused me to come back. Oh, I've been saying to myself when it went up, this is everything. Everything's here. And that's part of the happiness. And then I thought to myself, what is nothingness? In other words, I gave nothingness a quantity or a characteristic of measurement. What is nothingness? And when I thought that, I fell off the edge of a cliff and I thought, I went through blackness and I thought, well, when I hit the bottom, I'll be dead. When I hit the bottom his bed, I come to in the lying in the bed.

sn1-20:01

And of course I got up and decided to leave. Seattle was as quick as possible. And I got a bus ticket and headed for back, for made up my mind to go to Cleveland first because I didn't know how crazy I looked at my family. So I thought I had a friend up there, and I'll stop at his place and see if I am still weeping. That's weeping. Quit, stop crying. And again, I don't know why there's nothing beautiful happened, but there was at the same time, there's nothing ugly having. But of course the pain from my head was gone. And so for left, I thought, I've got to have an answer to this. What's happening? I stopped. I went down. It was after dark. And I walked down the street and I saw a Catholic church and I thought, well, I'll go in there and see if there's an old priest in there.

sn1-20:59

That was what kind of a psychic sickness I got. See? So I knocked on the door and some guy about six feet tall, looked like he could have been a football player and a big sturdy young guy. And he looks down at me like I'm a bug. And he says, what could I do for you? I just looked around. But I says, aren't there some older priests here? I'd like to talk to an older priest. What makes you think you can do what I can do? Get on top of me that moment. This was a healing process. I was no more passive. I wanted to kill him if I had a gun. And I'd shoot him because for his arrogance, I'd come to ask him a sacred question. I'm in trouble and I need an answer. See? And this guy want to know why I didn't go to confession?

sn1-21:50

Well, of course, no matter where it is, it's unnecessary confession. You confess to yourself. But if you face yourself or you'll try to correct it, if you confess it to somebody else, you might say, oh, I want to get rid of that. I'll confess it. Let see. And so consequently, if you got confessions to make them to yourself and change your ways, that's all. So things run correctly and more smoothly. But anyhow, I got out of Seattle and I came back down and that's when I made up my mind that I would get to the bottom of this. I didn't know what happened. I knew that I died. I knew I dead. I I've even conceived of why wasn't God there? Why didn't I meet somebody in the church? You get the story that the angels will visit you or something like that. I didn't see any angels.

sn1-22:57

I did know that there's a creative ability to, a desire at this thing. In other words, what I saw, I saw a lot of people, but I don't know what they were. Phonies just, it appeared because I wanted to appear. None of them talked to me or something. So I got back and I visited a friend of mine up there and him and his wife, I went in and I was telling him about the experience and I said, what do you make of it? And what he said was, rose, I love you. Will you marry me?

sn1-23:43

And he didn't know what to say to show his concern. He knew something what I'd gone through when I got through talking to him. But his wife, of course had another view and she says, Dick, I think you lost your ego. They were both possibly right? But anyhow, from that time on, I decided to get to the bottom of this to get the truth of the matter, find out what there is about the immortality. And I felt that I had died and had some view of it. So consequently, I didn't worry about total destruction. What the average person worries about is that there may not be any consciousness after unconsciousness. You may never wake up. See, and that of course becomes a burden. And I don't think you should just take a burden and sit with it. I think if you want to be spiritual, you fight it out. You fight it out, you spend time meditating or experimenting or whatever's necessary.

sn1-24:56

But anyhow, I start making notes. I start to a contracting business. So I would have some money to eat on. And I bought a farm so I could hide. I got a farm down there, so it was way back in the woods so I could be left alone. And I start writing, I right, come home from work, I'd make notes. And that was the beginning of the first book I wrote. That was the Albigen papers. And people would read it and they'd get interested. And the result is that, that's me being here is one of the things. If I start talking at universities and people came.

=== File sn2 ===
Time: 31:41

Speaker 1
sn2-00:00

Of course, it was one stage, the one stage where a lot of them, they were just dying to get into a place where they could smoke pot. And so they'd pretend to be interested in spirituality. Well, I left them, pretend I didn't demand they leave, but I didn't pay too much attention to 'em. Now that started in the late sixties and in 72 we officially set up an organization called TAT because you can't have things too loose. Nobody does anything. But what I discovered from it along the road was certain openings, certain little miracles if you want to call 'em that. And I was surprised. I was always been surprised by it. And I wish that in a way that the setting here had time for this.

sn2-01:07

I would show you, for instance, some of the things that can be done, but I don't want to take too much time at it. Maybe half of the evening. Well, people came down and quite a few of 'em wanted to amount to something on the esoteric level, but one by one they drifted away and other people drifted in and there was no great sages or anything like that emanated from it. But the fact was that they did. They read my books and I think that changed possibly a little bit and not a great revolution, but that's what's going on ever since then. And I get an opportunity to talk, I'd always go and it got it become 90% of my time practically, I lectured. I lived just in the panhandle, West Virginia. So I drove up to Pittsburgh and we had groups established. Somebody go off and they'd go to college or something like that and they'd start a group up in their area. So I got nothing done. But run between them, giving talks and encouraging people to look for their own definition. This is what it is. We don't know ourselves. We can't be self-defined. You have to try to be self-defined and eventually why? If you got enough good friends that don't tell you when you're making a mistake, that helps.

sn2-02:55

Well, so I've got some notes I want to talk about. The first question here is, where is the truth to be found? In the words of saints, in the discoveries of searching of the men in diverse stages of life, perhaps we need not die to understand the abilities of the human mind. There's a whole thing that if you can see changes in your own lifetime or in a few, not a lifetime necessarily, but sometime in your life, then there's hope that you can look further. It's like you go out hunting and it surprises you what you find.

sn2-04:02

Do we know the mind? Students of mysticism are often surprised by the discover of magical mental abilities, such as the ability to see x-ray vision. There was an article written up on that in a world magazine, and I got other discovering these instances and I became amazed. The power of the human mind. There was a man by the name of Joe S from Michigan. He wrote a little book of his own and he lived from 1877 to 1944. Joseph Sadonyy could cause it the lightning and not. That means the whole lobby, don't take the lightning home with us. You just see it. But regardless, it's unusual. So what happens? It's worthwhile that you take that. How did he do it? How does he do it? Why is this? It create lightning. He would count 1, 2, 3, and point lightning strike.

sn2-05:19

He decided that he would look into the stock market. So people encouraged him to tell him which stocks they should buy that was going get bigger worth more. And something happened. Something happened that he was trying to force something across. I don't remember exactly what it is, but he got ego. And when he got egos, the power left him for a year to the day just it seemed like there was a consciousness that was watching him and he was in fact, in that year of time, a year's time, he couldn't heal anybody. He'd be healing people. So from these reports, you get an idea of what something is going on that we haven't covered.

sn2-06:33

The mind of man has not reached a true knowledge of the human mind, of the individual's mental capacities. We don't. This is one thing we should realize. I think it's a shortcut. I mean, you can go out and search for the truth and if you continue you're sincere and dynamic, you just push and push. I say something will crack open. I don't believe in believing though what I'm saying now. I don't ask you to believe it. I think sometimes if a person gets, I've seen people thought they could see somebody heal somebody and they make certain motions or something of that sort and they go imitate it. Nothing happened because first of all, they had still had their ego too much, I think is one thing. It slowed it down. And the other thing was that they weren't sincere. They were just trying to attract attention.

sn2-07:40

The psychics seer does not divulge his method, that the healer does not explain his expertise so that the miracles are seldom learned by honest searchers. And I think it is not necessary. I think you can get the idea, get an idea of this, and some way down the road you begin with small things that you can cause to happen. And Sadony as I said, could cause lightning. And he would point his finger and count to three. And at three the lightning would strike. Now this is interesting. He's, his name is Sadony. I don't know his first name. One of the boys in our group went up to his place in Michigan, and of course he was dead. His son was 70 years old and he brought back one of Sadony's books. The son didn't know too much about his ability to create lightning, but he did accurately predict something on the stock market, which he said is what he lost his power because of it. He was greed. He went to help somebody else be greedy or something like that. So he kept away from the stock market after that. But I really do believe the man had a power, for instance, healing. I don't know the mechanics of it. I just know that these things happen. And if we're interested in the human mind, it's easy to say, oh, that's nonsense. He read that in the book someplace.

sn2-09:33

You start looking and you'll find it. You look in the Bible, you'll find instances of it. For instance, Christ was doing some function on what it was and talking to some people and a woman crept up behind him. I don't know if you remember this, if you've read the Bible, she was troubled with an issue of blood is what the Bible said. And she was desperately wanting to be healed. And she thought if she could just touch him, she would be healed. So she touched him and he immediately said to one of his or several of his disciples that were there, he said, someone touched me.

sn2-10:21

I felt my, what was the word he used? Virtue. Virtue. I felt my who said that? Yeah, he's heard it before. But the thing was you take this, you take this and what's it mean? It's simple. When somebody taps you, your virtue leaves your ability, your psychic and mental abilities leave because if you dissipate or lose energy from dissipation, your brain won't act the same the next hour or the next day. Too much dissipation. The man gets foggy. So this is what happened. This is a vital, there's something vital that permeated the body of Christ and also permeates every human being. And the ideas of course, that you don't play with it. You don't go out and do it to show off or you don't do it for money or you don't do it just for the expertise. And so little by little you get an idea that there is a mental, the place we live in as well as the physical place we live in, and the mental still is more powerful than the physical or the healings wouldn't occur. So you take that and you get down the line of realizations. Well, the first realization that you have is that there's possible to survive. And then after that, it's the function of helping someone else. Now there's a kind of a law. This is a law of sorts.

sn2-12:28

I remember a case of a person that was, well, there's accounts in the Bible, but I remember a case of a person that healed somebody and it surprised him. He didn't expect it. And I don't believe that anybody that does this, you don't do it with the conviction that you're going to lay a big egg. You have to see what, just say, wait and see what happens. There's no motion, there's no greed, there's no pitch for benefit of other people's information or anything like that. And what I'm getting at is these little things that you learn and become part of you when you desire to find out if you're immortal or not, your mind is ready to take on the problem, but you have to be been focused on something esoteric or something that magically affected the material body or the material. Was it something like lightning?

sn2-13:50

See, I know a lot of you'll feel like laughing and say that's it's a hot one, but don't happen. But he had witnesses and of course he made the mistake of predicting for one of his friends something on the stock market, and he lost for a solid year to the day he lost his ability. And I can understand because he reneged on his own, he had found a method of holding his head and focusing his head, and he played with it and it just left. Now, how many other forces are beyond that? I don't pretend to know, but I'm trying to get you to look for these incidents and reading when you're reading literature or biographies or something or to watch people, all animals operate intuitionally as well as people.

sn2-14:55

In other words, especially domesticated animals. We prefer to call this faculty instinct. That's a loose word we have for say the dog or the cat has developed instinct. All animals react logically or they couldn't be trained. Of course there's some animals can't be trained. Intuition might be called an instantaneous computerization in that it seems to sort out in a flash and judge and act from all the data of the person's life. History and more intuition may also involve ESP abilities and information from the dimensions, from other dimensions, from DNA and archetypal memory. The young was an exponent of such deep memory tapping, if you want to look into Young's books for book I, how many he wrote, the hearing of warning voices in the head are later corroborated with messages omens and seeing illogical reactions or compulsions as a result of such omens, which are later vindicated and justified.

sn2-16:44

The exclamation of a polonius of Tiana, I dunno if you've ever heard of the fellow or not, it was way back there, but a polonius was standing on a street corner and somebody walked up to him and he shouted, strike hit him again, killing. And this fellow said, Hey, what are you talking about? He says that the emperor's just been murdered. Now he was miles away. There was no transportation, there was no gasoline motors. And so in some following days or weeks, he found out that at that moment the emperor had been stabbed and killed.

sn2-17:24

Now, I'm going through this stuff because I think everybody here is bound to run cases of phenomena that are really striking and true. They come true. Now with this in mind is where we build our own source of miraculous is the pursuit of lifestyle, of rigorous morality in the face of no good reason for such or proof of the benefit it that you get for acting a larger section of the population. Believe that you bring down luck on you. That is the point that we're after. But we examined deja vu experiences to examine the intuition of knowledge of deaths in the family. A lot of this happens. Examine dreams that are precognitive. Why are they precognitive? And the fact that they can be precognitive means that this is something that we can use. We can don't just come back and say, isn't that strange or miraculous or something like that. But you find that you can adapt your own mind to the same situation that that person is that says, strike him again. You'll be able to pick up the fact that the emperor died as well as that man.

sn2-19:06

Now why all this? Why do we want to find talents for this thing? Because of simple fact, we're dealing with an abstraction. And the abstraction are things like the word God, the things death. We don't really define death. Does it mean that we quit breathing, lose consciousness and rot, or does it mean that we lose a body and gain another place to explore floor? The intuition leads us to believe and act before even a minimum of data is in. This happens a lot with people. What I'm saying, don't discourage it. Some people say, Hey, don't say that. Maybe it'll happen. Maybe it'll bring us bad luck or something if you're not evil. But if you're not trying to do something to damage people, it's not going to hurt anybody. Religion leads us to believe before the data is in. And by religion I mean all forms of transcendental belief about man's inner self, his soul or God, all of which remain unidentified. We have never identified a soul. We have never identified a God, but we believe, see, but that which religion impulsively postulates, science laboriously validates. This is something you'll find about esoteric philosophy. Science is validating spiritual beliefs down the road, sometimes decades or centuries after the original postulation is issued.

sn2-21:09

On the other hand, science or psychology are helpless without inspirational conceptions, a psychologist is not much good if he doesn't have any intuition. And I've spent a lot of time in studying psychology. Psychology and material sciences are so restricted and constricted that they dare not explore except in an orderly fashion and orderly manner in such orderliness will only prolong specializations. Now I'm going to mention a case that happened in this respect. I worked years back on the atomic submarine in Akron, Ohio, and we had a fellow there that was, he wasn't a graduate engineer or anything like that, but to move submarine to propel the submarine, they used a thing called k and a and they couldn't run water through the boilers because it was heated by, they got extremely hot. And I don't know what you, oh, I'll tell you what they used. It was a type of, what is it?

sn2-23:03

It was an atomic. It was an atomic heater, but it got the water so hot that there was an inclination to blow the sides out of the submarine or out of the tank. So the heat was terrific. So what they did is they used K and a sodium and potassium combination and pumped it through the tubes and they didn't explode. The water would explode, but the K and A wouldn't. So they could pump that over into the tank of water. In other words, they didn't have anything in the tube, the veins or the tubes to blow up. Well, they put the thing together and they decided that the K and a had to be pumped, circulated. Well, they put it in a pump. And of course pumps, most pumps have packing in them to keep the stuff from running out around the ends of the pump.

sn2-24:15

And that was grease and the K and A exploded to grease. So this ra just figured it out from common sense. They were a dead standstill. They didn't know that it was going to be able to find a way of running the motors on the submarines. And he said, run the k and a through the motor. See what happens. So in other words, they didn't have to have bearings and all that stuff. And the grease in them would catch the K and a would blow up the grease. In other words, the K and A would, you'd put a drop of water and it explodes it and they took the insides out of the pump or they didn't take 'em out, but they just ran the k and a right through it instead of on a leverage basis. In other words, they couldn't run it through a pump and they had to have it pumped.

sn2-25:14

So when they took out the stuff that had to be greased about the pump and just pass it through, they were doing it in business. Now this man, I was surprised about him because he had an unusual mentality. And I used, used to ride home with him a carpool and I'd ride home with him and one of the very patient people, because I was relentless. I wanted to find out this intuition. Where did he get this intuition from? He didn't know. He didn't know. I never forget one time he made him remark. He said, faith will move mountains. I said, I don't believe you. And he said, why not? I said, because the people on the other side of the mountain don't believe they're going to get hit with a mountain of dirt.

sn2-26:07

We torture each other going home from work. But I'm trying to get the thing across you that I don't think if you read in literature sometimes you run across some of these cases of unusual, what they call apprehension. You apprehend it. There's something here. And this now culminates in you finding a path. You find a path of spiritual action and you have a discovery path too. Just discovered something and aided the pumping of k and A. Then of course there's a, if we're going to get hunches or communication, nobody, nobody has ever said, but God tell us, or let's say some prayers and maybe it'll appear on a piece of paper or something of that sort.

sn2-27:13

The human mind is capable of picking things up and changing them. And it starts, the realization of it is very small in the beginning, but as time goes on, larger phenomena can be exercised. You find it happens in larger fields. And so I, I've seen this happen where a person, a man would cup his hand on a person's head when they had a headache and lift it away and the headache would be gone instantaneously. And this was for pains, almost any place in the body. And then I discovered that they could see them. They could see them, and this fellow used to walk up and point to the headache and he'd ask him, you have a headache, don't you see? Yeah. And he'd point to it, then he'd cup his hands over their head and take it away. Now this is not scientific. So this is what I'm trying to get.

sn2-28:27

I'm trying to show that there are a lot of things that aren't scientific. I often think about the fellow that pointed at lightning happened. After a while you get things happen and you can't quite rule things out. Especially when a bunch of people seen it, seen it happen. It'd be impossible for him to fake it because he don't know when. It's going to be nice if he could know just when lightning was going to happen at any points and make him look good. But what I'm getting at is we do not spend the necessary time to study the human mind. But with some people, those things happen automatically. And those are the instances. If it's possible to find the formula, you've got to talk to them. That's all. And I know the man that can see the headaches, but I won't tell you who he is. You might know him

Speaker 2
sn2-29:30

Well, where are we?

Speaker 1

sn2-29:40

I want to get in. This is a little, this sounds like something. Classwork. I've got the list of the, what I call visions, perception visions. Number one is normal sensory perception. We have many ways of perceiving normal sensory perception. We look as I see my glasses. I see that's normal. Number two, add normal sensory perceptions. These are visions apparently seen by the eye or the sensory organ, which will later prove to be invalid or illusory like a nightmare. Three mental visions or projections. That's a classification. And we conjure up an apple with diamonds embedded into it and you can see it. I use that as an example.

sn2-30:42

If I say apple, you've got a picture of me. If it's a green apple, maybe it's a red apple, but that picture's there, you can also conjure up an apple and put diamonds in the side of it. See what I'm saying is this is projecting something with the mind. Fourth visions without projection. This is like intuition. You have visions or intuition, visions or sight. You call it a sight. Visions of mental processes, meaning introspection, it's as simple as that. You watch your own processes and what I'm saying is these things we should do. Everyone should watch their processes and not be fooled or deliberate. Mental projection. Now this is, there's cases available on this. They cause things by projecting them, they cause them to exist.

=== File sn3 ===
Time: 21:23

Speaker 1

sn3-00:00

Things that they were able to see. They were called topa and they also could do the Indian rope trick and cause a rope to go up in the air like a snake. And healing at a distance is another one. Psychokinesis perception without a body perception, without a body is, in other words, if you're the incident that I saw when my body was laying in bed, that's what made me put that in the catalog. I saw things that I confirmed when I recovered, so I didn't have a body, I wasn't seeing him with my eyes. My eyes was shot. My eyes was over and laying in the bed, what I was looking at was something else and there was some interior characteristic.

sn3-01:15

What is the basis of all human relationship and of all mechanical and spiritual work? Is it not the truth? The truth is what we're after. This is the relationship that we need on all this work, business, family and other contacts involving trust. Even the sexual relationship, will it endure if the partner lies and lies to cover up unfaithfulness? Can we ever trust our spiritual teacher if they lie to us or refrain from truthful? Meaning it's reasoning to me, can a person become the truth? There's a quotation about that. It says I am the way, the light truth and the light or something of that sort. He made a positive statement. He wasn't, didn't have it, but he wasn't. So consequently, I think that the translation of that, if it inferred that his body, his eyes saw even though he didn't know his eyes, could see it, could see something and be spiritual.

sn3-02:26

Can a person become the truth? Now this is the whole thing in a nutshell. You don't learn the truth, you become it, and the result, the way you become it is your lifestyle has to change. So that until it does become that, and of course the whole thing is that I don't say that you got internal revenue, guy comes around and said how much you make? I've lied to him, but I don't consider that lying because he's a racketeer of Cs. He go pick my pockets. But regardless, it's you lie to yourself is what follows you up. For sure. So I've got a list of these. I don't know how many of 'em you'll remember later because the most important thing is that I feel is to get as much before a person is possible. That it shows very clearly that we don't think that everybody thinks that we're capable of mastering a science or something of that sort.

sn3-03:52

And so what we have is reactions and of course what we try to do is get reactions that will be more harmless. I've got a list of questions now. Provokable thinking if possible, what do you know for sure? Does a man own a house or does a house own him? Does a man have power or is he overpowered a predator or a victim or both? Does a man enjoy or is he consumed? Sometimes they think they're enjoying things, but it's really consuming them. Does a man really reason or is he so programmed? Can a man learn that which he really wishes to by himself alone?

sn3-04:43

Can a man become, what do we mean by become? In other words, what do we mean by somebody becoming what? But I think, I mean if you realize a little bit that we change and that's the becoming, can a man become, how shall he know what he should become? Well, you have to dpe that out. What's important in your spiritual life? That's what you become. Why build an hills before knowing what an aunt is? I'm talking about houses. Why do we build conceptual towers of bebo about human thinking before we know that? Which thought is now, where's the domain of thought? It's psychology. They don't know what thought is. I spent a lot of time majoring in psychology. How can we dare to define thought before the knowing the source and cause of all thought? Where does it come from or the essence of thought?

sn3-05:43

You go back in the essence of thought, is this synaptic or is this plasmic? Where does the thought come from? And if it's a synaptic, is it caused by the prostaglandins or some other chemistry? When we describe bouncing, do you describe the striking object or that which is struck is thought. The process of bouncing or the object struck everything struck reacts with an opposite equal force. Can you start thinking this is something you can't start thinking and you can't stop thinking. You can wish that you had started thinking, but you're already that wish is thinking. See, in other words, I believe that the whole field of psychology is one big scam.

sn3-06:51

They just name words for certain mental faculties and it takes us nowhere is thought, something received or something projected. Some people project their thoughts, which people say that at least meaning all thoughts is thought a sort of somatic emanation coming from the body. Do we think or are we forced to think? Can we escape thinking? Try it. Sometime you are thinking about something you want to quit is negative thinking as commonly discussed, negative to man or negative to nature. We always talk about negative, don't think negatively, and of course then we should think why not See, why should we be positive all the time?

sn3-07:47

Does the brain generate thought like a radio generates a message? Comments from its speaker is thought limited to the brain? We never stop to think of this thinking process might be outside the head or the resolution of a thinking process. It might be outside the head and even to the point where somebody else picks it up. I've had people say, I know what you're thinking and they tell you what you're thinking. It's unusual, but I know people do that. There's people to do it. When a tree bends over and does it create wind by waving its branches, what are you doing for certain and what is done to you is what? The point is we cannot see the wind. What is telepathy? Does thought travel beyond the head? Does only the head think what does the vehicle for thought travel? We have no reassurance that all this thinking goes on in our head. It could be six inches behind our head perhaps.

sn3-08:56

Does the body manufacture thoughts or does the body only serve as a conduit? Where in the body are thoughts received during telepathy? When you're picking somebody up on telepathy, what kind of a thought is that that seep out of his head and seep into your head? See, we never think to question these things. What's going on in certain mental situations and where are they sent? Where are the thoughts sent? Do chemicals such as serotonin and other new road transmitters create thought or do they merely facilitate the penetration into our consciousness of strictly sensory data? Let me have to think on that a minute. See, where will the answer to this question? Lead us Multidimensional contacts, telepathy lead us to telepathy or communication with the dead because the thought is not limited the head, so therefore it can travel most any place. And of course you get these cases where a person has a vision of a friend of his a thousand miles away sitting in front of his fireplace and he calls him up and he says, were you sitting in front of your fireplace? And the guy said, yeah, you know that he saw he has the image. You'll read of this stuff at some time or other people have even tested it at a distance. Tested tele telepathy at a distance.

sn3-10:41

How many four hours did we spend analyzing our thought presses processes? Now this is of course as a point which is we were talking about mental discovery and spiritual discovery. This is important. We should think about it. You can't just read about it and then take the page and say, well, here's how we'll create thought or explain thought. Is it important to observe our reactions, thought reactions? Are we only a body or some of the people think that we're there's no spirit, no soul, just a body. Okay, so the questions there. In other words, what we should do if we're good scientists, find out if we're only a body and what part of that body is the seed of life? We can cut off an arm or leg or cut out and replace lungs, heart, kidneys, and still live, but life was in those pieces.

sn3-11:47

We can have our nervous system severed at the neck with paralysis except in the head and still live and think we can remain unconscious for years while the body continues to live. Noting that a person who is brain dead according to medical instruments can continue to live, breathe at times, recover and function consciously. These things infer that there's some complexity that we never give a thought to. We hear the cases, but we never give a thought and never say, how did it happen? Why did he wake up 10 years later and say, Hey, give me a beer or something. Do we think or imagine we think is our thinking automatic? We can't help it. We have to think that may be the case in some instances. I don't know. Do not. Our thoughts come before we have time to replace them. When we decide to search for the source of thought, why do we be become mentally wary or find our thoughts, becoming able to find objective or describable distractions but unable to describe name or systematize, the progression, origins or duration of a thought process. We just have never got down to measuring the thought process.

sn3-13:07

Is man only a blob of protoplasm which is programmed to react according to a schedule or is he a free agent? Ines, I get there. I'm talking about conditioned reflexes. I hear a lot about say, I don't know how accurate that is. Is he a blob of protoplasm or is he free? Our thoughts? Likewise, only reflexes from programmed or calculated stimuli. Who programmed? Who stimulated? In other words, we got this little thing called temptation, and these are, you might say for some people they're calculated stimuli and other people they're not. They just overwhelm them. What is thought? Can we observe our thoughts? If we observe our thoughts? Who is looking? What kind of a creature can see thoughts when we observe our thoughts? Are we not thinking about thinking? Is such a thinker? Someone who dreams of yesterday thinking he watches a dreamer or is he a detached watcher of past and present thoughts? Who is awake and aware of the mechanical man or basically mechanical men? And this is one of the things we have to do, be less mechanical.

sn3-14:31

What are we an animated body and a suppressed, stagnated soul? Do we have a mind or are we mind stuck? Or are we a programmed body in mind? Do we actually know that which we are doing? If so, why do we regret things we do? Does the meone insect animal or man know why it reproduces? And anybody here, you can ask that question to yourself. Why do you reproduce? There's no good reason for it. You bring children into the world to die and if you don't bring 'em in, there'll be less deaths. Does the meta zone insect, animal or man know why it reproduces?

sn3-15:27

I think this is really something everyone should try to discover. Find out why do we reproduce? Why are we obsessed for? Is that what all we're here for? Is this to produce another creature? Does the tree create wind by waving its branches or is it always moved by external forces? That's a weird way of pointing it out, but the reason I ask that is because we don't know. We can't prove why a branches move on a tree and it could be that the tree's waving and causing the wind. We never stopped to think of the possibilities, but in other words, there's a lot of things in life that we have explanations for, but we don't bother to stick with it long enough to get a good definition. Does the person seduce another or both seduced? I dunno if you know what I mean there. They're not responsible. People are not responsible because no one asks for glands. See, but if you don't watch what your glands do, they might hang you. What does the man do besides fertilizer or is that our function on earth? That men are fertilizers of women? So we got to be candid about it. Are you a hero or a victim?

sn3-17:14

Are you loved or are you consumed? Did you ever have it happen to you? You thought you were loved and you were consumed? Do you have possessions or are you possessed by them? Which is the more evidential and apparent to you, your divinity or your animal appearance? The lover might like you but you won't necessarily. You might have an animal appearance. That's what they're attracted by. If we wish to plan our lives, do we not need to consider while planning that it may all be planned and that we have no choice? How do we plan around that possibility?

sn3-17:57

We're convinced we're doing things and it's possible that everything that we did was seen ahead of time cause and when we define our limitations, do we automatically need to define ourself is another thing. Very few people bother to look for their self. What the self is? Do we discover more accurately the nature of ourself? How much of a human action is faded or predestined? Is the knowledge of factors of any value in the face of possible predestination? If predestination exists as no sense of blaming anybody for conduct, if we're predestined to do it, that's the way we're predestined to get killed, we'll get killed for following our instinct or desires.

sn3-18:50

Is all of our reality merely a collected belief, a paradigm? Now, Chilton Pierce brought this up. Chilton Pierce was a bit of a psychologist, but the whole reality is maybe it's a collective belief or paradigm. In other words, what happened? His wife had cancer. I dunno if you know the story. It is wife had cancer and he believed that she could be relieved of the cancer if they refused to believe in answer. I don't know. The result, I guess somebody may have followed through on Chilton Pierce, I don't know if his wife died from it or not, is scientific reality. Only a progression of events planned and expedited by a mentality of cosmic or spiritual proportions which utilize the mentality, egos and energy of humans.

sn3-19:52

In other words, we don't know who's winding our clock. We don't know who's putting us on the street to walk down the street even. What is life and what is death? Are these items ever properly defined except in terms of each other? Life is not death. Death is not life. See, hooray. We never find out for sure what they are. Individually we've never defined death or have we defined life and are these items ever properly defined except in terms of each other? Can theological facts be established by voting and others? This is what they do. They get together and they decide whether one of the saints had a cousin or nap. Pope went to heaven. God, what is life? What is death? Can theological facts be established by Bodhi? Is Mary the mother of God or is humanity the mother of God?

sn3-20:55

This is one of the sayings I'm picking up stuff that people like to repeat. Is God determined by victorious armies if his army wins and he's on God's side, but getting back about this business, this is a thing in the Catholic religion is that the busted version was taken to heaven physically. She didn't leave anything behind, and so consequently she had her body and outer space. Where are the commodes? She'd have to have one. She'd have to have a place to eat or she'd starve to death, but yet they consistently imposed that thing on people's minds that she went to heaven with her body. That would be a tremendous thing to follow and find out. What happens is God determined by victorious armies is virtuous, established by psychological edict. I mean we've got a science that's running wild running amuck called psychology is virtue established by ecclesiastical vote. If enough priests or preachers get together and decides somebody's pure or holy, and that becomes a fact or by the requisites of our S essence, is it established by sce essence? What is sin?

sn3-22:38

This is something that be, a lot of people are tortured by the idea of sin, an offense against yourself, an offense against your fellow man or an offense against God. I'm doing these things just to try to straighten out thinking processes and the outcome is an offense against God recognized by divine outcry, earthquake or cosmic catastrophe. Is it a sin meat? Are the animals our brothers, are they possessive intelligence and soul? Do animals sin when they eat other animals or are such planting animals? Pardon? For keeping ecology in balance. So we got find a little virtue in them. Now, is it wrong to kill except for food? If so, do we do wrong but not eating the people we kill?

sn3-23:36

Got to get those people in the battlefield. Do something with them. See who is knowledgeable about good and the item goodness is good that which we desire or that which is in itself good. What is the condition of being in itself good? Is evil the child of good or is it a twin? We got goodness. Then we have to have an opposite. If a man drives a horse through a plate glass window, it should the man be prosecuted of the horse. If a man steals to feed his children, should we prosecute the man or that which drove him? The children. If a man rapes a girl, should we prosecute a the man, the girl who tempted him or drove him, his ancestors for his genetic appearance or glandular inclination or the force that design manca, take it back to God.

sn3-24:37

God did all the dirty work. See, we didn't have anything to do with it. Perhaps I'm not saying anything positive. What is equality? Was Samson equal to? Delilah is a baby equal to a dying man? I remember one time I was given a talk up in, I think it was Kent, Kent, Ohio, and I said, I didn't believe in abortions and killing babies. And I said, it's better to, if somebody has to die, let it be the old guy that's lived his life out. Let's not kill babies. They ain't had a chance and I can't help but think it. People are embodied with a certain love for babies, a certain attraction for them. They're very precious. An old man with cancer is not precious.

sn3-25:40

Well, I had one of the fathers and one of the people, students up there coming to our meetings, he stormed out. He was an attorney. He stormed out. He says, I can't stand anymore of this out the door. He went. He didn't like the idea of letting the old man die instead of the baby or you only half of a plan by virtue of not possessing both sexes. I think sometimes a lot of the stuff that we do is the result of two different beings coming together and they got the advantage of two different thoughts, plans, ways of thinking, and is peace of mind more important than global peace or herd piece? Are you only a body? Are you rather a complex organism, a cell colony, a nature oriented bundle of conditioned reflexes? We've been hearing that stuff a psychologist for a long time. Were just a bunch of conditioned reflexes. Is the brain a monitoring station designed for that organism's indefinite survival? Or is our body programmed for death? Death gene by death. Genes or something like that following procreation like the corner and the wheat. In other words, when you start breeding the wheat gets corn dries up, falls off of the stalk. Is all religion and philosophy merely rationalization, rationalization, emanating from that computer to answer constant cellular awareness of death.

sn3-27:26

In other words, we write books and everything else to try to tone down the shock of death. The germ falls from a dying tassel in corn to or is the eternal belief in life after death and intuitive reading from that computer, a reading not completely translatable into computer symbols which are limited. Is there a soul? Did it exist before the body or must it be developed, grown, or evolved? The baby who cries at both of them. In other words, I so think that the babies cry because they're sorry, they got here. Prove the following mind as other than somatic awareness, we are using these terms. We never prove them. Subconscious mind, ego hid super, ego chakra, kundalini, titel, astro, etheric, casual body, aro, halo, ectoplasm, spiritual ear conscience, spiritual nectar. We waiting to these, digging for phenomena and that sort of thing. We run into a tremendous lot of capacity on the part of the mind.

sn3-29:02

What is time? Does time pass or does it passes space? Time is stable. Metrics, which we are only in which we are only transient visitors. How much of life is a mirage? Do we see this world infallibly or obliquely? Just because we see the world as say we're infallible in what we say. Are the senses infallible? Can you see or hear or feel or smell or taste? Time is time only a relative conceptualization. What is the reality of time? Does the ant or amoeba, I mean this is where when you get to thinking about the time for different types of creatures, we don't know, but it's possible that their length of time is much different than ours. For instance.

sn3-29:59

In other words, an walking across a board or a plath that takes him a certain amount of time, which may be we call duration. When a human being going across that same period would have a much shorter time and so a shorter duration. What does a lifetime feel like? Does it feel differently to a child and to an old person? And I think it does. I think it does. I think a child has a feeling it's going on forever. I'll always be thinking there. What is the relation to memory at the time? Do we remember a duration or measure? If we have no clock at hand, do we remember how long a pain lasted? When the pain occurred years ago? We don't remember much about pains. Why is that phenomenal? Would women become pregnant as often if they remembered the duration intensity of the pain of childbirth? This is where this thing shows up that it is basically part of the deal. Do we have a real sense of time when we hear a clock ticking? Do we then know what a second is or what stretch of consciousness exists for others? In a second? I.

=== File sn4 ===
Time: 30:29

Speaker 1

sn4-00:01

A long period of time for an ant is what I'm getting at. And another something entirely different for a human being. Do the wings of the hummingbird move rapidly or slow to the gauging of the hummingbird? We think they're very fast. They may think they're slow to the time. Sense of a fruit flies is life. Long or short is a sense of duration or passing time proportional to the mass of the entity of that experience. Does time exist other than a fascination, which seems to be a brief or longer duration? In other words, you hear people say, time passed swiftly rushed by.

sn5-00:42

This is a understanding of that duration, and two people would have a different duration and then would get to wonder what's the long range duration of a lifetime? If the sun is our ultimate clock of earth rotation as a measurement, what is our measurement of time after the death of our senses? Do we change our measurement when we go blind or ears fail is time and illusion that prevents us from experiences self that has no motion. This is a thing that you sense a bit in the later years of life that ourself now is not ambitious and basically it has no motion itself, but it may cause it. Have you ever heard a cloth ticking in a delirium?

sn4-01:45

If the mind can be distorted in a delirium or in an LSD trip, does the mind ever understand the true feeling of a second? What is nostalgia? Is it the soul's view of a previous feeling? What is space? Is space interdependent with time? Are they not measured by each other? For instance, they call a light year. See, that's that's the duration of a point of light. Time is determined by spatial phenomena, rotation, duration. In other words, we count things by the surface of the earth, rotates. We call a day. And do space and time exist at all time except in reference to us? What is the understanding by insects of the distance to the sun of the moon? Can they look up there and see what's happening?

sn4-02:45

Do we have a true picture of nature? When we appreciate nature as being beautiful is such an appreciation of life or of death. It's like you go out and you look at the beautiful leaves. Autumn, that's death. See, have you ever watched the war that goes on in a drop of water in a cancerous tissue or in a cancerous tissue? You got some germs in there that's floating around. There's a lot of activity there and consciousness too. Evidently they know how to swim. How many pro zones are required to sustain the world's meta zones? Can they be counted? How many proteasomes are eaten alive every second by their animals or zones or whatever? How many microscopic meta zones are eaten each second by large events? Is death painless for these beings? Do they scream? How many small metz zones are needed to feed one worm for a day or one insect? How many worms or insects die every minute to feed the birds? How many worms are insects are needed to feed a pair of birds in their fledglings each day? How many worms or insects are in need for one hen's egg? How many that hen have to eat in order to produce an egg? In the summer? We hear the hum of many insects. Is this hum beautiful orchestral or a bedlam of screaming? We never really know.

sn4-04:13

Are the songs of birds more than just mating noises? Are not trees more attractive and autumn than when dying? What is the true destiny of all beings? A growth into individuality or a means of energy, food for higher beings? Predators? Well, I just use these to, if you want something to stimulate your thought, but we don't know what to think, we dwell on some of those things. We let's loosen up and answer questions or make comments long as they aren't too rough.

Speaker 2

sn4-05:17

What would you give as a definition of meditation?

Speaker 1

sn4-05:25

Well, I would probably say that meditation is personal thought, personalized type of thought. That's all we're thinking. You can't stop thinking no matter what you're doing, but that's meditation. We're thinking about it, but it's more personalized and wanting to know whether you're going to get across the street safely or something. Meditation is not strange to the thinking process. It is a thinking process

Speaker 3

sn4-06:09

Objectively. Thank you for coming. And objectively

Speaker 1

sn4-06:14

Say that again.

Speaker 3

sn4-06:15

It says objectively, thank you for coming objectively. I'm sure there'll be some that will come.

Speaker 1

sn4-06:23

Some will come. Are you still teaching in West Virginia? Huh?

Speaker 4

sn4-06:29

Are you still teaching in West Virginia?

Speaker 1

sn4-06:31

Well, I have a farm that we meet at and people come there if they want to go into a trance or sleep or chop wood or meditate or ask questions. So it's been valuable. Valuable? Yeah.

Speaker 5

sn4-06:59

For those quos you just said before, do you also think about them if you do have arrived to any kind of food you have? So if I think about them and arrive to the same, would I arrive to the same thing to Judy or not necessary?

Speaker 1

sn4-07:14

I really can't follow you. I mean, you're talking kind of low

Speaker 3

sn4-07:21

On the sentences you just gave us like you were reading.

Speaker 1

sn4-07:24

Yeah.

Speaker 3

sn4-07:24

Do you think about them regularly or do you already

Speaker 1

sn4-07:28

What? Know

Speaker 3

sn4-07:28

What's going on?

Speaker 1

sn4-07:29

No, no. I mean this stuff I read. Maybe you notice that sometimes I stop. I haven't read them for the last talk.

Speaker 3

sn4-07:41

Probably. You have thought about them,

Speaker 1

sn4-07:42

Huh?

Speaker 3

sn4-07:43

You have thought about them?

Speaker 1

sn4-07:44

Thought about 'em? Sure. Oh, there's a lot of things that I focus on more than others. I focus on phony religions. I think we've got phony psychology systems.

Speaker 3

sn4-07:58

No, I was just concerned if the answers, there are answers for those things, aren't they? Oh, yes.

Speaker 1

sn4-08:04

Yeah. And

Speaker 3

sn4-08:05

Will it be the same for me for you?

Speaker 1

sn4-08:08

I don't know. I don't know. Have you pursued most of them all the through? Have you pursued most of those questions you read to your satisfaction within yourself?

sn4-08:26

I don't think I've paid that much attention to them except to note. Except to note that they show the discrepancies in our thinking system. We get into things and do them before we analyze what we're doing. That's the whole thing. And they're read, of course I read them. I try to read them slow, but it's better if a person could read them off the paper themselves. They get what we do is we stumble around trying to find some way to talk to God and we never find it. We will swear on it that we've talked to him, but nobody even Sure. So there's certain things that you can't just because you think about 'em, you can't push 'em.

sn4-09:18

And in other words, one of the whole secret of miracles is allowing it to happen, not showing off and saying, look what I can do. And I called miracles. There's minor things that happened in their psychic life, and the thing is to be happy if it's good and if it's bad, look a little deeper and see why the thing has to happen that way. All while I'm talking, I'm trying to get it across to you that we have capacity. I ask those questions, but we have the individual has a capacity to do things that we read about, but we don't ever stop and try it. For instance, there's a case of we got his book down there. What was his name? Spiritualist in England, the name I don't know. He would go into a trance and float out the window. Two stories above the street. Who am I talking about? Anybody remember him? It was a medium of some sort. It wasn't nonsense. It happened. Well, what kept him up? What kept him from falling? I mean, there were actually witnesses that saw it and they go around. The people talk to him. Yeah, he could do it at Will, but I've got the book. He wrote a book about it in fact, and I can't remember his name.

Speaker 2

sn4-11:13

David.

Speaker 1

sn4-11:14

David Young. Right. Okay. So this shows capacity people. We have the capacity to do things and in a lifetime we never know how it's done. So no need to be surprised if somebody gets healed, don't be surprised if it fails. See, the idea is you can't force anything. We can't force any. We just robotic. So we got to have to try to get robotic measures of a little more developed expert robotic impulses or receptions. Yeah.

Speaker 4

sn4-11:58

How do you feel about astrology?

Speaker 1

sn4-12:00

Astrology? I've never got into it, to be honest with you. Yeah.

Speaker 2

sn4-12:11

What gives you the most satisfaction or I would say gratification in this point of your career or this point of your examination of life?

Speaker 1

sn4-12:25

Well, I don't have many thrilling adventures with the people that I work with, but I'm always feel better if a person reaches another step that is, in other words, I can't say why. Maybe I shouldn't like it or become happy, but it happens that I get very happy. I also get very happy when I see a baby. I love babies. I don't know why. So you can detect that by, huh?

Speaker 2

sn4-13:13

You can detect them getting up on that other one step higher just by sometimes without even maybe talking to them. Or

Speaker 1

sn4-13:22

Can you say that, oh, hey, the thing for them to do is not worry about me. Learn to push, learn to keep hammering away at it. Focus your thinking on it. And that's the reason I read some of these things out. There are ways of a person putting in an hour a day or so in some kind of spiritual work. One of 'em is examining what he's done wrong during the day, and the other one is making up his mind that he's going to follow a certain routine that enables him to think better or to perceive or to cause we could cause things. As I said in the beginning, we can heal people and you talk sometimes to people that heal and you'll find out that there's no formula. There's no formula. It is just magic, and it's something that you think about and if it happens, you rejoice if nothing happens back to the drawing board. But you don't try to make a business out of it. In other words, the only thing I can say, I can't say while we're trying to please God and God don't want us to do this. No, I don't say that. I just say that there's a time sometimes, but things happen better than other times. I don't know what causes it. I don't know what the time is, the difference of the time, but I mean, sometimes a person won't pick up things. There are a lot of people that are psychic.

sn4-15:10

But what I'm saying is we are talking about Zen, and I want to say this much about it. I've never been out of the United States. Oh, let me, I shouldn't say that because I've been, well, maybe not, maybe I've never been on the United States.

Speaker 4

sn4-15:42

The experience that you had when you were 30 years older, relying on the couch, couch, can you identify anything specific that triggered that IE What caused that to come about?

Speaker 1

sn4-15:55

You mean when my head had the pain?

Speaker 4

sn4-15:57

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1

sn4-16:00

I thought I was dying. That's all I thought. So you

Speaker 4

sn4-16:03

Don't really know why it

Speaker 1

sn4-16:05

Happened or don't know? I don't know. I think one thing in all my life, I've been hoping that I'd find a formula. I'd find something way of looking at death. I took one time, I was around 17 years old, I decided to kill myself, and I took strip nine and I wound up in the hospital and doctor, I don't know if you've ever heard of strip nine and know what it does to you. My mouth was pulled back in my ears and my head was trying to touch my heels, and I thought it would be a very simple thing. I would wait. I'd just take a strict night. I'd be unconscious. The next thing I'd do, I'd be in heaven flying around with the angels. But what I had a vision of, I went blind. I went blind with it. The doctor came up, I remember he came up and he was, my mother was there. She showed up. I did it on the street. I washed the street line down with some stuff out of a pump water, and I wanted out. I wasn't doubt, I just fed up with the games of life. That's all. So he said to me, how many, he had a medical measurement of it. How many?

sn4-17:35

So much of these five grams I think he was talking about. I shook my head. No, I couldn't speak. I shook my head. No, that wasn't the amount. He said, was it a teaspoonful? And I said, yeah, it was really a table spoonful. And so he said, well, son, you've done a good job. It's a very helpful, you've done a very good job. He was in the doctor's office. They got an ambulance and rushed me to High Valley Hospital, and I passed out on the ambulance and I figured that was it. The thing was, of course, see, this is the thing of training children to think that the angels are going to come and get him. Then no angels showed up. Their name must been out playing poker someplace. But I got up there and woke up the next morning, I got these guys, three or four doctors standing around me and wondering why I recovered. They couldn't understand why I recovered from it. But the thing is, I don't believe it's time to go. That's all. I jumped the gun. They weren't through tortured me.

Speaker 4

sn4-18:58

I mean, not to say that I would just want to go out and try something to see what it's like. I'm just curious as to what you thought just initiated that

Speaker 1

sn4-19:11

What I thought about what?

Speaker 4

sn4-19:13

Yeah. I mean, I'm not like, how do you do it? I want to try it.

Speaker 1

sn4-19:16

Oh, no, no. I know that. I was just curious to what you thought made the strictly your wife will sue me. You mean what kind of thinking I had?

Speaker 4

sn4-19:31

Just sort of, is there any, I mean, it just seems kind of like, wow, you're just lying on the couch and poop. This magical thing.

Speaker 1

sn4-19:46

It wasn't a surprise to me because I expected, but I had a vision. A vision before I got in the ambulance of, I watched myself and I was lying in a casket and my hand was up on my chest or something, and I looked down and it started to rot. I mean, the process of rotting was part of the vision. And I knew then that I was not going to die possibly, but if I did, I was no way to stop it. But I never knew why, except that possible some entity or some organism. It prompted me to fight back. And when I saw that there was no hope of fighting back then, I just went unconscious. Yeah,

Speaker 2

sn4-20:47

I think he's trying to ask you, when you were 30 and had your experience, what caused it? Why did you have an experience? What factors caused that? What led up to that?

Speaker 1

sn4-21:02

I don't really know why. I don't think anybody ever a fly. Just the mechanics of it, huh?

Speaker 4

sn4-21:07

Yeah. I was just sort of asking as to if you have any clue as to what sparked it. Just the mechanics of what? Just touched that off.

Speaker 1

sn4-21:16

Is it taking the poison?

Speaker 4

sn4-21:18

No, I'm talking about when you were 30.

Speaker 1

sn4-21:19

Oh, yeah. Well, I don't TI don't know what really cost. The thing was that I had gone out to Seattle to get married, right? And it all through, it was ignorance on my part. I thought all women were saints and this was a lesbian, and that was the end of that trip. See, I caught her with another woman and I went down there for very long. So I turned around. I thought, well, I went and got a room in a hotel, was a Chinese, a hotel, was just a cheap place to, and had too much money. And I thought, I get down to the library and see 'em daddy esoteric books, and so I'd do some reading and I didn't expect anything to happen. I didn't expect anything at all that happen. I wondered why it had the pain in my head, that unbearable pain in my head. I thought, oh, this was kill me. Of course, the person said Not too long after that, I was standing and I went out the window, went right through the glass, headed up for the range of mountains up there. Yeah.

Speaker 5

sn4-22:59

So how could you be Sure then it was not just a mental thing going on.

Speaker 1

sn4-23:04

Oh, you can never be sure.

sn4-23:08

There's no way that when I talk about these things, I try to be as candid and just say what happened, because I don't tend to embellish it. There's embarrassment and stuff, but I feel that if you tell the truth and describe how you feel, and I don't know why I came back. I don't know why I regain consciousness even see, it was just a tremendous pain in my head. But you never know what causes it. I sometimes think that that was my time. That's all. It's my time to break through some information and that it was life after death because I realized that I was dead. I realized that, but I was overwhelmed by the beauty of that place and the potential, but I could see anything I wanted to see. All I had to do was ward. I found out later on reading some of the books by Spiritualists was that they had an explanation for that type of phenomenon. And it was causal realm. The causal realm. There's an astro body and then there's a causal realm. Of course, I took it with a grain of salt. I thought, how do they know? But regardless, when I come out of that, I realized that something caused this to show on the screen of my mind.

sn4-24:53

And of course I fell off of the high place, fell through black just like a jet. Black couldn't see out. And I thought when I hit the bottom, it won't be dead. When I hit the bottom, I was back in, dead back. I was cautious of being in bed, but, but I think that it was sort of a blessing in a way because I've always wanted some reassurance that there was life after death. Because you don't get much proof on this. It's very hard to get any proof that you survive death.

Speaker 3

sn4-25:38

Maybe that was it. You just wanted to see what you wanted to see. You saw it.

Speaker 1

sn4-25:43

You mean that I created it because I was hungry for it, huh? Yeah. Maybe you were just upset. Go ahead. Could be. It could be. Might've been part of it, but I don't know. The thing before it though, I was in so much pain that I thought the pain had killed me. I didn't conceive it. I was going to try. Pain in your heart, in your head. I had in the head. Oh, I knew that. Yeah. In your heart as well. Did that have, I don't know. I don't remember anything bothering me there. Except the discovery of, huh? Except the discovery of your beloved some time before. Could have been. Could have been. Yeah. Well, yes. That was the theme of my life. I wanted to know. I wanted to know if there was any hope after death. And it's difficult to cause it. You go talk to somebody else. There are people, there's a lot of times where people are, they're dead, pronounced dead, and they think they're dead. And you talk to people, work in hospitals, you'll find us. There's cases of where they bring 'em in and think they're dead.

sn4-27:08

I remember years ago when I was just a kid, they didn't take a body to the mortuary, to undertaker. They buried 'em from the front room. And undertaker would come down and take a hose and get all the blood out of your system and pump it out and make damn sure you're dead. Before they al me. So I just figured that some people do. They can. One time, this was a small village I lived in, and a fellow had some kind of a spell that he came over and he fell, not only fell, but he fell in a bucket and put the widget on his head. He couldn't get the bucket off and he stopped breathing something of that sort. But he surprised him all by now. They actually had him in a casket. They got the bucket off, put him in a casket, and he had raised up and asked for a drink of water. But see now they make sure you're dead to make sure you're dead. They take that blood out, they pump the blood out. So I think, I don't know the reason for all this, but I think there's an education and those things happen to you. You get a clear cut definition between consciousness and death of just unconscious death.

Speaker 5

sn4-29:06

In a previous lecture, you said that after you got that experience, you were changed through that. Faculty was really different. So that might prove that that might be approved. That it was not only a mental thing or

Speaker 1

sn4-29:20

Not necessarily. Yeah. You can change physical things. You can change, you can heal a person.

Speaker 3

sn4-29:29

So you just got that after that. How did you, after your experience, how did you figure out that you had kind of

Speaker 1

sn4-29:39

Help? I didn't. I didn't. It was quite a while after I had my experience. I was, for a week or so after I was coming through it, I couldn't stop weeping. And I got on the bus. I got on the bus. When I got further, got away from Seattle, unless I was tore up, I found the, A tension left me. But the thing is that I had a little conversation with you over there, and what I try to get across is that there is information available. This true spiritual life is finding, some people say finding God. Well, I never found God. See what I mean? But I knew that there was some power strongly than mine. We.

=== File sn5 ===
Time: 30:04

Check this note: Side 5 was 32 minutes total. First 7 minutes is repeat of last 7 minutes of side 4. Deleted from mp3 file #5. File 5 – 25 minutes** see below.

Speaker 1

sn5-00:00

There is information available. This true spiritual life is finding, some people say finding God. Well, I never found God. See what I mean? But I know that there were some power strongly than mine that could be tapped or maybe we could blame it on God. I've noticed this. For instance, I saw a girl, I don't know anybody in back there, know that there was a girl between you and that lady. Her head was hurting her. And I was going to mention it to her, but I thought, well, not now. She left, but I could see her pain from here. And this is when it is unfortunate the person has to have a headache. But there is a possible way to see that and remove it. And we don't know the mechanics. I don't know the mechanics of it. Just know that it happens and I'm happy it happens. So yeah. Could you have

Speaker 2

sn5-01:16

Seen that headache keep your eyes closed? Have you actually crossed?

Speaker 1

sn5-01:19

So I never closed them. I never closed my eyes.

Speaker 2

sn5-01:23

So you did see something? You close something.

Speaker 1

sn5-01:27

No, I see it. We have a place down. Every we should talk was like when people would come in and I could go through and put my finger on their headache right on the spot. And I don't like to talk about this. It sounds like I'm popping off or lying or bragging, but regardless, in other words, if anybody's got a headache here tonight, it's possible I can take it away for you. That's the thing as to show. But the only one I saw in the room is that girl there. I knew she was in some sort of pain.

Speaker 3

sn5-02:11

Mr. Rose, can you heal people from a distance or do you have to have physical contact with them as well?

Speaker 1

sn5-02:19

I've never tried to heal 'em at a distance. Never have. And of course, I don't know why it would have to be to close up because what's my finger? There ain't no magic here. That's been

Speaker 2

sn5-02:35

Able to pick up people from a distance. Huh? You've been able to pick up other people from a distance. In other words, even though you haven't healed them, you've sense, you could tell people have been at a distance if you sense they've been in trouble to be some long term.

Speaker 1

sn5-02:53

Oh yeah. I've been able to tell sometimes when a person to give you old say, I got to go soandso in trouble. Sure enough. But see, what I'm trying to get across is I led a relentless life against ignorance so that I could have better sight into spiritual things like a soul, know what the soul was doing, what was capable of having in it. And so consequently, when your whole being is reaching for something to define yourself by or to indicate that you're not spoofing yourself, that you've actually got a hold of a system or method, which is foolproof.

sn5-03:53

I very seldom ever had a person that I'd point to 'em and see, I see. I'd see the headache and I'd put my finger on it and I just like this girl back here, I could see her pain and I was busy talking, so I didn't say anything to her. What I'm saying is we are in too shallow water. Things are deeper than that. If you look, you've got to look deeper. And the main thing is you got to be candid. Don't make any great exploits out of it. You're just happy because it worked. That's the attitude to have. If it don't work, you back up and say what went wrong? Maybe it's not supposed to happen.

sn5-04:50

Yeah. What do you think about Phil, that the in connection with spiritual or mental, I'm glad you mentioned that. I should have mentioned it sometime during the talk. I believe in total celibacy except for the purpose having children and because sex detracts from the production of energy, real energy. And of course I find it, your mind's clear your mind's that way. It seems that fixation for the opposite sex gives you a lot of trouble. So it's a simple way to get around. It is. You quit. That's all. But it helps to be, ation can be a healthy relationship, healthy relationship. People with healthy relationships can get gonorrhea. Don't kid yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 2

sn5-05:59

You said earlier that it's almost a law, but because of your experience, you gained this knowledge or this vision and you expressed it as almost a law that you pass on this knowledge to other people. My question is how do you know it's a law? Why do you think it's a law? Who made the law? And can you break it? Or what happens if you break it?

Speaker 1

sn5-06:26

You forgot one thing. I'm supposed to pass it along good or bad. Right? But I wouldn't pass any on. It was negative. No.

Speaker 2

sn5-06:38

How do you know it's a law? I mean, it's not the only place I've heard it.

Speaker 1

sn5-06:41

Well, it's a law because it's predictable when something's predictable. In other words, if every time that you think of dollar bills, that becomes a fixation. And after a while you'll either quit thinking of dollar bills to see how many of you make. And the same way with spiritual matters, you see, you get the edge of it, you get something. It's like a hunch and you try it. And of course I'm saying, I do believe this man asked a question. It was very valuable. I didn't say it because I don't like to tell people to be Sullivan. But this is the miracle. The miracle is a result of celibacy, of my estimation. I don't believe you can live and have sex and drink and get drunk and that kind of stuff. And you owe anybody. And I can't tell you why. I just say, I just don't believe you'll happen. Somebody that's tormented, allowing the son be tormented, need another drink or need another sexual act or something like this. Your head's focused on the mundane. It's not focused on another field of action, another field of possibility. You said you went into,

Speaker 2

sn5-08:10

You said you at one point you went into the contracting business, but you don't talk about it as anything more than

Speaker 1

sn5-08:19

A means to end, right? Was that your approach to it? Going into it? Oh sure. I had eat. Yeah, I eat. So you weren't interested in making a profit? Oh, you about to make a profit. Why? Huh? Why? Well, because you charge them for your labor. That's the profit. Yeah. You start so much for, you make a bid, you bid on 'em, and you bid enough to pay for the material and you're so much an hour for labor. How long were you in the business? Huh? How long were you in the contract? Oh, a couple of years. A couple of years. I can't remember exactly.

Speaker 3

sn5-09:05

In your pursuit's, pursuit for knowledge, is there a discipline that is studied or used by individuals which gives them a universal understanding that when they reached a point of enlightenment?

Speaker 1

sn5-09:20

No, I think there's a discipline. And of course the discipline, one of the disciplines is the celibacy. That's to get your total focus on it. Because if you're thinking about making money or if you're thinking about making the girl next door, you're not going to have the power necessary to

Speaker 3

sn5-09:39

Have your thoughts

Speaker 2

sn5-09:41

Move.

Speaker 3

sn5-09:42

How long did you pursue these goals of understanding the truth before you made that final determination in your life? Celibacy with the,

Speaker 1

sn5-09:51

Well, I was celibate. You're going to put me through the membrane. I was celibate as a child, of course. And it was easy because? Because, no, I'm talking about I was 17 years old. I could have had sex if I wanted to, but it was beautiful. I had been in a seminary and everybody there was Sullivan and I thought, this is a beautiful way to live. Your head's clear. You don't want anything, you don't worry about anything. And that continued up until the time I was in college and college I met a girl and had a relationship with her. So I saw that was a wonderful experience to stay away from. You don't need that. So, because I realized consciousness is much more valuable than whatever happens in the pleasure field. I'm assuming that because you went into a Catholic monastery, you were a Catholic. I supposed to what? I was always a rebel though. Believe me. The sacrament of sex. That is part of the sacredness of sex. Yes. Oh, that's not sacred. Pigs do it. Dogs do it. That doesn't make it pro.

sn5-11:25

That doesn't make it pro. Well, you'd have to talk to the dogs and the pigs. I think it's profane. They think the dogs get something out of it. I'll tell you what it is. I'll tell you what it is. It's obsession. It's obsession. And you get, people get hooked on it just like you get hooked on booze. Sometimes you get hooked on booth, they find out that they're a slave, so they start drinking. They're unhappy with the situation. But I think there's a magic in it. I really believe it's a magic I, things happen that I can't do, even though I'm celibate, but I, things happen are favorable, but a long period of time. Creative sense. Huh? An creative sense. I had children. Yeah, I've been married twice. See, I had two, three, well, I had two children. My first wife, she had another child that wasn't before I met her. See my second wife, I had one child and I a celibacy regardless. And I find them healthier.

sn5-13:01

The whole thing about sex is basically after you do it so many times you think, what the hell? The draw. What's attraction here? The attraction is we're animals that can't control ourselves. You get the urge. We function like an animal. Well, if that's weakening you, then that's civilization. That's civilized. Civilized people, not just responding to an urge and you have to block it. That's all. You just have to, I find that thinking it's easier. Your health is better and you're like a free person. And of course it might sound strange. I was married, of course, I pulled some strange things. I married my first wife, I married her, she's pregnant.

sn5-14:09

I'm not kidding. That wasn't my kid. But her people were beating the hell out of her and she didn't have any money and she was trying to make a few bucks to feed the baby by diapers before it was born. And her parents were holy rollers and they believed that they should beat the hell out of her. And if she had a baby inside of her, could deformed the baby or something. And for the sake of God, beat the hell out of her because it's perfectly natural for people to have babies. So I went down to her house and asked her what she was going to do about the baby. And she says, well, I'm going to raise it. And I said, why don't you get married? She says, who in the hell will have me? I said, where? I said, I'll in about a week. He got married. I had two other children. Barr, the one by the other guy. Whoever he was was the smartest one on the bunch. Didn't flatter me too much. I believe there's, excuse me, I believe there's beauty in life, but at the same time, you got to watch it sometimes carry it too far you want to say.

Speaker 4

sn5-15:37

Do you think that making a spiritual discovery or having an experience like yours that already changes your after death experience?

Speaker 1

sn5-15:47

I don't know. I couldn't answer that. I could not see when things happen, when things happen out of the blue, if you're praying every day and that sort of thing, and then have an experience, I said, well, might've been the result of prayers or something like that. I wasn't praying. I was out there. I was out there to get married.

Speaker 4

sn5-16:06

I've heard you say before that people's after death experiences are not the same. Everyone does not find the same thing as that. And the implications sometimes about the importance of doing spiritual work and making some kind of a discovery while you're alive. Oh sure. The implication seems strong that by doing that you'll somehow improve the status of your

Speaker 1

sn5-16:29

After death experience. Well see. I can't prove that either. You take a gamble, if you think there's anything that's going to guard you, like an angel guard angel or something like that

Speaker 3

sn5-16:44

Of your feelings of your experiences for an after death experience. Yeah,

Speaker 1

sn5-16:51

I figured that. I saw what would happen. Very happy. I was very happy and I was amazed at the scope of it. When I landed there, one of the first things I thought was, I can have anything I want. I didn't want anything in particular. I did not. I like to seen some of the people on earth, but when they showed up, it wasn't my relatives. There were some people showed up, but now what cause of that was, I don't know. That could have been

Speaker 3

sn5-17:32

Make-believe. Did you see any of these in these since your experience in real life? No. You mean of these visions, the ones that you saw that

Speaker 1

sn5-17:42

Time? No, never. Didn't see them again. It's hard without getting a picture of what occurred, number one, the pain in my head. Where did it come from? That's what I never could understand. I can't believe that something pain is greatest and knock you out. Wouldn't kill you. You've got a hemorrhage or something up in there, see? So I don't know why that tremendous pain was there. And when I came out of it, when I fell, it's like I fell into a darkness. And when I came out of it, of course I was very unhappy and couldn't stop weeping. Stop weeping. And I thought I got to get out of town. And so town must be driving me crazy. Is

Speaker 3

sn5-18:33

This the darkness

Speaker 1

sn5-18:33

That brought

Speaker 3

sn5-18:34

You to this level? Do you think that this is the lowest level of the spirit?

Speaker 1

sn5-18:40

Well, I don't don't think it was that particularly. It was the idea that I had left the place that I thought was real. I thought it was real. Had you been studying zen before that? Huh? Had you been studying Zen before? Before? I have to figure. Oh yes. Yes. I was 30 years old when I went to Seattle. I Zen is rather complex and it's very simple, but it's complex. Just like we're trying to talk about healing. And I'll give you another example. This other course. Anyhow, I got Ill one time not feeling good. I couldn't shake it. So I tried to get out and walk us three, come back. So I walked down in the four or five blocks and come back home and just exercise. And so I stopped in a beer joint and they were playing re 25 cents hand. And I sat there and took my mind off of my trouble. Well, lost a little money. And of course I lost over a thousand bucks, I'd say before they got me the crazy ante, let put a dollar in a piece and bets went up. Size of the pot and all this thing. Well, I realized what they were doing. They saw through me that I had my hand shook when I had a good hand. So they'd bet bluffed me out.

sn5-20:34

So I decided, well, I'm put a stop to this. I'm going to call everything that looks anyway. If I get a decent of an hand, I called. And what they were doing were bluffing. I didn't raise them. I just called every time. Boy. They start losing. And it was like, just like a disease. They couldn't get back. I could tell you some stories about it. I didn't even know how to play Booker. I had to stop. And I say, wait a minute, our ACEs ones or are they underneath of a two or are they the top one on the deck? And they'd look at me and tell me the truth naturally. And ACEs were the highest card. I had five of 'em.

sn5-21:19

And a low card. Your low card was wild lowest card. You maybe heard about this stuff. And I didn't know if Ace was number one or it was number 13. And so they'd be betting. And you had a rule in the card game that you had to bet if you had a CI hand. In other words, keep from floating through and letting people bet for you and then play ignorant and rake you more money. But if you really put out a bet, they'd say, well, he's got something. But with me, I couldn't hide it. I couldn't hide it. They knew what I had generally, but I just got real honest with them. I'd say, give me a king. And they'd flip the card and there'd be a king. I'd have two ACEs. I'd say, I need another A card, be an ace. And it was uncanny. I've seen the guys get up and eat the cards. It get so frustrated and chew the cards. That one a new deck. Maybe I'm reading the back of or something.

sn5-22:39

But I'll tell you, it got my mind off of my illness. And I got my money back in maybe 9,000 more. I had a fall of them. They were doing the bet and I had to call them. So we'd go over across the river into Ohio and I'd buy a mistake dinner with their money. But to me it was magic. It was really magic. I literally asked for, they were dealing, not me. They'd be dealing and I'd say, give me an name, give me this. I get it. And I tell you, they got pretty upset too.

sn5-23:21

I didn't deal. I didn't know how to deal. I didn't want to deal with it. I left a deal. They'd been accusing me of stacking the deck. But this to me was, this was magical. It had to be, I didn't even know the power. I thought if I've got, for instance, if you got the low card and wild, did ever play that game, huh? No. Well, you just like this poker, but you play the lowest card in your hand is the wild card. So if you get two threes and you want to pick up another pair like Jacks, that'd be four jacks. But if you hit a two, you got three threes. You know what I mean? So I had to stop and ask them questions. So that's another stupid I then stop me from, couldn't stop me from winning. Yeah. But I believe in this that there's a tremendous lot of things you can do. Number one, if you're not being greedy or if you're not trying to cheat or something like that, I was trying to pass some time, forget about my illness, see? And so I just thought, well, I had to get back home and get some more money.

sn5-24:50

They cleaned me out. But then I thought, well I'll make sure. I'll make them show their cards. I'll call. And that's what wrecked. And it kept on. I mean it kept on I one, they didn't accuse me of something. They couldn't accuse me of anything. I wouldn't deal. I knew that, but I was amazed by it. That's all amazed by it. And like I said, I'll tell you an instance. When I met a girl, when I was getting ready to marry her, and I would sit with a person like I face, she get pulled up a chair and I'd sit, I'll tell you what was wrong with your health. And she was sitting across from me. Now there's some boys back there that know this party talking about they can corroborate this. And I saw a pair of, I saw a string of beads across her chest was inside someplace.

sn5-26:00

I thought, this is crazy. You could see little things like a thread between them. The thread wasn't extended as much as the beads. And then I saw from her, this part of her belly down all black. And I said to her, I said, you got some, are you wearing beads or anything underneath your address? She said, no. I told her, I said, I've seen something strange there. And I told her about the other part of her body being black. And she said, well, she just come down from Pittsburgh. She'd been living up there. She says, I'll you back up. I had an x-ray taken for some reason, I'll go and pick up the x-ray. And she brought it back and the reading would come with it. She had a line called the line of these aneurysms. No, no, they were granuloma. Huh? Granuloma. Granuloma. Yeah.

sn5-27:09

Granuloma a line of granuloma and a diagonal. Hold that out. Diagonal line across her chest. So I knew that I wasn't killing myself. Of course they only did the X-rayed her lung, not the lower body. See? So what happened is she developed two female trouble. Her uterus growed to her backbone. And that was, I didn't know what it was, but that's what I found out later about that region. So of course I don't say you can just do that. I always was tongue in cheek that I try it. See, but we'd have these CH tacos we call them. I'd see if people would've headaches and go put a finger on it. Right? On the point of it hurt. But now this is, where'd it come from? I don't know. I'm happy. I'm happy that I can do it, that I help somebody. And sometimes I think I'm bound to miss someday and see something that really didn't exist. But I never did. I never did. And I could go through a crowd of people and if they got a pain, I can see it, take it away. What's the procedure? I don't know. But the thing is that you just do it. You do it because it helps. It helps. And you don't charge. You don't charge. I mean, I'm happy. That's good enough for me. The fact that when it happens, that's

Speaker 3

sn5-29:20

Running out of time.

Speaker 2

sn5-29:26

People still have questions free perhaps talk

Speaker 1

sn5-29:30

Down front. We're out. We'll throw us out here. We throw it out. Do you? Well, we got plenty of time to hit the door. Feel free to. Sure.

Speaker 2

sn5-29:48

Also, Mr. Rose speaking at Chapel Hill on Wednesday night. Yes. Out on the table this coming Wednesday. Okay.

=== File sn6 ===
NOTE: Files 5 and 6 were spliced together. 25 + 5 = 30 minutes total. File 6 = 5 minutes** see below. I was amazed by it.

== Footnotes ==

== End ==
</div>

1993-1101-NC-State-University-Raleigh-November

2026-01-04T06:10:28Z

Dmadmin: Reformat file name headers

1982-0417-mj-version-Spring-TAT-Mtg-Rose-and-Burns-test

2026-01-04T05:10:02Z

Dmadmin: add page header and cat

{{Page header}}
[[Category:1980s]]
[[Category:1982-0417]]
<div id="widthlimiter">
== To Do ==

== Notes ==

This is a test page trying to resolve 1982-Spring-Intensive vs 1982-0417-Spring-TAT-Meeting-Rose-and-Burns

Times:
mj1 -- 19:53

mj2 -- 22:10

mj3 -- 21:34

mj4 -- 16:11

mj5 -- 30:26

mj6 -- 30:16

mj7 -- 18:33
== Transcription ==

=== File mj1 ===
Time: 19:53

Speaker 1

mj1-00:07

That I told my wife. So they crank that up. I heard call my number five right out. And that phone, that was never registered on record. But theoretically what happened was that you got through one operator and getting ready to ring mine it up the exact moment I, my daughter plus miles away, I knew she was very ill react. Well the funny thing was that she, you remember that he was dead or Oh, it was years after died. Years after. No, I, she knew the father's death and his family had the same reaction. He tried to keep him quiet about it. He says in his book, told him not to just cause Yeah. Made him angry that he would say things. Well this is the thing that goes through your head. You, it's only case of emergency. What I not saying reading thing. You're out after the understanding of own.

mj1-04:13

You're not reading the books on real psychology. Let's say scientific psychology, chemical, chemical psychology, bio. I what a lot of this stuff you read about s fair tale better than it gives you a little punch. Punch. But something happens. People have ability. But you read deeply enough into this coming out the last 20 years. It's utterly amazing the revelation. And then also pick up this stuff when you run into something because the gets it. Charles works, one of the guys a couple years ago, I have a back of information he never missed. He just saw same you'd see and drove mother born on the west coast to the he how'd you know, told, they talked over, discuss it. Said, of course the gangster figure too then the needle. But that needle went work run.

mj1-06:43

But he lost that incident. He lost it. So here's what happens when you read these accounts, say bs, but if it isn't, then you find that these stories have called the denominators. This is where the science, this is where the science, how did that boy get that way? When did it and when did it cease? Cease brother said didn't understand. So you start to learn things and these things start to pile up. Common denominators pile up and you say, Hey, we've got a formula. We've got a formula. Think grow rich in his life. Think grow rich. The guy gives a secret book.

mj1-07:45

But you have that your fingertips, you writing on this, you should have a folder full of typed out quotations from the on how to get what success looks. The whole picture. He says the whole picture isn't just common sense biology, biological process. I feel that there's too many, I don't know, I don't know what you're doing. I dunno what guys going where I live. There aren't things you learn. You learn. Tove Magazine, denominator there. Learn about psychology. I believe this. If a person can get, don't just say I believe this. There are many men who have said it

Speaker 2

mj1-09:36

And tell the little stories. I saw guys speak up at in class or physics class from a graduate PhD from Columbia Mechanics, all stuff. His professor ou. And he gave, the title of his lecture was Quantum Mechanics and the Soul. And his ultimate conclusion in the lecture was that each of us has an observer, which is passive. And that we all hooked into God who's an active observer. And he was under the observer psychologist. So after the lecture we had a little coffee tea and I said, there's a bookout called the Psychology Observer. And he was really fascinated. So I got the address in True Disciple,

Speaker 1

mj1-11:04

Nobody way in the family going to be this.

Speaker 2

mj1-11:16

Well he read physics, he too much and he read, which is the next book by the do physics. Same right book. But he heard better things about this other book than he did the Dow physics. But they're at similar conclusions that

Speaker 3

mj1-11:55

Tell you a book that summarizes a lot of those discoveries or trends in science correlating with philosophy is that coincidence little book. It's sort of like the history of the argument kind and psychic phenomena. He covers a lot of the big names and science and where their ultimate thinking led to full circle.

Speaker 1

mj1-12:32

I was taking over all, I think in science Einstein years ago to, you can't get into all that in lecture. You don't dare you mind you have talk Apple. Jesus was a right, right. The powerful. Yeah. Right. His whole style. Well this was in that part of the world to this day story. All biggest part of their moral, their philosophy, decisions, always anecdotes and jokes. I think there's nothing more effective now on a one-to-one basis or

Speaker 2

mj1-15:32

This Campbell workshop, something this church every Wednesday has about 40 people every Wednesday. And he reading stories of from the Sufi book, that's the thing. There's no talk, didn't just work, exercises my father,

Speaker 1

mj1-16:48

All those things that he'd get off a week six. And he wasn't saying he knew, he was expected to themselves down six days.

Speaker 3

mj1-17:56

Well,

Speaker 1

mj1-18:09

I want to hear more about that.

Speaker 4

mj1-19:13

Well, I suppose I hope that I can communicate what I wanted to say people without making

Speaker 3

mj1-19:32

Yeah, the boxes.

=== File mj2 ===
Time: 22:10

Speaker 1

mj2-00:00

Collection of relevant one. The other thing of course is possibly asking some questions. Each person do that. Mr. Rose, one thing I thought about was if you ask other people, they may pick up things from other, like when we did it the first time, everybody wrote down what they thought. The only reason I say that is because then you've got something in front of you you can look at after you get the information. In other words, if you ask me and I say something may contribute to somebody, I don't know. I thought about bringing pencil and paper just for the idea of what does direct ability or direct mind science mean to you? What is it? How does it plenty? And then you could ask questions individually. We got paid for here. Tim,

Speaker 2

mj2-01:40

Up fridge.

Speaker 1

mj2-01:46

You got any extra pencils or pens? Upstairs? Pencils. Is that some of your paper on? I have a whole bunch upstairs so I can do these Signed. No, it's just your own. You got some paper. Paper there. I works. I've got some pencil upstairs.

Speaker 2

mj2-02:55

Eye's Eye out of Levi's secret doctrine was alleged that the force had come from the PI level

Speaker 1

mj2-03:07

Army. This is an interesting thing force. This is an old Tracy origin that the physicist used. It implies that they had some knowledge of this ancient, I actually Genesis of the word laid back and it that they sense that there was a power that people had. I don't know. I haven't run it back myself. That'd be interesting. That's where I saw the reference, right? Well yeah. You'll find it though when just whoever bore. I don't care if I get back. Depends. I'd really like to back.

Speaker 3

mj2-04:13

How about the cigarettes? Yeah. Us. I want back after their smoke. So who needs anybody

Speaker 2

mj2-04:29

Else? Those points? There's a point. Sort of a little point. Good cat.

Speaker 1

mj2-04:46

Anybody else?

Speaker 2

mj2-04:57

Anyone else? Okay. Give me a little. Yeah. Anybody else? Anybody else? Anybody want book the right on seat now

Speaker 1

mj2-05:18

Gordon. I, okay, that's

Speaker 2

mj2-05:51

25

Speaker 1

mj2-05:52

Words or less. 25 words or more. What's the question? What is direct mind science? What is direct mind? How do you understand? What is your understanding of direct mind? I had one other question that Mr. Rose, I said can it be developed or is it a natural gift? And if it can be developed, how often one enhance or develop this directed by the building.

Speaker 2

mj2-07:04

Anybody needs to seat. Here's an extra seat.

Speaker 1

mj2-07:14

True. Like I said, intuition is direct mind ability. Well, yeah, but what's direct mind that we were defining

Speaker 2

mj2-07:36

Rather than saying that direct mind is intuition.

Speaker 1

mj2-07:39

That

Speaker 2

mj2-07:39

Intuition

Speaker 1

mj2-07:40

Is ability. That you have capable direct mind of contact. Do you have any mind? You're not capable, you mean? Well, a person has a direct mind also has intuition. He doesn't have intuition. They'll never have direct mind.

Speaker 3

mj2-08:19

On the other hand, animals have direct minds. They don't have intuition because they don't have a computer that logically analyze things. The ones I talked to did

Speaker 1

mj2-08:45

Knowledge. Being sure of yourself, point of knowledge, form, know there's no doubt about it's form. Okay. But yeah, this is what I'm saying. Achieve that knowledge to be able to be to know has a lot to do with it. We're saying, I think from what you said, Mr. Rose, there is a difference between intuition and direct mind ability. That's the, that's more or less the question. See he defined it as being the direct mind, being intuition. And my question was, isn't there a difference between having intuition and having direct mind abilities? That's more or less what I was saying. You can musically kill an animal.

mj2-09:56

This is what I'm saying. There's a whole field of things attached to it. Now see, this is what we're getting at afraid. It has been in your minds here, people have been limited in the understanding of it. Possibly a way of saying that move on. There's a way of saying this as what direct mind is. It includes this direct mind to a dimension which transcend individual contact this or allow to be free from total identification with an individual mind and thus cause changes to occur in others in the physical world. Miracle to this volume, focus of attention, conservation of energy. And the first

Speaker 2

mj2-11:25

Part,

Speaker 1

mj2-11:25

If you

Speaker 2

mj2-11:25

Look at it as a mind dimension from which

Speaker 1

mj2-11:29

This world springs, you can contact that

Speaker 2

mj2-11:32

Dimension.

Speaker 1

mj2-11:35

You can cause a change weld. This is

mj2-12:16

A passive faculty. What goes on, we don't really know. In some cases we suspect electrical generosity. You pick up. Were tremendous going to now we originally we've got two. Ch talk was planned for June and August. June talk was 19 and 20th, which is a little later than they have been in. We did that for a couple reasons. We thought maybe there'd be less conflict with people who have kids in school have a moment to the picture of. And also we figured all the rain will be able to that time. So we decided on having the dock was in the summer. We also had the bright idea that maybe we should have some talks in various cities where we have cat groups or cat people to help encourage attendance at the Chicagos. And the original idea was to have those talks as mainly a lead in or promotion for the summer Chicagos.

mj2-15:07

But as we got into it, I think what's happened is that what we want to do is present the speakers on their own merits for all of those thought. So some of you've probably seen the flyers. We've got several thousand here in the room, which we going to distribute later. But we're giving talks in Akron and Cleveland, two talks in Cleveland on the east and west side, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Baltimore, and Washington DC And we're going to have, most of the speakers are going to be giving two talks. They won't all be one speaker in a city. They're going to be ing Dave Gold, Frank Mascara, and Jake.

mj2-15:58

And what we want to do and what we have done, the way it's presented in this flyer is to present these speakers as experts in a certain field. And I think you'll get that impression from reading the choir's been prepared. We tried to, after talking to the guys that he's volunteered to speak, their subject matter is geared towards what we consider to be their particular experience and expertise and knowledge in a certain field. And each one of 'em comes in from a slightly different angle. But at the same time we're hoping that there's going to be a common theme to all of these. And of course all of 'em are also going to be tied into the common theme or the summer

Speaker 2

mj2-16:53

End of tape. Well, I think maybe it'd be good if each one of the speakers just said a word too about what their talks are going to be about, where they're speaking and what their talks can be about. Just the

Speaker 1

mj2-17:09

Thought we saw.

Speaker 2

mj2-17:20

So Jake, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you were born, what you're talking about,

Speaker 1

mj2-17:27

Where you're talking.

Speaker 3

mj2-17:36

Okay though. Alright. You're talking to

Speaker 4

mj2-17:53

Talking in Canton, in Akron in, and basically my talk's going to start out with a critique of psychology. Go through the gross psychological society working into men and women's psychology and plus mix a postulates about what we call conservation therapy. And they both worked from men's brains, different evidence, met into some things on brain research, then into what is mine? What's the connection between mine and in brain, what's the different theories on that? And from there I'm going to a perception and what you see out there is actually in your head. It's not actually out there. Then going to paradigms create how you create your reality from your concept structures. And we try to work into a theory of psych phenomenon, like from working from how you manipulate the paradigm or your concept structures and ties in with phenomenon. Like a lot of area. Get all

Speaker 2

mj2-19:28

That from three. I told him about he has to cut it for two hours of one hour.

Speaker 4

mj2-19:43

I only had 15 minutes for the talking

Speaker 2

mj2-19:50

It up for question. We're okay. Excuse me, is this she me? Questions, other questions and answers afterwards. Open it up. Yeah, we're going to get back. That's a

Speaker 1

mj2-20:02

Second half of our program here. But the one thing that course we're going to do is be selling tickets in the summer. These lectures, the whole program has to be designed, so that will not be important. We'll discuss the techniques of that later. I'm speaking on the possibility of men's duplicating mental processes using computers. It's a field now, it's called artificial intelligence. And basically it's the question of whether or not men can duplicate the mental processes using hardware, electronics and whatnot. And basically what the presentation will be about are different scientists, the current level of investigation and different theories they have on how the brain works and how they're about to try to duplicate that using electronics. There's a lot of very strange theories and a lot of them come up with conclusions. They all seem to think that they haven't reached any limited, but they always have a view of the human mind, which is so transcendental that it seems almost impossible for them to be able to with it. The idea that the human mind is able to get an overview of itself, whereas a computer can never see an overview of itself, can never build a different perspective.

mj2-21:39

Just one. The idea that there's some anterior observer, several writers have alluded to this, so many different varying words that are very, very similar to the psychology of the observer. Just uncanny some of the similarities and yet they never really say as to how they're going to duplicate that. And that'll lead into the what I.

=== File mj3 ===
Time: 21:34

Speaker 1

mj3-00:04

Necessity for a science that's based on experience or what I call subjective science and this as opposed to the current objective sciences scientists tend to be very objective and very impartial investigations, but when you really get into investigating how the mind works and being able

Speaker 2

mj3-00:27

To pigeon all the different types of experiences, you really find out that objective science is totally hopeless as that. Only $2, no. How will this time direct mind theme in the whole summer? The thing that ties it in is this idea of experience that the only thing that anybody knows for sure, the only thing that you're certain of is your experiences

Speaker 3

mj3-01:07

And yet science can cope with that and when you talk about a mind or somebody experiencing what is this, how do you duplicate this process of experiencing

Speaker 2

mj3-01:18

And the experiences aren't really what I'm saying. The only thing that you can really face any kind of anything on that is basically experience. Experience what comes, what you perceive or what you think. Alright guys, you're right there. The qualification of it something that first 10, that initial experience, it's totally undefinable in terms of science. How do you duplicate that electronically but then who is experiencing that process of experience know itself anyways, it'll only be $2. There's the real Bill King.

Speaker 3

mj3-02:35

We were just going through and having the speakers to give us a little bit of idea about where they're going to be talking and what they're going to be talking about. So it's your turn.

Speaker 2

mj3-02:46

Want me tell you about the three stitches before I Give me a little time. I appreciate it. How about you?

Speaker 3

mj3-03:03

Okay, I'll tell you what I'm going to be talking about while with these guys group, I'm talking in Baltimore and DC in a couple of weeks and my talk's going to be probably the least esoteric and it's direction and then it's going to talking about success and the way to obtain success to different principles of success and the basic theme's going to be that in order to be successful you have to be successful on every level of life. You can't just be successful in your career and your family or even in your philosophic work. You have that direction but you have to tackle everything the same way and using the same principles and I'm going to present the direct line sciences of the system that has these principles to show how they work for us on a mundane level, on a physical level as far as how we've been able to be successful in our business and then also tie some of the different incidents that have happened in the group and Mr. Rose and spice it up. A lot of penitentiary. Dave's going to have our

Speaker 2

mj3-04:13

Bank statements on transparency put on overhead projector every month making one more money. I get credit this out,

Speaker 3

mj3-04:43

But how this is going to tie in a direct mind is it is going to be that some people

Speaker 2

mj3-04:51

Here talking around the group, they'll mention how this direct mind necessarily corresponds to success and I've even heard some people say possibly see this as being you that you could use direct mind as a way of being successful. How would you answer that if somebody says,

Speaker 3

mj3-05:12

Is this thing supposed to be spiritual or is it good for your business? Well, it depends. The basic theme's going to be that regardless of what you want to succeed on, this is the most tedious way to do it. If you want to make money, you can't do it with your inte alone. You're going to have to find certain principles where you can tap into something higher because if you're going to be successful and overcome everything that's going, that's going to present all the obstacles, you're going to present it to you. You're going to have to tap on more than just your rental, just more than you enter power. Even in the business world, you're going

Speaker 2

mj3-05:43

To have to have a computer that increasing numbers. Millions of practice goes through everyday life.

mj3-05:59

There's millions of factors you can't logically. There was a guy who had an down in Texas and 600 and these were people coming in to learn how to sell pots and pay and I know one guy, they interviewed one of these guys taking this before and he hugged me guy and he said, what do you think of this guy? He said, most important guy next to Jesus Christ, that's word for you. Of course he was acting and all that, but this guy, his idea was that you accept God principle or something and it keeps you on a certain course of people know what to expect out of you. You're not going to steal from them. You're not out there to steal. You're out there to produce a service and you hold your head a certain way and eventually the public gets the idea that you're dead serious.

mj3-07:12

You're going to serve, give them something money. I presume that's part of the angle. They likewise think maybe a magic comes down. I thought that was very important because it was the first time I ever heard that it wasn't a denominational talk. This guy wasn't any religions like alcoholics anonymous, spiritual savior to be from alcohol and it works. This is statistic drunk that get away from it. People who went Jesus pledge somehow I think of course what interferes with a lot of people in your businesses and whenever you make up your mind that your ego to something else, then ego. Egoism is offensive. Is it like displacing your ego on another figure like onto a Christ or something? It's dedication. Yeah.

mj3-08:43

You have to be within yourself that your attitude. You never tell them they weren't fucking tell people that they would prove it. They were, they were hundred and then things started to happen to them and wasn't as mysterious as you think. People look you over on the door, they look you over. If you've lar the best you can help them out, help yourself out. That's hard. I think it's just an attitude that rubs off on the public and it has to be real. It can't be something you're going to put on, but I think in those, when you let yourself down to any frame of mind and don't try to shift from the coming person to the honest person and back to the guy that's going to his through next thing going to be aian, you're not going to be anybody. You're going to be going to be flopping around between careers and Johnson and people like that right now they're not moving.

mj3-10:18

They have too many objectives, too many objectives all works but yet their objectives are scattered. You can have many objectives. They all, they no conflict with each other. Your spiritual search don't conflict with your business. It'll help your business, but you have set a priority and that was the name of the game that this guy put across. This was your priority that you had more or less a and you said that would help clean the cell and help them get what? These guys didn't mind giving the 600 parts. They walked out, they were, see I said this years ago, this is a new psychologist. All it means is his words, the proper language. He told that guy put it across and he put it across just the salesman. I believe the psychologist on have psychologist don't have this message.

mj3-11:32

This s when he says that, well how this would tie into use his mental power that he had pick up things. He said, I thought it was kind of outrageous maybe in my point of view, but maybe it isn't. He said even people that have avoid accidents because that was like sort of what said he said that what keeps a guy, why does a guy that is supposed to go on an airplane all of a sudden turn around before he gets on to walk back out and in the airplane crashes. He says, what is it about that guy? How does this happen? Bomb. No, he says that's an ability sensitivity or you want to call it direct mind or intuition, but he's able to pick things up and it just maybe on a business level too, if you have the right kind of mind, you could see where I got in. I

Speaker 3

mj3-12:51

Sometimes your best friends,

Speaker 2

mj3-12:59

Sometimes you can sit Lebanese, Greek, Greek. You can sense things that are going to happen to you. To me, I thought that was kind was a brash statement. He was sort of condemning all people to get into accidents or do things wrong because they don't have the proper mental perception. They don't have this feeling that he's talking about that they pick things up. You think he was condemning? I got the feeling that wasn't condemning him. He just saying that that's a fact, but we have all this information's available.

Speaker 1

mj3-13:49

I got the feeling that he wanted to sort of hit, drop the hint that he wanted to save mankind by giving him insights or teaching him to have that direct mind ability so that it could avoid accidents, avoid wars. I was wondering what was his thinking

Speaker 2

mj3-14:13

About? He thinks everybody has that power. Just everybody could see a bad business deal or see a proper move in their life. If they had, they could learn to listen to their feelings. You wouldn't avoid things he tell you that who? Sed? No. Well that's just a book I read. I don't think he was selling too much anything. I seemed like a pretty sincere person. This conviction. Talk about what you're going to talk about.

Speaker 3

mj3-15:11

Just to sum up something, I think the main thing is you got to practice between us and you have to find a word for it. A language for it. Whether it's going to be on the mundane level. Well you see the between. This is something that comes after this is what you

Speaker 2

mj3-15:26

Recognize actually there's a certain way of light that impairs the person. In other words, body chemistry, intuition, we were talking about this earlier, formed in and recently it's only found in the brain tissue itself in the membrane and this I think just the discovery in the last decades. Decades that it's the foundation and basis of I people for 10,000 years that they protected for magical rights. Also education and getting certain old athletes. There's a lot of things that can be, this entails people want, the thing is they don't want to respond. What I consider the dream that they into into a certain dream of enjoyment making come true. They make themselves come apart, eventually fertilize soil to make a mark. Everybody's going to fertilize soil. Make a, before you fertilize the soil most out of your energy with the use, the amount of scar.

mj3-17:27

This is the point. It's funny they said about boxers just this about a month ago that they talked about the fact that they used to conserve. They didn't sleep with their wives or the guys that were married sleep with their wives while they were training back now. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. This is the new age I predicted 10 years ago. There's only going to be a handful of people in this country. It's going to survive the sanctification of perversion, sanctification of all sexuality, any sort and the thing is everybody's, everybody else can treat the other public sweet and the result is this. The younger generation, one time certain religious that's going the board does all the nuns and priests, not all, but so it discoveries I think are coming in a good time. I know now that there's no athletes. You never hear of them an being retraining himself. They're coming out with evidence. You produce evidence on either side. You can always bring out an argument. Here's one guy that you can stimulate yourself, stimulate themselves out. The whole system was that, oh, that was Jack or that they asked him about that

Speaker 1

mj3-19:47

Said when he went in, he just went nuts.

Speaker 2

mj3-19:58

Was that the guy the girl was dating on? He was real jealous and she wasn't having sex with her and he was always, remember I saw that movie. I thought what they were trying to portray in at least movie was that he was really jealous because he was settled. You get that? I didn't see the movie. I just heard read about it. He was, yeah, and he said that it seemed like that's what they were doing or Pok being it. Well, anyhow, this was again, I guess from beginning of time of reason the walls seems maybe that people were more intuitive or had more of this knowledge about what you're talking about years ago where before the technologies.

=== File mj4 ===
Time: 16:11

Speaker 1

mj4-00:07

Reason the walls, it seems maybe that people were more intuitive or had more of this knowledge, but we're talking about years ago maybe where before the high technologies and what's happened is you've got a lot of high technology now and people are engrossed 16 hours a day. We got all kinds of damn gimmicks, but you still work 16 hours a day and the bureaucratic mess is putting, it's good so that you've got to work about 30 days out the month or maybe more the cop on the corner time you, he must to your car away or he wants to find you to cross the line. See, everybody's out to grab the working man. You hear this in Congress today, the Democrat, the house, he wants to bring out taxes but there's no they know at the same time the millionaires, the big corporations, those people are being subsidized to pay taxes. They are getting subsidies. We're buying people. We we're bribing people, south Central America, but all the time as a little guy is going to be kept so damn can't.

mj4-01:31

Your only hope is become a millionaire. You a millionaire era. You're on your way to becoming a aire. So the most visible, I often thought this, jeez, these Rockefellers and people in a wonderful position just into their library and read those books, relax and have some account that take care of their business. You think they'd do it? Hell no. You see how they go, the guy that supposedly was the richest man in the world or ask him says, how much money do you have to make after he's made so much? Just a little more, just a little more left.

mj4-02:30

It's always just a little more. They have a wonderful opportunity and also to do exactly what they want do and educate their children. They do chemistry, come into the basement, some chemistry, do experiments, anything they wish they're out trying new sexual perversions or three Jack Kennedy, 1500 in the White House. There ain't nothing wrong with him getting killed. He him happy so much. The whole thing is I can, the mistake that I made in most of direct approach, nobody in a lecture wants to be told they three chickens and one the public generally likes to these people, especially on the west coast, they don't say anything. They don't basically say anything.

mj4-05:12

He never opposed anything, anything. A and all these people who are making millions on our so-called adults, they're, whenever you put you touch sensitive, I start to, they'll sit there and they not pay any intention. Oh, once they'll catch it, understanding wider, see look desperate way out. They jump up and then make it out the door because this is no good to have to along these you don't STAs. I believe that these correlations, I'm talking about all sorts of on businesses possible. Once I get more, I find out that it's the ed just like you up and talk about S you can't talk about yourself and everybody in the group could be talking about themselves to a certain degree too much about themselves.

mj4-08:09

He was, people will listen to that. He hadn't the real rock. He was fairly un when was four up beyond doing public speaking. Hold them and then you're dealing. Then the next time you get back you'll come to here. You get then another little firecracker. You can't give revelation but I think you can is put together to solve. It's a combination of, I watched this guy on tv, his presentation in, he was an emotional speaker. This somehow don't anybody, it's a funny thing you'd to church every one to church. Church and you know what they do in there? They get up father, but he could use those 50 words backwards and pull it upside down inter arms around. He was very em.

mj4-10:50

He gave a bible verse out, tie, repeat himself 10 times, repeat the same phrase, shouting the thing was held the attention with that shena and he was holding the attention and then the I through ahead. Maybe that sounds reasonable, but you start to become involved in the state of mind. Your state of mind is to merge with and guy seems sincere, absurd, but they don't say anything. It isn't what they say and that is it's all what they project by virtue of a great, you might say hypnotic flurry, waving the arms, jumping up and down and saying emotional things about Jesus and terrible things.

mj4-12:13

But I think the most effective thing is there's a lot of literature. You guys are not picking it up. This is thing, there's a lot of literature on what we're talking about and I am real with some of these. I never C brain ries. It has a lot of this stuff is validating intuition. Thousands of thousands of years of people philoso. This is validating their lifestyle and their power to produce miracles, power to do certain things. You see, it's limited. It's limited. All this energy in the direction of, I don't think that this is absolutely necessary. Of course, I think one thing more important, another person project in the mind of transmission, only one do prophecy and they just sit, look into the space time continuum and give you reading.

mj4-13:35

But again, I don't see quite the need. If your mind should function in any direction, anything you should do. In other words, when you read a book you should be able to see and about going down the desert, they down the there they would walk and look at these old statues and try to visualize what happened there type of people lived there and what they, and of course whoever was their teacher was trying to call forth their intuition with that proper intuition. They have a direct mind of view of what was going on. Piece the culture. This is one statue that can reproduce the whole picture culture. Well that's does that. I've seen people do this Inva, Ohio Road to Pittsburgh. I worked in a roadhouse as Taver steak house and there was an nobody, he'd a break. He told me he had the ability to amazing. He said, well, I demonstration, so I gave him a ball point back in the.

=== File mj5 ===
Time: 30:26

Speaker 1

mj5-00:04

It's because they don't really have a perfect, they got it perfect to say no, but the person thinks, well I've got a feeling I join the marine. My intuition is that I'll be successful. Or maybe some idea glamor, some uniform or whatever, but these intuitions may be, I big part of it are subject to anger. The only deal for instance, I know that lies about their husband. They almost, this is tied talk about, it's tied to some mundane ego but yet it works out tremendous anxiety. That tremendous anxiety sometimes brings about, it does experience too, which will bring you to mind but that's only after this age are gone. The ESP is something that you can practice that only it'll be limited to some extent. It's a higher mind type of operation. It's tele, it's like a mentality to table is it looks like direct mind but they discovered its shape even by using a simple piece of cardboard like this and put it under the table with different places.

mj5-02:01

The table dropped a whole bunch of series found out exactly which an angle went up under the very center of the table inte intelligence to pick the very center of that table to lift straight up in the air. Now that's physical but somebody think that's strict. Fine. There are a lot of things that people can do. There's an energy that you can heal people. Here's the difference. I maintain that Christ heal people with physical energy. That's called actually project sympathy and desire. A nurse could work in the hospital. Nurses are told don't be sympathy towards your patients. You get that's a transfer of energy, so that's healing. That means direct. My healing has no loss of energy and I mentioned this in one of several of my lectures about talking to a fellow up in about and Ambrose out

Speaker 2

mj5-03:23

Dead

Speaker 1

mj5-03:32

Guy and I said I got a feeling that they use some type of healing, which a conventional that you see where people lighting their hands on other people and taking their, didn't know anything about, he'd run a old machine shop there, he read too many books. Absolutely, but you have to be able to somehow tap that. You have to be able to somehow use it. Now both words are bad. You don't use, it's like saying that you would use the ocean to prop a boat.

Speaker 2

mj5-04:35

The ocean going to stay right where it's at car because the boat went

Speaker 1

mj5-04:46

Sail. In other words, the direct mind when it's working is a effortless thing. It corresponds to an old istic law. I understand. I used to put books imagination to what you want. It must not be

Speaker 2

mj5-05:56

The direct line, just that's what happens because a person has ability to reach the higher awareness to the illusion or something doesn't mean that he can affect direct mind. Right. He's not charge anything. He's not,

Speaker 1

mj5-06:16

You're still a unit that help but you're able, like I said, the of out here generations of the trees out and plant, drain and change the field occurrence of the field because there's a limit to what they're allowed to do in a lifetime. Many, there's a limit but they try to go beyond that. It's the story of the old drop dead flower. Try to push beyond it. You drop dead and the same way it's the actual use of it. It's not more than, like I said, a demonstration to perhaps encourage somebody else to their entire mind. This is the most valuable part. It's certainly commodity.

Speaker 2

mj5-07:27

The only value human life people on the ladder. The ladder. This

Speaker 1

mj5-07:34

Is a law. It isn't that there's a value. It's like a reciprocating, right? Right. It's 10 million mines in the ocean around go nowhere. My wife 10 million mice. The mice consolidate and say here's how we can protect ourselves from the cap until we find out what the hell we are. Then 10 out of 10 billion survive who they're, that's basically,

Speaker 3

mj5-09:06

Would you consider it as

Speaker 1

mj5-09:08

Being technique? Oh yeah. The way you hold your head, you your head. It's not too complex. You

Speaker 2

mj5-09:32

Learn how to do it. It seems that you're going to develop a technique to will something and then forget it. If you bring it into being, that's going to make you

Speaker 1

mj5-09:51

Because as soon as you paused anything, you immediately negated. You linger with that negation. In other words, you say I want this and you want it intensely. I want them immediately used believe in the opposite. You create law. A lot of forces are accept action with repetitious hunger. Create the so have.

mj5-10:30

That's what we talking about between a way that you have to hold your, you say between what don't whats I think you understand what I'm saying. To give you an example, best way I can tell you is to give you an example. The first time that happened wife, I was sitting in a put hand on her head. Head. So I went over and I didn't even believe it was the idea. I thought when I went over put my head had impulse pull, the headache happened. Since then I've been doing, I thought you were of the, you say you put your hand on her. Yeah, I've been doing that lately. Headaches, stomach muscle and my hands get put my mind in the state of deep meditation

Speaker 2

mj5-12:33

That

Speaker 1

mj5-12:39

It surprised me though. I had somebody here day had a migraine headache and they didn't believe it. Migraine. Yeah. Well of course right now, see right now today I'm my bio rhythm way down, down intellectual low. Yeah, I remember you telling me about that before I, what you telling me about before put they say the hands get like what I do, I concentrate. It's the same state you reach when you go real deep beyond the mind and the body state of just, it's the same state. Only year 20 truth of the matter is, but there seems to be an energy there that like tuned into the universal mind or the universal force or whatever that pervades everything within and without, well that's the, I think what truth did you as a result of an impulse and that's exactly what I did. I mean I had no logical reason. I took home training for, I didn't believe it. I thought it was a bunch of nonsense. It just happened but it happened so many times, so many people here lately that I noted other people that this one person who I say came with the migraine and just like that and an interesting thing was with this young girl that rubbing her back out.

mj5-14:33

I had a chiropractor I used to adjust his back just anyway, her back is so messed up. I put my hands on her before I out and you got to do it with your fingers see and I would put my hands down the spine and process to see where the distort adjust vertical the chiropractor do. But I just was about ready to give up, said all, no, I knew it was going to take a tremendous amount of to get all that out, I had to really rub it and everything so I just put my hands on there and concentrated and put my mind at stake and they heated. UPT was all loose, all spasm.

Speaker 2

mj5-15:47

Looks like it's photography

Speaker 1

mj5-15:54

So much. We don't know. I think it right inside that box on the left, just reach down and get a couple of, how about you giving us what

Speaker 3

mj5-16:52

I have the everything attunement, the manifested mind in the development of metal powers mine and also the transmission. The fact the direct mine also being the directing mind, transmitting mine of getting scenery and changing the projectors manifest mind as far as the development, I have development being attunement with the manifested mind and type of light most conducive to developing, which in turn I, you have to have tremendous effort along with you have to have some way that you can push your limits and also the removal. What was your first definition? I couldn't hear it too much. The attunement with that which is projecting attunement, that which is project all projection. There was a question I was going to throw out. It came up when we were discussing this and this people trying to figure out, I think there's a lot of people in group about it. That's how this fits in with, I get some ideas about how this fits in with the rest of the teaching. How this fits in with the system, with the psychology observer. Whether this is something that is just totally new or whether this is something that

Speaker 1

mj5-18:41

One not only in terms of different word definition but more or less demonstrate. In other words, how do you demonstrate other people's writing? Baker is the work of the manifest. That's the basis of Christian science. The ability to change this dimension, which is not too real about mind power and she's not talking about the relative talking about changing. Actually changing is the same

Speaker 4

mj5-20:07

Position. I dunno if you not, I was reading something about him recently. His idea was trick use the people he was trying to heal. Anyway, his argument one that God was all perfect, therefore everything he created was perfect. Therefore illness is imaginary, imaginary projection of your imperfect mind. And if he was dealing with the above people that believed in the perfection of God, the logic of that would cause them their mind to maybe go into a between where they would it wasn't real.

Speaker 1

mj5-20:47

The difficulty is that that is he, while let's say biasly leading them, he's leading them with a lie and the result is that those people can never really know what happens. It may accidentally as a result of, but first number one is God remains un defined and the undefined God gets blame for everything that happens now. It isn't the imagination of people. This projection, this plea, that show is as real as everything you'll know until you know something better and after you know something better, after you're dead or after you look transcendent and look back, this is still real. This is still very real. This is real as a picture.

Speaker 2

mj5-21:50

Dimens,

Speaker 1

mj5-21:56

No your sympathies. When you die and you have any consciousness of your relatives, these relatives, seemingly I will still be the focus of your attention. I dunno when that would ever come about.

Speaker 2

mj5-22:32

The fact

Speaker 4

mj5-22:32

That an individual does not know who he is, does not have understanding of his own awareness and he attaches the people around him and his relatives and the loved ones and the people that he is living with, he attaches himself to those people. That means that, yeah, his whole life is not one of defining himself but more of being aware of other people. So when those other people are taken from him, he's

Speaker 1

mj5-23:11

Left with nothing. Even though those people become very deliberate from George Blazer said, we're all this together. In other words, we all believe all that you're supposed to go out and make a nickel for. We all believe not all this. There's a whole lot of stuff. We all believe that the sky is there and the sun rises and sexes and because of this you can't take one person by healing, by saying the true imagination causing this. The only thing qui could say in all honesty is God's imagination. He didn't say

Speaker 4

mj5-24:10

Imagination caused it. He didn't know what caused it.

Speaker 1

mj5-24:17

The blame is placed the upon. This is the thing. Warn Earhart, the individual. Scientology claims the individual. Christianity claims the individual. You're a sinner. Krishna's the individual. To me, this is nonsense. We we're all stuck with the same paradigm. Paradigm. Now you can't. You are one person. What I said by telling them, the guy that he is came back. This is not telling the truth, the reason we're not very popular because we don't have any collective. And of course that's the only reason you guys years. Other words, you can't trade one another, not police can't by God. I no consciousness. If you're not, you want to use the word I don't use it, but I think this is the thing that I don't know, even though I had this experience, what the hell is God going down here? Solution.

Speaker 4

mj5-26:04

In other words, why project somebody

Speaker 1

mj5-26:06

Down here for discover really millions, millions of peoples so struggle to find your way back to simplicity, complexity, simplicity.

Speaker 2

mj5-26:23

Wonder.

Speaker 1

mj5-26:29

Yeah,

mj5-26:39

Well I think it's even conceivable. I wouldn't want translation the way I was translated. And so they created a trough of their place. Creation, speed, tr of their, in other words, dichotomized themselves. Dicho. Again, when you transcend this dimension and you go beyond the unmanifest, the pure absolute reality, you may not be absolute reality as much as traveling there sort of naked about the body, the absolute use. You could be traveling there without it being contact with everything wasn't absolutely nothing. Everything I see I from that. In other words, absolute can be right, right. That's what I, all you can do is all you can do is be prepared. That's all that theory about we're entering this aquar hundred.

mj5-28:58

We have to go into the mental age and golden age and it's repeating itself from the time of land. Supposed to enter the golden age for another 7,000 years and a man is just coming out of the dark age. So every time there seemed to be certain evolved people that had Christ conquer like Christ or Buddha, but now it seems like these things are becoming more widespread, this universal forces universal mind population. But I do say that I think society things are happening today. A lot of this stuff on the mark. I guess nothing but hypnosis. They were happening. We had wave of this before all. Yeah, there were just fewer.

=== File mj6 ===
Time: 30:16

Speaker 1

mj6-00:03

Right. The people

Speaker 2

mj6-00:04

That didn't let it out, I don't quite think the opposite are worse, better, more absolute lying alongside all this knowledge. Well, what's the great friend epitomized? Billy Graham gets up there, wants us to do this. What the hell? Would he know what he, he's talking about a first being that talked to him. I He's liar. Living liar. He did know I'd like to some details I like produce some details. He had a conversation with God. What say did he talk about the stock market or so astute, God's making mistake. He made a mistake back here about 10, 20 years ago. We got the atomic bomb. He was asleep while was making the bomb. It ire as hell guys that are so the word God. Yeah. All luck. Lot of people understand affirmative man wanted so many a fathers, so many Hail Marys. He wanted to sure a way to heaven but there's a lot of people that couldn't comprehend anything. Even different religions like Hinduism always had different things for different people. They had B yoga like the prisons used for Catholic devotion and they had what? Mosha was a higher type of yoga similar to zen or satori or the Buddhists had, there was different things for different people. Some people

mj6-02:32

Today says we were put here just like we put in jail and all efforts are made as soon as you come up with a religion, the truth of an honest person, Christ is an honest man. As soon as he dies You mean you don't think get beyond the human condition of grief and possibility and selfishness. Well yeah. We're entering now period of like Orwell's 19 80, 84 of player Ana by Kurt. I mean the whole system seems like the government's taken over mine. It's government. It's just that every time there's a mass movement knows another old thing.

mj6-03:35

Can't say there's only so many allowed on the earth that you got to speak out. Talking about climate, you get any great crusade example of a whole group of people that once they showed that they had a real power. People are scared of that. Right? Theism. The massacre mysticism is the system where people get together who one thing they have in common is that they just can't seem to get along with the overall society. George. They can or can. They're outmaneuvering. You got somebody we're hanging by springs and somebody's pulling the we're so they have more democratic system where there's more a system out there is all power relationship democratic system. I mean here you have more democratic than

Speaker 1

mj6-04:57

That poem that you wrote in the beginning of the book Psychology.

Speaker 2

mj6-05:06

Yeah. I thought

mj6-05:15

Yeah, we cannot, you're dealing with a mathematical problem that's reason you have to have a direct mind. Right. There must be people that are spiritually by the price that talk to ordinary people have ability to get in and beyond these other dimensions. Nobody can understand that they were at that level too. It's not really saying anything. I'm saying that there must be something beyond something we highly evolved spirits around wouldn't even discuss it with unless there were other people at their level. It must go on and on and on and on. That's what I'm saying. I agree. You go way down to the ignorance. We're grateful that completely they didn't think that they're thinking is them and they're doing and then you have the person questions. Well maybe there's something beyond the thinking. It just goes on endlessly and endlessly on and on and on and we just don't, tires start. It gets tires before it's too far to go get a bottle of whiskey and

Speaker 3

mj6-07:17

You were talking about the higher mind and the idea of healing people and people try to get psychiatric help. They can't really be helped because what they're trying, the way I see it is if the psychiatrist or psychologist doesn't recognize the possibility of a higher mind or another observation state, they're treating something that a person doesn't really like. You say there's no such thing as a mental illness. That's the date. Rather than getting behind it using re They can't get beyond the reflexes. Yeah, right Limits.

Speaker 2

mj6-07:55

That's all they see. A declaration almost collectively made a declaration today has to agree with that declaration that it's a physical brain in the sealable. A physical mind in a sealable with physical drugs. That's it. And I say that isn't that only up the you more up more has state of mind. All it does is it harnesses the symptoms that are the guys up you hitting with the drug and it knock him down. What happened to me? You get him down. What effect did that have on his long range? Right, right, right. Get him him off the street and then if you're lucky him a little bit to get him back to taxes,

Speaker 1

mj6-08:54

You probably something similar to that. If you were in an isolated condition, you fall over in the middle of a or something carted you off and what about this one line, the talk about, is that the same direct line? No,

Speaker 2

mj6-09:40

No.

mj6-09:43

Basically it depends on, you have to ask two possibilities. One of 'em is being one but I think he's talking about cutting out, being one with your inner self or no ego. No ego. This is the thing that always me about of all these egos, all these eyes perform a more dynamic and powerful what animals, good psychologist, but I definition of to be one you have to be minus everything, not unify all those personalities. You have to subtract everything but we observe personality best described what it's not correct. We do that. Proposed definitions of what it's not. They never tell you what it's, but still there's conscious. Even when you go within to state beyond the body and the mind still deep, there's still a consciousness of certain awareness. Oh sure, sure. But there's also states beyond that. The reason you have hope is because certain people have been surrounded dead at were brought back and they had a memory of things that happened dead. You also have people that were truly out technically unconscious information while they babbled, which was it's, I would think that if a person did travel this road, the only thing you could do would be bow his head and be aware of what I mean is to be aware of, doesn't matter what you do, you could be on karma.

mj6-12:22

Doesn't matter what you do, what you don't do. Absolutely t peace of mind to be trouble to be concerned. What happens got to come out in the world. Yeah. Reject. You can reject the world same time. Live in it if you want. Go by and it'll go by quickly. Not the has everybody there's, there's always a hangup for something that's got way back, like I said, even have experience die alive to somebody. I think at that level there's certain things like passion and so forth where you, I don't mean being gift. Buddhism amazing.

Speaker 1

mj6-14:19

I got my grandfather about 95 told me don't take anything. I dunno if that's good for him to say. He must have been a smart,

Speaker 2

mj6-14:37

He was very smart. I see guy that's like a guy at 65

Speaker 1

mj6-15:10

Watching you. That's better.

Speaker 2

mj6-15:29

I am trying to be attached dec that's they've giving me hell Lately I've been kind of laying around lazy, working properly. It's like action and inaction

Speaker 1

mj6-16:25

Come and go. I hate to even

Speaker 3

mj6-16:30

I on like that because I don't usually talk that way. Humor, you're

Speaker 2

mj6-16:36

Out with a bunch of men. Their wive, they're dawning the husband like a, you ever hear of human liberation? That's where it's feminist because of the

Speaker 3

mj6-17:03

Sexist work. Whenever some woman says to me, I'm a feminist, then I say to her, but you're a sexist

Speaker 1

mj6-17:41

But why should you get through it? I mean look at all the

Speaker 2

mj6-17:44

Reinforcement you

Speaker 1

mj6-18:51

Okay? Direct mind a higher element being which is beyond the limitations attempt to beyond it while beyond thought. Direct mind experiences can occur as a result of test, so direct mind science should include the study of thought and such perception of emotions which can initiate direct mind experiences, direct mind the study that it should have as it center. However persons who are aware of direct mind, spiritual center to individual.

Speaker 2

mj6-19:45

One thing I wanted to mention you define, you're going to be the definitions given court. In other words, somebody says, do you know what does the guy say this stuff? This stuff isn't here because I'm here. There's not many thousands of incidents of direct mind, but this is

mj6-21:02

What we have to point to. Not particular. Particular. Of course if you want to a defamation, yeah. I'd say it's alright to say hey, pick up the contrast of illusion. Pick up the S book. Pick up psychology, but there's other books. The thing is somebody comes along and says, Hey, what do experience it for yourself more or less. Remove that whole thing until it is self, you don't care either have either experienced it or it's been pretty much laying down mathematical track. Okay, so what happens is what are we after the fact that somebody moves salt pepper and we know why. Okay, we're after the fact that somebody is healing somebody and we want to know why and are these common? Are there common denominators behind all these things and are we taking, is human waste taking the property approach to these things? Is there a mind?

mj6-22:45

You have to, all of this stuff has to come very carefully present a tremendous amount of phenomena with no explanation plausible except that you understand what I'm saying. In other words, it has to come out from the very basic beginning of, hey, my grandmother says my grandmother was able to remove wars. How did she remove wars? I'm not say my grand, somebody grand or the guy across the street did this. They did once, twice, twice. What happened? How did do this? We get out, were able to do strange and you go from there. You start to pile this up. You just can't say that this mind is an inferior mind. You can, but you're going to have to belabor your audience in things like corn press.

mj6-24:03

You're going to have to take contrast of and analyze and discuss it whether it can be this believable, whether it's worth or not, and Bob s book on the wisdom of the ole these things, Mary Baker, Eddie, this what happens here. If something results from, there must have been something result science practitioners now nothing. The movement would be dead. Something happens and then you get into these other things where footprint in the ceiling or something upside down. Chapel. Chapel, nobody's making any money off of it. Colon dead, all sorts of stuff. That sense the man and the steel mill or the coal mine or the farm. You can talk to him and this is what you have to do. You have to talk to him On his basis. On his basis.

mj6-25:56

Columbus Allice lived down Charleston. He told a whole valley of people some one thing, some another and of course I was amazed. It goes back to yes, you mean this place exists, this fiction book talking. No, it's not a fiction book. Everything in it, everything in, check it out, no moved over just I don't want to stop you in the, I don't doubt still there, but check it out. One of the incidents that nice guy on the other hand was more muscular was if you pick up those names, those names or not, you have to plug what kind of did they in? Nothing real sensational, but they certain people had the ability to cause things to happen. They saw entities, group family, group family, some people here and there. He was kind surprised when he got outside there, so everybody, electricity, they work outside.

=== File mj7 ===
Time: 18:33

Speaker 1

mj7-00:23

In a car, read a book while you went or meditate.

Speaker 2

mj7-00:44

It seems like in the past though, people were always working to just survive. If you had a wagon, had to have some way of feeding a horse and taking care of the animal, it's almost his whole life would be taken up doing the mundane things. But today it's not any better because you don't work all the time to make money to put food on your table, pay the taxes. I think the biggest drain on people's awareness is all the divergent television. That's what I'm

Speaker 1

mj7-01:24

Saying. Sports part Pittsburgh that cost a certain cost. Depreciation run over bucks. Freedom. If you don't trade it in every four years, you'll under repair. You make one trip to Pittsburgh life. What I'm talking about is personal experience. I can remember we lived right there where we lived down and we used to have visitors in the street and they put them all up for the night once a year family problem. But they had time to do that. There was no draw. Hard time passed the tide. The woman of the house had a piano. Piano was of the piano. The piano. But what I'm saying is those people lot the horses and sew stuff and still have more time. The world

Speaker 3

mj7-03:17

Village, he went back to city, he went down to the local temple. Two years old people. So semi time around enough to the same way. Korea had a

Speaker 1

mj7-03:44

Tremendous information. Everybody if person write poetry, he was respect came out Korea

Speaker 3

mj7-04:01

S about it or whoever hears of a modern Japanese farmer, traditional country between correspond to,

Speaker 1

mj7-04:38

I could see the re reflection of because they this house we moved here. No, I think it used to be you had a desert, old men desert to against the long

mj7-05:46

Use. The old, including the old time religion in back then more people believed in traditional religion. A lot of that stuff was being challenged. Maybe there's some value in, I think there were challenges going against conformity to when I was a kid, I didn't see how question church or Oh yeah, you're talking about your family and my family. Other people did. This guy Martin Luther did this guy. They were knew. See that's what I always thought. The fact that old days early Christians were more quiet. But see, today you have all these writings that you have. You have all stuff back writing. Nothing was written before. 1500. Don't George, any that you make ride to escape, lead your own manufacturing of greater obstacles than that's what I think will happen Greater. Yeah. What you're doing, what we're trying to do, we're trying to escape. We're trying to pause five times technology, have

mj7-07:35

Books, computers, instantaneous information, computer, instantaneous information from all over the world by television all over the world. Yet we are getting more, not more materialistic. We're not even good animals. Average American. Somebody said that one out of seven people in this country. What One in five? That's supposedly it's one in five in the adult population. Stay I minutes. The same. One is two is a lot of goodness. I stopped buying it before her. This friend of mine lives, lives San Francisco. He's a female friend who she found out about her research started and I read an article in being spread by life in the communities where there are a lot of gay people.

mj7-10:56

All these weird new bacterial virus intestines, like these fatal diseases that mimic symptoms. Well here's what happens. Some of these men have mixed anal and oral and all kind of sex putting things where basically it's like how you e coli, that's for bacteria to get married to somebody claiming you. Lemme put it to you this way. I was not ever, on the other hand, I would not have long, so I mean I did get around some and I'll do it all kind of psychotic behavior. Especially in other words. Okay, but that's easy to answer. Just an emotional, I mean that I handled it. I had certain rules, but I accepted myself. For instance, I would not lie, I would not have myself lying.

mj7-13:29

I always put at least one menstrual period between, so I anything just so I would know. I had four myself. I, but now forget it because there's no way I don't have somebody then somebody carry You didn't know they have it and they didn't know They have it understanding. Well let's put it this way. The woman can see the organ and there's nothing on it. She gets Explain that a friend mine you, somebody hass in their eyes. It looks like I collect this way. Frank Doesn't do his homework. I figured know. Sorry Frank, I'm this yourself. He asked his soul. Hey, it doesn't fantastic. Trying to capture some, we'll write it down in trailer. You shoulda I know. Answered.

== Footnotes ==

== End ==
</div>

1982-0417-DM-version-Spring-TAT-Mtg-Rose-and-Burns-test-2

2026-01-04T05:07:46Z

Dmadmin: Paste 1st pass Auto-AI

{{Page header}}
[[Category:1980s]]
[[Category:1982-0417]]
<div id="widthlimiter">
== To Do ==

== Notes ==
Files

dm0 -- 14:05

dm1 -- 29:49

dm2 -- 30:12

dm3 -- missing

dm4 -- missing

dm5 -- 30:02

dm6 -- 30:48

dm7 -- 30:04 -- waiting reset

dm8 -- 30:28 -- waiting reset

dm9 -- 12:39

dm-version 2 tape side 1 -- 29:50 - might be #3 -- waiting reset

dm-version-2 tape side 2 -- 28:55 - might be #4 -- waiting reset

See spreadsheet "Rose Mettle"

== Transcription ==

=== File dm0 ===
Time: 14:05

Speaker 1

dm0-00:09

Because them actually, his nut is a fruitcake. What George? No, that's the truth. It doesn't necessarily cast any doubt upon what I say because the nuttiest bastard on earth can tell the truth, but I really am, I'm as rammy a Billy goat and I don't particularly like it, but there's not much I can do about it. What's your label? Oh, paranoid schizophrenic. The most popular. You have that really

Speaker 2

dm0-00:38

Shooting in your

Speaker 1

dm0-00:39

Mind all the time? Well, no. I'll tell you a funny thing about the sick quote.

Speaker 2

dm0-00:45

Most schizo, they put personality, the mind is hard to control because you've got all kinds of stimulation, but the psychotic state where you have certain periods of warmness, like in the mystical experiences, right?

Speaker 1

dm0-00:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2

dm0-00:58

Paranoia type. That's

Speaker 1

dm0-00:59

They're out to get you. Yeah. Well, I'm not only check your coffee. No, it is true. I am just a shambles compared to what I once was, but not the hell. I'm convinced that the teens are the only time when you're really able to be vitally active in this area. There are very few people that can, some can, but there are very few people that can achieve much of it. After the age of 20, you can build up a hell of a memory of events in your life and all the rest of that. Although there are some parts of it that continue on this business about the phones is That's one of the strangest ICSP type thing. Yeah. Clairvoyance. Clairvoyance, probably more than anything.

Speaker 2

dm0-01:51

People have that sometimes when it can be a handicap too, because you walk into a room and know everybody's thought.

Speaker 1

dm0-02:00

Drive you nuts. That's great. I've known people that had that problem and the psychiatrist had their hands on 'em and they drug you into a complete, complete oblivion. You can't think at all. I couldn't stand that, but I spent years fighting with the doctors in the hospitals.

Speaker 2

dm0-02:17

That's why they say you should get mind and body control first. It sounds to me like we really went deep with them.

Speaker 1

dm0-02:22

Yeah.

Speaker 2

dm0-02:24

Control what you

Speaker 1

dm0-02:27

To learn how to do. That took a lot of knocks. It took a lot of bumps along the inner road to learn how to do that. In other words, here's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2

dm0-02:37

Did you get there though, and not able to come out?

Speaker 1

dm0-02:39

No. No. The trouble was always getting there. All you have to do with any of these states if you want to get out of it, is go to sleep. If you say to yourself, well, I think I'll go to sleep now. You just go to sleep and just like quick. You're back together again. When you wake up, it's gone. Well. It's not true, but rarely, most of the time when I was doing my meditation because of the practical circumstances involved, it was at nighttime after dinner and what have you, and when I would go to sleep, I'd wake up in the morning instead of coming to back, but occasionally I would wake back up and sit. But

Speaker 2

dm0-03:13

You'd be able to do this while you were awake, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1

dm0-03:15

From the waking state, you'd changes, it's not the same, but you

Speaker 2

dm0-03:18

Went deep into meditation. State awareness. Go beyond that. The state of not being aware of the moment gone on before and maybe going to where there's no mind, no body, just awareness like another dimension. It is it cognitive. It happened to me. It was a very much of a shock I had experienced going with him. That's where it starts, right? Going down with to, of course, the mind's completely empty. You go within and the body is, breath slows down three or four rest a minute. You're really deep. The same way if your eyes are awake or closed, the same thing, somebody comes in the room and talks to you, you can even answer. You're aware. You don't really come out of that too fast and I had a few experiences where I kind of come back to myself and wonder where it was. You know what I mean? It would be not aware of the moment gone on before and you come out of that. Everything's very sharp, very much when you come out of there. Here it's very blissful. You bring the state out with you least, but the first one that happened, everything dropped off. I mean, I shook the shit out. That's another realm altogether. Yeah, but I mean you'd think you'd be able to meditate now and what happens when you meditate now? I can't meditate. That's the trouble where things come.

Speaker 1

dm0-04:42

No. What I think happened is the tool was necessary for me at the time and it just outlived its usefulness. I think that if there was any real need for me to do it now, I would be able to.

Speaker 2

dm0-04:56

What do you mean you can't meditate?

Speaker 1

dm0-04:58

I can't meditate. In other words,

Speaker 2

dm0-04:59

Your mind comes full things.

Speaker 1

dm0-05:01

Yeah. Right.

Speaker 2

dm0-05:03

That's what happens in schizophrenia, but I mean, the thing is you really have a classical height of that or yours is your something that leads into the mystic.

Speaker 1

dm0-05:15

I think it's a damn fine line between them.

Speaker 2

dm0-05:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1

dm0-05:20

It's a damn fine line between them. You have

Speaker 2

dm0-05:22

To take medication.

Speaker 1

dm0-05:23

I have been here for the last couple months. I've been off it for 10 years

Speaker 2

dm0-05:28

Off medication. You've been taking it

Speaker 1

dm0-05:31

A little bit, but not a great deal. I am against it. I fight tooth and nail, but it guts a goddamn rough for me over Christmas that I had to get some help somewhere.

Speaker 2

dm0-05:42

Yeah. Glad he built and everybody's out to get you and get into that cyclonic insight. Pretty rough.

Speaker 1

dm0-05:49

Yeah, it is. Believe

Speaker 2

dm0-05:52

You see that, but there are five lines between that and mystical.

Speaker 1

dm0-05:57

That's right. That one is only a confusion of the other. I believe. It's just a matter of being not quite, having your pins down. In other words, you're not convinced of your own insight. You lose the ability to believe yourself and you're searching for something. That's what happens to me, and I wind up imagining that things around me are able to help me see things clearly when it isn't the case, but I'm not bothered too much by that. I haven't had any real trouble with it for years.

Speaker 2

dm0-06:38

Yeah. Well that's part of it. You see clues and you think those clues are somewhat, see, that's not, but you had this quietness of the meditation. I mean the No mind you think if you could put yourself back into that again, you would.

Speaker 1

dm0-06:56

That's the reason I keep trying.

Speaker 2

dm0-06:59

That's the, that's where it's at. For me not seeing the signs. That's kind of the other

Speaker 1

dm0-07:05

Side of it.

Speaker 2

dm0-07:06

That's the rebound over into that area. Instead

Speaker 1

dm0-07:08

Of going, the problem is here's the fence and here's the hole and here's the hose, and instead of the water going through the hole, you start hitting the edges. That's what happens.

Speaker 2

dm0-07:20

Yeah, yeah. It's rebound.

Speaker 1

dm0-07:22

Yeah. It's bouncing around. It's not getting exactly what it's trying to find out.

Speaker 2

dm0-07:27

Maybe you just have to spend a certain time to go

Speaker 1

dm0-07:30

Through this. That's what I think. I think. Well, I know. I mean, I've been so much better in recent years than,

Speaker 2

dm0-07:41

But you're aware of a lot of, see, the thing is a lot of people aren't aware of this

Speaker 1

dm0-07:44

Mostly. Mostly,

Speaker 2

dm0-07:45

Right? Well, there's nothing. There's no problem here.

Speaker 1

dm0-07:48

Yeah.

Speaker 2

dm0-07:48

You're able to observe yourself. That's probably because of all that.

Speaker 1

dm0-07:52

That's right. That's why I make the remark. If I hadn't had the meditation, it would've locked me up and thrown away the key. I would've had no way of getting back out of the trap.

Speaker 3

dm0-08:01

Yeah,

Speaker 2

dm0-08:02

You'd

Speaker 1

dm0-08:02

Be locked. That's right.

Speaker 2

dm0-08:04

That's right. That maybe you have some destiny, maybe your destinies to help other people.

Speaker 1

dm0-08:11

That's what all the sightings I run into keep telling me. They keep telling me I got another five years to go before I break out destinies to help other people conditioners maybe. I hope so. I'd sure like to get some plus out of it.

Speaker 2

dm0-08:26

Yeah. We own our own private trap.

Speaker 1

dm0-08:29

That's right.

Speaker 2

dm0-08:34

I don't think most people could understand that type of thing. No, they can't. They can't at all. Unless you've had certain experiences or work with it. Yeah,

Speaker 1

dm0-08:43

Way out. That's what's wrong with the psychiatrist. They're sitting there trying to tell you about something they know nothing about.

Speaker 2

dm0-08:48

They diagnose a mystical experience. They diagnose it all with schizophrenia. They say it's a withdrawal from reality, but mystic experiences are being right into reality. Well, of course that's what's wrong, but there's a fine line between the things. It's true. They don't know the difference. They sure don't. They think that, well, maybe your job is, maybe you have the job of combining them. It's

Speaker 1

dm0-09:12

Slab to turn up to that. I'll tell you, after 20 years of going down the buckhouse lane,

Speaker 2

dm0-09:18

I'd like to see the profit. Yeah, but if you reach that level that you had, you're not going through this for nothing. Sure. Maybe your destination combined, you know what I mean? That's what you're

Speaker 4

dm0-09:33

Here to do. Lemme see one of those smokes going through all the sandwiches again. There's plenty, and I can make them up if you eat 'em all over here. I I've

Speaker 5

dm0-09:51

Seen it in the store. Oh my God. Am I relieved to see you? I thought I was going to get treated here. How long ago did you get here? We got here long time we Oh, you came. I got here. Oh, right. Whenever you walked in. Yeah. Did you come down with Bill

Speaker 1

dm0-10:14

Or what?

Speaker 6

dm0-10:15

Yeah,

Speaker 1

dm0-10:16

We knew you. I'm afraid of, that's the reason I'm walking very carefully with this basket. Eggs.

Speaker 2

dm0-10:24

The thing is, it seems to me like the meditation you did, you get into pure sensation. That's right. To where thinking mind supposedly becomes purified and you can think if you want or not. But that's when the mine awareness. Now, this is a state of being, which is different than the ordinary persons who's neurotic, who, because their mines just a box. What happens? They see something and then of course the mind reflects of one, and of course with their own frame of reference, they reflect on the thinking. No, we got the idea of going within is you can purify the mine to where you can see intuitive, to see what's really there. So the way you went there, you went completely to a state of going within to the height of it all away from the neurotic, and now you've rebounded into a state where the mind, when you see things, there's all kinds of things coming.

Speaker 1

dm0-11:45

That's

Speaker 2

dm0-11:45

The schizophrenia type thing or the split personality. Now what the hell happened? I mean, that's weird. I know. Huh? I know Sophie. He doesn't find out, huh? Yeah. Right. I mean

Speaker 1

dm0-12:00

That is the way out. I'll tell you what, I've never heard of anybody that ever had the problem.

Speaker 2

dm0-12:05

I never knew of anybody that was able to combine those two things. Usually. What's you think schizophrenia and what would the quality of going on mind with body and meditation was stated just beyond being. That's just the state. The other dimensions you were in. That's right. I see. In the middle is the neurotic state of the ordinary person whose mine. There's probably quite a few. They never come back.

Speaker 1

dm0-12:29

That's right. The hospitals were full of

Speaker 4

dm0-12:31

It.

Speaker 6

dm0-12:32

Well, there's this man that wrote this book. He thought that the line between our religious experience going insane was so fine as to be virtually. That's true. The only way that you could know was by the fruits. That's right. If the person came out of whatever and was making a contribution to society, what's his name? George Fox that started the Quaker Movement

Speaker 3

dm0-12:51

French

Speaker 6

dm0-12:52

Society. The man was nut, but he was making a

Speaker 5

dm0-12:55

Contribution to society. I'd rather be nothing. Make contribution to No. He said that the difference between somebody who by their shop. Right.

Speaker 3

dm0-13:09

This man believed that there was such a thing as Justin Insanity, but that all the things, the captain in candy weren't necessarily insanity. Some of them were people who were very enlight

Speaker 4

dm0-13:23

Association. Be Observ first. You're going to copy come here at seven o'clock the morning for lessons.

Speaker 3

dm0-13:35

We'll be here seven you.

Speaker 5

dm0-13:56

This stuff. Really? I.

=== File dm1 ===
Time: 29:49

Speaker 1

dm1-00:01

As soon as we get the bomb shelter built on the hill, with that membership going up, we're going to have to be careful who we let asking some questions each person. Frank. Frank, I'd like to do that.

Speaker 2

dm1-00:26

Hey, Mr. Rose. One thing I thought about was if you asked other people, they may pick up things from other, like when we did it the first time, everybody wrote down what they thought. The only reason I say that is because then you've got something in front of you you can look at after you get the information. In other words, if you ask me and I say something may contribute to somebody, I don't know. I thought about bringing pencil and paper just for the idea of what does direct mind ability or direct mind science mean to you? What is it? How does it, I got plenty of paper, Frank. There're small pieces too, by the phone. Then you can ask questions individually. Oh, those

Speaker 1

dm1-01:03

Are too small. Yeah. I'll see if I can,

Speaker 2

dm1-01:05

We got paper here. Tim got a tablet. Well, we'll get and fourth, being aware of various, your own states of mind and how they influence your actions. Okay. Other words for you? Direct mind. Is intuition the same thing as intuition?

Speaker 3

dm1-01:22

Right?

Speaker 2

dm1-01:25

Can we ask what you think

Speaker 3

dm1-01:26

Intuition is? Just the ability to know things for what they really are. Situations where people or events, I dunno.

Speaker 2

dm1-01:41

It happens

Speaker 3

dm1-01:41

Once in a while. There's know the way something is and

Speaker 2

dm1-01:44

It's in other words like when Mr. Rose was talking about having an experience that he picks up the phone. He feels that somebody's dying gets a hunch like sed does that this is coming in through intuition, through your natural mental powers. Objection. Leading the witness. Ask a question. Overruled. I won't come out and tell him. I think he's wrong yet. Right? I mean, yeah. In other words, is

Speaker 3

dm1-02:18

It just, it may not be that dramatic. It may not be that dramatic, but just that knowing what the right thing is,

Speaker 2

dm1-02:26

Right. Do you connect in the intuition with just the mundane mind? In other words, with the faculties of perceiving with your senses? Is that what your idea of intuition is? That in other words, if somebody picks something up, they don't hear anything. There's no reason for him to pick up the phone if that moment, there's no logical reason. There's nothing that we could say by observation that at that moment he should feel some apprehension about his mother or Sedona should pick something up. Is intuition then just is it a function of the,

Speaker 1

dm1-03:05

In other words, what you're getting at is the factors. All the factors are not given in his definition of intuition, and that was what I was going to suggest, that probably somebody at this point could add to what they would amplify. In other words, it takes quite a range. It's evident that it takes a range beyond just being able to sort into, it's very true that, like I said, the person with intuition can under know or meet the author between the

Speaker 3

dm1-03:45

Lines. Wouldn't it make more sense to say that intuition is a direct mind ability?

Speaker 1

dm1-03:52

Well, yeah, but what's direct mind then? We were defining direct

Speaker 3

dm1-03:55

Mind. Yeah, but rather than saying that direct mind is intuition, that intuition is an ability that you have, if you are

Speaker 1

dm1-04:02

Capable of

Speaker 3

dm1-04:03

The direct

Speaker 1

dm1-04:04

Mind or contact, yes, but do you have any direct mind if you're not capable of intuition, you know what I mean? It comes before and after the cart comes after. What do you mean? Well, a person has a direct mind. Ly also has intuition, but if he doesn't have intuition, you'll never have direct mind. See,

Speaker 3

dm1-04:34

On the other hand, don't animals have direct mind, but they don't have intuition because they don't have a computer that logically analyzes things?

Speaker 1

dm1-04:41

Well, the ones I talked to, did

Speaker 3

dm1-04:51

I care to prove your point?

Speaker 4

dm1-04:54

I think the point that Paul had about knowing about knowledge, being sure of yourself or having a point of knowledge. Okay.

Speaker 1

dm1-05:11

It definitely a form of knowing. There's no doubt about it. It is a form of knowing.

Speaker 4

dm1-05:15

Okay. But yeah, this is what I'm saying, but it's achieved that knowledge to be able to say or to be able to know has a lot to do with it. In other words, if you don't,

Speaker 2

dm1-05:28

Well, we're saying, I think from what you said, Mr. Rose, there is a difference between intuition and direct mind ability. That's more that the question. Absolutely. See, he defined it as being the direct mind, being intuition, and what my question was, isn't there a difference between having intuition and having direct bilities? That's more or less what I was saying.

Speaker 1

dm1-05:50

The fact that you can use it to kill an animal means that it's not intuition alone. It is a kinetic force. See, this is what I'm saying. There's a whole field of things attached to it. Now see, this is what we're getting at. See that it's not, I'm afraid it has been in your minds here, people have been limited in the understanding of it. There's possibly a way. There's possibly a way of saying that. Anybody got a suggestion? Come on. There's a way of saying this as to what direct mind is that includes this reach more ahead.

Speaker 3

dm1-06:39

Well, it says the direct mind refers to a mine dimension, which transcends out of the individual. The individual can contact this mind or allow himself to be free from total identification with his individual mind and thus cause changes to occur in himself, others in the physical world, which would be regarded as miracles and the ability to make this contact is developed by a way of life involving inward focus of attention, conservation of energy, and directing one's life or living one's, understanding willfully.

Speaker 2

dm1-07:18

So that first part was

Speaker 3

dm1-07:20

The first part. If you look at it as a mind dimension from which this world springs, that you can contact that dimension and you can cause a change, like maybe killing an animal

Speaker 1

dm1-07:32

Or changing the weather, changing the spots on the dice. That's what they've been doing. See, this is a very good amplification. This is an amplification. That's a very good definition. It's a very good definition.

Speaker 4

dm1-07:51

What would be the difference of changing the spots and guessing the spots before there?

Speaker 1

dm1-07:56

Well, yeah. Well, if you were to guess the spots, this too would be direct mind, but this is what I say. There's a passive faculty. Then there's the, let's say, active or aggressive mentality too. In other words, which you actually reach out with your mind and do things. Now to understand that, I mean to get a reading on that or what goes on, we don't really know. We really don't know. Although in some cases you suspect a tensity, a mental tensity where the person, like the woman with the salt and pepper shakers that you move with her mind, see, you concentrate. Now that seemed to involve, that was the Russian woman seemed to involve at Tensity, but I mean there was some electric, I don't even think it would've been the ectoplasmic because there was a glass shield over it, but that electrical tensity that caused it to move you pick up papers or magazine articles every day were tremendous things. Tremendous motions are occurred by mental. Sometimes it's just a group of people that are getting together and thinking about something start to move. See, could she actually move

Speaker 3

dm1-09:24

Those things

Speaker 1

dm1-09:25

By?

Speaker 3

dm1-09:26

Hi Matt, you want to talk about table lifting where the arm comes out of the physical, but it's a physical that's an ectoplasmic extrusion. Yes. Would that be different from if she was able to just move the things totally with her mind and not

Speaker 1

dm1-09:47

Some physical? Well, the thing is, the difference is the medium in all these cases is generally unconscious of what's going on. Now, sometimes in direct mind operations, the person, the operator is not conscious of what's happening at the time it happens, but generally done because he desires it to happen. The time of it happening is where the lag is, but the medium, she becomes a or he becomes in a certain condition in which there is an extrusion of ectoplasmic energy, and this is one method of moving objects. It seems to be limited incidentally, they don't move everything. It's not the same as so-called port gas activity.

dm1-10:43

I think that all these things, I think your polar geist activity, for instance, if you examine what you have to do is, I say you have to read a lot on this stuff if you want to get a good understanding. The polar geist incidentally, is in a relative dimension, the same as an astro body is in a relative dimension. The mind is not a relative dimension. The mind is not a relative dimension. The somatic mind is, but not what we're talking about. What you're saying is the reaching into a mind dimension superior to the somatic mind dimension. The somatic mind dimension is one of reflex action. It's reflexive like behaviorists. Talk about. It's strictly a reflexive thing. Somebody suggests something to you, it goes in your ear and hits one of your hormones, and you come up with a horny thought that's reflexive. You know what I mean? Yes. Philosophy. Philosophy, true philosophy is not reflexive. The original start of the true philosophy might've been selfish and very objective. Okay, so what you're hitting though, what you said, if people can understand this, I wonder if they understand what you wrote is that this dimension, first of all is manifestly. Now, this is my explanation. Don't take it, read, study this stuff yourselves. My understanding of what happens is that this dimension is not real and it's with the full knowledge that this dimension is not real, that you're able to change the picture show. That's all it amounts to.

Speaker 4

dm1-12:23

Really, the only way you can have full knowledge that this dimension is not real is to go to the real dimension or defined real,

Speaker 1

dm1-12:31

Right? You have an upon it accidentally, but you encourage the accidents. It isn't a question of just a great spiritual life or any of that sort alone. I think that anybody that falls a habit of encouraging encouragingly success ratios will approach it closer and closer. In other words, you'll become attuned. It's a question of attuning. Now, these things, then there'll be a time happen when I know it happened in my life when I was surprised myself by doing things, and it was almost like a computer, a voice in the old computer said, put your hand on our head. Could you do them? I put

Speaker 3

dm1-13:16

Hand on free meditation. Could you do things with free meditation or would always be a spontaneous thought occurred to you to do it?

Speaker 1

dm1-13:22

There's a rule. There's a rule that, I don't know if you can get around the rule or not, but there's a rule that I found is very necessary. You can't have any personal objective. You cannot have any personal objective. That's the reason. You're not going to conflict too much with the laws of what's supposed to be. You're not going to be, you can't do things selfish. You could, but I mean, first of all, I think it would've an effect upon all future direct mind operations because you'd be leaning in that direction. Anything that's selfish, for instance, is really tied to this dimension and it just pull you right back into this dimension. See what I mean? Selfishness is part of illusion. Your ego, you do it for money or something like that. Well, you say, what the hell gets the money? Whatcha are you going to buy with it? Another dream. So it prevents you from doing it again, then. Yeah. The only reason you do it, the only reason you do it is because of some momentary urgency.

dm1-14:27

Momentary urgency. There's no reason somebody asked Christ one time why he healed the people. Was this guy sick because his old grandfather was sick or his great-grandfather and he said, no, he was made sick so I could heal him. And it don't make any more sense than that when you go into that type of thing. It's the idea, the whole idea behind it is not the rewards, not the utility. Another thing there is a utility, and that's paradoxical because the simple fact, the utility is being able to get beyond this relative mind before you get thrust into it by death and not know how to handle it. Because my feeling is that 99 and 40, 4100% of the people when they die, they still are functioning in a relative bardo because that's the only thing they'd understand. Their consciousness wouldn't understand anything else.

Speaker 4

dm1-15:18

Why did Ed's abilities fill when that guy got

Speaker 1

dm1-15:23

Profit out? But see, that was an nego. He did that. He knew that he was in demand and he succumbeded to that. Oh, I thought he was selfless in it when he made the information. No, no, no, no. He didn't get anything out of it personally, but he was getting an ego trip. See, we used to do that here. We'd have little demonstrations here, and it was working the wrong way because we had sites here. We just came to see things happening, and then to me, I was becoming an entertainer and I didn't want to become an entertainer, wasn't my message.

Speaker 2

dm1-15:59

So Don, he did say, Chuck, that he didn't know that the guy was going to use it to make money. No, but he himself still got a rake off of it. No, he didn't get anything.

Speaker 1

dm1-16:06

He did. He got an ego team. See, he was real. I picked up a tone in Seddon's book that he was trying to get the idea across to the reader that he was very objective and he wanted to test all of, he set up laboratories that test his own powers and all this sort of thing to try to be objective and almost saying, Hey, this doesn't work. It's a coincidence. Let's see if it isn't a coincidence and all this sort of thing. I was amazed at that because of the simple fact that he had direct mine boat. He'd know damn well that where it was coming from and he had it. He had it, but because he's writing an autobiography, he felt compelled to detach himself from himself for the public's view in the book. You know what I mean? Yeah. So you got to read again.

dm1-16:55

You got to read that he evidently was doing this. A lot of people were flocking into his house so much that he couldn't get anything done, and he admits this. Well, they get there. He had to be putting on a few shows. He had to be enjoying those shows. That was the catch the attention. Then he realized it was damaging, so then he shut it down. Then he tried the process of trying to test. But I do believe this, all of this stuff someday is going to be better explained and better explained. We're approaching it other than mathematical theory, physics theories are approaching this idea.

dm1-17:46

You pick up a book every once in a while and read about somebody's idea of the limits of the human mind. They're talking about the somatic mind. See the reflexive mind. Somebody's talking earlier. Who was it to talk about the idea of, somebody said, couldn't program a computer to see itself. Somebody came up with that understanding and violent psychological understanding. The individual is so computed, so programmed, cannot reach a decision about itself until it has to rise above itself. See, now this is the catch. See, this is the whole thing. Like you said, you have to, what you said in the beginning is you somehow have to find a deliverance from yourself to a point where you can see this from this other dimension. Isn't

Speaker 4

dm1-18:37

That what the path towards truth, capital T truth will bring you to,

Speaker 1

dm1-18:42

Right? Absolutely basic. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the thing is that coincidental with it, if you don't want, you can get hung up on these little things. You can heal people, but they're hangups. See, they're little Lego trips. They're wasted because if a guy contacts the disease or something, that's because he wasn't cautious. And if he dies, it's because his time's up. And it is not for us to say whether it's good or bad that he dies. It could be something worse, but continuation of same monotony, or it could be better. The

Speaker 3

dm1-19:19

Fact that people get healed then couldn't you say, well, they were supposed to be healed and their time wasn't up then.

Speaker 1

dm1-19:25

Right, right, right. You're just playing with you procrastinate. That's all. Yeah, right. Ain't saying, don't get the idea that I'm applying fatalism, but I'm saying I do believe this, that there's lag in leeway, in the destiny of things. There's a clockwork. It's like Richard Bucky said when he had the experience of cosmic consciousness, he realized that the world was running with perfection. He was imperfect only. This is what you experiencing in cosmic consciousness. You see the perfection of all things except yourself, and you see that his sight previously had been imperfect. He saw everything is erroneous and haphazard and evil and terrible, and only when you see that the overall thing, everything is taken care of, including your own immortality.

Speaker 4

dm1-20:11

And once you see that, then you don't need to heal anybody.

Speaker 1

dm1-20:14

Right? Right. See, that's the idea. But all of this goes, why did they do this? Why did Christ go out and heal people? He was dealing with very illiterate people, very crude murder type of people, perhaps leg war with the Romans or whatever, and they weren't interested too much anymore. The people today are interested in it, so he's got attractive tension to his ministry or whatever. He's offering the public, and he has to get these thoughts in the minds of people. In other words, this is the idea of awakening the sleepers. You're good and you're dealing with a million or 200 million sleepers and you try to wait 200. See? But to do it, you've got to put an ad in the paper, a poster on a billboard, give a lecture or heal somebody. That was the ad papers in those days. The newspapers in those days were word of mouth.

dm1-21:14

Oh, did you know there's a healer coming to town? What town over there? Okay, let's all go over there and see what, see if we can to come over here, say, well, while he's heal somebody, he puts out his dogma, he puts out his message, whatever. It's, and this was the history. If you check this and say in your readings, you'll find this all through Asia. Other times these people tramp from town to town, or they went and settled the town and stared at the wall for four or five years and somebody come up and say, what are you staring at the wall for? But there was always a mundane return, downward return of mundane energy, exerting mundane energy to attract mundane, selfish attentions, hoping to turn the selfish attention into a realization of why you're selfish, who's selfish, who sees the guy talking about selfishness, see all this sort of thing.

dm1-22:08

But then there's an automatic lifting up after that party sees that, so you get somebody you get for some reason. Now here we get into cosmos reasons to why we're here in this dream in the first place, all damn foolish. It's not for me to answer that. I don't know why. What else would we even do? If I had any choice, maybe I would've come. I don't know. Maybe I would've, but I don't know that. I don't know that. Right. See, but I do know that you can contact this other dimension, and it's synonymous with the unmanifested mind. It's synonymous with the manifested mind in lower phenomenon, the unmanifested mind projects, the creation, the unmanifested mind in looking back from it, you can cause things to happen the same as things. Everything that's caused to happen here comes from that manifested, manifested mind.

Speaker 4

dm1-23:10

Could you get into that, what you said about after death, bardos the people. I've been prepared for that.

Speaker 1

dm1-23:17

Well, I will someday. I think You want me to go?

Speaker 4

dm1-23:33

What do you want me to say? What do you want me to say? In other words, how would you, it's a light over there. How would you prepare yourself for that? If you felt you

Speaker 1

dm1-23:44

Were going to die or something, how would you, I mean, I'm not worried about right now, you can't prepare yourself except with conviction. That's the only thing we'll prepare. You can't say, you see the Tipton Book of the Dead says, do this, say this prayer. Remind yourself this is a dream, et cetera. No, no. You're not going to believe that. You're going to say, Hey, everything. I don't know what the hell is going to happen. When you get close and they walk up to you and say, Hey, you got two hours to live, or three hours to live, you're going to go bananas. That's all just bananas

Speaker 2

dm1-24:20

Laughing about that, Paul.

Speaker 3

dm1-24:23

It's been there.

Speaker 4

dm1-24:26

I sure have bananas, bananas, coconuts, and any other goddamn thing you wanted.

Speaker 3

dm1-24:38

Listen to George Burn, right, Rocky Road to Dublin, rock and Pebble.

Speaker 4

dm1-24:49

My definition is the individual is aware of himself in varying degrees, and the highest degree in which awareness can be two is a point of total oneness or absolute being. The individual is lost at the achievement of this state, and all personality traits are extinguished. The level at which we function as human beings is one of perceiving illusions of mutual belief states or a paradigm.

Speaker 1

dm1-25:19

Oh, I just want you lock it. Yeah, lock it. Yeah. That to fall down on somebody's head, go ahead

Speaker 4

dm1-25:24

And acting upon the paradigm. We act upon the paradigms through precondition ways, either by society or genetic implants or as well as we have desires and ego attachments, and this is how we get through life. We act upon that. The direct mind ability is the power of tapping into the higher awareness beyond our present paradigm and infecting changes in that paradigm. Now, the ability to apply that direct mind relates back to the ability to reach that awareness. And that would be basically what path you're following and how successful you are getting to it, which would be whichever method you need.

Speaker 1

dm1-26:11

Well, I think it's good we've done this because this does bring out That's a very good approach. So you're coming in with a slightly different angle, but it's the same. It's the same thing.

Speaker 4

dm1-26:26

You have to get to a point of seeing the illusion before and that point,

Speaker 2

dm1-26:31

I think there's a question as to how you see this. I think it has to do with some sensitivity that people have, whether given to them by their lifestyle or by a natural thing. Okay. There may be this higher dimension, and we can talk about it logically, but what is it inside of you that makes the trip? How do you contact this? Is there a bridge or something? I mean, I think it's sensitivity. I think one guy I read talked about the way of the heart. You don't pick up things logically. It's like from the heart, this, this feeling of these things come to you, and if you don't, he said, if obviously you follow your logical mind, you're trying to decide that way. You block out all this information. And he said, if you follow your heart, that's all he said. That doesn't really say it, but I think maybe we could ask some questions anybody had in their definitions of what is it that takes one to contact the higher mind?

dm1-27:32

How do you contact the higher mind? Is it just pushing thoughts out? Like Larry was talking about how when Campbell and him very res, and Paul Campbell did an experiment here where they said they would send a message and he was talking about it today over there, and he was saying something about he sat there and he said it was like he was waiting for something to drop in his head. And he said other thing, I don't know how to explain, he's not here to say it, but he said something like everything else was leaving his mind and something would drop in. It was just like a feeling. He'd get a feeling. Campbell was thinking about sending him a message about a rubber round ball, a red ball or something, and he actually got the picture of a circle, and he came down the next day and he said, what did you get? And he said, he got a circle. He said, I was projecting red a ball, round ball.

Speaker 1

dm1-28:21

Well, how does that relate there, director? See, we were approaching that before you remember. See, this is ESP. This is ESP, and you can have somebody that's very good, very excellent at ESP, and yet have no intuition, right?

Speaker 2

dm1-28:40

Oh, well, what's the difference then?

Speaker 1
dm1-28:41

Yeah.

Speaker 2

dm1-28:43

Oh, well, then I'm misunderstanding. What's the difference then?

Speaker 1

dm1-28:46

Well, that's what you got to know. What's the difference? That's

Speaker 2

dm1-28:48

Why I'm asking.

Speaker 1

dm1-28:49

I mean, the difference you're talking about too abstract. See, the thing is that ESP is a tenuous ability of the mind, which may be somatic. It's a somatic mind. In other words, you have intuitions, but everybody's got intuitions. But why don't everybody have the same convictions? Is because they don't really have a perfected intuition. They got as perfect as they. No, but if a person thinks, well, I got a feeling I should join the Marines. My intuition is that I'll be successful. Or maybe he's got some idea of glamour. He'll meet some girl, see him in his uniform or whatever. But these intuitions may be the biggest part of, or a subject to egos and appetites in the human body.

=== File dm2 ===
Time: 30:12

Speaker 1

dm2-00:01

They can always tell which beer joint he's in, but they can't tell which much stock to play on the stock market. Just almost this is tied. You get what I'm talking about is tied to some mundane ego, but yet it works out a tremendous anxiety. That tremendous anxiety sometimes though it brings about the death experience too, which will bring you to higher mind. But that's only after those A egos are gone. But ESP is something that you can practice but only it'll be limited to some extent. It is a higher mind type of operation. It it's telepathy. In other words, it's like, let's say a mental tensity again

dm2-00:47

Toing a table. It looks like direct mind but it isn't. They got ectoplasmic cantilever rod that they discovered its shape even by using a simple piece of cardboard like this and put it under the table in different places. Moved to the about until the table had dropped. And by continuum a whole bunch of series of these tests, they found out exactly which way the ectoplasmic rod went down out of the medium's belly and formed an angle and went up under the very center of the table and have picked its intelligent, seem to have its own intelligence to pick the very center of that table to lift it straight up in the air. Now that's physical, but somebody think that's direct mind it. There are a lot of things that people can do. There's an energy that you can heal people with. Now see, here's the difference.

dm2-01:34

I maintain maintaining that Christ healed people with physical energy that's called zapping. They actually project my intense sympathy and desire. A nurse can do it in the hospital, nurses are told, don't be sympathetic towards your patients because you'll get sick. They'll get better. See, that's the transfer of energy. See? So that's healing. See, that's Zapp. Direct mind healing has no loss of energy. And I mentioned this in one of several of my lectures about talking to a fellow in Steubenville about Olga Wars and Ambrose Wars. There were two healers out of Baltimore. Ambrose is dead. His wife's still running around giving some lectures. But I talked to this guy, met her, met him personally. I'd never met og and I said, I got a feeling that they use some type of healing. It wasn't the say conventional type of healing that you see where people laying their hands on other people and they're taking their energy and getting better and that sort of thing.

dm2-02:41

And he said, oh absolutely. And I thought he didn't know anything about his run old machine shop there and he read too many books, so maybe he doesn't understand. Dave was there and was talking to him and he said, absolutely. He said, there's no need to lose energy in healing, but you have to be able to somehow tap that. You have to be able to somehow use it. Let's put it that way. Now, and these are bad. Both words are bad because you don't use it. You don't use it, and yet you direct it because it is like saying that you would use the ocean to propel a boat. The ocean is going to stay right where it's at and it's not going to lose any power because the boat went through it using the wind to move a sailboat. In other words, the direct mind when it's working is an effortless thing. And your corresponds to an old Cabalistic law that I understand it to have emanated it from cable ballistic origins. Has anybody heard this? See, find, let Levi, this is one of the reasons I used to put these books up for sale so you guys could read this. You get these little hints from the books.

Speaker 2

dm2-04:06

Little imagination

Speaker 1

dm2-04:07

Of fiat, right? Right. See other words? You have to conceive. You have to conceive what you want. Then you have to will it and you have to say it and forget it. They didn't say that, but you have to forget it. I forget it. I mean it must not be important enough to try to remember,

Speaker 3

dm2-04:31

And this is to bring about the direct mind. I mean that's what happens just because a person has the ability to reach to the higher awareness or to, he's not in charge through the illusion or something. It doesn't mean that he can affect direct mind,

Speaker 1

dm2-04:46

Right? He's not in charge of anything. He's not, you're still a unit that's all and helpless unit to many extents. But you are able, like I said, it's a degree of, it's just like we go out here, generations of farmers pull the trees out and plant grain and change and change the field, the appearance of the field that there's a limit to what they're allowed to do in a lifetime. See, or many lifetimes, you do a lot see, but there's a limit. And if they try to go beyond that, it is the story of the old guy that dropped dead plowing. You try to push beyond it, you drop dead. And the same way with this, the actual use of it is nothing more than, like I said, it's a demonstration to perhaps encourage somebody else to look for their higher mind. This is the most valuable part about it. It's not that you're going to turn this into a commodity at all.

Speaker 3

dm2-05:54

So really the only value of human life is to help other people on the ladder. The law

Speaker 1

dm2-06:00

Of the ladder. This is a law. It isn't that it's a value. It's like

Speaker 3

dm2-06:07

It's a reciprocating

Speaker 1

dm2-06:08

Process. Right, right, right. There's 10 million minerals in the ocean that swim around and go nowhere and eventually get eaten by larger fish. 10 million mice get eaten by cats. But if the mice consolidate and say, here's how we can protect ourselves from the cats till we find out what the hell we are, then 10 out of 10 million survives long enough to find out who they are. Cat. Yeah, right. You say cat. Well, that's basically biller's girlfriend came down and was looking at Tasha and she said, oh, what a pretty little girl or something like that. And I said, yes, that's beautiful food for the entities. It shocked her.

Speaker 3

dm2-07:05

See's been bothering you yet later though? Oh no. See, it was for you. That was your benefit.

Speaker 4

dm2-07:16

No,

Speaker 5

dm2-07:18

I never

Speaker 4

dm2-07:18

Really don

Speaker 2

dm2-07:22

Mr. Rose. Would you consider it as being a technique to be able to work in that dimension? Oh

Speaker 1

dm2-07:28

Yes, yes. It's the way you hold your head. It's the way you hold your head. And this is, and it's not too complex, but at the same time, it's not easy. Once you learn, you learn

Speaker 2

dm2-07:47

How to do it. It seems if you're going to develop a technique to will something and then forget it, that if you bring it into being that that's going to make you remember the next time you notice you're like a hale,

Speaker 1

dm2-07:59

The reason for the forgetting, it ain't necessarily forgetting. It's more or less ignoring it, walk away from it because when you, as soon as you pause anything, you immediately negate it and you don't linger with that negation. In other words, when you say, I want this and you want it intensely, I want it. See, then immediately you believe in the opposite you create, a lot of forces are set in action with repetitious hunger for it. That will create the opposite, meaning neutralize your own objective. So that's what we talk about between us. There's a way that you have to hold your head in between and we say between what? Don't ask me because there is no what. See, there's two. Whats two? Whats I think you understand what I'm saying. To give you an example, the best way I can tell you is to give you an example.

dm2-09:01

The first time it happened was with Frank's wife and I was sitting in the room with her and I saw she had a headache and I thought if I go over there and put my hand on her head, I can cure a headache. So I went over, you see what I mean? And I didn't even believe that I didn't do it. I didn't even believe belief isn't necessary. It was the idea that I thought, hey, maybe this will work. See? And then when I went over and put my hand on her head, I thought it had the impulse to pull the headache out and that was what happened. So since then I've been doing it to hundreds of people at Arch Tacos. Ours wants, oh, I thought you were part of the coup.

Speaker 6

dm2-09:50

You say you put your hand on her head, huh? Yeah. Well I've been doing that lately. Just headaches and muscle spasms and they say, my hands get like heating pads real hot. Sometimes you take the energy out, my hands will get cranked up, but I just put my mind in a state of deep meditation. You will. It just moves it all the hands just stay there mind completely state of nothing that's empty. Got to quit doing it in the men's restroom though, remember? Tell me about that. It surprised me though. I had somebody here the other day that had a migraine headache and they didn't believe it. I kept the migraine just stopped. Oh yeah. Well of course right now, see, right now today I'm in my bio rhythms way down. I way down the intellectual low.

Speaker 1

dm2-10:54

Yeah, I remember you telling me about that before. That's what you was telling me about before. You put your hands on some before,

Speaker 6

dm2-11:00

But they said the hands get like heat pad. See Yeah,

Speaker 1

dm2-11:02

Again,

Speaker 6

dm2-11:03

But what I do, I concentrate. It is the same state you reached. When you go real deep beyond the mind and the body state of just, it's the same state. Only the truth of the matter is that there seems to be an energy there, like it's tuned into the universal mind or the universal force or whatever that pervades everything within and

Speaker 1

dm2-11:29

Without, well, that's the, I think what you did see. You put it as a result of an impulse. And that's exactly what I did. I mean, I had no logical reason. I took own training for it. I

Speaker 6

dm2-11:39

Didn't believe it. I thought it was much in nonsense. It just happened. But it happened so many times with so many people here lately that I noted. And the people that this one person who as I say came with the migraine, is just like that. And an interesting thing was with this young girl that I keep rubbing her back out. She has spastic muscle spastic. I had a chiropractor friend of mine who taught me had adjust, adjust back. I used to adjust his back and just mine. Anyway, I heard back was so messed up. I put my hands on there before I adjust. See, I don't run those spasms out and you got to go with your fingers. See, and I would put my hands down the spine as processes, see where the distortion is in the vertebra adjustment. Ver see just like the chiropractors do. But I just was about ready to give up. I said, oh no, I knew it was going to take a tremendous amount of rubbing to get all that out. I had to really rub it and everything and I had to go over. So I just put my hands on there and concentrated and put my mind at stake. And they heated up. She said, oh, they're getting real hot.

dm2-13:03

Can't it? Damn thing was all loose. Those muscle spasms are out of there. And what the hell is this?

Speaker 1

dm2-13:21

Looks like it's curly photography. There's

Speaker 6

dm2-13:28

So much we don't know. I think it must go on into the,

Speaker 1

dm2-13:32

They're right inside that box on the left. You can just reach down and get a couple of pass it over.

Speaker 4

dm2-13:43

That's good. Hey, will be here pretty

Speaker 3

dm2-13:50

Soon. Let's know when it's going to be dark

Speaker 1

dm2-13:59

The way ride. But Dave, how about you giving us what you're doing? Dave Gold

Speaker 4

dm2-14:16

Get mad at, I have the direct mind being attunement, which which is projecting everything attunement with a manifested mind, a manifesting mind, and the development of the metal powers which accompany that mine and also the transmission, the fact that direct mine also being the directing mine, transmitting mine of getting in between the scenery and changing the projections in the manifested mine. As far as the development, I have development being an attunement with the manifesting mind and the type of life most conducive to developing between us, which in turn I set with a light of the intense paradoxes, meaning you have to have tremendous effort along with tremendous detachment and you have to have some way that you could push your logical mind in the limits and at the same time, detach yourself totally from the logical mind to free yourself from the logical mind and also the removal of distractions.

dm2-15:18

Hey Dave, what was that your first definition? I couldn't hear that too much. The attunement with that, which is projecting the attunement, that which is the projection projecting or the projection. There was a question I was going to throw out that came up when we were discussing this with the speakers trying to figure out, and I think there's a lot of confusion in the group about it, and that's how this fits in with, to hear some ideas about how this fits in with the rest of the teachings, how this fits in with the algen system and with the psychology, the observer, whether this is something, this is just totally new or whether this is something that,

Speaker 1

dm2-15:57

But see one thing about it though, that has to be defined. This is a catch. I mean, once you get into the word, I used it a minute ago, the manifested mind manifested mind. When you get into that, immediately you have to define it. Yeah, what's the manifest? Because define it. I mean not only in terms of just word definition, but it more or less demonstrate. See, in other words, how do you demonstrate it? Well, again, you got to go back to other people's writings on it. Mary Baker Reddy, Mary Baker Reddy is to me is one of the outstanding exponents of the work of the manifesting mind upon this dimension. We're in the mundane dimension. See, that's the basis of Christian science is the ability to change this dimension, which is not too real by mind power. And she's not talking about the relative mind. She's talking about changing, actually changing this drama picture show

Speaker 4

dm2-17:12

Is Quimbee coming from the same position then?

Speaker 5

dm2-17:15

I don't know too much about qui. I was reading something about him recently. His idea was that the trick he used to convince the people he's trying to heal anyway, his argument was that God was all perfect, therefore everything he created was perfect. Therefore, illness is imaginary, imaginary projection of your imperfect mind. And if he was dealing with the people that believed in the perfection of God, the logic of that would cause them their mind to maybe go into a betweenness where they would believe the disease wasn't real.

Speaker 1

dm2-17:50

The difficulty that that is though, that he, while let's say pious leading them, he's leading them with a lie. And the result is that those people can never really know what happens. See, it may happen accidentally as a result of their posture. Number one is God remains undefined and the undefined God gets the blame for everything that happens. Now, it isn't the imagination of people. This projection, this dream, this show is as real as anything you'll know until you know something better. And after you know something better, after you're dead or after you transcend it and look back, this is still real. This is still very real. This is real as a picture show. Okay,

Speaker 3

dm2-18:45

Then you act this person, act in both dimensions then, or it's by choice. No,

Speaker 1

dm2-18:50

Well, no. Your sympathies, for instance, when you die and you have any consciousness of your relatives, these relatives, seemingly illusory will still be a focus of your attention until you don't need them. That's all until you, and I don't know when that would ever come about, that you don't need context of the human context.

Speaker 3

dm2-19:24

The fact that an individual does not know who he is or does not have an understanding of his own awareness, and he attaches the people around him and his relatives and the loved ones and the people that he is living with, he attaches himself to those people. That means that he, yeah, his whole life is not one of defining himself, but more of being aware of other people. So when those other people are taken from him, he is left with nothing,

Speaker 1

dm2-20:01

Even though those people become very delivered from, they're deeply steeped in the illusion. But you see, the thing you remember about this thing at Quimbee said is that like George Blazer said, we're all in this together. In other words, we all believe that you're supposed to go out and make a nickel for Kroger's. We all believe that you're supposed to not hurt your fellow man and all this sort of thing. There's a whole lot of stuff. We all believe that the sky is there and the sun rises and sets. And because of this isn't, you can't take one person in by healing, by saying that your imagination is causing this. The only thing Quibi could say in all honesty is God's imagination. If he really believed God,

Speaker 5

dm2-20:51

He didn't say imagination caused

Speaker 1

dm2-20:52

It, he just err. He didn't know what caused it. Erratic thinking. Yeah, fact, the blame is placed upon. See, this is the thing that Warner Earhart blames the individual. Scientology blames the individual. Christianity blames the individual. You're a sinner. Krishna Krish knight. Blame the individual. To me, this is nonsense. We're all stuck with the same paradigm. Paradigm. Now, you can't cure are one person. What I said by telling them the guy that he is imagining something wrong. This is not telling him the truth. Just go. And I sat outside talking to a while ago about our group and the thing that the reason that we're not very popular is because we don't have any collective dog. And of course, that's the only reason. You guys are still here though after 10 years, that we don't have any collective dog. In other words, you can't trade one paradigm for another hypnotic self, hypnotic belief. See, this is the catch.

dm2-22:00

You can't just brush it aside by saying, God, no, I no consciousness. I had no consciousness. Sure I have consciousness of being God, but that doesn't have consciousness of you being God too. See, but you're not conscious of being God. God, you want to use the word I don't use the word. I use the word absolutely, but I think that this is the, but the thing that I don't know, even though I had this experience was what the hell is God doing down here in this illusion? In other words, why project somebody down here for him to discover who he really is? Millions, millions of people. Millions of so-called drops in the ocean. See, and a struggle to find your way back to the simplicity through complexity of the simplicity.

Speaker 3

dm2-22:50

I just wonder if there is an int intelligible reason.

Speaker 1

dm2-22:55

Oh yeah.

Speaker 3

dm2-22:56

Yes.

Speaker 5

dm2-22:57

Yeah, there is. Yeah. Do you think it's knowable

Speaker 1

dm2-23:03

A hell of a game? Well, I think it's even conceivable. I wouldn't want you to take it as the truth, but they get back to the cabal. But very strange little translation of the new Old Testament genesis and the way Anderson was translated was that the elo, him became lonesome or God became lonesome. And so they created a trough for their pleasure. That was the idea. It was the creation. It created a scheme of the trough for their pleasure. And in other words, they dichotomized themselves or or it dichotomized itself. See here again, when you transcend this dimension and you go beyond the unmanifested mind into pure absolute reality, you may not be absolute reality as much as be traveling there sort of naked without a body dimension where the absolute is the dimension. That's the reason. I don't like to use the word God because you could be traveling there without it and be in contact with everything in this dimension. But I wasn't in contact with everything in the absolute dimension. I knew nothing about the absolute dimension except that everything I conceived was I could conceive it from that dimension, this whole picture. See, I could see it, understand it, but in other words, the absolute can be a dimension or it can be an entity.

Speaker 6

dm2-24:51

Maybe there's many different dimensions,

Speaker 1

dm2-24:53

Right? Right. So that's what I say, there's all you can do is all you can do is be prepared. That's all that you're going to

Speaker 6

dm2-25:01

That theory about we're entering this aquarion or this electrical age now over a couple hundred years into it, we have to go into the middle age and well, yeah, the golden age. And it's repeating itself from the time of the land. It's supposedly won't enter the golden age for another 7,000 years. And a man is just coming out of the dark ages. So every time there seemed to be certain evolved people that had Christ consciousness like Christ or the Buddha. But now it seems like these things were becoming more widespread. This universal force or this universal mind.

Speaker 1

dm2-25:39

I don't know. I don't know per population, George, whether we've got more or not, because of course there was no way for us to record the men that they had then. But I do say that I think they're inversely proportional to our high technological society.

Speaker 6

dm2-25:53

Things are happening today. I mean, a lot of this stuff on the market, I guess there's nothing but hypnosis, commercialism, but

Speaker 1

dm2-26:02

I think they were happening. We had waves of this before all us up the world, Europe was,

Speaker 6

dm2-26:08

But there were just fewer people that the time wasn't ripe and the people that knew didn't let it out. I'm inclined to think the opposite is true though, that

Speaker 5

dm2-26:15

People are fairly worse today than better. It does seem there's too many

Speaker 6

dm2-26:22

More actions that have been developed. It's like there's

Speaker 1

dm2-26:26

Absolute ignorance lying alongside all this knowledge. Well, it's just like what's the great trend today is the epitomizing figure is Billy Graham and Billy Graham gets up there and I heard two or three of 'em saying, God wants us to do this. How in the hell does he know He, I mean, he's talking about a personal being. I talked to him. Why I say he's a liar. I say he's a living liar because if he did know, I'd like to know some details. I'd like to have that man produce some details. He had a conversation with God. What'd God say? Did they talk about the stock market? But that's why most people, or is Billy Graham so astute that God's making a mistake. He made a mistake back here about 10, 20 years ago when we got the atomic bomb. He was asleep while we was making the bomb. See, there's so many. It is irregular as hell. These guys who are so quick to throw out the word God,

Speaker 6

dm2-27:34

But all a lot of people can understand. Primitive man wanted to, so many, our fathers, so many Hail Marys, he wanted to sure away to heaven. They

Speaker 1

dm2-27:42

Still doing that. He's doing that. You get 10%.

Speaker 6

dm2-27:44

But there's a lot of people that didn't comprehend anything. Even different religions like Hinduism always had different things for different people. They had BTI yoga like the Christmas used for Catholic devotion, and they had what? Mosia was a higher type of yoga similar to Zen or Satori or the Buddhists had, there was different things for different people. Some people,

Speaker 1

dm2-28:10

Well, thing we're saying is he says, we haven't move too much further. We haven't moved too much further. The salami Sec made that point. I think very clearly. They blame it on a guy named Cal, but they said, we were put here. This is put in jail and all efforts are made. As soon as you come up with a religion, a true, an honest person. Christ is an honest man, but as soon as he dies, all the disciples got to fighting over the territory, over the take.

Speaker 6

dm2-28:45

Oh, you mean you don't think we've moved, but to get beyond the human condition of greed and possibility and selfishness, and it's the same thing. Well, yeah. We're entering now a period of like Orwell's, 1984. 84 or Player Ana by Kurt. I mean the whole system seems like the government's taking over

Speaker 1

dm2-29:04

Control mines. Yeah. It ain't the government. It is just that you're not, every time there's a mass movement, there's another old saying, the node to there to do, to be silent node. To dare to doing, to be silent. Because you can't say there's only so many allowed on the ark. You got to sneak out. Sneak out. That's what gird you talking about the slimes. You get any great crusade, any great revival thing where people start to albigensians is a classic example of a whole group of people that once they showed that they had a real power.

Speaker 6

dm2-29:44

Well, people are scared of that,

Speaker 1

dm2-29:45

Right? The wasn't the massacre.

Speaker 6

dm2-29:49

Mysticism is a system where people get together, who, one thing they have in common is that they just can't seem to get along with the overall society. George said

Speaker 1

dm2-29:59

They can't or can't. They're outmaneuvered. You got somebody, we're hanging by springs and somebody's pulling the damn springs. We're not doing anything. So they get together. They have more a democratic system where there's more, the system out there

Speaker 6

dm2-30:13

Is all power related democratic system. Isn.

=== File dm3 missing ===
Time:

=== File dm4 missing ===
Time:

=== File dm5 ===
Time: 30:02

Speaker 1

dm5-00:00

Confused that with love. Yeah. He said sentimentality is one. Like, oh, whatever. He said, the other one is obligation. I owe him or I owe her.

Speaker 2

dm5-00:10

That's what always said. One time, you got a duty. I said, don't give me that crap. I have no duties.

Speaker 1

dm5-00:15

And the third one he said was fear. Fear of what will be being without that person or fear of what that person will do in retaliation is most likely. Okay. So he said, if you're involved with the second vampire, he said, there's only one defense. He said, there's only one. He said, you walk away and like Locke's wife, you don't look back and you keep on walking. He said, because that person's going to come after you because you're there. You know,

Speaker 2

dm5-00:43

Read the story in journal about the witch. That was a case of a 17-year-old girl came to my house. It was in one of the first journals here. I don't know if I have that one. She came to my house 17 years old and she sat right where I'm sitting here now, and I saw her head coming apart right here, and I can see this wall in the cracks, like a jinx little puzzle popped. My intuition tells me she'd take on hundreds of men. She just looked like a virgin. She had a beautiful complexion. Just looked like a little Sure.

Speaker 1

dm5-01:12

They were feeding her. Yeah.

Speaker 2

dm5-01:13

Right, right.

Speaker 3

dm5-01:15

My intuition tells me that in this work, we stay away from two areas, the spiritualists and the witches. I know. I just get, I know

Speaker 1

dm5-01:25

Because I'm not afraid of most things, but I won't hear

Speaker 3

dm5-01:27

That. That was a sign of Aquarius Bookstore. I just walked

Speaker 1

dm5-01:31

Into

Speaker 3

dm5-01:31

The place

Speaker 1

dm5-01:32

And

Speaker 3

dm5-01:33

One time, one time, and the hair on the back of my damn neck started to rise.

Speaker 1

dm5-01:38

Really? I thought that was a wonderful place

Speaker 3

dm5-01:41

Mike White used, say he got drained in there by those two people too. No old to him. I didn't even talk to, I just walked. Really? Here's in the back of my neck, started to prickle up. Creepy

Speaker 2

dm5-01:51

Going on. And in the back room, they have meetings there then that could happen. Every town has, we found one of mag there anymore.

Speaker 1

dm5-02:01

I was going to buy a book cards there, but for some reason I haven't made it the back there. Now I'm glad there's probably something, anything coming out of there.

Speaker 3

dm5-02:09

And I read that one Susie Smith book and it just kept on popping. This thought kept on popping further and further. I get into the book, I get to the end of the book and I say, brother, stay the hell away from those people.

Speaker 2

dm5-02:25

I think that you're, you're man is pretty comprehensive about his categorization. I do believe that there are some people who either give or take,

Speaker 1

dm5-02:36

Well, he said that there are the few, the very few. He says less than 1% that can rise above all that. Now those would be those who have direct mind matter.

Speaker 2

dm5-02:44

Doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter at all because I know that I'm catching, I'm catching myself on giving. I have to be very terrible by giving because it's my nature because that's what I say. That's the reason I don't mind acting up because I'm, and I know what,

Speaker 1

dm5-03:02

When you first came, the first time I ever saw you, Mr. Rosa was in, I guess 1979, I think. Yeah, it was 1979 when I first saw you and you were speaking and everything. In my impression of you, this is the first time I ever saw you ever had my impression of I was, this man really doesn't give a shit. I thought he's standing up here and he doesn't care if anybody's paying attention or not. And then I started paying attention to that, to the fact that you were projecting this, that you didn't care. So I started really focusing on that. What was that about? And I said, no, there's something here that I'm picking up on, but it's something good. And then I thought it was that you were up there and you didn't need to brainwash anybody or sell anybody or convert anybody that you were not out there to hook us.

Speaker 2

dm5-03:52

And

Speaker 1

dm5-03:52

Then I said, said, I'm going to hang out and start.

Speaker 2

dm5-03:57

Of course I do that. I know that I am not going to go up there and apologize for being there.

Speaker 1

dm5-04:02

But there was something about it that struck me at first. It was like, huh? And then it was something about it. After I got over my initial values about how somebody should be, something inside of me thought that there was recognized something really good. And I didn't know what it was, but I kept hanging out.

Speaker 2

dm5-04:19

Yeah. I was kind of surprised. I had a girl from Pittsburgh. She worked at the Western psych. You remember Janice Henry? No. Jan came to Duque University, a lecture I gave, and she said, she was kind of cynical with me. She said she wanted to get into a confrontation group. She had a master's degree in, I think it was psychology and another degree in something else. Her original degree was on something else. Then

Speaker 1

dm5-04:48

She's obviously researching.

Speaker 2

dm5-04:50

She was working. She's one of'em. I told to get out the institution. They had those girls. She was one of all, the staff sat around in the circle. The women all sat around the circle masturbated together. They literally did. That reminds me of 10-year-old kids. Yeah, yeah. What they were doing this because to liberate themselves, they were liberating themselves from the sexual pressures or I don't know what the hell they were doing, but I mentioned in a lecture at the Theos is that in Pittsburgh, as this is a degree of contamination we've gone to in this country where the institutions that are supposed to liberate people and could do it by conserving their energy or teaching themselves to dissipate their energy. They've got nothing left to heal people with. They won't have any intuition to do anything with this going up there and masturbating with the idiots. Anyhow, she came in to do

Speaker 1

dm5-05:37

Masturbation. Iss just as bad as anything else isn't mean. Whether

Speaker 2

dm5-05:40

It has its own, each type of section.

Speaker 1

dm5-05:44

You said that the entities that look to get the energy from an alcoholic or just looking at, there's

Speaker 2

dm5-05:49

Different types and they have different purposes. But anyhow, somebody told her, we had confrontation groups where we'd shake up people's heads and she wanted to get in on it, but that was when I wasn't there. But this one time I come up every couple of weeks I'd go up to the meetings and she came in and I said, well, she said, people were asking me questions and I was answering, and she says, aren't we going to have a confrontation session here today? And I said, well, generally when I come up here, I said, I preempt The time was bullshiting and answering questions. And I remember this guy there, the name of green I've never seen, he says much after his father died just shortly after died. And I never saw him after his father died. No, his father died right before the meeting. That was John. What happened to that meeting? That used to come to our meetings, his name still. And he was an older man, or Louis or something, a Jewish guy. He was asking the question, whatever happened to him, he's still around. We just haven't had any public meetings along. Why don't you take a see what you want? He said, Hey, I don't. He said, I come up here,

Speaker 3

dm5-07:00

We'll get in touch with him again.

Speaker 2

dm5-07:03

Couldn't get one. You confrontation said, I'll leave if I'm the one that's bother you. Something about him, me off, not about him. She came to the next meeting, something that's going on. University. Pittsburgh didn't quite know how disturbing him something was,

Speaker 3

dm5-07:18

It's weird for a 50-year-old guy to suddenly get into philosophy. Something must have bother him in his life.

Speaker 2

dm5-07:29

Why? Give him a call and ask him. She came down and she sat there. One of the remarks she made, she says, I want to be a therapist. People up there. She was looking up the end of the table, the other end of the table where they're looking down in their noses at us down on this end of the table. And well, I thought it was pretty true. We did. We had some guys who just sit there and pon this way. I'd rather protect myself. I'm getting into That's more, you think there's something very

Speaker 1

dm5-07:58

Sick with, no, not Kim himself, Colonel

Speaker 2

dm5-08:02

Hogan's heroes. But

Speaker 1

dm5-08:03

There's something in his life or there's something that's happened. I don't know what she

Speaker 2

dm5-08:08

Said. Mr. Rose, I got to talk to you. I don't know what it is. And until I know and I said, well go ahead and talk. I didn't once. I know maybe it be so private fun. Go ahead and talk. She said, no, I want to talk to you privately. Somebody that I don't want get too close to. I said, what do you want to talk about his badge? I want to talk about my mind fucked up. I think about him. Why we have to be that funny matters to me. I noticed he sad. The guy sitting there thought she wanted hit her course. I mean, that's what went through their head. She's throwing the word out. She's going to be an easy mate. We'll be

Speaker 3

dm5-08:42

In touch with him pretty soon.

Speaker 2

dm5-08:44

Said, you want to talk to me? We get down to the win here, getting flyers and we'll get a tape. Oh yeah, 20 guys. We'll be calling him too. So I went down and sit there and talked to her. She'd already bought the book. You came. She took it. That was back when it was in Graph Inc. 11 graph. And she said, I came to that meeting. She says, I didn't particularly like you. I didn't particularly, I wonder what the heck we were doing.

Speaker 1

dm5-09:13

You were beyond my life, Lord. Discussion. Thank you. You know what I mean? You recognize exactly what I meant. It was beyond where I decided to chuck all that personal and

Speaker 2

dm5-09:31

Cult of the personality. Yeah. Oh. I never conceived myself having a personality. Cause I figured I've had people take pictures of me. I'd be talking, I'd say, Jesus, see, got talking like I'm making those faces. I'd get up and leave. But anyhow, she told me, we going down there and I said, what's your problem? And she says, all my friends are leaving me. She says, I'm driving everybody away from me. So I was curious. I was curious about it. I said, so why don't you, evidently it's going require some, a lot of talking going back in your past. When did this start? Is there something? And really think I got finally got to the bottom of what it was, and I'm talking about therapy. I'll tell you one of the things I did.

dm5-10:32

I tried everything and I couldn't, she didn't seem to remember anything. I, on some photographs, she told her this story. I told her to bring all the photographs. She had her chop. But in the meantime, I tried to get her drunk because I think I thought she beans. So I would've down and invested for 20 bucks in a couple of bars. Re blue Wild Turkey. 1 0 1. Oh, wild Turkey. So she's sitting there in my kitchen and she's drinking. She's drinking this stuff. And what do I get instead? Syndicating psychology. I get the fact that she now has become a musician and I've got to hear her tapes. She goes and get these tapes of this song that she has written, and she thinks it'll be a big hit. And she's drinking this booze now, and she's playing these tapes. And the song is, what Do you know? And Negro Accent the song. Here we are sitting in the middle of the road. What do you know? Here we are sitting in the middle of the road. One it told me, oh, there was a message there repeated over and over. She was in the middle of the road. No, see. And so I didn't pay too much attention to it. And Debbie sch walked in.

dm5-11:49

So Debbie Schreiber sees the bottle sitting there, which is very unusual. I putting boots on the table. So she didn't know what was happening except she thought it was a celebration. See? So she hits the mind if I have a drink. I said, yeah, help yourself. And she drinks like a fish. So, oh, that destroyed it. Then she got to singing too. See? And then the two girls damn there got the fight when they thought they was making fun of each other. And Debbie gets another shot now because she has to get a little bit more mellow to put up with Janice. Jazz.

Speaker 1

dm5-12:22

I'm a happy drunk.

Speaker 2

dm5-12:23

Yeah.

Speaker 1

dm5-12:24

I don't like these really get, but

Speaker 2

dm5-12:25

Anyhow, Debbie got, Debbie went in the bathroom, and then it sounded like a horse falling. You ever heard the horse falling and it go to sleep on its feet fall? That's what hit the floor in the bathroom. See, I, oh my. Then the door was locked and I didn't know how to get in. Finally had to push the button off the door to get in there. And what had happened was she had fallen on the floor. She didn't knock her out.

Speaker 1

dm5-12:53

She didn't hit her

Speaker 2

dm5-12:54

Head. She couldn't get No, and she couldn't get up, but she had a vomit and she pulled herself over to the commode and pulled herself up on the commode. And she's hugging the commode, trying to puke. Least she did that much. Give her credit. Yeah. You remember Debbie? Does you? Yeah. She was the last person you'd ever think would,

Speaker 1

dm5-13:21

I've done it many of times.

Speaker 2

dm5-13:24

But this girl had, this girl had breasts under her armpits. She had a chicken breast like this, and her breast was under her armpits. And one of the things she'd say, she'd say, I hate my body. I hate my goddamn tits, and I

Speaker 1

dm5-13:41

Don't particularly like mine either.

Speaker 2

dm5-13:43

And she says,

Speaker 1

dm5-13:44

Somebody made an observation was he's never met a woman that was perfectly happy with her breasts, that all of them want to change something about their breast.

Speaker 2

dm5-13:53

Well, the first time I went over there, I could see that from Ron.

Speaker 1

dm5-14:04

Suzanne proved

Speaker 2

dm5-14:05

Wrong. But anyhow, I said to her, I said, why? When I was a little girl, I made a so oath that I was never going to, I was never going to have breasts. She says they grew anyhow. See? So what happened anyhow is that she stayed at my house. Must have been six months until I went out to Phoenix. Then she could have stayed with the girls. So she left. She couldn't stand the other girls. She'd get along pretty good with Debbie. But that was the only one. After that first night, huh? No, Debbie was living there. They was in the same room. But there was some other girls there that were kind of hypocritical. She didn't go for the hypocrisy. She's a very honest person. She was the only girl who ever came into the group that I felt close to. I mean, I had never had a sister, and I just really had developed a bond with her. Is this Janice talking? Yeah. I developed a bond with her and she was, I just can't explain it because there was an honesty there. There was just flat. That's what I was just say flat and abrupt. Boom. This is, yeah.

Speaker 3

dm5-15:25

She called a spade. A bird. Yeah. She said what she called a spade. Bur

Speaker 1

dm5-15:31

I don't get it. Ang. Oh, jigaboo. Here. I'm thinking you mean a spade?

Speaker 2

dm5-15:43

You got to get this terminology

Speaker 1

dm5-15:45

Really, really direct mind. I've decided that the ha Christians are direct. No mind after that film we saw last night.

Speaker 2

dm5-15:54

Oh, oh my. That's what I say. You understand why rant and raves sometimes about these things that destroy the ability of people to have a communication. Even the animals.

Speaker 1

dm5-16:04

You said today about that

Speaker 2

dm5-16:05

The animals are further ahead of us than we are

Speaker 1

dm5-16:07

That you knew that ran the Krishna place he was having with sex. And I thought about that film we saw last night. They're segregated, the sexes. These,

Speaker 2

dm5-16:14

Right? Yeah. But look at that little, that's what it's all about. That kid that the had up front and a picture of last night, and he scared to death. He's like, that's what he, those adults and the guy behind you, the guy behind you going smiling. Remember I kept saying you looked like an alligator. You looked like an alligator there. Stand behind you. I was scared. No, there was something about her, but she was a very strange person. I know.

Speaker 1

dm5-16:43

So what did it turn out to be? That she was driving all her friends away. She told to

Speaker 2

dm5-16:47

Fuck themselves anybody

Speaker 1

dm5-16:49

When they were being hit?

Speaker 2

dm5-16:50

No, not always. No, she didn't deter. She didn't discriminate between friendship. I think I was the only person that she didn't want to leave my foot. She told me she never wanted to leave my house. She was home. But we'd be sitting there at the kitchen table and one time talking about asr. And I don't have much patience with astrology because it's like a cookbook. You can grab one, say anything out of it you want, if you want to look far enough. And so she was saying, and I didn't know how to get across to her with a few words. So I concocted a whole thing, group, double talk about astrology. And I said, you know this. She was saying such and such a thing worked, and you could find the rising sign from the sun sign or something. And I said, this doesn't work because when the moon is in conjunction with Saturn, and Saturn is in opposite to so-and-so in the third house, and I'm rambled on for about five minutes, going double and bullshit. And she was reading it all the time. It's going through a computer. She said, this doesn't work. And finally she dawned on me double talk. She looked at me and she said, "You're a fucking fool."

dm5-18:02

And she got up from the table and she went in her room and that was the no room there in the house. And I hear her crying. So I went in and I went and put arm on her shoulder and I said, not intended. And she says, you shouldn't be coming in here. And she said, I'm the one that should come to you and apologize. I said, no, no, I said this. I'm teasing you. I said, I'm teasing you for a purpose. But I says, I know I'm teasing you. I said, you not hurt. But I never heard a human being cry like she cried. I thought there was a tremendous depth in there and a tremendous power that she was working under pressure, she was working under. And she just worked under somebody, like somebody that would hold her mouth shut and then leave loose and she'd blow.

dm5-18:52

She didn't solve. She just blow. She'd blow out a great big G of air and gasp. And then she seemed like she'd hold her breath again. She'd blow out another, again, it was a strange, almost like a convulsion type of thing. And it really touched me because I could see, I've seen a lot of women weep and you say, well, who knows what the cause of it is or what the game is. Sometimes it's a game. But this girl was suffering inside. But she did that several times and she didn't drive me away because I understood what was behind it. But other people didn't understand. I was, but that didn't let her off the hook. She had to realize that other people couldn't look over it. That was the whole point. So you

Speaker 1

dm5-19:38

Finally ended up happening with

Speaker 2

dm5-19:39

Her? She just left. I used to go out about every two years to visit the kids Arizona. And while I was gone, I left them in the house. When I come back, she was gone, which I suspected she was because she didn't like to, she'd tell everybody girls would be playing little games. One girl was leaving and they had a little party for, it was close to her birthday, and she'd go ahead to get back to her job up in Ohio and had some of the boys in from the farm. This girl went upstairs and took off, took her come back down in a pair of hot pants with no underwear on the one that was leaving. Yeah, the one that was her birthday was coming up and her name was Stanford. Stanford. And her hair was, she kept down little, like she was drunk. She drank a whole too. She slid off her chair down underneath the table, and she had these haw pans on and her pubic hair was sticking out each side of the pants. And Larry Ferrari was, you look like a chicken. Morning's. Not

Speaker 1

dm5-20:50

Here. I meant here, here.

Speaker 2

dm5-20:55

But Janice says, Hey lady Karen, not as drunk as she called her shots

Speaker 1

dm5-21:16

Saying You never heard from her After she left.

Speaker 2

dm5-21:19

Jack heard from her just the other day.

Speaker 1

dm5-21:21

I like to know whatever happened to me.

Speaker 2

dm5-21:22

Did you know?

Speaker 1

dm5-21:23

No, I just,

Speaker 2

dm5-21:25

Yeah, I thought she did. She wrote the same goal. That's her. Whatever happened to her. She wrote to Jake and said something of, what was it she, I think she asked him if she was a member. He wrote from books.

Speaker 1

dm5-21:46

Did she say what she was doing or anything?

Speaker 2

dm5-21:48

I didn't know. No. I just told him, I said, well, if you remember again, Jake told her. I said, hello.

Speaker 1

dm5-21:55

Nobody ever found out what became over.

Speaker 2

dm5-21:57

Well, she moved around. I mean, when she left here, we knew where she went. She over to New Jersey.

Speaker 1

dm5-22:05

Was she ever able to get some more peace or happiness or get herself

Speaker 2

dm5-22:09

Straight? I don't know. I never talked to her. She used to call me when she was was up in Pittsburgh. She had a strange way talking conversation. She would say Hello? And I say, hello, person. Busy silence. Five minutes. Well, I ain't kidding you. Two or three minutes. He goes by nose. Yeah. And I want to say, well, what are you doing? Well, I just wondered, what do you want? It's a painful, trying to get a message over the phone. She'd be the one I called. I thought it was, she called for a purpose, said, wait, what happened? Did your mother die? The stock market crash,

Speaker 3

dm5-23:04

Blow up the you rediscovered, you rede where Atlantis really is. Yeah.

Speaker 2

dm5-23:10

Really worth shaking Shit like that. Never didn't know, except she just, I knew too that what she wanted to do was call, but I always thought she had something to say. She's the one to call. She had a boyfriend. She had a boyfriend in Pittsburgh. And she'd go up, see him and she'd come back and say, I hate that town. I know when I get up there, this is my home. Where I think what caused it was her mother was sort of masculine looking woman who had had one child who's a very feminine girl. But she showed me pictures with the kids and you could tell she's domestic. Domestic K type. Then the father went to war. The father was pretty years when World War II came along. But he took off for war and his wife's pregnant with Janice. And then during this period, she showed me photos of his house guests. They had lived. There was woman. So I think there was a real conflict on prior to pregnancy that Janice never consciously, the child was born. Strangely, I don't think she could. When she dressed, she couldn't tell anything about her chest because she had, I never met a person that there was no sexual attraction at all. I wouldn't say none at all, but I mean, that wasn't the point. See, because she went to Pittsburgh to see her boyfriend periodically.

dm5-25:05

She went up for six, which was, it's none of my business. We were friends. But I know every time I want to go to Pittsburgh to talk or I didn't have a car, I had old car but wasn't mine, and she had a car, she'd drive me out. But what I get a kick out of was these other girls would say, well, can I go too? And I'd say to me, they'd come to me and say, can I walk up with you to Pittsburgh? And I'd say, well, I'm, I'm not going in my car. You'd have to ask Janice. And they'd walk over to her and say, can we go with you? And she'd say, no. No reason to. No.

dm5-25:46

So then that put me in a position where I had to go get my car the next time and I go with Janice, take the girls up the next time. See? So they could go. I remember one time I was riding up to Pittsburgh. Sounds like a cat. Fight the time. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I had a chicken coop. Yeah, right. I had a chicken coop. Oh, I'm so glad. It's that crosses. It's gone. Oh, they were good people though. They were a lot of help. We had tacos and stuff. We did a lot of work. That's natural. That's perfect. As an old dude, it was one of the symbols. They tell me in the Chinese script, the Japanese script, unhappy or misery, it's a gly of two women under one roof.

dm5-26:38

And even the mother-in-law can't have her in there. But we was going up to Pittsburgh one day and I said to Janice, I said, I kind of feel close to you. I feel like you, he'd have known you a long time or you're somebody. We get along pretty. I said, do you ever think about being in connection with sex? And she says, yeah. She says, it's funny. She says, there's ties that I look at you and I'm not aware of that you're your age. She says, there's what I'd expect my brother to be his age or something like that. Then she says, there's other times I look at you and by God, you're an old man. I really appreciate her, really appreciate her honesty because she just was, no offense, she wasn't offended, didn't ever mean to defend people, I don't think. But she was just impatient. If she thought she didn't, she had to come up combat. Why? She'd give you the combat, I guess.

Speaker 1

dm5-27:57

Sounds like she's one of those people that just never learned to edit what she thought versus what she screwed.

Speaker 2

dm5-28:05

Yeah. Yeah. All the cop pulled her over one time. She had a crazy way she would dress in, which she looked entirely different. She had glasses that were tinted. She looked, I mean, it made her look. Hell like prettier what she was, the way she fixed her hair and stuff. And she looked about eight years younger than actually she was too when she had her coat on and a glass and stuff. So a cop pulled her over up in Pittsburgh. She's doing something wrong. He says, little girl, he thought she was 18 old. I said, little girl. He said, you're not supposed to be driving on the side of the street or whatever. And so she looks up at him and says, well, tell me what the fuck I'm supposed to do. I said, just pull over here and I'll give you a ticket. That's what you're supposed to do. I knew exactly, exactly. She didn't mean it to be insulting. That was her standard adjective. She didn't mean to insult a guy or show disrespect. It was just universal adjective that solves all problems. Verb arb adjective says, ask you what an ad verb was. And he says, it's a female verb.

=== File dm6 ===
Time: 30:48

Speaker 1

dm6-00:01

I get super sensitive to the input. Yeah. All comes in at once. Yeah. God, but how can you go from that state of super cautiousness to a state of, that's the odd. Pretty like that both gets a critic. They say

Speaker 2

dm6-00:19

That's what it is. It's the same thing. Only it begins to overload the system,

Speaker 1

dm6-00:23

Don't you think? Yes. Schizo. They cover all sins. Psychology is full of meaningless words. That's right.

Speaker 2

dm6-00:35

Hey, all these people are ready to take down your pearls of wisdom.

Speaker 1

dm6-00:39

Well, my pearls of

Speaker 2

dm6-00:41

Wisdom. You got to be much today.

Speaker 1

dm6-00:42

Well,

Speaker 2

dm6-00:43

You get to put out some of what you've been taking in.

Speaker 1

dm6-00:45

Yeah. The funny thing is, this is the truth too, by the way. I have such a lousy attitude about my own thoughts. I figured if you want to be interested in what I had to say, there's something dangerously wrong with you.

Speaker 2

dm6-01:02

Darn that. Well, that isn't true.

Speaker 1

dm6-01:04

No, it isn't mouth. I know it isn't.

Speaker 2

dm6-01:05

Is your mouth shut?

Speaker 1

dm6-01:06

Yeah. I know it isn't true, but I do truly feel that way. Yeah. My self image, your cell phone image goes to hell if you can't work every day. Can't work every home. Don't say you had Rob with George. He quit working.

Speaker 3

dm6-01:21

Dad, do you want me to throw that away

Speaker 1

dm6-01:22

Please? He's got mustard on.

Speaker 3

dm6-01:25

All right. I'll just be careful. Thanks. Down the whole system. Figured that was better than you seen

Speaker 1

dm6-01:32

Trying to figure out what you doing. I got my suburban already to camp out and the motorcycle all geared up here take off the disappear. That's

Speaker 2

dm6-01:46

A fighting system over.

Speaker 1

dm6-01:48

Sure. Well, I have own business, but sometimes family work, I couldn't in the system. No way, shape, or I have

Speaker 2

dm6-01:59

A question. Have your own business. You should know each other. Right just now. I was thinking if you have your own business and you're looking for a job where you wouldn't have to work every day, maybe he talk about it.

Speaker 1

dm6-02:13

My luck. He won't be the three of you. There's just one problem. I made the mistake, George, a recent building, a shock passed to my mom's house and she skipped you made a mistake. That was a tactical error. She's schizophrenic. Boy. I live with her. Anything happens, any stress, she goes her mind go, woo. She'd been that way all her life. Sure. Not

Speaker 2

dm6-02:44

Jim can be. Jim can handle.

Speaker 1

dm6-02:50

Jim can handle anything but himself.

Speaker 2

dm6-02:52

See, you need him as a business manager. Fuck

Speaker 1

dm6-02:55

Mom. You're violating this brave new world of, or might be conceived a brave new world.

Speaker 4

dm6-03:03

Yeah,

Speaker 1

dm6-03:03

Which the man is perfectly understanding of. Yeah. Well, I never didn't get along too well with women. There's not many female philosophers around.

Speaker 2

dm6-03:16

I don't think that's true.

Speaker 1

dm6-03:21

Used to be a bar in El Grove that said no women allowed. That was your hide up, huh? I used to tell minister had an all female congregation and all they did was get up and sayle any You said that line up, single file. No pushing, no shoving direct minds. I reversed the situation on my wife or she did on me. She said Jimmy Carter. She said Jimmy Carter always screws up the collection of presidents. Did you get that one, Jim? Yeah. I was a little wild. It was a little wild coming.

Speaker 4

dm6-04:40

Want

Speaker 1

dm6-04:46

We are going to have to make this room convertible, throw a couple of latches and put a couple of pullies out and wind the walls up. Then we'll be sitting out on the world's greatest porch. Of course, we will have to do something about the span here. You won't be able to hold the roof up with nothing. I've often wondered about the span in this cover craft. Hey, Richard, what built this room? Did you guys build this roof? Yeah, sure. Larry did it. What kind of span did he have in here? That's a hell of a span to have post reconstruction electrical. Did you buy pre-built joists or what did you do? This Larry over here. Oh, we did a hell of a nice job. Boy. This is the ideal rec room someplace on God's earth where you're under roof and don't have to worry about tracking a little muddy. Don't believe it. There's signs on the door that says, take off your shooting. There's a lot of nice woods down there to walk around. You can meet a prisoner here and there. They bought it off. There's a lot you.

Speaker 2

dm6-06:15

Yeah, that's right. You were here for the, weren't you the what? There was this. They brought all their cattle. Now they crew.

Speaker 1

dm6-06:22

Oh, did they? Hundred of cattle. No kidding. What were they changing pasture or what? Of course. See, you talk about being totally at a loss. You put me in the middle of a farm and say, well, Jim, there it is. It's all yours. All the bills are paid. You don't have a thing to worry about. I wouldn't know where the hell to start. Well, I don't know, but when you think about it, tens of billions of people born, gone through life and died that never laid eyes on a farm and without the farm. Where the hell are you? It seems to me it'd be the first thing you'd want to teach a child. You realize

Speaker 2

dm6-07:05

That's what we're going to need to notice.

Speaker 1

dm6-07:06

Well work on a farm. Yeah. You realize the scope of my education down through life. Well, that's the point I'm making. That's the reason you've come through this thing like such a rolling stone. He hasn't even lost his moss. Look, you amaze me man. I kid you not. I'll tell you right to your face. I don't know how the hell you've done it. I know one thing. I got another third to go to catch you and it's going to be a rough third if I can. I haven't gotten anything done yet.

Speaker 2

dm6-07:40

Cj, instead of putting him away in an institution, they put him away in the seminary. That's why without drugs.

Speaker 1

dm6-07:47

Well, I got a formula. If anybody wants it, if you're young enough to start on it, then that is always be unsatisfied with what you're doing. Well, that comes to me automatically. I'm never satisfied if I do something and I'm always just starting something else. Not the same thing. Trying to do it better, but just starting on something else then totally different. Well, there was a time in my life when I was using that very much as a tool and as a matter of fact, it was right after my period of meditation when I found out that I couldn't do that anymore. Try to get too much into psychic stuff. No, it was entirely pragmatic. In other words, I found out that the only way I could escape having my mind run away from me was by keeping it busy at something new. What

Speaker 4

dm6-08:33

Do you mean

Speaker 1

dm6-08:33

Run away from me? Run away from me pal. Mel, you talk a real schizophrenic interlude episode that have meditation. Yeah. That's when I first discovered that part of the problem is that it looking for, how long did you meditate before this happened? I had about three good years. Three years. You slowly went within? Yeah, I don't think so. It seemed like he must have progressed awful fast to get to those levels where you just Well, that's the reason I make such a comment about the teen years in my teen years. If it came to my mind that I wanted to do it, I could do it. There was no time spent. Of course, at the time I didn't know it. I had nothing to compare it to. It was only later that I realized how damnably remarkable it was. Okay, now if you take drugs, Alize it or whatever they give you, does that slow your mind down and you can kind of meditate when you're taking the drug I'm on now, you couldn't meditate if it were your life. It cuts you right straight through here. It performs a chemical lobotomy. You lose the ability to identify with yourself and in so doing, you lose these circles of trap thoughts that keep repeating. Oh, you don't have those? No. The medicine is the reason

Speaker 2

dm6-09:56

When you stop the medicine, they're very waiting for.

Speaker 1

dm6-09:59

They're just sitting there waiting for you. Can you meditate? Rebound? No, because it's that area. You have to know to reach the other side. You have to be able to go through there successfully. Oh, you mean the meditation kind of numbs your mind? No, it doesn't numb it. It releases it. It takes the responsibility of taking care of every second. It takes that away. You put part of your system on automatic. That was why I made that remark about teaching my body to accept the fact that right now your mind, can you make your mind pretty empty right now? It is pretty empty. Yeah. I don't have any run-ons. Is it real? As a matter of fact, it is. Then nothing there. Nothing. Okay. See your next 10 trip around so long, guys. Guys take care. Can you keep it empty for long periods of time? Like right now?

Speaker 4

dm6-10:51

Yeah.

Speaker 1

dm6-10:51

Yeah. I don't have any trouble with it, but if you didn't take the medication, that would come Nia. That's right, but you know what I do? I go on meditation for, I go on medicine for a week. Then I stay off it for a week so that I don't build up a backlog.

Speaker 2

dm6-11:06

That's really good.

Speaker 1

dm6-11:08

It took me a long time to learn that. If I tried to tell my psychiatrist I was doing that, he'd flip his way.

Speaker 3

dm6-11:14

Well, you bet you he would.

Speaker 1

dm6-11:16

But that's the only way you can do it because if you don't, you change anxiety in for depression. I mean, when you come, if you stop, if you don't take a little bit of it every other week, you get depressed. You get depressed. You got real depressed. Yeah.

Speaker 2

dm6-11:33

Well, sleeping pills interfere with dreaming sleep. So when somebody gets off of sleeping pills, they have what's called REM rebound.

Speaker 4

dm6-11:41

It's

Speaker 2

dm6-11:41

The same thing with the medicine. If you take it consecutively for six months, that stuff's all stacking up. That's right. And it'll

Speaker 1

dm6-11:49

Rebound on you. It's murdered. You've got a hell of a lot of homework you have to do when you get into that position. There's a tremendous failure in psychology or psychiatry when they have to prescribe continuous medication. There's something wrong. See, because I can see it, but guys has a crisis. Okay, down. How else can they deal with schizophrenia? Oh, there's no such thing as schizophrenia. Okay. You said there's no such thing. There is, but it's possession. I know people that only schizophrenia and I recognize is possession. You think it's possession, huh? No. No. I don't recognize, I don't say he's possession. I'm saying that's the only schizophrenia I recognize. The words means two personalities. Schizo or split personality. See, this isn't split personality. They're ascribing a lot of stuff to schizophrenia. That is just a man's upset. A man wants to scream. He wants to scream. He don't dare scream, and he got to hold the screaming. So instead of screaming, he jumps to a plate glass window and he's a schizophrenia. Well, in some mental hospitals they'll diagnose like most of the things like manic oppressiveness or man depressive. Well, other, that's basically more of what he'd be diagnosed at. Anyhow, the main depressive a schizophrenic. He's, he's not too personalities. He's just high and low. But I know people that can't get along without blood. Well, that's because of the damn many doctors. That's doctors. They try effect. There's an environmental thing.

Speaker 2

dm6-13:24

So if it was managed depression, somebody which purely this medication off something that, but I know people Lithium would be flip out. That would have you,

Speaker 1

dm6-13:34

I know a girl wants to go up here and preach the Christmas completely. That's all right. That's all right. But there's a cure for that. And see, I maintain law. She goes a psychiatrist now and she's on medication as long as she stays on her medication. But if she doesn't take it for a few days, she gets, you can tell by looking at her mind is know. She's getting that psychotic insight again.

Speaker 2

dm6-13:54

That's the rebound.

Speaker 1

dm6-13:56

Hey. But you see George, the whole thing is that she, there's two things that they're not talking about. She's rebound. I know, but unless she'd had that medication would've been really, she was messed up. No, no. Don't you? I had to grab her and take her into psych three. Well, you took her to the wrong place for the love of Christ. I did. I shoulda took her into the back room. She was sick. Still sick. Sure. Who's sick? You got a chance to be a healer and do something without there. Call put my mind on her hand. No, I'm serious. You're talking about medication. Sometimes people don't need medication. All they needs sex. That's what caused her trouble. She got Jill by a boyfriend, right? Absolutely. Set her off. See how old 22. There's nothing wrong with her, but there will be if she gets medication. She was right for picking. Huh? Early twenties are a rough time.

Speaker 4

dm6-14:53

Yeah.

Speaker 1

dm6-14:54

Yeah. But it's, I don't question what happens. Don't say sex, but it's good to face the idea that sex caused it and then go from there. See, but not pills. I think not everything. I think the sex causes loss. Sure, sure. Misuse is the problem. I talked to a guy, a black guy that was in charge in West Virginia. We used to have two types of nuthouse and white and black. Of course, I think it was a good idea because I think that the black people had more compassion. Black supervisor had more compassion for the inmates than the white supervisor. Black inmates depend. I was down here in Lincoln, West Virginia. I happened to be down there in town in the carnival and this guy came and I got him aside and I said, I was always asking questions of people around. So I said, Hey. I said, what's the cause of insanity? What brings all those people to these nut houses? And he says very simply, I was amazed because black people can say things very succinctly sometimes with a limited vocabulary. And he says they didn't keep their pecker in their pants. He says, no. And I was amazed because see, this is the psychiatrist will tell you just the exact opposite. Right. Right. But that's what Im saying. You're right. That's what I say because sure, this is your Skinnerian approach, which is drain the wild man and he is the wild. See,

dm6-16:25

I think sex can be beneficial for 20-year-old girls. No, for people that are love, don't take me literally. I think it can even be raised to a level of a spiritual experience.

dm6-16:39

I do too. What's that type of yoga chemistry's called anointing by the guru transmission. We know where the, I mean I had this book in Dallas. Dallas, Dallas, sex. I had this book to Dallas Sex and what you do is you dial sex Dow, DOW dow do the zin. What is that? Dow is D. Yeah, yin and yang. Y and the yang. And it taughts you how to yang. What you do, you get, what you do is you get to the point he comes in, the conversation goes to hell. You get to the point of orgasm and you stop it. So after you practice it a while, you can have prostate cancer. This way a man can have dry orgasms and actually can go on for hours.

Speaker 3

dm6-17:55

All they're doing is ejaculating into their bladder. That's so bad for you. Co retrograde ejaculation. If they're having orgasm, if they're having orgasms.

Speaker 1

dm6-18:03

Well, I think there is an orgasm. I It's just vibration. Am I glad I came down supposed to be a way of getting control over this thing, so never tried chomping it off. No, no, no, no. Don't be so damn radical. Wait till it's working real good and tying out in it. Am I glad I came? You could read that several ways. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Oh boy. That cold cows. I'm glad somebody around here have to drink coffee. That goose piece they give you in the restaurants. Unless the God, because the goose would come in and get goose up from here on out. Yeah. Read what some away. Glad he came. You can read that sentence. I didn't tell you. I did. You just came. No, no, no. Enough off that much. Nothing. Enough enough, Mr. Well, no, George, if you're going to be a healer, you're going to have to report for class longer morning. That's happened happening here right now. My intellectual down, all my bios cleared down my field, but that happened. My hands. Hands. Do

Speaker 4

dm6-19:38

You really believe that?

Speaker 1

dm6-19:39

Huh? My hands got like, yeah, my wife didn't believe it and I did a couple times with her and she came about a week ago and she had a no,

Speaker 2

dm6-19:46

No, no. I meant about the bio rhythms.

Speaker 1

dm6-19:48

Wait a minute. Yeah, bio rhythms really works for me, but everybody's not on it. But about five or six days ago, she had a migraine headache. I mean it was horrible. And I put my hands on her head and they get real hot like heating pads and I put my state mind in that state of oneness and then just nothing. Just stay there and I can feel the energy actually going in my hands get like heating pads and God just down. She couldn't believe it. So she's a believer now away she gets a headache. Convert your mother and you're going to live in peace. Oh god. Really?

Speaker 2

dm6-20:24

Put your hands on. Be careful.

Speaker 1

dm6-20:28

Careful. You might be going. That's true. That's true. When I did this, I did this. This is good with this girl, with this spasm my hands where they get kind of cramped like it's going into my hands. Yeah. Schizophrenia,

Speaker 2

dm6-20:43

Make sure you're not doing the zap and stuff that he was talking about.

Speaker 1

dm6-20:47

The what? Transferring energy. Yeah.

Speaker 2

dm6-20:51

Well,

Speaker 1

dm6-20:51

That's what probably happens if you go around partnering around sex with people that there's not really love involved. There's probably, it could be negative courses transferred. Actually entities probably just hang around these places the same way as beer joints. I mean these entities are just waiting. But I'm saying if this is with somebody and there's it's higher level, I think it can be raised with spiritual. So I think there's great danger because that's a beautiful thought to have when you're having sex. That's the only way to do entities really to see, that's what I'm saying. There are all these negative forces around, so you have to be careful who you fool around with

Speaker 3

dm6-21:29

And you've got to have a real reference mind while you're doing. What I found, that's been my experience, is that when I've been involved in situations where was making love and it was a real reference. It's not just for one another for God and creation, and

Speaker 1

dm6-21:46

I think that's the proper word to use, making love. There's

Speaker 2

dm6-21:51

A difference between making love and having sex.

Speaker 1

dm6-21:52

Oh yes.

dm6-21:55

Sex is sick. Sex is like having your morning cup of coffee. But I mean it really is. Sex has no with sex, with love. I'll tell you, I guarantee that 50%, maybe 60, 70, 80% of the people here is going to leave here blowing bubbles or chanting to themselves or something. The way this conversation's going, I'm trying to keep up with it. I'm sure it'll stop my head before the days and start your what? No, I mean really. I think a life celibacy is preferable. Sex or things without deep relationship waste of time. I think life is sick. I two things. That life isn't healthy as one and justice is another. Yeah. There's no justice there. Any

Speaker 2

dm6-22:47

Police station. You find that out? Is there some? Okay, but remember what we were talking about before about how the universe is lawful there some type of ultimate justice that is beyond this dimension.

Speaker 1

dm6-22:59

Let's hope.

Speaker 2

dm6-23:00

Is there justice?

Speaker 3

dm6-23:01

Sure, sure, sure. But don't expect too much, but not something

Speaker 1

dm6-23:05

I can look for. But not as long as you're willing. You got to get beyond willingness to happen. Right. You see what you're occupying is a burial ground. Yeah. And there's the ultimate aim of life. Did you ever stop to think what the purposes? I don't know. I think maybe I've written it down someplace in the transmission papers maybe that you have little bugs upon the backs to divide them other bugs themselves united. But this is a scale of one form of life digesting another, feeding off another. I think I read that in one of your papers one time. Yeah. Until you get to a point where you are able, the highest form of life presumably is the highest. It's the most expensive thing on the menu for the entities.

Speaker 4

dm6-23:52

Oh yeah.

Speaker 1

dm6-23:53

You see what I mean? They're always waiting. So basically when you get to talking about justice, and if this is the aim of life, you got propagation here to keep, it's like raising a dairy herd. The farmer raises the dairy herd and he keeps expanding his herd all the time and taking care of his herd. And occasionally they get too old. He makes bologna out of the cow and the cow says, that's unjust because I served my master and gave me milk all these years. Now I become bologna. Why don I go to heaven or decent pasture or something like that. No, the purpose is as long as you're in the energy game, then you're going to be energy for fertilizing the soil or for energy food. Yeah. You got to get beyond all that.

dm6-24:43

You don't expect people without any higher aid or any knowledge of what's going on. You should not expect anything more than the justice of the soil, which is absorption. You're going to be absorbed. That's all. And it doesn't matter how you go. You may have been in human terms. See, this is a mistake that people make a human activity divine God makes man in his own image and likeness. Yeah. Okay. Then he ascribes to that God, which he insists that God have human values in his justice. See, so as I said, what does it matter whether a child dies? You see a little baby killed. Oh, that's terrible. Why couldn't that child suffer for 80 years? Sometimes I never judge when. But the eternal soul seems to go beyond all the what? Eternal soul. Don't confuse me unless fairytales. Now we've got to prove that before we accept it. The eternal

Speaker 3

dm6-25:41

We define our terms at least.

Speaker 1

dm6-25:42

Yeah. Eternal soul. We don't know. That's a steam off the pile. Okay. The real self that lies beyond the mind and the body. It lies where beyond the mind and the body, the inner self, your sentence is dramatically incorrect. You can't ride between and be honest at the same time. What do you think? Observe. If your mind and your body, it must be something that objects. You read my book? No, not necessarily your book, but if you go within, I know George, but you see we're taking basics. We're taking some things that are evident, not from looking out in the higher plane, but for this plane.

Speaker 4

dm6-26:28

It

Speaker 1

dm6-26:28

Doesn't take much to see that. You go out in the grass up there and you wonder, all these little boats come from, they're already up there, eat each other. That's survival. And you've got the chicken eating the bugs and we're eating the chicken. We probably should eat the shit, right? Well, I don't know. I don't know. Again, we were engineered. We were engineered with canine tea. So I don't believe that you have to be a vegetarian necessarily. If you conform to your natural pattern, it doesn't matter what you eat. It's what eats you.

Speaker 2

dm6-27:02

If Jesus said it's not what goes into your mouth, but what comes out of your mouth that makes you cleaner or needed?

Speaker 1

dm6-27:16

Well, I talked too much. Remember I told you I had that conscious dream where I was pulling these leashes out of my mouth, my whole dream. I was consciously aware of dream. That's almost like a psychic picture of That's a vision. The energy coming out. See, there's something tappy like me, I talk too much with my over soul. When or something was telling me something to shut my damn mouth. Yeah, right. Great. Not coming out of it. No. I had this dream and the whole dream during the whole dream, I very seldom dream anyway. See, I just sleep

Speaker 3

dm6-27:51

Wake you s remember your day.

Speaker 1

dm6-27:53

Yeah. I very s remember because I can usually sleep anytime I want. Just my mind. I can usually put my mind just completely empty and just sleep during the day. Anytime I want. Just go to sleep, let sound to asleep for 15 minutes. Wake up anytime I walk. See, this time I had some disturbance. I had some disturbance, some things that just bothered me disturbing. Okay. And I think that's what shook things up. These things, that family and so forth that had me kind of shook up and anyway, I had this dream and during the whole dream I was completely, although I was sound asleep, I was completely,

dm6-28:28

My conscious mind was watching everything. The fact is I was trying to watch it and be careful because I wanted to see what's going on. And sometimes the more you try to do that more, you break it up. Break it up. Like last night, last night I was watching this, my mind is usually just dark and empty. There's no pictures, no nothing, no thoughts. Unless I want to think. But last night, for example, I had a picture right in here and I was right at between wake and sleep. But actually I had to wake, but I was still with that level. But when I really tried to concentrate, then I was just kind of wake up. But what I'm saying about the dream, I had this vision that I was pointing things from my mouth and I looked, you ever pulled leches off a snapping turtle?

dm6-29:20

But I think that that was something my oversold or something's trying to tell me something. Shut my damn mouth talk. Well, I think it's the energy. See what happens is there seems to be more energy put out. At least myself. I put out more energy talking that I do working. I can go around the hill and shop wood all day and enjoy it. And it doesn't fatigue me. I feel good that night and the next day. But when I come out here for these meetings and stuff for the next day, oh you're drained. You're drain. If you deal with negative people, you're drained. You can go meditate and you can really get state of peace. But you deal with negative people. They take, they drain you voice. That's no great flattering entire establish your group. But negative people, these characters in the bar,

Speaker 3

dm6-30:05

You remember what

Speaker 1

dm6-30:27

I believe? Everybody is set the premise I work. In other words, when you put yourself in a position where you say, I'm going to do this and I'm going to keep doing it in terms of what put your brother wants. When you don't call the shots, sometimes a person comes to healed and they to teach.

=== File dm7 waiting reset ===
Time: 30:04

=== File dm8 waiting reset ===
Time: 30:28

=== File 9 ===
Time: 12:39

Speaker 1

dm9-00:02

Anyway, she was standing there. She's laughing like hell. And I guess this girl at the bar who had it in for me, she was going like this, A, C, D, C. Everybody had their eyes cleared on the restroom door. So when I walk out with this guy, this girl was going good. I didn't know what was going on. I was drinking too much. I said, no, what the hell is happening? Do you remember what happened? Oh yeah. Anyway, the counter was here and these two waitresses were behind the bar. And he was standing here and I was standing. My wife was here. And I said, how are you drinking? I said, I was transferring the oneness to him. And he said, my wife told me this later. I knew what I said, but I mean everybody was doing, and this waitress was mattered. Hell and thought, and they're doing something. And I said to him, how was it meaning the one and this waitress the counter was here and she was just thinking we were behind the counter. Like I says, how was the oneness? And she was going like this, trying to see what was going on. He says it was different, huh? A real didn't himself. No, he said it was different.

dm9-01:35

They think I'm a damn homo. What makes you so happy? You should be protesting. Not happy. How can you protest when you protest? That's like, you're like the old woman that went to confession. Huh? You like you a woman that went to confession. You confessing the same sin over and over. We didn't confess to the priest. She had adult heard and the priest heard it a couple of times and he said, how old are you? He says, oh, I'm 70. He says, how can every week you come in here, you have adult adultery? She says, how can you keep this up? She says, oh, I don't keep it up. She says, this happened 40 years ago. And he says, well, you don't have to confess this over and over. She said, yes, father. But I get so much pleasure getting it off my chest again.

dm9-02:27

I'm getting this off my chest. To me, that's a study in how things are illusion or distorted. How things are distorted. I mean, people don't really Yeah, but you're violating the rules. If you look at the fact that we've told the story in such a way so that we would laugh and that we would I was laughing at you. I think it's funny, it's hilarious. But to me it's a study. Is it one of those cases about Dutch protest Too much? It is a classic study and distortion. People don't really see what's there. They see what they want to see. They distort. I How many people were in penitentiary because of crimes that didn't labeled? People love to label. Well, these people love the big dirt. They love the gossip. Especially these kind of people you find in bars. Well, of course you accused this woman of being whatever, because she was doing what she was doing to make a living.

dm9-03:31

Just, she just, she's in the bartender. She's a bartender. But I'm just saying that I think that maybe this was just a way of getting even for that. She really loved the, she just took advantage of an opportunity. I mean, I did it to myself was she was pped. She thought she turn, I mean I did it to myself. You don't go to a bar and say, well, let's transfer to oneness now. Right. And didn't walk into the restroom. I say, you're violating. You're violating your, you do. If you're my brother, you're violating the code. You're violating the code. Well, I mean that's setting yourself up. No, no, no. Not what you, me setting yourself up. You can't. Brother's gossip. Sure, sure. You're setting yourself up for, especially by weeks ago, having had woman plus they know you're in sight. Look at your wife. What said know what your wife said while you was in there. Oh, she was having a ball. Them all fired up. She thought it was funnier than hell. She just laughed and around. But I mean, hell, I mean, I had a lot to drink. I wouldn't have really known what was going on. I mean, I didn't know what they were doing. People talked behind your backs. Yeah. But if you didn't, what was no longer, you're paranoid, schizo, het know what was going on. So something they didn't know what was going on either. Behind closed doors.

dm9-04:58

My intuition goes behind those doors. You have asphalt tv. Are you hearing voices and seeing themes? Yeah. Psych. So you can do baseball, bat therapy. I like that. I say a lot of pills. No, but I think there's very little truth I think might have distort. Oh, sure, sure. But I'll tell you the funny thing is I found that I couldn't talk about the philosophical things even in business, much less than the, I'm breaking all the rules. Yeah, you go. Being drunk in the first place and getting into you waiting until the philosophers, you said yourself, who hangs people? People that this is a great therapy joint. These are the real essential therapy units. Everybody goes in there. I wrote a poem one time about the Burberry. It's something like all saw a line of men standing at the bar looking in the glass. Each man sees himself of God, the next man, but an ass.

dm9-06:27

The cattle leak, protective liquor. I can't remember too much, but that was what it was. He blames. He sits there and he blames his wife or my wife has died. And now alone. You hear all these are stereotypes. Anytime you went a bar, you can lay down a list of titles and those would be the complaints. Or the boostings. I'd have made a million. But sometimes they don't have a way to blame it on. So they blame it on something else down the street. It's the reluctance to let go of the deprived daygo. The guy deprived his, he never made any money. So instead of saying, well, I never made any money, he says, I'd have had it. But alcoholic, the great morning. The great morning, the wife died. The mornings, I never forget. One time my oldest brother was reported, the truck driver, he reported dead. He got a telegram and he was dead.

dm9-07:44

I told my father, there came telegram I, my mother's living here and I came out here and told her, she run her hands and the first thing she said was she didn't have a insurance. I thought, Jesus, here, shocker, I bury, take a shovel. We bury the body in short. But her head went right through that boom. And my aunt was here at the time and she says, well contact Meyer immediately. Don't let out the body you. That's very important. The guy ain't dead now. We're still holding a very sacred body or something. Then I went back in and hung my father up. My father had started in south weeding. We got the message and he stopped in every birds. Everybody weeding knew him. And he'd go in and he'd say, I got some bad news today, son. Telegram. My son's dead. A bartender to a free drink across the counter. By the time I got to, he was drunk in a skunk. See? And I couldn't take it. Hey, I left out. I left out. I come back. I'm try to, that guy drinking and one woman fighting over where he goes to the Catholic cemetery or not another one, breathing to his insurance. What the hell did the son mean to the mother?

dm9-09:26

So I went away for a couple of days and I didn't see any obituary in the newspaper. And I came back here. It was a phony. Did you ever find out how it happened? You already said it. He said it. Oh, it was a joke. Yeah. Just see what you all would do. Yeah, I guess. I don't know. He wasn't too much of a code and he had a clock behind it had I thought that he may have had a scheme to try to disappear and collect his insurance or something. But he didn't have any insurance. Oh yeah. Truck guy. The truck out there, he drove towards. He said that, I don't think he did.

dm9-10:08

Wreck was in a wreck. Wreck, wreck. And we called the trucking company, see? And they said Yes, there has been wreck I think was killed. So of course that made us believe he was dead, but they just hadn't the rub out from the body. Well Larry, what do you think? Yeah, better hit the road. Lemme get my stuff. Lot of hours of daylight left. Yeah, but some promises made. I said I'd try to get home about six. Me too. I always thought that. Oh, they get, they're real therapists. They're real therapists. They know exactly how to act. They know exactly what to say to each one. Don't get much gratitude. Yeah. Four worlds around me to hold up my life. Slipping away. Ky, hold it. You didn't bring your fiddle down. Oh yes I did. Did you bring it out where the guitar pick? No, there'd be one or two of around here. We've got a guitar around here someplace haven't where Shorty? Who? Mandel. He didn't come down, I don't think. That used to get written up. Newspapers gave it up for Zen and he gave Zen up for Fish Restaurant. There is a good dog. I think I better, thanks a.

=== File dm-version 2 tape side 1 ===
Waiting reset

Time 29:50 - might be #3

=== File dm-version-2 tape side 2 ===
Waiting reset

Time 28:55 - might be #4

== Footnotes ==
== End ==
</div>

1982-0417-Spring-TAT-Mtg-Rose-and-Burns

2026-01-04T03:12:22Z

Dmadmin: Add Category:1982-0417

{{Page header}}
[[Category:1980s]]
[[Category:Farm]]
[[Category:Informal Talks]]
[[Category:Rose and Burns]]
[[Category:Burns]]
[[Category:To Resolve]]
[[Category:1982-0417]]
<div id="widthlimiter">
== Data Template ==



{{Recording Data
|record-date = Either TAT meeting or intensive, may be a mash.
|location =
|number-tapes = 4 cassettes, sides numbered 1 - 8 but 3 and 4 are missing.
|source = Dave Mettle
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s =
|total-time =
|transcription-status =
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf =
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks =
|audio-quality = Very good
|who-is-present =
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

Category:1982-0417

2026-01-04T03:11:52Z

Dmadmin: Create category

{{page_header}}
For trying to resolve various tapes of this date.

1982-0417-DM-version-Spring-TAT-Mtg-Rose-and-Burns-test-2

2026-01-04T03:07:52Z

Dmadmin: Create page

{{Page header}}
[[Category:1980s]]
[[Category:1982-0417]]
<div id="widthlimiter">

1982-0417-mj-version-Spring-TAT-Mtg-Rose-and-Burns-test

2026-01-03T05:33:51Z

Dmadmin: Create test page for searching text

== To Do ==

== Notes ==

This is a test page trying to resolve 1982-Spring-Intensive vs 1982-0417-Spring-TAT-Meeting-Rose-and-Burns

Times:
mj1 -- 19:53

mj2 -- 22:10

mj3 -- 21:34

mj4 -- 16:11

mj5 -- 30:26

mj6 -- 30:16

mj7 -- 18:33
== Transcription ==

=== File mj1 ===
Time: 19:53

Speaker 1

mj1-00:07

That I told my wife. So they crank that up. I heard call my number five right out. And that phone, that was never registered on record. But theoretically what happened was that you got through one operator and getting ready to ring mine it up the exact moment I, my daughter plus miles away, I knew she was very ill react. Well the funny thing was that she, you remember that he was dead or Oh, it was years after died. Years after. No, I, she knew the father's death and his family had the same reaction. He tried to keep him quiet about it. He says in his book, told him not to just cause Yeah. Made him angry that he would say things. Well this is the thing that goes through your head. You, it's only case of emergency. What I not saying reading thing. You're out after the understanding of own.

mj1-04:13

You're not reading the books on real psychology. Let's say scientific psychology, chemical, chemical psychology, bio. I what a lot of this stuff you read about s fair tale better than it gives you a little punch. Punch. But something happens. People have ability. But you read deeply enough into this coming out the last 20 years. It's utterly amazing the revelation. And then also pick up this stuff when you run into something because the gets it. Charles works, one of the guys a couple years ago, I have a back of information he never missed. He just saw same you'd see and drove mother born on the west coast to the he how'd you know, told, they talked over, discuss it. Said, of course the gangster figure too then the needle. But that needle went work run.

mj1-06:43

But he lost that incident. He lost it. So here's what happens when you read these accounts, say bs, but if it isn't, then you find that these stories have called the denominators. This is where the science, this is where the science, how did that boy get that way? When did it and when did it cease? Cease brother said didn't understand. So you start to learn things and these things start to pile up. Common denominators pile up and you say, Hey, we've got a formula. We've got a formula. Think grow rich in his life. Think grow rich. The guy gives a secret book.

mj1-07:45

But you have that your fingertips, you writing on this, you should have a folder full of typed out quotations from the on how to get what success looks. The whole picture. He says the whole picture isn't just common sense biology, biological process. I feel that there's too many, I don't know, I don't know what you're doing. I dunno what guys going where I live. There aren't things you learn. You learn. Tove Magazine, denominator there. Learn about psychology. I believe this. If a person can get, don't just say I believe this. There are many men who have said it

Speaker 2

mj1-09:36

And tell the little stories. I saw guys speak up at in class or physics class from a graduate PhD from Columbia Mechanics, all stuff. His professor ou. And he gave, the title of his lecture was Quantum Mechanics and the Soul. And his ultimate conclusion in the lecture was that each of us has an observer, which is passive. And that we all hooked into God who's an active observer. And he was under the observer psychologist. So after the lecture we had a little coffee tea and I said, there's a bookout called the Psychology Observer. And he was really fascinated. So I got the address in True Disciple,

Speaker 1

mj1-11:04

Nobody way in the family going to be this.

Speaker 2

mj1-11:16

Well he read physics, he too much and he read, which is the next book by the do physics. Same right book. But he heard better things about this other book than he did the Dow physics. But they're at similar conclusions that

Speaker 3

mj1-11:55

Tell you a book that summarizes a lot of those discoveries or trends in science correlating with philosophy is that coincidence little book. It's sort of like the history of the argument kind and psychic phenomena. He covers a lot of the big names and science and where their ultimate thinking led to full circle.

Speaker 1

mj1-12:32

I was taking over all, I think in science Einstein years ago to, you can't get into all that in lecture. You don't dare you mind you have talk Apple. Jesus was a right, right. The powerful. Yeah. Right. His whole style. Well this was in that part of the world to this day story. All biggest part of their moral, their philosophy, decisions, always anecdotes and jokes. I think there's nothing more effective now on a one-to-one basis or

Speaker 2

mj1-15:32

This Campbell workshop, something this church every Wednesday has about 40 people every Wednesday. And he reading stories of from the Sufi book, that's the thing. There's no talk, didn't just work, exercises my father,

Speaker 1

mj1-16:48

All those things that he'd get off a week six. And he wasn't saying he knew, he was expected to themselves down six days.

Speaker 3

mj1-17:56

Well,

Speaker 1

mj1-18:09

I want to hear more about that.

Speaker 4

mj1-19:13

Well, I suppose I hope that I can communicate what I wanted to say people without making

Speaker 3

mj1-19:32

Yeah, the boxes.

=== File mj2 ===
Time: 22:10

Speaker 1

mj2-00:00

Collection of relevant one. The other thing of course is possibly asking some questions. Each person do that. Mr. Rose, one thing I thought about was if you ask other people, they may pick up things from other, like when we did it the first time, everybody wrote down what they thought. The only reason I say that is because then you've got something in front of you you can look at after you get the information. In other words, if you ask me and I say something may contribute to somebody, I don't know. I thought about bringing pencil and paper just for the idea of what does direct ability or direct mind science mean to you? What is it? How does it plenty? And then you could ask questions individually. We got paid for here. Tim,

Speaker 2

mj2-01:40

Up fridge.

Speaker 1

mj2-01:46

You got any extra pencils or pens? Upstairs? Pencils. Is that some of your paper on? I have a whole bunch upstairs so I can do these Signed. No, it's just your own. You got some paper. Paper there. I works. I've got some pencil upstairs.

Speaker 2

mj2-02:55

Eye's Eye out of Levi's secret doctrine was alleged that the force had come from the PI level

Speaker 1

mj2-03:07

Army. This is an interesting thing force. This is an old Tracy origin that the physicist used. It implies that they had some knowledge of this ancient, I actually Genesis of the word laid back and it that they sense that there was a power that people had. I don't know. I haven't run it back myself. That'd be interesting. That's where I saw the reference, right? Well yeah. You'll find it though when just whoever bore. I don't care if I get back. Depends. I'd really like to back.

Speaker 3

mj2-04:13

How about the cigarettes? Yeah. Us. I want back after their smoke. So who needs anybody

Speaker 2

mj2-04:29

Else? Those points? There's a point. Sort of a little point. Good cat.

Speaker 1

mj2-04:46

Anybody else?

Speaker 2

mj2-04:57

Anyone else? Okay. Give me a little. Yeah. Anybody else? Anybody else? Anybody want book the right on seat now

Speaker 1

mj2-05:18

Gordon. I, okay, that's

Speaker 2

mj2-05:51

25

Speaker 1

mj2-05:52

Words or less. 25 words or more. What's the question? What is direct mind science? What is direct mind? How do you understand? What is your understanding of direct mind? I had one other question that Mr. Rose, I said can it be developed or is it a natural gift? And if it can be developed, how often one enhance or develop this directed by the building.

Speaker 2

mj2-07:04

Anybody needs to seat. Here's an extra seat.

Speaker 1

mj2-07:14

True. Like I said, intuition is direct mind ability. Well, yeah, but what's direct mind that we were defining

Speaker 2

mj2-07:36

Rather than saying that direct mind is intuition.

Speaker 1

mj2-07:39

That

Speaker 2

mj2-07:39

Intuition

Speaker 1

mj2-07:40

Is ability. That you have capable direct mind of contact. Do you have any mind? You're not capable, you mean? Well, a person has a direct mind also has intuition. He doesn't have intuition. They'll never have direct mind.

Speaker 3

mj2-08:19

On the other hand, animals have direct minds. They don't have intuition because they don't have a computer that logically analyze things. The ones I talked to did

Speaker 1

mj2-08:45

Knowledge. Being sure of yourself, point of knowledge, form, know there's no doubt about it's form. Okay. But yeah, this is what I'm saying. Achieve that knowledge to be able to be to know has a lot to do with it. We're saying, I think from what you said, Mr. Rose, there is a difference between intuition and direct mind ability. That's the, that's more or less the question. See he defined it as being the direct mind, being intuition. And my question was, isn't there a difference between having intuition and having direct mind abilities? That's more or less what I was saying. You can musically kill an animal.

mj2-09:56

This is what I'm saying. There's a whole field of things attached to it. Now see, this is what we're getting at afraid. It has been in your minds here, people have been limited in the understanding of it. Possibly a way of saying that move on. There's a way of saying this as what direct mind is. It includes this direct mind to a dimension which transcend individual contact this or allow to be free from total identification with an individual mind and thus cause changes to occur in others in the physical world. Miracle to this volume, focus of attention, conservation of energy. And the first

Speaker 2

mj2-11:25

Part,

Speaker 1

mj2-11:25

If you

Speaker 2

mj2-11:25

Look at it as a mind dimension from which

Speaker 1

mj2-11:29

This world springs, you can contact that

Speaker 2

mj2-11:32

Dimension.

Speaker 1

mj2-11:35

You can cause a change weld. This is

mj2-12:16

A passive faculty. What goes on, we don't really know. In some cases we suspect electrical generosity. You pick up. Were tremendous going to now we originally we've got two. Ch talk was planned for June and August. June talk was 19 and 20th, which is a little later than they have been in. We did that for a couple reasons. We thought maybe there'd be less conflict with people who have kids in school have a moment to the picture of. And also we figured all the rain will be able to that time. So we decided on having the dock was in the summer. We also had the bright idea that maybe we should have some talks in various cities where we have cat groups or cat people to help encourage attendance at the Chicagos. And the original idea was to have those talks as mainly a lead in or promotion for the summer Chicagos.

mj2-15:07

But as we got into it, I think what's happened is that what we want to do is present the speakers on their own merits for all of those thought. So some of you've probably seen the flyers. We've got several thousand here in the room, which we going to distribute later. But we're giving talks in Akron and Cleveland, two talks in Cleveland on the east and west side, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Baltimore, and Washington DC And we're going to have, most of the speakers are going to be giving two talks. They won't all be one speaker in a city. They're going to be ing Dave Gold, Frank Mascara, and Jake.

mj2-15:58

And what we want to do and what we have done, the way it's presented in this flyer is to present these speakers as experts in a certain field. And I think you'll get that impression from reading the choir's been prepared. We tried to, after talking to the guys that he's volunteered to speak, their subject matter is geared towards what we consider to be their particular experience and expertise and knowledge in a certain field. And each one of 'em comes in from a slightly different angle. But at the same time we're hoping that there's going to be a common theme to all of these. And of course all of 'em are also going to be tied into the common theme or the summer

Speaker 2

mj2-16:53

End of tape. Well, I think maybe it'd be good if each one of the speakers just said a word too about what their talks are going to be about, where they're speaking and what their talks can be about. Just the

Speaker 1

mj2-17:09

Thought we saw.

Speaker 2

mj2-17:20

So Jake, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, where you were born, what you're talking about,

Speaker 1

mj2-17:27

Where you're talking.

Speaker 3

mj2-17:36

Okay though. Alright. You're talking to

Speaker 4

mj2-17:53

Talking in Canton, in Akron in, and basically my talk's going to start out with a critique of psychology. Go through the gross psychological society working into men and women's psychology and plus mix a postulates about what we call conservation therapy. And they both worked from men's brains, different evidence, met into some things on brain research, then into what is mine? What's the connection between mine and in brain, what's the different theories on that? And from there I'm going to a perception and what you see out there is actually in your head. It's not actually out there. Then going to paradigms create how you create your reality from your concept structures. And we try to work into a theory of psych phenomenon, like from working from how you manipulate the paradigm or your concept structures and ties in with phenomenon. Like a lot of area. Get all

Speaker 2

mj2-19:28

That from three. I told him about he has to cut it for two hours of one hour.

Speaker 4

mj2-19:43

I only had 15 minutes for the talking

Speaker 2

mj2-19:50

It up for question. We're okay. Excuse me, is this she me? Questions, other questions and answers afterwards. Open it up. Yeah, we're going to get back. That's a

Speaker 1

mj2-20:02

Second half of our program here. But the one thing that course we're going to do is be selling tickets in the summer. These lectures, the whole program has to be designed, so that will not be important. We'll discuss the techniques of that later. I'm speaking on the possibility of men's duplicating mental processes using computers. It's a field now, it's called artificial intelligence. And basically it's the question of whether or not men can duplicate the mental processes using hardware, electronics and whatnot. And basically what the presentation will be about are different scientists, the current level of investigation and different theories they have on how the brain works and how they're about to try to duplicate that using electronics. There's a lot of very strange theories and a lot of them come up with conclusions. They all seem to think that they haven't reached any limited, but they always have a view of the human mind, which is so transcendental that it seems almost impossible for them to be able to with it. The idea that the human mind is able to get an overview of itself, whereas a computer can never see an overview of itself, can never build a different perspective.

mj2-21:39

Just one. The idea that there's some anterior observer, several writers have alluded to this, so many different varying words that are very, very similar to the psychology of the observer. Just uncanny some of the similarities and yet they never really say as to how they're going to duplicate that. And that'll lead into the what I.

=== File mj3 ===
Time: 21:34

Speaker 1

mj3-00:04

Necessity for a science that's based on experience or what I call subjective science and this as opposed to the current objective sciences scientists tend to be very objective and very impartial investigations, but when you really get into investigating how the mind works and being able

Speaker 2

mj3-00:27

To pigeon all the different types of experiences, you really find out that objective science is totally hopeless as that. Only $2, no. How will this time direct mind theme in the whole summer? The thing that ties it in is this idea of experience that the only thing that anybody knows for sure, the only thing that you're certain of is your experiences

Speaker 3

mj3-01:07

And yet science can cope with that and when you talk about a mind or somebody experiencing what is this, how do you duplicate this process of experiencing

Speaker 2

mj3-01:18

And the experiences aren't really what I'm saying. The only thing that you can really face any kind of anything on that is basically experience. Experience what comes, what you perceive or what you think. Alright guys, you're right there. The qualification of it something that first 10, that initial experience, it's totally undefinable in terms of science. How do you duplicate that electronically but then who is experiencing that process of experience know itself anyways, it'll only be $2. There's the real Bill King.

Speaker 3

mj3-02:35

We were just going through and having the speakers to give us a little bit of idea about where they're going to be talking and what they're going to be talking about. So it's your turn.

Speaker 2

mj3-02:46

Want me tell you about the three stitches before I Give me a little time. I appreciate it. How about you?

Speaker 3

mj3-03:03

Okay, I'll tell you what I'm going to be talking about while with these guys group, I'm talking in Baltimore and DC in a couple of weeks and my talk's going to be probably the least esoteric and it's direction and then it's going to talking about success and the way to obtain success to different principles of success and the basic theme's going to be that in order to be successful you have to be successful on every level of life. You can't just be successful in your career and your family or even in your philosophic work. You have that direction but you have to tackle everything the same way and using the same principles and I'm going to present the direct line sciences of the system that has these principles to show how they work for us on a mundane level, on a physical level as far as how we've been able to be successful in our business and then also tie some of the different incidents that have happened in the group and Mr. Rose and spice it up. A lot of penitentiary. Dave's going to have our

Speaker 2

mj3-04:13

Bank statements on transparency put on overhead projector every month making one more money. I get credit this out,

Speaker 3

mj3-04:43

But how this is going to tie in a direct mind is it is going to be that some people

Speaker 2

mj3-04:51

Here talking around the group, they'll mention how this direct mind necessarily corresponds to success and I've even heard some people say possibly see this as being you that you could use direct mind as a way of being successful. How would you answer that if somebody says,

Speaker 3

mj3-05:12

Is this thing supposed to be spiritual or is it good for your business? Well, it depends. The basic theme's going to be that regardless of what you want to succeed on, this is the most tedious way to do it. If you want to make money, you can't do it with your inte alone. You're going to have to find certain principles where you can tap into something higher because if you're going to be successful and overcome everything that's going, that's going to present all the obstacles, you're going to present it to you. You're going to have to tap on more than just your rental, just more than you enter power. Even in the business world, you're going

Speaker 2

mj3-05:43

To have to have a computer that increasing numbers. Millions of practice goes through everyday life.

mj3-05:59

There's millions of factors you can't logically. There was a guy who had an down in Texas and 600 and these were people coming in to learn how to sell pots and pay and I know one guy, they interviewed one of these guys taking this before and he hugged me guy and he said, what do you think of this guy? He said, most important guy next to Jesus Christ, that's word for you. Of course he was acting and all that, but this guy, his idea was that you accept God principle or something and it keeps you on a certain course of people know what to expect out of you. You're not going to steal from them. You're not out there to steal. You're out there to produce a service and you hold your head a certain way and eventually the public gets the idea that you're dead serious.

mj3-07:12

You're going to serve, give them something money. I presume that's part of the angle. They likewise think maybe a magic comes down. I thought that was very important because it was the first time I ever heard that it wasn't a denominational talk. This guy wasn't any religions like alcoholics anonymous, spiritual savior to be from alcohol and it works. This is statistic drunk that get away from it. People who went Jesus pledge somehow I think of course what interferes with a lot of people in your businesses and whenever you make up your mind that your ego to something else, then ego. Egoism is offensive. Is it like displacing your ego on another figure like onto a Christ or something? It's dedication. Yeah.

mj3-08:43

You have to be within yourself that your attitude. You never tell them they weren't fucking tell people that they would prove it. They were, they were hundred and then things started to happen to them and wasn't as mysterious as you think. People look you over on the door, they look you over. If you've lar the best you can help them out, help yourself out. That's hard. I think it's just an attitude that rubs off on the public and it has to be real. It can't be something you're going to put on, but I think in those, when you let yourself down to any frame of mind and don't try to shift from the coming person to the honest person and back to the guy that's going to his through next thing going to be aian, you're not going to be anybody. You're going to be going to be flopping around between careers and Johnson and people like that right now they're not moving.

mj3-10:18

They have too many objectives, too many objectives all works but yet their objectives are scattered. You can have many objectives. They all, they no conflict with each other. Your spiritual search don't conflict with your business. It'll help your business, but you have set a priority and that was the name of the game that this guy put across. This was your priority that you had more or less a and you said that would help clean the cell and help them get what? These guys didn't mind giving the 600 parts. They walked out, they were, see I said this years ago, this is a new psychologist. All it means is his words, the proper language. He told that guy put it across and he put it across just the salesman. I believe the psychologist on have psychologist don't have this message.

mj3-11:32

This s when he says that, well how this would tie into use his mental power that he had pick up things. He said, I thought it was kind of outrageous maybe in my point of view, but maybe it isn't. He said even people that have avoid accidents because that was like sort of what said he said that what keeps a guy, why does a guy that is supposed to go on an airplane all of a sudden turn around before he gets on to walk back out and in the airplane crashes. He says, what is it about that guy? How does this happen? Bomb. No, he says that's an ability sensitivity or you want to call it direct mind or intuition, but he's able to pick things up and it just maybe on a business level too, if you have the right kind of mind, you could see where I got in. I

Speaker 3

mj3-12:51

Sometimes your best friends,

Speaker 2

mj3-12:59

Sometimes you can sit Lebanese, Greek, Greek. You can sense things that are going to happen to you. To me, I thought that was kind was a brash statement. He was sort of condemning all people to get into accidents or do things wrong because they don't have the proper mental perception. They don't have this feeling that he's talking about that they pick things up. You think he was condemning? I got the feeling that wasn't condemning him. He just saying that that's a fact, but we have all this information's available.

Speaker 1

mj3-13:49

I got the feeling that he wanted to sort of hit, drop the hint that he wanted to save mankind by giving him insights or teaching him to have that direct mind ability so that it could avoid accidents, avoid wars. I was wondering what was his thinking

Speaker 2

mj3-14:13

About? He thinks everybody has that power. Just everybody could see a bad business deal or see a proper move in their life. If they had, they could learn to listen to their feelings. You wouldn't avoid things he tell you that who? Sed? No. Well that's just a book I read. I don't think he was selling too much anything. I seemed like a pretty sincere person. This conviction. Talk about what you're going to talk about.

Speaker 3

mj3-15:11

Just to sum up something, I think the main thing is you got to practice between us and you have to find a word for it. A language for it. Whether it's going to be on the mundane level. Well you see the between. This is something that comes after this is what you

Speaker 2

mj3-15:26

Recognize actually there's a certain way of light that impairs the person. In other words, body chemistry, intuition, we were talking about this earlier, formed in and recently it's only found in the brain tissue itself in the membrane and this I think just the discovery in the last decades. Decades that it's the foundation and basis of I people for 10,000 years that they protected for magical rights. Also education and getting certain old athletes. There's a lot of things that can be, this entails people want, the thing is they don't want to respond. What I consider the dream that they into into a certain dream of enjoyment making come true. They make themselves come apart, eventually fertilize soil to make a mark. Everybody's going to fertilize soil. Make a, before you fertilize the soil most out of your energy with the use, the amount of scar.

mj3-17:27

This is the point. It's funny they said about boxers just this about a month ago that they talked about the fact that they used to conserve. They didn't sleep with their wives or the guys that were married sleep with their wives while they were training back now. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. This is the new age I predicted 10 years ago. There's only going to be a handful of people in this country. It's going to survive the sanctification of perversion, sanctification of all sexuality, any sort and the thing is everybody's, everybody else can treat the other public sweet and the result is this. The younger generation, one time certain religious that's going the board does all the nuns and priests, not all, but so it discoveries I think are coming in a good time. I know now that there's no athletes. You never hear of them an being retraining himself. They're coming out with evidence. You produce evidence on either side. You can always bring out an argument. Here's one guy that you can stimulate yourself, stimulate themselves out. The whole system was that, oh, that was Jack or that they asked him about that

Speaker 1

mj3-19:47

Said when he went in, he just went nuts.

Speaker 2

mj3-19:58

Was that the guy the girl was dating on? He was real jealous and she wasn't having sex with her and he was always, remember I saw that movie. I thought what they were trying to portray in at least movie was that he was really jealous because he was settled. You get that? I didn't see the movie. I just heard read about it. He was, yeah, and he said that it seemed like that's what they were doing or Pok being it. Well, anyhow, this was again, I guess from beginning of time of reason the walls seems maybe that people were more intuitive or had more of this knowledge about what you're talking about years ago where before the technologies.

=== File mj4 ===
Time: 16:11

Speaker 1

mj4-00:07

Reason the walls, it seems maybe that people were more intuitive or had more of this knowledge, but we're talking about years ago maybe where before the high technologies and what's happened is you've got a lot of high technology now and people are engrossed 16 hours a day. We got all kinds of damn gimmicks, but you still work 16 hours a day and the bureaucratic mess is putting, it's good so that you've got to work about 30 days out the month or maybe more the cop on the corner time you, he must to your car away or he wants to find you to cross the line. See, everybody's out to grab the working man. You hear this in Congress today, the Democrat, the house, he wants to bring out taxes but there's no they know at the same time the millionaires, the big corporations, those people are being subsidized to pay taxes. They are getting subsidies. We're buying people. We we're bribing people, south Central America, but all the time as a little guy is going to be kept so damn can't.

mj4-01:31

Your only hope is become a millionaire. You a millionaire era. You're on your way to becoming a aire. So the most visible, I often thought this, jeez, these Rockefellers and people in a wonderful position just into their library and read those books, relax and have some account that take care of their business. You think they'd do it? Hell no. You see how they go, the guy that supposedly was the richest man in the world or ask him says, how much money do you have to make after he's made so much? Just a little more, just a little more left.

mj4-02:30

It's always just a little more. They have a wonderful opportunity and also to do exactly what they want do and educate their children. They do chemistry, come into the basement, some chemistry, do experiments, anything they wish they're out trying new sexual perversions or three Jack Kennedy, 1500 in the White House. There ain't nothing wrong with him getting killed. He him happy so much. The whole thing is I can, the mistake that I made in most of direct approach, nobody in a lecture wants to be told they three chickens and one the public generally likes to these people, especially on the west coast, they don't say anything. They don't basically say anything.

mj4-05:12

He never opposed anything, anything. A and all these people who are making millions on our so-called adults, they're, whenever you put you touch sensitive, I start to, they'll sit there and they not pay any intention. Oh, once they'll catch it, understanding wider, see look desperate way out. They jump up and then make it out the door because this is no good to have to along these you don't STAs. I believe that these correlations, I'm talking about all sorts of on businesses possible. Once I get more, I find out that it's the ed just like you up and talk about S you can't talk about yourself and everybody in the group could be talking about themselves to a certain degree too much about themselves.

mj4-08:09

He was, people will listen to that. He hadn't the real rock. He was fairly un when was four up beyond doing public speaking. Hold them and then you're dealing. Then the next time you get back you'll come to here. You get then another little firecracker. You can't give revelation but I think you can is put together to solve. It's a combination of, I watched this guy on tv, his presentation in, he was an emotional speaker. This somehow don't anybody, it's a funny thing you'd to church every one to church. Church and you know what they do in there? They get up father, but he could use those 50 words backwards and pull it upside down inter arms around. He was very em.

mj4-10:50

He gave a bible verse out, tie, repeat himself 10 times, repeat the same phrase, shouting the thing was held the attention with that shena and he was holding the attention and then the I through ahead. Maybe that sounds reasonable, but you start to become involved in the state of mind. Your state of mind is to merge with and guy seems sincere, absurd, but they don't say anything. It isn't what they say and that is it's all what they project by virtue of a great, you might say hypnotic flurry, waving the arms, jumping up and down and saying emotional things about Jesus and terrible things.

mj4-12:13

But I think the most effective thing is there's a lot of literature. You guys are not picking it up. This is thing, there's a lot of literature on what we're talking about and I am real with some of these. I never C brain ries. It has a lot of this stuff is validating intuition. Thousands of thousands of years of people philoso. This is validating their lifestyle and their power to produce miracles, power to do certain things. You see, it's limited. It's limited. All this energy in the direction of, I don't think that this is absolutely necessary. Of course, I think one thing more important, another person project in the mind of transmission, only one do prophecy and they just sit, look into the space time continuum and give you reading.

mj4-13:35

But again, I don't see quite the need. If your mind should function in any direction, anything you should do. In other words, when you read a book you should be able to see and about going down the desert, they down the there they would walk and look at these old statues and try to visualize what happened there type of people lived there and what they, and of course whoever was their teacher was trying to call forth their intuition with that proper intuition. They have a direct mind of view of what was going on. Piece the culture. This is one statue that can reproduce the whole picture culture. Well that's does that. I've seen people do this Inva, Ohio Road to Pittsburgh. I worked in a roadhouse as Taver steak house and there was an nobody, he'd a break. He told me he had the ability to amazing. He said, well, I demonstration, so I gave him a ball point back in the.

=== File mj5 ===
Time: 30:26

Speaker 1

mj5-00:04

It's because they don't really have a perfect, they got it perfect to say no, but the person thinks, well I've got a feeling I join the marine. My intuition is that I'll be successful. Or maybe some idea glamor, some uniform or whatever, but these intuitions may be, I big part of it are subject to anger. The only deal for instance, I know that lies about their husband. They almost, this is tied talk about, it's tied to some mundane ego but yet it works out tremendous anxiety. That tremendous anxiety sometimes brings about, it does experience too, which will bring you to mind but that's only after this age are gone. The ESP is something that you can practice that only it'll be limited to some extent. It's a higher mind type of operation. It's tele, it's like a mentality to table is it looks like direct mind but they discovered its shape even by using a simple piece of cardboard like this and put it under the table with different places.

mj5-02:01

The table dropped a whole bunch of series found out exactly which an angle went up under the very center of the table inte intelligence to pick the very center of that table to lift straight up in the air. Now that's physical but somebody think that's strict. Fine. There are a lot of things that people can do. There's an energy that you can heal people. Here's the difference. I maintain that Christ heal people with physical energy. That's called actually project sympathy and desire. A nurse could work in the hospital. Nurses are told don't be sympathy towards your patients. You get that's a transfer of energy, so that's healing. That means direct. My healing has no loss of energy and I mentioned this in one of several of my lectures about talking to a fellow up in about and Ambrose out

Speaker 2

mj5-03:23

Dead

Speaker 1

mj5-03:32

Guy and I said I got a feeling that they use some type of healing, which a conventional that you see where people lighting their hands on other people and taking their, didn't know anything about, he'd run a old machine shop there, he read too many books. Absolutely, but you have to be able to somehow tap that. You have to be able to somehow use it. Now both words are bad. You don't use, it's like saying that you would use the ocean to prop a boat.

Speaker 2

mj5-04:35

The ocean going to stay right where it's at car because the boat went

Speaker 1

mj5-04:46

Sail. In other words, the direct mind when it's working is a effortless thing. It corresponds to an old istic law. I understand. I used to put books imagination to what you want. It must not be

Speaker 2

mj5-05:56

The direct line, just that's what happens because a person has ability to reach the higher awareness to the illusion or something doesn't mean that he can affect direct mind. Right. He's not charge anything. He's not,

Speaker 1

mj5-06:16

You're still a unit that help but you're able, like I said, the of out here generations of the trees out and plant, drain and change the field occurrence of the field because there's a limit to what they're allowed to do in a lifetime. Many, there's a limit but they try to go beyond that. It's the story of the old drop dead flower. Try to push beyond it. You drop dead and the same way it's the actual use of it. It's not more than, like I said, a demonstration to perhaps encourage somebody else to their entire mind. This is the most valuable part. It's certainly commodity.

Speaker 2

mj5-07:27

The only value human life people on the ladder. The ladder. This

Speaker 1

mj5-07:34

Is a law. It isn't that there's a value. It's like a reciprocating, right? Right. It's 10 million mines in the ocean around go nowhere. My wife 10 million mice. The mice consolidate and say here's how we can protect ourselves from the cap until we find out what the hell we are. Then 10 out of 10 billion survive who they're, that's basically,

Speaker 3

mj5-09:06

Would you consider it as

Speaker 1

mj5-09:08

Being technique? Oh yeah. The way you hold your head, you your head. It's not too complex. You

Speaker 2

mj5-09:32

Learn how to do it. It seems that you're going to develop a technique to will something and then forget it. If you bring it into being, that's going to make you

Speaker 1

mj5-09:51

Because as soon as you paused anything, you immediately negated. You linger with that negation. In other words, you say I want this and you want it intensely. I want them immediately used believe in the opposite. You create law. A lot of forces are accept action with repetitious hunger. Create the so have.

mj5-10:30

That's what we talking about between a way that you have to hold your, you say between what don't whats I think you understand what I'm saying. To give you an example, best way I can tell you is to give you an example. The first time that happened wife, I was sitting in a put hand on her head. Head. So I went over and I didn't even believe it was the idea. I thought when I went over put my head had impulse pull, the headache happened. Since then I've been doing, I thought you were of the, you say you put your hand on her. Yeah, I've been doing that lately. Headaches, stomach muscle and my hands get put my mind in the state of deep meditation

Speaker 2

mj5-12:33

That

Speaker 1

mj5-12:39

It surprised me though. I had somebody here day had a migraine headache and they didn't believe it. Migraine. Yeah. Well of course right now, see right now today I'm my bio rhythm way down, down intellectual low. Yeah, I remember you telling me about that before I, what you telling me about before put they say the hands get like what I do, I concentrate. It's the same state you reach when you go real deep beyond the mind and the body state of just, it's the same state. Only year 20 truth of the matter is, but there seems to be an energy there that like tuned into the universal mind or the universal force or whatever that pervades everything within and without, well that's the, I think what truth did you as a result of an impulse and that's exactly what I did. I mean I had no logical reason. I took home training for, I didn't believe it. I thought it was a bunch of nonsense. It just happened but it happened so many times, so many people here lately that I noted other people that this one person who I say came with the migraine and just like that and an interesting thing was with this young girl that rubbing her back out.

mj5-14:33

I had a chiropractor I used to adjust his back just anyway, her back is so messed up. I put my hands on her before I out and you got to do it with your fingers see and I would put my hands down the spine and process to see where the distort adjust vertical the chiropractor do. But I just was about ready to give up, said all, no, I knew it was going to take a tremendous amount of to get all that out, I had to really rub it and everything so I just put my hands on there and concentrated and put my mind at stake and they heated. UPT was all loose, all spasm.

Speaker 2

mj5-15:47

Looks like it's photography

Speaker 1

mj5-15:54

So much. We don't know. I think it right inside that box on the left, just reach down and get a couple of, how about you giving us what

Speaker 3

mj5-16:52

I have the everything attunement, the manifested mind in the development of metal powers mine and also the transmission. The fact the direct mine also being the directing mind, transmitting mine of getting scenery and changing the projectors manifest mind as far as the development, I have development being attunement with the manifested mind and type of light most conducive to developing, which in turn I, you have to have tremendous effort along with you have to have some way that you can push your limits and also the removal. What was your first definition? I couldn't hear it too much. The attunement with that which is projecting attunement, that which is project all projection. There was a question I was going to throw out. It came up when we were discussing this and this people trying to figure out, I think there's a lot of people in group about it. That's how this fits in with, I get some ideas about how this fits in with the rest of the teaching. How this fits in with the system, with the psychology observer. Whether this is something that is just totally new or whether this is something that

Speaker 1

mj5-18:41

One not only in terms of different word definition but more or less demonstrate. In other words, how do you demonstrate other people's writing? Baker is the work of the manifest. That's the basis of Christian science. The ability to change this dimension, which is not too real about mind power and she's not talking about the relative talking about changing. Actually changing is the same

Speaker 4

mj5-20:07

Position. I dunno if you not, I was reading something about him recently. His idea was trick use the people he was trying to heal. Anyway, his argument one that God was all perfect, therefore everything he created was perfect. Therefore illness is imaginary, imaginary projection of your imperfect mind. And if he was dealing with the above people that believed in the perfection of God, the logic of that would cause them their mind to maybe go into a between where they would it wasn't real.

Speaker 1

mj5-20:47

The difficulty is that that is he, while let's say biasly leading them, he's leading them with a lie and the result is that those people can never really know what happens. It may accidentally as a result of, but first number one is God remains un defined and the undefined God gets blame for everything that happens now. It isn't the imagination of people. This projection, this plea, that show is as real as everything you'll know until you know something better and after you know something better, after you're dead or after you look transcendent and look back, this is still real. This is still very real. This is real as a picture.

Speaker 2

mj5-21:50

Dimens,

Speaker 1

mj5-21:56

No your sympathies. When you die and you have any consciousness of your relatives, these relatives, seemingly I will still be the focus of your attention. I dunno when that would ever come about.

Speaker 2

mj5-22:32

The fact

Speaker 4

mj5-22:32

That an individual does not know who he is, does not have understanding of his own awareness and he attaches the people around him and his relatives and the loved ones and the people that he is living with, he attaches himself to those people. That means that, yeah, his whole life is not one of defining himself but more of being aware of other people. So when those other people are taken from him, he's

Speaker 1

mj5-23:11

Left with nothing. Even though those people become very deliberate from George Blazer said, we're all this together. In other words, we all believe all that you're supposed to go out and make a nickel for. We all believe not all this. There's a whole lot of stuff. We all believe that the sky is there and the sun rises and sexes and because of this you can't take one person by healing, by saying the true imagination causing this. The only thing qui could say in all honesty is God's imagination. He didn't say

Speaker 4

mj5-24:10

Imagination caused it. He didn't know what caused it.

Speaker 1

mj5-24:17

The blame is placed the upon. This is the thing. Warn Earhart, the individual. Scientology claims the individual. Christianity claims the individual. You're a sinner. Krishna's the individual. To me, this is nonsense. We we're all stuck with the same paradigm. Paradigm. Now you can't. You are one person. What I said by telling them, the guy that he is came back. This is not telling the truth, the reason we're not very popular because we don't have any collective. And of course that's the only reason you guys years. Other words, you can't trade one another, not police can't by God. I no consciousness. If you're not, you want to use the word I don't use it, but I think this is the thing that I don't know, even though I had this experience, what the hell is God going down here? Solution.

Speaker 4

mj5-26:04

In other words, why project somebody

Speaker 1

mj5-26:06

Down here for discover really millions, millions of peoples so struggle to find your way back to simplicity, complexity, simplicity.

Speaker 2

mj5-26:23

Wonder.

Speaker 1

mj5-26:29

Yeah,

mj5-26:39

Well I think it's even conceivable. I wouldn't want translation the way I was translated. And so they created a trough of their place. Creation, speed, tr of their, in other words, dichotomized themselves. Dicho. Again, when you transcend this dimension and you go beyond the unmanifest, the pure absolute reality, you may not be absolute reality as much as traveling there sort of naked about the body, the absolute use. You could be traveling there without it being contact with everything wasn't absolutely nothing. Everything I see I from that. In other words, absolute can be right, right. That's what I, all you can do is all you can do is be prepared. That's all that theory about we're entering this aquar hundred.

mj5-28:58

We have to go into the mental age and golden age and it's repeating itself from the time of land. Supposed to enter the golden age for another 7,000 years and a man is just coming out of the dark age. So every time there seemed to be certain evolved people that had Christ conquer like Christ or Buddha, but now it seems like these things are becoming more widespread, this universal forces universal mind population. But I do say that I think society things are happening today. A lot of this stuff on the mark. I guess nothing but hypnosis. They were happening. We had wave of this before all. Yeah, there were just fewer.

=== File mj6 ===
Time: 30:16

Speaker 1

mj6-00:03

Right. The people

Speaker 2

mj6-00:04

That didn't let it out, I don't quite think the opposite are worse, better, more absolute lying alongside all this knowledge. Well, what's the great friend epitomized? Billy Graham gets up there, wants us to do this. What the hell? Would he know what he, he's talking about a first being that talked to him. I He's liar. Living liar. He did know I'd like to some details I like produce some details. He had a conversation with God. What say did he talk about the stock market or so astute, God's making mistake. He made a mistake back here about 10, 20 years ago. We got the atomic bomb. He was asleep while was making the bomb. It ire as hell guys that are so the word God. Yeah. All luck. Lot of people understand affirmative man wanted so many a fathers, so many Hail Marys. He wanted to sure a way to heaven but there's a lot of people that couldn't comprehend anything. Even different religions like Hinduism always had different things for different people. They had B yoga like the prisons used for Catholic devotion and they had what? Mosha was a higher type of yoga similar to zen or satori or the Buddhists had, there was different things for different people. Some people

mj6-02:32

Today says we were put here just like we put in jail and all efforts are made as soon as you come up with a religion, the truth of an honest person, Christ is an honest man. As soon as he dies You mean you don't think get beyond the human condition of grief and possibility and selfishness. Well yeah. We're entering now period of like Orwell's 19 80, 84 of player Ana by Kurt. I mean the whole system seems like the government's taken over mine. It's government. It's just that every time there's a mass movement knows another old thing.

mj6-03:35

Can't say there's only so many allowed on the earth that you got to speak out. Talking about climate, you get any great crusade example of a whole group of people that once they showed that they had a real power. People are scared of that. Right? Theism. The massacre mysticism is the system where people get together who one thing they have in common is that they just can't seem to get along with the overall society. George. They can or can. They're outmaneuvering. You got somebody we're hanging by springs and somebody's pulling the we're so they have more democratic system where there's more a system out there is all power relationship democratic system. I mean here you have more democratic than

Speaker 1

mj6-04:57

That poem that you wrote in the beginning of the book Psychology.

Speaker 2

mj6-05:06

Yeah. I thought

mj6-05:15

Yeah, we cannot, you're dealing with a mathematical problem that's reason you have to have a direct mind. Right. There must be people that are spiritually by the price that talk to ordinary people have ability to get in and beyond these other dimensions. Nobody can understand that they were at that level too. It's not really saying anything. I'm saying that there must be something beyond something we highly evolved spirits around wouldn't even discuss it with unless there were other people at their level. It must go on and on and on and on. That's what I'm saying. I agree. You go way down to the ignorance. We're grateful that completely they didn't think that they're thinking is them and they're doing and then you have the person questions. Well maybe there's something beyond the thinking. It just goes on endlessly and endlessly on and on and on and we just don't, tires start. It gets tires before it's too far to go get a bottle of whiskey and

Speaker 3

mj6-07:17

You were talking about the higher mind and the idea of healing people and people try to get psychiatric help. They can't really be helped because what they're trying, the way I see it is if the psychiatrist or psychologist doesn't recognize the possibility of a higher mind or another observation state, they're treating something that a person doesn't really like. You say there's no such thing as a mental illness. That's the date. Rather than getting behind it using re They can't get beyond the reflexes. Yeah, right Limits.

Speaker 2

mj6-07:55

That's all they see. A declaration almost collectively made a declaration today has to agree with that declaration that it's a physical brain in the sealable. A physical mind in a sealable with physical drugs. That's it. And I say that isn't that only up the you more up more has state of mind. All it does is it harnesses the symptoms that are the guys up you hitting with the drug and it knock him down. What happened to me? You get him down. What effect did that have on his long range? Right, right, right. Get him him off the street and then if you're lucky him a little bit to get him back to taxes,

Speaker 1

mj6-08:54

You probably something similar to that. If you were in an isolated condition, you fall over in the middle of a or something carted you off and what about this one line, the talk about, is that the same direct line? No,

Speaker 2

mj6-09:40

No.

mj6-09:43

Basically it depends on, you have to ask two possibilities. One of 'em is being one but I think he's talking about cutting out, being one with your inner self or no ego. No ego. This is the thing that always me about of all these egos, all these eyes perform a more dynamic and powerful what animals, good psychologist, but I definition of to be one you have to be minus everything, not unify all those personalities. You have to subtract everything but we observe personality best described what it's not correct. We do that. Proposed definitions of what it's not. They never tell you what it's, but still there's conscious. Even when you go within to state beyond the body and the mind still deep, there's still a consciousness of certain awareness. Oh sure, sure. But there's also states beyond that. The reason you have hope is because certain people have been surrounded dead at were brought back and they had a memory of things that happened dead. You also have people that were truly out technically unconscious information while they babbled, which was it's, I would think that if a person did travel this road, the only thing you could do would be bow his head and be aware of what I mean is to be aware of, doesn't matter what you do, you could be on karma.

mj6-12:22

Doesn't matter what you do, what you don't do. Absolutely t peace of mind to be trouble to be concerned. What happens got to come out in the world. Yeah. Reject. You can reject the world same time. Live in it if you want. Go by and it'll go by quickly. Not the has everybody there's, there's always a hangup for something that's got way back, like I said, even have experience die alive to somebody. I think at that level there's certain things like passion and so forth where you, I don't mean being gift. Buddhism amazing.

Speaker 1

mj6-14:19

I got my grandfather about 95 told me don't take anything. I dunno if that's good for him to say. He must have been a smart,

Speaker 2

mj6-14:37

He was very smart. I see guy that's like a guy at 65

Speaker 1

mj6-15:10

Watching you. That's better.

Speaker 2

mj6-15:29

I am trying to be attached dec that's they've giving me hell Lately I've been kind of laying around lazy, working properly. It's like action and inaction

Speaker 1

mj6-16:25

Come and go. I hate to even

Speaker 3

mj6-16:30

I on like that because I don't usually talk that way. Humor, you're

Speaker 2

mj6-16:36

Out with a bunch of men. Their wive, they're dawning the husband like a, you ever hear of human liberation? That's where it's feminist because of the

Speaker 3

mj6-17:03

Sexist work. Whenever some woman says to me, I'm a feminist, then I say to her, but you're a sexist

Speaker 1

mj6-17:41

But why should you get through it? I mean look at all the

Speaker 2

mj6-17:44

Reinforcement you

Speaker 1

mj6-18:51

Okay? Direct mind a higher element being which is beyond the limitations attempt to beyond it while beyond thought. Direct mind experiences can occur as a result of test, so direct mind science should include the study of thought and such perception of emotions which can initiate direct mind experiences, direct mind the study that it should have as it center. However persons who are aware of direct mind, spiritual center to individual.

Speaker 2

mj6-19:45

One thing I wanted to mention you define, you're going to be the definitions given court. In other words, somebody says, do you know what does the guy say this stuff? This stuff isn't here because I'm here. There's not many thousands of incidents of direct mind, but this is

mj6-21:02

What we have to point to. Not particular. Particular. Of course if you want to a defamation, yeah. I'd say it's alright to say hey, pick up the contrast of illusion. Pick up the S book. Pick up psychology, but there's other books. The thing is somebody comes along and says, Hey, what do experience it for yourself more or less. Remove that whole thing until it is self, you don't care either have either experienced it or it's been pretty much laying down mathematical track. Okay, so what happens is what are we after the fact that somebody moves salt pepper and we know why. Okay, we're after the fact that somebody is healing somebody and we want to know why and are these common? Are there common denominators behind all these things and are we taking, is human waste taking the property approach to these things? Is there a mind?

mj6-22:45

You have to, all of this stuff has to come very carefully present a tremendous amount of phenomena with no explanation plausible except that you understand what I'm saying. In other words, it has to come out from the very basic beginning of, hey, my grandmother says my grandmother was able to remove wars. How did she remove wars? I'm not say my grand, somebody grand or the guy across the street did this. They did once, twice, twice. What happened? How did do this? We get out, were able to do strange and you go from there. You start to pile this up. You just can't say that this mind is an inferior mind. You can, but you're going to have to belabor your audience in things like corn press.

mj6-24:03

You're going to have to take contrast of and analyze and discuss it whether it can be this believable, whether it's worth or not, and Bob s book on the wisdom of the ole these things, Mary Baker, Eddie, this what happens here. If something results from, there must have been something result science practitioners now nothing. The movement would be dead. Something happens and then you get into these other things where footprint in the ceiling or something upside down. Chapel. Chapel, nobody's making any money off of it. Colon dead, all sorts of stuff. That sense the man and the steel mill or the coal mine or the farm. You can talk to him and this is what you have to do. You have to talk to him On his basis. On his basis.

mj6-25:56

Columbus Allice lived down Charleston. He told a whole valley of people some one thing, some another and of course I was amazed. It goes back to yes, you mean this place exists, this fiction book talking. No, it's not a fiction book. Everything in it, everything in, check it out, no moved over just I don't want to stop you in the, I don't doubt still there, but check it out. One of the incidents that nice guy on the other hand was more muscular was if you pick up those names, those names or not, you have to plug what kind of did they in? Nothing real sensational, but they certain people had the ability to cause things to happen. They saw entities, group family, group family, some people here and there. He was kind surprised when he got outside there, so everybody, electricity, they work outside.

=== File mj7 ===
Time: 18:33

Speaker 1

mj7-00:23

In a car, read a book while you went or meditate.

Speaker 2

mj7-00:44

It seems like in the past though, people were always working to just survive. If you had a wagon, had to have some way of feeding a horse and taking care of the animal, it's almost his whole life would be taken up doing the mundane things. But today it's not any better because you don't work all the time to make money to put food on your table, pay the taxes. I think the biggest drain on people's awareness is all the divergent television. That's what I'm

Speaker 1

mj7-01:24

Saying. Sports part Pittsburgh that cost a certain cost. Depreciation run over bucks. Freedom. If you don't trade it in every four years, you'll under repair. You make one trip to Pittsburgh life. What I'm talking about is personal experience. I can remember we lived right there where we lived down and we used to have visitors in the street and they put them all up for the night once a year family problem. But they had time to do that. There was no draw. Hard time passed the tide. The woman of the house had a piano. Piano was of the piano. The piano. But what I'm saying is those people lot the horses and sew stuff and still have more time. The world

Speaker 3

mj7-03:17

Village, he went back to city, he went down to the local temple. Two years old people. So semi time around enough to the same way. Korea had a

Speaker 1

mj7-03:44

Tremendous information. Everybody if person write poetry, he was respect came out Korea

Speaker 3

mj7-04:01

S about it or whoever hears of a modern Japanese farmer, traditional country between correspond to,

Speaker 1

mj7-04:38

I could see the re reflection of because they this house we moved here. No, I think it used to be you had a desert, old men desert to against the long

mj7-05:46

Use. The old, including the old time religion in back then more people believed in traditional religion. A lot of that stuff was being challenged. Maybe there's some value in, I think there were challenges going against conformity to when I was a kid, I didn't see how question church or Oh yeah, you're talking about your family and my family. Other people did. This guy Martin Luther did this guy. They were knew. See that's what I always thought. The fact that old days early Christians were more quiet. But see, today you have all these writings that you have. You have all stuff back writing. Nothing was written before. 1500. Don't George, any that you make ride to escape, lead your own manufacturing of greater obstacles than that's what I think will happen Greater. Yeah. What you're doing, what we're trying to do, we're trying to escape. We're trying to pause five times technology, have

mj7-07:35

Books, computers, instantaneous information, computer, instantaneous information from all over the world by television all over the world. Yet we are getting more, not more materialistic. We're not even good animals. Average American. Somebody said that one out of seven people in this country. What One in five? That's supposedly it's one in five in the adult population. Stay I minutes. The same. One is two is a lot of goodness. I stopped buying it before her. This friend of mine lives, lives San Francisco. He's a female friend who she found out about her research started and I read an article in being spread by life in the communities where there are a lot of gay people.

mj7-10:56

All these weird new bacterial virus intestines, like these fatal diseases that mimic symptoms. Well here's what happens. Some of these men have mixed anal and oral and all kind of sex putting things where basically it's like how you e coli, that's for bacteria to get married to somebody claiming you. Lemme put it to you this way. I was not ever, on the other hand, I would not have long, so I mean I did get around some and I'll do it all kind of psychotic behavior. Especially in other words. Okay, but that's easy to answer. Just an emotional, I mean that I handled it. I had certain rules, but I accepted myself. For instance, I would not lie, I would not have myself lying.

mj7-13:29

I always put at least one menstrual period between, so I anything just so I would know. I had four myself. I, but now forget it because there's no way I don't have somebody then somebody carry You didn't know they have it and they didn't know They have it understanding. Well let's put it this way. The woman can see the organ and there's nothing on it. She gets Explain that a friend mine you, somebody hass in their eyes. It looks like I collect this way. Frank Doesn't do his homework. I figured know. Sorry Frank, I'm this yourself. He asked his soul. Hey, it doesn't fantastic. Trying to capture some, we'll write it down in trailer. You shoulda I know. Answered.

== Footnotes ==

== End ==
</div>

Jim-Burns

2026-01-02T22:56:03Z

Dmadmin: typo

{{page header}}
[[Category:People]]
[[Category:Pittsburgh]]
[[Category:Groups]]
[[Category:Burns]]
<div id="widthlimiter">

== Rose's amazement with Burns ==

From: [[1986-0307-Are-You-a-Robot-Baltimore]]

"And this man talked for six hours without stopping. If I had had a tape recorder and taped it I would consider it my most prized possession. The wisdom that came out of that man was infinite. Of course, a lot of it was parables. Metaphorical."

Candidates for this talk:

[[1981-1127-or-1129-Rose-and-Burns-at-Farm]] < most likely, very intense, and this meetup was the earlier of the two.

or

[[1982-0417-Spring-TAT-Mtg-Rose-and-Burns]]

Jim-Burns

2026-01-02T22:54:01Z

Dmadmin: Add 2 candidates

{{page header}}
[[Category:People]]
[[Category:Pittsburgh]]
[[Category:Groups]]
[[Category:Burns]]
<div id="widthlimiter">

== Rose's amazement with Burns ==

Froom: [[1986-0307-Are-You-a-Robot-Baltimore]]

"And this man talked for six hours without stopping. If I had had a tape recorder and taped it I would consider it my most prized possession. The wisdom that came out of that man was infinite. Of course, a lot of it was parables. Metaphorical."

Candidates for this talk:

[[1981-1127-or-1129-Rose-and-Burns-at-Farm]] < most likely, very intense, and this meetup was the earlier of the two.

or

[[1982-0417-Spring-TAT-Mtg-Rose-and-Burns]]

Jim-Burns

2026-01-02T22:45:04Z

Dmadmin: Add cat Burns

1993-0401-Chapel-Hill-NC

2026-01-02T20:58:28Z

Dmadmin: Paste 1st pass Auto-AI

{{Page_header}}
[[Category:1990s]]
[[Category:North Carolina]]
[[Category:Lecture of Questions]]
[[Category:DVD]]
[[Category:Video]]
[[Category:Auto-AI]]
<div id="widthlimiter">
== Data Template ==


{{Recording Data
|record-date = April 1, 1993
|location = Chapel Hill, North Carolina
|number-tapes = 2 tapes x 2 = 4 mp3
|source = SN and ripped video
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s = SN audio is in 4 mp3 files. Audio ripped from video is in 4 mp3 files.
|total-time = 47 + 47 + 47 + 24 = 165 minutes = 2 hours, 45 minutes.
|transcription-status = Auto-AI was from audio files Nov 19, 2025. Pasted here Jan 2, 2026
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf =
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks =
|audio-quality =
|who-is-present =
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

== To Do ==
2nd pass
== Notes ==
This is a lecture. Have DVD-Video. Have audio mp3 as well as audio extracted from video, as above

Also see [[1993-Mr-Rose-Video-DVD-extract-Gabor]]

and [[1993-Mr-Rose-Video-DVD-commercial-recording]]

== Transcript ==

=== File sn1 ===
Time: 47:02

Speaker 1

sn1-00:07

I've got, this is called a lecture of questions in regard to Zen. Zen has less dogma and more confrontation and other movements and the whole, in a zen monastery for instance, questions are continually put to the students. There's no preaching, there's no dogma being preached. It is just that you're supposed to question until you get answers from within yourself. And so I put together this lecture of questions. Now I'll finish it. When I finish it, I will not take any questions and the reason for that, we can have a discussion and then a framework of that discussion. We can maybe exchange a lot with each other, but I just came from giving a lecture at Raleigh and I had people ask me, I said, well, when I through, I said, I'll leave it open for questions. And the first thing I got was a fellow who wanted to know why people were killing each other in Germany, so I should stop it or something.

sn1-01:27

See, and I got a few those foolish questions and even a little bit irritation because I couldn't provide a solution, prevent the murder of Muhammadans in Germany. Well, I didn't know they were murdering muhammadans. So consequently, I don't want to waste our time with political or things that don't honest searching, yes, I'll answer you until I get blue in the face or he gets to be midnight. I'll still answer if you have a spiritual question, but I prefer to do it in friendship as people discussing nothing, not trying to put the like I'm supposed to be know all everything. See, so anything happens on this planet, I'm responsible, so I hope you follow these a little bit.

sn1-02:28

They're supposed to have a pattern. Maybe they don't. I don't know. Maybe some people won't be a pattern. What do you know for sure? Does a man own a house or does the house own him? Does I presume people don't think about these things and go into them until maybe they get a house and it's too late. See, does a man have power or is he overpowered? In other words, we go out like we're going to conquer things. We're going to take a hunk out of a population here and become rich or whatever we want. Is he a predator or a victim or both? Does a man enjoy or is he consumed?

sn1-03:21

Does a man really reason or is he so programmed? Can a man learn that which he really wishes to by himself alone? Can a man become, how shall he know what he should become? Now this is the spirit of the coan. These are questions. I don't give the answers. I let you see if you can find out what the answers are, what they mean. Why build anthill before knowing what an ant is? Houses. Why do we build conceptual tires of Babel about human thinking? Before we know that, which thought is how can we dare to define thought before knowing the source and cause of all thought or the essence of thought?

sn1-04:18

When we describe bouncing, do you describe the striking object or that which is struck? When anything bounces, like you throw a ball against the wall of wall hits the ball and lots of times when you cause trouble, you think you're causing trouble, but trouble bounces back on you. Is thought the process of bouncing or the object struck everything, struck reacts with an opposite equal force. Can you start thinking, can you stop thinking? Try it, try it. Try to stop thinking. When I say that, most people say, sure, I can stop thinking. Sure. Well of course you can shoot yourself. You stop thinking it is thought. Something received or something projected meaning all thoughts is thought. A sort of somatic effluvium, some byproduct of the body or the brain or something. Do we think or are we forced to think?

sn1-05:26

Is negative thinking as commonly discussed negative to man or negative to nature? This is some of the traumas of psychology. Does the brain generate thought like a radio generates a message come to speak coming from the speaker? In other words, we think the thought comes from the head, so it must be generated in there so it must be produced some way. We never bother to try to find out why or how. Is thought limited to the brain When a tree bends over, does it create wind by waving against branches? Meaning what are we doing for certain and what is done to you?

sn1-06:16

What is telepathy? Is this thing working? Can you hear it back there? What is telepathy? Does thought travel beyond the head? Does only the head think what is the vehicle for thought travel? Sometimes people pick up a thought, a relative or something. They're 10 miles away. How did they get there? Where's the vehicle? No wires. Does the body manufacture thoughts or does the body only serve as a conduit? Where in the body are thoughts received during telepathy? Where are they sent? Do chemicals such as serotonin and other neurotransmitters create thought or do they merely facilitate the penetration into our consciousness of strictly sensory data?

sn1-07:16

Where will the answer to this question lead us Multidimensional or dimensional contacts and the means telepathy and communication with the dead or some of the things you hear were people's thoughts or they think they're getting readings from not a human being or at least not a living human being and telepathy is the same thing. We have no proof. We pick up something but we can't prove that we didn't imagine it or something of that sort. How many full hours do we spend analyzing our thought processes? I think this is very important. We go to school and spend a lot of time with a kind of understanding beforehand that we don't need to analyze, thought. We don't need to observe it. Are we only a body? Of course I believe that some people believe that in what part of the body is the seed of life? Where's the soul, if you want to put it that way? We can cut off an arm or leg or cut out and replace lungs, heart, kidneys, and still live.

sn1-08:31

We can have our nervous system severed at the neck with paralysis except in the head and still live and think we can remain unconscious for years while the body continues to live. Noting that a person who is brain dead according to medical instruments can continue to live, breathe in times, recover and function consciously. Do we think or do we imagine we think is our thinking automatic? Do not. Our thoughts come before we have time to replace them. When we decide to search for the source of thought, why do we become mentally wary or find our thoughts? Becoming able to find objective or describable distractions but unable to describe name or systematize, the progression, origins or duration of thought processes. We can't put a time on 'em. In other words, what I'm saying is man, only a blob of protoplasm which is programmed to react according to a schedule or is he a free agent? Conditioned reflexes we're talking about, that's a little buzzword he used to go around. Nothing. It's a human beings, nothing but a bunch of conditioned reflexes. That was an excuse for not knowing what it really was. Who programmed? Who stimulated like a thing called temptation. We have those and we may be victims.

sn1-10:10

We don't always know where these thoughts or compulsions come from. What is thought? Can we observe our thoughts? If we observe our thoughts? Who's looking? When we observe our thoughts? Are we not thinking about thinking? Is such a thinker? Someone who dreams of yesterday thinking that he watches a dreamer or is he detached a detached watcher of past and present thoughts? Who is awake and aware of the mechanical man? It's all automatic. Perhaps I'm not saying it is, but maybe what are we an animated body and a suppressed, stagnated soul, A soul trapped in a body. Nothing's coming of it. Do we have a mind? Are we mind stuffed or are we programmed to body and mind?

sn1-11:02

Do we actually know that which we are doing? If so, why do we repeatedly regret things that we do? Does the meta zone insect, animal or man know why it reproduces? Do the trees create wind by waving their branches or is it always moved by an external force? Does a person seduce another or are both seduced? What does a man do besides fertilize? Are you a hero or a victim? Are you loved or are you consumed? Do you have possessions or are you possessed by them which is more evidential and apparent to you? Your divinity or your animal appearance?

sn1-12:02

If we wish to plan our lives, do we not need to consider while planning that it may all be planned and that we have no choice? That's called fatalism. How do we plan around that possibility? Must we not define our limitations? When we define our limitations, do we automatically need to define ourself? Do we discover more accurately the nature of ourself? How much of man's human action is faded? Predestined is the knowledge of factors of any value in the face of possible predestination. In other words, if everybody's predestined, what do we have? How can we control? Is there a will? Then immediately find it Can't be much will for predestine. What do we know? For sure? Again, do you believe more than you really know? I think we believe a whole lot. We'd like to know more, but we kind of force ourselves to believe.

sn1-13:00

Get along with the public is all of our reality merely, merely a collective belief, a paradigm. We get this from Chilton Pierce. I dunno if you've heard of him in science, a mental feat is science a mental feat created by mankind or is only a human discovery of a mental set? It's very important to know this progressive science or is scientific reality only a progression of events planned and expedited by a mentality of cosmic or spiritual proportions which utilize the mentality, egos and energy of humans. What is life? What is death? Three flat readings on an EKG.

sn1-13:54

Are these items ever properly defined except in terms of each other? Can theological facts be established by voting? Is Mary the mother of God or is humanity the mother of God or neither is God determined by victorious armies? That's what's happening around over the world today. Like I said, this one fellow wanted me to take care of the fighting that what's going on in Berlin. Lynn, the Raleigh talk is virtue established by psychological edict, by ecclesiastical vote, or by the requisites of our ultimate essence. What is sin? An offense against yourself, an offense against your fellow man. An offense against God is an offense against God recognized by divine outcry, earthquake or cosmic catastrophe. Does it really mean that much to God? If you sin, see, is it a sin? Eat meat. Are the animals our brothers, are they possessed of intelligence and soul? Do animals sin when they eat each other or are such sinning animals? Pardon? For keeping ecology in balance. Is it wrong to kill except for food? If so, do we do wrong by not eating the people we kill?

sn1-15:31

I was inspired by a guy by the name of Dahmer on that one who is knowledgeable about good. The item goodness is good that which we desire or that which is in itself good. What is the condition of being good in itself? Is evil the child of good or is it a twin? If a man drives a horse or a plate glass window, should the man be prosecuted or the horse? If a man steals defeat his children, should we prosecute the man or that which drove him? The children? If a man rapes a girl, should we prosecute A the man, B, the girl that attempted him C, his ancestors for his genetic inheritance or glandular inclination and D, the forces that desire mankind. What is equality? Was Samson equal to? Delilah is a baby equal to a dying man and said, I had a little conversation with you several years back about killing babies and there was a fellow in the audience, I dunno what his trade was, but he didn't like the idea of not having abortion.

sn1-17:01

I was supposed to be open to the public and I am not above abortion, but I said that my opinion was it's better that an old man die than kill a baby. The old man's lived his life. Of course if you kill the old man, they can maybe execute you. If you kill a baby, they're not going to execute you. It depends on where the baby is when you kill him. See? And so he stormed out, he said, I've heard all I want to hear he this. My conviction is if a man gets cancer and he's dying, his life isn't as important as the baby. In other words, you have to take care of one or the other. You take care of the baby. Are you only half of a plan by virtue of possessing both sexes? Is peace of mind more important than global peace or herd peace? Who or what are you? Are you only a body or do people believe that incidentally, are you rather a complex organism, a cell colony, a nature oriented bundle of condition reflexes that was a buzzword for years or condition reflexes? Is the brain a monitoring station designed for the organisms in definite survival or is our body program for death with a death gene following procreation like the corn and the wheat?

sn1-18:33

Is all religion and philosophy merely rationalizing rationally emanating from that computer to answer constant cellular awareness of death? Or is the universal belief in life after death and intuitive reading from that computer, a reading not completely translated into computer symbols which are limited. In other words, we get by observing our environment, we get the evidence that the bodies all end up in death. Is there a soul? But we like to know that did it exist before the body or must it be developed, grown or evolved? Where did where'd he come from? Prove the following. Here are some of the buzzwords or letters mind as other than somatic awareness, subconscious mind, ego, i, superego, chakra, kundalini, astro ether, causal desire, body, ro, halo, ectoplasm, spiritual air conscience, spiritual nectar. I hear these things from a lot of the people that start a new movement. They have, they got new definitions for the soul of man, what is time? Does time pass or is it only you who passes?

sn1-20:09

Is space time a stable matrix? While we are only transient visitors, how much of life is a mirage? Do we see this world infallibly or obliquely? Are the senses infallible? Can you see or hear or feel or smell or taste? Time is time only a relative conceptualization. What is the reality of time? Does the ant or amoeba interpret duration the same as a man does its time passed or does its time pass more swiftly? In other words, we wonder if the insect has and the calendar to which he can check the time when he wants to know what day it is or how old he is or that sort of thing. So it seems to us that there's a difference. The duration of time for insects may be just as long to them as our life spread is to us in duration.

sn1-21:17

Is time only a relative conceptualization? What is the reality? What is duration? What does the lifetime feel like? Does it feel differently to a child than to an old person? And you find that out to a child sometimes time never seems to move, they just wait and wait and worry why it's not getting later or something of that sort. But when you get older, time moves with a rapidly or seemingly that's not necessarily a phenomenon. It might be strictly something in the mind or brain that causes that. Do we remember a duration or measure? If we have no clock at hand, do we remember how long a pain lasted when the pain occurred years ago?

sn1-22:09

Would women become pregnant as often if they remembered the duration intensity of the pain of childbirth? And if you talked to women, I've talked to quite a few women that they had pain in childbirth, but it passed away and it was ignored. It didn't seem to mean anything once the affair was completed. Do we have a real sense of time when we hear a clock ticking? Do we then know what a second is or what stretch of consciousness exists for others in that second? Do the wings of the hummingbird move rapidly or slow to the gauging of the hummingbird? Does he think they're moving fast? It looks like us to us he is, but they don't seem to worry him out to the time sense of the fruit fly. Is his life long or short as the sense or of duration or passing time proportional to the mass of the entity that experiences does time exist other than the fascination which seems to be brief or longer duration is if the sun is our ultimate clock of earth rotation as measurement. What is our measurement of time after the death of our senses is time and illusion that prevents us from experiencing a self that has no motion.

sn1-23:35

Have you ever heard a clock ticking in a delirium? If the mind can be distorted in a delirium or in an LSD trip, does the mind ever understand the true feeling of a second? What is nostalgia? Is it the soul's view of a previous feeling? What is space? Is space interdependent with time? Are they not measured by each other? We have the light year time is determined by spatial phenomena. It's rotation, duration. Do space and time exist at all except in reference to us? What is the understanding of insects of the distance to the sun and the moon? If you could talk to a fly, what would he tell you? If you ask him how far it was it the moon, do we have a true picture of nature? When we appreciate nature as being beautiful is such appreciation of life or death a meaning?

sn1-24:39

A lot of these things that are very beautiful are dying and even animals. Have you ever watched the war that goes on in a drop of water or in the cancerous tissues? We used to have a film we could run and watch the cancer being attacked, attacking the cell. Actually you see it on the film projected on a wall or canvas. How many proto zones are required to sustain the world's meta zones? Can they be counted? How many proto zones are eaten alive every second? How many microscopic meta zones are eaten each second by larger meta zones? Is death painless for these beings? Do they scream? How many small meta zones are need to feed one worm for a day or one insect? How many worms or insects die every minute to feed the birds? How many worms or insects are needed to feed a pair of birds in their fledglings each day?

sn1-25:40

How many worms or insects are needed for one henze in the summer? We hear the hum of many insects. Is this the hum beautiful or castl or a bed Land of insects screaming Are the songs of birds more than just mating noises are not trees more active and autumn when they're dying, which is the true destiny of all beings, A growth individual eminence or a means of energy. Food for higher beings, meaning predators and zen. They have a thing called a coan, and I know about this time you're getting wary of the coan, but I think you'll absorb some of them. Should self definition have priority over concerns for health? One of the things I've always resented is in school, in college I've taken courses in psychology and none of them ever defined the self. They told what our body did and that was behavior. You didn't know what the self did, but you took data on the body's movements is the idea of personal immortality before such an idea has been proven by experiencing immortality any more than a egotistical idea, and I think this is a thought that comes to us when a person is getting close to death, he realizes he doesn't know anything. What are the mechanics of divine healing? Should the search for God have precedence over using an unidentified divinity as a healing utility?

sn1-27:28

Is God a gigantic just out? Why are we here? Are we accidents of evolution? Animals that accidentally evolved upon a planet that accidentally evolved and the chances of accidental evolution seem unlikely in view of the complexities of protoplasm such as the ability of the cell to produce milli voltage components and to possess memory? Can we say all this came about by an immediate or instantaneous teleological prompting which had to take thousands of years to develop over the million years needed to evolve less specialized cells similar to plant cells. In other words, it's very difficult looking back to the source of our mechanism, our body and stuff. How did new road transmitters evolved?

sn1-28:21

Were we created by skillful biochemists? What is the process that would result in the evolution of synaptic voltage? Is life a dream? I hope you know what the synapse is because this seems to be a key thing in the thinking processes. Is life a dream or an illusion? And there's two schools of thought in that. If so, is it not a very detailed, detailed, inconsistent dream? Showing few variations seeming to strictly adhere to a blueprint is man manufacturing the blueprint by setting up a rough paradigm and creating details such as brain chemistry as he goes along. If so has banned lost control of his creation. If he cannot find an alternate for disease and death, what are the odds for an accidental synthesis of two ketone enzymes? Now this is one of the theories about how life forms first formed that there was the planet was supposed to have been, had nothing on it. It was created by either action or the will of God or something of that sort. So where did life start? It started where the water met the land supposedly, and these were not even living beings. They were enzymes accidentally formed enzymes. That's one of the theories. I am not trying to sell it to you, it's to say that's one of the theories of how all life started was the accidental coming together of ketone enzymes.

sn1-30:03

The enzyme is co plus two hydrocarbon radicals. It has been suggested that life began by the synthesis of the two ketone enzymes probably in water. What is the significance of common denominators? Are they valid for evaluating religions and behaviors? Is there a body manufactured source as an od ll Elon vial or quantum energy capable of powerful and magical power, transferable and projectable? I was talking outside here about strange things that happened and talking about a girl that as I watched her head came apart and what energy was used to do that? This was literal, I don't know. I know if I had a camera and photographed it, the head would've been together, but she was proud to call herself a witch, but she could cause that illusion. Certainly she didn't want to be looked at too closely.

sn1-31:19

There are two windows states of mind which are not consistent with each other. They're the daytime view and the night view. In other words, we don't think the same in nighttime as we do in the daytime. Very possibly the nighttime view is more emotional. The latter with its dreams and horizontal speculation upon awakening from a strange field of thought threatens the convictions of the daytime. And I think we know this that we put in a bad night and that's all we can do is wait. Hoping day comes in a hurry because we've had a nightmare or something happened that we didn't like to think about. What bearing do these often morbid night states of mind have on violent acts? Is there any value in speculating on the genesis of biologic or human life weighing the value and importance of slow evolvement against a possible perfect instantaneous creation and weighing the suffering and dying against perfect or unchanging immortality?

sn1-32:27

These are in every spiritual search or belief that this is what you have. You have a desired belief or eternal immortality, but our bodies tell us that they're not immortal and so then we have to stop and think. Is our consciousness immortal? Is our mind immortal, our ecologist possibly trying to thwart the ordained directions of the engineer who designed the evolution of life, sanity and syphilis? Are they both decided by approval via democratic voting? They want to vote on everything today. See, we're going to change our language essentially certain people vote and say, this is the way you got to talk. If man did not cause himself, then that which caused him is invisible, meaning not apparent to this dimension. What reason would a superior engineer have for creating life as seen on earth, meaning all floor and fauna?

sn1-33:34

In other words, if we conceive something created this, then the next question is why? Why all this many million different types of pictures? How rational are some of the reasons given for the acceptance of the creator except the creator concept and set of morals presumed to gain tolerance in the creator? In other words, we get so fearful that we are the result of a creator that we dream up ways of flattering the creator, get in good with him. This seems to be the political way to get information. Why is talk necessary? And when I talk, I mean different perspectives.

sn1-34:29

What causes different perspectives? What liabilities are incurred with unavoidable states of mind? And again, we've had that all through psychology. What is the state of mind that's not defined? Are perspectives rooted in valid basis and definitions or in undefinable feelings which may be as valid or meaningful as definitions? Does a given color cause the same reaction to all people? Do we react to their environment the same? Why do some perfumes enc chant one person and cause nausea in another? What is beauty? How do perspectives which are hindered by feelings affect science? Do they help or hinder? Can a scientist totally rule up feelings out of judgment? Did the scientists of Columbus time field the earth was flat or did they know that earth was flat? What is wisdom?

sn1-35:30

Is it foolishness or wasted effort? Unless it is restricted to objective or materialistic values in others, we can't have anything that is verbalized. If it doesn't show material value and there may well be, there may well be. That stuff does exist. It doesn't have a material. Value is all wisdom. Unbiased is a wise man, just one who gets along with his fellow man is wisdom just adaptation symbiosis or a blending with others to a point of losing personal identity? Is silence a trademark of wisdom even if silence is caused by cowardice? Who or what is the authority in regard to human essence or nature? Does a person love or is he or she incapable of loving? Does not a person desire to be loved while pretending to love others? Does it tick love to the host or the blood of the host? Is love of every kind, programmed and projected into us?

sn1-36:37

Is there only one dimension in this thing of this being programmed into us? If you want to study psychology, I say the first thing to do is spend some time on a farm and you'll find out the animals. They give you a lot of information. See, but we hide it, we hide it. The animals are manifest. Does not the possibility of multiple dimensions weaken our significance and our pretended potential for crow controlling our environment? This is a big battle. Crack goes out. Where's that? Suppose we're going to get together and control the environment. What is God? What are his dimensions? What is the soul? Are these just aberrated ideas? Why do people use words like God or soul without going to some effort to define them? This is the whole thing of a spiritual process. I'm not ridiculing religion. I'm saying we don't go to the bother. We use the words. We never go to the bother and work it out and say, what is God? Let's find him. What is a soul? Let's look and see if we really got one. What is an idea? Is there a thinking self or only an awareness that witness's reactions and may possibly witness a pseudo self or ego? Can a man have spiritual or essence clarity and be psychologically confused?

sn1-38:01

Are we an individual or a conglomerate of several selves? These are psychological alternatives, alternative opinions. Is there such a conglomerate? If there is such a conglomerate, how is the real self isolated? I mean not just now isolated the real self by taking the position of external questioner, this is what goes on. We're questioning these components, the soul, the mindedness, and immediately we are taking the position of an external questionnaire and that's more scientific is thought a possession or an obsession? What is the relationship between thoughts and glands? And this is a good one to spend a lot of time on. What is sanity or insanity is sanity. Only somatic, healthiness. Healthiness are unpopular people insane. You see a guy acting funny and you say, oh, he's crazy. He's outside the normal curve. You got to keep away from him. Could sanity ever mean that state of mind with perfect understanding of all problems, a state of mind from which the altering lens of ego has been removed from mental vision or perception?

sn1-39:19

Would such a version of sanity imply the need of perfected logic or perfected intuition? In other words, in analyzing yourself, can you do it with logic? Pretty soon I think you find it. You can't do too much with their logic, so you have to be, something has to come in from outside. And that's the intuition. We don't know where a hunch comes from. We get the hunch. And if we have a high percentage of successes with ches, then we've got more perfected intuition because that's what the hunch is. It's an intuition. How does one arrive at it?

sn1-39:57

These things are very valuable. If you're looking for esoteric values like the end product of zen. Zen is a study of the mind. And you don't do it by logic. You can't weigh the mind. You can't take it out of the head. It's not in the head. It's not even in the protoplasm. It's somewhere in the consciousness. But the whole thing in the work of zen is to keep trying to focus in on sensible, sensible answers to the problems. These problems we don't know much about ourself. We don't know why we're here and we don't know the definition of thought even or the origin of thought, which part of the bodies it come from and that sort of thing. And again, this thing is what is intuition? And then on spiritual searches, you have to depend on your intuition. Logic doesn't do much on you.

sn1-41:08

Is thought a synaptic reaction to an electrical stimulus? If we cannot woefully think, do we ever make decisions or is it possible that only people who realize that they cannot enforce decisions are the ones that eventually may find ways and means to make things happen? If we think about thought is thought, then objective and separate from the thinking self is thought, an entity or a emanation of sorts. These things might sound foolish to you, but you've heard accounts of people, a man sitting a thousand miles from another person and convey a thought and they write a letter to each other. Maybe it's maybe a shock, but the letter doesn't get there in time. Somebody in the family dies and his relative picks up his knowledge of that a thousand miles away. And these are the things we don't explain by in the psychology books, but there's something there that the mind seems to have an elasticity capability that we never bothered to speak about.

sn1-42:19

Can sanity be gauged by logic? Is behavior considered normal by virtue of percentages of incidents? I'm talking about the so-called normal curve. Now is all such normal behavior always logically excusable? In other words, is sanity a way of measuring the skill of survival? Or is sanity also involved in the skill of checking factors such as motivation, correct reasons for living, quality control or morality and the control or evaluation of environmental factors? Would our behavior be the same if we discovered by logical or even common sense means that our environment was greater or less than we previously believed it to be wasn't that important. Perhaps more mind dimension.

sn1-43:17

In other words, we behave the same way. If we discovered beyond speculation that there was no life after death or that our environment included other perhaps endless dimensions. How would we react to the incontrovertible discovery if an inescapable immortality? I've even heard people say, I wouldn't want it. I wouldn't want to go on forever, like to live little longer, but no, no, this idea of having to do this forever and ever, that it's unbearable. And also we have to take into consideration that our environment includes other perhaps endless dimensions. How would we react to the incontrovertible discovery of an inescapable mortality? Is what I've read before. Are we not caught somewhere between? There's not this materialism, a bit of fence writing that says on one hand that we cannot accept only that which we see while refusing to look or see new factors not immediately accessible to our senses or new truths which would give new definitions to life and new meaning to existence.

sn1-44:31

I am talking about psychic impressions that somehow come through with data and give new meaning to our existence. The psychiatry contains opinions rather than pure scientific findings. Most of the stuff I found in psychology isn't proven. Is psychology becoming a cult? Does psychology or psychotherapy rule by edict rather than reasons? Is there any science in the moods operandi of these current mental therapies? Is it safe to allow psychologists to monitor our lives if they are only cognizant of body survival and would program us only for that? Are psychologists who work in advertising and promotion a boon to mankind? Or are they manipulators without proper respect for the victims of self or spurious interests? Can the psychiatrist produce sanity in the person if he has not adequately defined sanity? How's he going to create this thing if he defines sanity? Should he the psychiatrist, not be required to bring sanity to sanity to every patient who is in any degree insane?

sn1-45:50

That's the injury, that's the trauma. What's he doing? See, it don't seem to be any degree, any effort to work on those people. What does behaviorism has improved? What do the tracks made by an animal prove? Do they tell you about the essence or purpose of the animal? And the tracks are the equivalent of behavior. Does a normal curve define normality and morality? If the 51% of the killers will kill, will that make killing normal? That's the definition for sanity is what the most people do. Can we study the mind by ignoring brain chemistry and behavioristic testing, introspective structuralists? Is it more important to what a man is thinking or capable of doing than it is to know who it is that is thinking or doing and what is thought? The whole thing goes back. We've never analyzed the substance of thought. Are the conclusion reached by introspective thinking, corroborated by sciences.

=== File sn2 ===
Time: 46:56

Speaker 1

sn2-00:01

Such as brain chemistry and the statistics of behaviorism. Is there anything in regard to this that is not intelligible to you or you'd like to ask some questions on? I would like to naturally limit the questions to the subject at hand, not to politics or anything like that. Yeah,
Speaker 2

sn2-00:51

I can't hear you. What's that? Questions read. A lot of people might be read a lot of books. If you want define something, you look in a dictionary now you might find that maybe two or three places in the dictionary up. You find that whatever you found, in other words, you can't, this is our trouble. We're trying to label stuff and things are not,
Speaker 1

sn2-01:32

It's not easy to nail them down. Absolutely. See things change and as they change, perhaps their definition changes. See especially abstract things or faculties in the mind that aren't flesh like thought. We have no proof of the nature of thought yet. We just take it for granted. Everybody thinks because we just think, but we don't know the chemistry of it. I don't know why it is.
Speaker 3

sn2-02:08

On some of your questions, you ask them, you have a point of view. You have a point of view on these questions.
Speaker 1

sn2-02:19

Those questions are not necessarily to bring education to you, but encourage you to think. It doesn't. I'm not saying that they're all corrected or they're all incorrect or that they're all scientific. I'm just saying there's a lot in nature that we accept and we don't have a good reason for accepting it. Just like I used that statement when if you drive a horse through a plate glass window, who do? Maybe you wasn't in holding the reins of the horse, so do you arrest the horse or the guy who owned the horse? See, and the same way with us, we do, we commit crimes, human race commits crimes, and lots of times it appears in the paper that the person couldn't prevent it. There's no way to prevent it. See meaning there's influences on people that get them killed, get them put in the penitentiary or get them killed. See, we have to weigh all these ul ultimatums or things in science and see if they're true to form or if they hold good for everybody.
Speaker 3

sn2-03:48

When you ask a question, if you have a question in your mind, which you're not sure of, how do you know whether you have the answer that comes to your mind is correct or
Speaker 1

sn2-03:57

Not? I don't think you do. I don't think you do. Right? You can ask. We're inventing a lot of words and this is what happens. Somebody writes a book. You got to have textbooks for people to pretend to study at least see, and that isn't necessarily a book of truths. It may be incorrect. And if you follow the history of psychology back, you'll find out that the rules or so-called discoveries of psychology to turn into the century were all together differently and differently defined. See? Do you understand what I mean? For instance, I've had old books on psychology that were printed before the time of the century, and of course they were medical doctors too, as well as there was no such thing as a psychologist. There was just a doctor that was interested in the thinking processes and they would give you advice on behavior and well, for instance, one of them was the old timers always advised the young people to control their sexual energy. Now this is supposed to be hilarious nonsense. You're not supposed to reserve your sexual energy. You're supposed to do what comes naturally or whatever you want to do.

sn2-05:32

At least Crowley says, do what? That will be the whole of the law. See, so these terms in psychology have different meanings at different times, and they're not by any means guaranteed to be perfect. The definitions aren't perfect. Psychology is still in early stages of exploration. Yeah. Talk about KY and
Speaker 4

sn2-06:06

What he had to say. I just curious, I've read some of the stuff you're saying when you were warning about certain concept structures.
Speaker 1

sn2-06:15

I can't hear you. It gets complicated now. Writings about not really getting
Speaker 4

sn2-06:19

Trapped into concept structures or ways of thinking that are just kind of concepts. Not really solid. But then you've seen the talk about KY and his writings is something that's pretty valid system and yet the way he kind of breaks apart the cell to emotion,
Speaker 1

sn2-06:38

You're talking about us. Yeah. Do you think that his system is pretty valid or do you think that's the same kind of concept structure that number one, he was not a psychologist. I think he was a theorist of some sorts, had theories about matter, but I don't think, I think it is good to read the man because he was a brain. He wrote some books on reality, things that he thought were real and searched for the reality and some search for magical things too. Things that were happening without any explanation. And he worked with a guy by the name of EF for a long time and IV had his own system in which incidentally, I consider EF the greatest psych that ever hit the Western hemisphere. Well, that's kind of what
Speaker 4

sn2-07:48

I was talking about. His system specifically the way that Finky talks about him inviting himself into the emotional and intellectual and instinctual and moving centers.
Speaker 1

sn2-08:00

I don't know where those centers are. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. I don't think he ever pointed it out where they were, but it is just breaking up. I think my feeling was that he had to come up with something that looked like it would be accepted as a sensible explanation, and it wasn't sensible. He didn't look deeply enough. He had a general, he wrote a lot of stuff. I thought that was good and it helped people in their thinking process, but you couldn't cover all that stuff. Ger just did the same thing. He had, what'd he call 'em? Hydrogens and stuff. I never could define what these hydrogens were, but I do know that some of the things he said showed that he had a tremendous insight and a tremendous intuition. The human being and seemingly was capable of even healing people if we could accept the literature. I was never met the man, but I still knew that for some of the things he said, that's gi, if not Pensky, but he had a great mind. He had a great mind. Yeah.
Speaker 5

sn2-09:20

You said a minute ago, it's really hard to nail down meanings and things and how it's really hard to get a really concrete definition of some things. Do you believe there's any really good way of transmitting ideas through language,
Speaker 1

sn2-09:38

Transmitting them where

sn2-09:40

Ideas or concepts through language. Language, which is pretty much based on universal definition, universal what? Language, languages which are based on universally accepted definition. Sometimes they're universally created but later changed. For instance, you take the history of oxygen, little thing like oxygen, they had an altogether different concept of oxygen. They didn't realize that it was something that attacked that it would attack and cause iron to rust. See, they thought it was almost like a being that eroded the iron. And that went on for quite a few years before someone got a better picture of it. I think it could have been laie or one of his, the guys that lived at his time, a lot of even the material sciences were mislabeled and they were declarations made about what they were and then they had to be changed when we found the difference. So that was, you might say, the path of oxygen. We didn't really know what oxygen was. In other words, I don't think at that time, time of laise air and those people that they had a table of, what do you call it?

sn2-11:30

A big table of periodic? Yeah, the different elements. Elemental table. For instance, when I studied chemistry to be a chemist, there was only 90 some elements, and here we popped up with the 220, since the total now is maybe over 220. So how did they do that? They didn't have all matter. Some of the stuff that they created, I mean it was combinations set up a new element. See? So it's pretty hard to, it is pretty hard to define almost everything. Everything's moving. Theological discoveries are moving too. We thought that they had absolute knowledge. Everybody had the people in the know the teachers absolutely the best of the field at that time. They didn't. They got surprises.
Speaker 3

sn2-12:42

That approach. How's it different
Speaker 1

sn2-12:44

From any other approach to strange about these acoustics? I can't hear very
Speaker 3

sn2-12:50

Zen approach to self knowledge. How is that approach different from knowing yourself to any other source? Why zen?
Speaker 1

sn2-12:57

Well, you almost have to get some of their literature to get a system. There is a system, but the process of zen is incessant, attacked upon our mental beliefs, our definitions, and it seems somebody back there discovered if enough pressure is put on a person to make them think, they will even be able to come up with revelations about non matter, meaning the human soul, life after death and that sort of thing. Zen is the supposed to have been a very high type of analysis of the human soul and the invisible parts of life and the universe too. But I ain't saying that the universe meant that much, but we've always down through the ages and we're still doing it. Our religion is not one of proof. Our religion is one of belief and it goes on still new ones are popping up all the time. Somebody gets out on a podium and says, I found the real true translation of the Bible, so we're all going to believe this. And hundreds of people follow him and he may be right and he may not be, but they're taking some shots at it out there in Waco, Texas because he had a new definition of religion. See? So in Asia it was the same thing.

sn2-14:35

They had, instead of writing a lot of words down and comparing opinions, they went directly to the soul of man. That was their effort to go directly to the soul of man and try to contemplate to see number one, if he had a soul, number one, if he could find some harmony with that thought or would that bring him knowledge about all unknowns things. In other words, there's for instance, I always marvel when I read about the people in Asia that had measurement of time in Yugas, which we say a couple of thousand years or perhaps a million years, but they had that all worked out. They had no instruments, they had no, what should we call it? Surveying instruments to tell distance or time or anything else. But by focusing in with the mind and not relenting, just keeping it up.

sn2-15:41

Stuff starts to happen, not while you're thinking, but maybe when you stop thinking something the light goes on and says, oh, it might be this. And yet by removing the manifestly ridiculous, we gradually go to truer things and then somewhere along the lines we get proof or conviction that we're, right. Now I'm talking about all religious movement. For instance, a person that believes in a soul, he has no proof, but down the road something happens to him. He can't argue it. He can't argue it, but he lives it and he changes. He gets powers. Now. The powers are the only proof that he has. When I'm talking about powers in literature read, they go so far as to raise the dead. They cure them of illnesses. You read people's minds, you walk up to a mind and tell 'em what he's thinking. These are caused by just relentless putting your attention on that and you're getting away from everything that keeps you from thinking about it.

sn2-17:04

If it's food or sex or anything, quit it. We're going to solve the problem first. And they go into those monasteries and they starve themselves. They go without sex or reproduction until they get some answer. And that was the whole method. And the Indians in this country had something very similar to that. They sent their young men out when they got to be a certain age to come back with what it was like a religious answer of nature. And they were supposed to stay out until they got it. It seems like when you get the mind or challenge it and say, think or die, and it gets that important, sometimes some good material comes through and then other people have the same experience and they corroborate and say, yes, this is true. And we get new definitions for the soul and new definitions for what happens after death.
Speaker 4

sn2-18:13

Tradition talked about enlight. Would an enlightened man know the answers to all these questions,
Speaker 1

sn2-18:22

Questions, but are there answers for, well, I presume that the guy gives a code and has concocted an answer that he wants. I don't say they, but the thing is that we don't, in the western world, we go about things slightly different and that is presuming that we're going to be educated by a thing called God. See now I'm not saying that he shouldn't do that, but he's limited then to his inspection area and he's is going to have to struggle to find a person, a being. See now on the other side of the thing, we only take what is, for instance, a person is ill, he's sick and a healer comes along. He don't know. He is a healer. He would just like to be a healer. He feels sorry for sick people or dying people. He puts his hand on the man, he cures him.

sn2-19:28

I know of many cases like this, many cases where you take a chance, you say, well, the guy's sick, he's getting worse, what harms are going to be? But he rouses some element in himself. We have inside of ourself an ability to cause and it's almost like you have to put yourself under a tremendous discipline of focusing only on that. We criticize a lot of the monks and the monasteries for not having sex or humiliating themselves and that sort of thing. But he's got to do something to keep everything off his mind except one drive, one aim. And sometimes when he hits that one aim, when he gets an answer to it, he gets multiple answers. He gets a system, a system starts, a forum, and he validates it. But the unfortunate part about religion, most of the religion we experience is it's blind belief. And then the next step is it becomes a business then it's a racket. And you get nothing from religion that way, but you become one with it. If your mind can become one with it, you can perform miracles. Yeah.
Speaker 3

sn2-20:55

Would that notion of a God answering your prayers if you can solve the problem within your own mind?
Speaker 1

sn2-21:02

Well, I don't think that we strain almost that there's, I can't say what it is. See, I don't like to say, I don't really say there's not a God. See what I mean? Number one, I don't see any evidence. I say this is a big universe. I don't necessarily say that somebody built that. That'd be tremendous job, but it happened. It's here. Okay, we are here. Okay, so there's no code. Book comes to the person and says, well, if he gets cancer, the brain, here's what you do. Or he gets this illness, but somebody else just has a tremendous wish.

sn2-21:40

I often said a woman as a baby, what is it? The monkeys. Monkeys will have little ones and will give them baby dolls and to play with and intelligence changes. Instead of being brooding and not wanting to be bothered, they brighten up. Well, the same thing that the woman conveys after the child's born. Now from her body, and I don't mean the milk either, but she can heal that child through her skin with intense emotions. See? And the child can, as a result of it, and so grows up to be more of an agreeable child because has a bond with its mother, it it's found the magic. It knows where the magic is.

sn2-22:42

So what we have, we have the possibility of discovery through psychic methods. We were doing some of this just a night or two ago. We were working on hypnosis. Using hypnosis. Put a person in a certain frame of mind and you can change their whole lifestyle. It's almost like healing. And you give them a suggestion and with it goes, if you're just a huckster making money off of hypnotizing people, it doesn't work as much as if you care care for the person. Then it seems that it's just like the baby. The mother cares for the baby. The baby retains its health or it gets healthier. Let's put it that way. But we can by using the mind in determined contemplation, determined contemplation, things can be done. Things happen. And now as far as zen itself, the process, the aim of it is only to find the truth about life.

sn2-24:12

It's not necessarily to heal, but some of them have the power anyhow. Some of them may have the power anyhow. And I know I'm not interested in proving existence of the world as much as I am to find a method of maybe curing somebody and things that I saw experience convinced me about things in the Bible. I never cared much for the Bible. It was translated too many times. So I thought, oh, why put too much faith in it. But then after these happen, I'm talking about a ways and means I'd like to be able to get across.

sn2-24:59

It happens almost magically. So that one day I was reading an account in the Bible and some woman was ill, said she had a suffering from a bleeding. I think she was bleeding an issue of blood was the word that used in the Bible. And she was shy or something, and she corrupted up by rai and touched his garment and she was instantaneously healed. This to a practical person. Sounds silly, maybe touching his body maybe, but why the garment? Why would that have a change? But I'm convinced that that happens with some healers. I mean they're small. What I've experienced small potatoes. But I used to take headaches away from people just on a hunch. I said, I wonder if I can do it. I put my hand on their head and take it away and see, this is what I'm talking about. Well, if I could take a headache out somebody's head, maybe I could. I'd have to take a hat off maybe. Maybe I wouldn't have to take a hat. Maybe I could touch the hat and take the headache away. So I see that analogy with these statements in the Bible. And there may be a system, those words might be teaching us the system of doing things and helping people that have that see little power or faith, huh? Little power or faith.

sn2-26:41

I don't know. I wouldn't call it face because all the stuff that happened with me happened before I even thought it would happen. See, you just wait and see. And I don't think it's willpower. I don't think I could force or anybody could force good wellness in a sick person. Love, yes, sympathy for relative sometimes does a tremendous lot. See, but not just bullying in and saying, Hey, I'm going to get my reputation, keep my reputation up and heal these people that are ill. I think too that you should hesitate. Hesitate before you do it. And then in doing it, say, what have we got to lose? What have we got to lose? Let's go through the passes or the touching, whatever it is. Nothing happens. Okay? Something happens. Wow, that's wonderful. And that takes the ego ego out. Don't rejoice that you did something, rejoice that it happened and then it'll happen more frequently. And that's what I've discovered in my life. Yes. Is there any difference between magic and science? Chaos in order magic and what? Magic and science and chaos In order. Chaos In order, what do you mean?
Speaker 5

sn2-28:17

In other words, is it just magic? Until we understand scientifically how it works and then it signs, and then it's only chaos. As long as you don't
Speaker 2

sn2-28:26

Understand it, then it's order. After the science is established, you mean after? Well, there's
Speaker 1

sn2-28:35

Never any order comes from this thing I'm talking about. It can't be applied. I mean, there's no way that a formula can be laid out and you say, follow this and this will happen. You'll cure people. See what I mean? Now science, what it does, people fool around and first of all, they try the chemical on dogs, cats and that sort of thing. Then they try it on people. And if it works, okay, then that's scientifically accepted and it is there. But what we're talking about is things that you don't use medicine and isn't restricted to health. It isn't restricted to that. Other things can be caused, other things can be caused to happen.

sn2-29:24

And once you learn this, then you can be a real bad jam. And all you have to do is not try willfully to do it. We don't do this willfully. It doesn't work, but willfully, let's see if it happens. See, and we can't draw up a chemistry handbook, something similar to that of this type of healing. See, because it's not, science has, it's limited and it's limited possibly because it only will operate a certain way. See, in other words, you take the cookbook out in chemistry and it tells you exactly how many drops, something to create a certain chemical to perform a certain thing. See, but what I'm talking about is the causing of things to happen. And it may sound to you the way I'm stating it, you may sound this is nonsense, but this is the people who do get healed. That's what happens. They don't know. There's nothing tangible that they can see. All they have the will is to help somebody and get a hunch, follow the hunch, put your hand on their head or you know, said a
Speaker 5

sn2-30:52

Couple times. You have to bear is really intense goodwill towards somebody, or the magic actually comes and it's not something that's simply materialistic. It's nothing. I'm just going to do this so I can make money. You have a bear that's really good. Somebody conceivable that the magic, magic possible come through an intense bad will for somebody. An intense what? Is it conceivable that you can bear the same intensity of will for somebody, but in a negative way if you really wish bad on somebody, but not through your own material game
Speaker 1

sn2-31:33

That possible. I think that's possible. I'll tell you if you want to get into this, get some information on the Unas. There's books on it by Max Freedom Long. He spent a lot of time over there studying, and this is what they did. They healed people, they killed people. Also, it didn't seem like there was any repercussion. For instance, they used their power to get even. And they go to a guy that could do these, I forget what they called 'em, and like a priest, but he wasn't a priest. He was a magic. We had some sort of magic and they could mentally kill the other, the other priest, other leader. They had ways of doing it. It was all mental. So when you hear about that, you think that sounds like nonsense. But I read it and I believe that they had something. See what we did, we moved over there and we sent missionaries over, and the missionaries didn't like this idea of using their power to kill people. They didn't kill 'em with a gun. They just said, in so many days you'll be dead. And it wasn't a nice thing to do, but it shows it can be done. And it isn't necessarily a spiritual thing. The human mind, you get surprised with the power.
Speaker 5

sn2-33:09

So you would say that depends on the intensity of whether comes
Speaker 1

sn2-33:14

More alignment of it. Yeah, I don't know what all the faculties were because it never completely read the formula, but I saw that there was enough of it to confirm, and everybody in those islands believed that. I was just reading a piece about it here the other day. The way somebody stole something, they'd get a whole bunch of 'em and line them up and say, well, the man that really stole it when he drinks this milk or whatever they give to him will kill him. And it kills him. It kills the right guy. But because he's frightened, because he's killed other people. And now this is a strange form of magic. I picked this book up. A guy went all over Africa and interviewed every shaman and witch doctor he could find. And they find these, they have a common way of doing things. They're all similar.

sn2-34:12

See? And we think they're inferior in mental capabilities, but they have it. They have it. But it is limited. It is limited to that tribe or that group of people. They're all a little bit different. But anyhow, this is my idea is that it don't have to be that way. We don't have to do these things. It is like saying as soon as you get, you create a gun to protect yourself. So next thing you know, shoot people with it. See a lot of the things that come out as for good have taken and been used for revenge or destruction. Yeah. I
Speaker 4

sn2-34:59

Just had a question about your experience that you had when you became, sorry, could you hear what I had a question about? Your experience? Yeah. What was the question? How much of that, did you have any control of what was happening to you at all? Or was it all just it happened to
Speaker 1

sn2-35:16

You? I didn't have any control. I had a surprise. I had a surprise. In fact, I got a pain in the head. I thought I was dying. It was right in the middle of my head. I was in bed and I thought, boy, I was in Seattle, Washington and my homes in West Virginia, so I'm done. And they're not going to get the body home. They don't have my address back, a place I stay. And so I didn't know I was going unconscious, but I found myself standing, looking out the window. And I went out the window and I arrived at a place, I'll be honest with you, I didn't see any God. In fact, I saw some people, I didn't know them. I saw some people and I was tremendously happy, tremendously exhilarated. And then I got to questioning, what is this? See, maybe it was time to go. But anyhow, I fell. I fell great distance. And when I got conscious, I was back in bed. I'd never got out of bed. See? But I remember walking over to the window, looking through the glass and seeing the cascade mountains and saying, that's where I'm headed. And I went right through the window. I didn't break it either instantly. And were
Speaker 4

sn2-36:48

You still thinking the same way, just your thought process while this experience was happening, was it the same kind of mode thinking you have every day or was it something different? We should repeat that again. Just when you're having this experience, the way your mode of thinking or just your frame of mind, was it much mean? Obviously it would be strange to have the experience just the way you were thinking. Did it seem like it was different at all? Just your everyday thought process? You mean
Speaker 1

sn2-37:19

Was my thinking at that time, effort, right. During the experience I was, it was just happy. That's the only experience I had. It was happy. I remember flying from this hotel in Seattle to the Cascades when I got there was in the snow. But I was convinced I could go and I went and I just was exhilarated. I knew what had happened. I knew that I had left the earth. That was all. And I had a tremendous curiosity to see some of the people on earth. There was nobody up there but me. And then I saw them, they came up over the hill. Hor of them came up. But why? It seemed like I was rejected because I fell through a black space, tremendous black space. And I thought it was oblivion. I thought this is the end, this is the end of the whole story. And when I become conscious, I was in bed. I had never got out of bed. The only thing was the pain in the head was gone, never returned. It seemed like it was strong enough to have caused a stroke.

sn2-38:39

The incident, there's accounts of those things. You can't get real common denominators. They're not quite the same. But I was conscious in both going and when I got back, I was in trauma. I didn't want to live. I had no desire to live and actually didn't want to. I didn't have any choice of it, couldn't just kill myself. But this is what gave me direction, permanent determination. Let's get back there. Let's find out if we can really get back there. And of course, I feel that you don't succeed if you're trying to, you can't do it. Write in a book. I've never put this in a book. I may have mentioned it, but I've never write it in a book because I don't think that's, it would be the same for another person. I've read accounts, they all seem to be somewhat different. Their action. Yeah.
Speaker 4

sn2-39:48

Are there any similarities in this experience to near death experiences if you've read about those?
Speaker 1

sn2-39:55

Yes. Yes. Yeah. I used to listen to them. Somebody had a thing on TV and they had people that I remember. One was a boy that fell out of an airplane at a height, fell on his face, destroyed the front of his face. He was sitting there telling about it, but he lived through it. See? And they'd have a conception of some sort. So I think we're a dual being, I can't, that's the important thing. If we were a monistic being all we are as a body, see. But if there is something that can leave. And of course for years I was pretty, I didn't go out there. I didn't go out there to do that. I went out there to get married. Yeah, I went out and I took a job as a waiter. The girl was working in Boeing aircraft. Her people were millionaires, and I was a bit of a hungry person. I saw nothing wrong with marrying a million dollars, but I found out later she was also a lesbian. You're not allowed to say that word, but this is spiritual work. So I can tell you she's a lesbian.

sn2-41:22

But when I saw the competition, I left. I went down and got me a room and with a Chinese family there, and they had a little hotel and I rented a room. And so I went down the library and I'm trying to get some books on meditation and they'd have too many in the local library that was in Seattle. And so I stayed there, but I would meditate a little bit, think about things. I couldn't get any books. The main things, get something to remind you of philosophy or something like that. Couldn't get 'em out of the library. But it was just, I don't know where the pain come from, but it was my time. That was all. It was my time. And so when I came back, I was very unhappy. In fact, I cried for a week. I cried until I got out of of town.

sn2-42:25

And sooner I got Cleveland less, it bothered me. I stopped at the house. We worked together up there on the atomic submarine. That was the job I had before I went out there. And I stopped at each house, told him what happened. Now see, he was a student also. He took it rather lightly. I was always real serious about these books I read. But he would make, get a membership. And Yoga Nanda for instance, he'd get these guys, he'd get all their literature and he'd read it and then forget about it and go out and get drunk.

sn2-43:07

But he was a good friend. And I was amazed when I stopped there. I never have always thought that women don't talk about spiritual things. I've been around a lot of men or wives, very seldom ever talk about it. But I said to him, I told him what happened. I said, what do you think happened to me? See? And he says, Dick, I don't know. And his wife turned to me and she says, I think you lost your ego. And she hit the nail on the head without the loss of that ego. Nothing happens as we clinging to the physical mind and the physical being. See, and when you lose your ego, you're back to no definitions and information comes to you direct like it hits you in the head. See? So anyhow, little by little, so I'll tell you what happened. Also at the time.

sn2-44:04

There's a little book out there I wrote afterwards, sit down. I went back to working in the same place and it's called the Algen Papers. And in it in the back is a little section called the three books of the absolute. And this was my account of what happened and the effects it had on me. And I'd like to see it happen again. But I just wonder, there's a lot of trauma connected with it. There's a lot of trauma connected with it. For instance, I actually thought I wasn't going to get up off the bed. I thought I was dead when I left. And so consequently, the second time might not be the same. But also the feeling is that it's not impossible that when I do go, I'll go the same route. I'll be back up there looking for somebody that know I can talk to 'em. I guess.
Speaker 4

sn2-45:14

Is that your expectation of
Speaker 1

sn2-45:16

That's what be like, huh? Is that your expectation of what that Oh, I think I died. Oh yes. I'm quite sure of it. The only funny thing was that I came, when I came back in the body, there was no pain. I don't know. I don't know. But I was trying to get a definition of it. I had all the books you read when you get into a real happening, you want to say, Hey, I don't trust myself. I want to get somebody that this has happened to. Where'd he go? Town? You don't know anybody. So I went down. It was nighttime. I don't know what I was doing.

sn2-45:56

I wanted to go off a bridge. I wanted to kill myself, and I couldn't find any bridges. The one bridge that I came out of Seattle was a floating bridge. And so I didn't want to jump off of that one. But finally I thought maybe I should hunt a minister up. Of course, I was born and raised a Catholic, so it was dark, getting darker at nighttime. And I thought, I want to talk to somebody and see if they've heard of accounts like this thing had happened to me and what's happened? What's going to happen as a result, and knocked on the door and I'm still got tears running down my face. I'm still weeping. I guess this guy thought that I'd lost my lover or something as the reason I was crying big. Got about 30, 35, well fed. You get bellies on him and he is looking down and scoring. When he's taller than me, he is looking at me very.

=== File sn3 ===
Time: 46:49

Speaker 1

sn3-00:01

He saying, "What can I do for you?" And I looked around him, I said, "Don't you have older priests in here?" I wanted to get somebody that had some sense. I didn't think this fellow knew anything, and he didn't. He said, "Well, what's wrong with you?" Gruff like a sergeant. And I said, "Well, I've had something happen to me and I want to know how to handle it." And he said, "How long has it been since you've been to confession?" And that was one time in my life I wished I had a gun.

sn3-00:35

I thought, this guy is pretending to be helpful to humanity and here's a chance. And he's wanting me to confession's, going to free all of my troubles up. See, I don't commit sins. I don't commit sins. I don't think anybody commits sins. We all do the best we can. I don't think it's nice to kill each other. But nevertheless, I don't believe it. This sin stuff causes guilt. I just myself as all was hurting. It wasn't because I committed any sins. It's because I had an experience. I couldn't adapt. That's what was going on. I just couldn't adapt. I got on a bus and got out and every 10 miles brought me back to the old self. See, by the time I got to Cleveland, I was back to my old self. I wasn't upset. But from this, I believe, I think from this, because of the desire to look for and find the possibility of human adaptation or the human experimentation with healing or something of that sort, I think that experience I had accelerated it helped it see, yeah.
Speaker 2

sn3-01:59

Mr. Rose, how do you discern between genuine spiritual insight and an experience brought on by mind trying to escape from trauma like out the woods for a month or two and the very aus your lifestyle and you have an experience. How do you discern between that being a genuine experience and just some part of you trying to escape from say, well, we'll satisfying G experience, we'll create it and we'll be happy. How do you draw the line between
Speaker 1

sn3-02:26

The same way? If you're in love with the girl and you knew you can't trust her, but you got to take her word sooner or later. See, and that's the same way there. As you move, it is an adventure. You move in and hope that the best happens. That's all. It's referring down to the fact that possibly it couldn't happen again or it'd have the power to cause it to happen again or something.
Speaker 2

sn3-02:58

I'm thinking more of people who have specific practices that they're very austere, very harsh on themselves. And a lot of times we'll hear about especially Zen tradition, people doing nothing but sitting up on top of cold rocks on top of mountains for years and years and years. And they'll have an experience. And when you're reading these accounts, it's very difficult to tell whether or not it's just something that some part of their mind can just created to make them think they were language. They get off the rock
Speaker 1

sn3-03:33

If you move in the right direction. What that is, if you go out by yourself, that's what they were told to do. Now the American Indian did that too. When he reached a certain age, he was sent alone into the woods to get his connection. I don't know, in other words, guardian, angel or what it was. But if you get into that history, the same thing in the people in Australia. I don't know what they're called natives. They also go through a period of looking for their big brother and their big brother's like a guardian angel. And when they do something, they wait until they hear it. Their ear, yeah, strike. That's the way they catch the rabbits and everything. You always wait for the big brother to tell 'em how to do it. But I think that the number one, I think you're protected as long as you don't, you're not using that to hurt somebody. I think you're protected. I don't say it's going to repeat itself, but this thing, the going out on the mountaintop is necessary for a person to, you're talking to your inner self, you might say and say, I am not going to go down and play games with mankind anymore until I learn what I want to know from life. And that determination is what brings the information to you.

sn3-04:57

There's no step-by-step explanation of how it happens in steps. No, the people send these people out on the mountaintops. No. That's the only way to do it. See, and the American Indian seemed to sense it too. Seemingly he went out alone and when maybe a dagger and if a bear came along, he had either talked to the bear to convinced him not to hurt him or he had to fight. See, but that tension, putting the tension on the mind, see, and it seems to bring forth results. Now the danger is of course, if you put too much tension on your mind, the reading, you might say that the reading was caused by necessary wishful, hopeful thinking. Let's hurry up and get this over with. Don't kill me. Get me. Just give me any message and I'll go back with a messaging, start planting beans or something. Enter the elite life stream.
Speaker 2

sn3-05:54

So you think that the committee, a very strong commitment itself is some of the protection that you're going to?
Speaker 1

sn3-06:00

Sure. This is the whole thing with anything you do. I don't care if it's financial or what, you have to put your whole self into it. If you go out at halfway, nothing happens. And that's the reason the Indians did it when the boy was young, he wasn't married yet. You cannot do much spiritual work after you get married because there's negative forces that are in that. The baby is hungry and you've got to go out and hunt something for to eat and that sort of thing. There's a different pattern for it. So consequently, I feel that most of the people that you hear about were sent out by Zen teachers or the yogis in Asia. They were single people. They were single people.
Speaker 3

sn3-06:54

How long did it take you before you were okay
Speaker 1

sn3-06:55

With living again? No, I can't hear you. How long did it
Speaker 3

sn3-06:59

Take you before you were okay with living again after your experience with what? Okay with living again, you didn't want,
Speaker 1

sn3-07:09

Oh, how long did it take me? By the time I got back to Cleveland, I was back in touch with the minds of the people. Although I didn't particularly care to live. I didn't care to live. I sat down, like I said, I sat, I got some paper and I started writing. And that was the three books of the ab, because I wanted to get everything that I had seen or experienced in the changes that occurred. I thought it was worth doing. And I still read it every once in a while and things changed. The whole physical world changed to a great extent in the process. There was a phase that I went to, which things ebbed and flowed and material things would be liquid and that sort of thing.

sn3-08:18

Of course, after I got back there and got distracted by working in the plant again. But I'm glad I wrote it down because it bugs me. Every time I read it, it takes me back. I go back there and I can remember the sensations and the pain, tremend amount of pain with it. I didn't think I'd get back and I didn't. All you can do is talk about it, but I don't know if you know this or not, but there's a group that hangs around me, a group of people, and I'm from near Wheeling, West Virginia. And this is good information for people that wanted to live a certain way. And we have isolation centers, we have cabins, and that's boys built them themselves. Guys that come down there and build a cabin and want to go in isolation and some of 'em would need for 30 days. And this helps the mentality. It's not, what do you call it, narcissism or anything like that. It's the mind gets brighter, much brighter, and they're conviction that they're not wasting their time. It gets more valid. See, and this is reasonably down through history, I think this is what happened. You couldn't stay in the marketplace. You had to get out of town and whoever advised you, the teacher or whatever would say, go out and don't come back until you know something.

sn3-10:16

So there's things that you can challenge. And I don't like to explain too many of 'em because number one, I don't think you'd believe it. And the other thing is I have no way of even outlining what state of mind I was in when these things happened. I'm talking about healing somebody or taking a pain out of and to do that, I could see it. Before I did that, I could see the pain. Now you might think I'm as a T tall tale, but I had a girl that came in from Providence, Rhode Island, and we'd had a group of people over there. I was giving lectures over at Carver and some of those places. I met her at Providence, Rhode Island, a lecture I was giving. And she walked up to me and told me she had the same name I had with was no relation, but we had the same last name.

sn3-11:25

And next thing I know, she moved to Pittsburgh, so she'd be closer to our center in back of wheeling. See? And so she came down one time and we sat just like in meditation. We sat about five feet away from each other facing each other. And I saw him through her body, I could see through her body, and it looked like she had a string of rosary beads in this me across her chest and down below there was a large black area. And so I told her, I said, a strange, I see something like beads pulled across your chest.

sn3-12:17

And I said, in your pelvic area, there's just large part of section of blackness. And she said, well, I don't feel ill or anything, but she says, I'm having lung trouble or coughing or something. And she says, before I come down from Pittsburgh, I had some x-rays run, so I'll go back up and see if I can get them. And she went back up and got the x-rays. And here was the diagnosis that she had granuloma a string of granuloma and the direction, I don't know how it spoken, but it was on a slanted direction across the pressed, actually as I described it, see, well, but there was nothing said about this dark area. See, but when she got ready to have a child, she found out why she had, I forget what they call the thing. It's adherence of the womb to the backbone.

sn3-13:09

See, this isn't once, this is very frequent. These things can happen. And it is just, for instance, it's not nice for me to tell you even I have this superstition, maybe I'm bragging. I don't want to brag. See, if I brag, the power's going to be taken away because I'll be egotistical. It won't be taken away. I'll maybe mess it up by focusing on myself and making myself the important thing instead of the power itself. See, and I could give you many things like that that happened. And there's something, there's a realization that can occur in the mind of a person that will actually wipe them out. And it just seems like, well, you can see it coming. I think of your psychic. You could see it coming and when it hits a person, they hit the ground. And this happened very early in the group. I'll tell you, there's a man here that was sitting there at the time. Where's Gie?
Speaker 3

sn3-14:31

He's
Speaker 1

sn3-14:31

Out the, yeah, Augie. Yes. I've just said you're the only guy that's here from the first sitting we had with John mascara. And I was talking about the mind picking up. This is messages. Her mind picked it up too. See,
Speaker 4

sn3-14:55

Talking about Jane Slay.
Speaker 1

sn3-14:56

Yeah, yeah. Her husband was there. There were young married couples and MAs, Garcia's wife was there. And we were seeing what we call rapport session. And the rapport session is you sit in silence is almost like a, you might say a Quaker sitting. You don't talk, but things start to generate. And then after a while you can see them and sometimes they're shape of a human and sometimes they're drift slow. And sometimes you move very fast over your heads. And when I can tell by where they're going, who they're going to hit, so I point and they hit and well, this girl came in, come down, her husband would come in and sit with him and she thought we were a bunch of idiots. It didn't make sense to her so she could stay out in the kitchen and make coffee and drink the coffee and don't know why.

sn3-15:52

But we had this fellow was telling you about it. His wife was sitting there also and his name was mascara. And this thing would circle the top of the heads over the people. And when they didn't see it, I don't think any of 'em see it, but I'd see it and I'd point and to let the fellow know it was happening. His eyeballs got real big when it hits him, they get astonished. But at the same time, this girl from the kitchen walked in. She walked in and I had heard her tingling with the sugar cup and put sugar in her coffee. And I said, oh, you've been into the Sugar Bowl, just to have something to say more or less put her at ease. And we wanted her to sit there too. And when I said that, she went right down to the floor, she fell face force onto the floor and she wept for two hours and looked up at her husband and she saw him as an unreality. She's on her knees and her head, her head on the floor. And she looked up at him and said, I see you, but I know you're not there.

sn3-17:02

And she said to him, I forget what it was, but the gist of it was that she knew he was there, but he wasn't substantial to her. And he came to me afterwards, we went out in the kitchen and things all over and he said, Hey, where does this leave me? And I said, oh, don't worry about it. But she was two hours in that position and she had, it's not the great experience and being one with one with the God or one with the truth or whatever you want to call it, there's a secondary thing. But she lost her ego. She lost her ego. And I left her go because there's another, in this thing of experiences, there's different levels. Some of them are just hunches. Then there's in Roman Maharshi list them. The two main ones is Alati. And Alati is the equivalent of dropping a bucket down into the well and pulling it up with water. And when that's occur, you become like a drop of water in the ocean. You lose your identity, but you never ceased to be a drop.

sn3-18:44

And this is a complete experience when you supposedly know all about whether there is a God, whether there's a helpful hand, whatever it is. This is the end of your spiritual search. You're one with God, meaning the drop is one with the ocean. And she had hit the lower one. What she was doing, she had the valla, she was overwhelmed. She was overwhelmed by the importance of what she saw, but she wasn't, hadn't gone. I was trying to get her to go clear over to where she'd be one with what we consider God or the total answer that you can get involved living in this physical body. So I left her Guan for a while and then I had to pulled a chair over because she was on her knees and her head was on the floor. So I pulled her chair over and talked to her and she looked it up at her husband, told her.

sn3-19:49

That's when she said, you don't exist. I see you there. But in other words, everyone in that room was an illusion In the room was she had reached reality, real reality. Well, the sad part about it was when it was all over, she come over to me and kept thanking me and she says, oh, Ms. Rose, I don't know how to thank you. I said, you're not supposed to thank me. I said, help somebody else. This is the rule. You don't go up PO on the back, you just help somebody else. I will. She says, I will. She never come to another meeting. So she left town. But that don't matter. It doesn't matter what happened, whether she picked it up or not. But there were instances, there were quite a few instances of people that got, but still, you got to go back eventually to get a job, earn some money and maybe even raise some kids that's been in the cards.

sn3-20:56

So her and her husband both dropped out of the group. They separated in fact. But I think that if you want something, go for it. But all you have to do research. But I mean you have to, like some people who will clear over to Asia, they figure somebody's got a system over there. They go over and turn over there possibly. There are people there, but it isn't done necessarily by anybody. It's done by yourself. It is total identification of the projects. Like you say you want to build a house and you've got some lumber and you got to hammer and some nails, you got to start and you don't do very good because you're not a carpenter. But hang in there, you'll be a carpenter. See, we know that. But everybody just hang in there. Whatever you want out of life, you can have it. If you're not too egotistical when you play the ego, you don't move. See, when you brag, you don't move. You just quietly except. But who was, it said that give us the wisdom of the difference. Serenity prayer. Huh? It's called the Serenity prayer. The what? The serenity prayer. Right? Right. Yes.
Speaker 3

sn3-22:33

Did she see when she all the other people village room or was she
Speaker 1

sn3-22:43

Seeing them as part of the ocean?

sn3-22:46

The girl on the floor? No, no. She saw them as not important, not important at all. She saw them. She saw him. And she said that to him when he came out out of the room later and he said, where does this leave me? He thought the way she acted, she wouldn't have any parts of it. But that isn't true either. That isn't true. Because I think if you're not capable of friendship, you're not capable of dealing with the truth. And I don't think anybody should ever, if you have something good happens to you, don't turn against your husband or your family or anything like that is not necessary. See, in fact, it might be nice if you have children or something and they see that such can happen. See, and I know I had three children and one of them, one girl never paid any attention to it. But the other girl was convinced, she was convinced that what had happened to me, because kids have an intuition too. They don't know how to put the name it. I use the words, but it is a magical game to me. It's a wonderful magical game.

sn3-24:23

There's no way, if you say you want to heal somebody, what are you going to do if I get a book and read it? No, you just focus your mind on it and tell somebody, like I said, you look at somebody, you think they have a headache, you said to them, Hey, I think you've got a headache. They say, I don't have a headache. Don't get upset. Don't get upset. You missed. That's all. But your mind is in that inclination. Your mind is inclined. And I've often, we used to have what we call a AU with down there, and there'd be 50 people there. And I'd walk through and point at them and tell them where their pain was. And then if they said Yes, I got a pain, then I'd go up and take it away. And funny thing was that nobody made a great fuss over it. They got used to it. And it was just fun. It was really fun.

sn3-25:22

Of course, I don't really know what happened to the people, but she left that part of the country and went down to Texas and been there ever since. So I don't know. I don't know what, whether she's trying to do something with her life or not. But I think it's the most important thing is to know that someone else has to be helped someone else. And if you make a mistake, that's all right. But you'll get better. It's almost like a sharpening of the pencil. You'll get better, you'll know. But of course, I don't today, I don't, 20 years ago I was taking headaches away. I'm not too keen about taking headaches away unless somebody I bump into somebody that's really having a bad headache or something. It seems like I'm always afraid it look like showing off and we don't want to get into that. Yeah. Did you have any
Speaker 5

sn3-26:32

Psychic experiences like this before you had your day experience where you were life, anything you observed in any psychic? Would you
Speaker 1

sn3-26:41

Survive? But always the attitude should always not be, I'm going to do this. Let's see if something can happen. That's what I say. When we get a group of people together, I'll say, let's get together and see if something happens. But don't be proud that you caused it to happen. And if you aren't proud, it'll happen more often. See, but there's something about negativity or something negative about these forces. Don't want a fool with somebody that's bragging about it because I know I'm not capable doing it. I'm just people walking in when something happens. It is a coincidence of being there and the party being in the right mood, the right condition, and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 5

sn3-27:36

In your writings, you talk about a book by preacher called Constant Consciousness. Yeah. And did you find any similarities in the people in that book, their experiences? Were there any common denominators between your experience?
Speaker 1

sn3-27:50

We didn't all have the same type. Some, in fact, I don't remember of any of 'em having the complete experience. And like I said, we become one with God, one with the ocean, the drop one with the ocean. Most of them were healings. Small things, impressions, realizations seeing more clearly. And that scene more clearly deepens their faith in the possibilities of things that can happen in the future. And basically, I don't know any limit. I don't know limit any limit. I used to know I could win 600 to a thousand dollars in an evening, played poker, but I quit and I didn't see through the cards. I asked for 'em and he came. I vocally asked for them and he come. They wanted to shoot me. Some of the guys thought I was reading back in the text. So you
Speaker 2

sn3-28:56

Said after your experience, that was the end of your path. You didn't have to learn anymore. Is that right? That was the end of your search.
Speaker 1

sn3-29:08

Well, no, it wasn't the end of my search. It wasn't end of my search. I had reasons to intensify. In fact, my thoughts came back to my family then see, and I thought, like I said, had this thing, I wrote for three books, the absolute, absolute. And I showed it to my oldest daughter. She was a freshman down in Morgantown University. I dunno, I think it's WVU U they call it. And she was home on a vacation. And so I gave her the paper and let her read it. I went back in the room and she was looking straight ahead and it was laying on her knees. And I just picked it up and eased it away from her. Didn't say anything. A couple days later I said, what'd you think of that? That section of the Algin paper is what it turned out to be later. And she looked up at me rather seriously. And she says, dad, I know that you are God and
Speaker 3

sn3-30:28

I am also weak.
Speaker 1

sn3-30:42

Yes. The transition
Speaker 4

sn3-30:46

Is the transition to inside that occur always happen, always fast, or can it happen gradually?
Speaker 1

sn3-30:59

Transmission. These things that I discussed were transmissions. In other words, if you look into somebody through somebody's body and affect that body, that's a transmission of energy.
Speaker 4

sn3-31:14

I'm talking more or less insight or like you said, for revelations. When you say the big one or the one that counts the most or whatever, does that always happen fast or does it sort of like you just look bad?
Speaker 1

sn3-31:40

You mean this acceptance, receiving of the power, understanding the understanding. Oh, I think it comes to you in a flash, but you have to analyze to realize how deeply the gift is, what the substance of it is. It is a very light feeling. Very light feeling. And it is happiness because you feel that's it. You've discovered it, you've projected it. One point is that, huh?
Speaker 4

sn3-32:19

Can you reach a point in which that point maintains always all the time?
Speaker 1

sn3-32:25

No, no, no. You got to get that nickel for Kroger's and you got to be human at times. So it isn't there every moment of the day. It's, it's almost like when two or more are gathered together in my name, I'm in their midst. Did you ever hear that? That's real? Did you ever hear that? That's in the Bible? I think Christ supposedly said it. And this was what miracles he performed were much more frequent in my estimation, when he had apostles, 12 men with him. And that was like a battery of energy. See? So things were more likely to happen. But when he was a single fellow, he was a wise child, but he wasn't heal anybody. See? So I think it's almost physical. It's an almost physical thing. It's invisible. You can't see it until your eyes or your mind is able to pick it up to your mind.

sn3-33:51

But the whole thing is that this stuff passes by. The thing is to get a few people together, if you like to experiment, give a few people to do it. Unselfishly don't, don't think you're going to get rich off of it or anything. Get in the movies or anything like that, don't happen. But there's power in the assembly of people for a common purpose. They all have the same purpose. And I use statements. I can't say anything else. It's the way you hold your head. And other than that, I can't define it. I can't say to the left or the right, that sort of thing. Yeah. Does the enlightenment experience
Speaker 6

sn3-34:52

Lead you with a life that is what everybody else is going through, but you'll never be satisfied?
Speaker 1

sn3-35:01

Satisfied. I'm satisfied. How can you do? Huh? How can you do? Well, I don't expect to be a know everything or to do everything. These little things that happened in my estimation are, what do you call it? Convincing items that manifest that I'm on the right track and that I have touched the button. I've got the button that can cause things to happen. See, but I don't think we should run around exercising that button, except when there's a time may come. That's all. It's good to do it so that you can know you can do it, but I don't believe it. If you can help people sometimes some people can't be helped to. You try to help them.
Speaker 6

sn3-36:02

The ups and downs that are delusionary.
Speaker 1

sn3-36:08

No, no. There's some, I had a case here. In other words, somebody calls on me. I always go, I always try to help. And this is just recently, just a few months back, I had a girl that was a neighbor in the neighborhood where we lived. They got ahold of my wife and found out that I could hypnotize people. So wanted to know she was drinking booze, she was killing herself, drinking. She'd get drunk and fight with her boyfriend and he'd break her nose and her face looked like a prize fighter's face. So I said, yeah, I'll come down.

sn3-36:49

And I went down and I hypnotized her and told her she'd be free of alcohol and removed. Got up and left. And her father was there and he says, well, every needy again, we'll call you. She got killed. And a week later she got killed week later by her husband. But I told the family, I said that she should be hypnotized at least once a week to keep this protection. She didn't drink for the whole week. Between the time I hypnotized her, she got killed. But then on the last day, I don't know exactly what day it was now, she went up and started cursing him and he took a gun and killed her. But she still, she got drunk that day. But that was So sometimes you have to stay with 'em. Yeah. He was
Speaker 5

sn3-37:50

Asking about earlier about your search. Now that you've had this experience, what do you now still strive or caring or what do you feel is in lead now?
Speaker 1

sn3-38:02

Well, I strive to see if I can get into towns like Raleigh and Chapel Hill and talk to some people. That's pretty much your lot people. Is
Speaker 5

sn3-38:14

That your main conviction now? Or do you feel like your stuff is you need to learn yourself still?
Speaker 1

sn3-38:21

I don't think, I don't expect to learn anything. I don't expect to learn anything. I do expect that it can be accelerated. That these things that when you're able to do them, they can be accelerated and they can have a greater scope. But I don't particularly want a greater scope unless it would be that I could heal somebody faster or heal them of a greater disease. And the whole thing is I am not dedicated to healing. I'm not that I'll do it because I have the gift for it, and I absolutely do not charge. I mean, if people have tried to pay me, then that kills it. That's my superstition. You become a huckster and your powers fail because you get greedy. You want to raise the rates after a while. See,
Speaker 4

sn3-39:14

I think what he's asking though is do you think you have any more stages of spiritual development that you have to go through?
Speaker 1

sn3-39:21

I really can't define how spiritual I am. I don't feel like a spiritual person. I don't feel like, I just feel that I get lucky at times and I know when to point see. I know when to point. And sometimes that's all it takes to knock a person off their feet. Well, that's you get them searching and give 'em a suggestion. Quit drinking, do this. But my next step will be to leave. And I don't know how that'll come about and it doesn't matter. But I feel that I've got consciousness. I think I'll have more consciousness. I won't have to worry about entering into an oblivion period. See, I have to wait 10,000 years to wake up. But that's my conviction there.
Speaker 5

sn3-40:24

But you don't really have any more desire to, or a yearning
Speaker 1

sn3-40:27

To learn. I never did. I never did. It has to come. It has to come and I have to run into it. See, it is like this girl that came down and another fellow, it was ready to hit him, and for some reason it left and hit her. I mean, these things are visible. A lot of this stuff is visible. See, and I don't go out looking for people, but I think I feel more worthy of my, if I am capable of doing something, if I can help somebody, see, and not only that, but by using the system that I do, it encourages them to see if they can't do it. See, now, of course, I'm going to tell you something. There's a factor I haven't touched on. And that is if you want to succeed, you remain celibate.

sn3-41:22

Nothing much will happen unless you're celibate. And celibacy brings power, a tremendous power in that field. See, we get distracted. There's nothing. Distract us more and it will send you down. Digging foundations, building houses real fast and buying diapers. See, of course, I had a family. I raised a family, but I ain't saying I made the best husband because I always kept it on the back burner. I remained celibate through my marriage. In other words, not a hundred percent, but set a time period because it takes your energy. It is just like a person wants to be a prize fighter. They're all advised to be celibate. That's what I've understand. They're all advised to be celibate. It takes an exceptional amount of energy to go through that routine. But the other thing too is that this, while under celibate, you'll not be attacked by entities. This can happen. We're dealing with things we can't see. There are such things as entities and they have other use for the bodies in there was people in sex. People are tempted, so to speak, and everybody knows it. There's a time maybe they don't think about it. And all at once, they do think about it in the urge. See? But by studying celibacy, you call the shots. You don't let it happen. When the impulse comes see,

sn3-43:42

Well, it's quite enough, we could hold a seance. Right? Get 'em all in a circle.
Speaker 4

sn3-43:47

So the purpose of celibacy is not only to clear the mind, but there's more to it in that
Speaker 1

sn3-43:54

The power. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. This is knowledge, not just something that's popped up, but there's a tremendous lot of opposition. For instance, in the field of psychology, they ridiculed immediately. And this whole human race seems to be wanting to lose any spiritual direction at all. The words going out to attack the teachers, to attack the children sexually. In other words, I dunno if you've seen these documents, but their papers went out in West Virginia. I know where they were suggesting that the teachers should masturbate the children to get them practiced. And this is, it also says in the Bible, if a man scandalizes a child by Ropa, rock around his neck and throw him in the ocean. And that's my feeling too. That should be done. I don't know what's coming over the human race, but there's a tremendous disease in my estimation. Children are saints. Babies are saints. Nobody should ever pollute them. And when that kind of stuff comes on, our psychological system is shot. It is evil. It's an enemy then.
Speaker 3

sn3-45:33

Yeah.
Speaker 6

sn3-45:34

Could you say something more about the entities that you were talking about?
Speaker 1

sn3-45:38

Energy. The entities. Entities. You say something more about that. Well, if you want to meet some of 'em, you can meet them. Some of them are rather violent, possessed people have them or possessed people have them.
Speaker 5

sn3-46:07

Is it something that's kind of, you say it's inside of you, were totally separate from you.
Speaker 1

sn3-46:12

What
Speaker 5

sn3-46:12

Did you say? It's something these things are that
Speaker 1

sn3-46:16

Are inside of you or totally separate. They're not. You keep 'em outside if you can. They're not inside of you, but they attack the inside of you to get you to do certain acts that will cause bloodshed or will cause the loss of body fluids or something of that, which I think is there some contact there in energy, the business of energy, you want to get some stuff on that and read it.

=== File sn4 ===
Time: 24:46

Speaker 1

sn4-00:01

Some stuff on that and read it. If you just hear it from a single source, it might, first inclination may negate things, but there's a thing called exorcism, and it's not just a word. It is actually a function. It's actually a function that people sometimes get taken. Of course, they made a movie about it here while back. That was nonsense. That was a hodgepodge. You remember that movie?
Speaker 2

sn4-00:31

Yes.
Speaker 1

sn4-00:32

Yeah. Well, that actually happened. That actually happened. I think it was in Washington DC where it started. And this child was possessed. The movie was a little girl, but the producers of the movie wanted to make it more obscene. It was a boy, and it didn't happen that way. I thought that was a low trick to show this stuff that imaginations, whoever produced it, it was the imagination of what possession would do to a person. They had this little girl doing all these common things, but it was a boy. And was it Batty, Bady or Batty? The guy that wrote, huh? Blatty. Yeah. Wrote the book. But what happened?

sn4-01:32

This little boy had gotten possessed and they had a minister. This part of it happened in dc Minister came over and he said, well, I'll take care of it. He says, I'll say some prayers and I'll sleep in the same bed with the boys. So he seemed to get thrown out of bed with them. Strange things were happening. He got thrown out, the minister got thrown out on the floor. And so the mother came in one day, and when the boy was being possessed and spoke to her sister who was dead, it seemed that her sister, she had the child, her sister coming over here over there to her house and funneling the kid. The sister died and her sister, the mother's sister was still coming back. That was the reason the kid was being attacked. And the mother actually spoke out loud and said, whatever her name was, Amy, for the love of God, get out of here.

sn4-02:42

Leave the boy alone. See, she sensed where it was coming from, so she thought she'd better get, some people could exercise the kid, and so they took the boy clear out to Kansas or one of those places where there was a capish and monastery because the priest had the solution. They've got an exorcist method in their book, how to do it. And so this wasn't in the movie, I don't think it was. They got the boy between a couple of the priests and was talking to him and they were reading out of this, what was it, witches Hammer? Yeah, mal Malca, yeah.

sn4-03:42

And he was going through this book and reading the formula for getting rid of the demon. See? And of course, the boy walked up. The boy had been kicking him and that sort of thing too. But the boy walked up and touched his book with his finger, and the book just inated into confetti and trickled down to the floor. And they knew then they had something real powerful, real strong, and they stayed with him. I don't know what really ever happened, whether they got him clear, because that was just one big article in the Washington DC paper. I never found out. But Blatty wrote a book after that. Vlady, he wasn't in the scene. He just turned out to be the author. He must've picked up.
Speaker 3

sn4-04:40

He was a student in Georgetown University. Heard about the Holton area from one of the professors at Georgetown University who was involved in theism. Supposedly he wasn't supposed to write about it. Part of the deal was that if the guy told him the story, he wouldn't write
Speaker 1

sn4-04:58

About it. Yeah, they made a movie out of it. It was a morbid disgusting thing. It was nothing like it really happened. They put a little girl and it wasn't a girl, it was a boy. It was a boy that was possessed. But I guess if producers in Hollywood thought it would be morbid if they had a little girl being possessed. But these things, what I say, there's value to those spiritual capacities. People can move out. And they claimed that, and they wrote it up that the demon had killed the priest. The thing is that there's a procedure to follow, and this is a reason. Anybody that wants to get into spiritual work should know it, that if you're on dealing with dangerous stuff, you have to remain celibate and they cannot touch you. There's a book, if you can get ahold of, you want to read something on This is valid material because it was written back in the early days of the European history, it was Ben Venuto cini.

sn4-06:05

Now, this is in almost every library. Not many people buy it because not many people hear about it. But Ben Venuto Cini went with, he was a silversmith of something and he got a priest and another fellow, and they went down in the coliseum in Rome. And at that time, the coliseum was just a ruin cent. It was for some reason, they never really had a big roof over the place, but they went down for the purpose of drawing down a demon, and they had a formula for it. So they went through this formula and they drew a pentagram on the floor, and they stood within that because as long as they stayed within that pentagram, these entities couldn't get physically grab them or frighten them.

sn4-06:58

So I don't know what the procedure was, but the entities appeared and said they filled the coliseum, the explanation of what went on. And the priest was after gold of all things. That's what he wanted. He wanted them to help him find gold. Ben Vanda, she was a silversmith. He had a girl that he had seen. He didn't even know her name. He wanted her see. And there was a third party, I forget what he wanted, but the entity spoke to both of them. And they told Cini, he said, if you want that, you'll have it. The girl will be yours within 30 days. He didn't even know her name, but they said, well, you must come back tomorrow and bring a virgin boy. If you read this stuff in the literature, you think back there. These people were aware of stuff. They had been tinkering with this stuff and saw it. They were tempting that entity with an innocent little kid. See? Well, they brought the kid out and actually the kid became hysterical and the entities moved in as if they were going to put their hands on the child. See? And they got rid of, they backed them off Affinity. And so it's a foul smelling thing, and they throw it in on the charcoal and it caused this fme. And they said it drove them back. But anyhow, cini, he was back in town someplace. This girl came right up to him.

sn4-08:43

He didn't even, I don't know if he even knew her name. He might've, but she came and hunted him up. So I want to say about the power and self-control will and that sort of thing. You never know. And there's things people do today, for instance, dope is a bad thing for you. Put yourself in a position with dope in which things can get inside your body, and that's rough. And they go crazy. And what happens? They don't say they're possessed. Some of them, I'd say a lot of 'em are possessed, overdose. Guys that overdose, they put 'em in, what do you call it? A room with mattresses on all the walls and let 'em beat their head on against the walls. That's all. They don't find any real cure. They're immune even to medicine unless they get enough, something heavy to knock 'em out. But this is, we all should do research in this stuff. There's a tremendous, a lot of information available and some of these people that spent their lives studying it and maybe fasting and all this came up with knowledge and they wrote it down. Then they had a book for, it was called The Mal Car was written in Latin.

sn4-10:07

I think, of course, that there's, I think we have just as many entities they had then on. Now that we don't have any trouble with them because we surrender to 'em, we don't fight. Yeah.
Speaker 4

sn4-10:25

You mentioned things like this, and there's a skeptical side of me that has always been skeptical about these things, and I wonder, since you've got such a rational approach to everything else, how do you screen out the FL artists and the wild stories from the things that you actually believe?
Speaker 1

sn4-10:44

I think you have to have a little intuition or maybe a lot of intuition. And of course, again, where's your intuition come from? Singularity of the mental processes. See, and I think that, for instance, if you get rabid and your big aim in life is just to get another girlfriend. See, you don't have much intuition. In other words, you'll be a joyous animal having a hell of a lot of fun. See? But if you can get that serious thing, you can move away from people. And another thing too, a lot of people that you just meet accidentally and you get close to 'em, you're not, they're evil. You'll notice as soon as you get close to 'em.
Speaker 3

sn4-11:41

Yeah. Do you
Speaker 4

sn4-11:43

Yourself believe in at heaven or hell, like normally talk about in church, I guess, are you going to go to one or the other place after you
Speaker 1

sn4-11:53

Die? Or angels or demons? What do you mean? These things from down below and the angels from Buffalo, they like two. Do you have any choice of the gate in heaven or hell after you die, or, oh, I don't think we have any choice. I don't think we have any choice. I think what it is, I think that there's possibly, if that lifestyle is in existence where people, these entities were just parasites. They possibly are very discarnate humans, that's all. And after they're dead, they come back and they want to handle the same type of people that they went after when they're alive.

sn4-12:32

I can see that it's possible that everybody don't meet oblivion when they die. Perhaps everybody. Everybody, they go through it and that's the end. You don't hear any more from 'em. But then there's a possibility that people after their dead return to pick up that energy. We used talking about Gia for a little while ago. Gio said that in the time of war, there were millions of souls being released from their body, and that energy formed a matrix of wisdom. Their information those people had was available. But at the same time, you got a tremendous amount of people who are coming hunting for sexual energy, people who are of sexual intent, because that's what the game they played on life in lifetime. See? So naturally there's automatically, I don't go for this thing called sin. I think there's mistakes. I think that if you go certain places in the country, it's a beautiful place. But here's poison ivy. If you don't know it, you get it. That's all you come home with, bumps all over you, and sex is a beautiful thing. But if you get syphilis, you're going to come home with bumps all over, you see?

sn4-14:12

But this seems to be an element that these entities that, well, there's a case, your mind in many pieces, if can remember these things, and you get in the library, you'll get the guy that makes books, the manufacturer, the publisher. This is a tremendous book about a guy that he was a psych psychiatrist and he had people in, he was married. But there was evidence, as I read, what happened that these people were possessed. He had a girl was possessed, see me, he said she was very pretty and she'd periodically throw a fit. It took five policemen to hold her down. He said she was just five feet high, no, great strength. But when she got into that possession, she had the strength of five policemen and four of 'em didn't dare come. You had to have five of 'em, one to hold every leg and every arm, and then somebody to put the needle in. He was that strong. And he threw her.

sn4-15:31

Well, at that time, they were getting voices of things that were causing her epilepsy, or whatever you want to call it, seizures she had, and he got voices, and he copied these on, recorded it, and they come out and told that they really wanted a sexual relationship with certain, one of 'em wanted a baby, wanted to take a baby with some young girl had, I don't know if they meant to kill the baby or take it sold someplace, or just to possess it while it was available. Just get in its body while it's living. The result is the baby goes into a fit. But anyhow, he mentioned several times in talking about this red-haired girl that she was very beautiful.

sn4-16:30

Then he shifted and he starts the next chapter. No longer mentions her, but he felt compelled toward the end of the book, always said in regards to the girl that was possessed, I had to quit the practicing or helping her because his wife had got into trouble. He didn't say what the trouble was. And he said he had to cut his practice down so he could stay home with his wife. And she died. The girl died because he couldn't keep dope on her, keep sedating her. When I read it, I told some of the fellows what happened. What I figure happened was that he had intercourse with the girl and then went home and had intercourse with his wife. So now you've got two women possessed. See? And with that, he didn't bother to get back to the little red-haired girl. This was, I thought, a tremendous, very honest description by a psychiatrist of possession. He would record voices that came through her and they would identify, some of 'em were men's voices, and they would tell which people they wanted. And one of 'em said, I don't want her. I want the baby. I thought to myself, if this is evidential, we're neglecting something. We're really neglecting finding a method of identifying these things and then stop in contact. Just don't let people get too close to 'em. That's all. But that's mind. In many pieces, I forget the name, the guy, the author was the doctor. So there's more stuff than we have dreamed about, and it causes a method of conduct. And that's the reason that if you're on a spiritual path, whatever you do, you'd be celibate. Yeah.
Speaker 4

sn4-18:42

You were talking about intuition and how important that is. And Fred, where you're talking about experimenting with SP cards, intuition, is there anything that you can recommend to help just
Speaker 1

sn4-18:53

Prep exercises with your intuition or help develop your intuition? Your intuition is simultaneously develops with purity simultaneously. The thing is, it is a perception thing. Just like I said, if you allow yourself to, you may be able to look at somebody and see an ulcer in their stomach or a headache in their head, see, but if you're dissipating, that won't happen. It just won't happen. We have to study ways and means of expanding our intuition. We have to welcome it with happiness when it comes across and gives us something. See what I mean? And take that mood toward it. If you're going to have to tell me you're going to have to come down to the farm where we can take a week or two and talk about this stuff, incident. We don't run a racket. We don't charge people just happy to have 'em. And you see, right now, something's happening. Some of you will feel it, and if they were sitting in the proper order, you would have what we call rapport, and there would even be possibly phenomena occur because you can pick it, you can hear it, see when everybody's silent at the same time. I can see that the same thing as the thoughts are temporarily hawed. See, we're thinking and waiting,

sn4-24:16

And we will go. Maybe we can all get together again sometime.

== Footnotes ==

== End ==

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{{Page header}}
[[Category:1990s]]
[[Category:North Carolina]]
[[Category:Video]]
[[Category:DVD]]
[[Category:Auto-AI]]
[[Category:Youtube]]
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== Data Template ==


{{Recording Data
|record-date = October 7, 1991
|location = University, Raleigh NC
|number-tapes = This was a videotape, now ripped to DVD and to mp3.
|source =
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s = 4 mp3 files from ripped video, but file 4 is silent (30 min but no audio).
|total-time =
|transcription-status = Auto-AI at Rev.com Nov 20, 2025, pasted here Jan 1, 2026.
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf =
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks = VHS converted to DVD, then to mp3.
|audio-quality = Very good
|who-is-present = Pre intro by Gerge, then Intro by Augie Turak
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

== To Do ==

== Notes ==

Video tapes were ripped to DVD-VOB, then these were ripped to mp3.
#1 = 1 hour, #2 = 1 hour, #3 = 53 min, #4 = blank.

=== Youtube links ===
Short: @TATFoundation You Have To Fight For Enlightenment

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xQUeg_YquAo

Short: @TATFoundation "That Isn't The Truth"

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WlJSfBdvsg4

Gábor Hényel: Richard Rose - Part 1 /Lecture extracts/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGltafGTtzg

With playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGltafGTtzg&list=PLzEEjsU44dvj5K_Waz38coKGGgwxWJXVt

== Transcription ==

=== File vid1 ===
Time: 1 hour

Speaker 1

vid1-00:17

We're talking about chaos,

Speaker 2

vid1-00:18

That something gets out of the ordinance. So chaos,

Speaker 1

vid1-00:28

Which has no,

Speaker 2

vid1-00:38

Not everything, the mistake engineers and scientists are making make that mistake. You're only using

Speaker 1

vid1-01:18

To me parallel universes. Everybody's new says that they don't exist. They can't be proven.

Speaker 2

vid1-01:27

What happens in they deny they don't find something flaw. Gravity is a flaw we don't understand. Take any course on infinity. Unstoppable force meets an happens. This goes back to the

Speaker 3

vid1-02:29

Hi there. We're in a few rush preparations to try to make more room for people to breathe. So we're going to move the refreshment table right outside the door so you can get up and go out and you need to breathe to get a little cool and get something to eat. Feel free. I know it's a little tight, so we'll try to keep a nice, for those of you sitting on the floor, please just punch that you going sit on the floor and want to be here that, but try to leave an aisle for people to get in and out if they have to. Thanks.

vid1-03:04

Before we get going tonight, I'd like to say a little bit about the organization that helped make tonight's event happen. My name is George Mueller. I'm with the Self-Knowledge Symposium and the UAB Lecture Committee. Both of these organizations have worked together tonight to let this evening happen. The Self-Knowledge Symposium is a nonprofit non-denominational student group here on NC State Campus who was formed about two and a half years ago as a result of a small group of people in the University Scholars Program that took a great interest in these topics. After hearing a talk by Mr. Tur, Mr. Turak has been a student of Rose for on and off 20 some years. He's spent five years of his youth around college age working very intensely with Mr. Rose. And since then he fell from the path for a while and then came back to it again and devoting himself with me further to trying to get the word out that what this man has to say is important. I think everyone who's worked tonight to make this lecture happen believes that what he has to say is very important and can change your life. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce Mr. August. We'll be presenting Mr. Rose.

vid1-04:42

AT: Well, we got a full house here tonight. Thanks everybody for coming. I want to talk just a couple of minutes by Mr. Rose. Some of you might've been here a few weeks ago when I lectured and talked to Greg Lane. I hope interestingly enough about Mr. Rose. I met Richard Rose about 20 years ago when I was about your age, maybe a little more mixed up, maybe a little less mixed up in some of you. I don't know that, but I was looking for some answers in my life and it checked into a number of things at that point in time. Finally, a friend of mine, which would look like a coincidence in retrospect, maybe it wasn't a coincidence, told me about lecture and downtown Pittsburgh, a philosophical society where a zen master was supposed to be speaking with a little bit of anticipation but not much hope. I went down to take a look at the guy. I'd seen a lot of people at that point in time. A lot of things stand out and this is not a lecture about an introduction. I'm talking about what happened to me in that first meeting that I had. But I remember Rose said one thing that has stuck with me for a long time. He said, life is really a question of whether you're going to live like a dog or whether you're going to find out why a dog lives.

vid1-06:00

AT: And that really struck me along with a lot of the feelings that I got in listening to the man. His sincerity is an obvious integrity and his devotion to what he was doing. So I came up afterwards and I said, Hey, I'd like to get to know you a little bit better. He said, sure, come on down to West Virginia. That's where I live. And I went down and I started spending time with this man and I found a little bit about his life. I've learned a lot more on the intervening 20 years. Richard Rose started out as a very poor part of a very poor family during the depression spent much. A couple of times he was put into an orphanage by his family because they didn't have enough to eat for the whole family, so they'd have to put him in for an orphanage for short periods of time.

vid1-06:42

AT: He was always very, very motivated by religious concerns. He was brought up Catholic. He found himself writing on a piece of paper as earliest memories are. Many are called fewer chosen, many are called. If you were chosen, he would look down on a piece of paper and see himself doodling those words. By 12 years old, he decided to go to a monastery to be a priest, but he went with a little bit different attitude than most people I think do He really thought he was going to get the answers to the end of the universe, who God was, thought he was going to meet God in a monastery. He thought he was going to meet men who had known God on a personal basis. He was very disappointed. And after a number of years in the monastery, he left, he got into spiritualism. He decided to check out spirits to find out if there was anything that happened, and he's got a really good story about that, which if you want to, you can pry out of him tonight about what he found out in looking for spirits. But one thing he did find out, he said price was correct, it dead, no nothing.

vid1-07:39

AT: He then decided in a peak that he would get into chemistry and physics and he would figure everything out and divide the molecules to find out what life was all about. He spent a number of years that doing that and he decided St. Thomas Aquinas was right. The finite mind will never perceive the infinite and the intellect will never unravel the secrets of the universe all unaided. But one thing he kept through all of this with product of the age of 21 or 22 was a determination that if he didn't know who he was, if he didn't know whether there was a God or if he didn't know, the three great questions, who am I? Where did I come from and where am I going? Then life was not worth living because at that early age, he had decided that he was not going to live like a dog and just go through life responding to the petty things that he seemed to see most people around him doing.

vid1-08:27

AT: He found yoga and at 22 he made a vow to himself that he said that I'll either go crazy, I'll die or I'll find the answer. And for the next seven years, he devoted himself to harsh disciplines traveling around the country. Again, I'd encourage people to ask questions tonight and get some of the parts of this story because they're very interesting. At 28 years old, he had had tremendous experiences, but he found out that he still didn't know the answers. And I'll have to steal one of his lines, which I always liked. He always says at 28, my hair was falling out, my teeth were falling out, and what the hell was good was peace of mind and bliss if I was going to die stupid. So he said he decided that he was going to give up all this philosophy and go out and get married.

vid1-09:18

AT: Remember one time he said to me, fortunately all the women I met traded me like something that crawled out from under a wet rock. He said, I think God had a hand in it. He kept me on the path. But he vacillated back and forth between a tremendous drive that he had built up over many years to search for the truth. And on the other hand, a grad gathering despair as he began to realize that he had been kidding himself on so many different levels down through the years believing what he wanted to believe, et cetera, et cetera, which many of us do at the age of 30. And again, there was a number of very interesting circumstances that surround this at the age of life circumstances. At the age of 30, Mr. Rose had a cataclysmic experience happen to him, something he didn't expect, something he didn't understand at the time, but something that he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt was the answer to all of his questions from that day forward when that happened to him when he is 30 years old, Mr. Rose is in his early seventies now.

vid1-10:14

AT: So for the last 40 years, he has been dedicated his life to trying to communicate that to other people selflessly, compassionately working because he won't compromise his message very often alone or with few people to work with, he has continued to put his energies directly into what he believes. Of all the things I was writing down before this lecture tonight, many of the things that I learned from Richard Rose, one of them was I learned exactly what character is, what people mean by character. I learned what zen means when it talks about action. Probably foremost, I learned from him what zen means when it says Your life should be walking, not wobbling walk, don't wobble. A zen master one time answered that question when somebody asked him, what is zen? It's walk don't wobble. And I learned that from Richard Rose. I learned that strength can also can be combined with compassion.

vid1-11:14

AT: I learned that the power to be intimidating as we were talking about today can also be combined with kindness and many, many different paradoxical things. And probably first and foremost, I learned what is meant in the East by detachment and what is meant by service and selflessness, how someone can be tremendously committed, dedicated to the point almost of obsession. And something gets you detached at all times and always remember the human element in it. But probably from my life, the most important thing that I've learned from Richard Rhodes is that, and the thing, I would hope that all of you, whether you believe him, don't believe him or believe me or don't believe me, would carry away from this talk is that there is ladies and gentlemen something out there or as he would say something in there, something beyond your wildest imagination. Something more real, more terrifying, more wonderful than the books and the comic books and the fantasies that you've read. And it's waiting there for you to uncover. But if you don't get off your butt, it'll stay covered. But it is there. Thank you. Richard Rose,

Speaker 5

vid1-12:35

Excuse me,

vid1-12:43

R: I think he said it all. I might as well go home. I'm supposed to sit down, but I don't think I can talk very well sitting down. I'm going to begin by inviting questions because I've talked here before and I find out that there's always, people have a lot of questions and when I get to give a talk, I don't stop. So they can't either pose their question, so it might be interested. Maybe some people will not know what zen is or whether it's important or unimportant. And if you've read anything on it and you're curious about the procedures, I'll leave it open for questions and I think it's a good way to communicate.

vid1-13:44

R: Yes, what is enlightenment? What is enlightenment? Oh, that can't be answered. You can't define that. You can only define it for yourself after it happens to tell somebody to spell it out. You're going to get into adjectives, you'll have to define, and that goes on forever because it is almost like saying I'm in a certain mood and somebody else has describe it, but I'll try to get through to you a general idea. The truth of the matter is that you, no one ever knows what it is until it happens. So even if I describe it to you, it won't not be much value until you get interested and sign out for yourself and cause it to happen. But I'll tell you, one of the discoveries that you'll make is the fact that this place doesn't exist. So why am I talking now? Because we exist. Because we exist. Yeah. I thought I saw somebody's hand back there.

Speaker 5

vid1-15:02

Yeah,

vid1-15:09

R: That call with being a Christian and calling a Christian lon, you don't have to be a Buddhist to find the same answer that zen finds. There have been Christian saints, you might call them people who pledged themselves to a whole life of asceticism or whatever it took to get a step beyond. And some of them breached it according to this is all we have to go by is literature or an active teacher. The only thing is that zen is more of a, I would say, a perfect psychological process rather than then a tireless, relentless pursuit of self annihilation, starving yourself or doing penance or that sort of thing.

vid1-16:07

R: I heard a lot about confrontation. What purpose, confrontation, serve. Confrontation is we have, everybody has a conception and the conception is colored by the family. You are born into the country, you're born into the religion, you're practicing. And as a result of that, a lot of fiction sometimes develop because the majority of people may not agree with you. Meaning their attitude is that you're either wrong or they're wrong Because of that, if a student comes in and he says, I'd like to have the truth, then you find out if he can stand the truth, if he knows what it's about. And the only way you can get him to know what it's about is to question him. And that's confrontation. And it all lead to the same place. It doesn't matter when you start defining stuff, you'll eventually wind up defining things that aren't relative. You'll move from the relative dimension to a metal dimension or possible some possibility dimension of some possibility that we haven't touched yet. See, yeah, I can see the hand. I can't see the,

Speaker 7

vid1-17:31

Is it involved with finding a permanent center within yourself that warring between two factions inside yourself in order to find a permit center?

vid1-17:43

R: Well, it's hard for me to align it to the adjectives that you give, but I understand what you're driving at. And that is, let me say that a man has to become, and that means he has to change and the center develops differently. See for each person. In other words, that's where the questioning in zen, there's a story of a person that had epilepsy. No, it was a possession. I think the person was possessed. And somebody asked the zen teacher, he said, how did you cure him? And he said, I questioned him just incessantly questioning, why are you doing it? And of course, this was maybe 500 years ago. And our present day psychiatrists don't do much more. They make it. If they fall at that, they may have more success instead of pumping the ine or something like that. But it is the physical. You acquires nothing but the person itself. That is the observer is that which finds reality. And when it finds reality, and this game that we played, the body we left behind are insignificant. Doesn't matter that much.

Speaker 5

vid1-19:11

Yeah.

Speaker 8

vid1-19:12

I have two questions. I read your little pamphlet on meditation. The first question has to do with visualization.

Speaker 5

vid1-19:21

You

Speaker 8

vid1-19:21

Say that it's not only non-spiritual, it's talk a little bit about that.

vid1-19:27

R: Well, there's a whole class of effort put out to the idea of visualizing things instead of proving them Zen. The reason I got into it, I heard Augie give you a little rundown on my experience before I went away when I was 12 years old to be a Catholic priest and I wasn't dealing with facts, I was dealing with beliefs. And when I found that out, I decided to go somewhere where I could find facts. And this is the same with meditation. People are meditating on certain things, maybe a pet rock, maybe a piece of crystal, see all sorts of things or reading books. And because it flatters something that they would like to have in their nature, they'll read the book that follows their own convictions up to date. So when you get, what do you do meditation for? I don't know why some people meditate.

vid1-20:31

R: Maybe one person meditates for a different reason, maybe just to quiet themselves down. But if you're going out for answers in meditation, it's the same thing as the confrontation or the koans that they talk about in Zen, you make sure that you're not looking for dreaming a daydream in which you'll imagine you'll meditate on the pleasures you might have when you drink a beer or whatever you do, or say a prayer you may think that may give you ecstatic delight or something like that. So what you meditate on is yourself and the things that you do that perhaps you don't approve of mistakes you made and then you analyze that. And too there's a process of eroding away the ignorant part of your nature. The other thing is you have a complex, if you have a complex, you can't stand certain people or you get angry at a certain time, or you may even think of killing somebody.

vid1-21:36

R: I mean, that's gone through my head too at times. But you look at it, you say, why? See why? And you go back. If you continue to question yourself, you'll go back sometime in your maybe early childhood where you were confronted or somebody hurt you. And once you realize that, you realize that your whole lifestyle that you build up for revenge, your anger or defense is useless and not needed. You don't need it. See? And then the injury that the person gave you passes away and you're free. But as long as you have the idea of the revenge, so consequently you meditate. My advice in the low pamphlet is to meditate upon your trouble. It's not upon your pleasure. And people meditate. I used to see fellows that take acid or something and sit, meditate, and they'd be happy, real happy. I think they were dialing heaven getting in there another pill and they'd be one of the archangels.

vid1-22:43

R: And this is an exaggeration of course, about what almost everybody does in meditation. They want to relax. They come home from work perhaps, and they want to go into a posture and relax and think of niceness. No, what's holding up your personality and your life is the negative things that's happened to you. And there's a lot of stuff written on meditation. And it's the reason I wrote that pamphlet is because it's not good sense. It's not good sense to meditate on pleasure if you want to know who you are. And after you correct yourself, you'll say, Hey, I am not as important as I thought it was. I thought I was important enough that I should go punch that guy in the nose. See, but you're not important enough. It's just something that's going to get in your road if you do. That's all

Speaker 8

vid1-23:36

My second question. You talk a lot about thesis this last year on survivors of childhood abuse and encountered many multiple personalities and very interesting phenomenon of the mind. And I was wondering if you know anything about that.

vid1-24:00

R: Now you have to speak lately. Did you say complex?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:04

Multiple

Speaker 6

vid1-24:04

R: Personalities? Yes. What do you think they are?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:08

I don't know. I've met several in my work and my thesis.

Speaker 6

vid1-24:13

What were they children or adults?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:14

They were adults.

vid1-24:15

R: Yeah, they were adults. Clearly defined. Would you, let's say to define this term, would you say that it would be the same possession?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:25

All I can do is tell you what they told me. And they didn't feel possessed. They felt they had up to the people I met, one of them had 19 personalities.

Speaker 6

vid1-24:35

R: Well that's same as possession, taking over their body. And sometimes when they, well, they communicated clearly when they were dealing, they learned to communicate with the different person, different personalities. They weren't tell you. I'll give you one bit of advice. If you have business with those, I'd advise you to drop the business because the things you're talking about can be the real, can be physical enough to light on you like a flea and be hard to get off.

Speaker 8

vid1-25:15

Do you see this as you see this as some entity, an external entity that takes them over? Or is this a trick of the mind that happened because of childhood? Or

vid1-25:25

R: Is this part of the first is truth? The second is modern psychology's vain effort to make nice excuses for it. So everybody won't hate somebody else's cause they're possessed. What type

Speaker 1

vid1-25:45

Of separate entity

vid1-25:46

R: Would possess? Where would that entity come from? What would it be? I have no real information on that. They are there as we know. And for centuries there have been formulas written down for the method of getting rid of 'em and they're not parts of our personality. There are parts find a way of getting into your mind and not getting out. And consequently it may ruin your social system. I mean your social relationships, it may ruin a marriage or ruin friendships. And the motivations, of course are unclear on part of the entity. Yes. What are the circumstances?

vid1-26:41

R: Well, we are ignorant in that respect because we presume that God's control. See the presumption, the presumption that almost every religion makes is that God is in control. If he is in control, how does it come? He allows an innocent person to suddenly become possessed and chew their tongue off or do something disastrous. See? Yes, that have something to do with karma. Karma, karma is what I was talking about. When one guy gets these nose punched and then he finally gets punched and goes back and punches him back. That's karma. See? Yes. Saying that mental illness is possession

Speaker 9

vid1-27:32

Facts science, which dissects the brain, neurological

vid1-27:38

R: Lapses in people who have schizo brain, that their neurons aren't connected. I've read all about the neurotransmitters and they're not touching it, they're not touching it. The soul is not the brain. Modern psychology says that the brain is all we have and the brain has reactions and that's our personality showing itself is brain reactions. You'll find out that's not true, but you see the psychologists who are people waiting for a profession, so can people off for a hundred dollars an hour, they're going to concoct their own answer and that's their answer.

Speaker 7

vid1-28:26

Do you have a question that we might not have sold? That death might be absolute nothing forever. How dealt with

Speaker 6

vid1-28:32

That?

vid1-28:39

R: I am going to open this up. I didn't want to type too much time, but this is the relationship of the human soul to a thing that is called the absolute soul. Now, you can give other names to this, but this is the brain. See, this is the brain. Down here is the body and it's surrounded by what I call the Atman. This is the Atman. This is the human soul, the individual soul that walks with. He goes, it doesn't stay here, it stays with him in his body or close to his body. So it is detached from the eternal soul. And so this is what happens now when death occurs, this is where you find yourself, the body's gone. There is no death. There is no death, but there may be a dark period in which you don't know where you are. How did you develop that? Huh? How did you develop that surety? I went. I went over, and that's the only answer. I don't care who it is, how many books you have on religion or anything like that. You have to make the trip if you know it's over there. That's all. And a few people do some by accident, some by fighting for it for half of their lifetime and causing it to maybe help priding it into action, into visibility or something.

Speaker 9

vid1-30:23

The impression I get is that you retain a sense of individuality of the same person you all hear. You carry that over to having the physical body gone. Is that true with a whole bunch of other,

vid1-30:38

R: The truth of the matter is you may not even want to think about the body you left. That was what happened to me. I had no thoughts. I've often heard of stories of people that couldn't die peacefully because they had an infant child or something like that. And I watched my parents die and I wonder if they'll be ever be in contact again, that sort of thing. But I'm sure that if they experienced the same thing I get when they, as soon as they completely died, they wouldn't worry about the kids they left behind. Yeah.

Speaker 10

vid1-31:18

We were talking earlier about conflict. Do you think that the conflict and stress then are actually positive influences in helping people develop? And if that is the case, how come in some individuals go to such an extreme that it begins to cause problem?

vid1-31:33

R: You mean the conflict like confrontation would cause problems? Sure, sure, sure. If you argue with your wife for a while and she doesn't agree with you, she'll start screaming perhaps, but she'll survive. She'll survive. I mean, if you're telling the truth or you believe something sincerely, and this is all we know, we believe, and sometimes people other believe something sincerely, but if the person is not trying to logically work this out, but trying to take and force their mental picture onto somebody else, then they have to be the one that will see the foolishness of it. And sometimes this gets violent. I mean, people can fall on the floor and bite their tongue and Lord knows what else. And the result of before, they'll want to admit that they haven't thought the thing out. And this is the reason that I make the effort I do, is because people of their own do not try to go after the truth. They try to adapt society to their desires and they go where they can get favorable answers and they associate with people that flatter them. But that isn't the truth. See, and if you have a child growing up and he wants to live in there or she wants to live in a fairytale land and you let the child do it, then you'll live to regret it because the child will never be interested in being honest with people or honest with himself or herself. Do

Speaker 10

vid1-33:16

You see stress as being more of an offshoot of conflict and confrontation?

vid1-33:22

R: No. No. We are programmed at birth and long before birth and the genes that come down from the grandparents and everything else, we're programmed to enhance ourselves. We're programmed to control another person, male or female. The female wants to control the man. The man wants to control the female. So consequently, you're getting something now that is not even a discussion or approach to sanity, it's approach to two animals sparring for turf. See? So when they're confronted with that and they see it and it's much better attained, there's sometimes there's an attainment of wisdom in marriage because both parties like each other enough that they are not doing it to hurt. But they will say, Hey, you're observed, see? And after the other party finds out, they're observed, maybe both parties, you'll find out they're observed and then you can silently walk down the path together. But I don't think that we have to do everything somebody else believes just for to have a nice society. We will never have a nice society. I think for some reason it is made a bit rough. So we'd think,

Speaker 2

vid1-34:48

Is it better to confront yourself or have someone confront you?

vid1-34:52

R: You can confront yourself. You can confront yourself. And that's the reason I talk that little pamphlet on meditation is to think about the traumas, the people you hated, people you still hate. That's a good thing. You don't have to be that. It could be why you did something stupid five years ago or why you get fired and you'll get back and the information will come to you that possibly you were in the wrong or you didn't have a complete thing doped out correctly. See, and when that happens, when some of you, surely some of you people here have had that experience, once you can face the things that you've fouled up on, you're taller, you're free, you feel it physically free. See, and I'm talking from a personal account, an incident when I was a young boy grade school, there was a boy in the class that he was deformed, very strange looking boy. And I would look at him and grin because he looks a comic to his mother. He might look pathetic to me. He looked like this is something that belongs in the movies in the zoo. And he picked it up and punched me in the nose.

vid1-36:17

Well, he won. I could not punch him. So I swore I'd get him. And I've always been a pretty determined person. So I thought, I'll wait until I get the chance. And I hit him with a 2x4 before whatever's necessary. And one day I was out on the farm sitting by myself and happened to come back to me and I thought to myself, I'm not putting myself in that guy's place. This is the error I made. What if I had his body and somebody come up to me and smirked or whatever, see? And I could have punched him. Maybe I'd have done the same thing. And then I realized that I was the louse, that all these years that I'd stuck in with this and was wanting to take action, I realized that this poor fella had a much harder row to hoe. And I was making it rough for him and I couldn't blame him.

vid1-37:16

R: So this is the way things solve themselves. But you have to have an open mind. And this is meditation. There was nobody else in the room. I just got to thinking about things that happened in the past. And if you've got a troubled mind, you'd go back in your past, go back, just run back through incidents and you'll pick 'em up. They'll pop out because everybody's got an unfinished agenda. See things that people have done to him and that sort of thing. Basically it was something that was descended on me because I was a Laos. I was a smart lec. See what I mean? And who wants to support or further the efforts of a smart al? So this is, and this of course, you'll hear this said in religion, we got to forgive people. No, you've got to analyze yourself. Then you can forgive people. You can say, I forgive him. Yeah, but you'll be talking under your breath maybe. See, maybe I'll get it. You had your hand up here. This idea of some

Speaker 8

vid1-38:21

People seems to advance towards this divine much better than others. And you think this is genetic, that some people can do this much more easily than other

vid1-38:30

R: People do. I wouldn't say it was, I wouldn't say it's genetic. I don't know why. And I wrote a poem one time, I've written some poetry, I think, I dunno if it's in the book out there, but the poem started off, I know not why I ever sought it unless my young heart caught the urge to love to gentle be and find out who I am. And that was the only thing that caused me to look is I was looking for the most important thing in my life because my family was dying, my grandparents were dying, my parents were dying. I knew that was up ahead. And of course you never think you're going to die, but sometimes that happens.

vid1-39:22

R: So I was just a relentless thing that I realized that life meant nothing. If I was going to go through life making the mistakes I made with that little boy in grade school, I was in trouble. I couldn't even figure out my own lifestyle. I couldn't even control my own lifestyle. I maybe spend 60 years correcting myself from some stupid thing after another. See, but I'm wondering why. So I go to church and I hear the preachers and I can't buy it. I can't buy it because I could see that they could take you into belief, but not proof. And I believe in proof. Yeah.

Speaker 8

vid1-40:02

But in your experience of going over, are you convinced that we only get one chance, that maybe some of these people haven't done this several times?

vid1-40:12

I don't believe people die. I don't believe people die. I think some people go into unconsciousness, but I don't believe anyone dies. Totally. Some of these folks further along

Speaker 8

vid1-40:20

On the gone through this more often than others, they have more experience than you can do.

vid1-40:28

R: I dunno. See, I'll be quite honest with you. A lot of people talk about reincarnation. I cannot remember anything previous. I cannot remember anything. And I know that there's people who do. I mean there's children. The reason I say I'm quite sure, because they look get little children occasionally, and the children will take the parents to another town and say, this is where I lived. See, this is in India. They had a case like that, a little girl. And there's more than one case. See? So I don't doubt that we lived before. You're not uncomfortable with that idea. You just, I'm not uncomfortable with anything. It's the truth. And if there's evidence brought on anything, I'm say that's what you listen to, not prejudice, but evidence. See, you had it.

Speaker 1

vid1-41:21

Something that I've noticed through my life is that like with the martial arts, for instance, but there are fighters and then there are warriors. The fighters don't put any feeling at all, but they don't try to flow or creating art. But yet the warriors are the ones who sit there off to the side after they've had their sparring matches or whatever, and they'll paint or they'll create poetry and stuff. Some is very, very beautiful. But how can they destroy it and yet create at the same time,

Speaker 6

vid1-41:49

Destroy.

Speaker 1

vid1-41:50

How can they destroy at one point

vid1-41:53

R: And create another point? I don't know. I don't understand that myself. But of course when you get down to basics, what is destroyed, who dies? See, sometimes we plow under a city to build something more beautiful.

Speaker 8

vid1-42:11

I have two questions about truth. Can you tell when someone's telling the truth? And how do you tell when someone's telling the truth or what is truth?

Speaker 6

vid1-42:21

R: Truth is the most probable of all considerations in regarding a word or a situation. But truth is honesty with yourself. I believe if the traffic cop stops you on the corner and says you were speeding and weren't you, and you can say, no, that's all right. You weren't speeding. That's a lie. But you're defending yourself. And in other words, we don't know the police department to pursue our spiritual work with everybody that we touch. Let the cop get his enlightenment someplace else. I take,

Speaker 2

vid1-43:08

Are you a positive positivist?

Speaker 6

vid1-43:11

R: I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 2

vid1-43:14

How do you feel about positive

Speaker 6

vid1-43:15

R: Negatively? (laughter)

Speaker 2

vid1-43:21

I have a question. You like

Speaker 9

vid1-43:23

Truth, but then again, you address things through spirituality and possession. There's no scientific proof of anything like that.

vid1-43:37

R: Oh, I think there is even a few psychologists that admit that there's things such as possession. Just like we were speaking here before, there are people that are born that remember a previous life. That means that there's something is still possessing their head. See, of course, it may be in the case of a real previous incarnation that there's nothing violent there. But at the same time, you might have, let's say a traumatic nerve, a sheath, nerve sheath that is damaged. I knew a fellow who had epilepsy and he came on him when he is a grown man about 30 years of age. And of course, sometimes it starts with children. It's inherited characteristics sometimes. And the kids will get it when they're about two. And they used years ago, call it eclampsia. But when they got older, they took more violent spells. And when they got into their sex period life, it really became strongest then.

vid1-44:39

R: So there's no doubt about it that they were, it's now natural action. But there's cases very similar to that where the person never had an epileptic spell as a child, but out of a clear blue, he would become like epileptic or he'd do something violent. And a number of these writers have written upon, of course, the churches all believe in possession and casting out devils, I don't quite go along with the idea that they're devils. I think they're possibly guys like Ted Kennedy or somebody that couldn't steal everything he wanted to, and finally decided to come back the next time, make up for what he lost. But whatever it is, it's the next human spirit. I'm joking now, but whatever it is, it is a separate personality. And sometimes these entities will give information, speak in Latin, speak in foreign languages. The person uttering it doesn't know. What you want to do is if you're concerned about this, get books on it. There's a lot of them that there was an exorcism by, what was his name?

vid1-46:11

R: I can't remember. Exorcism and possession. But there's a good bit of this stuff out if you want to look into it and are authoritative things. And then on top of that, there's history. For instance, to give you an example, all through history, there's even a tribe. A tribe of Indians had one of their members that could exercise. If you read the literature, get back into the literature of those primitive peoples. They had a method of exercising them. And different nationalities or different religions had different beliefs about it. But the one thing they had in common that this was a personality, a complete personality, infringing coming in, speaking through your mouth. See, now I'm going to give you an example. Who was it mentioned this first, we kept talking about this. There was a movie came out here on the line of Blavatsky's [check] book possession. It was a possession, you know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 5

vid1-47:19

Ex

vid1-47:20

R: The Exorcist? Yeah. I was in West Virginia at the time and I had a friend in DC in Washington that knew I was interested in getting data on this. So when it came out, it came out in the Washington paper that this boy had become possessed and things that did to try to cure him. They brought in a Presbyterian minister. Incidentally, blady put a little girl in it because he wanted to get people to view something and were morbid minded. And something crude about a little girl will attract more minded people. And about a little boy perhaps, see, and some of the stuff that went on, it wasn't in the book incidentally see. And I thought it was really scraping the bottom of the barrel to get a point across the way the people made the movie. But it was a little boy and the Presbyterian minister knew the family and he told him he'd come over and sleep with the boy. The kid was up all night, I guess. So he came over and what happened was something threw him out of bed, physically through the minister, out of bed. The teacher, preacher. Yeah. Now this means that this is something dealing with material. It's not a concept of mind, it's not a hangup. It means that this has capacity for dealing with material, physical things and tossing them around.

vid1-48:57

The preacher gave up.

vid1-48:59

R: He quit after he got thrown out. A couple of times he quit. So while he was home, different people would come in, doctors would come in, and the mother made a remark one day when in the midst of his fit, she said, Sarah, leave the boy alone. Sarah was her sister who fondled the kid when he was little. And she died. She had died shortly before he started taking these spells. This is the real story behind us. You can't get it from Vlad's book. You have to go get the Washington Post. In 1949, I think it was. It happened. So they sent him off to Kansas. I think the boy went out to Kansas to, there were two priests out there, a Catholic priests that were capable of casting out these spirits. So the boy was antagonistic. He wasn't cooperative. So of course, I dunno how many of you saw the picture, those scenes about this little girl vomiting. That didn't happen. That was all nonsense. The only thing happened, they took him in front of the priest and while he was standing there, the priest took out his mal rum. That's the book. You know what it is?

Speaker 9

vid1-50:31

The witches hammer.

vid1-50:32

R: Yeah. And proceeded to read the formula for exorcism. A kid walked right up to him, put his hand on the book, and his finger on the book and the book dis into confetti, fell of the floor. See, they tried to get ahold of him. They got ahold of the boy and he kicked one of the priests in the groin. He was pretty agile. See? But they stayed with it. And after a period of time, they got him free. And so that was the thing, but it wasn't dramatic enough for Platy or the people in Hollywood. So they made a real scenario out, but he eventually did get cured of it. So the only reason I'm saying this, don't deny things because you don't like to hear them, because there are things that we don't have an answer for them. And this one fellow I knew that was an epileptic, he said that his cause his trouble was caused by an injury to a nerve sheath.

vid1-51:43

R: And he said he believed that. And of course this is just a concept now. He believed that we're pretty much insured, that whoever designed this body took precautions that certain things couldn't get in germs, poisons and this sort of thing or something from another dimension or something we couldn't see. But under certain conditions it could get in. And this is the reason, one of the reasons that nearly every Christian religion, and perhaps I don't know the details of all other religions on the face of the earth, but nearly all of them advise a very strict spiritual life if you don't want to be bothered. So consequently, there's a lot of people that believe that you can prevent it and if you can't prevent it, but what do we read from it? We read that somehow Aunt Sarah was dead, but she went back, wanted to continue doing things she had done before. That was all. And her method of doing it was seizing the boy through his nervous system. She just seized. He took spells. Yes.

Speaker 8

vid1-53:00

You've talked of possessions and spirit so far.

Speaker 9

vid1-53:04

You've been talking about possessions and

Speaker 6

vid1-53:06

Yeah,

Speaker 9

vid1-53:06

And I don't know a whole lot about zen, but for some reason I felt that with Zen, they don't deal with spirits in the supernatural and all that. It's just a whole different thing.

vid1-53:18

R: That's what I was saying, the confrontation. This confrontation. And they asked a guy one time, but how he cured Philip was either possessed or epileptic. And he said, I continue to question him until he quits. See? And that's the zen technique for everything to bring about the supreme mental state that you need. In other words, what we're doing is 24 hours a day we're wrapped up in not in facts or not in our definition. We don't define ourselves. People don't know who they are. And it seems like it's impossible because very few people ever find out who they are. In other words, they know they're a body, but they don't know if they have a soul. They're not defined. See. So consequently, I think that there's nothing wrong with studying the ways and means to clean the house if somebody breaks in, see or to prevent people from something, from breaking in,

Speaker 7

vid1-54:26

That kind of thing. Being thought with sort of like a biological unconscious where it's just material materially based. Whereas something that is positive, spiritually based, the so-called negative influences can only approach to the biology of a person.

Speaker 6

vid1-54:46

R: I can't tie that together. I can't tie that together. I know that right now they're worrying with the new road transmitters and this stuff. We was listening to a tape the other day about, what was that? Encephalitis? Reis. He had encephalitis. What was the guy's name that wrote that book? Sachs. And I could see that they're fishing desperately to try to identify all of this stuff with the body, with materials. And I mean, watching a movie like an Exorcist seems to make it tap

Speaker 7

vid1-55:24

Into a collective kind of thinking that gives more people to watch. That show gives more power

Speaker 6

vid1-55:31

R: And collective unconscious. Well, I wouldn't say that because there was very few people that saw these things that ever saw them or believed in them. And yet that entity had power enough to crack into that child or into an adult. There's lots of people manifest possession. There's a lot of them. Too much alcohol. You'll see people that will get completely out of character. Can you talk about your enlightenment experience? Well, if you ask me questions, I'll answer them, but I don't like to spend a lot of time what? That was a question. Is that a no? You're not going to talk about

Speaker 8

vid1-56:16

It happen when you were 30 years old. What preceded it and what was the experience?

vid1-56:23

R: I heard Augie talking about the fact that it happened. I said that's true. And I spent the rest of my time trying to write it to explain what happened and how possibly a person might be able to duplicate it. See, of course, it's impossible to duplicate, get a formula for people to duplicate so that when it happens, they're always different. Everybody I've met, other people were enlightened and the story they told was altogether different of the process they went through. I could run through some one of 'em. For example, this was a fellow that, there was a fellow, he was in the Air Force and he was fighting the Japanese and he was bombing cities and he was a devout Christian. And he read the Bible and thought that that's where he found the truth. So stick to the Bible. But he got to thinking after he had blowed several thousand people up on those cities over in Japan, and he says, where's God? Why did God permit this? The Bible says God observes the fall of the spiral. Where was he when a thousand people fell? See, so the result, he got to talking to himself and they saw how he was worried, troubled. So they gave him a leave of absence for arrest and realization thinking that he'd get over it. So he went back.

=== File vid2 ===
Time: 1 hour

Speaker 1

vid2--00:00

R: Back. He was from Texas in San Antonio, and he went back to San Antonio. That's where I met him, in fact. [Correction: Rose met Paul Wood in Akron at Bob Martin's house.] And he had a wife, had a wife before he left, and some small children. So he goes back and his wife threw him out. She couldn't live with him because she thought he was acting crazy. So he went and got a job. He had a job, but it was very difficult for him to hold a job even because his answer wasn't, he didn't get his answer. He had put his whole life on Christianity and the belief that whatever the Bible said was right. See, so why didn't God stop the bomb? The same as he watched the fall of the sparrow. Why take care of a sparrow be considered when he didn't care about a thousand people? He's still got the problem. He hasn't solved. And this is what the mind is with everything. We face stuff. And rather than say, Hey, that might not be true, let's go and iron this out that we find it is true or not. That's the way you do it. Don't try to build for belief.

vid2-01:08

R: That's the point. Well, anyhow, he said that he got a job in as a salesman and a dealer, automobile dealership. And he said that he was always uneasy, he was troubled, and it was just got so heavy that one day he said he put his head down on the desk and prayed for God to kill him. He wanted to get out. If couldn't have peace of mind. He wanted to be dead. He passed out. He was a week in the hospital a week or 10 days. He said in those 10 days he traveled all over the country and all different periods of time, he would be walking down the street and he would describe the battle of Gettysburg.

vid2-01:58

R: When we talk about enlightenment, there's different reactions, people have different reactions. And finally he came to peace with himself that he decided he wasn't going to worry anymore. He was going to do the work that he was set out for, and that was to bring people to the same realization that he had. So of course he didn't stay in San Antonio. He moved up into Oklahoma on a farm and everything. He didn't worry about eating. He said sometimes he'd go without food, but it didn't bother him and he didn't have transportation. One day I fell, drove up and gave him a secondhand car and I saw it. It was a pretty nice car. But he said, those that serve God, he said will be taken care of. And I'm convinced of that. So I'm not worried about that. But this experience this man had was that he could see anything that he wanted to at any time in history. A little slice of that happened to me when I was over there. I noticed that I could see anything that I wanted to, but I didn't desire to see anything. I was having too much exhilaration from being where I was, knowing that I was still alive and that sort of thing. Who was first? You go ahead.

Speaker 2

vid2-03:22

Can you be over there whenever you want?

Speaker 1

vid2-03:26

R: No, no, no. What I have is the memory of it. See? And the conviction, of course. In other words, if you come back to life, you're back in the storybook. This is a storybook. This is a bit of fiction. And we play it like a game.

Speaker 2

vid2-03:50

Can you travel to a specific point or, well, you want

vid2-03:54

R: I didn't. I didn't. While I was there. Of course. See, I don't, I know that he was in real trouble for a week before it happened. And with me, I didn't have that. I was very quick. I had a pain in the top of my head and I thought, how's in Seattle, Washington? And I thought, here I go. And I don't know anybody in Seattle that's in a hotel and sitting up. I used to, I'd get into a town if I was bored or something. I took a job there, in fact. And that time on my hands, I'd get out of the library and get a book on yoga or something and read it. And I was sitting there and I'd do all these, everything they said to do in yoga, breathing exercises. And I tried everything that was advised. See? So this particular time, well, when I'd sit on the bed, I'd sit on top of the bed and lean against the headboard because I don't think there was too many chairs in my room. I can't remember using a chair. But that's the way of doing it. I'd happen to be sitting there and this pain hit. Well, I thought I'm going to, this is going to be it. And then I found myself someplace else. I found myself.

vid2-05:16

R: I knew where I was. And now I don't want to get into this too deeply because it'll provoke questions. I don't want to answer questions of how many angels I found on the head of a pin. See things of that sort. But that's basically what happened. But then as I said, I was, nothing mattered to me. I mean, the thing is, I a little embarrassed by it in a way because I remembered when I came back, I thought, geez, I had no concern at all for my family. Didn't bother me a bit. Cut off from them. I think it's laid up. No, this has it. You have your hand up.

Speaker 3

vid2-06:05

You said that all of this didn't really exist. And so my question is, I presume that something else does exist. Well, how do you

vid2-06:18

R: Sense that? Can you sense that Now when you're in that position in which this place is fiction, you can create any fiction that you want. That's a thing. And that's is what happens. And I've got a few notes here. I hope we have time to go through some of 'em on the ability to learn this. You can learn this business of causing things to happen. And I'm going to shift now. What time is it? What time? We have to be out of here? 8 42 now. Huh? It's 8 42 now. Yeah. I dunno if we have any time restrictions. Huh? Anybody know? We don't have any time. As long as your hold, long as your voice hold. Well, yeah, I'll just get a little horse. That's all. How many people here have heard of, what's this thing? Cause we use the word, I check my notes, I forget terms. It's synchronicity. Have you heard of synchronicity? What do you think it is? Basically? Do you think it is a cause that there's things caused to happen?

Speaker 4

vid2-07:52

Just that certain patterns are repeated throughout Experience? Yeah, there are certain patterns that happen more often.

vid2-08:02

R: Well, there's different, I picked up a little book by Alan Vaughn and it was on synchronicity, 1and I was somewhat amazed. First of all, I'd heard it for years. There was a fellow came to the farm. I have a farm down in West Virginia, and he was staying at the farm. He wasn't too stable. Why? I don't know. But he worried about psychic things and he got a dump truck and was hauling lumber and stuff for people. And I got into his truck one day and I said, your bearings, the bearings in the drive shaft are coming loose. He said, Mr. Rose, don't say that. And I said, why not? Well, he said, why did you say it? I said, because I've had old junk trucks when I was younger, and I know the noise. That's all. We didn't get two miles down the road. Boom, driveshaft broke.

vid2-09:15

R: Well, I thought, boy, if I ride with him, I'm going to have to keep my mouth shut safe. So we were on another trip, another trip after that. I never rode with him again. The second trip, the second trip, I looked at the tires and they were bare. One of 'em was. And I said, you sure we get this truckle, haul this with a bare tire? He said, would you please be quiet a few miles down the road? Now there's people here that witness this, that know about it. I'm not making it up. And we went to tower. I never rode with him again. I didn't want to disrupt his business whether I was doing it or not, but it was just, to me, it was no magic. I saw a tire was ready to blow, that's all I heard. A noise that I identified before. Okay. But he would always talk about synchronicity. And he thought I was using synchronicity to blow up his tires.

vid2-10:16

R: I picked up this book by a Vaughn the other day, and I got to looking through it. And it wasn't clear to me what synchronicity meant means synchronizing, things that synchronize. But under that category, there's a lot of stuff that they list. Extrasensory perception and synchronicity, psychokinesis, deja vu, prophetic dreams. You have a prophetic dream, meaning the person dreams. One of the famous mediums, a few years back, Eileen Garrett saw the a durable fall out of the sky days before it fell or simultaneous. She was in England. This durg, I think collapsed plane collapsed in France and some people got killed. It kind of put her on, made her famous because she was a seer. And of course she's also an author, the Oracles of Delphi, precognition, unconscious foreknowledge like somebody going into a trance or something. And Kessler Kessler wrote a book called A Roots of Coincidence. And that's what it was largely about. And I'm reading this because I couldn't remember all these things because I wanted to get an exact definition of synchronicity because synchronicity seemed to match some of my experience. And I thought I could get enough instances to indicate what was going on in these people had it.

vid2-12:16

R: Kessler makes a strange statement. Consciousness creates space, time, and matter. The artfully contained coincidence of life's are just that contrived by our consciousness as is the rest of our life. Now if you can interpret that statement, what he's saying is that a planet was made by mind to not just human minds. That there's a mind stuff. And I read some books years ago saying, I'm taking these for a fact that they have to be believed. But when you read, when you're studying a certain subject, you read it and then you can decide later whether you don't believe everything you read. But in a spiritualistic movement, they decided to categorize the planes of after death experience. And they were the astral plane, the etheric plane, and the causal plane and a couple more, which important. But what interested me was this causal plane. So they believed that when a person got into that plane, you could do anything. You could create anything you wanted. So if this is true, mine from another superior advantage can create things on this earth, maybe even the earth. See? So what happens? One thing I know that when I was standing on this hilltop in this far away place, I saw no planets that's on no sun.

vid2-14:06

R: But we get back to this synchronicity. What does this stop us? You read enough of this stuff and you come to the conclusion there might be a formula here. There must be a formula. So how do you work it? I noticed some things about my life that caused me to get another view, another view on it. One is that I was able, when I was a child, to see people before they died, when they were dying, when they were going to die. I mentioned to your gie, did the details maybe about when I was 12 years old, I went away to a seminary and my mother took me up to the church and there was a priest there. I'd say he's about 45, 50 years of age, and I couldn't take my eyes off of him. I kept watching him and she made the arrangements and obvious supposed to get on a bus and go up to Pennsylvania to the seminary.

vid2-15:16

R: See? And I walked out with my mother and I said, father Phillips's going to die. She said, shut up. He was sacred. He didn't talk that way about you priest. He died in a week. And I used to go past people's houses and smell flowers. I'd stop and write the number down. I'd find out later that somebody in the house died. Now these are like synchronistic events that I'm somehow able to function in two areas at once. See? Or it's a combination of the smell. Maybe the smell didn't even exist. Maybe it's a metal thing that's translating an indoor odor or something like that. But this kind of stuck with me that certain times things would happen.

vid2-16:10

R: And I noticed that if you do things by holding your mind a certain way, you can accomplish them. I'm going to give you an account of I got sick one time not too long ago, and I didn't think I was going to recover. So to get my mind off my sickness, I went down to a beer joint about as far as I could walk, in fact. And I got in there and they got to playing cards and I lost some money because I wasn't watching what I was doing. I just killing time. And they were running the ante up all the time. It started with a nickel and a dime and a quarter and a dollar. And first thing you know, I got about a thousand dollars in the poker business. So I decided that I was just going to call everybody. If they didn't have me beat showing I was going to call 'em, I wouldn't bet, but I'd call 'em.

vid2-17:02

R: So everything changed. I got so confident that in draw poker, I would call for cards and get them exactly face up. I'd tell 'em, don't put 'em down, turn 'em up, face up. See, and I'll give you an example. I know how many play poker, but in this particular case they called it low card wild. The lowest card in your hand was wild. So that if you had a pair of threes and you got a deuce, you had three threes. But if you had a pair of threes and four kings, you had five kings. But catch a deuce, you've only got a full house perhaps if you only had two kings and that deuce was below the three, that's a low card. Wow. So consequently, if you call for cards and you need a high card, unlucky, the chances are you won't get it. And I remember I called, I had a queen, two queens and a jack, and I kept the jack.

vid2-18:02

R: It is a picture card. So I said to the dealer, give a queen and a jack, he threw it over, queen and jack. I had people get up and eat the cards, actually eat the cards. And I'd tell 'em, don't bet. I'd say, don't bet I got your beat. No, no. They thought I was bluffing, but I wasn't good at bluffing. That's the reason I told the truth. I'd show it they was reding my reading my face before. See, and they knew when I had a winner, I'd get bright eyed and they would drop out and I wouldn't get anything when I had a good hand, but I was indifferent. So I saw a tremendous lot of these things happen.

vid2-18:43

R: I believe I can't help but believe that people here have had them happen. Things that were indescribable, something would happen and you'd feel that. The thing number one is that it's not possession. I would clean up the table and I go over, we'd go over to a high, there was an all night restaurant over there, and I'd take all these guys I played poker with and buy 'em a steak dinner at one o'clock in the morning because I didn't want their money, but I couldn't stop it. I got my money more than what I'd lost in the previous days. Now, this was just a state of mind I got into.

vid2-19:26

R: First I was afraid I was going to lose, so I lost. And then I didn't care whether I lost or not. So I start winning. I think the reason I'm saying this, that perhaps you've had things like that yourself. You'll have moments in which you feel I can't miss see, but if you brag about it, boom, believe me, it goes. Now why these are factors sounds like superstition, but I've seen it working too many times. One of these incidents in Vaughan's book was interesting. He describes a piece in which Edgar and Poe wrote about a boy that was eaten on board a ship. And his name was say, Jimmy Carter, just pick a name. And this occurred in PO's story in 1838. And he said the kid was killed and eaten aboard ship 12-year-old boy. And his story, it was a fiction in 1884, they had a ship left, one of the port's here, and they run a ground on an island or something and they eat a 12-year-old boy by the name of Jimmy Carter.

vid2-21:00

R: It was almost like gro and PO had seen this ahead of time, unconsciously. He didn't deliberately know there was a boy by the name of Carter going to be eaten. But somehow his unconscious mind, the conscious mind searching for names would've absolutely picked something else. But being unconscious. He happened to pick the right name. I mean they were indifferent. Let's say a high state of indifference. Everybody knows Eileen Garrett, perhaps You ever hear that name? Eileen Garrett. She wrote a few books. She came into this country and tried to put a publishing, started publishing outfit up in New York. And she wrote one of to publish all the strange books about elves and ferries and superhuman spiritual occurrences and this sort of thing. And she also put out a magazine. But anyhow, she's a well-known author and she had been a medium and somebody asked her, how do these things work? How do you do this? And I copied it pretty much verbatim what she said.

vid2-22:08

I only do it successfully in a state of high dalliance dalliance indifference. See what I mean? And when she was in that state, then her mediumship was accurate. I want to tell you some of the other things that happened down at the place down at the farm. We were building a building and the boys were pulling some. We had oak logs 24 feet long, which we had owned out with a chainsaw to make beams out of them, to hold a roof up. And an oak is about a board. Foot of oak is about seven pounds a foot an inch. Bo elbow is around seven pounds. You take 48 of those and 12 inches thick and you got a bit of weight. So I came down and was using an old pair of rope blocks to take them up about 30 feet in the air, put the ridge a ridge beam in.

vid2-23:13

And I looked at the rope and I said to him, if I was you, I wouldn't depend on that rope to hold that thing up in the air. And I turned around and walked away and it fell. The rope broke and fell. I had to watch what I said then because everything I said, David, jeez, he's going to kill us one of these days. The same fellow had the truck had this axle go out. He was standing on the back porch one day and it had a billy goat tied out in the fence, see, had a light on a wire. And he said, the billy goat hollered for help. And I said, nonsense. I heard animal it's making noise. And he said, no. I said, the goats can't say. He said, but he said, help. So I went out and the goat was tangled all up and he was making a noise, but didn't sound like help. But see, he believed these things. I don't know if to him it sounded like help or not, but it meant it filled the bill. And I've run into this stuff all the time. So what are we getting at? We're getting at the possibility. The thing behind this is that what can we do with this? What can we do with this synchronicity?

vid2-24:37

If that's perfected, if that can be perfected and you can cause things to happen. You've got a powerful mental instrument and what can you do with it? What would you do with it? If you had it, you'd probably say, well, I want to pick up the right book. I want to pick up the right book, or I want to run into the right person. Or I want to create a situation in which I'll know the answers on this. And of course I'd say there probably has to be some sort of challenge for you to make a decision in. But I believe that this happens as a result of a spiritual experience with some people. I think it comes naturally. So consequently, my point is that if you can pick up that sometime, pick up this Alan Vaughn's book, you'll get the impression down the road that you can, to some degree, you're not going to move mountains, but there are things that are done.

vid2-25:45

See Edward Bulwer-Lytton for "vril" , The Power of the Coming Race

One of LE's book, she talks about the word Vril. Have you ever heard that Vril was the art of the ancient people used to move stone own to cut big. You get out of the pyramid mids in Egypt, and these are huge blocks as there, and they are cut to precision. There's only one eighth inch of mortar and it's still in there what they put in it. And it looks like dental cement. It's a bureau fine. It looks like general cement. We have no idea exactly how they did it. But in Tibet, I saw this on television, I'd heard about it before and I thought, oh, this could be nonsense. But I heard that they had a method of lifting rock in Tibet with these big long horns they have. And they showed this one time on the tv, on the film. And what they did, they get a bunch of people with the horns and they get a few monks chanting, and you'd see this, they have a rope up on the cliff.

vid2-26:45

R: They had no road to get up there. They're building a monastery up there and pulling these big stones up. They looked like they'd be about five feet square. They had a cable or rope pulling it up. The next thing you'd see, they just take 'em up the slack when it would raise a little bit. And they kept blowing those horns. Now, this could have been a real con job. I mean it could have been a faked film or whatever, but I feel that the mind can be under certain conditions that powerful. And so consequently, I think that this is what a person has to do if they want to do anything with their mind is to work. Don't say, Hey, I'm going to go in there. I've had people say this to me. I'm going to give this one year, and if I'm not enlightened in a year's time, I'm leaving and some of I'm dead. You can't do that. It's almost like, let's take the possibility that there's a deity listening. And he says that guy's in fighting. I don't want him something of that sort. But that's a conclusion you can draw that there's a force that he runs. Contrary to his thing is you fight without any promise. You fight for this or death. And if you have that determination, I'm sure that you can make it. And once you make it, you'll get corroborations. You'll have little things that you can do that'll surprise you. Just like these.

vid2-28:26

Seeing people that I've had several people knew they were going to die because just because of an odor in a room or something. Yeah, go ahead. How common would you say it's for people to achieve this experience? Or how many people have you met in your lifetime to gone over?

vid2-28:46

R: I've met, I've met Paul Wood in Florida [No, Akron], which is the only person that I've really talked to outside of his zen master that I knew in Massachusetts, not Connecticut, I think it was in Connecticut. Yeah, right near New York City. Those are the only two that I know for sure could do whatever they wish with a human mind. But I have corresponded with people that I'm quite sure that they had superior experiences, didn't know how to teach it, didn't know how to go about telling somebody else how to arrive at it. And the simple formula is just make up your mind. In other words, all of you people are pushing for something. You're ready to dedicate four years of your life to learn how to make money off of people other people see, and you'll go through a lot, believe me, in order to get that degree and what you'll think is a superior stand in life. And really, you'll find out that you were innocent when you were young, but when you graduated from college, you weren't. Some faculties have taken away. Yeah.

Speaker 2

vid2-30:06

Have you never been scared of not finding that what you were searching for, for example? Well,

vid2-30:13

R: I realized there was a chance. The chances against me finding it, I knew that was possibly a thousand to one, maybe more than that. I intended to do it until I died. That was all. I tend to go after it. But there's lifestyle. There's a lifestyle that's behind it. You have to live a certain way. You can't indulge all of your whims and sexual appetites and that sort of thing. Yeah. There's the power. The power you generate.

Speaker 6

vid2-30:43

What exactly are we talking about?

Speaker 1

vid2-30:45

Huh?

Speaker 6

vid2-30:45

What exactly are you talking about? Can you just cover it real briefly or is it a really in depth?

vid2-30:51

R: No, I can't tell you exactly what I'm talking about. I have to search as you see what I'm doing. I'm trying to search as it is to give you some idea of what happens and how you get there. But my case will not be your case. Everybody. I can't say stand on your head two hours a day, eat marmalade or drink cider or that sort of thing. And you're going to don't eat meat. Don't kill any low animals. That has nothing to do with it has nothing to do with it at all. But you'll devise a system for yourself that'll be accurate just by backing away from the foolish, backing away from the things that distract you. And don't think you can take your wife with you or your family with you. It's not going to happen. Or your children. One of the saddest things I have was I came back and I saw, I knew my children, what they would do with their lives very clearly.

vid2-31:57

R: It was at one time that I re-experienced the thing very quickly, and it was in that period that I saw my son as being totally impossible spiritually. That's pretty hard to take because you love your family, so there's no common language. Your case, if you're interested in it, your case will be different from anything else. And when you come through it, you'll agree with a whole lot of stuff that's written in the spiritual manuals and all that sort of thing. He'll say, yes, there's been some people doing some good thinking, but it's vague when it gets translated and retranslated a few times. It gets to be political. I look upon the biggest part of the religions is political. I don't mean voting thing, voting politics, that sort of thing. But I mean, it is just like the guy in the army. He goes in, he wants to be a lieutenant or he wants to be a general, and you go into the religious business, you want to be a pope or you want to be the head honcho, whatever it is, whatever they call it. If someone dies without enlightenment, are they in danger

Speaker 6

vid2-33:08

If

vid2-33:08

R: They're, what?

Speaker 6

vid2-33:09

If someone dies without finding enlightenment,

vid2-33:12

R: Dies without it,

Speaker 6

vid2-33:12

Right? Are they in danger? Are they going to experience something bad or

vid2-33:17

R: Not bad? We are all stupid people. And this unreasonable to conceive that somebody with infinite intelligence is going to put a gun to our head and say, Hey, you either have the right answers, blow your brains out. Say or put you in hell. I don't believe in hell. There is no hell unless you get married. Sometimes I tell, yeah,

Speaker 2

vid2-33:44

There's no specific directions like drink, eat, mar related every day or your head. But there is our basic principles that stand behind it. Is this true

vid2-33:56

R: To do what?

Speaker 2

vid2-33:57

There are basic principles for a standard of living, for making it a lifestyle.

vid2-34:03

R: You mean in zen?

Speaker 2

vid2-34:04

Yeah.

vid2-34:07

R: Well, you would have to prove that to me. I'm asking you. Oh. Oh, I thought she said to worry. I thought she was making statements. I'm sorry. I'm asking the question. If you were studying with me, I would tell you how I thought you could do things. It would expedite, and some of them have to do with the loss of energy. Not to lose any energy. You need all of your energy to do this. You're going to walk through death, so you'll need some vitality. And there are things, the other thing is the truth. And I'm not saying that you have to be a fanatic and tell every policeman when you're doing one mile over the speed limit. See, that type of truth is not what we're talking about. We're talking about trying to find the reality behind life. What is this? Are we just animals moping around giving ourselves sensational ideas of life after death and sensational promises and sensational hopes and saying, all we have to do is believe, believe isn't dipped. You got to know. You got to know what you can do. Do

Speaker 6

vid2-35:19

You think western science never prove something like we incarnation do technology, perhaps technology.

vid2-35:28

R: I don't have any idea that western science could do that. I'll tell you what I've done though. I've done quite a bit of work with hypnosis trying to do that. And strangely, I have to be honest with you, I've never could get the one back to the day before birth. And this is where you have to go. And there's been other people, it's worked with it, but I've taken people back. You take 'em one year at a time or one year at a time. I remember this one party, I took 'em through high school from, if they were in college, I'd get their memory and say, what do you see now? What is this? This is 1992. I say, let's on the 7th of October, 1990, where were you? What do you remember? And nine chance out 10, they'd say, well, I was in college and I was doing something.

vid2-36:29

R: Or I'd say, maybe they can't remember the exact dates. So well, okay, in 1980, who was your teacher in school? How would I know? Let's say? And yet they would start and remember. And then by getting the grades that they could remember, like 18 89, 19 89, they'd remember the teacher and I'd just take them back and they'd tell who was sitting in front of them, who was sitting on the other side of them. And so you get 'em clear back to year one when they're 1-year-old and say, now we're going to get back another year from today. See? And where are you? What do you see? See? But I was very successful in clearing people's heads up because I remember this one, it was a friend of my wife's, and she's a good subject. She also had been injured in an automobile accident and had epileptic spells as the result of it.

vid2-37:30

R: And so I put her to sleep and started her back through the grade high school, who's the teacher? And she'd tell me, she sat my math teacher. That's my So going back. But we did it for hours getting back. Then I woke her up and I said, okay, who was your teacher in the first, second, third grade? Or say third grade? And she'd say, I don't know. What do you expect me to know that for? I find clear up into the seventh and eighth grade. She knew maybe one teacher at the head of the class, something like that. And I'd say, was it Mr. So-and-So? Yes. How did you know? I said, I'll tell you later. How about this other grade? Who was the boy sitting in front of you? She'd say, geez, I can't remember that stuff. I said, Johnny, so-and-so. Yeah. How did you know?

vid2-38:24

Well, I told her after a while. I said, you told me under hypnosis. So she was telling me that I went through this routine to see if she's telling me the truth or the facts or I was missing, see getting missing. But the thing was that it scared her a little, but I knew she was L at ease. And I thought to myself, I got to do something for her. She's helped me in this bit of research. And suppose we'll give her a suggestion that she's not going to have epileptic spells. Well, under hypnotic procedure, you don't say somebody's not going to have something. You have to phrase that in a positive manner. And you say, you will be free of the epileptic spells from now on. So it was good for a year. She never took a spell for a year because my wife was able to keep track of her. And a solid year, I don't know how far beyond that, but for a solid year that we kept track of her, she never had a spell. So you can do a lot of good things while you're carrying on your research and on reincarnation, that sort of thing.

Speaker 6

vid2-39:29

Would you say the best path to enlightenment is just

vid2-39:32

Increasing your awareness of everything yourself?

R: You search, and then in your process of your search, the first thing you do is establish a ways and means committee. Ways and means, ways and means. That means how many hours you're going to spend, where you're going to do it, what things you're going to concentrate on, what efforts you're going to put out. Are you going to be celibate? Are you going to be horsing around? Okay, you're going to put your whole self in it. So if you're going to put your whole self on it, you're going to be celibate.

vid2-40:06

See, and you can always have the ambition and the desire to know the truth about everything, but if you keep postponing it by every act of sex, well, you might be 90 years old before you really don't need sex anymore. You might get the answer, who knows? But that's the ways of me. This is the reason down through the age is people got into aesthetic practices. Asceticism in itself is saying, all of my energy's going in this direction. No other direction. See, no booze, no cigarettes. Don't burn your lungs out. You need your body see to survive. It's a battle you're in. That's just the beginning. But for men, you'll tell yourself what to do. You'll say, let's go to this. Let's read this book. Let's see what I can get out of this book. What can I get out of tit and Buddhism? What can I do? Maybe even a hypnosis, a lot of psychological work you can do with a group of people And consult people and consult people too incidentally, if a person's interested in that and they get into it and they want to call me on the phone, I'll respond. I'll tell you. I'll give you what advice I think is valid.

Speaker 2

vid2-41:35

I'm sure, of course, you've done a lot of meditation. What are your

Speaker 1

vid2-41:40

Experiences with internal energy? With what? Internal energy, internal energy this is?

R: Huh? I don't know anything about it. The character like this. Alright, I don't know. I know. How about when it's like this? Kundalini? Is that what you mean? Kundalini?

Speaker 2

vid2-42:00

I don't know.

vid2-42:01

R: See, these are words. This is the reason I'm talking plain. I'm talking plain. These are all things I presume that require absent. Absent. So control. See,

Speaker 2

vid2-42:14

That's how I go.

Speaker 1

vid2-42:18

When you aren't ab too much, you lose your achieve. When you do that, you lose your achieve, you lose your abstinence. Right? Well, that's alright if you want to call it that. See, I don't have any proof of that. The word, I was just curious what had not abstinence. I can't do anything about she because I never met the man. Yeah.

vid2-42:46

Well, that's what you get. Basically, the only thing is the energy goes up instead of down. Should the person be concerned with safety in doing this? Should it be with a group of people who know what they're doing? The person, I believe that if you ever attempted to go into a trance by yourself, you should have some company. You should have somebody that knows what to do. See, and that party then can bring you out of it. But I don't think, see, the strange thing was I believe that I was sent to Seattle on a fool's errand. I went out there to get married. That's the fact of the matter. It was a sour deal. So I went back to the hotel room and started reading the books in the library about yoga and that sort of thing. And that's when it happened. I was at peace with myself.

vid2-43:38

R: I was tickled to death that this girl turned me down because I was free once more. But the thing was that I had nobody to call. There was nobody in that town that I could call for help. And I was sure not going to disturb my family, my parents, because they would just go bonkers trying to figure out how to get to me. And so I just canceled it out. But what was happening anyhow, I couldn't stop it. And I often thought, you're put in a position where you can't run because you have to die. You have to go through the death and the death is hell. Its you're facing the thoughts of extinction are not too easy to sit with. That's all. Yeah.

Speaker 5

vid2-44:28

Is spirituality or the of your energy, is that more than, say if you're following a career or how would you balance the two? You're looking to be a functional person, do a

Speaker 1

vid2-44:44

Certain thing,

Speaker 5

vid2-44:44

But you're also looking

vid2-44:46

R: No, no, I don't. Do not try to be a functional person. No. I do a lot of things, but I don't have any plans. I'm going to give you an example. We have a group in Columbus, Ohio, and there was always, one boy was appointed as a monitor. I went up to give a talk and there was two men come in, were, well, one of 'em had been in the group for a long time and he had dropped out and started another group up and they were trying to put me on the spot. So they would come in with the tablets and it was like legal tablets, yellow paper. And I was going to ask me the questions and get there to prove me wrong by my own tricks. And so he said to me, Mr. Rose, how are we going to tie this together with a marriage and social life and profession?

vid2-45:45

I said, you don't tie it to anything. This is the most important thing. And that's what you do. So he's married, he's got several kids. See, I presume the man with him was too. And I said, you know this yourself. You've been around that long. This is not something that you bargain with as much as to say, well God, I'll give, if you give me enlightenment within two years, well then I'll work for you for four. Maybe I'll get out and preach on the corner or something for four years. No, that doesn't work that way. You fight your way through the rocks or whatever it is.

Speaker 6

vid2-46:24

Why does sex seem to be an obstacle in everyone's road? True you mean?

R: No, you never sensed that. Pardon? You've never sensed that. You think?

Speaker 6

vid2-46:34

Yeah. I'm asking why does that one thing seem to be a distraction? Somebody tell me. What is it about it that makes it so powerful in that sense?

Speaker 1

vid2-46:53

R: Well, your function is reproduction, producing fertilizers for the earth. You have no children. Once you raise your children, you'll find, you'll think, that's my kid. Oh, what a beautiful baby. 20 years later you'll say, what the hell is this? And you realize you've been a door. You're a door through it. That child comes and that love for the child is nature. Female cats. We got a female cat back on a farm now she's got two second set of kittens in about two months, and she thinks she's important. That cat, her whole being is into surviving herself while bringing in meat enough to make milk for those kittens. She loves them. So

Speaker 6

vid2-47:46

That's one big natural obstacle.

vid2-47:49

R: So what happens is she's tied to that. She's tied to that. That's all. And that's the reason I say try to get whatever knowledge you can get before you get hung up. Because every marriage will have a situation that can stop you. I'll tell you a little story, to give you an example, going driving to Pittsburgh to give talks like this in Pitt and Duquesne and some places like that. And there was a guy riding with me. In fact, sometimes he'd drive me a little Volkswagen, we'd drive it. It was cheaper on gas and one day he didn't show up. We'd meet and we'd park our cars in the parking lot of A&P store and we'd drive ride together. One day he didn't show up, and I knew his wife, his young fellow had just got married. I knew his wife was not, she didn't approve of what he was doing because she was devout Catholic.

vid2-48:54

And she thought anything else would be maybe negative or the devil's work or something. And I could see the point, but I only saw her once and never talked to her. So he pulled up and he didn't show up. So I thought, well, he's done. He's not coming. And so I stopped at the A&P store anyhow, I thought, well, I'll wait if he was here, he come, he showed up. That was the next week. So he got in, he wasn't talking. He was a little ashamed of himself for not having an excuse for being there the week before. And I turned and looked at him and I said, I'm going to tell you what happened. I said, the reason you didn't come last week, I said, your wife said, why do you have to go up there and you say, this is important to my spiritual work?

vid2-49:46

Well, she says, I'm stuck here with a baby and et cetera, et cetera, and I don't like to be alone. And he said to her, well, this is for my soul. I'm doing this to try to enhance my soul position, but if you insist I will sacrifice this search for my soul, for you and the child. And she says, I insist. See? And he looked at me and he was driving. He just turned halfway around and he said, that is exactly what she said. See, I never saw him again. I read in the paper later he became a chiropractor and went to Florida, moved down to Florida. But this is the reason that sex is not evil. You go out and this is what I did. I had a waterfall on the farm and I'd get down the waterfall and stand on ice and wash from the water. The shower was coming from the rock above, stood under a shower, a waterfall, and got washed. Never bothered me. I was always in good health. Never built a fire except to cook food in the winter.

vid2-51:03

I just throw a blanket around. I'd sit there and read half of the day and the night reading Blavatsky book or somebody's book, anything. Focus your mind back in, get your mind thinking along those lines. Yeah. Is fire walking explainable by the same Tmobile? Fire walking is explained by the same thing as this holding your mind a certain way. This is how that's done. In other words, you will feel you can do it. And if you push through and do it once, you'll be able to do it all the time. There was a fellow in up in Ohio that used to fire, walk on a fire. And we had him down to the farm one time to give a talk. And I was curious. I said, what state of mind are you in when you walk on that fire? And he said, he laughed. He said, I wasn't in any state of mind, I was drunk, but you got to pick this up. He was indifferent. He was totally indifferent. See? But since then though he doesn't get drunk. He can walk on it. And sometimes, what was he? He does these tricks where he lays on the bed of spikes and has somebody put weights on him and stuff. They don't touch him.

Speaker 5

vid2-52:25

Is the energy that you use sexually, the same energy that you use creatively, such as an art

vid2-52:31

Or something, if you're using it in the art, are I kind of think that some of the art I've seen, if it was done from sexual energy, they must've been very degraded sexually. I've never seen too much good art. They get away with it. They call it surrealism.

Speaker 5

vid2-52:51

Well, what I was thinking of is if you're using that energy up, like when you're doing the section using an energy,

Speaker 1

vid2-52:59

And so if you turn that energy towards spiritually, then of course it's easier, right? So if you're using it creatively, because it's still energy, if you're using, you think it'd help the painting, you mean, right? Oh, that's possible. You could focus better. You could focus better.

Speaker 5

vid2-53:14

Is that taking away from the, is it taking away from the spiritual

Speaker 1

vid2-53:17

R: If you're using, no, I don't think there's a quantum that we say that you're going to lose. It's a quality. The mind changes, the brain changes. The body gets immune. There's immunities build up. And sometimes there's things happen, as you might call them miraculous. I've had things happen, say, wow, wonder how that happened? Glad it happened. But the mechanics, I couldn't explain.

Speaker 2

vid2-53:46

If sex will decrease your energy, what can you do to increase it?

Speaker 1

vid2-53:53

A&P Well, you exercise. Exercise will increase your energy like running a couple miles. You should keep your body healthy. You should keep your body healthy. Yeah.

Speaker 2

vid2-54:07

Are we all talking about the same energy here?

Speaker 1

vid2-54:10

I don't know. You've got Latin words for it that I can't translate.

Speaker 7

vid2-54:14

I like to ask you if there is another mention to it in life, why there is so much way with the daily life once there is so many people who were so much involved in all the things that try to find that older

Speaker 1

vid2-54:32

Dimension. I don't quite understand you. Do you mean why are people trying to get ahead

Speaker 7

vid2-54:42

If there is another dimension, why there's so much obstacles, such a waste of

Speaker 1

vid2-54:51

Why all so much? What? Obstacles? Obstacles. I don't know. I agree.

R: This is like being trapped in a rat's nest. Yeah. Yeah. This is, no, I can't see anything beautiful about it. I can't see, sure. I've seen my wife's babies born and they're very beautiful. But these are unfortunate. A little beings brought into a rat's nest. They're going to run into all hell. It's going to break loose in their life. Everybody goes through hell. Why? This isn't a place to be? And I think possibly some of this negative hell that visits this is almost a prod to get 'em to think about. Nobody knows there's life after death. They may say they believe it, but believing is talking to yourself and trying to convince yourself, knowing it as something else. Knowing means you've got to walk across and back.

Speaker 7

vid2-55:55

And another question, do you use a dream to have a better understanding of what you call the absolute self?

Speaker 1

vid2-56:05

A dream?

Speaker 7

vid2-56:05

Yeah. How dreams useful?

Speaker 1

vid2-56:11

R: No, I can't say that. I mean, I would be suspicious. A dream can't be proven. In fact, if I dreamed a perfect dream about what I visited and hadn't already known that it was a mirror. In other words, if a person dreams that they've visited the absolute and they give you a definition, there's no guarantee at all that that's related at all. Because first of all, your head and the entities that are really trying to touch your energy, well sometimes give you visions as people had visions and they thought it was coming from heaven. And I'll give you an example. June of Ark, we used to read about Joan of Arc in history in a Catholic history. And she could almost perform little miracles. And yet she had a miserable time. They burned her to death. See? So my guess is that you don't have to take risks just to find the real answer. And you don't want to delude yourself with the interpretation of dreams either. It's nice if they prove themselves, but to second guess them. See, I maintain that when you get into this few feet, you start to realize that you're on the track. Things will come to you. You'll get hunches and there'll be hunches that you can try. And if they don't work, you can put them aside. But invariably they'll try. I think that there's forces work with you, but you have to show enough determination that you're not going to flunk out once you start.

Speaker 5

vid2-57:59

Do you believe that someone could follow their hunches and end up being misled by people's spirit?

R: Well, it's possible. You can follow your hunches anytime. It'd be wrong. I don't say your hunches are right. This is one of the things, correcting the intuition. We do not discover wisdom with logic. Logic will not bring you wisdom. Intuition is the faculty. One. Faculty we have can do with abstract condit.

=== File vid3 ===
Time: 53 minutes

vid3-00:01

R: And that can't be described. See? Yes. Can't logic give you a jumping off point, so to speak? Common sense I'd say would Sure You don't, don't do foolish things, and there's a lot of foolish things people do in this. It's just like a lot of people like to tie vegetarianism with it. That's all right if they want to do that, but that verges on asceticism. The only thing is that the bad thing about eating meat is that today you don't know where it's been. I heard does he go out in Wisconsin that's going into making damer burgers? So be careful.

Speaker 2

vid3-00:48

Don't you feel that like an attempt to be a vegetarian is an effort to act compassionately

Speaker 1

vid3-00:54

R: Towards other living things? You can tie it together if you wish, but I think the main reason you do it if you're philosophic, is you do it to clear up your brain, your mind, so to speak, so that you can think better. You do things to, I understand that people that eat meat don't have the patience to think along certain lines that a vegetarian has, and I am not arguing with that. See,

Speaker 2

vid3-01:25

Don't you think that there's a spiritual feeling to know that you're not behaving violently towards other living things?

R: No. No.

Q. You don't think that?

vid3-01:35

R: No. There's nothing spiritual about nut killing. There's nothing spiritual about nut killing. Is it possible to act compassionately then and live? We should shoot the cat because it kills the mouse.

Q. ... a bourgeois pig ...

R: huh?

Speaker 2

vid3-01:55

Can you act compassionately and choose to live as a bourgeois pig or as someone who's totally consumptive without any awareness of what their consumption does to other people who have to sacrifice to provide the pigs today?

Speaker 1

vid3-02:07

R: I don't know. Everybody in this world is a bourgeois pig then, because we take a piece out of somebody every day and you people are all studying for a profession to learn how to clip people for enormous amounts of money. See? See? So is that a bourgeois pig? In other words, what's worse taken to an extreme? Yeah, sure. Huh?

Speaker 3

vid3-02:34

Why? I really can't hear why

Speaker 1

vid3-02:42

Difference? Passivity. Passivity. Be passive. Passive. That's the way you should feel. You're a woman. Women should be passive. Men should be active. They make good wives, huh? Oh, women love to suffer. A lot of 'em are masochists. Huh? You don't like to suffer. Well, you got to get tough. You got to get tough.

R: No, no. What I am saying about this business of killing, if you've got rats running around your house and they bite one of your children, he is, but get a disease. See? So we can't weigh everything in terms of killing. I think there was a biblical quotation on that too, that there was no objection to killing the fish. For instance, they were a nice little fish. Why should Christ went out and brought in a bunch of fish and ate them? Maybe he could eat cornmeal or something. See, but the idea is that we do not kill - God kills.

vid3-04:06

We do not kill. We're damn lucky to do anything with stuff is just thrown in front of us every day and we react the best we can. But I'm saying to get down and say, to make a law that you can't kill this or that, or one time you could only kill ones with a cloven hoofs perfectly. All right. Ones with a horse hoof. Don't kill 'em. See, this don't make any sense, and yet we kill each other. Don't kid yourself about brutality. The human race is the most brutal killer on the face of the earth, and he maybe has to do it to survive the

Q. To refine people,

R: huh?

Q. Then he doesn't try to refine people. Refine.

R: Refinement is a definition that you have to, you're picking for yourself. All of us don't know refinement. Some guy might be covered over with ulcers or chancres or God knows what, but he still may be a spiritual person. Holy people are not beautiful. They paint pictures with halos around them, but they may have been very ugly. See, they may not have been refined. See, in other words what you're saying, why can't we be nice? What do you mean by nice? Nothing's nice. We

Speaker 3

vid3-05:34

Develop humanity by defining, by being most sensitive.

Speaker 1

vid3-05:41

R: People who are refined are looked upon as potential victims by most other people. If you're kind, you'll be exploited. So inside the school and defining human being, that beauty, the human being, that's a talk to your spiritual trait because of the simple fact that you're defining it in advance. You're defining something you don't have yet as being beautiful and spiritual and all this sort of thing. You don't know what that type of behavior will take you, especially when it seems like the people that make the greatest strides are they suffer the most because they're egos. It takes a tremendous egos. You've got a little ego there. You think you're a legislator for refinement, want everybody to be nice according to some God knows what formula, but isn't one of the principal

Speaker 2

vid3-06:40

The fundamental. If you're going to achieve enlightenment and you achieve a oneness of things, things you realize, things are interdependent, things are infuse that you as a person and what you do, you're connected with everything else. You can only

vid3-06:58

R: Pick that up in nice stories. The only thing that you become is God, and it matters whether this place is 10 feet in manure. Those guys that walk through that or fight through that are the ones that reach someplace and those that want to just say, let's dress up the earth because it's got manure all over it. See, people aren't nice. That part doesn't matter. I mean, there is no formula for this that requires us to change our human behavior. In other words, sure. I'll say in some regards, something will accelerate our spiritual growth, but being nice to the neighbor or being nice to the little animals or painting pretty pictures. This is really maybe a hindrance because it's a business of playing that by being nice, you're not going to be an animal. We're going to rise above the animals with all this niceness. Always,

Speaker 3

vid3-08:13

Always niceness to be cruel human. I can't hear you too much. I'm sorry. Cruel. Another human being to be cruel to another human being. I think it's to watch cruel. How about another animal? Yes, he, first he would,

vid3-08:53

R: We got pets, we got cats and dogs, and those dogs are killers and those cats are killers. And then we're trying to tell ourselves we shouldn't kill anything because we're afflicted with attacks by viruses and everything. This is a dog eat dog society. But it's so,

Speaker 3

vid3-09:13

And I think that we had 6 million in the most evil, most vicious way, and here is the pistol, and I don't know how people don't associate things that humanity already condemned because we condemned azi. Yet the people are able to create the same kind of whether it's against one individual or a group of people, and I think the religion and the movement is to prevent the recurrence of the watch, how they wind up,

Speaker 1

vid3-10:05

R: Watch how those beautiful religions wind up. Isn't the bloodiest wars on this planet were in ancient times were fought by religious people. The crusades, for instance, sent out children to be butchered, so God changed his mind. This was stupidity because they didn't really know what God wanted.

Speaker 4

vid3-10:26

But you used the Bible before. What

Speaker 1

vid3-10:28

About the verse that says God is love? Or do you I don't send it in. Maybe somebody else send it in. Just have beautiful babies and be happy. Yeah.

Speaker 5

vid3-10:50

Might you consider, however, that in some circumstances that engaging in damage to other other mentalities could be a distraction and a waste of energy, and on that basis, you should refrain or avoid from engaging in activity like

Speaker 1

vid3-11:13

R: That how you do it when nations are doing it. See, this is a whole thing.

Speaker 5

vid3-11:19

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. What I'm saying is should we refrain from activity like that?

R: Because we're not doing this. This is nonsense. We're not crowding the ozone layer. This is the human races doing it. That's what I'm saying. It happens. Yes, but are you going to change it with your talk? You think your talk is going to change that or my talk is going to change it? Are you think that the happiness is going to give you spiritual?

Q. We're talking about spiritual enlightenment now, not politics.

R: Well, you can't be talking about spiritual enlightenment. You don't know what it is. You don't know whether planting carrots or killing rabbits is going to take you to heaven. I'm not talking about that.

Speaker 5

vid3-11:57

I'm talking about, you talked about saving energy for yourself because energy needed to go beyond. As you have said, you have said that energy is required and some things, like you said, sex for example, and other activities waste our energy. And for those reasons, we should not engage in things which waste our energy because we need that energy to go beyond. As you said,

Speaker 1

vid3-12:19

If you did everything that you thought might waste your energy, you would atrophy in one position.

R: This is silly. You're trying to instruct the world. This is a mad house. This is a mad house. You might as well relax. We're trying to do something. Find a definition of why this is a mad house. Not I'm saying to one person, if you want to get ahead, then you watch your energy. I'm not saying to the masses they can do what they please, but because the simple fact, I know that there's no benefit. Humanity will not benefit from me telling them to do something when they are programmed for a toboggan ride downhill. See, what

Speaker 5

vid3-13:08

You're saying is you can't generalize and say that's true of everybody, but

Speaker 1

vid3-13:13

R: It might be true of individual. I really can't see any point in how you're equating a esoteric experience with doing something nice. That's all. Because we can't define it. You can't define good or bad. This is one of the errors. Huh?

Speaker 5

vid3-13:32

I wasn't talking about good or bad. I was talking about conserving energy and waste energy.

Speaker 1

vid3-13:36

R: Yeah, but I mean you wove that around there because you still wanted to bring out your point of not ruining the environment. That's what your main point was.

Q. That wasn't my main point. My main point is wasting energy and yeah, what do you have?

Q. Can women be enlightened?

R: Huh?

Q Can women be enlightened?

R: Yes. Yes. Enlightenment final.

R: Yes, yes. Once then you're assert, you know that what will happen when you die. That's definite and final no matter what you do with your life. But of course, once this happens, you won't be too eager to do anything. Well, death is constant. Huh? Death is constant. There's always present life. Well, I'm asking. Well, there's always somebody dying, if that's what you mean.

Speaker 4

vid3-14:23

Q. Is it enlightenment, a change, a consciousness?

Speaker 1

vid3-14:26

R: Well, I wouldn't say a change. It's a realization that before this there was error and now there's nothing but fact left. Huh? Are you there? No energy left once you away?

vid3-14:42

R: I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say it's a different form. You don't have a body. We talk about energy. We're talking about kinetic energy, I presume. See that isn't there. You can think and it'll happen from the other side. This is one thing. First thing I did was to see what I could do and all I had to do was think about it and it would appear. So it was a different type of energy has to be after your enlightenment experience. The first thing you did was see what you could do. No, no, not after my enlightenment. In the period that what I, across whatever I wanted to see, I could see. So it was basically a discovery. Yes. Sure, sure. I had no, you can't have precon. This is the trouble. The reason people are not getting enlightened is because religion, all these religions are telling people to believe you got it made. Just believe you got it. Made nonsense. They haven't found out anything. See, believe me, I've stuck my nose very deeply into the Christian religion,

Speaker 6

vid3-15:55

Q. Sir, out of body experiences, right? Is that one way of trying to find, enlightenment it that way?

vid3-16:03

R: Well, I'll say, I'll tell you, that's a good start. That's a very good start because it's very similar to that. Only thing is that out of the body experiences, that it's basically a astral body. It's an astral body that crosses, but it shows the indestructibility of the human being because in that aral body, nothing can bother them. Nothing can harm them. Although I have read things by KY and a few other people who said, you have to be careful that there are entities that can attack you in Midflight or something like that. But have you read the fellow that wrote Life After Life, moody, what is his name?

vid3-16:46

Q. Moody. Moody. Raymond Moody.

R: Yeah. He was studied cases. The reason he wrote the book was because it happened to him. He's a medical doctor, I think maybe a psychiatrist, and I think he was on one of these talk shows in which they interviewed a bunch of people that had died and returned. And I thought it was very interesting. Of course, moody didn't have too much to say except that he had been studying this stuff himself. But one fellow had fell out an airplane about a thousand feet or so, and landed on his head, survived it, survived it, and they was asking him how he reacted to it and had to rebuild his face. Bones crushed in his face.

vid3-17:38

R: But they had several people, truck drivers, several truck drivers who had been in accidents, but their stories were rather consistent that there's a different, if you want to take a hundred cases of people who were killed and brought back, you'll have five or 10 categories. One of 'em is the tunnel of light. And I've run into people that said they found themselves in a tunnel and they'd see a light in the distance. And when he got through the tunnel, then of course there was a figure there, which they interpreted to be Jesus Christ or their father or a dead relative waiting for them. But they seem to fall into categories. I've read hundreds of cases of people that were knocked out and saw it went through this tunnel of light. Then there's others that wind up in the middle of a field someplace a beautiful field, and somebody walks up to 'em and tells 'em, come on, we're going to go from here to someplace else.

Speaker 6

vid3-18:47

R: What happens though, when you're sleeping, say when you're sleeping or in, and you see yourself outside of your body, kind, aware that you're in your body or that your body's there, but point of view is from a different place

vid3-19:02

In that kind of stuff is that you'll find people, if you look for 'em that have been in car wrecks and stuff, have been pronounced dead practically, and then they come back and they tell you this is what they saw from the ceiling. They watch their own operation and stuff.

vid3-19:20

There's a lot of literature to the fact that you don't have to have a near death experience that by accident or training, this can happen in a sleep state in

vid3-19:31

Fairly unquote routine. Well, you got to determine between what is a dream and the person that's telling the story. You can't determine that because if somebody's always going to say, I don't believe you, I don't believe, believe that you just dreamed it. It was a very, very compelling dream. See, whereas the way you can prove it is if like moody, if he went out of his body and headed for Washington dc he was from down here someplace, Alabama or somewhere below here, he goes up. But when he first went out the window, he recognized people on the street and could name them. See, now that means that his eyes, his eyeballs is going with him. See what I mean? On the other hand, if you say, well, I dreamt that my body was out of the bed or in a corner or something like that, if something happened, the spirit did something or somebody saw the spirit besides yourself, then you got something validated. This is what you have to go by because you know that people can dream and imagine a lot of stuff. What do you believe that that is not

Speaker 6

vid3-20:41

Q. Experience when you're in, what would you try and find things? If you think maybe that's a possible state that you can try and find a

vid3-20:52

R: Life in, what would you try to do or what you try to be aware of? Well, once you go to sleep, you can't do anything. I mean, I think it'd be very difficult to summon your will once you go to sleep dream, huh? Well, you don't meditate. We're talking about the consciousness. And once you're asleep and you have a dream, if you can alter that dream with the sleeping body, then you're not out of your body. And even if you see it, if you see it and don't try to order it, you still don't know it's your buddy. You might just dream that that be part of a dream. The thing is that you have to have some validation that has to be critical enough, and that's the reason that they caught it. They look for death experiences who valid enough to

Speaker 6

vid3-21:41

Q. You and you wanted to try and see how can you reach this state and what you're supposed to learn from. What do you think you would go for or try and be not aware

vid3-21:54

R: Of, but look out for? In other words, you're thinking, how could you amplify that and maybe make something out of it? That what you mean?

vid3-22:02

Yeah. Well, I think you could think about it, but I don't think that you could do it. I just don't think that you can change a dream. The danger, of course, is that you might even develop more complex dreams. It would be more convincing and still more convincing. But you see the reason, one thing about it is I think that once you die, once there's absolutely no consciousness. Then you're not dreaming, and they can, I think, actually monitor the sleeping person until when they start dreaming, and that could be really checked. It could put a wire you up and check to see if there's sometimes the eye movement tips 'em off that they're dreaming. See a little flutter on the eyes. So if you're dreaming, then it's not valid, but I know what you're thinking. How could we transfer this into a genuine total experience and no, understand what the human soul is. See, I've never heard of it coming about that way. I thought meditation. Well, I think meditation. But see, the thing is, again, controlling meditation. The minds have to wonder under meditation. See, and it is just like this idea, this concept of holiness or sweetness or niceness. That's an ego trip. That's an ego trip, and that's a barrier. That's all. That's a barrier to it. And so consequently, what we're doing is struggling for sledgehammers to knock us out of this body so that we can know that we're out of the body, know that the body's unconscious, not dreaming at the point of death, in fact.

Speaker 2

vid3-24:01

So would you consider the experience of astral projection to be helpful or a hindrance if it's achieved?

R: Well, I'll tell you one thing. It shows that you're not just the body. There is something beside the body here. So there's an ability, and that's the reason I think the spurs is concocted these different realms. If maybe they're true. That's the astral dimension. The astral body takes you through the astral dimension, but you're not any smarter when you come back. And then there's a causal dimension that people get into. And the things that you can do there is you can do about anything you want to do. Yeah,

Speaker 7

vid3-24:47

Q. Be smart when you come back. Isn't, life isn't enlighten.

Speaker 1

vid3-24:53

R: I mean, if I as discovering facts? No, not facts. Not facts. Just realization. Just a realization of what you really are. Now I can tell you what you discover. That's the reason I made this thing up here. The human soul is in that. I drew that circle. It looks like a crayon, but it's the best way I can figure. The human soul doesn't die, but it enters a larger soul. It enters a larger soul. And you don't have, you're not disillusioned by any chance that you own the place when you get there. See what I mean? But this is the equivalent. We can use the word God. It's rather loosely because no one shows up and says, I'm God. But you enter a larger soul dimension and within that realm you have power and activity. But what goes on after that? I didn't say that long. See, discovering our soul merges with another soul, which we call God

Speaker 7

vid3-26:03

By talking about leaves. Again, some leaves take form of a vision. Describe it as if it's something that you are sense. And how would you consider that? I mean, you said

vid3-26:20

R: You should keep a tablet besides your bed and write every dream down is every detail that you're can think of. You'll be surprised what you're working at nighttime too.

Speaker 7

vid3-26:30

Well, I mean something to pick the form of the vision, and some of these visions would describe facts

vid3-26:37

R: Exactly the way they happened. Sure. As if it's a graphic picture.

Speaker 7

vid3-26:42

What would be your explanation?

vid3-26:45

R: I was talking earlier about synchronicity. These things start to happen when you get interested in esoteric philosophy and go after, pledge yourself to the truth. You'll get things that are real. They're not nightmares. See what I mean? You'll get some real views. But the best way, and I used to do this, I wrote down all my dreams. The only thing that ever came of the years and years I spent writing down my dreams was that I saw them planting a flag on the moon before they did it. I have it still in the little notebook on these stenographic notebooks, a spiral wire through it.

vid3-27:23

And it happened pretty much the way, of course, there was no people, I didn't recognize that. People just like I saw that people do this, but it wasn't a revelation. It was just a dream. I don't say it was a spiritual experience, just a dream, but it could be a coincidence. See, and that's synchronicity. That's what they call synchronicity. But see, I maintain that you can use this synchronicity. You can cause things to happen. It's not going to have any benefit for your salvation or spiritual gain. It's just that these things are possible. And I often think sometimes they're bait, they're bait, little talents. You want to play with the talent, see what you can see under while you're having this death experience or while you're dreaming and that kind of stuff. So some entities or something, throw some of this garbage in your head, entertain you and get you ego egotistical enough to go out and preach about it. See?

Speaker 4

vid3-28:21

So it ends up becoming a block. Paranormal powers could end up becoming a block.

vid3-28:26

R: I think they a bait. I think they can become a bait. Yeah. Because they don't, as you know how old I am, and I've been watching this stuff and making notes on it all my life and my dreams didn't give me an indication. I had a greater wisdom while I was dreaming, when I was awake. See? So if I'd had them when I was awake, I'd want to question it. What made me think that or what made me see it? Have you ever tried mentally to get

Speaker 8

vid3-28:58

Back to that state?

vid3-29:03

R: No. And yes, sometimes I try, but I mean, as far as making a career, I don't do anything with the purpose of The reason is if you go back through it, you go through hell again. You go through hell again to get there. And I'm close enough without going through hell.

Speaker 8

vid3-29:25

After that experience, your life was pretty clear and

vid3-29:27

Didn't, have you lost the faith years that you used to carry? Was that something you experienced?

R: No. There's an old, old, say before the experience. The mountains look like mountains and valleys look like valleys. But after the experience, the mountains are once more mountains than the valleys. There's a magic change in which the mountains disappear. All the things we consider facts disappear, but then when we wake up, here's the mountains back again, which were fiction under the experience. See, and that's the way it has to be. We're tied to this mental belief system. So the only thing that changes is your sense of purpose and also that knowledge that you've been there, so you have more certainty. Well, that's enough. That's enough. I went to get proof of permanence or life after death, and I found it. And of course I spent some time talking about it sometimes, but I don't have any, there's no mechanics that I want to get into on it. I believe the things that I'm advising, for instance, I don't tell people how live. I say, if you want to try to shoot for an enlightenment, you have to live a certain way. There's no two ways about it. I'm not saying everybody has to do that. Just people that say, I'm going a hundred percent.

vid3-30:56

R: Then you're starting to negate the physical body. Then the physical body holds your attention all the time. And if it ain't your physical body, it's somebody else's physical body, it's going to hold your attention. So you've got to be able to transcend that. That's all. And some people have said, well, once you can transcend and you don't need to pay attention to it, then it's alright to go ahead and indulge it. I'm a little bit suspicious of that too. Are you

Speaker 2

vid3-31:21

Recommending it?

vid3-31:22

R: Huh? Are you

Speaker 2

vid3-31:23

Recommending it?

vid3-31:24

R: Recommending what?

vid3-31:29

Sure. Why is the purpose of election you trying? Are you recommending the,

R: no, I don't know. This is a shot in the dark. This lecture is a shot in the dark. I know about Zen. I've experienced things in it and perhaps there's a lot of books on Zen, but there's stuff you don't get from the books, and that's the action. And so I'm just furnishing information. That's all. Does it take particularly strong physical sobriety in order to withstand this kind of experience? Again, I think you should be healthy. Yeah. I think you should be healthy because I know that you go through hell. You'll go through hell at times.

Speaker 7

vid3-32:11

What makes you feel so certain that you really went behind this realization that you are under? If you got this enlightment, what makes you believe that you went out body and came back in?

vid3-32:28

R: Well, I can't prove it to you. I know this right,

Speaker 7

vid3-32:33

But what makes you feel so serv?

Speaker 1

vid3-32:36

R: Well, because of the things I saw when I was there and the things that I could cause to be. First of all, I didn't want to do anything or see anything. I was just tremendously happy. And I thought, this is wonderful. See, and of course the things were going through, this is something that I observed in hindsight that my mind was with me. My physical memory was still with me. And this is important because if the mind, the brain is just a flaw of flesh, you go unconscious. There's no way we're getting your consciousness if it's locked into this flesh alone. So that's the reason I put the one circle inside the other. The human mind has to go across whole being has to be inside the soul of what we call God. We use that word God because we don't know, but we know we're encapsuled in something greater and we can only operate within its environments to say same as we can only operate in this place. That's the reason when people were talking about trying to change people. I think it's a waste of time because there's a bigger burden up ahead. And that's saving each man, saving themselves and not trying to say what the, trying to define the techniques or the things that we should avoid or do because we're created into a madhouse. This is a madhouse. There's nothing beautiful about it. And to try to make it beautiful is secondary to me. The only thing that I've ever seen that's beautiful is generate any negative.

vid3-34:21

R: How do you know it's negative? See all of this stuff, nobody kills. See, nobody is capable of defining negative or positive, the things that some one man is going to define as negative, another man considers as beautiful. It's saintly. See,

vid3-34:45

R: The thing is we don't define the same. That's the trouble. People on this earth do not define it. You can't get a common definition. See, I have a question about something. You said earlier. You said women were passive. What did you mean by that? Oh, that's terrible, isn't it? That women are passive? How did I know? I was asking What do you mean by passive? Well, you know what passive is? They're not aggressive. They play a smooth role instead of coming out fighting. See, they're not dominating. They're not supposed to be. Excuse me. We've got a generation coming up that they're not passive. I'll grant you that.

Speaker 3

vid3-35:34

I'm,

Speaker 6

vid3-35:38

I have never been accused of being passive in

vid3-35:44

My family who ever have been. And I know a lot of women that aren't passive, believe me, but they're not spiritual. Yes.

Speaker 9

vid3-36:02

All the processes seem so vague. And if they are, which that's what I see zen is, is you can't describe it. How did you start? How did you get into it? What was the first step

vid3-36:16

You took? You said you had a teacher.

R: Yes, I tried everything. Anything that had promise in it said that you can gain some insight into what happens after death. I tried it. That's all it was. Reading a book. If I was not eating meat, I quit eating meat. I became a vegetarian. See what got you on the

Speaker 9

vid3-36:40

Main line with

Speaker 1

vid3-36:41

Your teacher? An accident.

Speaker 10

vid3-36:44

An

vid3-36:45

Accident.

R: Yeah. I mean, I didn't have this when I was working with this teacher. He was up in Connecticut. I was in Seattle when this happened. The only thing was the man could transmit. That's something else. And I hope we don't get into trying to define that tonight. There's people can help you. In other words, that's the idea. Well,

Speaker 11

vid3-37:10

So you've been in Latin and you don't want to get to that state again. Don't want to get what you've been there and

Speaker 1

vid3-37:17

You don't want to go to the hell to get there again. I don't think I'd necessarily go through hell, but I know I'd go to the same place and I just decided to use the rest of my life up. And I believe this is a commodity that's so rare that if a person does experience it, they should try to find a few people. There's very few people that go this far. And my idea is to, I believe that this is the true humanity. The true humanity is the mother helps the child see. And we have to try to bring a better child into the earth than what we were a smarter child. A more aware, aware and things. But if you do that, if you could do that, well, then you're going to try to get the best situation for that child. And the same way with a man, the man sees that he's brought people into the earth to die. That's all just to die. There's no hope. There's no real proof. We can guess. We can hypnotize ourself with all those suggestions or finite them. See, call on a thousand saints for witnesses, but we know nothing and we die stupid. So when there's a chance that a person can be awake, this is what's more important.

Speaker 11

vid3-38:38

Why don't you want to be awake again if you've been below?

vid3-38:42

R: Well, I can't help it. I'm not going to live forever and I don't need to hurry. Not too far down the road. See, I'm not rushing it. I'm not real. You

Speaker 8

vid3-38:53

Know what it is?

Speaker 1

vid3-38:54

Yes.

Speaker 8

vid3-38:55

Do you choose to live?

Speaker 1

vid3-38:59

R: I don't choose to die. I mean, I'm not going to commit suicide. That's all.

Speaker 11

vid3-39:03

Q. You choose to live the way you're living.

vid3-39:06

R: Yeah, sure.

Speaker 11

vid3-39:08

Without pursuing enlightenment anymore.

Speaker 1

vid3-39:12

I don't have to pursue it. I have it. You have? I have it. Yeah. I know every second of the day. Well, if so, except when somebody's asked me questions. Yeah.

Speaker 4

vid3-39:26

You said people, most people don't see truth.

R: They try to change environment to suit their desires.

Speaker 1

vid3-39:32

They try to change each other too.

Speaker 4

vid3-39:35

Q. Is it possible that enlightenment is different for everyone because of their desires possible. When you do become enlighten,

vid3-39:45

R: The experience that they tell you about is all of 'em are different. Nobody does it the same. Nobody has it the same. Nobody has it identically the same. No, there's not one absolute enlightenment. That is true. There's only one absolute for the whole human race. There's only one absolute enlightenment. But the road, the hell they go through before is what is different. And that's because they're just different people in different places and whatever. It is not a stereotype. It's not a stereotype type of death.

Speaker 4

vid3-40:20

Q. I was wondering, after you come back, when you are enlightened, you merged with absolute soul. So when you come back, are you still merged with it or

vid3-40:29

R: You know you are. Yes. You know that this is where you were and where you are. The only thing is we're back in the picture show and I'm playing Clark Gable and somebody else is playing the bad guy. We got horses to ride and cattle round up. Yeah. Is

Speaker 11

vid3-40:48

Path that important,

Speaker 1

vid3-40:49

Huh?

Speaker 11

vid3-40:50

Q. You talked about celibacy. A lot of the Buddhists in Dallas writings say that they gather energy from sex. Is the path that important? Is it more the action versus it the intention of the action?

Speaker 1

vid3-41:03

I have never heard of anybody getting energy from sex except women. I mean, the women get the energy from the man. But I've never heard of a man getting energy from sex. I've seen him get skinny as rails and die of tuberculosis and everything else from sex. But I've never seen him get power. Huh? Off men. And they're like, that's bad, ain't it? You're sorry too. Oh, what was I going to say? I was going to say something I thought was important. It must not have been. Yeah.

Speaker 4

vid3-41:55

Q. Are Buddhism and Christianity mutually exclusive?

Speaker 1

vid3-41:59

R: What do you mean by exclusive?

Speaker 9

vid3-42:00

Q. In other words, do they contradict each other? Could a person be a Christian Buddhist, or is that an impossibility?

Speaker 1

vid3-42:07

R: Well, I don't know. I don't consider myself a Christian, a Buddhist or anything. Zen isn't Buddhism incidentally. No, no. Don't conflict that. There's books written called Title Zen Buddhism, but zen is not. The Japanese have a complete different system of zen. And in Japan, there are two systems of Zen. I used to know the names, I've forgotten them. But zen, it's a word that has just had the procedure has not appeared. The western world with a name of its own here. Maybe we can find a name to use that won't give this idea that it's something magical out of the, and don't get the idea that there're saints, Tibet's full of saints and that sort of thing. I had that when I was a kid. I always wanted to go to Tibet. I thought all those monks over there were real really wise. And I thought they, they'll have the answer. See? So what happens is that there's a lot of stories in the newspaper lately. They big, they found a bunch of monks in California, they got aids. So they're not very saintly. See? So did you read that in the paper? They're supposed to be celibate people. You can't, pretty hard to get AIDS if you're celibate. That's one thing. Ways, if you want to play it safe, why be celibate? You want to get aids, huh? Cut.

Speaker 9

vid3-43:38

You can get cut and get the aids by. So I mean, it's not,

vid3-43:42

R: What do you mean cut?

Speaker 9

vid3-43:44

You can have a cut on your hand and you can touch someone's saliva that has aids.

Speaker 1

vid3-43:49

Get it?

Speaker 9

vid3-43:50

I mean, you can.

Speaker 1

vid3-43:50

R: Yeah. Don't anybody cut their wrist tonight. It's not causing any panics. But what happened was somebody got ahold of the ambassador from Tibet and said, what's happened here? This monk got aids. And he said, if he's got aids, look up the head monk. He's the one that's spreading it. So he's talking of a lifestyle in Tibet. So my childhood, or young man, as a young man thinking of wanting to go to Tibet, something sacred, they're not necessarily sacred. They're human like everybody else. And incidentally, that also was given as an excuse by some of the generals in China for massacring, the monks in Tibet. They massacred a bunch of 'em, and they claimed the reason they massacred 'em is they were homosexual. And of course that was not an anti-religion. That was an anti hygienic law passed by that Chinese, they don't tolerate in their own population, supposedly. See,

Speaker 4

vid3-44:59

Q. So zen and Buddhism are not the same?

Speaker 1

vid3-45:01

R: No, no, I don't believe. Don't believe in endorsing an, and that's the reason that I try to choose my words real carefully. We do things according to a procedure. And when I say it helps, if you're celibate, that helps in a lot of things. There used to be the athletes and the prize fighters or celibate, nor to win a battle in a fight. They kept their energy. They knew it. They didn't have to be proven to them. They saw they could fight better when they had their strength. I'm just doing, but this is not any indoctrination on my part from any Oriental group. The man that I studied under, it was in this country. He studied under a teacher that had been in, not India, but China. China or Japan. I didn't care about that. What I listened to was the man's words. And I found out that he spoke the truth and that was good enough for me.

vid3-46:03

R: And he said, things can happen according to a formula. And they happened according to the formula. See? And that was also good enough. See? But I am almost averse to reading books and Buddhism and zen anymore because it's full of, what do you call? There are people that just get in and they pretend they're something and they go out preaching, get enough people to build a temple for them, and they locate in the temple and raise a few thousand dollars. And that's the way they live. See? Do you think that's because the real thing is difficult and they're trying to sell something that's easy? Well, I think this is in all religions. I'll give you an example. I was in the Catholic monastery and I quit. I got out because saw, I didn't, the stuff that they were putting forth, I didn't buy it, that's all.

vid3-47:03

R: I don't believe that the Pope's infallible and things like that. They just go too far with making claims. So I dropped out and years later I ran into one of the priests, and I was kidding him. And I said, and I'm going down in the south someplace, Alabama or Texas or someplace and start up another religion. I was joking with him. I was just tormenting him. See? And he was serious. He said, you'll never get away with it. We're too deeply entrenched. So he was figuring business figures. See, he was talking about business, how deeply you get entrenched. They can't run you out of business. Strangely enough. They're going out business,

Speaker 10

vid3-47:46

R: Their monasteries are closing down, the convents are closing down. One of the boys here took a ride up with me to the seminary where I studied to be a priest. It's empty. And at one time had 300 at a time, 300 guys working. That was right above Pittsburgh. Butler, pa, Herman, PA is five miles from Butler. That's where it was. They're empty all over the country. So we're not getting any more spiritual, I think we're getting more pregnant.

Speaker 10

vid3-48:16

Q. What about the threefold path of Buddhism, though? You talked about that a lot.

Speaker 1

vid3-48:20

R: What about the threefold path? What is it? Huh? What is the threefold path? I thought it was a fourfold path, wasn't it? It was. No, you chopped it down because we're running out of time. Well, I'll tell you what, I know what you're talking about. You're talking about this, the principles of No, you tell me.

Speaker 7

vid3-48:52

I thought about the boot of the DER and the saying it.

Speaker 1

vid3-48:55

R: I thought you were talking about the four principles that was needed. No, that was the nine. There's nothing. Well, you give me four of 'em and I'll be satisfied.

Speaker 2

vid3-49:05

The

Speaker 1

vid3-49:05

R: Way the truth and the light. That's biblical as well. Yeah. The buddha and the dharma and the sangha is saying it are the same as the way the truth and the light. It's almost synonymous what we're trying to

Speaker 8

vid3-49:16

Do in our awkward way. One to mention the group here at NC State University. I forgot my initial introduction to tell you all that. We meet every week on Wednesday nights at seven 30 and room 3 45 girls and the group, we talk about all these same things every week. So we need the norm.

Speaker 1

vid3-49:42

Oh, this is already open. They're bringing it down. Did they bucket? Want to mention, Hey,

Speaker 8

vid3-49:50

If you want to talk about Mr. Rose many Mr. Rose's writings and writings of his organization, you got a minute, you want to stop by and check them out?

Speaker 1

vid3-50:05

R: I can't. Doesn't me give you the minute by minute or day by day methods of things. But in the truth of matter is, I don't think there's a very believe that there's a very small percentage of people that's interested. I think religion is easy, but a real struggle with yourself to reach a thing by yourself, it's very difficult. So there's a very small percentage of the people, but so I'm not disappointed if people don't what it is there's to do anything spiritual in the spiritual sense, immediately a causes antagonism. And that's the animal body is fighting back. "Don't block me." Don't block the animal body saying, Hey, that may not be true. Or we can do this and that too. See? Yeah. So I've realized that occasionally somebody comes along and says, I know what you're talking about. And that's the reward. So I'm not disappointed if I don't get people that say they know what I'm talking about. It'd be nice, but that's the first truth I have to live with. See, I can talk, but that doesn't mean that it's going. We'll get that.

Speaker 10

vid3-51:29

We'll get

Speaker 1

vid3-51:29

That. Yeah.

Speaker 10

vid3-51:45

Thank

Speaker 1

vid3-51:46

You. Blessings only on Sunday night. Glad you all came. Thank you very much.

Speaker 9

vid3-52:34

I read earlier,

Speaker 1

vid3-52:47

R: 500 years ago, people dos go out and own corn. They survive. But today, why it? It's more important than that to just education's necessary, in other words. But I believe that you can simultaneously, the trouble is that the educational system is so tied up that you don't have time. These damned electives that they foresaw and you takes up a lot of your time. If you're studying math or something like that, it will only take a few hours a day to catch up with your lessons. You can't learn any faster than that. So then you could devote that time to something that you really want to do besides getting into the rat race. And so that's my idea. And I believe that there are some people that just like this fellow.

=== File vid4 blank ===
Time:

VOB 4 is about 30 min but blank

== Footnotes ==

== End ==

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Category:Auto-AI

2026-01-01T07:50:49Z

Dmadmin: Update.

{{Page header}}
Nov 16-Dec 16, 2024 used Happy Scribe for 1st pass, very expensive. Then went to Rev.Com. $15 per month for up to 1,200 minutes.

Category:DVD

2026-01-01T07:48:26Z

Dmadmin: Create page for category

1991-1007-What-Is-Enlightenment-Raleigh

2026-01-01T07:44:36Z

Dmadmin: Paste Auto-AI first pass

{{Page header}}
[[Category:1990s]]
[[Category:North Carolina]]
[[Category:Video]]
[[Category:DVD]]
[[Category:Auto-AI]]
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== Data Template ==


{{Recording Data
|record-date = October 7, 1991
|location = University, Raleigh NC
|number-tapes = This was a videotape, now ripped to DVD and to mp3.
|source =
|other-recorders =
|other-versions =
|dvd-number =
|number-mp3s = 4 mp3 files from ripped video, but file 4 is silent (30 min but no audio).
|total-time =
|transcription-status = Auto-AI at Rev.com Nov 20, 2025, pasted here Jan 1, 2026.
|distribution-link =
|distribution-pdf =
|published-book =
|published-website =
|remarks = VHS converted to DVD, then to mp3.
|audio-quality = Very good
|who-is-present = Pre intro by Gerge, then Intro by Augie Turak
|url-direct-mind =
|}}

== To Do ==

== Notes ==

Video tapes were ripped to DVD-VOB, then these were ripped to mp3.
#1 = 1 hour, #2 = 1 hour, #3 = 53 min, #4 = blank.

== Transcription ==

=== File vid1 ===
Time: 1 hour

Speaker 1

vid1-00:17

We're talking about chaos,

Speaker 2

vid1-00:18

That something gets out of the ordinance. So chaos,

Speaker 1

vid1-00:28

Which has no,

Speaker 2

vid1-00:38

Not everything, the mistake engineers and scientists are making make that mistake. You're only using

Speaker 1

vid1-01:18

To me parallel universes. Everybody's new says that they don't exist. They can't be proven.

Speaker 2

vid1-01:27

What happens in they deny they don't find something flaw. Gravity is a flaw we don't understand. Take any course on infinity. Unstoppable force meets an happens. This goes back to the

Speaker 3

vid1-02:29

Hi there. We're in a few rush preparations to try to make more room for people to breathe. So we're going to move the refreshment table right outside the door so you can get up and go out and you need to breathe to get a little cool and get something to eat. Feel free. I know it's a little tight, so we'll try to keep a nice, for those of you sitting on the floor, please just punch that you going sit on the floor and want to be here that, but try to leave an aisle for people to get in and out if they have to. Thanks.

vid1-03:04

Before we get going tonight, I'd like to say a little bit about the organization that helped make tonight's event happen. My name is George Mueller. I'm with the Self-Knowledge Symposium and the UAB Lecture Committee. Both of these organizations have worked together tonight to let this evening happen. The Self-Knowledge Symposium is a nonprofit non-denominational student group here on NC State Campus who was formed about two and a half years ago as a result of a small group of people in the University Scholars Program that took a great interest in these topics. After hearing a talk by Mr. Tur, Mr. Turak has been a student of Rose for on and off 20 some years. He's spent five years of his youth around college age working very intensely with Mr. Rose. And since then he fell from the path for a while and then came back to it again and devoting himself with me further to trying to get the word out that what this man has to say is important. I think everyone who's worked tonight to make this lecture happen believes that what he has to say is very important and can change your life. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce Mr. August. We'll be presenting Mr. Rose.

vid1-04:42

AT: Well, we got a full house here tonight. Thanks everybody for coming. I want to talk just a couple of minutes by Mr. Rose. Some of you might've been here a few weeks ago when I lectured and talked to Greg Lane. I hope interestingly enough about Mr. Rose. I met Richard Rose about 20 years ago when I was about your age, maybe a little more mixed up, maybe a little less mixed up in some of you. I don't know that, but I was looking for some answers in my life and it checked into a number of things at that point in time. Finally, a friend of mine, which would look like a coincidence in retrospect, maybe it wasn't a coincidence, told me about lecture and downtown Pittsburgh, a philosophical society where a zen master was supposed to be speaking with a little bit of anticipation but not much hope. I went down to take a look at the guy. I'd seen a lot of people at that point in time. A lot of things stand out and this is not a lecture about an introduction. I'm talking about what happened to me in that first meeting that I had. But I remember Rose said one thing that has stuck with me for a long time. He said, life is really a question of whether you're going to live like a dog or whether you're going to find out why a dog lives.

vid1-06:00

AT: And that really struck me along with a lot of the feelings that I got in listening to the man. His sincerity is an obvious integrity and his devotion to what he was doing. So I came up afterwards and I said, Hey, I'd like to get to know you a little bit better. He said, sure, come on down to West Virginia. That's where I live. And I went down and I started spending time with this man and I found a little bit about his life. I've learned a lot more on the intervening 20 years. Richard Rose started out as a very poor part of a very poor family during the depression spent much. A couple of times he was put into an orphanage by his family because they didn't have enough to eat for the whole family, so they'd have to put him in for an orphanage for short periods of time.

vid1-06:42

AT: He was always very, very motivated by religious concerns. He was brought up Catholic. He found himself writing on a piece of paper as earliest memories are. Many are called fewer chosen, many are called. If you were chosen, he would look down on a piece of paper and see himself doodling those words. By 12 years old, he decided to go to a monastery to be a priest, but he went with a little bit different attitude than most people I think do He really thought he was going to get the answers to the end of the universe, who God was, thought he was going to meet God in a monastery. He thought he was going to meet men who had known God on a personal basis. He was very disappointed. And after a number of years in the monastery, he left, he got into spiritualism. He decided to check out spirits to find out if there was anything that happened, and he's got a really good story about that, which if you want to, you can pry out of him tonight about what he found out in looking for spirits. But one thing he did find out, he said price was correct, it dead, no nothing.

vid1-07:39

AT: He then decided in a peak that he would get into chemistry and physics and he would figure everything out and divide the molecules to find out what life was all about. He spent a number of years that doing that and he decided St. Thomas Aquinas was right. The finite mind will never perceive the infinite and the intellect will never unravel the secrets of the universe all unaided. But one thing he kept through all of this with product of the age of 21 or 22 was a determination that if he didn't know who he was, if he didn't know whether there was a God or if he didn't know, the three great questions, who am I? Where did I come from and where am I going? Then life was not worth living because at that early age, he had decided that he was not going to live like a dog and just go through life responding to the petty things that he seemed to see most people around him doing.

vid1-08:27

AT: He found yoga and at 22 he made a vow to himself that he said that I'll either go crazy, I'll die or I'll find the answer. And for the next seven years, he devoted himself to harsh disciplines traveling around the country. Again, I'd encourage people to ask questions tonight and get some of the parts of this story because they're very interesting. At 28 years old, he had had tremendous experiences, but he found out that he still didn't know the answers. And I'll have to steal one of his lines, which I always liked. He always says at 28, my hair was falling out, my teeth were falling out, and what the hell was good was peace of mind and bliss if I was going to die stupid. So he said he decided that he was going to give up all this philosophy and go out and get married.

vid1-09:18

AT: Remember one time he said to me, fortunately all the women I met traded me like something that crawled out from under a wet rock. He said, I think God had a hand in it. He kept me on the path. But he vacillated back and forth between a tremendous drive that he had built up over many years to search for the truth. And on the other hand, a grad gathering despair as he began to realize that he had been kidding himself on so many different levels down through the years believing what he wanted to believe, et cetera, et cetera, which many of us do at the age of 30. And again, there was a number of very interesting circumstances that surround this at the age of life circumstances. At the age of 30, Mr. Rose had a cataclysmic experience happen to him, something he didn't expect, something he didn't understand at the time, but something that he knew beyond a shadow of a doubt was the answer to all of his questions from that day forward when that happened to him when he is 30 years old, Mr. Rose is in his early seventies now.

vid1-10:14

AT: So for the last 40 years, he has been dedicated his life to trying to communicate that to other people selflessly, compassionately working because he won't compromise his message very often alone or with few people to work with, he has continued to put his energies directly into what he believes. Of all the things I was writing down before this lecture tonight, many of the things that I learned from Richard Rose, one of them was I learned exactly what character is, what people mean by character. I learned what zen means when it talks about action. Probably foremost, I learned from him what zen means when it says Your life should be walking, not wobbling walk, don't wobble. A zen master one time answered that question when somebody asked him, what is zen? It's walk don't wobble. And I learned that from Richard Rose. I learned that strength can also can be combined with compassion.

vid1-11:14

AT: I learned that the power to be intimidating as we were talking about today can also be combined with kindness and many, many different paradoxical things. And probably first and foremost, I learned what is meant in the East by detachment and what is meant by service and selflessness, how someone can be tremendously committed, dedicated to the point almost of obsession. And something gets you detached at all times and always remember the human element in it. But probably from my life, the most important thing that I've learned from Richard Rhodes is that, and the thing, I would hope that all of you, whether you believe him, don't believe him or believe me or don't believe me, would carry away from this talk is that there is ladies and gentlemen something out there or as he would say something in there, something beyond your wildest imagination. Something more real, more terrifying, more wonderful than the books and the comic books and the fantasies that you've read. And it's waiting there for you to uncover. But if you don't get off your butt, it'll stay covered. But it is there. Thank you. Richard Rose,

Speaker 5

vid1-12:35

Excuse me,

vid1-12:43

R: I think he said it all. I might as well go home. I'm supposed to sit down, but I don't think I can talk very well sitting down. I'm going to begin by inviting questions because I've talked here before and I find out that there's always, people have a lot of questions and when I get to give a talk, I don't stop. So they can't either pose their question, so it might be interested. Maybe some people will not know what zen is or whether it's important or unimportant. And if you've read anything on it and you're curious about the procedures, I'll leave it open for questions and I think it's a good way to communicate.

vid1-13:44

R: Yes, what is enlightenment? What is enlightenment? Oh, that can't be answered. You can't define that. You can only define it for yourself after it happens to tell somebody to spell it out. You're going to get into adjectives, you'll have to define, and that goes on forever because it is almost like saying I'm in a certain mood and somebody else has describe it, but I'll try to get through to you a general idea. The truth of the matter is that you, no one ever knows what it is until it happens. So even if I describe it to you, it won't not be much value until you get interested and sign out for yourself and cause it to happen. But I'll tell you, one of the discoveries that you'll make is the fact that this place doesn't exist. So why am I talking now? Because we exist. Because we exist. Yeah. I thought I saw somebody's hand back there.

Speaker 5

vid1-15:02

Yeah,

vid1-15:09

R: That call with being a Christian and calling a Christian lon, you don't have to be a Buddhist to find the same answer that zen finds. There have been Christian saints, you might call them people who pledged themselves to a whole life of asceticism or whatever it took to get a step beyond. And some of them breached it according to this is all we have to go by is literature or an active teacher. The only thing is that zen is more of a, I would say, a perfect psychological process rather than then a tireless, relentless pursuit of self annihilation, starving yourself or doing penance or that sort of thing.

vid1-16:07

R: I heard a lot about confrontation. What purpose, confrontation, serve. Confrontation is we have, everybody has a conception and the conception is colored by the family. You are born into the country, you're born into the religion, you're practicing. And as a result of that, a lot of fiction sometimes develop because the majority of people may not agree with you. Meaning their attitude is that you're either wrong or they're wrong Because of that, if a student comes in and he says, I'd like to have the truth, then you find out if he can stand the truth, if he knows what it's about. And the only way you can get him to know what it's about is to question him. And that's confrontation. And it all lead to the same place. It doesn't matter when you start defining stuff, you'll eventually wind up defining things that aren't relative. You'll move from the relative dimension to a metal dimension or possible some possibility dimension of some possibility that we haven't touched yet. See, yeah, I can see the hand. I can't see the,

Speaker 7

vid1-17:31

Is it involved with finding a permanent center within yourself that warring between two factions inside yourself in order to find a permit center?

vid1-17:43

R: Well, it's hard for me to align it to the adjectives that you give, but I understand what you're driving at. And that is, let me say that a man has to become, and that means he has to change and the center develops differently. See for each person. In other words, that's where the questioning in zen, there's a story of a person that had epilepsy. No, it was a possession. I think the person was possessed. And somebody asked the zen teacher, he said, how did you cure him? And he said, I questioned him just incessantly questioning, why are you doing it? And of course, this was maybe 500 years ago. And our present day psychiatrists don't do much more. They make it. If they fall at that, they may have more success instead of pumping the ine or something like that. But it is the physical. You acquires nothing but the person itself. That is the observer is that which finds reality. And when it finds reality, and this game that we played, the body we left behind are insignificant. Doesn't matter that much.

Speaker 5

vid1-19:11

Yeah.

Speaker 8

vid1-19:12

I have two questions. I read your little pamphlet on meditation. The first question has to do with visualization.

Speaker 5

vid1-19:21

You

Speaker 8

vid1-19:21

Say that it's not only non-spiritual, it's talk a little bit about that.

vid1-19:27

R: Well, there's a whole class of effort put out to the idea of visualizing things instead of proving them Zen. The reason I got into it, I heard Augie give you a little rundown on my experience before I went away when I was 12 years old to be a Catholic priest and I wasn't dealing with facts, I was dealing with beliefs. And when I found that out, I decided to go somewhere where I could find facts. And this is the same with meditation. People are meditating on certain things, maybe a pet rock, maybe a piece of crystal, see all sorts of things or reading books. And because it flatters something that they would like to have in their nature, they'll read the book that follows their own convictions up to date. So when you get, what do you do meditation for? I don't know why some people meditate.

vid1-20:31

R: Maybe one person meditates for a different reason, maybe just to quiet themselves down. But if you're going out for answers in meditation, it's the same thing as the confrontation or the koans that they talk about in Zen, you make sure that you're not looking for dreaming a daydream in which you'll imagine you'll meditate on the pleasures you might have when you drink a beer or whatever you do, or say a prayer you may think that may give you ecstatic delight or something like that. So what you meditate on is yourself and the things that you do that perhaps you don't approve of mistakes you made and then you analyze that. And too there's a process of eroding away the ignorant part of your nature. The other thing is you have a complex, if you have a complex, you can't stand certain people or you get angry at a certain time, or you may even think of killing somebody.

vid1-21:36

R: I mean, that's gone through my head too at times. But you look at it, you say, why? See why? And you go back. If you continue to question yourself, you'll go back sometime in your maybe early childhood where you were confronted or somebody hurt you. And once you realize that, you realize that your whole lifestyle that you build up for revenge, your anger or defense is useless and not needed. You don't need it. See? And then the injury that the person gave you passes away and you're free. But as long as you have the idea of the revenge, so consequently you meditate. My advice in the low pamphlet is to meditate upon your trouble. It's not upon your pleasure. And people meditate. I used to see fellows that take acid or something and sit, meditate, and they'd be happy, real happy. I think they were dialing heaven getting in there another pill and they'd be one of the archangels.

vid1-22:43

R: And this is an exaggeration of course, about what almost everybody does in meditation. They want to relax. They come home from work perhaps, and they want to go into a posture and relax and think of niceness. No, what's holding up your personality and your life is the negative things that's happened to you. And there's a lot of stuff written on meditation. And it's the reason I wrote that pamphlet is because it's not good sense. It's not good sense to meditate on pleasure if you want to know who you are. And after you correct yourself, you'll say, Hey, I am not as important as I thought it was. I thought I was important enough that I should go punch that guy in the nose. See, but you're not important enough. It's just something that's going to get in your road if you do. That's all

Speaker 8

vid1-23:36

My second question. You talk a lot about thesis this last year on survivors of childhood abuse and encountered many multiple personalities and very interesting phenomenon of the mind. And I was wondering if you know anything about that.

vid1-24:00

R: Now you have to speak lately. Did you say complex?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:04

Multiple

Speaker 6

vid1-24:04

R: Personalities? Yes. What do you think they are?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:08

I don't know. I've met several in my work and my thesis.

Speaker 6

vid1-24:13

What were they children or adults?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:14

They were adults.

vid1-24:15

R: Yeah, they were adults. Clearly defined. Would you, let's say to define this term, would you say that it would be the same possession?

Speaker 8

vid1-24:25

All I can do is tell you what they told me. And they didn't feel possessed. They felt they had up to the people I met, one of them had 19 personalities.

Speaker 6

vid1-24:35

R: Well that's same as possession, taking over their body. And sometimes when they, well, they communicated clearly when they were dealing, they learned to communicate with the different person, different personalities. They weren't tell you. I'll give you one bit of advice. If you have business with those, I'd advise you to drop the business because the things you're talking about can be the real, can be physical enough to light on you like a flea and be hard to get off.

Speaker 8

vid1-25:15

Do you see this as you see this as some entity, an external entity that takes them over? Or is this a trick of the mind that happened because of childhood? Or

vid1-25:25

R: Is this part of the first is truth? The second is modern psychology's vain effort to make nice excuses for it. So everybody won't hate somebody else's cause they're possessed. What type

Speaker 1

vid1-25:45

Of separate entity

vid1-25:46

R: Would possess? Where would that entity come from? What would it be? I have no real information on that. They are there as we know. And for centuries there have been formulas written down for the method of getting rid of 'em and they're not parts of our personality. There are parts find a way of getting into your mind and not getting out. And consequently it may ruin your social system. I mean your social relationships, it may ruin a marriage or ruin friendships. And the motivations, of course are unclear on part of the entity. Yes. What are the circumstances?

vid1-26:41

R: Well, we are ignorant in that respect because we presume that God's control. See the presumption, the presumption that almost every religion makes is that God is in control. If he is in control, how does it come? He allows an innocent person to suddenly become possessed and chew their tongue off or do something disastrous. See? Yes, that have something to do with karma. Karma, karma is what I was talking about. When one guy gets these nose punched and then he finally gets punched and goes back and punches him back. That's karma. See? Yes. Saying that mental illness is possession

Speaker 9

vid1-27:32

Facts science, which dissects the brain, neurological

vid1-27:38

R: Lapses in people who have schizo brain, that their neurons aren't connected. I've read all about the neurotransmitters and they're not touching it, they're not touching it. The soul is not the brain. Modern psychology says that the brain is all we have and the brain has reactions and that's our personality showing itself is brain reactions. You'll find out that's not true, but you see the psychologists who are people waiting for a profession, so can people off for a hundred dollars an hour, they're going to concoct their own answer and that's their answer.

Speaker 7

vid1-28:26

Do you have a question that we might not have sold? That death might be absolute nothing forever. How dealt with

Speaker 6

vid1-28:32

That?

vid1-28:39

R: I am going to open this up. I didn't want to type too much time, but this is the relationship of the human soul to a thing that is called the absolute soul. Now, you can give other names to this, but this is the brain. See, this is the brain. Down here is the body and it's surrounded by what I call the Atman. This is the Atman. This is the human soul, the individual soul that walks with. He goes, it doesn't stay here, it stays with him in his body or close to his body. So it is detached from the eternal soul. And so this is what happens now when death occurs, this is where you find yourself, the body's gone. There is no death. There is no death, but there may be a dark period in which you don't know where you are. How did you develop that? Huh? How did you develop that surety? I went. I went over, and that's the only answer. I don't care who it is, how many books you have on religion or anything like that. You have to make the trip if you know it's over there. That's all. And a few people do some by accident, some by fighting for it for half of their lifetime and causing it to maybe help priding it into action, into visibility or something.

Speaker 9

vid1-30:23

The impression I get is that you retain a sense of individuality of the same person you all hear. You carry that over to having the physical body gone. Is that true with a whole bunch of other,

vid1-30:38

R: The truth of the matter is you may not even want to think about the body you left. That was what happened to me. I had no thoughts. I've often heard of stories of people that couldn't die peacefully because they had an infant child or something like that. And I watched my parents die and I wonder if they'll be ever be in contact again, that sort of thing. But I'm sure that if they experienced the same thing I get when they, as soon as they completely died, they wouldn't worry about the kids they left behind. Yeah.

Speaker 10

vid1-31:18

We were talking earlier about conflict. Do you think that the conflict and stress then are actually positive influences in helping people develop? And if that is the case, how come in some individuals go to such an extreme that it begins to cause problem?

vid1-31:33

R: You mean the conflict like confrontation would cause problems? Sure, sure, sure. If you argue with your wife for a while and she doesn't agree with you, she'll start screaming perhaps, but she'll survive. She'll survive. I mean, if you're telling the truth or you believe something sincerely, and this is all we know, we believe, and sometimes people other believe something sincerely, but if the person is not trying to logically work this out, but trying to take and force their mental picture onto somebody else, then they have to be the one that will see the foolishness of it. And sometimes this gets violent. I mean, people can fall on the floor and bite their tongue and Lord knows what else. And the result of before, they'll want to admit that they haven't thought the thing out. And this is the reason that I make the effort I do, is because people of their own do not try to go after the truth. They try to adapt society to their desires and they go where they can get favorable answers and they associate with people that flatter them. But that isn't the truth. See, and if you have a child growing up and he wants to live in there or she wants to live in a fairytale land and you let the child do it, then you'll live to regret it because the child will never be interested in being honest with people or honest with himself or herself. Do

Speaker 10

vid1-33:16

You see stress as being more of an offshoot of conflict and confrontation?

vid1-33:22

R: No. No. We are programmed at birth and long before birth and the genes that come down from the grandparents and everything else, we're programmed to enhance ourselves. We're programmed to control another person, male or female. The female wants to control the man. The man wants to control the female. So consequently, you're getting something now that is not even a discussion or approach to sanity, it's approach to two animals sparring for turf. See? So when they're confronted with that and they see it and it's much better attained, there's sometimes there's an attainment of wisdom in marriage because both parties like each other enough that they are not doing it to hurt. But they will say, Hey, you're observed, see? And after the other party finds out, they're observed, maybe both parties, you'll find out they're observed and then you can silently walk down the path together. But I don't think that we have to do everything somebody else believes just for to have a nice society. We will never have a nice society. I think for some reason it is made a bit rough. So we'd think,

Speaker 2

vid1-34:48

Is it better to confront yourself or have someone confront you?

vid1-34:52

R: You can confront yourself. You can confront yourself. And that's the reason I talk that little pamphlet on meditation is to think about the traumas, the people you hated, people you still hate. That's a good thing. You don't have to be that. It could be why you did something stupid five years ago or why you get fired and you'll get back and the information will come to you that possibly you were in the wrong or you didn't have a complete thing doped out correctly. See, and when that happens, when some of you, surely some of you people here have had that experience, once you can face the things that you've fouled up on, you're taller, you're free, you feel it physically free. See, and I'm talking from a personal account, an incident when I was a young boy grade school, there was a boy in the class that he was deformed, very strange looking boy. And I would look at him and grin because he looks a comic to his mother. He might look pathetic to me. He looked like this is something that belongs in the movies in the zoo. And he picked it up and punched me in the nose.

vid1-36:17

Well, he won. I could not punch him. So I swore I'd get him. And I've always been a pretty determined person. So I thought, I'll wait until I get the chance. And I hit him with a 2x4 before whatever's necessary. And one day I was out on the farm sitting by myself and happened to come back to me and I thought to myself, I'm not putting myself in that guy's place. This is the error I made. What if I had his body and somebody come up to me and smirked or whatever, see? And I could have punched him. Maybe I'd have done the same thing. And then I realized that I was the louse, that all these years that I'd stuck in with this and was wanting to take action, I realized that this poor fella had a much harder row to hoe. And I was making it rough for him and I couldn't blame him.

vid1-37:16

R: So this is the way things solve themselves. But you have to have an open mind. And this is meditation. There was nobody else in the room. I just got to thinking about things that happened in the past. And if you've got a troubled mind, you'd go back in your past, go back, just run back through incidents and you'll pick 'em up. They'll pop out because everybody's got an unfinished agenda. See things that people have done to him and that sort of thing. Basically it was something that was descended on me because I was a Laos. I was a smart lec. See what I mean? And who wants to support or further the efforts of a smart al? So this is, and this of course, you'll hear this said in religion, we got to forgive people. No, you've got to analyze yourself. Then you can forgive people. You can say, I forgive him. Yeah, but you'll be talking under your breath maybe. See, maybe I'll get it. You had your hand up here. This idea of some

Speaker 8

vid1-38:21

People seems to advance towards this divine much better than others. And you think this is genetic, that some people can do this much more easily than other

vid1-38:30

R: People do. I wouldn't say it was, I wouldn't say it's genetic. I don't know why. And I wrote a poem one time, I've written some poetry, I think, I dunno if it's in the book out there, but the poem started off, I know not why I ever sought it unless my young heart caught the urge to love to gentle be and find out who I am. And that was the only thing that caused me to look is I was looking for the most important thing in my life because my family was dying, my grandparents were dying, my parents were dying. I knew that was up ahead. And of course you never think you're going to die, but sometimes that happens.

vid1-39:22

R: So I was just a relentless thing that I realized that life meant nothing. If I was going to go through life making the mistakes I made with that little boy in grade school, I was in trouble. I couldn't even figure out my own lifestyle. I couldn't even control my own lifestyle. I maybe spend 60 years correcting myself from some stupid thing after another. See, but I'm wondering why. So I go to church and I hear the preachers and I can't buy it. I can't buy it because I could see that they could take you into belief, but not proof. And I believe in proof. Yeah.

Speaker 8

vid1-40:02

But in your experience of going over, are you convinced that we only get one chance, that maybe some of these people haven't done this several times?

vid1-40:12

I don't believe people die. I don't believe people die. I think some people go into unconsciousness, but I don't believe anyone dies. Totally. Some of these folks further along

Speaker 8

vid1-40:20

On the gone through this more often than others, they have more experience than you can do.

vid1-40:28

R: I dunno. See, I'll be quite honest with you. A lot of people talk about reincarnation. I cannot remember anything previous. I cannot remember anything. And I know that there's people who do. I mean there's children. The reason I say I'm quite sure, because they look get little children occasionally, and the children will take the parents to another town and say, this is where I lived. See, this is in India. They had a case like that, a little girl. And there's more than one case. See? So I don't doubt that we lived before. You're not uncomfortable with that idea. You just, I'm not uncomfortable with anything. It's the truth. And if there's evidence brought on anything, I'm say that's what you listen to, not prejudice, but evidence. See, you had it.

Speaker 1

vid1-41:21

Something that I've noticed through my life is that like with the martial arts, for instance, but there are fighters and then there are warriors. The fighters don't put any feeling at all, but they don't try to flow or creating art. But yet the warriors are the ones who sit there off to the side after they've had their sparring matches or whatever, and they'll paint or they'll create poetry and stuff. Some is very, very beautiful. But how can they destroy it and yet create at the same time,

Speaker 6

vid1-41:49

Destroy.

Speaker 1

vid1-41:50

How can they destroy at one point

vid1-41:53

R: And create another point? I don't know. I don't understand that myself. But of course when you get down to basics, what is destroyed, who dies? See, sometimes we plow under a city to build something more beautiful.

Speaker 8

vid1-42:11

I have two questions about truth. Can you tell when someone's telling the truth? And how do you tell when someone's telling the truth or what is truth?

Speaker 6

vid1-42:21

R: Truth is the most probable of all considerations in regarding a word or a situation. But truth is honesty with yourself. I believe if the traffic cop stops you on the corner and says you were speeding and weren't you, and you can say, no, that's all right. You weren't speeding. That's a lie. But you're defending yourself. And in other words, we don't know the police department to pursue our spiritual work with everybody that we touch. Let the cop get his enlightenment someplace else. I take,

Speaker 2

vid1-43:08

Are you a positive positivist?

Speaker 6

vid1-43:11

R: I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 2

vid1-43:14

How do you feel about positive

Speaker 6

vid1-43:15

R: Negatively? (laughter)

Speaker 2

vid1-43:21

I have a question. You like

Speaker 9

vid1-43:23

Truth, but then again, you address things through spirituality and possession. There's no scientific proof of anything like that.

vid1-43:37

R: Oh, I think there is even a few psychologists that admit that there's things such as possession. Just like we were speaking here before, there are people that are born that remember a previous life. That means that there's something is still possessing their head. See, of course, it may be in the case of a real previous incarnation that there's nothing violent there. But at the same time, you might have, let's say a traumatic nerve, a sheath, nerve sheath that is damaged. I knew a fellow who had epilepsy and he came on him when he is a grown man about 30 years of age. And of course, sometimes it starts with children. It's inherited characteristics sometimes. And the kids will get it when they're about two. And they used years ago, call it eclampsia. But when they got older, they took more violent spells. And when they got into their sex period life, it really became strongest then.

vid1-44:39

R: So there's no doubt about it that they were, it's now natural action. But there's cases very similar to that where the person never had an epileptic spell as a child, but out of a clear blue, he would become like epileptic or he'd do something violent. And a number of these writers have written upon, of course, the churches all believe in possession and casting out devils, I don't quite go along with the idea that they're devils. I think they're possibly guys like Ted Kennedy or somebody that couldn't steal everything he wanted to, and finally decided to come back the next time, make up for what he lost. But whatever it is, it's the next human spirit. I'm joking now, but whatever it is, it is a separate personality. And sometimes these entities will give information, speak in Latin, speak in foreign languages. The person uttering it doesn't know. What you want to do is if you're concerned about this, get books on it. There's a lot of them that there was an exorcism by, what was his name?

vid1-46:11

R: I can't remember. Exorcism and possession. But there's a good bit of this stuff out if you want to look into it and are authoritative things. And then on top of that, there's history. For instance, to give you an example, all through history, there's even a tribe. A tribe of Indians had one of their members that could exercise. If you read the literature, get back into the literature of those primitive peoples. They had a method of exercising them. And different nationalities or different religions had different beliefs about it. But the one thing they had in common that this was a personality, a complete personality, infringing coming in, speaking through your mouth. See, now I'm going to give you an example. Who was it mentioned this first, we kept talking about this. There was a movie came out here on the line of Blavatsky's [check] book possession. It was a possession, you know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 5

vid1-47:19

Ex

vid1-47:20

R: The Exorcist? Yeah. I was in West Virginia at the time and I had a friend in DC in Washington that knew I was interested in getting data on this. So when it came out, it came out in the Washington paper that this boy had become possessed and things that did to try to cure him. They brought in a Presbyterian minister. Incidentally, blady put a little girl in it because he wanted to get people to view something and were morbid minded. And something crude about a little girl will attract more minded people. And about a little boy perhaps, see, and some of the stuff that went on, it wasn't in the book incidentally see. And I thought it was really scraping the bottom of the barrel to get a point across the way the people made the movie. But it was a little boy and the Presbyterian minister knew the family and he told him he'd come over and sleep with the boy. The kid was up all night, I guess. So he came over and what happened was something threw him out of bed, physically through the minister, out of bed. The teacher, preacher. Yeah. Now this means that this is something dealing with material. It's not a concept of mind, it's not a hangup. It means that this has capacity for dealing with material, physical things and tossing them around.

vid1-48:57

The preacher gave up.

vid1-48:59

R: He quit after he got thrown out. A couple of times he quit. So while he was home, different people would come in, doctors would come in, and the mother made a remark one day when in the midst of his fit, she said, Sarah, leave the boy alone. Sarah was her sister who fondled the kid when he was little. And she died. She had died shortly before he started taking these spells. This is the real story behind us. You can't get it from Vlad's book. You have to go get the Washington Post. In 1949, I think it was. It happened. So they sent him off to Kansas. I think the boy went out to Kansas to, there were two priests out there, a Catholic priests that were capable of casting out these spirits. So the boy was antagonistic. He wasn't cooperative. So of course, I dunno how many of you saw the picture, those scenes about this little girl vomiting. That didn't happen. That was all nonsense. The only thing happened, they took him in front of the priest and while he was standing there, the priest took out his mal rum. That's the book. You know what it is?

Speaker 9

vid1-50:31

The witches hammer.

vid1-50:32

R: Yeah. And proceeded to read the formula for exorcism. A kid walked right up to him, put his hand on the book, and his finger on the book and the book dis into confetti, fell of the floor. See, they tried to get ahold of him. They got ahold of the boy and he kicked one of the priests in the groin. He was pretty agile. See? But they stayed with it. And after a period of time, they got him free. And so that was the thing, but it wasn't dramatic enough for Platy or the people in Hollywood. So they made a real scenario out, but he eventually did get cured of it. So the only reason I'm saying this, don't deny things because you don't like to hear them, because there are things that we don't have an answer for them. And this one fellow I knew that was an epileptic, he said that his cause his trouble was caused by an injury to a nerve sheath.

vid1-51:43

R: And he said he believed that. And of course this is just a concept now. He believed that we're pretty much insured, that whoever designed this body took precautions that certain things couldn't get in germs, poisons and this sort of thing or something from another dimension or something we couldn't see. But under certain conditions it could get in. And this is the reason, one of the reasons that nearly every Christian religion, and perhaps I don't know the details of all other religions on the face of the earth, but nearly all of them advise a very strict spiritual life if you don't want to be bothered. So consequently, there's a lot of people that believe that you can prevent it and if you can't prevent it, but what do we read from it? We read that somehow Aunt Sarah was dead, but she went back, wanted to continue doing things she had done before. That was all. And her method of doing it was seizing the boy through his nervous system. She just seized. He took spells. Yes.

Speaker 8

vid1-53:00

You've talked of possessions and spirit so far.

Speaker 9

vid1-53:04

You've been talking about possessions and

Speaker 6

vid1-53:06

Yeah,

Speaker 9

vid1-53:06

And I don't know a whole lot about zen, but for some reason I felt that with Zen, they don't deal with spirits in the supernatural and all that. It's just a whole different thing.

vid1-53:18

R: That's what I was saying, the confrontation. This confrontation. And they asked a guy one time, but how he cured Philip was either possessed or epileptic. And he said, I continue to question him until he quits. See? And that's the zen technique for everything to bring about the supreme mental state that you need. In other words, what we're doing is 24 hours a day we're wrapped up in not in facts or not in our definition. We don't define ourselves. People don't know who they are. And it seems like it's impossible because very few people ever find out who they are. In other words, they know they're a body, but they don't know if they have a soul. They're not defined. See. So consequently, I think that there's nothing wrong with studying the ways and means to clean the house if somebody breaks in, see or to prevent people from something, from breaking in,

Speaker 7

vid1-54:26

That kind of thing. Being thought with sort of like a biological unconscious where it's just material materially based. Whereas something that is positive, spiritually based, the so-called negative influences can only approach to the biology of a person.

Speaker 6

vid1-54:46

R: I can't tie that together. I can't tie that together. I know that right now they're worrying with the new road transmitters and this stuff. We was listening to a tape the other day about, what was that? Encephalitis? Reis. He had encephalitis. What was the guy's name that wrote that book? Sachs. And I could see that they're fishing desperately to try to identify all of this stuff with the body, with materials. And I mean, watching a movie like an Exorcist seems to make it tap

Speaker 7

vid1-55:24

Into a collective kind of thinking that gives more people to watch. That show gives more power

Speaker 6

vid1-55:31

R: And collective unconscious. Well, I wouldn't say that because there was very few people that saw these things that ever saw them or believed in them. And yet that entity had power enough to crack into that child or into an adult. There's lots of people manifest possession. There's a lot of them. Too much alcohol. You'll see people that will get completely out of character. Can you talk about your enlightenment experience? Well, if you ask me questions, I'll answer them, but I don't like to spend a lot of time what? That was a question. Is that a no? You're not going to talk about

Speaker 8

vid1-56:16

It happen when you were 30 years old. What preceded it and what was the experience?

vid1-56:23

R: I heard Augie talking about the fact that it happened. I said that's true. And I spent the rest of my time trying to write it to explain what happened and how possibly a person might be able to duplicate it. See, of course, it's impossible to duplicate, get a formula for people to duplicate so that when it happens, they're always different. Everybody I've met, other people were enlightened and the story they told was altogether different of the process they went through. I could run through some one of 'em. For example, this was a fellow that, there was a fellow, he was in the Air Force and he was fighting the Japanese and he was bombing cities and he was a devout Christian. And he read the Bible and thought that that's where he found the truth. So stick to the Bible. But he got to thinking after he had blowed several thousand people up on those cities over in Japan, and he says, where's God? Why did God permit this? The Bible says God observes the fall of the spiral. Where was he when a thousand people fell? See, so the result, he got to talking to himself and they saw how he was worried, troubled. So they gave him a leave of absence for arrest and realization thinking that he'd get over it. So he went back.

=== File vid2 ===
Time: 1 hour

Speaker 1

vid2--00:00

R: Back. He was from Texas in San Antonio, and he went back to San Antonio. That's where I met him, in fact. [Correction: Rose met Paul Wood in Akron at Bob Martin's house.] And he had a wife, had a wife before he left, and some small children. So he goes back and his wife threw him out. She couldn't live with him because she thought he was acting crazy. So he went and got a job. He had a job, but it was very difficult for him to hold a job even because his answer wasn't, he didn't get his answer. He had put his whole life on Christianity and the belief that whatever the Bible said was right. See, so why didn't God stop the bomb? The same as he watched the fall of the sparrow. Why take care of a sparrow be considered when he didn't care about a thousand people? He's still got the problem. He hasn't solved. And this is what the mind is with everything. We face stuff. And rather than say, Hey, that might not be true, let's go and iron this out that we find it is true or not. That's the way you do it. Don't try to build for belief.

vid2-01:08

R: That's the point. Well, anyhow, he said that he got a job in as a salesman and a dealer, automobile dealership. And he said that he was always uneasy, he was troubled, and it was just got so heavy that one day he said he put his head down on the desk and prayed for God to kill him. He wanted to get out. If couldn't have peace of mind. He wanted to be dead. He passed out. He was a week in the hospital a week or 10 days. He said in those 10 days he traveled all over the country and all different periods of time, he would be walking down the street and he would describe the battle of Gettysburg.

vid2-01:58

R: When we talk about enlightenment, there's different reactions, people have different reactions. And finally he came to peace with himself that he decided he wasn't going to worry anymore. He was going to do the work that he was set out for, and that was to bring people to the same realization that he had. So of course he didn't stay in San Antonio. He moved up into Oklahoma on a farm and everything. He didn't worry about eating. He said sometimes he'd go without food, but it didn't bother him and he didn't have transportation. One day I fell, drove up and gave him a secondhand car and I saw it. It was a pretty nice car. But he said, those that serve God, he said will be taken care of. And I'm convinced of that. So I'm not worried about that. But this experience this man had was that he could see anything that he wanted to at any time in history. A little slice of that happened to me when I was over there. I noticed that I could see anything that I wanted to, but I didn't desire to see anything. I was having too much exhilaration from being where I was, knowing that I was still alive and that sort of thing. Who was first? You go ahead.

Speaker 2

vid2-03:22

Can you be over there whenever you want?

Speaker 1

vid2-03:26

R: No, no, no. What I have is the memory of it. See? And the conviction, of course. In other words, if you come back to life, you're back in the storybook. This is a storybook. This is a bit of fiction. And we play it like a game.

Speaker 2

vid2-03:50

Can you travel to a specific point or, well, you want

vid2-03:54

R: I didn't. I didn't. While I was there. Of course. See, I don't, I know that he was in real trouble for a week before it happened. And with me, I didn't have that. I was very quick. I had a pain in the top of my head and I thought, how's in Seattle, Washington? And I thought, here I go. And I don't know anybody in Seattle that's in a hotel and sitting up. I used to, I'd get into a town if I was bored or something. I took a job there, in fact. And that time on my hands, I'd get out of the library and get a book on yoga or something and read it. And I was sitting there and I'd do all these, everything they said to do in yoga, breathing exercises. And I tried everything that was advised. See? So this particular time, well, when I'd sit on the bed, I'd sit on top of the bed and lean against the headboard because I don't think there was too many chairs in my room. I can't remember using a chair. But that's the way of doing it. I'd happen to be sitting there and this pain hit. Well, I thought I'm going to, this is going to be it. And then I found myself someplace else. I found myself.

vid2-05:16

R: I knew where I was. And now I don't want to get into this too deeply because it'll provoke questions. I don't want to answer questions of how many angels I found on the head of a pin. See things of that sort. But that's basically what happened. But then as I said, I was, nothing mattered to me. I mean, the thing is, I a little embarrassed by it in a way because I remembered when I came back, I thought, geez, I had no concern at all for my family. Didn't bother me a bit. Cut off from them. I think it's laid up. No, this has it. You have your hand up.

Speaker 3

vid2-06:05

You said that all of this didn't really exist. And so my question is, I presume that something else does exist. Well, how do you

vid2-06:18

R: Sense that? Can you sense that Now when you're in that position in which this place is fiction, you can create any fiction that you want. That's a thing. And that's is what happens. And I've got a few notes here. I hope we have time to go through some of 'em on the ability to learn this. You can learn this business of causing things to happen. And I'm going to shift now. What time is it? What time? We have to be out of here? 8 42 now. Huh? It's 8 42 now. Yeah. I dunno if we have any time restrictions. Huh? Anybody know? We don't have any time. As long as your hold, long as your voice hold. Well, yeah, I'll just get a little horse. That's all. How many people here have heard of, what's this thing? Cause we use the word, I check my notes, I forget terms. It's synchronicity. Have you heard of synchronicity? What do you think it is? Basically? Do you think it is a cause that there's things caused to happen?

Speaker 4

vid2-07:52

Just that certain patterns are repeated throughout Experience? Yeah, there are certain patterns that happen more often.

vid2-08:02

R: Well, there's different, I picked up a little book by Alan Vaughn and it was on synchronicity, 1and I was somewhat amazed. First of all, I'd heard it for years. There was a fellow came to the farm. I have a farm down in West Virginia, and he was staying at the farm. He wasn't too stable. Why? I don't know. But he worried about psychic things and he got a dump truck and was hauling lumber and stuff for people. And I got into his truck one day and I said, your bearings, the bearings in the drive shaft are coming loose. He said, Mr. Rose, don't say that. And I said, why not? Well, he said, why did you say it? I said, because I've had old junk trucks when I was younger, and I know the noise. That's all. We didn't get two miles down the road. Boom, driveshaft broke.

vid2-09:15

R: Well, I thought, boy, if I ride with him, I'm going to have to keep my mouth shut safe. So we were on another trip, another trip after that. I never rode with him again. The second trip, the second trip, I looked at the tires and they were bare. One of 'em was. And I said, you sure we get this truckle, haul this with a bare tire? He said, would you please be quiet a few miles down the road? Now there's people here that witness this, that know about it. I'm not making it up. And we went to tower. I never rode with him again. I didn't want to disrupt his business whether I was doing it or not, but it was just, to me, it was no magic. I saw a tire was ready to blow, that's all I heard. A noise that I identified before. Okay. But he would always talk about synchronicity. And he thought I was using synchronicity to blow up his tires.

vid2-10:16

R: I picked up this book by a Vaughn the other day, and I got to looking through it. And it wasn't clear to me what synchronicity meant means synchronizing, things that synchronize. But under that category, there's a lot of stuff that they list. Extrasensory perception and synchronicity, psychokinesis, deja vu, prophetic dreams. You have a prophetic dream, meaning the person dreams. One of the famous mediums, a few years back, Eileen Garrett saw the a durable fall out of the sky days before it fell or simultaneous. She was in England. This durg, I think collapsed plane collapsed in France and some people got killed. It kind of put her on, made her famous because she was a seer. And of course she's also an author, the Oracles of Delphi, precognition, unconscious foreknowledge like somebody going into a trance or something. And Kessler Kessler wrote a book called A Roots of Coincidence. And that's what it was largely about. And I'm reading this because I couldn't remember all these things because I wanted to get an exact definition of synchronicity because synchronicity seemed to match some of my experience. And I thought I could get enough instances to indicate what was going on in these people had it.

vid2-12:16

R: Kessler makes a strange statement. Consciousness creates space, time, and matter. The artfully contained coincidence of life's are just that contrived by our consciousness as is the rest of our life. Now if you can interpret that statement, what he's saying is that a planet was made by mind to not just human minds. That there's a mind stuff. And I read some books years ago saying, I'm taking these for a fact that they have to be believed. But when you read, when you're studying a certain subject, you read it and then you can decide later whether you don't believe everything you read. But in a spiritualistic movement, they decided to categorize the planes of after death experience. And they were the astral plane, the etheric plane, and the causal plane and a couple more, which important. But what interested me was this causal plane. So they believed that when a person got into that plane, you could do anything. You could create anything you wanted. So if this is true, mine from another superior advantage can create things on this earth, maybe even the earth. See? So what happens? One thing I know that when I was standing on this hilltop in this far away place, I saw no planets that's on no sun.

vid2-14:06

R: But we get back to this synchronicity. What does this stop us? You read enough of this stuff and you come to the conclusion there might be a formula here. There must be a formula. So how do you work it? I noticed some things about my life that caused me to get another view, another view on it. One is that I was able, when I was a child, to see people before they died, when they were dying, when they were going to die. I mentioned to your gie, did the details maybe about when I was 12 years old, I went away to a seminary and my mother took me up to the church and there was a priest there. I'd say he's about 45, 50 years of age, and I couldn't take my eyes off of him. I kept watching him and she made the arrangements and obvious supposed to get on a bus and go up to Pennsylvania to the seminary.

vid2-15:16

R: See? And I walked out with my mother and I said, father Phillips's going to die. She said, shut up. He was sacred. He didn't talk that way about you priest. He died in a week. And I used to go past people's houses and smell flowers. I'd stop and write the number down. I'd find out later that somebody in the house died. Now these are like synchronistic events that I'm somehow able to function in two areas at once. See? Or it's a combination of the smell. Maybe the smell didn't even exist. Maybe it's a metal thing that's translating an indoor odor or something like that. But this kind of stuck with me that certain times things would happen.

vid2-16:10

R: And I noticed that if you do things by holding your mind a certain way, you can accomplish them. I'm going to give you an account of I got sick one time not too long ago, and I didn't think I was going to recover. So to get my mind off my sickness, I went down to a beer joint about as far as I could walk, in fact. And I got in there and they got to playing cards and I lost some money because I wasn't watching what I was doing. I just killing time. And they were running the ante up all the time. It started with a nickel and a dime and a quarter and a dollar. And first thing you know, I got about a thousand dollars in the poker business. So I decided that I was just going to call everybody. If they didn't have me beat showing I was going to call 'em, I wouldn't bet, but I'd call 'em.

vid2-17:02

R: So everything changed. I got so confident that in draw poker, I would call for cards and get them exactly face up. I'd tell 'em, don't put 'em down, turn 'em up, face up. See, and I'll give you an example. I know how many play poker, but in this particular case they called it low card wild. The lowest card in your hand was wild. So that if you had a pair of threes and you got a deuce, you had three threes. But if you had a pair of threes and four kings, you had five kings. But catch a deuce, you've only got a full house perhaps if you only had two kings and that deuce was below the three, that's a low card. Wow. So consequently, if you call for cards and you need a high card, unlucky, the chances are you won't get it. And I remember I called, I had a queen, two queens and a jack, and I kept the jack.

vid2-18:02

R: It is a picture card. So I said to the dealer, give a queen and a jack, he threw it over, queen and jack. I had people get up and eat the cards, actually eat the cards. And I'd tell 'em, don't bet. I'd say, don't bet I got your beat. No, no. They thought I was bluffing, but I wasn't good at bluffing. That's the reason I told the truth. I'd show it they was reding my reading my face before. See, and they knew when I had a winner, I'd get bright eyed and they would drop out and I wouldn't get anything when I had a good hand, but I was indifferent. So I saw a tremendous lot of these things happen.

vid2-18:43

R: I believe I can't help but believe that people here have had them happen. Things that were indescribable, something would happen and you'd feel that. The thing number one is that it's not possession. I would clean up the table and I go over, we'd go over to a high, there was an all night restaurant over there, and I'd take all these guys I played poker with and buy 'em a steak dinner at one o'clock in the morning because I didn't want their money, but I couldn't stop it. I got my money more than what I'd lost in the previous days. Now, this was just a state of mind I got into.

vid2-19:26

R: First I was afraid I was going to lose, so I lost. And then I didn't care whether I lost or not. So I start winning. I think the reason I'm saying this, that perhaps you've had things like that yourself. You'll have moments in which you feel I can't miss see, but if you brag about it, boom, believe me, it goes. Now why these are factors sounds like superstition, but I've seen it working too many times. One of these incidents in Vaughan's book was interesting. He describes a piece in which Edgar and Poe wrote about a boy that was eaten on board a ship. And his name was say, Jimmy Carter, just pick a name. And this occurred in PO's story in 1838. And he said the kid was killed and eaten aboard ship 12-year-old boy. And his story, it was a fiction in 1884, they had a ship left, one of the port's here, and they run a ground on an island or something and they eat a 12-year-old boy by the name of Jimmy Carter.

vid2-21:00

R: It was almost like gro and PO had seen this ahead of time, unconsciously. He didn't deliberately know there was a boy by the name of Carter going to be eaten. But somehow his unconscious mind, the conscious mind searching for names would've absolutely picked something else. But being unconscious. He happened to pick the right name. I mean they were indifferent. Let's say a high state of indifference. Everybody knows Eileen Garrett, perhaps You ever hear that name? Eileen Garrett. She wrote a few books. She came into this country and tried to put a publishing, started publishing outfit up in New York. And she wrote one of to publish all the strange books about elves and ferries and superhuman spiritual occurrences and this sort of thing. And she also put out a magazine. But anyhow, she's a well-known author and she had been a medium and somebody asked her, how do these things work? How do you do this? And I copied it pretty much verbatim what she said.

vid2-22:08

I only do it successfully in a state of high dalliance dalliance indifference. See what I mean? And when she was in that state, then her mediumship was accurate. I want to tell you some of the other things that happened down at the place down at the farm. We were building a building and the boys were pulling some. We had oak logs 24 feet long, which we had owned out with a chainsaw to make beams out of them, to hold a roof up. And an oak is about a board. Foot of oak is about seven pounds a foot an inch. Bo elbow is around seven pounds. You take 48 of those and 12 inches thick and you got a bit of weight. So I came down and was using an old pair of rope blocks to take them up about 30 feet in the air, put the ridge a ridge beam in.

vid2-23:13

And I looked at the rope and I said to him, if I was you, I wouldn't depend on that rope to hold that thing up in the air. And I turned around and walked away and it fell. The rope broke and fell. I had to watch what I said then because everything I said, David, jeez, he's going to kill us one of these days. The same fellow had the truck had this axle go out. He was standing on the back porch one day and it had a billy goat tied out in the fence, see, had a light on a wire. And he said, the billy goat hollered for help. And I said, nonsense. I heard animal it's making noise. And he said, no. I said, the goats can't say. He said, but he said, help. So I went out and the goat was tangled all up and he was making a noise, but didn't sound like help. But see, he believed these things. I don't know if to him it sounded like help or not, but it meant it filled the bill. And I've run into this stuff all the time. So what are we getting at? We're getting at the possibility. The thing behind this is that what can we do with this? What can we do with this synchronicity?

vid2-24:37

If that's perfected, if that can be perfected and you can cause things to happen. You've got a powerful mental instrument and what can you do with it? What would you do with it? If you had it, you'd probably say, well, I want to pick up the right book. I want to pick up the right book, or I want to run into the right person. Or I want to create a situation in which I'll know the answers on this. And of course I'd say there probably has to be some sort of challenge for you to make a decision in. But I believe that this happens as a result of a spiritual experience with some people. I think it comes naturally. So consequently, my point is that if you can pick up that sometime, pick up this Alan Vaughn's book, you'll get the impression down the road that you can, to some degree, you're not going to move mountains, but there are things that are done.

vid2-25:45

See Edward Bulwer-Lytton for "vril" , The Power of the Coming Race

One of LE's book, she talks about the word Vril. Have you ever heard that Vril was the art of the ancient people used to move stone own to cut big. You get out of the pyramid mids in Egypt, and these are huge blocks as there, and they are cut to precision. There's only one eighth inch of mortar and it's still in there what they put in it. And it looks like dental cement. It's a bureau fine. It looks like general cement. We have no idea exactly how they did it. But in Tibet, I saw this on television, I'd heard about it before and I thought, oh, this could be nonsense. But I heard that they had a method of lifting rock in Tibet with these big long horns they have. And they showed this one time on the tv, on the film. And what they did, they get a bunch of people with the horns and they get a few monks chanting, and you'd see this, they have a rope up on the cliff.

vid2-26:45

R: They had no road to get up there. They're building a monastery up there and pulling these big stones up. They looked like they'd be about five feet square. They had a cable or rope pulling it up. The next thing you'd see, they just take 'em up the slack when it would raise a little bit. And they kept blowing those horns. Now, this could have been a real con job. I mean it could have been a faked film or whatever, but I feel that the mind can be under certain conditions that powerful. And so consequently, I think that this is what a person has to do if they want to do anything with their mind is to work. Don't say, Hey, I'm going to go in there. I've had people say this to me. I'm going to give this one year, and if I'm not enlightened in a year's time, I'm leaving and some of I'm dead. You can't do that. It's almost like, let's take the possibility that there's a deity listening. And he says that guy's in fighting. I don't want him something of that sort. But that's a conclusion you can draw that there's a force that he runs. Contrary to his thing is you fight without any promise. You fight for this or death. And if you have that determination, I'm sure that you can make it. And once you make it, you'll get corroborations. You'll have little things that you can do that'll surprise you. Just like these.

vid2-28:26

Seeing people that I've had several people knew they were going to die because just because of an odor in a room or something. Yeah, go ahead. How common would you say it's for people to achieve this experience? Or how many people have you met in your lifetime to gone over?

vid2-28:46

R: I've met, I've met Paul Wood in Florida [No, Akron], which is the only person that I've really talked to outside of his zen master that I knew in Massachusetts, not Connecticut, I think it was in Connecticut. Yeah, right near New York City. Those are the only two that I know for sure could do whatever they wish with a human mind. But I have corresponded with people that I'm quite sure that they had superior experiences, didn't know how to teach it, didn't know how to go about telling somebody else how to arrive at it. And the simple formula is just make up your mind. In other words, all of you people are pushing for something. You're ready to dedicate four years of your life to learn how to make money off of people other people see, and you'll go through a lot, believe me, in order to get that degree and what you'll think is a superior stand in life. And really, you'll find out that you were innocent when you were young, but when you graduated from college, you weren't. Some faculties have taken away. Yeah.

Speaker 2

vid2-30:06

Have you never been scared of not finding that what you were searching for, for example? Well,

vid2-30:13

R: I realized there was a chance. The chances against me finding it, I knew that was possibly a thousand to one, maybe more than that. I intended to do it until I died. That was all. I tend to go after it. But there's lifestyle. There's a lifestyle that's behind it. You have to live a certain way. You can't indulge all of your whims and sexual appetites and that sort of thing. Yeah. There's the power. The power you generate.

Speaker 6

vid2-30:43

What exactly are we talking about?

Speaker 1

vid2-30:45

Huh?

Speaker 6

vid2-30:45

What exactly are you talking about? Can you just cover it real briefly or is it a really in depth?

vid2-30:51

R: No, I can't tell you exactly what I'm talking about. I have to search as you see what I'm doing. I'm trying to search as it is to give you some idea of what happens and how you get there. But my case will not be your case. Everybody. I can't say stand on your head two hours a day, eat marmalade or drink cider or that sort of thing. And you're going to don't eat meat. Don't kill any low animals. That has nothing to do with it has nothing to do with it at all. But you'll devise a system for yourself that'll be accurate just by backing away from the foolish, backing away from the things that distract you. And don't think you can take your wife with you or your family with you. It's not going to happen. Or your children. One of the saddest things I have was I came back and I saw, I knew my children, what they would do with their lives very clearly.

vid2-31:57

R: It was at one time that I re-experienced the thing very quickly, and it was in that period that I saw my son as being totally impossible spiritually. That's pretty hard to take because you love your family, so there's no common language. Your case, if you're interested in it, your case will be different from anything else. And when you come through it, you'll agree with a whole lot of stuff that's written in the spiritual manuals and all that sort of thing. He'll say, yes, there's been some people doing some good thinking, but it's vague when it gets translated and retranslated a few times. It gets to be political. I look upon the biggest part of the religions is political. I don't mean voting thing, voting politics, that sort of thing. But I mean, it is just like the guy in the army. He goes in, he wants to be a lieutenant or he wants to be a general, and you go into the religious business, you want to be a pope or you want to be the head honcho, whatever it is, whatever they call it. If someone dies without enlightenment, are they in danger

Speaker 6

vid2-33:08

If

vid2-33:08

R: They're, what?

Speaker 6

vid2-33:09

If someone dies without finding enlightenment,

vid2-33:12

R: Dies without it,

Speaker 6

vid2-33:12

Right? Are they in danger? Are they going to experience something bad or

vid2-33:17

R: Not bad? We are all stupid people. And this unreasonable to conceive that somebody with infinite intelligence is going to put a gun to our head and say, Hey, you either have the right answers, blow your brains out. Say or put you in hell. I don't believe in hell. There is no hell unless you get married. Sometimes I tell, yeah,

Speaker 2

vid2-33:44

There's no specific directions like drink, eat, mar related every day or your head. But there is our basic principles that stand behind it. Is this true

vid2-33:56

R: To do what?

Speaker 2

vid2-33:57

There are basic principles for a standard of living, for making it a lifestyle.

vid2-34:03

R: You mean in zen?

Speaker 2

vid2-34:04

Yeah.

vid2-34:07

R: Well, you would have to prove that to me. I'm asking you. Oh. Oh, I thought she said to worry. I thought she was making statements. I'm sorry. I'm asking the question. If you were studying with me, I would tell you how I thought you could do things. It would expedite, and some of them have to do with the loss of energy. Not to lose any energy. You need all of your energy to do this. You're going to walk through death, so you'll need some vitality. And there are things, the other thing is the truth. And I'm not saying that you have to be a fanatic and tell every policeman when you're doing one mile over the speed limit. See, that type of truth is not what we're talking about. We're talking about trying to find the reality behind life. What is this? Are we just animals moping around giving ourselves sensational ideas of life after death and sensational promises and sensational hopes and saying, all we have to do is believe, believe isn't dipped. You got to know. You got to know what you can do. Do

Speaker 6

vid2-35:19

You think western science never prove something like we incarnation do technology, perhaps technology.

vid2-35:28

R: I don't have any idea that western science could do that. I'll tell you what I've done though. I've done quite a bit of work with hypnosis trying to do that. And strangely, I have to be honest with you, I've never could get the one back to the day before birth. And this is where you have to go. And there's been other people, it's worked with it, but I've taken people back. You take 'em one year at a time or one year at a time. I remember this one party, I took 'em through high school from, if they were in college, I'd get their memory and say, what do you see now? What is this? This is 1992. I say, let's on the 7th of October, 1990, where were you? What do you remember? And nine chance out 10, they'd say, well, I was in college and I was doing something.

vid2-36:29

R: Or I'd say, maybe they can't remember the exact dates. So well, okay, in 1980, who was your teacher in school? How would I know? Let's say? And yet they would start and remember. And then by getting the grades that they could remember, like 18 89, 19 89, they'd remember the teacher and I'd just take them back and they'd tell who was sitting in front of them, who was sitting on the other side of them. And so you get 'em clear back to year one when they're 1-year-old and say, now we're going to get back another year from today. See? And where are you? What do you see? See? But I was very successful in clearing people's heads up because I remember this one, it was a friend of my wife's, and she's a good subject. She also had been injured in an automobile accident and had epileptic spells as the result of it.

vid2-37:30

R: And so I put her to sleep and started her back through the grade high school, who's the teacher? And she'd tell me, she sat my math teacher. That's my So going back. But we did it for hours getting back. Then I woke her up and I said, okay, who was your teacher in the first, second, third grade? Or say third grade? And she'd say, I don't know. What do you expect me to know that for? I find clear up into the seventh and eighth grade. She knew maybe one teacher at the head of the class, something like that. And I'd say, was it Mr. So-and-So? Yes. How did you know? I said, I'll tell you later. How about this other grade? Who was the boy sitting in front of you? She'd say, geez, I can't remember that stuff. I said, Johnny, so-and-so. Yeah. How did you know?

vid2-38:24

Well, I told her after a while. I said, you told me under hypnosis. So she was telling me that I went through this routine to see if she's telling me the truth or the facts or I was missing, see getting missing. But the thing was that it scared her a little, but I knew she was L at ease. And I thought to myself, I got to do something for her. She's helped me in this bit of research. And suppose we'll give her a suggestion that she's not going to have epileptic spells. Well, under hypnotic procedure, you don't say somebody's not going to have something. You have to phrase that in a positive manner. And you say, you will be free of the epileptic spells from now on. So it was good for a year. She never took a spell for a year because my wife was able to keep track of her. And a solid year, I don't know how far beyond that, but for a solid year that we kept track of her, she never had a spell. So you can do a lot of good things while you're carrying on your research and on reincarnation, that sort of thing.

Speaker 6

vid2-39:29

Would you say the best path to enlightenment is just

vid2-39:32

Increasing your awareness of everything yourself?

R: You search, and then in your process of your search, the first thing you do is establish a ways and means committee. Ways and means, ways and means. That means how many hours you're going to spend, where you're going to do it, what things you're going to concentrate on, what efforts you're going to put out. Are you going to be celibate? Are you going to be horsing around? Okay, you're going to put your whole self in it. So if you're going to put your whole self on it, you're going to be celibate.

vid2-40:06

See, and you can always have the ambition and the desire to know the truth about everything, but if you keep postponing it by every act of sex, well, you might be 90 years old before you really don't need sex anymore. You might get the answer, who knows? But that's the ways of me. This is the reason down through the age is people got into aesthetic practices. Asceticism in itself is saying, all of my energy's going in this direction. No other direction. See, no booze, no cigarettes. Don't burn your lungs out. You need your body see to survive. It's a battle you're in. That's just the beginning. But for men, you'll tell yourself what to do. You'll say, let's go to this. Let's read this book. Let's see what I can get out of this book. What can I get out of tit and Buddhism? What can I do? Maybe even a hypnosis, a lot of psychological work you can do with a group of people And consult people and consult people too incidentally, if a person's interested in that and they get into it and they want to call me on the phone, I'll respond. I'll tell you. I'll give you what advice I think is valid.

Speaker 2

vid2-41:35

I'm sure, of course, you've done a lot of meditation. What are your

Speaker 1

vid2-41:40

Experiences with internal energy? With what? Internal energy, internal energy this is?

R: Huh? I don't know anything about it. The character like this. Alright, I don't know. I know. How about when it's like this? Kundalini? Is that what you mean? Kundalini?

Speaker 2

vid2-42:00

I don't know.

vid2-42:01

R: See, these are words. This is the reason I'm talking plain. I'm talking plain. These are all things I presume that require absent. Absent. So control. See,

Speaker 2

vid2-42:14

That's how I go.

Speaker 1

vid2-42:18

When you aren't ab too much, you lose your achieve. When you do that, you lose your achieve, you lose your abstinence. Right? Well, that's alright if you want to call it that. See, I don't have any proof of that. The word, I was just curious what had not abstinence. I can't do anything about she because I never met the man. Yeah.

vid2-42:46

Well, that's what you get. Basically, the only thing is the energy goes up instead of down. Should the person be concerned with safety in doing this? Should it be with a group of people who know what they're doing? The person, I believe that if you ever attempted to go into a trance by yourself, you should have some company. You should have somebody that knows what to do. See, and that party then can bring you out of it. But I don't think, see, the strange thing was I believe that I was sent to Seattle on a fool's errand. I went out there to get married. That's the fact of the matter. It was a sour deal. So I went back to the hotel room and started reading the books in the library about yoga and that sort of thing. And that's when it happened. I was at peace with myself.

vid2-43:38

R: I was tickled to death that this girl turned me down because I was free once more. But the thing was that I had nobody to call. There was nobody in that town that I could call for help. And I was sure not going to disturb my family, my parents, because they would just go bonkers trying to figure out how to get to me. And so I just canceled it out. But what was happening anyhow, I couldn't stop it. And I often thought, you're put in a position where you can't run because you have to die. You have to go through the death and the death is hell. Its you're facing the thoughts of extinction are not too easy to sit with. That's all. Yeah.

Speaker 5

vid2-44:28

Is spirituality or the of your energy, is that more than, say if you're following a career or how would you balance the two? You're looking to be a functional person, do a

Speaker 1

vid2-44:44

Certain thing,

Speaker 5

vid2-44:44

But you're also looking

vid2-44:46

R: No, no, I don't. Do not try to be a functional person. No. I do a lot of things, but I don't have any plans. I'm going to give you an example. We have a group in Columbus, Ohio, and there was always, one boy was appointed as a monitor. I went up to give a talk and there was two men come in, were, well, one of 'em had been in the group for a long time and he had dropped out and started another group up and they were trying to put me on the spot. So they would come in with the tablets and it was like legal tablets, yellow paper. And I was going to ask me the questions and get there to prove me wrong by my own tricks. And so he said to me, Mr. Rose, how are we going to tie this together with a marriage and social life and profession?

vid2-45:45

I said, you don't tie it to anything. This is the most important thing. And that's what you do. So he's married, he's got several kids. See, I presume the man with him was too. And I said, you know this yourself. You've been around that long. This is not something that you bargain with as much as to say, well God, I'll give, if you give me enlightenment within two years, well then I'll work for you for four. Maybe I'll get out and preach on the corner or something for four years. No, that doesn't work that way. You fight your way through the rocks or whatever it is.

Speaker 6

vid2-46:24

Why does sex seem to be an obstacle in everyone's road? True you mean?

R: No, you never sensed that. Pardon? You've never sensed that. You think?

Speaker 6

vid2-46:34

Yeah. I'm asking why does that one thing seem to be a distraction? Somebody tell me. What is it about it that makes it so powerful in that sense?

Speaker 1

vid2-46:53

R: Well, your function is reproduction, producing fertilizers for the earth. You have no children. Once you raise your children, you'll find, you'll think, that's my kid. Oh, what a beautiful baby. 20 years later you'll say, what the hell is this? And you realize you've been a door. You're a door through it. That child comes and that love for the child is nature. Female cats. We got a female cat back on a farm now she's got two second set of kittens in about two months, and she thinks she's important. That cat, her whole being is into surviving herself while bringing in meat enough to make milk for those kittens. She loves them. So

Speaker 6

vid2-47:46

That's one big natural obstacle.

vid2-47:49

R: So what happens is she's tied to that. She's tied to that. That's all. And that's the reason I say try to get whatever knowledge you can get before you get hung up. Because every marriage will have a situation that can stop you. I'll tell you a little story, to give you an example, going driving to Pittsburgh to give talks like this in Pitt and Duquesne and some places like that. And there was a guy riding with me. In fact, sometimes he'd drive me a little Volkswagen, we'd drive it. It was cheaper on gas and one day he didn't show up. We'd meet and we'd park our cars in the parking lot of A&P store and we'd drive ride together. One day he didn't show up, and I knew his wife, his young fellow had just got married. I knew his wife was not, she didn't approve of what he was doing because she was devout Catholic.

vid2-48:54

And she thought anything else would be maybe negative or the devil's work or something. And I could see the point, but I only saw her once and never talked to her. So he pulled up and he didn't show up. So I thought, well, he's done. He's not coming. And so I stopped at the A&P store anyhow, I thought, well, I'll wait if he was here, he come, he showed up. That was the next week. So he got in, he wasn't talking. He was a little ashamed of himself for not having an excuse for being there the week before. And I turned and looked at him and I said, I'm going to tell you what happened. I said, the reason you didn't come last week, I said, your wife said, why do you have to go up there and you say, this is important to my spiritual work?

vid2-49:46

Well, she says, I'm stuck here with a baby and et cetera, et cetera, and I don't like to be alone. And he said to her, well, this is for my soul. I'm doing this to try to enhance my soul position, but if you insist I will sacrifice this search for my soul, for you and the child. And she says, I insist. See? And he looked at me and he was driving. He just turned halfway around and he said, that is exactly what she said. See, I never saw him again. I read in the paper later he became a chiropractor and went to Florida, moved down to Florida. But this is the reason that sex is not evil. You go out and this is what I did. I had a waterfall on the farm and I'd get down the waterfall and stand on ice and wash from the water. The shower was coming from the rock above, stood under a shower, a waterfall, and got washed. Never bothered me. I was always in good health. Never built a fire except to cook food in the winter.

vid2-51:03

I just throw a blanket around. I'd sit there and read half of the day and the night reading Blavatsky book or somebody's book, anything. Focus your mind back in, get your mind thinking along those lines. Yeah. Is fire walking explainable by the same Tmobile? Fire walking is explained by the same thing as this holding your mind a certain way. This is how that's done. In other words, you will feel you can do it. And if you push through and do it once, you'll be able to do it all the time. There was a fellow in up in Ohio that used to fire, walk on a fire. And we had him down to the farm one time to give a talk. And I was curious. I said, what state of mind are you in when you walk on that fire? And he said, he laughed. He said, I wasn't in any state of mind, I was drunk, but you got to pick this up. He was indifferent. He was totally indifferent. See? But since then though he doesn't get drunk. He can walk on it. And sometimes, what was he? He does these tricks where he lays on the bed of spikes and has somebody put weights on him and stuff. They don't touch him.

Speaker 5

vid2-52:25

Is the energy that you use sexually, the same energy that you use creatively, such as an art

vid2-52:31

Or something, if you're using it in the art, are I kind of think that some of the art I've seen, if it was done from sexual energy, they must've been very degraded sexually. I've never seen too much good art. They get away with it. They call it surrealism.

Speaker 5

vid2-52:51

Well, what I was thinking of is if you're using that energy up, like when you're doing the section using an energy,

Speaker 1

vid2-52:59

And so if you turn that energy towards spiritually, then of course it's easier, right? So if you're using it creatively, because it's still energy, if you're using, you think it'd help the painting, you mean, right? Oh, that's possible. You could focus better. You could focus better.

Speaker 5

vid2-53:14

Is that taking away from the, is it taking away from the spiritual

Speaker 1

vid2-53:17

R: If you're using, no, I don't think there's a quantum that we say that you're going to lose. It's a quality. The mind changes, the brain changes. The body gets immune. There's immunities build up. And sometimes there's things happen, as you might call them miraculous. I've had things happen, say, wow, wonder how that happened? Glad it happened. But the mechanics, I couldn't explain.

Speaker 2

vid2-53:46

If sex will decrease your energy, what can you do to increase it?

Speaker 1

vid2-53:53

A&P Well, you exercise. Exercise will increase your energy like running a couple miles. You should keep your body healthy. You should keep your body healthy. Yeah.

Speaker 2

vid2-54:07

Are we all talking about the same energy here?

Speaker 1

vid2-54:10

I don't know. You've got Latin words for it that I can't translate.

Speaker 7

vid2-54:14

I like to ask you if there is another mention to it in life, why there is so much way with the daily life once there is so many people who were so much involved in all the things that try to find that older

Speaker 1

vid2-54:32

Dimension. I don't quite understand you. Do you mean why are people trying to get ahead

Speaker 7

vid2-54:42

If there is another dimension, why there's so much obstacles, such a waste of

Speaker 1

vid2-54:51

Why all so much? What? Obstacles? Obstacles. I don't know. I agree.

R: This is like being trapped in a rat's nest. Yeah. Yeah. This is, no, I can't see anything beautiful about it. I can't see, sure. I've seen my wife's babies born and they're very beautiful. But these are unfortunate. A little beings brought into a rat's nest. They're going to run into all hell. It's going to break loose in their life. Everybody goes through hell. Why? This isn't a place to be? And I think possibly some of this negative hell that visits this is almost a prod to get 'em to think about. Nobody knows there's life after death. They may say they believe it, but believing is talking to yourself and trying to convince yourself, knowing it as something else. Knowing means you've got to walk across and back.

Speaker 7

vid2-55:55

And another question, do you use a dream to have a better understanding of what you call the absolute self?

Speaker 1

vid2-56:05

A dream?

Speaker 7

vid2-56:05

Yeah. How dreams useful?

Speaker 1

vid2-56:11

R: No, I can't say that. I mean, I would be suspicious. A dream can't be proven. In fact, if I dreamed a perfect dream about what I visited and hadn't already known that it was a mirror. In other words, if a person dreams that they've visited the absolute and they give you a definition, there's no guarantee at all that that's related at all. Because first of all, your head and the entities that are really trying to touch your energy, well sometimes give you visions as people had visions and they thought it was coming from heaven. And I'll give you an example. June of Ark, we used to read about Joan of Arc in history in a Catholic history. And she could almost perform little miracles. And yet she had a miserable time. They burned her to death. See? So my guess is that you don't have to take risks just to find the real answer. And you don't want to delude yourself with the interpretation of dreams either. It's nice if they prove themselves, but to second guess them. See, I maintain that when you get into this few feet, you start to realize that you're on the track. Things will come to you. You'll get hunches and there'll be hunches that you can try. And if they don't work, you can put them aside. But invariably they'll try. I think that there's forces work with you, but you have to show enough determination that you're not going to flunk out once you start.

Speaker 5

vid2-57:59

Do you believe that someone could follow their hunches and end up being misled by people's spirit?

R: Well, it's possible. You can follow your hunches anytime. It'd be wrong. I don't say your hunches are right. This is one of the things, correcting the intuition. We do not discover wisdom with logic. Logic will not bring you wisdom. Intuition is the faculty. One. Faculty we have can do with abstract condit.

=== File vid3 ===
Time: 53 minutes

vid3-00:01

R: And that can't be described. See? Yes. Can't logic give you a jumping off point, so to speak? Common sense I'd say would Sure You don't, don't do foolish things, and there's a lot of foolish things people do in this. It's just like a lot of people like to tie vegetarianism with it. That's all right if they want to do that, but that verges on asceticism. The only thing is that the bad thing about eating meat is that today you don't know where it's been. I heard does he go out in Wisconsin that's going into making damer burgers? So be careful.

Speaker 2

vid3-00:48

Don't you feel that like an attempt to be a vegetarian is an effort to act compassionately

Speaker 1

vid3-00:54

R: Towards other living things? You can tie it together if you wish, but I think the main reason you do it if you're philosophic, is you do it to clear up your brain, your mind, so to speak, so that you can think better. You do things to, I understand that people that eat meat don't have the patience to think along certain lines that a vegetarian has, and I am not arguing with that. See,

Speaker 2

vid3-01:25

Don't you think that there's a spiritual feeling to know that you're not behaving violently towards other living things?

R: No. No.

Q. You don't think that?

vid3-01:35

R: No. There's nothing spiritual about nut killing. There's nothing spiritual about nut killing. Is it possible to act compassionately then and live? We should shoot the cat because it kills the mouse.

Q. ... a bourgeois pig ...

R: huh?

Speaker 2

vid3-01:55

Can you act compassionately and choose to live as a bourgeois pig or as someone who's totally consumptive without any awareness of what their consumption does to other people who have to sacrifice to provide the pigs today?

Speaker 1

vid3-02:07

R: I don't know. Everybody in this world is a bourgeois pig then, because we take a piece out of somebody every day and you people are all studying for a profession to learn how to clip people for enormous amounts of money. See? See? So is that a bourgeois pig? In other words, what's worse taken to an extreme? Yeah, sure. Huh?

Speaker 3

vid3-02:34

Why? I really can't hear why

Speaker 1

vid3-02:42

Difference? Passivity. Passivity. Be passive. Passive. That's the way you should feel. You're a woman. Women should be passive. Men should be active. They make good wives, huh? Oh, women love to suffer. A lot of 'em are masochists. Huh? You don't like to suffer. Well, you got to get tough. You got to get tough.

R: No, no. What I am saying about this business of killing, if you've got rats running around your house and they bite one of your children, he is, but get a disease. See? So we can't weigh everything in terms of killing. I think there was a biblical quotation on that too, that there was no objection to killing the fish. For instance, they were a nice little fish. Why should Christ went out and brought in a bunch of fish and ate them? Maybe he could eat cornmeal or something. See, but the idea is that we do not kill - God kills.

vid3-04:06

We do not kill. We're damn lucky to do anything with stuff is just thrown in front of us every day and we react the best we can. But I'm saying to get down and say, to make a law that you can't kill this or that, or one time you could only kill ones with a cloven hoofs perfectly. All right. Ones with a horse hoof. Don't kill 'em. See, this don't make any sense, and yet we kill each other. Don't kid yourself about brutality. The human race is the most brutal killer on the face of the earth, and he maybe has to do it to survive the

Q. To refine people,

R: huh?

Q. Then he doesn't try to refine people. Refine.

R: Refinement is a definition that you have to, you're picking for yourself. All of us don't know refinement. Some guy might be covered over with ulcers or chancres or God knows what, but he still may be a spiritual person. Holy people are not beautiful. They paint pictures with halos around them, but they may have been very ugly. See, they may not have been refined. See, in other words what you're saying, why can't we be nice? What do you mean by nice? Nothing's nice. We

Speaker 3

vid3-05:34

Develop humanity by defining, by being most sensitive.

Speaker 1

vid3-05:41

R: People who are refined are looked upon as potential victims by most other people. If you're kind, you'll be exploited. So inside the school and defining human being, that beauty, the human being, that's a talk to your spiritual trait because of the simple fact that you're defining it in advance. You're defining something you don't have yet as being beautiful and spiritual and all this sort of thing. You don't know what that type of behavior will take you, especially when it seems like the people that make the greatest strides are they suffer the most because they're egos. It takes a tremendous egos. You've got a little ego there. You think you're a legislator for refinement, want everybody to be nice according to some God knows what formula, but isn't one of the principal

Speaker 2

vid3-06:40

The fundamental. If you're going to achieve enlightenment and you achieve a oneness of things, things you realize, things are interdependent, things are infuse that you as a person and what you do, you're connected with everything else. You can only

vid3-06:58

R: Pick that up in nice stories. The only thing that you become is God, and it matters whether this place is 10 feet in manure. Those guys that walk through that or fight through that are the ones that reach someplace and those that want to just say, let's dress up the earth because it's got manure all over it. See, people aren't nice. That part doesn't matter. I mean, there is no formula for this that requires us to change our human behavior. In other words, sure. I'll say in some regards, something will accelerate our spiritual growth, but being nice to the neighbor or being nice to the little animals or painting pretty pictures. This is really maybe a hindrance because it's a business of playing that by being nice, you're not going to be an animal. We're going to rise above the animals with all this niceness. Always,

Speaker 3

vid3-08:13

Always niceness to be cruel human. I can't hear you too much. I'm sorry. Cruel. Another human being to be cruel to another human being. I think it's to watch cruel. How about another animal? Yes, he, first he would,

vid3-08:53

R: We got pets, we got cats and dogs, and those dogs are killers and those cats are killers. And then we're trying to tell ourselves we shouldn't kill anything because we're afflicted with attacks by viruses and everything. This is a dog eat dog society. But it's so,

Speaker 3

vid3-09:13

And I think that we had 6 million in the most evil, most vicious way, and here is the pistol, and I don't know how people don't associate things that humanity already condemned because we condemned azi. Yet the people are able to create the same kind of whether it's against one individual or a group of people, and I think the religion and the movement is to prevent the recurrence of the watch, how they wind up,

Speaker 1

vid3-10:05

R: Watch how those beautiful religions wind up. Isn't the bloodiest wars on this planet were in ancient times were fought by religious people. The crusades, for instance, sent out children to be butchered, so God changed his mind. This was stupidity because they didn't really know what God wanted.

Speaker 4

vid3-10:26

But you used the Bible before. What

Speaker 1

vid3-10:28

About the verse that says God is love? Or do you I don't send it in. Maybe somebody else send it in. Just have beautiful babies and be happy. Yeah.

Speaker 5

vid3-10:50

Might you consider, however, that in some circumstances that engaging in damage to other other mentalities could be a distraction and a waste of energy, and on that basis, you should refrain or avoid from engaging in activity like

Speaker 1

vid3-11:13

R: That how you do it when nations are doing it. See, this is a whole thing.

Speaker 5

vid3-11:19

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen. What I'm saying is should we refrain from activity like that?

R: Because we're not doing this. This is nonsense. We're not crowding the ozone layer. This is the human races doing it. That's what I'm saying. It happens. Yes, but are you going to change it with your talk? You think your talk is going to change that or my talk is going to change it? Are you think that the happiness is going to give you spiritual?

Q. We're talking about spiritual enlightenment now, not politics.

R: Well, you can't be talking about spiritual enlightenment. You don't know what it is. You don't know whether planting carrots or killing rabbits is going to take you to heaven. I'm not talking about that.

Speaker 5

vid3-11:57

I'm talking about, you talked about saving energy for yourself because energy needed to go beyond. As you have said, you have said that energy is required and some things, like you said, sex for example, and other activities waste our energy. And for those reasons, we should not engage in things which waste our energy because we need that energy to go beyond. As you said,

Speaker 1

vid3-12:19

If you did everything that you thought might waste your energy, you would atrophy in one position.

R: This is silly. You're trying to instruct the world. This is a mad house. This is a mad house. You might as well relax. We're trying to do something. Find a definition of why this is a mad house. Not I'm saying to one person, if you want to get ahead, then you watch your energy. I'm not saying to the masses they can do what they please, but because the simple fact, I know that there's no benefit. Humanity will not benefit from me telling them to do something when they are programmed for a toboggan ride downhill. See, what

Speaker 5

vid3-13:08

You're saying is you can't generalize and say that's true of everybody, but

Speaker 1

vid3-13:13

R: It might be true of individual. I really can't see any point in how you're equating a esoteric experience with doing something nice. That's all. Because we can't define it. You can't define good or bad. This is one of the errors. Huh?

Speaker 5

vid3-13:32

I wasn't talking about good or bad. I was talking about conserving energy and waste energy.

Speaker 1

vid3-13:36

R: Yeah, but I mean you wove that around there because you still wanted to bring out your point of not ruining the environment. That's what your main point was.

Q. That wasn't my main point. My main point is wasting energy and yeah, what do you have?

Q. Can women be enlightened?

R: Huh?

Q Can women be enlightened?

R: Yes. Yes. Enlightenment final.

R: Yes, yes. Once then you're assert, you know that what will happen when you die. That's definite and final no matter what you do with your life. But of course, once this happens, you won't be too eager to do anything. Well, death is constant. Huh? Death is constant. There's always present life. Well, I'm asking. Well, there's always somebody dying, if that's what you mean.

Speaker 4

vid3-14:23

Q. Is it enlightenment, a change, a consciousness?

Speaker 1

vid3-14:26

R: Well, I wouldn't say a change. It's a realization that before this there was error and now there's nothing but fact left. Huh? Are you there? No energy left once you away?

vid3-14:42

R: I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say it's a different form. You don't have a body. We talk about energy. We're talking about kinetic energy, I presume. See that isn't there. You can think and it'll happen from the other side. This is one thing. First thing I did was to see what I could do and all I had to do was think about it and it would appear. So it was a different type of energy has to be after your enlightenment experience. The first thing you did was see what you could do. No, no, not after my enlightenment. In the period that what I, across whatever I wanted to see, I could see. So it was basically a discovery. Yes. Sure, sure. I had no, you can't have precon. This is the trouble. The reason people are not getting enlightened is because religion, all these religions are telling people to believe you got it made. Just believe you got it. Made nonsense. They haven't found out anything. See, believe me, I've stuck my nose very deeply into the Christian religion,

Speaker 6

vid3-15:55

Q. Sir, out of body experiences, right? Is that one way of trying to find, enlightenment it that way?

vid3-16:03

R: Well, I'll say, I'll tell you, that's a good start. That's a very good start because it's very similar to that. Only thing is that out of the body experiences, that it's basically a astral body. It's an astral body that crosses, but it shows the indestructibility of the human being because in that aral body, nothing can bother them. Nothing can harm them. Although I have read things by KY and a few other people who said, you have to be careful that there are entities that can attack you in Midflight or something like that. But have you read the fellow that wrote Life After Life, moody, what is his name?

vid3-16:46

Q. Moody. Moody. Raymond Moody.

R: Yeah. He was studied cases. The reason he wrote the book was because it happened to him. He's a medical doctor, I think maybe a psychiatrist, and I think he was on one of these talk shows in which they interviewed a bunch of people that had died and returned. And I thought it was very interesting. Of course, moody didn't have too much to say except that he had been studying this stuff himself. But one fellow had fell out an airplane about a thousand feet or so, and landed on his head, survived it, survived it, and they was asking him how he reacted to it and had to rebuild his face. Bones crushed in his face.

vid3-17:38

R: But they had several people, truck drivers, several truck drivers who had been in accidents, but their stories were rather consistent that there's a different, if you want to take a hundred cases of people who were killed and brought back, you'll have five or 10 categories. One of 'em is the tunnel of light. And I've run into people that said they found themselves in a tunnel and they'd see a light in the distance. And when he got through the tunnel, then of course there was a figure there, which they interpreted to be Jesus Christ or their father or a dead relative waiting for them. But they seem to fall into categories. I've read hundreds of cases of people that were knocked out and saw it went through this tunnel of light. Then there's others that wind up in the middle of a field someplace a beautiful field, and somebody walks up to 'em and tells 'em, come on, we're going to go from here to someplace else.

Speaker 6

vid3-18:47

R: What happens though, when you're sleeping, say when you're sleeping or in, and you see yourself outside of your body, kind, aware that you're in your body or that your body's there, but point of view is from a different place

vid3-19:02

In that kind of stuff is that you'll find people, if you look for 'em that have been in car wrecks and stuff, have been pronounced dead practically, and then they come back and they tell you this is what they saw from the ceiling. They watch their own operation and stuff.

vid3-19:20

There's a lot of literature to the fact that you don't have to have a near death experience that by accident or training, this can happen in a sleep state in

vid3-19:31

Fairly unquote routine. Well, you got to determine between what is a dream and the person that's telling the story. You can't determine that because if somebody's always going to say, I don't believe you, I don't believe, believe that you just dreamed it. It was a very, very compelling dream. See, whereas the way you can prove it is if like moody, if he went out of his body and headed for Washington dc he was from down here someplace, Alabama or somewhere below here, he goes up. But when he first went out the window, he recognized people on the street and could name them. See, now that means that his eyes, his eyeballs is going with him. See what I mean? On the other hand, if you say, well, I dreamt that my body was out of the bed or in a corner or something like that, if something happened, the spirit did something or somebody saw the spirit besides yourself, then you got something validated. This is what you have to go by because you know that people can dream and imagine a lot of stuff. What do you believe that that is not

Speaker 6

vid3-20:41

Q. Experience when you're in, what would you try and find things? If you think maybe that's a possible state that you can try and find a

vid3-20:52

R: Life in, what would you try to do or what you try to be aware of? Well, once you go to sleep, you can't do anything. I mean, I think it'd be very difficult to summon your will once you go to sleep dream, huh? Well, you don't meditate. We're talking about the consciousness. And once you're asleep and you have a dream, if you can alter that dream with the sleeping body, then you're not out of your body. And even if you see it, if you see it and don't try to order it, you still don't know it's your buddy. You might just dream that that be part of a dream. The thing is that you have to have some validation that has to be critical enough, and that's the reason that they caught it. They look for death experiences who valid enough to

Speaker 6

vid3-21:41

Q. You and you wanted to try and see how can you reach this state and what you're supposed to learn from. What do you think you would go for or try and be not aware

vid3-21:54

R: Of, but look out for? In other words, you're thinking, how could you amplify that and maybe make something out of it? That what you mean?

vid3-22:02

Yeah. Well, I think you could think about it, but I don't think that you could do it. I just don't think that you can change a dream. The danger, of course, is that you might even develop more complex dreams. It would be more convincing and still more convincing. But you see the reason, one thing about it is I think that once you die, once there's absolutely no consciousness. Then you're not dreaming, and they can, I think, actually monitor the sleeping person until when they start dreaming, and that could be really checked. It could put a wire you up and check to see if there's sometimes the eye movement tips 'em off that they're dreaming. See a little flutter on the eyes. So if you're dreaming, then it's not valid, but I know what you're thinking. How could we transfer this into a genuine total experience and no, understand what the human soul is. See, I've never heard of it coming about that way. I thought meditation. Well, I think meditation. But see, the thing is, again, controlling meditation. The minds have to wonder under meditation. See, and it is just like this idea, this concept of holiness or sweetness or niceness. That's an ego trip. That's an ego trip, and that's a barrier. That's all. That's a barrier to it. And so consequently, what we're doing is struggling for sledgehammers to knock us out of this body so that we can know that we're out of the body, know that the body's unconscious, not dreaming at the point of death, in fact.

Speaker 2

vid3-24:01

So would you consider the experience of astral projection to be helpful or a hindrance if it's achieved?

R: Well, I'll tell you one thing. It shows that you're not just the body. There is something beside the body here. So there's an ability, and that's the reason I think the spurs is concocted these different realms. If maybe they're true. That's the astral dimension. The astral body takes you through the astral dimension, but you're not any smarter when you come back. And then there's a causal dimension that people get into. And the things that you can do there is you can do about anything you want to do. Yeah,

Speaker 7

vid3-24:47

Q. Be smart when you come back. Isn't, life isn't enlighten.

Speaker 1

vid3-24:53

R: I mean, if I as discovering facts? No, not facts. Not facts. Just realization. Just a realization of what you really are. Now I can tell you what you discover. That's the reason I made this thing up here. The human soul is in that. I drew that circle. It looks like a crayon, but it's the best way I can figure. The human soul doesn't die, but it enters a larger soul. It enters a larger soul. And you don't have, you're not disillusioned by any chance that you own the place when you get there. See what I mean? But this is the equivalent. We can use the word God. It's rather loosely because no one shows up and says, I'm God. But you enter a larger soul dimension and within that realm you have power and activity. But what goes on after that? I didn't say that long. See, discovering our soul merges with another soul, which we call God

Speaker 7

vid3-26:03

By talking about leaves. Again, some leaves take form of a vision. Describe it as if it's something that you are sense. And how would you consider that? I mean, you said

vid3-26:20

R: You should keep a tablet besides your bed and write every dream down is every detail that you're can think of. You'll be surprised what you're working at nighttime too.

Speaker 7

vid3-26:30

Well, I mean something to pick the form of the vision, and some of these visions would describe facts

vid3-26:37

R: Exactly the way they happened. Sure. As if it's a graphic picture.

Speaker 7

vid3-26:42

What would be your explanation?

vid3-26:45

R: I was talking earlier about synchronicity. These things start to happen when you get interested in esoteric philosophy and go after, pledge yourself to the truth. You'll get things that are real. They're not nightmares. See what I mean? You'll get some real views. But the best way, and I used to do this, I wrote down all my dreams. The only thing that ever came of the years and years I spent writing down my dreams was that I saw them planting a flag on the moon before they did it. I have it still in the little notebook on these stenographic notebooks, a spiral wire through it.

vid3-27:23

And it happened pretty much the way, of course, there was no people, I didn't recognize that. People just like I saw that people do this, but it wasn't a revelation. It was just a dream. I don't say it was a spiritual experience, just a dream, but it could be a coincidence. See, and that's synchronicity. That's what they call synchronicity. But see, I maintain that you can use this synchronicity. You can cause things to happen. It's not going to have any benefit for your salvation or spiritual gain. It's just that these things are possible. And I often think sometimes they're bait, they're bait, little talents. You want to play with the talent, see what you can see under while you're having this death experience or while you're dreaming and that kind of stuff. So some entities or something, throw some of this garbage in your head, entertain you and get you ego egotistical enough to go out and preach about it. See?

Speaker 4

vid3-28:21

So it ends up becoming a block. Paranormal powers could end up becoming a block.

vid3-28:26

R: I think they a bait. I think they can become a bait. Yeah. Because they don't, as you know how old I am, and I've been watching this stuff and making notes on it all my life and my dreams didn't give me an indication. I had a greater wisdom while I was dreaming, when I was awake. See? So if I'd had them when I was awake, I'd want to question it. What made me think that or what made me see it? Have you ever tried mentally to get

Speaker 8

vid3-28:58

Back to that state?

vid3-29:03

R: No. And yes, sometimes I try, but I mean, as far as making a career, I don't do anything with the purpose of The reason is if you go back through it, you go through hell again. You go through hell again to get there. And I'm close enough without going through hell.

Speaker 8

vid3-29:25

After that experience, your life was pretty clear and

vid3-29:27

Didn't, have you lost the faith years that you used to carry? Was that something you experienced?

R: No. There's an old, old, say before the experience. The mountains look like mountains and valleys look like valleys. But after the experience, the mountains are once more mountains than the valleys. There's a magic change in which the mountains disappear. All the things we consider facts disappear, but then when we wake up, here's the mountains back again, which were fiction under the experience. See, and that's the way it has to be. We're tied to this mental belief system. So the only thing that changes is your sense of purpose and also that knowledge that you've been there, so you have more certainty. Well, that's enough. That's enough. I went to get proof of permanence or life after death, and I found it. And of course I spent some time talking about it sometimes, but I don't have any, there's no mechanics that I want to get into on it. I believe the things that I'm advising, for instance, I don't tell people how live. I say, if you want to try to shoot for an enlightenment, you have to live a certain way. There's no two ways about it. I'm not saying everybody has to do that. Just people that say, I'm going a hundred percent.

vid3-30:56

R: Then you're starting to negate the physical body. Then the physical body holds your attention all the time. And if it ain't your physical body, it's somebody else's physical body, it's going to hold your attention. So you've got to be able to transcend that. That's all. And some people have said, well, once you can transcend and you don't need to pay attention to it, then it's alright to go ahead and indulge it. I'm a little bit suspicious of that too. Are you

Speaker 2

vid3-31:21

Recommending it?

vid3-31:22

R: Huh? Are you

Speaker 2

vid3-31:23

Recommending it?

vid3-31:24

R: Recommending what?

vid3-31:29

Sure. Why is the purpose of election you trying? Are you recommending the,

R: no, I don't know. This is a shot in the dark. This lecture is a shot in the dark. I know about Zen. I've experienced things in it and perhaps there's a lot of books on Zen, but there's stuff you don't get from the books, and that's the action. And so I'm just furnishing information. That's all. Does it take particularly strong physical sobriety in order to withstand this kind of experience? Again, I think you should be healthy. Yeah. I think you should be healthy because I know that you go through hell. You'll go through hell at times.

Speaker 7

vid3-32:11

What makes you feel so certain that you really went behind this realization that you are under? If you got this enlightment, what makes you believe that you went out body and came back in?

vid3-32:28

R: Well, I can't prove it to you. I know this right,

Speaker 7

vid3-32:33

But what makes you feel so serv?

Speaker 1

vid3-32:36

R: Well, because of the things I saw when I was there and the things that I could cause to be. First of all, I didn't want to do anything or see anything. I was just tremendously happy. And I thought, this is wonderful. See, and of course the things were going through, this is something that I observed in hindsight that my mind was with me. My physical memory was still with me. And this is important because if the mind, the brain is just a flaw of flesh, you go unconscious. There's no way we're getting your consciousness if it's locked into this flesh alone. So that's the reason I put the one circle inside the other. The human mind has to go across whole being has to be inside the soul of what we call God. We use that word God because we don't know, but we know we're encapsuled in something greater and we can only operate within its environments to say same as we can only operate in this place. That's the reason when people were talking about trying to change people. I think it's a waste of time because there's a bigger burden up ahead. And that's saving each man, saving themselves and not trying to say what the, trying to define the techniques or the things that we should avoid or do because we're created into a madhouse. This is a madhouse. There's nothing beautiful about it. And to try to make it beautiful is secondary to me. The only thing that I've ever seen that's beautiful is generate any negative.

vid3-34:21

R: How do you know it's negative? See all of this stuff, nobody kills. See, nobody is capable of defining negative or positive, the things that some one man is going to define as negative, another man considers as beautiful. It's saintly. See,

vid3-34:45

R: The thing is we don't define the same. That's the trouble. People on this earth do not define it. You can't get a common definition. See, I have a question about something. You said earlier. You said women were passive. What did you mean by that? Oh, that's terrible, isn't it? That women are passive? How did I know? I was asking What do you mean by passive? Well, you know what passive is? They're not aggressive. They play a smooth role instead of coming out fighting. See, they're not dominating. They're not supposed to be. Excuse me. We've got a generation coming up that they're not passive. I'll grant you that.

Speaker 3

vid3-35:34

I'm,

Speaker 6

vid3-35:38

I have never been accused of being passive in

vid3-35:44

My family who ever have been. And I know a lot of women that aren't passive, believe me, but they're not spiritual. Yes.

Speaker 9

vid3-36:02

All the processes seem so vague. And if they are, which that's what I see zen is, is you can't describe it. How did you start? How did you get into it? What was the first step

vid3-36:16

You took? You said you had a teacher.

R: Yes, I tried everything. Anything that had promise in it said that you can gain some insight into what happens after death. I tried it. That's all it was. Reading a book. If I was not eating meat, I quit eating meat. I became a vegetarian. See what got you on the

Speaker 9

vid3-36:40

Main line with

Speaker 1

vid3-36:41

Your teacher? An accident.

Speaker 10

vid3-36:44

An

vid3-36:45

Accident.

R: Yeah. I mean, I didn't have this when I was working with this teacher. He was up in Connecticut. I was in Seattle when this happened. The only thing was the man could transmit. That's something else. And I hope we don't get into trying to define that tonight. There's people can help you. In other words, that's the idea. Well,

Speaker 11

vid3-37:10

So you've been in Latin and you don't want to get to that state again. Don't want to get what you've been there and

Speaker 1

vid3-37:17

You don't want to go to the hell to get there again. I don't think I'd necessarily go through hell, but I know I'd go to the same place and I just decided to use the rest of my life up. And I believe this is a commodity that's so rare that if a person does experience it, they should try to find a few people. There's very few people that go this far. And my idea is to, I believe that this is the true humanity. The true humanity is the mother helps the child see. And we have to try to bring a better child into the earth than what we were a smarter child. A more aware, aware and things. But if you do that, if you could do that, well, then you're going to try to get the best situation for that child. And the same way with a man, the man sees that he's brought people into the earth to die. That's all just to die. There's no hope. There's no real proof. We can guess. We can hypnotize ourself with all those suggestions or finite them. See, call on a thousand saints for witnesses, but we know nothing and we die stupid. So when there's a chance that a person can be awake, this is what's more important.

Speaker 11

vid3-38:38

Why don't you want to be awake again if you've been below?

vid3-38:42

R: Well, I can't help it. I'm not going to live forever and I don't need to hurry. Not too far down the road. See, I'm not rushing it. I'm not real. You

Speaker 8

vid3-38:53

Know what it is?

Speaker 1

vid3-38:54

Yes.

Speaker 8

vid3-38:55

Do you choose to live?

Speaker 1

vid3-38:59

R: I don't choose to die. I mean, I'm not going to commit suicide. That's all.

Speaker 11

vid3-39:03

Q. You choose to live the way you're living.

vid3-39:06

R: Yeah, sure.

Speaker 11

vid3-39:08

Without pursuing enlightenment anymore.

Speaker 1

vid3-39:12

I don't have to pursue it. I have it. You have? I have it. Yeah. I know every second of the day. Well, if so, except when somebody's asked me questions. Yeah.

Speaker 4

vid3-39:26

You said people, most people don't see truth.

R: They try to change environment to suit their desires.

Speaker 1

vid3-39:32

They try to change each other too.

Speaker 4

vid3-39:35

Q. Is it possible that enlightenment is different for everyone because of their desires possible. When you do become enlighten,

vid3-39:45

R: The experience that they tell you about is all of 'em are different. Nobody does it the same. Nobody has it the same. Nobody has it identically the same. No, there's not one absolute enlightenment. That is true. There's only one absolute for the whole human race. There's only one absolute enlightenment. But the road, the hell they go through before is what is different. And that's because they're just different people in different places and whatever. It is not a stereotype. It's not a stereotype type of death.

Speaker 4

vid3-40:20

Q. I was wondering, after you come back, when you are enlightened, you merged with absolute soul. So when you come back, are you still merged with it or

vid3-40:29

R: You know you are. Yes. You know that this is where you were and where you are. The only thing is we're back in the picture show and I'm playing Clark Gable and somebody else is playing the bad guy. We got horses to ride and cattle round up. Yeah. Is

Speaker 11

vid3-40:48

Path that important,

Speaker 1

vid3-40:49

Huh?

Speaker 11

vid3-40:50

Q. You talked about celibacy. A lot of the Buddhists in Dallas writings say that they gather energy from sex. Is the path that important? Is it more the action versus it the intention of the action?

Speaker 1

vid3-41:03

I have never heard of anybody getting energy from sex except women. I mean, the women get the energy from the man. But I've never heard of a man getting energy from sex. I've seen him get skinny as rails and die of tuberculosis and everything else from sex. But I've never seen him get power. Huh? Off men. And they're like, that's bad, ain't it? You're sorry too. Oh, what was I going to say? I was going to say something I thought was important. It must not have been. Yeah.

Speaker 4

vid3-41:55

Q. Are Buddhism and Christianity mutually exclusive?

Speaker 1

vid3-41:59

R: What do you mean by exclusive?

Speaker 9

vid3-42:00

Q. In other words, do they contradict each other? Could a person be a Christian Buddhist, or is that an impossibility?

Speaker 1

vid3-42:07

R: Well, I don't know. I don't consider myself a Christian, a Buddhist or anything. Zen isn't Buddhism incidentally. No, no. Don't conflict that. There's books written called Title Zen Buddhism, but zen is not. The Japanese have a complete different system of zen. And in Japan, there are two systems of Zen. I used to know the names, I've forgotten them. But zen, it's a word that has just had the procedure has not appeared. The western world with a name of its own here. Maybe we can find a name to use that won't give this idea that it's something magical out of the, and don't get the idea that there're saints, Tibet's full of saints and that sort of thing. I had that when I was a kid. I always wanted to go to Tibet. I thought all those monks over there were real really wise. And I thought they, they'll have the answer. See? So what happens is that there's a lot of stories in the newspaper lately. They big, they found a bunch of monks in California, they got aids. So they're not very saintly. See? So did you read that in the paper? They're supposed to be celibate people. You can't, pretty hard to get AIDS if you're celibate. That's one thing. Ways, if you want to play it safe, why be celibate? You want to get aids, huh? Cut.

Speaker 9

vid3-43:38

You can get cut and get the aids by. So I mean, it's not,

vid3-43:42

R: What do you mean cut?

Speaker 9

vid3-43:44

You can have a cut on your hand and you can touch someone's saliva that has aids.

Speaker 1

vid3-43:49

Get it?

Speaker 9

vid3-43:50

I mean, you can.

Speaker 1

vid3-43:50

R: Yeah. Don't anybody cut their wrist tonight. It's not causing any panics. But what happened was somebody got ahold of the ambassador from Tibet and said, what's happened here? This monk got aids. And he said, if he's got aids, look up the head monk. He's the one that's spreading it. So he's talking of a lifestyle in Tibet. So my childhood, or young man, as a young man thinking of wanting to go to Tibet, something sacred, they're not necessarily sacred. They're human like everybody else. And incidentally, that also was given as an excuse by some of the generals in China for massacring, the monks in Tibet. They massacred a bunch of 'em, and they claimed the reason they massacred 'em is they were homosexual. And of course that was not an anti-religion. That was an anti hygienic law passed by that Chinese, they don't tolerate in their own population, supposedly. See,

Speaker 4

vid3-44:59

Q. So zen and Buddhism are not the same?

Speaker 1

vid3-45:01

R: No, no, I don't believe. Don't believe in endorsing an, and that's the reason that I try to choose my words real carefully. We do things according to a procedure. And when I say it helps, if you're celibate, that helps in a lot of things. There used to be the athletes and the prize fighters or celibate, nor to win a battle in a fight. They kept their energy. They knew it. They didn't have to be proven to them. They saw they could fight better when they had their strength. I'm just doing, but this is not any indoctrination on my part from any Oriental group. The man that I studied under, it was in this country. He studied under a teacher that had been in, not India, but China. China or Japan. I didn't care about that. What I listened to was the man's words. And I found out that he spoke the truth and that was good enough for me.

vid3-46:03

R: And he said, things can happen according to a formula. And they happened according to the formula. See? And that was also good enough. See? But I am almost averse to reading books and Buddhism and zen anymore because it's full of, what do you call? There are people that just get in and they pretend they're something and they go out preaching, get enough people to build a temple for them, and they locate in the temple and raise a few thousand dollars. And that's the way they live. See? Do you think that's because the real thing is difficult and they're trying to sell something that's easy? Well, I think this is in all religions. I'll give you an example. I was in the Catholic monastery and I quit. I got out because saw, I didn't, the stuff that they were putting forth, I didn't buy it, that's all.

vid3-47:03

R: I don't believe that the Pope's infallible and things like that. They just go too far with making claims. So I dropped out and years later I ran into one of the priests, and I was kidding him. And I said, and I'm going down in the south someplace, Alabama or Texas or someplace and start up another religion. I was joking with him. I was just tormenting him. See? And he was serious. He said, you'll never get away with it. We're too deeply entrenched. So he was figuring business figures. See, he was talking about business, how deeply you get entrenched. They can't run you out of business. Strangely enough. They're going out business,

Speaker 10

vid3-47:46

R: Their monasteries are closing down, the convents are closing down. One of the boys here took a ride up with me to the seminary where I studied to be a priest. It's empty. And at one time had 300 at a time, 300 guys working. That was right above Pittsburgh. Butler, pa, Herman, PA is five miles from Butler. That's where it was. They're empty all over the country. So we're not getting any more spiritual, I think we're getting more pregnant.

Speaker 10

vid3-48:16

Q. What about the threefold path of Buddhism, though? You talked about that a lot.

Speaker 1

vid3-48:20

R: What about the threefold path? What is it? Huh? What is the threefold path? I thought it was a fourfold path, wasn't it? It was. No, you chopped it down because we're running out of time. Well, I'll tell you what, I know what you're talking about. You're talking about this, the principles of No, you tell me.

Speaker 7

vid3-48:52

I thought about the boot of the DER and the saying it.

Speaker 1

vid3-48:55

R: I thought you were talking about the four principles that was needed. No, that was the nine. There's nothing. Well, you give me four of 'em and I'll be satisfied.

Speaker 2

vid3-49:05

The

Speaker 1

vid3-49:05

R: Way the truth and the light. That's biblical as well. Yeah. The buddha and the dharma and the sangha is saying it are the same as the way the truth and the light. It's almost synonymous what we're trying to

Speaker 8

vid3-49:16

Do in our awkward way. One to mention the group here at NC State University. I forgot my initial introduction to tell you all that. We meet every week on Wednesday nights at seven 30 and room 3 45 girls and the group, we talk about all these same things every week. So we need the norm.

Speaker 1

vid3-49:42

Oh, this is already open. They're bringing it down. Did they bucket? Want to mention, Hey,

Speaker 8

vid3-49:50

If you want to talk about Mr. Rose many Mr. Rose's writings and writings of his organization, you got a minute, you want to stop by and check them out?

Speaker 1

vid3-50:05

R: I can't. Doesn't me give you the minute by minute or day by day methods of things. But in the truth of matter is, I don't think there's a very believe that there's a very small percentage of people that's interested. I think religion is easy, but a real struggle with yourself to reach a thing by yourself, it's very difficult. So there's a very small percentage of the people, but so I'm not disappointed if people don't what it is there's to do anything spiritual in the spiritual sense, immediately a causes antagonism. And that's the animal body is fighting back. "Don't block me." Don't block the animal body saying, Hey, that may not be true. Or we can do this and that too. See? Yeah. So I've realized that occasionally somebody comes along and says, I know what you're talking about. And that's the reward. So I'm not disappointed if I don't get people that say they know what I'm talking about. It'd be nice, but that's the first truth I have to live with. See, I can talk, but that doesn't mean that it's going. We'll get that.

Speaker 10

vid3-51:29

We'll get

Speaker 1

vid3-51:29

That. Yeah.

Speaker 10

vid3-51:45

Thank

Speaker 1

vid3-51:46

You. Blessings only on Sunday night. Glad you all came. Thank you very much.

Speaker 9

vid3-52:34

I read earlier,

Speaker 1

vid3-52:47

R: 500 years ago, people dos go out and own corn. They survive. But today, why it? It's more important than that to just education's necessary, in other words. But I believe that you can simultaneously, the trouble is that the educational system is so tied up that you don't have time. These damned electives that they foresaw and you takes up a lot of your time. If you're studying math or something like that, it will only take a few hours a day to catch up with your lessons. You can't learn any faster than that. So then you could devote that time to something that you really want to do besides getting into the rat race. And so that's my idea. And I believe that there are some people that just like this fellow.

=== File vid4 blank ===
Time:

VOB 4 is about 30 min but blank

== Footnotes ==

== End ==

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